Worf vs. Data

[martryn]

...but Worf has Klingon weapons while Data is bare-handed.

And this is TNG Worf and Data, so premovies and all that junk.

[®]

Originally Posted by martryn

...but Worf has Klingon weapons while Data is bare-handed.

And this is TNG Worf and Data, so premovies and all that junk.

Worf and Data are about as strong in hand-to-hand... except for Data's durability. The key is if Worf can damage Data enough before they enter hand-to-hand.

[LightningElemental]

I'm going to say Q breaks up the fight. I've pondered for a while and can't decide who would end up victorious, so forgive me for taking the easy way out. Plus it seems like something Q would do.

[jkingler]

Data could rip a piece of a nearby wall off and use that as a weapon. Data is a lean, mean, fighting machine. Also, he is way smarter than Worf and he could think about a million moves ahead of Worf. As hardcore as a permanently and genetically furrowed brow is, Data would whoop on Worf, in my estimation.

[Kunoichi no Kiri]

I haven't seen much of Star Trek, but I do remember Data picking up an anvil like it was a Kleenex box. o_O;;

[jkingler]

Yeah, Data is wicked strong. How you like those apples, Worf?

[martryn]

I'm going to say that Worf, with his amazing skill with Klingon melee weapons, does enough damage to Data to turn the fight in his favor at the beginning, before they start grappling. I think that this might give Worf the slight advantage.

[®]

Most people posting are ignoring the key part of this battle - is Data going to get damaged pre-melee?

[martryn]

And Worf has some mad skill with those Klingon weapons.



K'neH'a', Data! K'neH'a'!

[®]

Originally Posted by forkshy

data can't hurt living beings.

Let's suppose he can.

[martryn]

Then how about Worf vs a holodeck Data programed like real Data except without killing inhibitions and the holodeck safety feature is off because LaForge and Picard gave their security clearance thing.

[jkingler]

I agree. Lore is a better contender. And I think he would DEFINITELY whoop on Worf. Klingons are cool, but they are outclassed, here.

[Nybarius]

Since this is an incarnation of Data which disobeys Asimov's Robot Laws, also known as the only safeguard keeping Worf's face from being pounded into a Klingon football of scar tissue (more scar tissue) and burst blood vessels, Data should win, easily. He has far better analytical and tactical abilities, he has superhuman reflexes (probably in Spiderman's league, so far ahead of the human neural system it seems telepathic) and strength, and he knows both Worf's particular psychology, and general Klingon fighting styles (not to mention anatomy) cold.

You might protest: if Data is such an ass-kicker, why is Worf in charge of security? The truth is, this is the Chewbacca defense: it makes no sense. ST:TNG makes no sense. As my friend shiftedShapes pointed out to me, Data is so overbearingly competent that his presence renders the rest of the crew redundant. There's nothing that any of them can do, alone or together, that Data can't.

(Except o-_0 . . . perhaps -- love?)

Were Data allowed to do everything, though, there would be no show, as every mission would go off without a hitch, unless Q or some other illogical force was at work (and that only happens once or twice a season). The regular roster of villains would be quite ineffective against Data: as an android, he's not prone to diplomatic entanglements, obviating the need for any involvement in the Federation's endless peacekeeping missions and wars (but I repeat myself); and I don't think he would change much upon being assimilated by the Borg, absent the interference of a kooky emotion chip.

If anything, he would shape the Borg: for he is the perfect ubermandroid. The one Zarathustra foretold; a sentinel of sentience, a mastermold for a master-race. Consider this: devout Hindus strive to free themselves from attachment, Data was born (or rather made) that way. Our purgatory is his samsara. Some might argue that he isn't truly enlightened, because he's never made any movement of faith; that is, he never had to give up any attachments because he never had any in the first place*. I think this is a trifling matter amounting to sour grapes. Sure, he started on the finish line in the Kurt Cobain dash, but to get mad at that is ironic, for it entails embracing an ideal of shunning attachment through rage, a sign of attachment---but it's the strongest line I can see to take against his Buddhafication.

I get the feeling that Gene Roddenberry would detest this post, which sings the wonders of Data the heartless machine. Devout humanist, he is; laboring to convert mankind's vices into virtues; a toady, playing sycophant for the whole human race, saints and sinners alike**. Dressed up in the garb of science fiction & a love of advanced science, he graffitis humanity's face upon the stars, all the time missing how small we appear, measured against the great indifferent beyond.

But let me return to the main thread, as I fear I've divagated off on an original series tangent, meaninglessly, since we all know the Vulcan nerve pinch > Mindless Hulk > non-cosmic Marvel universe. If Worf v. Data were to occur on the show (and maybe it has, I'm not really a fan, though I've seen some episodes and liked the show when it was running), there would probably be about 2/3 of an episode of buildup explaining why Data is unstoppable. And then Worf would win with his power of the Klingon (organic life-form) heart/soul, to save the (dog-ass ugly Klingon!) woman he loved. Fah!

Despite his immense qualifications, though, Data should never be put in charge of the TV-land Enterprise. If he were, there would be no mission, and so no show. Unbound by the nagging, athlete's-foot itch known as desire, he would presumably see no need to boldly go where no man has gone before. He's not even a man, ferkrissake! (Prof Frink voice: in the, traditional sense. /Frink voice). Programmed perfect contentment and sang froid combined with nonpareil adaptation and survival skills means not having to play the intergalactic equivalent of a workmanlike dog having a piss on every yard in a foreign country.

Thinking about this thread has opened a very interesting existential thought puzzle for me. Stripped of robot laws and human imperatives, what would Data do with himself? No god or family or religion or society could possibly anchor his life; why would these things matter at all to him? Most any human placed in such a state of unnatural anhedonia and enervation would attempt suicide; "prefer[ring] to will nothing, than to not will at all." But I think Data would find a different path, and join a similarly enlightened one in gazing up at the clouds all day, dreaming no dreams, unreflective about his lack of reflections; withdrawn and intraverted as the autistic, inwardly, but engaged & indispensable in any social setting he cared to infiltrate. Imagine how easy making it big in the anime scene would be, for instance, if you could personally match the speed and far exceed the quality of an entire overworked Korean studio, pick up any language with instant-transmission speed, and choose from a database of hundreds of billions of characters & stories, from canonical literature down to Come Come Paradise.

Such is the cruelty of the Gods, the joke of those enlightened sifus who wear conventional faces that conceal granite: gaining power, they lose all use for it; phenomenally skilled at self-transformation, they lose the will to be anything but here in space and time.

If even that.

NOTES


*] I am ignoring the episodes / movie with the emotion chip, because I think they're ludicrously implausible; why would Data WANT emotions? They'd do nothing but hinder him, and he's impervious to peer pressure. Also, he could have no possible impetus to change, free of human constraints; what could tempt him, when he can't feel temptation? That my good sir is a paradox! Clearly he'd make the Vulcan decision.)

**See: Kirk beating the computer at chess. LOLFERSKATES! If Gary 'Gazza' Kasparov himself got whooped by Deep Blue in 1996, imagine how Shatner would fare against the newest model from so many years in the future that the Gregorian calendar's been displaced and its replacement is sharing a mid-life crisis with a black hole. Maybe humanity got reallllly good with the genetic engineering. (See: jacuzzi scene in Futurama ;)). Or maybe the computer knows to let Kirk win a certain percentage of times so as to increase his efficiency as a captain; I imagine that, if computers so breathtakingly intelligent existed, they would view us as cumbersome infants. Like William Shatner, yaknow?

[jkingler]

Nyabrius: you may very well be my new favorite poster. You and Wrath will hopefully keep things interesting for me here on NF, as you have single (or double) handedly done today. I tried to rep you, but I did earlier so I can't yet.

forks: You got a rep, so your bar should be developing a strong gravitational pull right about now. Keep posting like that and your rep will suck all the light right out of mine

@Nybarius: While I vote for Data, I concede to forks' point: if we are playing within the (many unwritten but strongly implied) rules and limitations of Roddenberry's universe, then Worf wins by convenient plot devices. Worf, although not a human, and despite the fact that as a Klingon he wouldn't prescribe to human philosophies, Roddenberry is a human author. From my viewings of ST: TNG, even though he is always ready to die and he defies Schopenhauer's "will to live," Nietzsche's "will to power" seems to be a driving force for the Klingon race and Data's absence of will would prove disadvantageous here.

@Forks: However, I like to think outside the box, so I have to side with Nybarius.* If we are already assuming Data will try to kill sentient beings, why not assume that Roddenberry is a hack, and that Data would handily and mercilessly kill Worf with cold, hard efficiency? That is where I am coming from, and that is why I think Data would be able to utilize his surroundings and his inherent abilities to kill Worf in pretty much any situation, unarmed or not. I think the only way Data loses this is if he is already half submerged in a molten metal pool. It is a sci-fi fact that androids hate that

*The one exception to my aggreance is your term "ubermandroid." While it is highly palatable, philosophers, for the most part, care not for beautiful turns of phrase. I think Nietzsche would have preferred the term ubermenchdroid

[braindx]

Data would probably win most of the time. As people said, Worf's emotions give him a chance... albeit probably not a great one, especially because of Data's superhuman reflexes (as well as analyzation and intelligence..).

[jkingler]

But, if one is assuming that logic alone wins the day in a confrontation then it would stand to reason that my arguement is the superior, no? My axiom is the most solidly based in the facts we have been rpesented with, and my conclusions are drawn in a strait line from those facts.

If logic were the determining factor, anyone on Roddenbery's side of the tracks automatically loses

Your rhetoric is the most logical, but Data's fist quashes rhetoric with force. Not to mention Mr. Pigskin (read: Worf), whose flattened remains would probably resemble the nastiest chitterlings of all time.

But I respect the devil's advocate. Without such folks, debates like this get to be like Moe's first round battle, and that is no fun. It's just plain mean.

[Nybarius]

*The one exception to my aggreance is your term "ubermandroid." While it is highly palatable, philosophers, for the most part, care not for beautiful turns of phrase. I think Nietzsche would have preferred the term ubermenchdroid

If Nietzsche is somewhere chilling in the astral plane checking out how people use and misuse his work, I'm sure he's got bigger fish to fry than me. His sister, for one. If not, then why should we the living spend our days on egshells because of what some dead guy would want? That's not what he would have wanted!

Anyway, it's alright. I'm none too fond of the term "aggreance," but I'm just gonna make like Sub-Zero and grin'n'bear it. Sometimes, it's best to agree to disaggreeance.

...

Not in the outskirts battledome, though ;). In the outskirts battledome, all will be brought around to my side. By hook or by crook--they will. Though that monkey is winning now, he will learn to RASPECK THE OWL'S AUTHORATAI! And so I will fisk forkshy's valiant defence of the doomed Klingon:

As can be seen in episode 14 of TOS, “The Galileo Seven”, ability in and of itself is not all that is required to command and operate a starship..

I've never seen the episode, but according to the summary, Spock eventually gets almost all of his men out of there. In so doing, he utilizes quite a few ingenious tactics, such as electifying the outside of their vessel with their phasors. This might be more revealing than I'd like, but I view the ill feelings of his subordinates as entirely their fault. If I were in a situation like that, there's nobody I would rather have commanding me than Spock--except, perhaps, Data ;).

Besides, the fact that Spock's men experienced low morale is irrelevant to this matchup, since this is a duel. Data isn't leading a team of emotional organic life-forms, he's flying solo. If Spock had been leading a team of Vulcans, or if he were on a solo mission, he wouldn't have been any problems. Also, Spock != Data, though there are similarities. Even Vulcans are at the mecy of their biology. Data is a whole different animal.

While I agree that data possesses superior strength, speed and intelligence I would like to point out that it is possible to play a very strong hand very poorly.

Absolutely correct: if you're human. For instance, I've lost many a won game of chess because I was too excited, or sleepy, or bored, or under the spell of any of the myriad emotions which have haunted the minds of men since time immemorial. Data has no such disadvantages.

I might as well say it right now: although it's canon, I simply refuse to accept that Kirk could defeat Spock or any strong computer at 3d-chess, or any sort of chess, for that matter, even though it is Star Trek canon. I seriously doubt Kirk could draw a computer in checkers (the best result available being a draw, since the game has been solved). If he could really defeat the computer at chess, it would mean he posseses the most raw spatial/mathematical intelligence of any man who ever lived. ...
..
And, I mean, it's Kirk! Besides the fact that we all know that that plum goes to the lovable lazy Shikamaru, it's just fundamentally wrong. Frikkin' let's abandon the crew so I can try to score with the three-breasted chick from Orion Kirk, for krissakes. It's impossible to describe with logic why this particular cloying plot-twist isn't sound, because it dwells below the surface of logic. It's as axiomatic as a=a.

Maybe it's because I've absorbed a materialistic philosophy down to the bone (I'm braising in it as we speak), but orgasmic celebrations of the magic of the human spirit founded upon celebrating our limitations make me want to wretch. These self-serving, "love / a dream > all" fantasies can kill you, as Worf will learn if he tries some "leap of faith" strategy against Data, (ie "I will put all of my emotion into this blow!") who will already have ensured it is merely a leap into certain death.

I'm glad that you mentioned Data's lack of emotions, because it makes it easier for me to point out some of his less obvious advantages; although it does sort of confuse me, too. Which side were you arguing, again? ;).

How could it not be beneficial for Data to be free of all emotions during a deathmatch. He naturally possess a perfectly developed version of the mental "set" that most every fighting system I've studied has attempted to teach. Cold blooded, baby. The flip-side of this is that Data, feeling no emotion, can still use his analytical skills and monstrous ability to interpret body language and such to manipulate Worf's emotions and weaken him. Imagine the mischief he could sew in Worf's mind if he threw his voice behind Worf during a crucial moment and mimicked the voice of Deanna Troi---or the kid Worf unintetionally killed during a game of a soccer (of all things) when he was a kid himself?

Warf has the emotional edge and a drive to win that data will never possess.

For the purposes of this thread, we're assuming that Data will stop at nothing to defeat Worf. Such an imperative outweighs any messy result which can be obtained by human "resolve" and "feelings". Even in this universe, I have some proof that this is so: during his temptation by the Borg-queen during that movie, Data's ethics chip, probably filled with imperatives similar in kind to "Kill Worf," managed to overcome his emotions chip.

Thus, robotic command > emotion, as the emotion chip seemed even more powerful than the regular helping of human emotion. (I know, I know, it was a new sensation for Data, but come on; I've never seen anybody except me get so excited over a kitty-cat.)

Also, Data's "kill Worf" imperative is clear and unmuddled. In contrast, the flip side of a strong resolve to win cobbled together from wetware and its emotion interface is a fear of losing; in this case, the most primal fear of all, for all sentient living organisms I know of: the fear of death.

This enables him to take risks that are not likely to pay off but may, in the course of the fight, do so.

I would assert that the opposite is true, because Data has no fear of the reaper, while Worf is still subject to billions of years of biological programming demanding he stay alive and propagate his genes (or whatever). But Data carries this advantage in a far more fearsome manner than Worf could, if he possessed it, because he is far better able to calculate the probable outcomes of any chancy maneuver he attempts. I really don't think he'd have to take it to this level, though. The battle should end before he is forced to really get serious and stake his life.

Evidence of this can be found in TNG #47, “Peak Performance,” when data heads off one on one with a master of the game Strategema. Though Data seems to posses every advantage the master defeats him. Later, Data engages the master in a rematch, and changes his strategy to force the game to end in a stalemate. This shows that superior ability does no necessarily yield victory for data because the android lacks the ability for versatile creative thinking that a human does. Sometimes, the logical decision is not necessarily the correct one, and sometimes the urge to win outweighs the desire to correctly solve a problem.

Well, just more ra-ra-pro-humanity boosterism. Still, it bears pointing out in passing that Worf ain't no Strategema master. He's excellent at battle tactics and strategies, of course, but I really don't see him as being on Data's level here. You've shown that it's possible for a specialized human master to triumph, once, in an arena such as that, which Data takes up for a lark--now show how Worf could do it in this battle

And I'll just pretend that last bit about Kirk didn't exist ;)

Thanks for playing the devil's advocate.

[UltraSynaptic SeizureNinja]

I'd have to say Data on this one.

I remember one episode where Lal (or something it was Data's evil twin) beat the crap out of Worf in a turbolift.

[jkingler]

His evil twin's name is Lore, and I agree,

[Gooba]

Data wins, easily. Worf is strong, but nothing compared to Data. If I am not mistaken Data has beaten Worf a few times. He goes bad like 3 times per season, I think they tangled more than once. *goes off to review his complete TNG dvd set*

The problem with the "emotional edge" is that there is no time for it. Data can just run up to Worf and snap his neck like it is a twig (even easier than that). His reflexes are insane, he can dodge anything Worf would attack him with, or just block it with his metal arm. Worf's strength would offer no resistance if he tried to hold Data's arms away from his neck.

Data's first real emotion was experianced while killing a Borg with his hands, and Worf cannot fight a Borg hand to hand.