Itachi & Kisame v Legendary Three

[Illusory]

Location: Giant Lake
Distance: 5 Meters
Mindset: Bloodlusted
Knowledge: Mutual, NO knowledge

Before you decide I ask that everyone read this as it contains many crucial points that some people overlook so as to say that the Sanin rapestomp. Inside I provided links in that post to Suu's analysis and my short clarifications that hit just about every inconsistency on the head without further propagating the argument.

Note that Itachi is healthy and the difference is approximately as drastic, if not more so, than the health and consequent skill difference between the Old Sarutobi and Prime Saindaime so stamina should not be quite as large an issue as it normally would be. Kisame has three times the chakra and overall ability than he showed against Gai. Anyways, here are the scenarios:

[Kinjishi]

Not much of an improvement from your last thread mang.

[Illusory]

Read my link and think it over. Also, consider the consequences of having no knowledge whatsoever of Itachi's abilities. A sound mind can see that this is no easy match considering that two of the most powerful Sanin have either been trolled by Itachi or been in the perfect situations, staring in to his eyes, to be trolled by Itachi. Kisame is a factor I loathe to add as it is the smug comments from others speaking down on us deranged members who believe that Itachi can, in some circumstances, defeat the three Sanin that I wish to address.

[Cyphon]

Based on Kisame's display so far he is taken out rather comfortably by either Oro or Jiraiya and maybe even Tsunade.

The other 2 Sannin force Itachi to pull out Susanoo which may or may not be that effective on a lake.

He could get lucky and hit them both, but it is a long shot.

If Kisame proves to be a much bigger force they have a chance.

[Hidden Nin]

Spoiler:

I think people should hold off on discussion until next chapter. You can check spoilers if you want, but Kisame does work in the next chapter. And Samehada's true form is unveiled.

470 spoiler, so watch the fuck out, and don't press if you want to be unsoiled.

[Turrin]

I treally depends on if Kisame can take down both Tsunade and Orochimaru(who should have excellent team work), which remains to be seen. Jiraiya and Itachi should kill one another or at least the battle would be very close. I also don't agree with the comparison of Sarutobi(old) - Sarutobi(Prime) to Itachi(Sick) - Itachi(Healthy).

The other points you brought up in you discussion with Suu i will get to when i have a chance. For now i will say its possible Kisame/Itachi take this, but the Sannin Also can at least till we see more from Kisame.

[Kinjishi]

Originally Posted by Turrin

I treally depends on if Kisame can take down both Tsunade and Orochimaru(who should have excellent team work), which remains to be seen. Jiraiya and Itachi should kill one another or at least the battle would be very close. I also don't agree with the comparison of Sarutobi(old) - Sarutobi(Prime) to Itachi(Sick) - Itachi(Healthy).

The other points you brought up in you discussion with Suu i will get to when i have a chance. For now i will say its possible Kisame/Itachi take this, but the Sannin Also can at least till we see more from the Sannin.

Two of them are dead, the other is on the brink of it. I don't think we'll be seeing much more from the Sannin.

[Turrin]

Two of them are dead, the other is on the brink of it. I don't think we'll be seeing much more from the Sannin.

my bad typo. meant kisame

[Illusory]

Originally Posted by Turrin

I also don't agree with the comparison of Sarutobi(old) - Sarutobi(Prime) to Itachi(Sick) - Itachi(Healthy).

Knowing your notorious stances on Konan > Itachi or Zetsu > Itachi I'm not horribly surprised, but I'm morbidly curious. Save us both the time of commentating on the conversation between Suu and I, in my short time here I've heard enough flawed responses from people of your opinion that Itachi is sub-par and would really rather not debate in circles with someone like you. So lets instead concentrate on this quotation in particular.

How is the old Saindaime who had many years of natural life left to live and quite lethal possibly compare to Itachi who was already heavily reliant on medicine to prolong his life and aiming to exhaust, not kill? If anything, Itachi is closer to Orochimaru's handicapped state against Sasuke than Sarutobi's mere age. I made it analogous to the Saindaime to appeal to the Itachi dissidents on the forum.

In any case, Jiraiya won't be holding off Itachi at that distance without any knowledge of his techniques. In all likeliness he will go down to Tsukiyomi as it's canon that he stares Itachi in the face. Jiraiya is simply below Itachi in almost any scenario, even with the advantage in knowledge and starting in Hermit Mode. The majority of the forum seems to be making this transition as it becomes more and more obvious that he is more closely paralleled to Minato and, to a lesser degree, Pein.

[Turrin]

Knowing your notorious stances on Konan > Itachi or Zetsu > Itachi I'm not horribly surprised, but I'm morbidly curious.

I believe you don't know my stances by the fact that i never Said Konan > Itachi. Being able to possibly beat some one because your the perfect foil to their abilities is not being greater then some one.

And as for Zetsu until some one presents a credibly way for Itachi to actually detect Zetsu or there is a weakness to Zetsu's Kagero Techniques exposed in the manga the most logical thing to conclude is that Zetsu is probably stronger then Itachi or at least a bad match up for him.

On a Side not i really can't stand people who believe that Zetsu got to his position of being Madara's right hand man w/o any abilities in combat.

Save us both the time of commentating on the conversation between Suu and I

Though i did think a-lot of your points were flawed, i was impressed that you used scans to support your argument and put it ins such a articulated way, which is why i felt the need to respond to it. But if your not going to listen to another credibly view point then i guess i won't bother as per your suggestion.

I've heard enough flawed responses from people of your opinion that Itachi is sub-par and would really rather not debate in circles with someone like you.

I really don't see why people think me comparing Itachi to the likes of Sasori, Jiraiya, and Raikage means that i hold the opinion that he is sub par when he is only 21 years old, but whatever floats your boat.

How is the old Saindaime who had many years of natural life left to live and quite lethal possibly compare to Itachi who was already heavily reliant on medicine to prolong his life

Itachi did not show any sign of the sickness effecting him until after the Second Ameretsu usage. Meaning that the symptoms probably show up when Itachi strains himself and his Stamina. Which is a big Disadvantage i agree, more so then most people are willing to admit when they match a sick Itachi against other enemies, but i don't think it compares to what the manga implies Sarutobi's Age did to him.

One Example would be that Sarutobi was stated as a man who frequently would use Kage Bushin, yet it he was so hampered by age he couldn't even use the Technique effectively in battle anymore. Both Oro and Anbu Comment about this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/14/

Orochimaru even goes as far to say that even using two Kage Bushin has shortened Sarutobi's life spand:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/11/

Honestly Itachi's illness may have been quite the handy-cap, but Itachi wasn't so limited that he could barely produce Techniques on the chakra level of Kage Bushin nor was he ever so limited that he couldn't produce more then two Kage bushin. Nor was he so limited that producing kage bushin was ever marked as such a draining techniques for him that it would shorten his life spand.

Also we get the Remark From Sarutobi himself about how his Power has waned stating that he can't believe Enma's staff is so heavy. Did Itachi really look like he would struggle with wielding Enma Staff because of his illness to such a degree.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/15/

After Sarutobi's short Ninjutsu exchange with the Kage Oro remarks that Sarutobi's out of breath and looks tired and it can be plaining seen. Did Itachi ever show that he would be out of breath and strained from such a short exchange due to his illness? Sarutobi literally used some Taijutsu wielding Enma Staff, a Katon, Summoning Enma, and a Doton and he was noticeably strained from the effort. This is something that Itachi could easily accomplish w/o becoming strained even with illness:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/16/

Even Orochimaru suggest an huge difference in Sarutobi who he says was once hailed as the God of Shinobi, but is now tired out easily. The Data-book also shows a large gap in strength saying that if Sarutobi had been only 10 years younger things would have gone differently in his battle with Orochimaru changing the very outcome of the fight.

So Yes i believe Sarutobi's Age restricted him more heavily then Itachi's illness. We have it showing far more adverse effects on Sarutobi's Endurance/Stamina, Ability to use Ninjutsu, and Physical Strength then Itachi's illness did. And we have Sarutobi's hype as being superior to all 5 Kage and all previous Hokage including Shodai when in his prime to the fact that he could barely hold a decent ninjutsu exchange with Oro's Tensi for a few minutes

and aiming to exhaust, not kill?

I don't think i ever stated anything about Killer Intent. I believe i just said that Itachi's Illness is not comparable to Sarutobi's Age.

If anything, Itachi is closer to Orochimaru's handicapped state against Sasuke than Sarutobi's mere age.

Not in anyway is itachi comparable to Orochimaru. Oro was in a bed and could barely move and in an incredibly amount of Pain, hacking and coughing up blood w/o even doing anything to provoke such a fit, ,sweating prefusely and needing the strongest dose of his medicine right away:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/343/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/343/13/

As Appose to Itachi who was able to fight and move around like a Taijutsu wiz w/o showing any negative effects. Only after using Tsukuyomi and 2 Ameretsu did he show negative and even then he was not to the point where he was bedridden and could not stop his coughing.

In any case, Jiraiya won't be holding off Itachi at that distance without any knowledge of his techniques. In all likeliness he will go down to Tsukiyomi as it's canon that he stares Itachi in the face.

I honestly didn't see the No Knowledge thing. Then your probably Right that Jiriaya would loose to Itachi. However i think the thread is pretty Biased when you take away a shinobi's knowledge as Knowledge is part of a Shinobi's Abilities and Strength even according to the Author himself.

So Yeah its pretty one sided if you take away Knowledge and then have Itachi in his prime form against Jiraiya. I think the fair thing to do would at least let both be in their prime form. Have Itachi healthy and both have their knowledge from the manga, but if you want to just present a rigged match up thats your own choice.

Jiraiya is simply below Itachi in almost any scenario, even with the advantage in knowledge and starting in Hermit Mode.

I disagree and if Jiraiya started in HM that would give him just far to great of an advantage for Itachi to overcome.

The majority of the forum seems to be making this transition as it becomes more and more obvious that he is more closely paralleled to Minato and, to a lesser degree, Pein.

The Polls usually indicate that the majority of the forum believes Jiriaya is superior to Itachi so i really don't think you have you facts straight. And i don't think Minato is even close to being as great of a parallel to Itachi as Jiraiya at least not yet. I am open to Itachi being > then Jiraiya and it wouldn't shock me if it happened, but at this point its pretty much reliant on what power Itachi gave to Naruto that will show who Itachi parallels more. As it stands though i think there is a very strong parallel to between Jiraiya and Itachi at this point in the manga for several very clear reason, that i won't get into in this thread.

And the Parallel to Pain is completely unsubstantiated. I don't even get how such a parallel could be made when both characters have nothing to do with one another other then being powerful members of Akatsuki.

[Peaceful Uchiha]

What? Kisame and Itachi are power houses. Itachi pwns Orochimaru with Genjutsu.

Kisame can take on Tsunade and win easily and that leaves Itachi and Kisame vs Jiraiya. Thats a rapestomp/

[Kinjishi]

Originally Posted by Peaceful Uchiha

What? Kisame and Itachi are power houses. Itachi pwns Orochimaru with Genjutsu.

Kisame can take on Tsunade and win easily and that leaves Itachi and Kisame vs Jiraiya. Thats a rapestomp/

So while Itachi and Kisame were taking out Orochimaru and Tsunade, what exactly was Jiraiya doing? Did he miss the bus to the match and arrive late?

[godtachi]

Originally Posted by Peaceful Uchiha

What? Kisame and Itachi are power houses. Itachi pwns Orochimaru with Genjutsu.

Kisame can take on Tsunade and win easily and that leaves Itachi and Kisame vs Jiraiya. Thats a rapestomp/

Basically this

[Cyphon]

Originally Posted by godtachi

Basically this

Basically this ...........

Originally Posted by Kinjishi

So while Itachi and Kisame were taking out Orochimaru and Tsunade, what exactly was Jiraiya doing? Did he miss the bus to the match and arrive late?

[godtachi]

Originally Posted by Kinjishi

So while Itachi and Kisame were taking out Orochimaru and Tsunade, what exactly was Jiraiya doing? Did he miss the bus to the match and arrive late?

As the match starts, Itachi will have put Orochimaru in a genjutsu, Oro then attacks Jiraiya(like what happend with deidara).Itachi can then slice Orochimaru's throat with a kunai, while Jiraiya trying to reason his fellow.Then It will be iTACHI VS Jiraiya: if the latter dosen't fall for a genjutsu( i don't see any reason he doesn't) then Itachi will start pushing him to his limits by using fast hand seals with speed and basic ninjutsu so that Jiraiya doesn't enter HM( i think that Itachi has knowledge of HM since Shikaku knew it).So then after Kisame pwns Tsunade he comes and help defeat Jiraiya.So team Itachi wins easily and Itachi didn't even have to use MS

[Suu]

Originally Posted by godtachi

As the match starts, Itachi will have put Orochimaru in a genjutsu,

Is Orochimaru really going to fall for the same trick twice?

He'll know to avoid Itachi's eyes. In fact, he'll know to avoid directly facing Itachi in general; things like Kage Bunshin and Leech All Creation can help him avoid genjutsu. Hell, something massive that blocks line of sight (summoning, anyone?) can achieve this.

Furthermore, even if he does get caught in genjutsu, he's got partners with him this time to break him out.

Itachi can then slice Orochimaru's throat with a kunai,

Should I be taking your post seriously anymore?

Orochimaru is one of the most resilient characters in the Narutoverse. He got sliced to bits by Sasuke, yet in the end we discover he was only feigning death, and that Sasuke had been playing into his 'poisonous vapours' trap the entire time.

His reaction to getting pierced through the chest is also a testament to this (that is, before he realised the genjutsu properties of the Sword of Totsuga), laughing it off as if it could do nothing. He also took on a Tsunade punch straight to the face without dying.

Lastly, oral rebirth anyone?

while Jiraiya trying to reason his fellow.

The Sannin aren't that stupid. They've got decades worth of teamwork under their belt; do you really think the three have never encountered a genjutsu-user before?

I'm pretty sure Jiraiya and Tsunade will realise what sort of predicament Orochimaru is in the moment he falls under the spell of the genjutsu. Jiraiya won't waste time and effort "reasoning with his team-mate".

So then after Kisame pwns Tsunade he comes and help defeat Jiraiya.So team Itachi wins easily and Itachi didn't even have to use MS

Problem here is, Kisame literally can't do anything to Tsunade as long as she has Genesis Rebirth up. She can basically stall him/negate him for as long as her jutsu lasts, keeping him from helping Itachi out.

And don't underestimate how dangerous Tsunade is in close-quarters. Her taijutsu skill, years of experience, resilience and constant regeneration will allow her to take on damage, ignore it, and counter-attack to kill. Especially if Katsuyu is backing her up, spraying acid all over the place to force Kisame to preoccupy himself dodging, it won't be difficult for Tsunade to find an opening.

Throw in the fact that it takes very minimal effort for Orochimaru or Jiraiya to throw some lesser summons (albeit large and powerful ones nonetheless) Tsunade's way to aid her, and I'm pretty sure she can best Kisame eventually.

[godtachi]

Originally Posted by Suu

And don't underestimate how dangerous Tsunade is in close-quarters. Her taijutsu skill, years of experience, resilience and constant regeneration will allow her to take on damage, ignore it, and counter-attack to kill. Especially if Katsuyu is backing her up, spraying acid all over the place to force Kisame to preoccupy himself dodging, it won't be difficult for Tsunade to find an opening.

Throw in the fact that it takes very minimal effort for Orochimaru or Jiraiya to throw some lesser summons (albeit large and powerful ones nonetheless) Tsunade's way to aid her, and I'm pretty sure she can best Kisame eventually.

Am i smelling some bias towards tsunade??Do you really think that the bijuu crusher that is Kisame will die like this.When she sees the manliness in Kisame's 'sword', she will turn against Oro and Jiraiya for being such failures.
Joke aside, Kisame did beat the 4 tails jinchuuriki,who had many elementals, so avoiding Katsuyu's attacks won't be a problem.Tsunade is nothing compared to HACHIBI in strenghtwise and speedwise, and we all assume that Kisame will put up a good fight against him,which'll put him tiers above Tsunade.

[Suu]

Originally Posted by godtachi

Am i smelling some bias towards tsunade??Do you really think that the bijuu crusher that is Kisame will die like this.When she sees the manliness in Kisame's 'sword', she will turn against Oro and Jiraiya for being such failures.
Joke aside, Kisame did beat the 4 tails jinchuuriki,who had many elementals, so avoiding Katsuyu's attacks won't be a problem.Tsunade is nothing compared to HACHIBI in strenghtwise and speedwise, and we all assume that Kisame will put up a good fight against him,which'll put him tiers above Tsunade.

Come back to me with some real arguments, kid.

[godtachi]

Originally Posted by Suu

Come back to me with some real arguments, kid.

Okay, granny.Here are my arguments:
1.Tsunade is such a failure that she couldn't even beat Kabuto in part one, and don't bring me the blood phobia crap, because he was faster, smarter...in their encounter
2.Tsunade is tier 3 speed, although her taijutsu and strenght are 5, but she can't do shit to kisame since he's a powerhouse, like her.He's even faster than her. If you think she can land a hit on him, i'm really sorry for ya
3.Tsunade hasn't shown any noticeable ninjutsu feat, so all Kisame has to do is to drown her with his suiton ninjutsu.
4.She's shown nothing in genjutsu, so there's nothing she can do to Kisame in that field
5.Tsunade is a female in Kishi's manga, and Kisame is the manliest character. Do you really believe now she could beat Kisame???

[Watchman]

Originally Posted by Illusory

Note that Itachi is healthy and the difference is approximately as drastic, if not more so, than the health and consequent skill difference between the Old Sarutobi and Prime Saindaime

lolwat? Prime Sarutobi was noted as the strongest Hokage - aka stronger than the guy who defeated the most powerful Uchiha ever multiple times. There is a vast difference between Prime->Old Sarutobi and Healthy->Sick Itachi

so stamina should not be quite as large an issue as it normally would be. Kisame has three times the chakra and overall ability than he showed against Gai. Anyways, here are the scenarios:

Oh dear, not this silly "Shoten Clones only have 30% of the physical abilities of the original" nonsense again. This has been refuted several times, and I'm not going to entertain that delusion. Until Kisame shows that he is three times as fast/strong as his Shoten clone, he doesn't get any boost.

In any case, the Sannin still win. Any one of them can quite easily take out Kisame, and any other combination of two is enough to take down Itachi. I'll go into more detail when the inevitable Itachitard swarm descends upon this thread, but right now anything I say will be ignored by them, so I'll save it for later.

Originally Posted by godtachi

As the match starts, Itachi will have put Orochimaru in a genjutsu

Even if he does, Orochimaru has shown the ability to escape Itachi's Genjutsu.

Itachi can then slice Orochimaru's throat with a kunai, while Jiraiya trying to reason his fellow.

Kill Orochimaru by slicing his throat? LOL You've just lost the match right here. Orochimaru shrugs off being torn in two. Without knowledge, Itachi thinks he's killed Orochimaru, turns to face Jiraiya, and BAMKUSANAGITOTHESKULL.

Then It will be iTACHI VS Jiraiya: if the latter dosen't fall for a genjutsu( i don't see any reason he doesn't) then Itachi will start pushing him to his limits by using fast hand seals with speed and basic ninjutsu so that Jiraiya doesn't enter HM( i think that Itachi has knowledge of HM since Shikaku knew it).

OP explicitly says "no knowledge", so Itachi has no knowledge of SM. Furthermore, "fast hand seals and basic ninjutsu" is all well and good, but none of Itachi's basic ninjutsu is going to take Jiraiya down. All that will happen with that is a stalemate between the two of them.

Of course, Orochimaru's not out of the game, even in your scenario, so it's more like Itachi struggling to survive as two fighters who are just below him in terms of power continuously attack him.

So then after Kisame pwns Tsunade

Excuse me whilst I laugh.

Tsunade crushes Kisame so badly it's not even funny. She can tank anything he hits her with, and a single blow from her will likely kill him - if Asa Kujaku was enough to put an end to his Shoten, Tsunade's casual castle-wall-busting punches are going to screw him up. Alternatively, she might use Ranshinsho, and a paralysed Kisame is taken out of the game that way.

Either way, a sword that shaves means nothing to a good medic-nin, let alone someone who has a nifty little regenerating power.

he comes and help defeat Jiraiya.So team Itachi wins easily and Itachi didn't even have to use MS

So, let's see what we've got, even with your scenario: Itachi struggling to survive against Orochimaru and Jiraiya, and Tsunade having taken out Kisame with very little difficulty.

Why, I think we've got ourselves another Sannin vs. Itachi matchup! And we all know how that turns out - with Itachi getting a thorough beating.