Shishio Makoto vs Yukishiro Enishi

[Id]

Who would win the fight Enishi or Shishio. (this is of course if Shisio was still alive and if Enishi would confront Shishio by himself for the fresh 15-20 min he could last before Shishio becomes extra crispy.)

My vote goes for Shisio he is just Evil, Strong, and skilled. (Took Down Aioshi, Satio, & Sanosuke in one fight)

[vagnard]

Shishio all the way...Enishi was a pussy who needed Tomoe's smile...His power comes from his motivation to destroy Battousai...he can't fight at the same level he did with Kenshin against other swordman. Kenshin had problems with him because his own doubts and because Enishi style was exclusively designed to defeat Hiten Mitsurugi.

Shishio has more strenght, power, cunning, experience...he trained the fastest swordman in the series: Soujiro...so he wouldn't overcomed by insanity nerves's speed.

He received of all main Hiten Mitsurugi attacks directly (even the vacumm hit of Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki) and had stamina to rise and continue the fight and even then still had the the power to destroy the floor with his ken ki...and has Kenshin to his mercy....Shishio was defeated by his own weakness not by Kenshin...and he had to fight many others guys too (Saito, Aoshi, Sanosuke) He won against Kenshin in the first round and could have killed him if it wasn't by his friends's interference.

About Kenshin condition against Shisho...Kenshin was in worst condition against Enishi...he barely could hold his sword anymore...after the battle against Shishio Kenshin was a shadow of his glorious past....like Megumi said...he was hurt..he even fought with bandages....and not only that..he had psychological disadvantage because his past with Tomoe.

Shishio only know about Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki thanks to Soujiro...Enishi had practically all information about Hiten Mitsurugi and still lost....the first hit of Amakakeru K.O him...unlike Shishio

[CABLE]

Shishio. x

[Chillin]

Shishio is stronger than Enishi. I don't feel like explaining why because vagnard already stated it in his first paragraph. Kenshin hit Shishio directly with the second hit of the Hirameki, although this caused Shishio to go past his limits and eventually die he still took the hit. Kenshin hit Enishi with the first hit (albeit it was an improved version of the original) of the Hirameki. As a matter of fact he didn't even hit him so much as break Enishi's arm and sword with the sheer force of the swing. Enishi was done for after that.

[Id]

I was just rereading the Kenshin manga. (thanx boxtorrents) and was thinking about Shishio and Enishi fights. I dont think Enishi could beat Aioshi, Or Satio. Sōjirō could take him out let alone Shishio.

I think only Hiko can take down Shishio, and.......Hitokiri Battōsai with with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki.

Any how my ranking for kenshin based on Manga goes as this

1. Hiko Seijūrō XIII
2. Shishio Makoto/"Hitokiri Battōsai" with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki
3. Himura Kenshin/Saito Hajime
4. Shinomori Aoshi
5. Yukishiro Enishi/Seta Sōjirō

[iaido]

Originally Posted by demon_of_elru_id

I was just rereading the Kenshin manga. (thanx boxtorrents) and was thinking about Shishio and Enishi fights. I dont think Enishi could beat Aioshi, Or Satio. Sōjirō could take him out let alone Shishio.

I think only Hiko can take down Shishio, and.......Hitokiri Battōsai with with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki.

Any how my ranking for kenshin based on Manga goes as this

1. Hiko Seijūrō XIII
2. Shishio Makoto/"Hitokiri Battōsai" with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki
3. Himura Kenshin/Saito Hajime
4. Shinomori Aoshi
5. Yukishiro Enishi/Seta Sōjirō

My rankings are kinda the same. However, I would personally differentiate between Bakufu era Shishio and Meiji era Shishio as the latter is more of a physical phenomenon with adrenaline constantly pumping and so on. I think Hitokiri Battousai without the succession technique is greater than Bakufu era Shishio but under Meiji era Shishio. I would also personally rank Seta above the Hitokiri Battousai w/o Amakakeru... His genius, his speed, and his stealth surpass that of Himura any day.

[Ephemeral]

Originally Posted by demon_of_elru_id

My vote goes for Shishio he is just Evil, Strong, and skilled. (Took Down Aioshi, Satio, & Sanosuke in one fight)

And all three of those guys fought just before. Sano gets his hand broken, Saito gets slashed up all badly, and Aoshi took the Ougi. But still, I vote for Shishio. Kenshin didn't beat him with the Ougi but man, Enishi got his ass PUNKED! =o

But we all know Soujiro > All, why? Because he is the greatest character created.

^_^

[hjkou]

Originally Posted by vagnard

Shishio has more strenght, power, cunning, experience...he trained the fastest swordman in the series: Soujiro...

thats debateable.. if your accounting for kenshin using ARNH (which defeated soujiro ^^), even then i bet hiko is faster, even though we havent seen it.. hiko is just, lets just say.. 2kool4skool

Originally Posted by vagnard

He received of all main Hiten Mitsurugi attacks directly (even the vacumm hit of Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki) and had stamina to rise and continue the fight and even then still had the the power to destroy the floor with his ken ki...

it is true, even with a blunt sword the ARNH wouldve owned anyone, but.. you have to take into account kenshin was going in without intent to kill (personality trait, rather than skill levels) and if it was a normal katana, the vacuum hit wouldve ripped shishio open ;D

Originally Posted by vagnard

and has Kenshin to his mercy....Shishio was defeated by his own weakness not by Kenshin...

however he DID sort of pull this huge cheapshot on kenshin, sacrificing his own "love".. once again, personality trait rather than skill

Originally Posted by vagnard

and he had to fight many others guys too (Saito, Aoshi, Sanosuke) He won against Kenshin in the first round and could have killed him if it wasn't by his friends's interference.

saito had 2 cut legs, aoshi had just recovered from kenshins ARNH, sano was still wounded from his punchon battle, so they were all 2nd hand condition
also remember that kenshin had to go through aoshi, AND SOUJIRO, who is probably beyond aoshis or saitos skill level


sorry, just alot of things i felt i needed to clear up.. because the kenshin vs shishio battle is always underlooked :s

BACK TO TOPIC ^^

my vote for shishio, enishi is a bitch.. haha

[vagnard]

Originally Posted by hjkou

thats debateable.. if your accounting for kenshin using ARNH (which defeated soujiro ^^), even then i bet hiko is faster, even though we havent seen it.. hiko is just, lets just say.. 2kool4skool

Yes...but that was a technique speed...not base speed. Soujiro seemed to me more faster than Hiko. Kenshin could follow Hiko movements (Kenshin was totally exceeded in everything else: power, experience, skill, etc)

Originally Posted by hjkou

it is true, even with a blunt sword the ARNH wouldve owned anyone, but.. you have to take into account kenshin was going in without intent to kill (personality trait, rather than skill levels) and if it was a normal katana, the vacuum hit wouldve ripped shishio open ;D

Yes...but Kenshin "without intent to kill" and the "blunt sword" are part of Kenshin persona....Battosai doesn't exist more...so part of Kenshin weakness are his ideals...you can't separete them from the person....like Shishio's 15 minutes.

Even then...Saito fought Battousai many times in the past and survived. So probably his actual opponents are less careful with their defenses because they get confident by fact that Kenshin's sword hasn't edge and they become an easier target. In Saito-Kenshin match...Kenshin could cut his head with a real sword....but the same person in the past suvived many fights against Battousai.

Originally Posted by hjkou

however he DID sort of pull this huge cheapshot on kenshin, sacrificing his own "love".. once again, personality trait rather than skill

Well...but be a cunning fighter is too part of the overall skill...In the thread case Shishio could use Enishi's mental instability against him.

Originally Posted by hjkou

saito had 2 cut legs, aoshi had just recovered from kenshins ARNH, sano was still wounded from his punchon battle, so they were all 2nd hand condition
also remember that kenshin had to go through aoshi, AND SOUJIRO, who is probably beyond aoshis or saitos skill level

Yes... but Shishio vs Kenshin round 1 was an easy victory to Makoto. He could killed him if it wasn't for kenshin gumi's interference who gave time Kenshin to raise again and resist Shishio's last minutes.

Originally Posted by hjkou

sorry, just alot of things i felt i needed to clear up.. because the kenshin vs shishio battle is always underlooked :s

No problem XD...I believe Shishio was the stronger given the circumstances....if Kenshin had remained with Hiko and completed his training as Battousai during Tokugawa Era he had been the second most powerful in the series after his master.

Originally Posted by hjkou

my vote for shishio, enishi is a bitch.. haha

I totally agree with you XD

[hjkou]

good points ^^
i think they need to make a miniarc based on hiko..
i mean, who doesnt want to see him own every single char in kenshin without trying? haha

[BattousaiMS]

Enishi... he is stronger faster and more versetile then Shishio, who is slow and would have be chopped shushi if Kenshin was using a real sword.

[Id]

BattousaiMS... Enishi... he is stronger faster and more versatile then Shishio, who is slow and would have be chopped shushi if Kenshin was using a real sword.

You kidding right.

Hiko Seijūrō XIII>>Shishio Makoto/"Hitokiri Battōsai" with Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki >>>>>Himura Kenshin/Saito Hajime>>>>>>>>Shinomori Aoshi>>>>>Seta Sōjirō>Yukishiro Enishi.

Enishi Is an A class fighter. But Everyone else are gifted fighters. Aside from the fact that Enishi sacrifices defense for greater attack. That makes him an unplaced fighter.

Seta is faster. And more gifted then Kenshin. He developed on its own a technique that matches the ARNH. Plus he is overall faster than "Hitokiri Battōsai". But he does not take a fight serious which is probably the reason why he lost. I dont think there is anyone as fast as him in the whole series/manga.

"I act serious so people can take me serious" Kenshin.

[Inuyashamish]

shishio wouldnt even need his 15mts to destroy enishi. shishio is a much better swordsman than enishi was

[Delta Shell]

Enishi's style was dedicated to being the answer to Hiten Mitsurugi, yes on top of that he's a ridiculously powerful fighter, Kenshin got round this by using his head.

Shishio's a genius himself (he can counter any technique after seeing it once), physically speaking he's also a monster. It's true that Kenshin got hit's that would have been kills with a real sword (like Enishi, well having said that Enishi only fully countered Kuzu Ryu Sen after taking it on a few encounters) but anyway it's not that simple (kinda like Naruto).

As I said, Enishi's style was dedicated to the defeat of Hiten Mitsurugi, sure against any lower swordsman it doesn't matter he'd kill them anyway but in such a high tier it really does matter. Shishio doesn't fight like Kenshin I doubt the low stance would throw him off as much as it did Kenshin. So while Enishi may have been Kenshin's biggest threat (debateable) he wasn't the top fighter in the series (there's a few already listed by others that outrank him).

The only thing I can see happening in favour of Enishi is him pushing Shishio past his limits..if he can do that he might get a victory..Still I think Shishio is far too good a swordsman (and he's far too resiliant).

[pnoypridz]

imo shishio would win

[Gaaravision]

Originally Posted by hjkou

good points ^^
i think they need to make a miniarc based on hiko..
i mean, who doesnt want to see him own every single char in kenshin without trying? haha

Actually Watsuki wasn't allowed to use Hiko more than he did, by his editor, since, by his own words, Hiko is basically omnipotent in the RKverse. Like the RKverse's answer to Superman, if he'd decided to personally go end Shishio, you wouldn't see more than 1-2 chapters at most.

Which is a shame, since Hiko >>> all.


Anyways, I think alot of people are selling Enishi short. Enishi was about as fast as post-Kyoto Kenshin ("You are slightly better at speed, I'm slightly better at strength"). But, he can amp himself, using the Nerves of Insanity, to what looked like Soujiro-ish levels of speed. Enishi's Wattoujutsu is in many ways similar to Kenshin's HMR, that it has alot of technique's to deal with different situations, which is the pure opposite of Shishio's simplistic, yet effective style, with barely a few techniques. The problem with Shishio is that you can't really gauge his strength compared to the others, as Shishio never fought anyone at full strength. All the fighters he took on had sustained injuries in their fights, and were already tired.

Shishio is good, but like Enishi, he also had preptime, seeing alot of Kenshin's moves before they fought. And Enishi has been able to stop Kenshin's two most powerful techniques, something Shishio wasn't able to do. And the Ama Kakeru Ryu no Hirameki that defeated Enishi was noted as being vastly different from how the technique had been executed before (Kenshin had finally made peace with Tomoe's death, and thus was able to perform the technique "perfectly", or at least much better than in the past).

If Enishi amps his speed using Nerves of Insanity I see him outlasting Shishio, unless Shishio can somehow exploit his sonic weakness (if he can hit Enishi with Guren Kaina for example, but that might be too hard at the speeds Enishi is moving at).

[BakaKage]

It is difficult to to match these two fighters without comparing their fights with kenshin but we should just look at their own matchup without getting kenshin involved as much as possible. Both fights are entirely different situations.

Shisiho has 3 secret swords. insane reaction time (watching out for the left foot, knocking aoshi's sword from his hand when he started his kaiten kenbu, blocking zero shiki). Though he only has 15 minutes his body is indestructible within that period of time.
Enishi on the other hand has 50,000 thousand different kinds of moves (exaggerating ) that all revolve in air and jumping attacks with multiple and fast sword swings. Extremly fast sword swings seeing as he can block all 9 strikes of the Ku Zu Ryusen. somewhat fast in terms of speed. Nerves of insanity.
onto the fight...
In the beginning of the fight. Simple Watou jutsu moves are mostly blocked by Shishio. Enishi is burned in some places but pretty much ok. Towards the mid-point of the fight Enishi uses his stronger moves because his simple ones are pretty much predicted by Shishio. Catches Shishio open for a split second and attacks but Shishio still manages to parry his attack and grab him by the neck and uses Guren Kaina. Being the masochist that Enishi is he survives and becomes pissed and uses Nerves of Insanity. Every sense is he has is heightened and he is faster than he was before. He pummels Shishio with attacks but Shishio just won't go down. Shishio sensing he is about to lose if he doesn't do anything unleashes Kaga Tsuchi and makes the place (literally) an inferno. Enishi with his sense of touch at 10 times stronger dies of heat stroke.
there you have it according to my analysis. Shishio wins assuming all this happens within 15 minutes, or else...well you know.

[CABLE]

Remember how if Shishio sees a technique once it won't work again, well Enishi uses the same techniques over and over.

[Shishou]

OMG, wtf is this. If they only had animated Enishi outside the shitty OVA, you all wouldn't be claiming Shishio is better.


Shishio was the biggest puss of them all. He made Kenshin go through other opponents and tire/weaken himself before he would even bother.

Kenshin vs. Aoshi, quite a few cuts, blood loss, almost had his head cut off. Lets also remember Kenshins Ougi damages his body quite a bit.

Kenshin vs. Soujiro, Kenshin had to push his body to the limit to outspeed Soujiro.

Kenshin in the end beat Shishio. Shishio EASILY beat a Tired Saitoh, Sano, and Aoshi(who took the ougi), that is not impressive. This is the Kenshin who had gone through fights and tired himself out first.



Now lets look at Enishi. Nerves of Insanity made him damn near immune to pain, faster, and stronger than Kenshin. Saitoh mentioned none of them would have stood a chance against Enishi. But they were all ready, because they truely thought Kenshin was going to lose the battle, and step in to fight Enishi.


Enishi was no doubt, with Nerves of Insanity, Faster and Stronger than Shishio. He was stronger than Kenshin without Nerves of Insanity. Enishi also has a range advantage with his sword. If Enishi were to fight Shishio, at the very least, he would last until Shishio erupted in flames. But he wouldn't need to do that, he would simply overpower Shishio as Shishio blocked an attack and own the shit outta that Mummy Bastard.


Enishi could have finished off Kenshin during their fight, but he would start punching and kicking Kenshin and shit, out of anger. Because Enishi wanted him to SUFFER.




Without Nerves of Insanity, yes Shishio is better. I believe Saitoh said this. But once the Nerves of Insanity came out, Saitoh didn't believe even Kenshin could beat him. And Kenshin couldn't! Kenshin had to be a little cheap bitch and make Enishi destroy his ear drum and get bad Balance so Kenshin could beat him.

[BattousaiMS]

Enishi is stronger then Shishio. His Watōjutsu was at even with Hiten Mitsurugi. Compared to him Shishio was a joke who would have gotten killed by Kenshin if he had not used a Sakabato. Shioshio got always hit, if Kenshin was using a real katana he would have been long dead before ama kakyu no hira meki came along.