As painful as it is, a final nail must be placed...

[Jυstin]

... in the Uchiha fight.

Ok, now I know what you're thinking, "Not again ", but this needs to be settled before Uchiha civil war breaks out and wipes NF off the face of the planet

Ok, now, I know you Sasuke fans want him to be stronger than Itachi, I know, but the truth is... nothing shows even the slightest hint of this from their fight. It was staged, in Sasuke's favor, so it can't be taken into account, yet a large majority of Sasuke fans still deny this. After this thread, maybe they will realize that Sasuke still has a ways to go, but will pass Itachi, his ultimate benchmark, by the time the manga ends.

The following is a post posted by Nikushimi's very own Sensei, SS2 Vegito, on another board. I also have a post on the matter, so I will try to match them up with what they are trying to point out. His post says it much better than I ever could. So just... well, read these quotes, especially from SS2 Vegeto, and maybe you'll see what we Itachi supporters are trying to say.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Okay, I'm jumping in. It's been proven well enough that Itachi was a lot stronger than Sasuke, Susano'o or not.

For one, regardless of the cause, Zetsu stated that Itachi should have been much stronger. He called Sasuke's victory "unbelievable" and remarked that "it doesn't make any sense". He concluded that Itachi must have been badly wounded before Sasuke even arrived. There was obviously a very large difference in power between Itachi and Sasuke.

Furthermore, if Itachi's entire body were weakened by disease, not only his movement would be hindred, but his jutsu as well. Jutsu rely upon both body energy and mental/spiritual energy.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=30312

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=30314

Amaterasu:

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

I mean, couldn't have been cause of Kirin. At the least, Itachi would have tried to attack Sasuke during the many panels Sasuke took to prepare it, but Itachi just stood there. He was letting him pull it off. And before that, he didn't let Amaterasu completely reduce Sasuke to ash, which would have barred the chance of him using Snake Bulimia to re-spawn a new body from the old one.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Most importantly, however, Itachi had been pulling his punches the entire time. Take this for instance.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=49168

Itachi deliberately stopped Amaterasu. But half of Sasuke's body was gone - Itachi would not do that. His goal was to exhaust Sasuke, draw out Orochimaru, and die in battle, giving Sasuke the Mangekyo Sharingan and painting him as a hero. Itachi knew full well that that wasn't Sasuke. Yet he feigned ignorance and acted out his part. If he'd wanted to kill Sasuke, he could have continued Amaterasu - he was fully aware of Sasuke's escape.

Could have died many times:

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/01/

This page shows Sasuke saying he was almost killed more than once and Madara's words merely correct him and say that he could have(meaning on those multiple occasions Sasuke was mentioning, not just one occasion) if he had been serious.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

It wasn't just Susano'o that he'd been endangered by - Sasuke states that he came close to death many times.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=49447

"I came within an inch of dying dozens of times".

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31530

"He nearly killed me, any number of times..."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...772#post880772

"I was nearly killed, more than once..."


I've only found a couple of translations that didn't make it explicity clear that he was almost killed many times.

MS now included in being held back:

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

Sasuke then says that Itachi tried to kill him with Mangekyou(not Susano'o, but Mangekyou as a whole. In fact, in the next two panels on that page, it refers to the instances that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were used. Susano'o isn't even shown.)

This means, and shows, that Itachi could have killed Sasuke on multiple occasions, not including MS. MS is then mentioned after wards as the other means Itachi could have killed Sasuke with. These multiple occasions Sasuke could have been killed didn't include MS until the bottom half of the page, and the only MS jutsu that are referred to are Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, while Madara then says it was all to drive Sasuke into a corner for Susano'o to finish the job. So where you get that Susano'o is what was/ the only thing held back is beyond me.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Madara informs Sasuke that if Itachi were serious, he'd be dead. Sasuke protested that Itachi even attacked him with the Mangeyo Sharingan - he couldn't believe that Itachi didn't intend to kill him.

When he says this, the next panel specifically shows us Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=49447

Now here, HisshouBuraiKen again takes too many liberties at the expense of clarity, but every other translation has Madara giving this answer.

http://www.nbnakama.com/view/na401/&...uto_401_02.png

"He had already accounted for your speed and reaction times."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31530

"He attacked you with no more than he knew you could handle."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...772#post880772

"He'd taken your countermeasures into account."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31606

"He had taken your reactions into account."

It's stated by Madara that Itachi took Sasuke's ability to react into account and held back so that he could handle it, while using the Mangekyo Sharingan - specifically in regards to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

It was completely staged and in Itachi's control:

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

He had planned this for a while. I knew that Sasuke being weaker didn't matter. Itachi had seen that he'd grown enough from him testing Sasuke's limits by not giving Sasuke more than Sasuke himself could handle, and by that, was pulling his punches. He couldn't have done that if it were just Susano'o. That wasn't to push Sasuke, like what Madara said his holding back was for. Susano'o was only there to seal Orochimaru. Itachi held back in so much more, as, again, the purpose of it was to push Sasuke to his limits to release Orochimaru. Susano'o doesn't come into the picture until after all of that was accomplished, so if anything, Susano'o would be the last thing he'd held back. Even that was held back since it didn't attack Sasuke.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Likewise, it's stated that Itachi controlled the entire fight. Once again, the majority of translations are clear on this point.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaRet...&PhotoID=49449

"Itachi planned out every last detail of the fight, all for your sake."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31530

"Every part of that battle was planned out by Itachi from the very beginning."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...772#post880772

"On every level, it was a fight Itachi staged for your benefit".

[Jυstin]

And now for the second half, wrapping up the rest of this thread.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Susano'o does drain the user's life - but that wasn't the only thing that killed Itachi.

Here, Zetsu acknowledges the risk that Susano'o carries:

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaREt...&PhotoID=49241

Yet, moments later, Itachi coughs up blood, and Zetsu reacts as if he has no idea what's going on - it's treated differently from the side effects of Susano'o.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaREt...&PhotoID=49243

After the fight, he specifically blames this on Itachi's pre-existing affliction, which we now know to be his disease.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaREt...&PhotoID=49277

"He was hit by attacks he should've dodged easily, and kept coughing up blood all throughout the fight. Maybe he'd already been badly wounded before Sasuke even arrived?"

I don't know what you're talking about when you say that most translators agree that Itachi's movement was the only thing impared by his disease, because:

1. Itachi coughing up blood is pictured right there as Zetsu explains what seemed wrong with Itachi, and blames it on pre-existing injury.

2. Every other translation I've been able to find says the same thing:

http://www.nbnakama.com/view/na394/[NBST]_Naruto_394_06.png

"He was hit by an attack he should have been able to dodge and he coughed up blood several times through the fight. Perhaps Itachi had already sustained serious damage before the battle even began..."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27843

"He failed to dodge an attack he should have been able to dodge. Coughed up blood numerous times in mid-battle. Perhaps Itachi had already sustained serious damage before the battle even began."

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27847

"He got hit by a few attacks he should've been able to dodge, he vomited blood in the midst of the fight...it's possible that he already had some serious issues in the first place..."

The final nail in the coffin is this - Madara describing Itachi's disease in front of a big panel of - you guessed it - that same image of Itachi coughing up blood.

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

First off, about Itachi "stating" the difference, I'll be very blunt with you: Itachi lies.

Actions speak shit if you're referring to that fight cause it was all an act. The fight was staged in Sasuke's favor, with Itachi being said to be holding back by Madara and Zetsu which includes, but is not limited to, Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi.

There's also a reason they did a deconstruction of that fight AFTER Sasuke "wins fair and square cause of his superiority" cause it was neither fair and square nor was Sasuke a factor.

Itachi only said, and listen carefully, that Sasuke could not win without MS. He didn't say that Sasuke could, or would, win with it.

You're basically taking the statement, "All German Shepherds are dogs.", and using it to say, "All dogs are German Shepherds."

Stats disagree with them being even. Madara's statements disagree with you. Zetsu's statements disagree with you. The breakdown of that fight disagrees with you. Sasuke's recognition to the fact that it was all true disagrees with you. The manga in just, well, general, disagrees with you.

Realize that Sasuke only won against an Itachi who was deathly sick, throwing the fight, going blind and trying to lose, and even then, Itachi still could have killed him, had he been serious.

():

The knowledge of how and when he could have done so is absolutely moot, as there is no way to be able to tell. All we know is that Madara said it, and made no specifics, meaning he was just talking in general. Also could not be Susano'o, as Zetsu's and Madara's comments on that not being the true Itachi coexist, and Zetsu, having never seen Susano'o before, could not have been referring to that as "Itachi's true power".

So he had to use Susano'o, to seal Orochimaru, to finally kill Itachi.

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

Also, no - Jiraiya is not Itachi's equal. Itachi initially stated that if he and Jiraiya fought, they would "probably" kill each other, but the statement was contradicted afterwards. After their encounter, Kisame stated that he saw no reason to retreat and that Itachi's power should be enough. Itachi was exhuasted at the time, and it was Kisame who had warned him about his overuse of the Mangekyo Sharingan just before his retreat - but moments later, he's telling him that his power still should have been enough, and that his power eliminated any need to retreat. Itachi doesn't disagree - in fact, the reason he gives has nothing to do with Jiraiya - it's that, in keeping the future in mind, he needs to hurry and find a place to rest, since he'll have to be inactive for a while to recover. Jiraiya himself admited that it took everything he had just to distance them. Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya while wasted - enough for his Sharingan to deactivate after Amaterasu.

I'm not sure what else to really add in here. SS2 Vegeto pretty much covered it all. I just added in my quotes since it was also relevant to this topic... and since I should also use my own material.

That's pretty much it. Now that you've read this, take a few minutes to really digest this. There was really more to this fight that a lot of "Sasuke > Itachi" fans seem to ignore. This is meant to bring these points up to the light.

I hope you now see why Itachi was, and still is, superior to Sasuke, and just what it means to be Sasuke's benchmark, like Minato to Naruto. Sasuke isn't just gonna *snap* pass him with a MS upgrade. There was much more in that fight than MS that was held back.

Saying Sasuke > Itachi atm is actually a huge blow to Itachi and his own power, as Sasuke hasn't demonstrated skill on Itachi's level past the Uchiha fight. Simply using MS(irresponsibly, might I add), doesn't equate Sasuke to Itachi at all.

Thank you, and good night

[Jυstin]

Oh, and one last post by SS2 Vegeto on the subject:

Originally Posted by SS2 Vegeto View Post

The first bit - about Itachi needing to go all out to push Sasuke to his limits - is easily countered by the fact that Madara bothers to mention that Itachi took Sasuke's ability to react into account. Pointing out that Itachi took Sasuke's ability to react into account is pointless if it does not make any difference. If Itachi were figthing seriously, which is the very point Sasuke had tried to push in mentioning the Mangekyo Sharingan at all, then just acknowledging that Sasuke had the means to escape proves nothing - that scenario is entirely plausible whether or not Itachi wanted to kill him, and therefore pushes no point. Furthermore, we specifically see Itachi pulling his punches, with Amaterasu - I gave that example, and additionally, it's stated that Itachi orchestrated every part of that fight - if he planned to have Sasuke counter his jutsu, that means he knew about it, but chose not to act on that knowledge other than to actively pursue that end, which doesn't sound like fighting all-out to me. There's also the fact that the "true self" Sasuke saw was an illusion - the databook explicitly states it to be genjutsu. Sasuke failed to see through Itachi's regular genjutsu - forget about Tsukuyomi.

Zetsu's statements - I say to that what I always do. If it's an uncontested statement, you have no grounds to disregard it. Feeding readers information under the assumption that it will not mean anything to them defeats the point of providing them the information in the first place - they're not real people, they're lines on paper. They exist to express the intentions of the author.

That last bit, about Sasuke and the Mangekyo Sharingan - first of all, Itachi doesn't even say that it represents the exact gap between them, only that he doesn't stand a chance without it. So his argument is non-sequitur. Second, maybe if Sasuke didn't get way weaker first? He lost the Curse Seal, which could multiply his power ten fold, and Orochimaru before awakening the Mangekyo Sharingan.

[Sen]

I totally agree, I think Itachi is stronger than Sasuke.

I love all the evidence you use as well. I think the Uchiha fight really did prove overall that Sasuke was not at Itachi's level.

[John Connor]

people have been saying everything you posted since the fight finished and Sasuke fans just ignored it

I'm betting they will ignore you too

[Jυstin]

Originally Posted by Sen

I totally agree, I think Itachi is stronger than Sasuke.

I love all the evidence you use as well. I think the Uchiha fight really did prove overall that Sasuke was not at Itachi's level.

This took little more than 5 minutes actually, right after I got out of the shower. I was linked to the board that Nikushimi posts on besides NF and stumbled across SS2's post in a thread Nikushimi made.

This goes without saying that Sasuke will pass Itachi, but not at this moment, or as soon as Sasuke-only fans want to push.

Originally Posted by Kobra

people have been saying everything you posted since the fight finished and Sasuke fans just ignored it

I'm betting they will ignore you too

You're absolutely right on that, but it's ok. Let them ignore me, but I want them to bring in their sound reasoning as to why they think otherwise. I won't bother with sheer opinionated posts or anything on a trolling level, so I don't care much about those.

I just want to see if a logical reason why all of this information is false can be made.

[mootz]

I agree Itachi has better staring techniques. He is by far more advanced using his eyes than sasuke.

[Kool-Aid]

how didn't people understand this by reading the manga once?

[Sen]

Originally Posted by ♣Uchiha God♣

This took little more than 5 minutes actually, right after I got out of the shower. I was linked to the board that Nikushimi posts on besides NF and stumbled across SS2's post in a thread Nikushimi made.

This goes without saying that Sasuke will pass Itachi, but not at this moment, or as soon as Sasuke-only fans want to push.

I figured as much.

But I don't know if I agree that Sasuke will surpass Itachi. I see the manga continuing with the idea of Naruto surpassing Sasuke. But Itachi was at a much higher level than Sasuke when he was half-dying, so I don't think Sasuke will necessarily be able to reach that level.

[ironblade_x1]

Another winsome thread, full of much wisdom.

+Reps.

[Jυstin]

Originally Posted by Kool-Aid

how didn't people understand this by reading the manga once?

You'd be surprised. Actually, the quotes of mine in the OPs are quotes in a thread where there were a lot of Nay Sayers. My quoted posts were replying to one such Sasuke fan

Originally Posted by Sen

I figured as much.

But I don't know if I agree that Sasuke will surpass Itachi. I see the manga continuing with the idea of Naruto surpassing Sasuke. But Itachi was at a much higher level than Sasuke when he was half-dying, so I don't think Sasuke will necessarily be able to reach that level.

Well, I see Minato and Itachi as parallels that Kishi created, due to these comparisons:

Spoiler:

Jiraiya and Orochimaru:

1. Jiraiya is seen as the Naruto of the Sannin, who chased after the female, Tsunade, who is like Sakura. Orochimaru is the quiet genius, like Sasuke.
2. Jiraiya made a sacrifice of himself to help his village. Orochimaru made sacrifices of his village to help himself.
3. Orochimaru, like Sasuke, defected from Konoha, and Jiraiya, like Naruto, tried to stop him. Like Naruto and Sasuke, they had a fight at VotE, where Orochimaru, like Sasuke, won.
4. They are both Sannin.
5. Jiraiya took Naruto for 2.5 years to train him to surpass Minato, his ultimate benchmark, while Orochimaru took Sasuke for 2.5 years to train him to pass Itachi, his ultimate benchmark.

6. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are both pretty much the Sannin equivalent to Sasuke and Naruto. NO ONE can deny this.

Now, we have Itachi and Minato.

1. Both made sacrifices to save their village and the shinobi world.
2. Minato, while acknowledged for his sacrifice, died for it. Itachi, who did not die for his sacrifice, was not acknowledged, and was known a villain with his name smeared in the blood of his family.
3. Itachi's ultimate sacrifice gave Sasuke power, while Minato's gave Naruto power.
4. Minato's sacrifice to Naruto gave him Kyuubi, which is related to what Itachi's sacrifice gave Sasuke, Mangekyou Sharingan.
5. Minato defeated Kyuubi, while Itachi controlled it.
6. We never got to see Minato at full, his true power. We also never had the privilege of seeing the same from Itachi.
7. Minato's signature Jutsu, Hirashin, allowed him to strike multiple opponents simultaneously. Itachi's display with kunai practice showed he could do the same thing, hitting 8 targets in the bulls eye, even by using two kunai to angle them to hit blind spots.
8. Itachi's whole life was kept a mystery to Sasuke. Minato's relationship to Naruto and life was also kept from Naruto. Now that Sasuke knows about Itachi, I suspect the truth about Minato to be revealed soon.
9. Minato and Itachi, both represent the same kind of life. Itachi's life, sacrifice, and relationship with Sasuke, though, was viewed as a much darker, or rather negative, version of Minato and his life and sacrifice.
10. Jiraiya, who is like Naruto, took him to train to surpass Minato. Orochimaru, who is like Sasuke, took him to train to surpass Itachi.
11. Both were seen as perfect shinobi, skill wise, in their life.

Ultimately, Itachi is Sasuke's ultimate benchmark while Minato is Naruto's. Both Naruto and Sasuke, in my eyes, are seen as equals, and as such, I see Minato and Itachi as equals. In fact, I believe, IMHO, that Kishi intended Itachi and Minato to be THE BEST/STRONGEST ninja of all time, but purposely did not show all their stuff, but only a glimpse of the tip of their ever so deep chasm of power. In this way, it would make sense that, when both benchmarks are passed by their respective main characters, Naruto and Sasuke, that they will be the strongest in the manga, and will be able to take down their final villains, Madara and Pein, who would also seem to be parallels, thus finishing the circle, or chart, of connections.

To me, it fits just too damn tight to try to un-knot any part of it and still try to say it fits

So, in my personal opinion, Kishi will probably have Sasuke and Naruto stand on top, after defeating Madara and Pein, after they passed their respective benchmarks.

Still, this is yet to be seen

Originally Posted by ironblade_x1

Another winsome thread, full of much wisdom.

+Reps.

Thanks

[dark messiah verdandi]

a real sasuke fan like myself knows that itachi was and still curently is stronger than sasuke. in their fight sasuke threw a crapload of winjutsu(tm) at itachi, but itachi just had that skill.

the real difference in itachi and sasuke lied in two things. the first was obviously the mangekyou sharingan. almost everyone knows the doujutsu and its capabilities, so I wont dwell on that.

the second was itachi's mastery of basic ninjutsu. this is that factor that really awes everyone. sure sasuke is a prodigy amongst nearly all others (i'll put twenty as the number of shinobi that could really waste sasuke, which is extrordinary) but itachi was just so damn good at being a ninja.

he had a cognative speed that easily equalled shikamaru's if not beat it. he basicly mastered nin,tai, and genjutsu (the sharingan helped alot, not saying he needed it to be strong, but it made him a ninja monster) and his hatred was finely aged to perfection.

now, sasuke is a genius, but he lacks wisdom and even a true sense of self.
he wanders from teacher to teacher on a quest of endless revenge.

sasuke also needs to work on variety in his jutsu list. for a sharingan user quantity is sometimes much greater than quality. there are also some very potent comboes out there for a sharingan user. and they are quite chakra efficient.

finaly on to sasukes hatred. its immature. itachi knew exactly what he hated for most of his life, war. so he spent his life trying to prevent it. sasuke has no Idea what he really hates. I feel like he just wants to hate because it validates his existance (just how gaara used to be.) this needs to change if there will be any kind of redemption for sasuke or character development even...

that may have sounded harsh, but real sasuke fans dish out tough love, just like his parents..

anyhow, yes sasuke is weaker than itachi,but he won't be forever. actually it should'nt be long now...

[Jυstin]

Originally Posted by dark messiah verdandi

a real sasuke fan like myself knows that itachi was and still curently is stronger than sasuke. in their fight sasuke threw a crapload of winjutsu(tm) at itachi, but itachi just had that skill.

the real difference in itachi and sasuke lied in two things. the first was obviously the mangekyou sharingan. almost everyone knows the doujutsu and its capabilities, so I wont dwell on that.

the second was itachi's mastery of basic ninjutsu. this is that factor that really awes everyone. sure sasuke is a prodigy amongst nearly all others (i'll put twenty as the number of shinobi that could really waste sasuke, which is extrordinary) but itachi was just so damn good at being a ninja.

he had a cognative speed that easily equalled shikamaru's if not beat it. he basicly mastered nin,tai, and genjutsu (the sharingan helped alot, not saying he needed it to be strong, but it made him a ninja monster) and his hatred was finely aged to perfection.

now, sasuke is a genius, but he lacks wisdom and even a true sense of self.
he wanders from teacher to teacher on a quest of endless revenge.

sasuke also needs to work on variety in his jutsu list. for a sharingan user quantity is sometimes much greater than quality. there are also some very potent comboes out there for a sharingan user. and they are quite chakra efficient.

finaly on to sasukes hatred. its immature. itachi knew exactly what he hated for most of his life, war. so he spent his life trying to prevent it. sasuke has no Idea what he really hates. I feel like he just wants to hate because it validates his existance (just how gaara used to be.) this needs to change if there will be any kind of redemption for sasuke or character development even...

that may have sounded harsh, but real sasuke fans dish out tough love, just like his parents..

anyhow, yes sasuke is weaker than itachi,but he won't be forever. actually it should'nt be long now...

This is exactly where I think an agreement should be made too, and I'm glad to see that, as a Sasuke fan, you're at that spot.

As a Sasuke fan, you agree that Itachi is still greater than Sasuke in pretty much every way as of yet. As an Itachi fan, I agree that this won't last for long, and that Sasuke will indeed pass Itachi, but right now, the manga is in contradiction with fans who try to say Sasuke will never pass Itachi or that he already has. No evidence shows he has, and it's obvious that Sasuke, like Naruto, will pass his benchmark sometime before the manga ends.

Now if the other Itachi/Sasuke fans could agree on this as well... there would be none of this between them(and ironically, the fans are like the brothers themselves):

YouTube Video

Uchiha fans should band together in defense of them as a whole, not start to hate one or the other because of this argument which is tearing the Uchiha fandom apart as a whole

[Mind of the North Star]

Its sad that people need this fight broken down. Maybe the OP can proven the Sun exists too .



BTW First Post but not a true newbie. I have been lurking like that guy who said he was ya "uncle"

[Vergil642]

Hopefully people will actually acknowledge the logic in this thread rather than simply refusing to believe Sasuke could still be inferior to Itachi. There's no shame in being inferior to the King anyway. I could count on one hand the number of ninja that aren't inferior to him.

+reps for well written thread that also manages to avoid flaming anyone in the slightest ^_^

EDIT: Damn, can't rep you so soon.

[Rios]

lol I thought thats painfully obvious
Anyway Sasuke has been stated to have "better eyes than Itachi" so him becoming stronger than the King is a given

Originally Posted by Vergil642

Hopefully people will actually acknowledge the logic in this thread rather than simply refusing to believe Sasuke could still be inferior to Itachi. There's no shame in being inferior to the King anyway. I could count on one hand the number of ninja that aren't inferior to him.

+reps for well written thread that also manages to avoid flaming anyone in the slightest ^_^

make 50 posts first

[Syferz]

I agree with almost everything, just 2 points.

1. Sasuke's benchmark I believe to have been changed to Madara when Sasuke says he will kill the other person who helped Itachi, and that Itachi named Madara, meaning that Sasuke will have to somehow surpass Madara, who we should all see as superior to Sasuke at this point.

(At the same time, Naruto has been pitted up against Pain, being the two chosen and all, they are fated to fight, and Pain is generally killing everything that Naruto cares about. Also being the Akatsuki leader, this is an indirect mirrioring of Sasuke and Naruto again, as Madara is the behind the scenes "leader" while Sasuke is our "anti-hero" or atleast to the best of his abilities.)

2. Jiraiya is equal to Itachi as stated directly by Kishimoto, I think he personally just loves both characters, or doesn't want to deminish either story by making one less relavent, but in the end, the entire paragraph about Kisame and Itachi fighting Jiraiya that SS2 mentioned, does not include Jiraiya's "trump card" instend it simply is Kisame looking at Itachi, and possibly knowing his "trump card" this is in essence the same thing as someone behind a poker players shoulder looking at an amazing hand, and saying that he will win if he plays it, but has no idea what the other players hand is.

(Kishimoto says they are equal, this is not really debatable.)

Good post btw, I do hope Sasuke stops playing into everyone's hands though, that is his fault and the reason I don't really like him atm, it was bad enough he plays right into Madara's hands, but then fails on Madara and kills that cloud ninja Jay, and a lizard? wth is Kishimoto doing with this character?

[†_Camorra_†]

I always had to lol when i read SS2 Vegeto posts This guy takes the manga a bit to seriously Also

"He had taken your reactions into account."

It's stated by Madara that Itachi took Sasuke's ability to react into account and held back so that he could handle it, while using the Mangekyo Sharingan - specifically in regards to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

Thats utter bolocks,Madara meant to say that Itachi knew of Sasuke's fighting style not that Itachi was holding back in terms of holding back some power.The manga prooves it,Itachi knew of almost every jutsu from Sasuke except Kirin but even then he had Susano-o as a trump card.Tsukiyomi was broken by Sasuke because he could simply overpower it,Amaterasu would fail anyway against Oro's Kawarimi cause it takes to much time to burn you completly.

[Cardboard Jewsuke]

I know you Sasuke fans want him to be stronger than Sasuke

If Sasuke ever surpasses Sasuke, Kishi will have officially gone to far.

[Sephiroth]

Civil war wouldn't be good for the Uchiha community. Otherwise us Madara fans being the smallest majority would be against huge groups.

As long as noone claims Itachi>Madara, I'm cool.