A link in time: Rinnegan--Rikudou Sennin--Negato--Pain

[chikmagnet7]

This is a long thread, and I know how some of you don't like to read long threads. Well, I'm here to tell you "Do it anyways." I promise you'll like it. My goal with this thread is to provide something fresh. I will attempt to explain Pain's mystery. If I leave you wondering and contemplating, then I've done my job.

Table of Contents
1.Premise
2.The Sharingan
3. The Byakugan
4. The Rinnegan
5.Transmigration and Metempsychosis
6.Back when it All Began...and Now...
7.Kishimoto is a Tricky Bastard
8.What is Pain?
9.The Piercings
10.Implications
11.Conclusion

Parts
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Premise

In my opinion, too many people are caught up on the wrong question: "Who is Pain?" Instead, people should ask themselves "what is Pain?" Let me begin by giving some background on the three major dojutsu to expound on my point.

The Sharingan

As you may already know, the sharingan is a dojutsu that belongs to the Uchiha clan. It has three separate levels of power that we know of so far: the tomoes, the mangekyou sharingan, and the eternal mangekyou sharingan. The main abilities of the sharingan include a sort of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions to the opponent and the ability to track extremely fast movements. But the most well known and probably greatest ability of the sharingan is the ability that gave Kakashi his nick name--"copy ninja Kakashi." That is, the ability to copy a jutsu by simply seeing it. It is for this reason that the sharingan translates to "copy wheel eye."

The Byakugan

As you probably know, the byakugan is a dojutsu that belongs to members of the Hyuuga clan. The byakugan provides its users a 359 degree field of vision, with a 1 degree blind spot. However, with practice, skilled Hyuugas can use that blindness to their advantage in battle. Byakugan users can also detect anything around them within a certain radius that depends on the skill of the user, and they can see through any matter over long distances. And thus, the byakugan is very useful when tracking--a job that is a must for most ninja. It also allows its users the perfect tool for a unique brand of fighting known as the gentle fist. But what I want to focus on is what byakugan translates to in English. Does anyone know? That's right....White eyes. And naturally, when a Hyuuga activates the byakugan, his eyes turn white and lose their pupils. Are people catching on yet? Does anyone see where I'm going with this?

The Rinnegan

Relatively little is known about the Rinnegan in comparison to the sharingan or byakugan. We know that it was originally possessed by the sage of the sixth paths--the founder of ninjutsu itself. We know that Pain now possesses it. We know that it shows up on all of Pain's six bodies. We know that it gives the user the ability to use all 5 (6?) different natures of chakra. We know that when Pain fought Jiraiya, he was able to use the eyes of all of his bodies as sort of camera lenses. In other words, Pain could see from the point of view of any of the six bodies. But what else do we know?

That's right....We know that Kishimoto likes to give his legendary dojutsu names that suggest their purpose, appearance, or function. And with that in mind, we can draw conclusions based upon what we already know. So what do we know? Well, what does rinnegan translate to in English? It means "transmigration eye" or "metempsychosis eye." hmmm

Transmigration and Metempsychosis

Simply put, transmigration occurs when, after someone dies, his/her soul is transferred (transmigrates) into another being and thus takes birth once again. Transmigration, like reincarnation, hinges on the belief that souls are not born; they have always existed. The phenomenon of new people is the result of the souls of the dead finding new hosts. Now allow me to quote a source on the matter. Pay attention to the part in bold:

Metempsychosis is a fundamental doctrine of several religions originating in India. In Hinduism, the individual soul enters a new existence after the death of the body. The sum total of past moral conduct, or karma, determines the condition of the soul and the quality of its rebirth. The cycle of rebirth is eternal unless the soul is released by knowledge or arduous effort (see yoga). This release (moksha or mukti) is a form of salvation, and is possible only for the most devout. Buddhist doctrine does not accept the soul or transmigration as such, treating both as illusory. Rather, there is an eternal, undifferentiated stream of being (samsara). Out of this, existences are produced and prolonged according to karma, or past actions. The individual is not a separate entity, but rather a grouping of elements. They revert to the original primal stream when desire, the cause of the transmigratory cycle, ceases. Only devout Buddhists or saints (i.e., those who abandon all desire) are able to realize this oneness.

(http://www.bartleby.com/65/tr/transmig.html)

As you know, Kishimoto likes to include links to mythology, especially as it pertains to the Buddhist faith. And if you get anything out of my thread, this is what it should be: Pain is not one person; he is a link among many people. As it says, the transmigration will end when Pain’s desire ends. And what is Pain’s desire? It’s to create that weapon and rule through fear. If you remember from all of those mythology threads, there are 6 states of desire. I won't go in to them now because they've already been dealt with a great deal (I post the basic idea a little later so continue on if you want to review). But just so you know, that is where my thread and those threads intertwine.

But if Pain is multiple people as I claim, how is it that he seems to have the personality and/or memory of one of Jiraiya's students? To answer, allow me to quote another source:

The Buddha taught a concept of rebirth that was distinct from that of any Indian teacher contemporary with him. This concept was consistent with the common notion of a sequence of related lives stretching over a very long time, but was constrained by two core Buddhist concepts: anatta, that there is no irreducible atman or "self" tying these lives together; and anicca, that all compounded things are subject to dissolution, including all the components of the human person and personality. At the death of one personality, a new one comes into being, much as the flame of a dying candle can serve to light the flame of another.

Since according to Buddhism there is no permanent and unchanging self (identify) there can be no transmigration in the strict sense. However, the Buddha himself referred to his past-lives. Buddhism teaches that what is reborn is not the person but that one moment gives rise to another and that that momentum continues, even after death. It is a more subtle concept than the usual notion of reincarnation, reflecting the sophisticated Buddhist concept of personality existing (even within one's lifetime) without a "soul". Buddhism never rejected samsara, the process of rebirth, but suggests that it occurs across six realms of beings--[again the six realms of existence/desire].

(http://www.crystalinks.com/reincarnation.html)

It is likely that as a reincarnation, Pain holds the memories of all those who came before him. And his personality is likely an amalgamation as well, or possibly just Nagato's mixed with Rikudou's and Yahiko's.

For more information on the basis of the six realms of existence, click the spoiler:

Spoiler:

1. Beings in Hell (Naraka-gati in Sanskrit). Jigokudō in Japanese;People in Hells; the lowest and worst realm, wracked by torture and characterized by aggression.
2. Hungry GhostHungry Ghosts
Preta-gati in Sanskrit; Gakidō in Japanese;Hungry Spirits, Hungry Ghosts; the realm of hungry spirits; characterized by great craving and eternal starvation; see below photo/link for "Scroll of the Hungry Ghosts" (Gaki-zoshi)
3. Animals (Tiryagyoni-gati in Sanskrit). Chikushōdō in JapaneseAnimals and Livestock; the realm of animals and livestock, characterized by stupidity and servitude.
4. Asura (Asura-gati in Sanskrit); Ashuradō in Japanese.
Asura or Asuras; the realm of anger, jealousy, and constant war; the Asura (Ashura) are demigods, semi-blessed beings; they are powerful, fierce and quarrelsome; like humans, they are partly good and partly evil. See Hachi Bushu (8 Legions) for details.
5. Humans (Manusya-gati in Sanskrit); Nindō in Japanese. Humans; the human realm; beings who are both good and evil; enlightenment is within their grasp, yet most are blinded and consumed by their desires.
6. Deva (Deva-gati in Sanskrit); Tendō in Japanese. Deva or Devas; the realm of heavenly beings filled with pleasure; the deva hold godlike powers; some reign over celestial kingdoms; most live in delightful happiness and splendor; they live for countless ages, but even the Deva belong to the world of suffering (samsara) -- for their powers blind them to the world of suffering and fill them with pride -- and thus even the Deva grow old and die; some say that because their pleasure is greatest, so too is their misery. See also the Tenbu page and Hachi Bushu (8 Legions) page.
(http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/six-states.shtml)

Continue on in the next post.

[chikmagnet7]

This is the part where we start having some fun. This is the part where I shift from an essay format into theory/ speculation format. This is where I take the facts that we know to be true and analyze them to reach a logical conclusion. And hopefully, if all goes well, I will answer your questions too.

Table of Contents
1.Premise
2.The Sharingan
3. The Byakugan
4. The Rinnegan
5.Transmigration and Metempsychosis
6.Back when it All Began...and Now...
7.Kishimoto is a Tricky Bastard
8.What is Pain?
9.The Piercings
10.Implications
11.Conclusion

Parts
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Back When it All Began...and Now...

Let me take you back in time to where most everything began, where our story begins.

Spoiler:

(chapter 372:16)

Jiraiya, who took on a group of three wandering children from the Rain village, learns about an attack by refugees on his students. He rushes to the scene only to find an unfathomable occurrence.

Spoiler:

(Chapter 372:17)

Spoiler:

(Chapter 373:2)

Jiraiya discovers that one of his three students, Nagato, possesses the rinnegan. This is where...everything begins.... Flash back again to Jiraiya's encounter with Pain. Jiraiya notes how the man in front of him possesses the rinnegan like Nagato, but he cannot reconcile their completely separate personalities. When Jiraiya asks what happened to Yahiko, Pain replies in an awkward way:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 374:7)

Jiraiya just can't understand how someone as innocent and caring as Nagato could grow into someone as cold-hearted as Pain. Now is the point where I offer something extremely interesting that not many have seemed to realize.

Kishimoto is a Tricky Bastard

As I've said, it all began with the activation of Nagato's rinnegan. This thread began by pointing out the similarities between the three major dojutsu. Now's the time where I explain an essential difference that I've never heard anyone mention before. And that is this: both the sharingan and the byakugan are abilities that allow the user to deactivate when they see fit. When Sasuke doesn't feel like using the sharingan or when Itachi is getting too tired, Sasuke or Itachi can essentially "turn it off." Similarly, Neji and Hinata Hyuuga can activate or deactivate their byakugans whenever they see fit. But if you've researched the manga pages, as I have in order to write this thread, then you will realize that this is not the case for the rinnegan. So far as we know, you cannot deactivate the rinnegan; once you have it, it’s on for keeps.

So why did I title this section "Kishimoto is a tricky bastard"? Because if you look at every page that features Nagato, you will notice that Kishimoto rarely shows his eyes. Look here:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 373:9)

This page takes place right after Nagato's initial activation of the rinnegan when Jiraiya talks with him. Notice how Kishi covers Nagato's eyes with his hair. Wouldn't it seem suspicious if he still had it activated since the trauma of the situation had died down? Look also at any of the other pages during Jiraiya's discussion with Nagato, and you'll find the same result (pages 7-10).

However, if you look at pages where you can clearly see Nagato's eyes, he always has the rinnegan activated:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 373:12)

So then, I suppose the question is "why is this the case?" Why is it that once the rinnegan is activated, the user can't seem to rid himself of it? Basing my reasoning off of fact and research, I have come to the conclusion that the rinnegan has slowly, over time, taken control of Nagato's body. Too many people seem to forget how important this page is:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 373:7)

Nagato says that he blacked out and lost control--that he lost his mind. You didn't lose your mind, Nagato. You just gained a new one(s) as a part of the rinnegan. You were in the back seat. The rinnegan was doing the driving. And chances are, it's continued to drive you until this point...until you were driven off the cliff.

As we know, the Sage of the Six Paths was the first known user of the rinnegan. Many years later, Nagato activates the rinnegan. Nagato's activation was a sort of rebirth. It was a "transmigration" of sorts from the Sage of the Six Paths (or whoever had the rinnegan last I suppose) to Nagato. Nagato was reborn. He is the original host of the rinnegan. But over time, he became engulfed by it. His personality began to drift away, as his past lives--such as that of Rikudou Sennin--began to take over or perhaps mold with his own. It's for this reason that I'm skeptical of the idea that Nagato is simply the mastermind behind Pain, a little man hiding in a room somewhere who's actually controlling all 6 bodies. It's actually more likely that Nagato isn't one of the six bodies, but is a part of all 6.

There is a misconception about this idea: Nagato became part of the rinnegan with his rebirth; the rinnegan did not become a part of him. Therefore, even though Nagato is not physically any one of the 6 bodies, he is a part of all 6 of them, since he is an essential part of the rinnegan. The same goes for the Sage of the Six Paths. The rinnegan is a sentient force.

Jiraiya couldn't reconcile Pain's and Nagato's personalities. And we don't have to. What killed Jiriaya wasn't Nagato. It was Pain--a being who has been twisted and contorted by the rinnegan itself. Pain "gr[ew] into a god" because over time, the rinnegan took him over:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 374:9)

And now you can see where Pain's God complex comes from--the rinnegan. Over time, we can see the transformation. Pain even says it quite clearly during his battle with Jiraiya: "I have evolved." This transformation or "evolving" took place most likely as the rinnegan became a more and more dominant force over Nagtato...until it totally controlled him.
I'll go into more detail in the following section. So the real question now is...

What is Pain?

As you should know, "who" is but the form, following the function of "what," and what Pain is, is a continual cycle of reincarnation (thank you V for Vendetta lol).

To make things a bit easier to understand, Pain is a collection of bodies, a being who shares the memories and personalities of all his victims, but who is controlled by the rinnegan. Let's begin at the part where Jiraiya introduced the rinnegan:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 373:3)

The rinnegan was first possessed by the sage of the six paths. But read the middle panel. "The rinnegan was called a tool of heaven itself...a tool of God that would bring salvation when the world was in chaos...or a weapon that would destroy all creation and return everything to dust." Interesting, isn't it? "A tool of God," eh? Now where have I heard that before!? If you read the message carefully, you'd realize that it's the tool which was said to be capable of these things, not its user. This fact adds to the idea that the tool--the rinnegan--is sentient, in a way.

Now, glancing at the picture, did you notice the two candles placed behind the sage's back? Doesn't that remind you of something?

The Buddha taught a concept of rebirth that was distinct from that of any Indian teacher contemporary with him. This concept was consistent with the common notion of a sequence of related lives stretching over a very long time, but was constrained by two core Buddhist concepts: anatta, that there is no irreducible atman or "self" tying these lives together; and anicca, that all compounded things are subject to dissolution, including all the components of the human person and personality. At the death of one personality, a new one comes into being, much as the flame of a dying candle can serve to light the flame of another.

Even though the Sage of the Six Paths is no more, his flame lives on in Pain. The rinnegan is always activated much like the cycle of life, death, and rebirth is ongoing continuously. The rinnegan is not a simple dojutsu; it is the link between all ninja who have ever activated it. Pain is not just Nagato. Nor is he simply Yahiko. Pain is the sage of the six paths; Pain is the rinnegan; Pain is the fat body; Pain is the skinny body; Pain is everyone, and Pain is no one. Well, he's not really no one. I just added that in at the end because it sounded epic.

[chikmagnet7]

Table of Contents
1.Premise
2.The Sharingan
3. The Byakugan
4. The Rinnegan
5.Transmigration and Metempsychosis
6.Back when it All Began...and Now...
7.Kishimoto is a Tricky Bastard
8.What is Pain?
9.The Piercings
10.Implications
11.Conclusion

Parts
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Pain is all 6 bodies, and not separate individuals. This is clear enough from the way he introduces himself and the way Konan refers to him:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 371:13)

Spoiler:

(Chapter 379:14-15)

Spoiler:

(Chapter 379:17)

Pain is a single entity, but that entity happens to consist of 6 bodies. The rinnegan provides Pain with a pathway--a link--between the dead and the living. It is the "transmigration eye," after all. The rinnegan also provides Pain with the memories of all of its parts:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 371:12)

Spoiler:

(Chapter 380:3)

Clearly, Pain has the memories of being Jiraiya's student. It seems weird that a multi-bodied being would have memories of his time as an individual, but it actually makes sense. Nagato/Yahiko truly were "past lives" for Pain. But memory of a past life can remain for souls in a new body (bodies).

The Piercings

I think this one has been done before, but I thought I had to mention it. The piercings on Pain's first body were at first thought to be purely style oriented. When we were introduced to the rest of Pain's bodies and each one had those same piercings, people sounded the alarm. I suppose that it's still possible that the piercings are purely for looks alone, but at this point, that's a real long shot.

The more likely option is that the metal (?) has special properties that allows for the controlling of bodies. But how is that possible? There can't be a metal that allows you to control someone's body, can there? Well, think back to the rinnegan: what did it do to Nagato? Over time, it controlled him. The rinnegan is a controlling dojutsu. The metal isn't the specific tool controlling the bodies, but it is allowing for the bodies to be controlled. Think of it this way: the special metal piercings link the separate bodies to the single rennigan. That doesn't sound too far-fetched, does it? The metal links the bodies to the rinnegan, but it is the rennigan which links the bodies to each other. This page is especially interesting and important to my point. This occurs right after Jiraiya is stabbed by the same mysterious metal (most likely) that abounds Pain's bodies:

Spoiler:

(Chapter 381:3)

See the picture of the rinnegan behind Jiraiya? Jiraiya is feeling the affects of the special metal that links Pain's bodies with the rennigan. That's why Jiraiya is feeling the rinnegan. That's why Jiraiya can't seem to control his own chakra. It's this that allows for Pain's multiple bodies. And this is likely the slow transformation Nagato went through as well until he became completely one with the rinnegan.

Implications

As you can imagine, I'm tired of typing. I'm sure there are tons of implications that I'm missing, and I'm not entirely sure this even deserves a section, but I thought I'd just say it for fun anyways. There are no longer any doubts (not that you had any anyways) that Naruto is the "destined child." The "destined child" is singular, while Pain is a combination of many things. Lame? Yeah, I know, but like I said, I'm tired.

Conclusion

Congratulations. You've finally made it here.

Since I know firsthand that my post was rather confusing, this section is meant to tie everything together nicely and understandably. I'm basically going to summarize my main points. If you skipped everything up until now, you're in luck because everything is laid out here.

• The two legendary dojutsu--sharingan and byakugan both have English translations that deal with their appearance and/or function
• Therefore, I believe the rinnegan's translation also deals with it's purpose. The rinnegan translates to "transmigration eye." Transmigration has to do with reincarnation and the movement of the soul from one body in a past life to the next.
• Jiraiya at first cannot understand how his innocent student, Nagato, could become such a monster. But it's because that isn't Nagato anymore. It's Pain, someone who holds the memories of Nagato.
• The key difference between the rinnegan and other two major dojutsu is the fact that once the rinnegan is activated, it can't become unactivated, leading to a continual pathway between the transmigrationary cycle--a cycle of rebirth and death.
• Kishimoto is a tricky bastard--lol
• Because the rinnegan is a link between those who have lived in the past and Pain now, it is sentient in a certain sense of the word. Its link to others, most notably the Sage of the Six Paths, is what likely slowly transformed Nagato from the sweet child into part of the Pain we know now.
• This is likely where Pain's God complex comes from: it's not absurd to think he truly is a God. He shares a unique connection to the Sage of the Six paths and any others who shared the rinnegan. He describes his growth as an evolution into a God most likely because the rinnegan slowly took control of his being.
• Who is Pain as he exists currently? He is Nagato, Yahiko, and the rest of the bodies; he is the sage of the six paths, and he is anyone else who ever possessed the rinnegan . Who was Pain first? While it's a weird question, Pain was technically Rikudou Sennin first. This is where the "transmigration" part comes into play. Nagato as the child we knew was not the sage of the six paths, but the second the rinnegan was awakened within him, he became the Sage's reincarnation. The rennigan is partly sentient as I explained, but its main function is to serve as a link between the dead and the living (of those who've had the rinnegan).
• Look at the picture of Rikudou Sennin:
  Spoiler:

  
  (Chapter 373:3) and you will see two candles placed behind the sage. Why did Kishimoto include those random candles in the image? Allow me to quote something interesting from Wikipedia under rebirth:

  The lack of a fixed self does not mean lack of continuity. One of the metaphors used to illustrate this is that of fire. For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another. In the same way that it depends on the original fire, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next; they are not identical but neither are they completely distinct. The early Buddhist texts make it clear that there is no permanent consciousness that moves from life to life.

  Isn't that just dandy? Like the light passed between the candles, Rikudou is a part of the rinnegan and the transmigration process and thus a part of Nagato and Pain.
• Pain--as a sum of smaller parts--retains the memories of his individual lives
• The special metal piercings allow for Pain to control separate bodies. They provide a link between the individual bodies and the rinnegan, while the rinnegan provides a link between the individual bodies and each other. That's why Jiraiya felt the rinnegan when he was pierced by the metal--he felt the link between his individual body and the attempted control of the rinnegan.
• The Sage of the Six Paths, Nagato, and Pain are all connected. The rinnegan provides them a link in time.
• And, perhaps most importantly, Chikmagnet7 is the shit.

Secret Section?: A few Unanswered Questions

It was inevitable that I couldn't answer everything. I didn't try to. There are a bunch of things that need more explanation, more evidence, or simply possible answers. For instance, how did Pain get those bodies Jiraiya knows? And why did he specifically choose those ones? Truth be told, I don't know. I don't feel that I have the means to answer those questions just yet. But in time...all things will be known. If you have your own thoughts about these questions, please help me answer them.

Well, that's the end. If you read the whole thing, I'm extremely impressed. Feel free to offer your thoughts, comments, critiques, opinions, or whatever you want.

Thanks for reading, and have a nice day.

and remember,

Spoiler:

[Grimmjow]

That's alot of work you did there.

[chikmagnet7]

Originally Posted by Grimmjow

That's alot of work you did there.

Don't fuken joke around. This thread took 10 minutes to make.


Seriously, I have a feeling that it's just going to die cuz no1 will read it, even after all the hard work I put into it.

[Nic]

Who's plan is it to destroy the world. The rinnegan or the collection of all past lives and memories or if you consider them to be the same.

[Jesus]

Good job, and nice theory.

What I find confusing though is that you seem to imply that the Rinnegan emerged from nowhere, and took over these guys just like that?

For you, what is the role of Nagato in all this?

edit: and why do you call him Negato? ;)

[chikmagnet7]

Originally Posted by ng0001

Who's plan is it to destroy the world. The rinnegan or the collection of all past lives and memories or if you consider them to be the same.

It's Pain's. Read the thread for an understanding of who I think Pain is. Then you'll have your answer. Interesting question I must say

[Rikudou]

Nice research about the candles. That's about the only NEW thing you brought to Pain.
I disagree about Pain being a combination of different beings. His personality lacks the traits you describe.
Pain's personality is a perfect match with the orphan, Nagato, who was influenced by Yahiko's way of thinking. Pain is simply Nagato.
EVERY SINGLE element of his ambition to change the world can be explained by ONE life: Nagato. THAT is why it's highly illogical to assume there are more people who make up Pain. IF it were true, they didn't bring ANYTHING to his character, which is hard to believe, since the amount of generations between Rikudou and Nagato should be AT LEAST 10.

Nice try, but the general idea is farfetched and highly speculative.

[Gameboy]

Do i see the winning thread of the pain thread competition?

[Ninpo-Otaku]

Bush league!

[copycat123]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that (yes, read the whole thing).

It does make sense that the rinnegan could be a collection of personalities over time. And it would be interesting if it really turns out that Jiraya was really not even fighting a human foe, but a totally intangible force (rinnegan) that simply manifested in human shape and form.


The thing that sticks like a thorn is really what is Madara's role in all this. No, I am not implying anything about who should be the final villain or the relative power of doujutsus.

Pein's subservient attitude towards Madara always stands in stark contradiction to rinnegan's attributes.

[chikmagnet7]

Originally Posted by Rikudou

Nice research about the candles. That's about the only NEW thing you brought to Pain.
I disagree about Pain being a combination of different beings. His personality lacks the traits you describe.
Pain's personality is a perfect match with the orphan, Nagato, who was influenced by Yahiko's way of thinking. Pain is simply Nagato.
EVERY SINGLE element of his ambition to change the world can be explained by ONE life: Nagato. THAT is why it's highly illogical to assume there are more people who make up Pain. IF it were true, they didn't bring ANYTHING to his character, which is hard to believe, since the amount of generations between Rikudou and Nagato should be AT LEAST 10.

Nice try, but the general idea is farfetched and highly speculative.

I disagree. I don't want to go into the argument that simply being Negato would be anticlimactic and that it would ignore the foundation of the rinnegan's meaning within Kishi's style. But besides those, I don't disagree that Pain was originally Negato. What I'm saying is that once he awakened the rinnegan, he changed. Whereas you would assume that Negato's personality changed after being influenced by Yahiko, I would say that it's more likely that it was influenced by Yahiko and the Sage of the Six Paths once the Rinnegan began to take over. Other than that, I don't see any criticism, so...

[Nic]

Originally Posted by chikmagnet7

It's Pain's. Read the thread for an understanding of who I think Pain is. Then you'll have your answer. Interesting question I must say

I'm sorry I forgot the Part where you said that Pein was the Rin'negan. You made a long thread and I couldn't remember everything you said.

It really was a great thread.

[kayanathera]

sorry but where exactly pain says that he poseses rinnegan?nowhere.jirayia makes that suposition but only about nagato and and remember that he himself has never seen one before.pain never says that he has rinnegan.so untill we have proof that this is indeed the rinnegan lets stop saying that pain has it

[TAABS]

Dude I read till part 3 awesome theory man.I never even noticed the small things you mentioned like Kishimato not showing Nagatos eyes Way to go

I will complete the whole thread as soon as possible

( I am a very jumpy person can't seem to read some thing like this for long because wheels start turning in my head coming with all sorts of ideas )

[Nic]

Originally Posted by kayanathera

sorry but where exactly pain says that he poseses rinnegan?nowhere.jirayia makes that suposition but only about nagato and and remember that he himself has never seen one before.pain never says that he has rinnegan.so untill we have proof that this is indeed the rinnegan lets stop saying that pain has it

because he has the same eyes as Nagato and it would be bad plot development if we found out that Pein didn't possess the Rin'negan.

[korpus]

It was a great read and a good theory, but for gods sake, it's NAGATO

Also, some of the pictures wasn't working. Atleast not for me, might want to check that out. Good luck in the competition though

[Felix]

Fuckin-A class thread
Good job Chik

[chikmagnet7]

Originally Posted by Ninpo-Otaku

Bush league!

What's that mean?

Originally Posted by Gameboy

Do i see the winning thread of the pain thread competition?

Naw, yours will beat mine probably

Originally Posted by copycat123

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that (yes, read the whole thing).

It does make sense that the rinnegan could be a collection of personalities over time. And it would be interesting if it really turns out that Jiraya was really not even fighting a human foe, but a totally intangible force (rinnegan) that simply manifested in human shape and form.


The thing that sticks like a thorn is really what is Madara's role in all this. No, I am not implying anything about who should be the final villain or the relative power of doujutsus.

Pein's subservient attitude towards Madara always stands in stark contradiction to rinnegan's attributes.

Absolutely right. And that's one of the things that makes no sense to me. Pain calls himself a God. Yet he seems to serve Madara. That right there is an immense contradiction that needs to be handled by Kishi. I'm hoping either Madara and Pain are equals or Pain is secretly planning to backstab Madara later on.

Congrats on reading the whole thing

Originally Posted by TAABS

Dude I read till part 3 awesome theory man.I never even noticed the small things you mentioned like Kishimato not showing Nagatos eyes Way to go

I will complete the whole thread as soon as possible

( I am a very jumpy person can't seem to read some thing like this for long because wheels start turning in my head coming with all sorts of ideas )

I can see you are very jump I'm glad you read part three, but give one and two a read through. They're all important. Thanks for the comment.

Originally Posted by kayanathera

sorry but where exactly pain says that he poseses rinnegan?nowhere.jirayia makes that suposition but only about nagato and and remember that he himself has never seen one before.pain never says that he has rinnegan.so untill we have proof that this is indeed the rinnegan lets stop saying that pain has it

Hmm, so you don't think that Pain has the rinnegan then? What is the ripple like pattern in his eyes then? I think for all intents and purposes of the manga, it can be conlcuded that Pain has the rinnegan.

Originally Posted by korpus

It was a great read and a good theory, but for gods sake, it's NAGATO

Also, some of the pictures wasn't working. Atleast not for me, might want to check that out. Good luck in the competition though

you complimented me, but you disagree? Tell me where and why you disagree. I didn't include this in the thread, but I think Pain turning out to be Negato would be totally anticlimactic for obvious reasons (Jiraiya already thought that, then after that he had a revelation). Kishi has so many options here. He better use what he has in front of him.