Manga Feats OR Manga Statements ?

[Cyphon]

As for my actual answer to the thread.

Feats > statements.

Both should be used to make logical assessments but statements leave far too much in the air. We have liars, people who exaggerate the truth or simply people who may respect another character too much.

While feats also have more than 1 thing we must consider, they are generally a lot closer to black and white than statements.

I could say I am faster than somebody and it means nothing. If you see us race on equal grounds and I win then you KNOW I am faster than someone.

That is where feats truly shine over statements.

The main flaw with feats (especially in Naruto) is that there is almost something that can be brought into question. Was he at full health? Was he out to kill? What were his true intentions? etc...

[Inu-Sennin]

Originally Posted by Cyphon

It was actually stated that he had a counter for every jutsu in Konoha.

oh...

This is where your thread starts to really lose value.

why? it's just my own opinion.

1. Oro and Jiraiya were never considered or stated to be equals. They both merely hold the same title, but that is no different than all of the Hokage's holding the same title and as you said above, they are certainly not all equal.

they were rivals like sasuke and naruto.those two are close in power just like orochimaru and jiraiya.infact the manga kinda points to them being equal or orochimaru being superior.

2. ABC logic doesn't work in this manga. Itachi beating Oro proves.....well, that Itachi > Oro and nothing else.

thats not what i was trying to do.

You can't use that to compare him to a completely different fighter who is also arguably stronger.

well actually manga points to orchimaru being stronger, but okay...

There was never anything showing they looked each other dead in the eye. There are 2 separate panels of each of their eyes. Usually that is done to show intensity of the situation and all that.

well it sure as hell looked like they were eye to eye to me. even if they were not, itachi could have just as easily used amaterasu on him instead of the toad.

Either way it means nothing as we don't know how easily Jiraiya can break the genjutsu or how prepared he was even if he were caught.

we know that he cannot break tsukuyomi.

Your BIG mistake here is that you are talking about all offensive genjutsu use. Fighting genjutsu has nothing to do with being able to use it.

jiriaya has shown no feat that he would be able to break free from itachi's genjutsu before being killed.i have no doubt he can break free from itachi's basic sharingan genjutsu and finger genjutsu. it's whether he can recognize that he's in one in time, and break free from it in time also. and itachi being faster and liking to end things quickly does not make the situation any better.

So everything you brought up is irrelevant to how well Jiraiya would do if placed in a genjutsu.

so explain how jiraiya would do against tsukuyomi.

This I fully agree with.

glad we can agree.

[Kusogitsune]

Originally Posted by Reznor

Kabuto > Tsunade isn't established by that either.

Originally Posted by Bartallen2

The concept of Transitive Relation prevents the claim of Kakashi > Tsunade coming to fruiton based on Tsuande's preformance against Kabuto.

True, but if I went into that, my post would've been too long and unreadable.

[Cyphon]

Originally Posted by Inu-Sennin

why? it's just my own opinion.

You stated it as if it were fact while providing no proof of it.

they were rivals like sasuke and naruto.those two are close in power just like orochimaru and jiraiya.infact the manga kinda points to them being equal or orochimaru being superior.

Lee and Neji are rivals as well and Neji is well beyond Lee. Rivals means nothing, we are talking about actual skill level.

And the manga has never stated anything that shows decisively where either stand. If anything I would argue it makes Jiraiya look far stronger as we have most of Akutsuki basically disrespecting Oro, we have Itachi stomp Oro yet claim Jiraiya is dangerous and we have Jiraiya take on the Akutsuki leader while Oro loses to his student.

well actually manga points to orchimaru being stronger, but okay...

See above.

well it sure as hell looked like they were eye to eye to me. even if they were not, itachi could have just as easily used amaterasu on him instead of the toad.

And Jiraiya could have just as easily used Yomi Numa. What is your point exactly?

we know that he cannot break tsukuyomi.

While it IS likely, we don't KNOW he couldn't break it.

jiriaya has shown no feat that he would be able to break free from itachi's genjutsu before being killed.i have no doubt he can break free from itachi's basic sharingan genjutsu and finger genjutsu. it's whether he can recognize that he's in one in time, and break free from it in time also. and itachi being faster and liking to end things quickly does not make the situation any better.

Again, not really the point. You made it seem as if he has shown some weakness to genjutsu or something, but it was never implied or shown.

so explain how jiraiya would do against tsukuyomi.

Not sure what this will accomplish. Show me proof that Jiraiya would surely be caught.

All you are doing here is picking 1 technique you think is effective and asking how Jiraiya can counter it.

What happens if Jiraiya pokes Itachi's eyes out? Then what can he do?

We can all ask a bunch of questions like that. It doesn't really help us solve much though.

[Esponer]

Lately I've come to feel that the near-obsession we have with the 'manga feat' over implied power scaling is flawed, because we assume that a 'feat' is infallible when it's not.

First, consider the idea of a speed feat. A true speed feat would actually be calculable, but they generally aren't in a manga. Almost every speed feat calculation you'll see is extremely flawed for one or (usually) both of two main reasons:

1. The calculation at some point assumes known human reaction times or known human standards apply to some other ninja.
2. The calculation assumes Kishimoto has written his manga in such a consistent manner that these calculations are possible.

Still, worse than either of these is that people don't know how to interpret a speed feat. For most of Part II most people believed that Sasuke was in the top tier of speed because he could do this to an exhausted Naruto. What very few people understood was that a 'flash' of movement like shunshin doesn't correspond to the speed at which you attack or defend. It was a foolish misunderstanding considering that Sai could use a flash of movement to cover several metres to block Sasuke's sword strike before he could move his sword a foot.

Obsession with the idea of a feat has convinced everyone that there's an enormous gap in speed between a regular jōnin and a Kage-slaying speedy type, but looking away from isolated flashes of movement and at the actual content of battles, the picture couldn't be any more different. I'll say it again: looking away from isolated flashes of movement and at the actual content of battles, it's clear that these massive 'blitzing' speed differences just don't exist (at least amongst high chūnin and jōnin).

Why is Kakuzu super fast because of his speed feat, but this is brushed under the carpet?

A 'manga feat' has become a piece of propaganda, and believing in these isolated flashes of movement as determining who would win in a fight causes us to overlook people who, quite frankly, just don't look as sexy and 'swooshy'. A piece of speed feat propaganda looks a lot more impressive if you look swooshy while doing it. Chiyo's and Kankurō's speed will be underrated forever because they don't look swooshy when they do things like this or this. (Yes – Chiyo is considered a 'slow old hag' despite reacting to a supersonic attack, and Kankurō is considered slow and worthless despite, as a puppeteer whose style is weak to taijutsu types, demolishing the strongest of the Sound Four in two moves and escaping his sneak attack from a metre away. They just don't look swooshy, you know?)

Really, we think too much about throwing a ">" between two character names. Why do we assume that it's even possible to do this? Why do we assume that it's decided by who has the swooshiest-seeming speed feat, rather than on the whole sense of power scaling the manga has conveyed?

The manga statement obviously isn't 100% reliable either. We should take these into account, as well as the swooshy flashes of movement that epitomise the 'manga feat', but on top of that we should take into account the everyday performance ninja display fighting each other. It's foolish to completely ignore any manga statement, however. The manga has made it clear that Hiruzen was extremely strong and there's no logic in ignoring that. He might not have displayed all that power, but that doesn't make it untrue.

[Death Note]

Originally Posted by Esponer

Lately I've come to feel that the near-obsession we have with the 'manga feat' over implied power scaling is flawed, because we assume that a 'feat' is infallible when it's not.

First, consider the idea of a speed feat. A true speed feat would actually be calculable, but they generally aren't in a manga. Almost every speed feat calculation you'll see is extremely flawed for one or (usually) both of two main reasons:

1. The calculation at some point assumes known human reaction times or known human standards apply to some other ninja.
2. The calculation assumes Kishimoto has written his manga in such a consistent manner that these calculations are possible.

Still, worse than either of these is that people don't know how to interpret a speed feat. For most of Part II most people believed that Sasuke was in the top tier of speed because he could do this to an exhausted Naruto. What very few people understood was that a 'flash' of movement like shunshin doesn't correspond to the speed at which you attack or defend. It was a foolish misunderstanding considering that Sai could use a flash of movement to cover several metres to block Sasuke's sword strike before he could move his sword a foot.

Obsession with the idea of a feat has convinced everyone that there's an enormous gap in speed between a regular jōnin and a Kage-slaying speedy type, but looking away from isolated flashes of movement and at the actual content of battles, the picture couldn't be any more different. I'll say it again: looking away from isolated flashes of movement and at the actual content of battles, it's clear that these massive 'blitzing' speed differences just don't exist (at least amongst high chūnin and jōnin).

Why is Kakuzu super fast because of his speed feat, but this is brushed under the carpet?

A 'manga feat' has become a piece of propaganda, and believing in these isolated flashes of movement as determining who would win in a fight causes us to overlook people who, quite frankly, just don't look as sexy and 'swooshy'. A piece of speed feat propaganda looks a lot more impressive if you look swooshy while doing it. Chiyo's and Kankurō's speed will be underrated forever because they don't look swooshy when they do things like this or this. (Yes – Chiyo is considered a 'slow old hag' despite reacting to a supersonic attack, and Kankurō is considered slow and worthless despite, as a puppeteer whose style is weak to taijutsu types, demolishing the strongest of the Sound Four in two moves and escaping his sneak attack from a metre away. They just don't look swooshy, you know?)

Really, we think too much about throwing a ">" between two character names. Why do we assume that it's even possible to do this? Why do we assume that it's decided by who has the swooshiest-seeming speed feat, rather than on the whole sense of power scaling the manga has conveyed?

The manga statement obviously isn't 100% reliable either. We should take these into account, as well as the swooshy flashes of movement that epitomise the 'manga feat', but on top of that we should take into account the everyday performance ninja display fighting each other. It's foolish to completely ignore any manga statement, however. The manga has made it clear that Hiruzen was extremely strong and there's no logic in ignoring that. He might not have displayed all that power, but that doesn't make it untrue.

-applauds- ...

[Inu-Sennin]

Originally Posted by Cyphon

Lee and Neji are rivals as well and Neji is well beyond Lee. Rivals means nothing, we are talking about actual skill level.

And the manga has never stated anything that shows decisively where either stand. If anything I would argue it makes Jiraiya look far stronger as we have most of Akutsuki basically disrespecting Oro, we have Itachi stomp Oro yet claim Jiraiya is dangerous and we have Jiraiya take on the Akutsuki leader while Oro loses to his student.

orochimaru lost to jiraiya twice, though i admit that jiraiya could have probably been holding back, but there is not enough evidence to say this.
orchimaru was held in higher regard by sandiame than jiraiya was.

And Jiraiya could have just as easily used Yomi Numa. What is your point exactly?

speed of amaterasu > speed of yomi numa. not to mention itachi didn't feel the need to focus on jiraiya. he still turned his back on him, and proceeded to waste massive chakra on sasuke with tsukuyomi like jiraiya was not even a threat.if jiraiya was a serious threat to him, don't you think it would be logical not to turn your back on him, and not waste precious chakra when their is a big bad threat that you may need it on?

While it IS likely, we don't KNOW he couldn't break it.

but he has shown nothing to prove he can.

Again, not really the point. You made it seem as if he has shown some weakness to genjutsu or something, but it was never implied or shown.

but my point was could he recognize he's in the genutsu in time before itachi blitzes him and slit his throat?

Not sure what this will accomplish. Show me proof that Jiraiya would surely be caught.

well there is a panel in the manga were he was looking in his eyes, but you deny this so there is no point in me arguing this.

All you are doing here is picking 1 technique you think is effective and asking how Jiraiya can counter it.

if he has shown no counter to that one jutsu then whats wrong with doing it?

What happens if Jiraiya pokes Itachi's eyes out? Then what can he do?

awesome scenario. to bad he hasn't shown the speed to prove he can do it.

[Cyphon]

Originally Posted by Inu-Sennin

orochimaru lost to jiraiya twice, though i admit that jiraiya could have probably been holding back, but there is not enough evidence to say this.

Doesn't that just prove my point.

orchimaru was held in higher regard by sandiame than jiraiya was.

I have been looking for this throughout the manga. Can you show me where this was stated please.

speed of amaterasu > speed of yomi numa.

Yomi Numa is 1 seal and Amaterasu sometimes requires a build up. Not sure how, why or when, but generally I would say Yomi Numa is quicker.

Especially in that scenario where Jiraiya wasn't even in the picture initially. He could have just attacked them both and killed them from behind.

not to mention itachi didn't feel the need to focus on jiraiya. he still turned his back on him, and proceeded to waste massive chakra on sasuke with tsukuyomi like jiraiya was not even a threat.

1. Jiraiya showed up in front of both of them showing off and doing a pose.

2. Kisame was there to watch Itachi's back. Even if Kisame couldn't beat Jiraiya he would at least be enough to stall him while Itachi turns around to help.

if jiraiya was a serious threat to him, don't you think it would be logical not to turn your back on him, and not waste precious chakra when their is a big bad threat that you may need it on?

See above.

To add to it though.

Sasuke was Itachi's main goal and he showed he was willing to risk his life to help him. A. Simply by entering Konoha, B. By turning his back to Jiraiya and C. Actually letting Sasuke kill him.

but he has shown nothing to prove he can.

He is one of the only characters to actually bring up something to fight genjutsu and has no stated weakness.

So can you prove he would definitely lose to it? Because that is what you are claiming.

but my point was could he recognize he's in the genutsu in time before itachi blitzes him and slit his throat?

I have no clue but I would guess yes.

if he has shown no counter to that one jutsu then whats wrong with doing it?

Because it can be a never ending cycle if we both do that with each of their jutsu.

awesome scenario. to bad he hasn't shown the speed to prove he can do it.

And Itachi hasn't shown he can catch Jiraiya in a genjutsu

[Super Naruto]

-The Manga Statement that Naruto Surpassed Minato and Jiraiya

this is another bullshit statement that lacks feats to prove.

He mastered Sage Mode where Jiraiya did not..

He Completed the Rasengan and created his own version.

What other facts do you need man?

[Cyphon]

Originally Posted by Super Naruto

He Completed the Rasengan and created his own version.

Sure he did, but Jiraiya has Yomi Numa, Katon's etc...

Naruto mastered 1 jutsu well Jiraiya has many mastered.

I never really understood why people thought Naruto having 1 great technique makes him surpass anyone. So he surpassed them in the art of Rasengan making.

What other facts do you need man?

Probably the other things in a battle like speed, power, intelligence, versatility etc....

[Khris]

agree, i always considered feats>statements, i also agree with your examples especially itachi's and naruto's situations..

though nothing can be done if it was a blunt and clear statement.. because that is what kishi thoughts are in that panel or situation..

[Godaime Hokage]

I was thinking about making a similar thread earlier about whether or not hype could be trusted. As much as I love a lot of the manga statements that are made, especially the one where Jiraiya states that no one can stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade in battle, I have to disagree with a lot of them, that one included. Obviously they're not backed up by what occurs later in the manga, so they're not to be trusted or taken so lightly. Of course, it's not like we've seen Tsunade go all out in a fight, but it's very hard to believe that she could take on Nagato and such (perhaps Jiraiya meant taijutsu), but there are other arguments like the one you pointed out in the introductory post that have been proven false later on.

Manga feats > manga statements.

[Euraj]

I agree that feats are more credible than statements in the sense that there's always the chance that the character making a statement is either lying or misinformed: However, both are susceptible to being over-analyzed by the reader and unsupported by past actions in the Manga: However neither or which become false declarations based on our unwillingness to believe them.

Naruto surpassing Kakashi after learning Rasen-Shuriken is example number one: Kakashi, whom would know his own abilities better than anyone else aside from his mangaka creator, said Naruto was either as strong or stronger. There is no practical reason for this to have been a lie or mistake. Whether we can comprehend why or not the statement is true, it is true.

An example of an incomprehensible "Manga feat" would be Sasuke escaping Deidara's C0. He was supposedly virtually empty on chakra and didn't make a move to escape until Deidara had already detonated, yet he managed to use Kuchiyose, cast a powerful Sharingan Genjutsu, and take "flight" before being wiped out. We don't understand or like how it happened, but it still happened.

So, basically. Kishi doesn't have to prove that what his characters say or do are true to make them true. By rejecting things that are positioned to be true simply because we don't feel that they should be is only an inconvenience to ourselves because beyond this forum and the other communities that like to look too deeply into child-aimed fictional stories, no one gives a damn whether we accept these things or not.