Manga Feats OR Manga Statements ?

[Inu-Sennin]

very often in the manga there are a lot of things that are said but feats contradict the statements made. i personally think manga feats> manga statements. but i want to give a few examples of what i mean.



-The Manga Statement that Hiruzen is the strongest if the kages.

seriously? what has he done to deserve such a title? their are other kage that have way more feats than him. hashirama, minato, raikage,gaara,ect.and people like to bring up the he beat two kage plus orochimaru statement while he was elderly, but they need to realize that those were zombies that couldn't really think for themselves, not to mention hashirama did not have his bijuu.plus orochimaru was toying with him. he could have killed old man sarutobi many times through that fight.

then there is the statement that he had every jutsu in konoha, except clan and kekke genkei based ones. but then it was shown that he does not have every element affinity because only a rinnegan user can. it was also evident in his fight with orochimaru that was not true otherwise he would have pulled out some mind blowing jutsu, but his best jutsu he pulled out was minato's jutsu.he lacks feats to prove this as well.

- The Manga Statement that Itachi and Kisame together would lose to Jiraiya

This is one of the most silly statements that i seen throughout the manga.itachi made jiriaya's equal look like fodder twice, i know they were not "real" fights, but it clearly showed itachi was definitely superior to him. then we have this panel of jiraiya looking dead into itachi's eyes, which clearly was a huge mistake. and orochimaru was far superior to jiraiya in genjutsu, yet even he was fodderized by itachi's genjutsu.jiraiya said himself he sucks in that category, the databook made it evident as well.so in my opinion itachi could have very well solo'ed.adding kisame to the picture would make it rape.

-The Manga Statement that Naruto Surpassed Minato and Jiraiya

this is another bullshit statement that lacks feats to prove. naruto is my favorite character and is very strong. but seriously? him surpassing the two of them,especially minato, as overall ninja is almost laughable.he may have more raw power,and stronger jutsu but i still see the both of them schooling him in a real fight with intelligence and experience alone.it's kinda the same situation with sasuke, orochimaru and itachi. sasuke may have more raw power, but orochimaru and itachi would still pwn him.that statement became even more evident as garbage the moment nagato had naruto beaten. nagato said himself that with knowledge jiraiya could have beaten him, and yet naruto who had knowledge and was supposedly stronger than him couldn't even win with knowledge.that statement was even more BS because pa said that after watching naruto use one attack, and he didn't even see FRS yet, which by the way was the only thing that made naruto>kakashi. speaking of that...

- The Manga Statement that FRS Naruto Surpassed Kakashi.

their is no doubt naruto is stronger than kakashi now, but before sage mode i highly doubt he was just based on feats.seriously now? an incomplete jutsu at that time is the thing that closed the gap between kakashi and naruto? if the two were to fight back then i doubt naruto would even get to hit kakashi with that thing.


but anyway do you think manga statements are BS and feats say it all, or is it manga statements that only mena anything?

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Feats and statements are fine to use together provided their put into context.

However as you see around, quite a few members are unable to do so.

[Bartallen2]

Logically speaking, both are relatively fine, however, delving too much into the territory of the Databook statistics could be considered a thing not complementing both concepts you have made known to us in the OP.

1. Sandaime being known as the "God amongst the Shinobi" and the "Professor" was somewhat supported by Orochimaru within Part I; battling Shodai and Nidaime simultaneously, and them being bloodlusted. Naturally, Sandaime would have commented on them had their power been different. He had surpassed all previous Hokage in age, which suggests alot.

2. Itachi was a person to avoid confrontation, not to mention that he could have been the person supplying information to Jiraiya about Akatsuki, and most importantly, he knew that Jiraiya was protecting Naruto, which is somewhat ironic that when Jiraiya died Naruto was somewhat later battling Nagato. Another point was that Itachi was a person who planned and planned, ergo, Jiraiya's appearance may have been unexpected.

3. Naruto has surpassed Yondaime in completing the Rasengan and Jiraiya through Sage Mode, however, has has he surpassed their intelligence, knowledge, experience, speed capibilities, arsenal of Jutsu or their renownedness?

4. See point 3.

[Perseverance]

uh when Fasuka said "Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya/Minato" I lost faith in statements because of the hype they try to bring to the situation.

Also when Jiraiya said something like "Tsunade is strong", and it's never been shown or backed up by her feats, kinda just tells you kishi does this to hype up characters alot, given the situation. In this case it was for Tsunade to becomming the 5th hokage.

I more or less side with Manga feats, since it's always better evidence.

[Juracule Mihawk]

In some cases statements can be hyperboles, if you don't have the feats to support the statement at the END of the manga, than that statement is not true, but simply a hyperbole.

Especially if it contradicts with the ongoing manga.

[godtachi]

Bth are written by Kishi, so they must be considered as canon, even if some statements made are just

[Air D]

Well, Gaara stated his sand was the ultimate defense, Neji his Heavenly Spin and Sasuke his Amaterasu. They all made statements, but their feats in the manga say otherwise.

[Cyphon]

Originally Posted by Inu-Sennin

then there is the statement that he had every jutsu in konoha, except clan and kekke genkei based ones.

It was actually stated that he had a counter for every jutsu in Konoha.

itachi made jiriaya's equal look like fodder twice, i know they were not "real" fights, but it clearly showed itachi was definitely superior to him.

This is where your thread starts to really lose value.

1. Oro and Jiraiya were never considered or stated to be equals. They both merely hold the same title, but that is no different than all of the Hokage's holding the same title and as you said above, they are certainly not all equal.

2. ABC logic doesn't work in this manga. Itachi beating Oro proves.....well, that Itachi > Oro and nothing else.

You can't use that to compare him to a completely different fighter who is also arguably stronger.

then we have this panel of jiraiya looking dead into itachi's eyes, which clearly was a huge mistake.

There was never anything showing they looked each other dead in the eye. There are 2 separate panels of each of their eyes. Usually that is done to show intensity of the situation and all that.

Either way it means nothing as we don't know how easily Jiraiya can break the genjutsu or how prepared he was even if he were caught.

and orochimaru was far superior to jiraiya in genjutsu, yet even he was fodderized by itachi's genjutsu.jiraiya said himself he sucks in that category, the databook made it evident as well.so in my opinion itachi could have very well solo'ed.adding kisame to the picture would make it rape.

Your BIG mistake here is that you are talking about all offensive genjutsu use. Fighting genjutsu has nothing to do with being able to use it.

So everything you brought up is irrelevant to how well Jiraiya would do if placed in a genjutsu.

-The Manga Statement that Naruto Surpassed Minato and Jiraiya

this is another bullshit statement that lacks feats to prove.

This I fully agree with.

[Griever]

I go by what's seen rather than what's said.

For exaple, "Amaterasu the strongest ninjutsu", it was for awile till Chibaku Tensei and Shinra Tensei came into play. That's the way it's generaly gonna be, a new jutsu will always beat the previous ones, keeps it interesting, yeah.

[®]

-The Manga Statement that Hiruzen is the strongest if the kages.

seriously? what has he done to deserve such a title? their are other kage that have way more feats than him. hashirama, minato, raikage,gaara,ect.and people like to bring up the he beat two kage plus orochimaru statement while he was elderly, but they need to realize that those were zombies that couldn't really think for themselves, not to mention hashirama did not have his bijuu.plus orochimaru was toying with him. he could have killed old man sarutobi many times through that fight.

then there is the statement that he had every jutsu in konoha, except clan and kekke genkei based ones. but then it was shown that he does not have every element affinity because only a rinnegan user can. it was also evident in his fight with orochimaru that was not true otherwise he would have pulled out some mind blowing jutsu, but his best jutsu he pulled out was minato's jutsu.he lacks feats to prove this as well.

Your argument that a ninja is as good as his 1 best jutsu is flawed.

Variety, versatility and right technique for the situation have meaning too, and were far more emphasized in Part 1.

"Feats" have some importance. An MMA fighter will beat an olympic athlete, despite "better feats" because Battle is not a track-and-field event.

I agree with the other points though. In the other points, you actually made my point here.

[Death Note]

Logic. It is above both of them.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Originally Posted by Death Note

Logic. It is above both of them.

Logic should be used with both of them as well as putting them all into context.

[Death Note]

Originally Posted by Munboy Dracule O'Brian

Logic should be used with both of them as well as putting them all into context.

No. Logic uses both of them. So it is above them.

[Peaceful Uchiha]

Reznor posted/

Statements mean more to me. Then come feats. But both should be used together with logic. Its not just black and white pages.

[Bartallen2]

Yes, as suggested in my first post, if they can complement one another quite brilliant, providing there is a relative amount of logic and strong foundation underneath such comments.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Originally Posted by Death Note

No. Logic uses both of them. So it is above them.

You'd be surprised.

[Kusogitsune]

Neither; both are incredibly flawed when you factor in the details of each situation. Like Tsunade vs. Kabuto; people claim this is evidence that Kakashi>Tsunade, because she was losing to Kabuto, because "Kabuto=Kakashi". And yet.... where are the feats that show Kabuto=Kakashi? They never even fought; and the first time they encountered each other, Kabuto totally mindfucked Kakashi with his trickery skills; the second and only other encounter between the two, Kabuto mocks Kakashi and leaves; nothing happened. Kakashi=Kabuto? Only by the statements of Orochimaru and Kabuto himself; neither of which are reliable sources, since Orochimaru says a lot of things that get contradicted later, and Kabuto is one of the most deceptive bastards in the entire manga. You can't trust a damn thing he says. Going by feats alone, Kabuto>Kakashi. Then what is the truth? Use your fucking noggin and figure it out for yourself.

[®]

Neither; both are incredibly flawed when you factor in the details of each situation. Like Tsunade vs. Kabuto; people claim this is evidence that Kakashi>Tsunade, because she was losing to Kabuto, because "Kabuto=Kakashi". And yet.... where are the feats that show Kabuto=Kakashi? They never even fought; and the first time they encountered each other, Kabuto totally mindfucked Kakashi with his trickery skills; the second and only other encounter between the two, Kabuto mocks Kakashi and leaves; nothing happened. Kakashi=Kabuto? Only by the statements of Orochimaru and Kabuto himself; neither of which are reliable sources, since Orochimaru says a lot of things that get contradicted later, and Kabuto is one of the most deceptive bastards in the entire manga. You can't trust a damn thing he says. Going by feats alone, Kabuto>Kakashi. Then what is the truth? Use your fucking noggin and figure it out for yourself.

Kabuto > Tsunade isn't established by that either.

[Death Note]

Originally Posted by Munboy Dracule O'Brian

You'd be surprised.

Would i?

[Bartallen2]

Originally Posted by Kusogitsune

Neither; both are incredibly flawed when you factor in the details of each situation. Like Tsunade vs. Kabuto; people claim this is evidence that Kakashi>Tsunade, because she was losing to Kabuto, because "Kabuto=Kakashi". And yet.... where are the feats that show Kabuto=Kakashi?

The concept of Transitive Relation prevents the claim of Kakashi > Tsunade coming to fruiton based on Tsuande's preformance against Kabuto.

Originally Posted by Kusogitsune

Only by the statements of Orochimaru and Kabuto himself; neither of which are reliable sources, since Orochimaru says a lot of things that get contradicted later, and Kabuto is one of the most deceptive bastards in the entire manga. You can't trust a damn thing he says. Going by feats alone, Kabuto>Kakashi.

Indeed, Kakashi surpassed Kabuto in terms of overall feats, but one could make note of Kabuto eluding Kakashi's Sharingan in Part I, and tricking him into believing something which wasn't exactly so, not to mention the giftedness and ingenuity shown by Kabuto, especially him happily willing to fight Jiraiya instead of Tsunade.