DBZ Speed?

[blaster]

How fast the DBZ/GT characters? from start to end.

[Kisame]

what? You want to know and then say no spoilers.


They clearly can't fly past the light barrier if thats what your asking.

Infact I don't think their fighting speed increased in proportion to their powerlevels.

[blaster]

what? You want to know and then say no spoilers.


They clearly can't fly past the light barrier if thats what your asking.

Infact I don't think their fighting speed increased in proportion to their powerlevels.

*Fixed*

anyway just continue.

Thus they're speed have measured before?

[CrazyMoronX]

It's really hard to say how fast they were, as it was never really stated in the manga.

You can't say they weren't as fast as light, just because it took Gotenks a few seconds to go around the either, was he trying his hardest? No.

You can't go by how long it takes from them to get from one place to another, as it isn't happening in real time, it's happening in DBZ time. Which could mean 1 frame = 0.001 seconds. You really can't say.

If you read a Superman comic, and just watched him fly from one scene to another, you might think he was going the speed of sound or so in flight, just because of what happens in between frames (sometimes). But we all know he is at least as fast as light in most variations. Only because it was stated previously explicitly.

[Kisame]

not just Gotenks Cmx. Gohan when rushing to school still took what 30 minutes?

[Jeltz]

I think that the few times when speed can be measured in DBZ it is much slower than the speed of light. I think there were two times. Once when someone flew around the planet and once where Goku(?) travelled by the path in hell. I'm just going by memory now so i could be totally wrong.

[Kisame]

Yeah Idk how far gohan school is but he used to take a LONG time getting there and he used to be going his all to make it and was late all the time.

[blaster]

Yeah Idk how far gohan school is but he used to take a LONG time getting there and he used to be going his all to make it and was late all the time.
You can't say they weren't as fast as light, just because it took Gotenks a few seconds to go around the either, was he trying his hardest? No.


Can you scan them for me? please.

And CMX,

Earth's surface area = 510,100,934 square km (196,951,070 square miles).
Accurate value of Light speed = 239,722 km/sec.

That's more than beyond the lightspeed.And Thats 2,127 times then speed of light? thats very impossible! :amazed (correct my calculations if i'm obviously wrong:( )maybe below then that if he take seconds not second,as we've seen the series.

[CrazyMoronX]

DBZ's "Earth" isn't the same as our Earth. It could be bigger. We really don't know what size it was.

[Kisame]

It didnt take him a few secs in 30 minutes he went around 3 times and took a nap.

[Guy Gardner]

Can you scan them for me? please.

And CMX,

Earth's surface area = 510,100,934 square km (196,951,070 square miles).
Accurate value of Light speed = 239,722 km/sec.

That's more than beyond the lightspeed.And Thats 2,127 times then speed of light? thats very impossible! :amazed (correct my calculations if i'm obviously wrong:( )maybe below then that if he take seconds not second,as we've seen the series.

He didn't fly over every spot in the world, so don't use Surface Area to measure it. You use the circumference, which is around 24,859 miles. Now considering the Speed of light is 186,282.397 mps, he could still travel the world a few times in a second without reaching the speed of light.

[blaster]

Well thanks then.

[Reznor]

I know how angry discussing DBZ makes people (:huh) but I've had to delete/edit 4 posts so far. Play nice kids.

---------------------------

My stance on all this:

I'm neutral on most of this. I think that their travel speed is less than the speed of light. (Though, the Gotenks example is very poor)

Fighting speeds, though, I think people here don't give them much credit for because they are used to comics which portray abilities through feats rather than through comparisons and tiers, which is Anime's conventional approach.

[Final Ultima]

I know how angry discussing DBZ makes people (:huh) but I've had to delete/edit 4 posts so far. Play nice kids.That's nothing.

Check out the entirety of the "Mystic Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku" thread. I swear, if I could...I'd bite off the faces of the more ignorant posters there. Something about getting Dragon Ball tiers horribly wrong just sets me off for some reason.

[Reznor]

That's nothing.

Check out the entirety of the "Mystic Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku" thread. I swear, if I could...I'd bite off the faces of the more ignorant posters there. Something about getting Dragon Ball tiers horribly wrong just sets me off for some reason. Goku is teh strongest!!!!!1!

[Final Ultima]

*Removes Reznor's face from his skull, then ejects him from the Outskirts Battledome via the application of feet to face.*

Now then...

[Chi]

Can you scan them for me? please.

And CMX,

Earth's surface area = 510,100,934 square km (196,951,070 square miles).
Accurate value of Light speed = 239,722 km/sec.

That's more than beyond the lightspeed.And Thats 2,127 times then speed of light? thats very impossible! :amazed (correct my calculations if i'm obviously wrong:( )maybe below then that if he take seconds not second,as we've seen the series.

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/8586/11377620569777uc.gif

I just had to do it :(

Anyway.. They are just mega-freaking fast..
It doesn't actually matters if their speed is 3 or 4 times bigger than the speed of light. It's manga.. Everything can happen there..

You can judge their speed from what was already said above about Gotenks :kthumb

[kapsi]

You could go around Earth 7 times in a second going 300.000 km/s

Anyway, Goku returned from King Kaio's planet (to fight Vegeta) in about one day and the distance was said to be 1.000.000 kilometers, which gives him about 41.000 km/h averange.

[Final Ultima]

You could go around Earth 7 times in a second going 300.000 km/s

Anyway, Goku returned from King Kaio's planet (to fight Vegeta) in about one day and the distance was said to be 1.000.000 kilometers, which gives him about 41.000 km/h averange.Two days, not one.

[kapsi]

Says one in my manga... if two then it's 20K

[Code]

It didnt take him a few secs in 30 minutes he went around 3 times and took a nap.
... It was a lot more than 3 times, and not only that, he wasn't running on the surface, a simple look at his path would show that considering the distance he was flying outside of the Earth, it would've been many more times (or at least a few more) were he simply running on the surface (which is where the diameter would come into play.)


http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/1193/4010083pn.jpg
He obvioiusly flies at times a circumferance far greater than that of the Earth... so no texactly running on its surface... nor is it a perfect circle (though the Earth itself isn't...) and we aren't aware of how long the nap was. Along with wheter he was going at full speed to Majin Buu. So can't really judge much from that.

In terms of technology, Earth-made spaceships surpass the speed of light... Goku's instant movement is well... instant, and he's been shown to use it in battle one after another and even in the middle of performing a move of which he executed while doing it.

But say in a Battledome fight, just because they can't "move" as fast as someone, doesn't mean they can't hit them. As I've pointed out before (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=2792573&postcount=47), things like the Kamehameha are probably much faster than a character's flight speed, yet someone could dodge it from nearly point blank range. An example of the speed aside from that one, is the little time it took to reach the moon even early on the series.

[Final Ultima]

Gotenks took five laps around the Earth, to be exact. You can tell in one of the panels.

[Reznor]

Gotenks took five laps around the Earth, to be exact. You can tell in one of the panels.
How do you know that he took exactly five?

You are assuming that that panel covered all 29 minutes.

[Final Ultima]

It would be just as much conjecture to assume otherwise.

We can't deal with stuff we don't know.

[Reznor]

It would be just as much conjecture to assume otherwise.

We can't deal with stuff we don't know.
I know, but I don't think that everyone should be using that as an example to show "how slow they are"

It shows that he travels "at least fast enough to go around the world 5 times in 30 minutes." Not "at most"

[Final Ultima]

And as you may have noticed, I'm not arguing either way right now, I just say how it is. XD

[Reznor]

And as you may have noticed, I'm not arguing either way right now, I just say how it is. XD
I realize that, but you said "exact" and that was a common misconception everyone states.

I needed to make an example of you. *crucifies*

[Jio]

It would be just as much conjecture to assume otherwise.

We can't deal with stuff we don't know.


SO why does everyone base dbz characters speed from that, what we dont know is the amount of time he spent, for all we know that could have been 10 seconds, we dont know how long the nap was, and we dont know how much he was trying.

Anyway, about their speeds, i beleive it is a double figures in percentage of light speed 10% or more.

[Bullet]

What a lame thread.

[Kisame]

http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/1193/4010083pn.jpg


Why does his flight pattern.... look like he is outside the earths atmosphere?...

[Final Ultima]

Plot hole, I guess. Either that, or Earth in the Dragon Ball universe has a larger atmosphere, but that's grasping at straws.

[CrazyMoronX]

From that picture, it seems he flew all over the place. So if anything it shows that DBZ chars are pretty damned fast.

Also, just because Saiya-jins cannot breath in space, doesn't mean they can't go into space for periods of time. They can obviously hold their breath for a long time, apparent by Goku staying underwater for so long while fighting Frieza.

[Code]

I don't see how it's a plot hole.... maybe he's durable enough to survive in the atmosphere (as Freiza) was, and he's able to hold his breathe during the time it took to do that.

Though of course I may be missing something that's neccessariy to survive in space aside from that....

[Kisame]

Though of course I may be missing something that's neccessariy to survive in space aside from that....

The fact that he should explode since the pressure inside of him is far greater than the pressure outside.

The absolute Zero temperatures of space.

Few other things. Like direct radiation from the sun and stuff.

edit: you wouldnt explode hmmm

You would lose consciousness because there is no oxygen. This could occur in as little as 15 seconds.

Because there is no air pressure to keep your blood and body fluids in a liquid state, the fluids would "boil." Because the "boiling process" would cause them to lose heat energy rapidly, the fluids would freeze before they were evaporated totally (There is a cool display in San Francisco's science museum, The Exploratorium, that demonstrates this principle!). This process could take from 30 seconds to 1 minute. So, it was possible for astronaut David Bowman in "2001: a Space Odyssey" to survive when he ejected from the space pod into the airlock without a space helmet and repressurized the airlock within 30 seconds
.
Your tissues (skin, heart, other internal organs) would expand because of the boiling fluids. However, they would not "explode" as depicted in some science fiction movies, such as "Total Recall."


You would face extreme changes in temperature
sunlight - 248 degrees Fahrenheit or 120 degrees Celsius
shade - minus 148 degrees Fahrenheit or minus 100 degrees Celsius

You would be exposed to various types of radiation (cosmic rays) or charged particles emitted from the sun (solar wind).

You could be hit by small particles of dust or rock that move at high speeds (micrometeoroids) or orbiting debris from satellites or spacecraft.

[Pinkaugust]

Beginning of DB: Son Goku runs faster than any athlete in the history of man..
the world record in 100 meters is somewhere about 9 seconds right?
Son Goku's time was about 8 seconds..

DBZ - Freeza Saga: Son Goku is faster than the eye, no one except fully leveled up Freeza can see him move properly. Super Saiya-jin Son Goku can, but doesn't, move over 1000 times faster than that.

DBZ - Cell Saga: Son Goku has become significantly stronger and faster than before, but still not anywhere near the Super Saiya-jin boost of speed. in Super Saiya-jin mode he is about twice as fast as he could've been against Freeza, considering the training he's had during a few years, he is at least twice as strong, which would calculate: Cell saga SSJ Son Goku = 2 x Freeza saga SSJ Son Goku, therefore Cell saga SSJ Son Goku = 2000 x Freeza saga Son Goku.

Even so, this might not be fast as light, but it's pretty close, and cannot be compared to any other anime-character... DBZ characters are fast enough to punch you at least 100 times before your body reacts and dies..

[Kisame]

Even so, this might not be fast as light, but it's pretty close, and cannot be compared to any other anime-character... DBZ characters are fast enough to punch you at least 100 times before your body reacts and dies..

What animes have you watched? Saint seiya, Bastard! and Tenchi series had some speeds unfathomable.

[Jio]

The fact that he should explode since the pressure inside of him is far greater than the pressure outside.

The absolute Zero temperatures of space.

Few other things. Like direct radiation from the sun and stuff.

And he stated ''maybe he is a durable as fruiza'' so all that needed is holding his breath which he did.

[Kisame]

And he stated ''maybe he is a durable as fruiza'' so all that needed is holding his breath which he did.

Frieza had the ability to "breathe" in space. Not withstand it. That would keep air pressure in his blood and what not.

[kapsi]

Beginning of DB: Son Goku runs faster than any athlete in the history of man..
the world record in 100 meters is somewhere about 9 seconds right?
Son Goku's time was about 8 seconds..

Oh yeah, Kamesennin ran 100m in 5,5 s then

[Jio]

Frieza had the ability to "breathe" in space. Not withstand it. That would keep air pressure in his blood and what not.


No he could survive in space, that how he didn't die, his body was still ok in space.

He also planned on blowing up the planet because goku couldnt breath there.

The main isssue in dbz for characters dieing in space is them suffercating, cell was able to survive in space.

[Pinkaugust]

Frieza had the ability to "breathe" in space. Not withstand it. That would keep air pressure in his blood and what not.
freeza can survive in space, he stated that so many times it's not even funny.
Do you know what dragonball is? Because I think you might have missed something if you didn't know that, and that they kick all other anime characters asses..

[Kisame]

freeza can survive in space, he stated that so many times it's not even funny.
No duh

Do you know what dragonball is? Because I think you might have missed something if you didn't know that, and that they kick all other anime characters asses..

Yeah... Especially when they CAN JUST BLOW UP THE PLANET!!1!111

[The MMAthematician]

After reading this thread, I hold on to my belief that DBZ speed is fast as shit, but is still not light speed. If the light speed theory was true, then when Goku was traveling on Snakeway, he should have traveled all of the thousands of miles in less than a second. Not one person in this thread can deny that he wasn't in a hurry both ways......

[Pinkaugust]

No duh



Yeah... Especially when they CAN JUST BLOW UP THE PLANET!!1!111
yeah, so why are you arguing about it?

Freeza survives in space, and DBZ characters kill everyone..

[Orotachi]

Heck, he's just playing around.

[The MMAthematician]

Yo, Orotachi, can I ask you a question? I read a thread where you listed Superman Primes powers, but I was a little confused. Most of what you listed I already knew Superman could do, but everyone talks about how Prime is god-like. Then you listed Superman M's powers, which were no joke.

My question is what powers does he have besides the Green Lantern ring that the average Superman wouldn't have? I can't find anything about him online.....

[Toffeeman]

Goku's Instant Transmission travels faster than lighspeed, as far as I was aware anyway..

[Pinkaugust]

instantaneous movement is faster than light, but in reality quite impossible.. Goku can do it though.. and he has a battle with Cooler in one of the movies where they both do instant transmission and fight eachother.. it seems two people moving with instant transmission at the same time move as normal compared to eachother..

[Kisame]

and he has a battle with Cooler in one of the movies where they both do instant transmission and fight eachother.. it seems two people moving with instant transmission at the same time move as normal compared to eachother..


Thats because movies are non canon...

[ZE]

Thats because movies are non canon...
In dragon ball you can say that, dragon ball has so many filers in the anime that only someone who knows well the manga knows well, in every dragon ball episode there are filers, if you say they are non canon then all the series aren’t.

[Kisame]

In dragon ball you can say that, dragon ball has so many filers in the anime that only someone who knows well the manga knows well, in every dragon ball episode there are filers, if you say they are non canon then all the series aren’t.

??? No its not. Just the stupid crap is fillers.

[Reznor]

The fact that he should explode since the pressure inside of him is far greater than the pressure outside. The pressure differance creates a net force per unit area.

In addition to Gotenks body being a small, he's super durable..... considering how durable they were all those sagas ago and that Gotenks followed the power inflation.

The absolute Zero temperatures of space. Why would that kill him? That's a very small drain considering the amount of energy that Gotenks body produces.

Few other things. Like direct radiation from the sun and stuff. If you want me to bust out some astronomical data, I can, but don't you think that Gotenks is more durable that a cylinder of air?

[Rice Ball]

don't mix physics with DBZ. Its a fun series but totally shit to debait with.

Just say Space in the DBZU is room temperature :)

[Guy Gardner]

The pressure differance creates a net force per unit area.

In addition to Gotenks body being a small, he's super durable..... considering how durable they were all those sagas ago and that Gotenks followed the power inflation.

A decent site to go to. (http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/vacuum.html)

This is something a bit beyond simple durability, just basic physiology. I doubt things like his eyes and ears are very well protected.

Why would that kill him? That's a very small drain considering the amount of energy that Gotenks body produces.

:huh

I'm not sure if Gotenks has ever been hit with seriously intense cold, but I doubt he could stand the vacuum of space for that long, no matter what power level he is. The sheer cold would put his body into shock fairly quickly. It's not like his Ki is producing heat or something.

If you want me to bust out some astronomical data, I can, but don't you think that Gotenks is more durable that a cylinder of air?

Cylinder of air? I think everything that has been expressed is more in the realm of basic physiology. Of course he won't explode, but things like solar radiation and cold nearing absolute zero is a reality that Gotenks couldn't really stand up to.

Durability doesn't have anything to do with it. Your skin can be hardened beyond all belief, withstanding bullets and the like, but even Goku couldn't travel through lava and has expressed discomfort in cold areas.

Durability doesn't hinder radiation poisoning, either. I'd be willing to bet that Rads would hurt Gotenks just as much as a regular human being as it really can't be blocked by Ki.

[Final Ultima]

Goku's Instant Transmission travels faster than lighspeed, as far as I was aware anyway..Shunkan Idou; meaning Instantaneous Movement, is just that...instant.

It's teleportation, and as such...it's not a case of speed, only of location.

[kapsi]

"Solar radiation" isn't blocked by space suits either?

[Kisame]

"Solar radiation" isn't blocked by space suits either?

Why its not?

Several things are needed for the spacesuit to function properly in space. It must provide:

a stable internal pressure. This can be less than earth's atmosphere, as there is usually no need for the spacesuit to carry nitrogen.
breathable oxygen. Usually a rebreather is used along with a supply of fresh oxygen.
temperature regulation. Heat can only be lost in space by thermal radiation, or conduction with objects in physical contact with the space suit. Since heat is lost very slowly by radiation, a space suit almost always has only a cooling system and heavy insulation on the hands and possibly feet.
electromagnetic radiation shielding.
micrometeoroid protection.
mobility.
a communication system.
means to recharge and discharge gases and liquids.
means to maneuver, dock, release, and tether on space craft.

[kapsi]

oh ok .

[uncanny_sama]

let me put it easy

goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every single DB/DBZ/GT character

[Kisame]

goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>every single DB/DBZ/GT character

Gohan>gotenks>Mr. Buu(not sure of this one)>Goku

[CrazyMoronX]

Didn't Goku go to the moon in Dragonball?

If Toriyama says they can survive in space, they can survive in space (for short periods of time). Real world physics need not apply.

Anyway, Superman survives in space, he cannot breathe in space though. Wonderwoman can also survive in space, but cannot breathe either.

If you're dealing with comics or manga, real life isn't a factor. If they are tough enough to survive the temperatures (which usually isn't accounted for in any comic/manga anyway), they can hold their breath and float in space.

If you want to spread your scientific knowledge, a DBZ debate really isn't the place.

[Kisame]

Didn't Goku go to the moon in Dragonball?

Moon got blown up very early in dragonball. Don't know how he would have gotten their.

And no one has been stated to survive in space besides w/e Race Freiza is, Cell because he had frieza's cells, and buu.

[CrazyMoronX]

I believe he used his powerpole to go up to the moon, or at least someone said that. I never read regular Dragonball. :cry

[Reznor]

A decent site to go to.

This is something a bit beyond simple durability, just basic physiology. I doubt things like his eyes and ears are very well protected. In dragonball, yamcha said that he trained every inch of his body when he was crotch-shotted. I'd assume that they all trained that way.

Saiyans are more durable than humans.

Everytime they get hit with a body enveloping blast, their ears are hit as well.

Also, there clothes aren't as durable, yet they survive for the most part. I think that they are shield with a ki-aura sort of thing.

I'm not sure if Gotenks has ever been hit with seriously intense cold, but I doubt he could stand the vacuum of space for that long, no matter what power level he is. The sheer cold would put his body into shock fairly quickly. It's not like his Ki is producing heat or something. Wasn't goku hit by some kind of ice weapon in dragonball? Anyone got that?

I still think surviving cold is quite feasible.


Cylinder of air? I think everything that has been expressed is more in the realm of basic physiology. Of course he won't explode, but things like solar radiation and cold nearing absolute zero is a reality that Gotenks couldn't really stand up to.

Durability doesn't have anything to do with it. Your skin can be hardened beyond all belief, withstanding bullets and the like, but even Goku couldn't travel through lava and has expressed discomfort in cold areas.

Durability doesn't hinder radiation poisoning, either. I'd be willing to bet that Rads would hurt Gotenks just as much as a regular human being as it really can't be blocked by Ki. I think that this is a big source of the disagreement.

I don't think that they have only conventional "I worked out alot" durability.

Conventional durability would do little against energy, but they survive huge energy attacks all the time.

[Kisame]

Wasn't goku hit by some kind of ice weapon in dragonball? Anyone got that?

I still think surviving cold is quite feasible.


He always was discomforted by the cold temperatures. He couldn't stay in the spirit of room and time because of it. And I dont remember the temperatures in it but wasn't anywhere near space temperatures. A much stronger Gohan went in and was affected as well.

[Code]

Well the only time I recall him having trouble with cold was against blob thing when he couldn't stand getting frozen in a block of ice. That was when he was much weaker and still just a kid. In the Room of Spirit and Time, the only thing troublesome wast the -40->122 degrees, as the air pressure was also 1/4th of the Earth's atmosphere and gravity 10x which Goku nor Gohan had any trouble with.

And more on topic, I noticed that Goku did infact move faster than lightning (I believe it's able to move at maximum, half the speed of light, so faster would be faster than lightning's max speed) in the manga... the dodging lightning itself trianing to get something was filler. Though in the manga, Goku was able to move faster than lightning (which Mr. Po Po was capable of doing) when he learned to not rely on his senses and use his ki when he went to Kami's lookout for the first time in Dragonball. So I suppose his speed is due to to ki. On a side note, we also see Piccolo actually "translocation" over a short distance, which I guess may be considered instant (or basically like a kawamari jutsu), so it's reasonable to assume that he uses ki since he doesn't do it all the time (this was after the Piccolo Daimyo saga), though that may not be the case, and even if it is, it doesn't mean that everyone who uses ki can do it, especially considering how Piccolo also has other properties such as stretching and regeneration....

So people who mastered ki to the level of being able to "sense someone's every movement and notice the slightest change in the atmosphere" every movement (as Mr. Po Po said and displayed by noticing every action of Goku without looking at him), are capable of using ki to increase speed to the point of surpassing lightning speed, at least if you contain as much ki as Goku before the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and as much mastery.

It's shown later in Dragonball during the Cell saga, Goku says that he's capable of using ki to augument the muscles to drastically increase strength far above normal levels, but also being that much slower in that specific Super Saiyan level, but the normal Super Saiyan is a perfect balance of power and speed.

Power I guess may require more mastering. As it actually requires altering the body, the Kaioken destroyed the body if it doesn't have perfect control, and Goku was only able to use it at a certain level. Though by the Cell saga he was able to increase his muscles greatly without any damage, though it sacrifices speed which the Kaioken increases.

So the point in mentioning that is that with ki you can change the properties of your body is explaining why someone like Gotenks can survive in space, though radiation may be another matter. Though it's been shown that you can deflect things with ki, so possibly if you want to ignore the fact that a comic isn't reality, you can say that they shield themselves from it with ki.

hough it doesn't explain how Goku used his Nyobi to travel to the moon with Boss Rabbit and his two henchmen, and back (in an appearantly short amount) without little arm, nor did Boss Rabbit die either while shown in space. The fact that Goku did it mainly because he remembered a "Rabbit on the Moon" story at that moment shows it took little effort or strain.

[Final Ultima]

I believe he used his powerpole to go up to the moon, or at least someone said that. I never read regular Dragonball. :cryIndeed he did, although we never see him leave the atmosphere or look at the moon, so he may have gone with it up to a point, then let the Nyoibo do the rest of the work.

[Reznor]

hough it doesn't explain how Goku used his Nyobi to travel to the moon with Boss Rabbit and his two henchmen, and back (in an appearantly short amount) without little arm, nor did Boss Rabbit die either while shown in space. The fact that Goku did it mainly because he remembered a "Rabbit on the Moon" story at that moment shows it took little effort or strain. Okay, you can't possibly take that part seriously XD

[Final Ultima]

Dragon Ball was as much comedy as it was action until the Piccolo Daimaou arc started, so some scenes like that you have to take with a grain of salt.

[Guy Gardner]

I actually liked Dragonball a bit better when it was just Dragonball. Ah, I miss them just being super-martial artists. :(

[Id]

I think the key to light speed movements and abilities lie in Solar Flare.

That’s the only credible technique that DBZ characters have that actually move at the speed of light. And no one has ever dogged it.

That’s why I think DBZ cast never reached the light barrier.

And their energy aren’t attacks arnt light speed.

Hey Final Ultima can you post scan from DB and DBZ regarding Solar Flare. (Im going by memory), maybe we can further analyze it.

[Rice Ball]

What type of energy is most of the attacks in Dragonball?

Is it Heat energy? Kinetic energy? Radiation maybe?

I also don't believe the Dragonball Cast reached lightspeed, examples of there top travel movement is in the Buu Saga when Gohan flys top speed to help goku, they showed the effect of him moving at high speeds (the trees and clouds moving) but they didn't show a Sonic Boom or anything more explosive (like at Atomsphere catching on fire)

[Code]

I doubt that they'd show something like that if it's relevant. And I'm sure the speed someone is capable of moving in one short burst is much greater than long-distance flight speed. (Of course being capable of moving at the speed of light would mean that they'd be able to reach them instantly without worry about distance on Earth for the most part) The speed of an attack is antoher matter though.

[Reznor]

I doubt that they'd show something like that if it's relevant. And I'm sure the speed someone is capable of moving in one short burst is much greater than long-distance flight speed. (Of course being capable of moving at the speed of light would mean that they'd be able to reach them instantly without worry about distance on Earth for the most part) The speed of an attack is antoher matter though. That's been my point about this.
We never see anyone's travel speed look like a blur, expect for really, really huge power gaps.
However, we seem them reach create quick bursts that go faster than they can see all the time.
Now, faster that someone can see doesn't imply light speed, but it implies it is certainly faster.

And, as someone with a physics degree, I think that this makes has much more possiblity of making sense that universes which just give people faster than light travel speeds as if light speed were just a really high speed:

Relativity says that light speed isn't possibly for objects with mass.
Quantum mechanics does make some allowances for some wave motion to bypass it.

Relativity and QM contradict each other occasionally. Relativity is truer for large scales, QM is better for small scales.

It would be fesible that they could hit speeds greater than light speed over bursts but not over conventional flight.

This is my case that it is feasible.

I also think that this is the only thing that is actually consistent.

Travel speed feats are frequently used to discredit DBZ speed.

The Gotenks one is the most often used. The points I'd like to make is that we don't know the length of nap, that he only did 5 laps and that that is the fastest he can go. Also, travel speed =/= combat speed. This can only imply that (base) Gotenks moves at least this fast.

Then there is Goku demonstrating IT w/ Roshi's glasses. Again, this is over a long range, which my case is that they can't get light speed over.

Then, there is Buu destroying the planet. Even the most pessimistic view needs to realize that they were barely/almost outracing a planet destroying attack. If it were moving at only the speed of sound, that would take fovever to destroy the planet. In order to destroy the planet in a few seconds, it would have to move at a relativistic speed. If you at it naively, this shows them moving light speed in travel speed.

However, I don't see it as that extreme. I see it as that it was happening really fast. Everything was slowed down for that scene. I also believe that this is evidence of my theory of the speeds. The ball moved at "only" at the speed of light.... but over a LONG distance. Thus, they could overrace it for a SHORT distance, but they had no chance it hell over a long distance - so it would catch them. This gave them time (on the order of microseconds or so) to try to get them (but getting Dende and Satan messed that up).

The discredit to this off course, is the fact that they talked and, in the manga and that Satan and Dende weren't killed by the sheer speed. Both of these, however, are common anime conventions.

[Rice Ball]

Check the Manga Code, that was anime filler sorry

If they are unable to 'travel' at lightspeed they shouldn't be able to melee at lightspeed.

IT shouldn'y be braught into it, in that case someone could say nightcrawler moves at the speed of light or Thanos moves at Billions and Brillions times the speed of light.

Buu didn't outrun the blasts did he, he blew the crap out of himself and reformed..
And are you going to next explain to me how the planet destruction act works? so it happened in a instant? If Goku was moving beyond the speed of light he could have saved his son(s).


Btw i don't claim any superhero can move at the speed of light unless the comic/film say they are able too.

Anyone got the scan of Flash running at the speed of light and killing everyone around him? Untill i see something like that i'll not believe it.

[Phenomenol]

Well in the beginning of Dragonball Goku was able to move faster than lightning after the Mr. Popo Training! Surely As the series went on they have gotten faster and even passed the speed of light.

Also, no one in this thread can proove why DBZ does not move at lightspeed because simply their is more evidence that they do fight and move faster than light than not.

[Endless Mike]

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they do move faster than light.

[Phenomenol]

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they do move faster than light.

And people like you who are so sure that DBZ does not move at lightspeed have to proove this as well.:amazed

[Endless Mike]

Actually, no, I don't.

It's impossible to prove a negative.

[Phenomenol]

Then this thread should not exist.

[Final Ultima]

Here's one...

The circumference of the Earth is 24,900 miles.
The speed of light is 186,000 miles a second.

Super Buu 3 took a significant amount of time (about three pages worth of pure conversation) to reach Goku and Vegeta.

Of course, that may not have been Super Buu 3's max speed, but that's just about the last point in the series that you can indicate speed particularly well.

(Phenomenol, by the way, I'd take Mr. Popo's "faster than lightning" comment with a grain of salt, he also said that Kami was 1,000 times stronger than himself, and that makes very little sense in the long run.)

But please, don't bother replying to this, I think this thread needs to die anyway. We'll be going in circles for the rest of time otherwise.

[Endless Mike]

The point is for you to back up your claims.

[Phenomenol]

Super Buu 3 took a significant amount of time (about three pages worth of pure conversation) to reach Goku and Vegeta.

That is because he was searching for Goku and Vegeta, what makes you think he was moving at his best? This is not a speed feat.


Phenomenol, by the way, I'd take Mr. Popo's "faster than lightning" comment with a grain of salt, he also said that Kami was 1,000 times stronger than himself, and that makes very little sense in the long run.)

Mr. Popo not only said "move Faster than lightning" he also demonstrated it as well, so lets not start that not taking comments seriously crap again especially when it is stated in the manga.

[params7]

Every fuckin' forums with its own version of Goku. *phew*

Anyways, Goku and all others surpass light by freeza saga, that's fighting speed, Gotenks is the first one to truly travel at light speed.

The super buu 3 thing can be kept as PIS (or plot induced stupdidity (google it), used often by comic writers to slow down people like superman to extend the plot)

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=117445&page=187

Go on from post no 2800 till the end of that thread. Quote stuff, post your arguments, i'll argue here.

Good luck.

[Reznor]

If they are unable to 'travel' at lightspeed they shouldn't be able to melee at lightspeed. Travel = long range
Bursts = short range

Scientifically speaking, it's more plausible that way.

IT shouldn'y be braught into it, in that case someone could say nightcrawler moves at the speed of light or Thanos moves at Billions and Brillions times the speed of light. I didn't bring IT into this. It isn't actually speed. (I just noticed that using a pronoun for IT saves me no time xD)

Buu didn't outrun the blasts did he, he blew the crap out of himself and reformed.. He was in the middle of it and had no need to.

In any case, I'm not arguing that he could. Planet-wide is much too FAR to out run. A quick burst could put some room between them and the blast, but not enough to actually escape it.
And are you going to next explain to me how the planet destruction act works? so it happened in a instant? If Goku was moving beyond the speed of light he could have saved his son(s). Um.... are you talking to me or what you imagine "Dragonball supporters" are arguing? :huh

If you discussing this with me, only address what I say. This is the third time now you've projected other peoples arguements on me.

Anyway, he could have, but he changed directions. The mades it long range and thus didn't have enough time.

How fast do you think they move?

Btw i don't claim any superhero can move at the speed of light unless the comic/film say they are able too.

Anyone got the scan of Flash running at the speed of light and killing everyone around him? Untill i see something like that i'll not believe it. What does Flash have to do with this? He obviously moves at the speed of light.

Minus brain farts were a slow person gets a hit in on him, it's pretty clear he's that fast.

At least most incarnations. Cartoon Network Flash is less than light speed.


The burden of proof is on you to prove that they do move faster than light.
And people like you who are so sure that DBZ does not move at lightspeed have to proove this as well. You're both wrong.

The goal should be to show what's most likely. No one will have air-tight proof either way. DBZ isn't as explicit as DC or Marvel is.

[Jio]

Here's one...

The circumference of the Earth is 24,900 miles.
The speed of light is 186,000 miles a second.

Super Buu 3 took a significant amount of time (about three pages worth of pure conversation) to reach Goku and Vegeta.

Of course, that may not have been Super Buu 3's max speed, but that's just about the last point in the series that you can indicate speed particularly well.

(Phenomenol, by the way, I'd take Mr. Popo's "faster than lightning" comment with a grain of salt, he also said that Kami was 1,000 times stronger than himself, and that makes very little sense in the long run.)

But please, don't bother replying to this, I think this thread needs to die anyway. We'll be going in circles for the rest of time otherwise.


Still wouldn't these calculations apply only if they were on the ground, the higher they are wouldn't is be the further they have to travel?

[Jio]

Here's one...

The circumference of the Earth is 24,900 miles.
The speed of light is 186,000 miles a second.

Super Buu 3 took a significant amount of time (about three pages worth of pure conversation) to reach Goku and Vegeta.

Of course, that may not have been Super Buu 3's max speed, but that's just about the last point in the series that you can indicate speed particularly well.

(Phenomenol, by the way, I'd take Mr. Popo's "faster than lightning" comment with a grain of salt, he also said that Kami was 1,000 times stronger than himself, and that makes very little sense in the long run.)

But please, don't bother replying to this, I think this thread needs to die anyway. We'll be going in circles for the rest of time otherwise.


Still wouldn't these calculations apply only if they were on the ground, the higher they are wouldn't is be the further they have to travel?

[Final Ultima]

True enough, but it's still a big difference, you have to admit.

[Phenomenol]

All I am saying is that their is more proof that DBZ Does move at lightspeed. Their is less proof to say that they don't.

Just because the creator did not say they move at lightspeed does not mean they can't. Hell, Toriyama never stated that they can use telekinesis but they can.

[Phenomenol]

You're both wrong.

The goal should be to show what's most likely. No one will have air-tight proof either way. DBZ isn't as explicit as DC or Marvel is

Well yeah you are right. The Saiyajin Space pods move faster than light, so did Piccolo's Ship.

Hell Gotenks really displayed lightspeed traveling wise, From the manga, "Dragon Ball" Tonkobons Volume 40, page 139: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."

A few dozen times could mean at least 24-36 times around the globe.

[Scorpio3.14]

All I am saying is that their is more proof that DBZ Does move at lightspeed. Their is less proof to say that they don't.

Its the exact opposite.

[Jio]

Its the exact opposite.

Well after a set time there is less and less proof, i don't think they move lightspeed, i think they can dodge shit moving real fast though, and their speed in burst i think is kinda high.

[Phenomenol]

Its the exact opposite.

Proof please? You say it but back your claims up please.

Well after a set time there is less and less proof, i don't think they move lightspeed, i think they can dodge shit moving real fast though, and their speed in burst i think is kinda high.

Less and Less Proof? where is this proof you speak of? Or is this just your opinion?

You do not believe that Gotenks moves at lightspeed or above even though in Dragon Ball" Tonkobons Volume 40, page 139: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."

That means he at least circled it about 24-36 times, and took a nap which really wasted his fusion time. Hell a nap could be from 15-25 minutes.

[Perfect Moron]

Less and Less Proof? where is this proof you speak of? Or is this just your opinion?
There isn't. That's what he's saying.

Here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=less


You do not believe that Gotenks moves at lightspeed or above even though in Dragon Ball" Tonkobons Volume 40, page 139: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."

That means he at least circled it about 24-36 times, and took a nap which really wasted his fusion time. Hell a nap could be from 15-25 minutes.

Even if he had 5 minutes, at lightspeed that's enough for 2100 times. Hell, with one minute, that's at least 420 times, and that's if you round it down. You don't call that dozens.

[Phenomenol]

Even if he had 5 minutes, at lightspeed that's enough for 2100 times. Hell, with one minute, that's at least 420 times, and that's if you round it down. You don't call that dozens.

Actually no, how do you know he went his fastest obviously he was not.

[Perfect Moron]

^ God, your atention span must be retardedly short. Let me recap for you:

You bring up the Gotenks around the Earth feat as a supposed proof of flying at the speed of light. I explain why it's not a proof of that. Then you ask me how do I know he was going at full speed, as if I were trying to prove he can't move at lightspeed. Does that seem like a logical response to you?

For the record, and if the previous parragraph confused you, I wasn't trying to prove he doens't move at the speed of light. I was just explaining why it's not a proof he does.

Are you ready to admit there's nothing to support the idea that they move at the speed of light? Since all you've got is this, which was already shot down, and the "They dissapear!" thing, which you seemingly gave up on.

Even if you don't admit they don't move at that speed, you could at least concede that there's no logical reason to assume that they are faster than other characters who are stated to be able to move at the speed of light.

[Phenomenol]

Are you ready to admit there's nothing to support the idea that they move at the speed of light? Since all you've got is this, which was already shot down, and the "They dissapear!" thing, which you seemingly gave up on.

Their are a few feats that I can use to varify speed. I will post them later as I look through my manga book.

[Bullet]

:D: They're really, really, fast, but not light speed.

[Phenomenol]

Thanks to Params7 for the link!!!!

those ships are saiyan space pods,Bulma said that with their fastest ship it would take 4339 years to get to Namek and their fastest ship fly's at least with 60.000 km/h,but with a saiyan space pod it only takes a couple of days so those ships were moving at light speed or above.

Vegeta and the others who could sense ships that were moving at light speed or above couldn't sense Freeza even though he had a very big Ki and was very close to them.

Okay: http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4554/db231026mq.gif

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8245/db231037yn.gif


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/899/db231045nd.gif

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3830/db231056to.gif

Vegeta could sense the kis in those ships that were moving at light speed or above.

Here Vegeta couldn't sense where Freeza was moving:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1151/resdb260747bh.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8806/resdb260755kr.jpg

And this Vegeta is way stronger,faster and could sense way better then the one that sensed those ships,but he still couldn't sense Freeza who had a ki 1000 bigger then those in the ship.

If Earth's fastest spaceship goes approximately at about 60 000km/h, and it would take 4339 years to get to Namek than Namek is
60 000*24*365*4339=2280578400000 km away from earth. Now a Saiyan space pod can get from Earth to Namek in 6 days which is 144 hours. That means that Saiyan space pod moves at 2280578400000/144 = 15837350000 km/h = 4399263 km/s. That means that those pods were moving at 4399263/300000 = 14 times the speed of light. Now Vegeta could sense that the Ginyu Force is coming while they were in space pods approaching the planet, but he couldn't sense where Frieza is, although Frieza was much closer than those pods plus Vegeta was more powerful then (as shown in scans Buutenks provided). So I think it's safe to say that top tiers were FTL in Frieza saga.

[Endless Mike]

I can easily track a jet liner moving across the sky with my eyes, but I can't track a fly buzzing around randomly right next to me.

Does that mean the fly is moving faster than the jet liner?

[Phenomenol]

Please, it is hardly the same thing. Go reread it.

[Endless Mike]

Yes it is. It's a perfect analogy.

It's much easier to track something far away moving on a completely linear trajectory than it is to track something small and close up moving around in crazy patterns.

[Phenomenol]

Yes it is. It's a perfect analogy.

It's much easier to track something far away moving on a completely linear trajectory than it is to track something small and close up moving around in crazy patterns.

Their is one mistake in your analogy, The Space ships were not even in planet Nameks atmosphere the ships were still in space and yet you think that Vegeta was able to see them. You are very wrong.:notrust

[Reznor]

Yes it is. It's a perfect analogy.

It's much easier to track something far away moving on a completely linear trajectory than it is to track something small and close up moving around in crazy patterns. So you're saying that these "crazy movements" are more important than raw speed? I agree.

Maybe you should back me up next Goku v Superman / Vegitto v Superman Prime battle ^__^

[Endless Mike]

The point is that it's easier to track something large moving in a straight line from far away than it is to track something small moving erratically really close.

[Phenomenol]

The point is that it's easier to track something large moving in a straight line from far away than it is to track something small moving erratically really close.

I don't think you get it, The space ships were not even in sight no one could see them, did you even look at the SCANS???

[Endless Mike]

I never said it was seeing them, tracking their ki the same principle would apply.

[Phenomenol]

That is absolute Bull!!!

[Endless Mike]

It makes perfect sense. Point out the flaw in my reasoning.

[Reznor]

It makes perfect sense. Point out the flaw in my reasoning. The fact that you use raw speed is more important to say that DBZ <<< comics, but then you say that raw speed is less important than eratic patterns to discount this?

[Scorpio3.14]

The fact that you use raw speed is more important to say that DBZ <<< comics, but then you say that raw speed is less important than eratic patterns to discount this?

Small, fast, erratic movements are exponentially harder to DETECT then faster movements happening really far away. I believe that is what he's trying to say and its true.

Its really simply mathmatics and angles. Look at two stars in the sky that appear to be close together. Measure the distance between those two stars from you point of view, it will probably only be a few centimeters or something. Do you know the actual distance between those two stars? Im sure you are aware that they are most likely many light years apart. To make it easy lets say they are exactly 1 light year apart and equadistant from earth. Lets say a space ship flys from star A to Star B going at extreme multiples of the speed of light so that the time it takes it to reach star B is only 1 minute. From Earth it would appear that the space ship was only moved a few centimeters in that minute when it really moved a whole light year. The speed as observed from earth would appear extremely slow (about 2 cm/min) but it was actually moveing waaaaaay past the speed of light. Now that same two centimeters that the space ship moving past light speed took a minute to cover as observed from earth could be covered by a car going 60 kmph in .001 seconds. The car moving only 60 km/hr appears to move over 60,000 times faster then the FTL space ship. Behold the power of trigonometry :P

This is why its perfectly reasonable that Goku and the gang could detect a saiyan space pods moving way off in space moving past the speed of light, but not be able to detect someone moveing way slower only a few feet from them.

[Endless Mike]

Thanks, you put it much better than I could.

[Perfect Moron]

The flaw with Phenomenol's reasoning (God, I'm tempted to use quotes) is that he's comparing sensing ki to viewing. Those spaceships were all that time within Vegeta's sensing range, so regardless of how fast they were moving, he could sense their occupant's ki. With Freezer, he lost track of him with his eyes. It never said he stopped sensing his ki.

[Reznor]

Small, fast, erratic movements are exponentially harder to DETECT then faster movements happening really far away. I believe that is what he's trying to say and its true.

Its really simply mathmatics and angles. Look at two stars in the sky that appear to be close together. Measure the distance between those two stars from you point of view, it will probably only be a few centimeters or something. Do you know the actual distance between those two stars? Im sure you are aware that they are most likely many light years apart. To make it easy lets say they are exactly 1 light year apart and equadistant from earth. Lets say a space ship flys from star A to Star B going at extreme multiples of the speed of light so that the time it takes it to reach star B is only 1 minute. From Earth it would appear that the space ship was only moved a few centimeters in that minute when it really moved a whole light year. The speed as observed from earth would appear extremely slow (about 2 cm/min) but it was actually moveing waaaaaay past the speed of light. Now that same two centimeters that the space ship moving past light speed took a minute to cover as observed from earth could be covered by a car going 60 kmph in .001 seconds. The car moving only 60 km/hr appears to move over 60,000 times faster then the FTL space ship. Behold the power of trigonometry

This is why its perfectly reasonable that Goku and the gang could detect a saiyan space pods moving way off in space moving past the speed of light, but not be able to detect someone moveing way slower only a few feet from them. I know, I'm saying he's using a double standard. He needs to maintain that stance if he wants to use it here.

[Phenomenol]

The flaw with Phenomenol's reasoning (God, I'm tempted to use quotes) is that he's comparing sensing ki to viewing. Those spaceships were all that time within Vegeta's sensing range, so regardless of how fast they were moving, he could sense their occupant's ki. With Freezer, he lost track of him with his eyes. It never said he stopped sensing his ki.

God Moron, you do not know what you are talking about! Vegeta was not using his eyes to fight Frieza he uses Senses and he could not sense Frieza's movements but he could sense the ships, I thought you knew that after the Goku and Mr. Popo training that no DBZ fighter uses their eyes to see becasue it is useless.

[Jio]

[QUOTE]

God Moron, you do not know what you are talking about! Vegeta was not using his eyes to fight Frieza he uses Senses and he could not sense Frieza's movements but he could sense the ships, I thought you knew that after the Goku and Mr. Popo training that no DBZ fighter uses their eyes to see becasue it is useless.


Still they most have pretty good eyes, because i don't think freiza can sense ki, therefore what he takes comes from the eyes. Anyway, ima eat a grapefruit and go to sleep.

[Phenomenol]

Still they most have pretty good eyes, because i don't think freiza can sense ki, therefore what he takes comes from the eyes

Only Freeza could not sense Ki, but The Z Senshi senses Ki along with Vegeta. They do not use their eyes in battle they use their senses.

[Id]

Was the technique “Solar Flare” ever used after the Vegita Saga?
(was it ever used in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu Saga?)

[superbatman86]

Was the technique “Solar Flare” ever used after the Vegita Saga?
(was it ever used in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu Saga?)Only against chars. that couldn't sense ki and Once by Cell but he used it then immediatly hid his ki and ran away.

[Phenomenol]

Was the technique “Solar Flare” ever used after the Vegita Saga?
(was it ever used in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu Saga?)

I will check, But in Dragonball Goku was able to avoid "Taiyouken" in the instant of the attack he grabbed Kamesennin Glasses and put them on, No one could read his movement. Now that is Hell of Fast, Super Speed! Has to be faster than light?

[Id]

Only against chars. that couldn't sense ki and Once by Cell but he used it then immediatly hid his ki and ran away.
So it was used after the Vegita Saga?

Do you know the exact characters, and the events that happened?

[Phenomenol]

Was the technique “Solar Flare” ever used after the Vegita Saga?
(was it ever used in the Freeza, Cell, and Buu Saga?)

No. Cell used it in the anime not in the manga.

Goku was able to avoid "Taiyouken" in the instant of the attack he grabbed Kamesennin Glasses and put them on, No one could read his movement. Now that is Hell of Fast, Super Speed! Has to be faster than light?

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13398&fname=Taiyoken1.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13399&fname=Taiyoken2.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13400&fname=Taiyoken3.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13401&fname=Taiyoken4.jpg

Thanks Id for the idea! Goku was indeed faster than light!

[Id]

This is something I was discussing with my cousins this weekend (Shion).
And Solar Flare (Taiyouken), was the closet thing to credible light speed attack, DBZ characters have as means of comparison.

But I have a theory on Taiyouken, but the only way I can back up my claim is if some one can post the other instances Taiyouken was used in DBZ.

I know for certain that it was used on Vegita in his ape form.

[Phenomenol]

Sorry No. I will search more for you later.

Taiyoken was easily dodges by Goku in Dragonball, Thus prooving that they moved at lightspeed during Dragonball!

[Id]

Ill ask Final Ultima.

I know for a fact that, Vegita did not dodge it.

As for Goku notice you never see if Goku placed his glasses before or during Taiyoken.
I have reason to believe Goku placed his sun glasses before Taiyoken was released (the moment Tien places his hands in his face and yeals Taiyoken), simply because he fell for the trick (or he saw the trick) earlier and you can only fall for it so often.

I can back up my claim if those scans are found and posted (I’m certain, it was used in the Freeza saga and after).

Proving that at least at this point DBZ characters do not physically move at the speed of light.

On the other hand, if those scans do not show up, and I just gave a way the biggest visual proof that DBZ characters do move as fast if not faster then speed of light.

How ironic in my quest to find DBZ speed, I found my a double bladed sword that can be used for or against me in debates.

[Final Ultima]

To my knowledge, the only time Taiyouken didn't work was when Goku put on Master Roshi's sunglasses.

He wouldn't be able to move out of the way per say anyway, Taiyouken affects a radius around the user, not a straight line in front of the user. That's why it blinds the whole crowd.

[Reznor]

Context matters for Solar Flare too.

I think you are treating it as an attack with strictly fixed attributes and disregarding situations as well.

[hjkou]

its too inconsistent to judge.. all this plot shit etc.

[params7]

I can easily track a jet liner moving across the sky with my eyes, but I can't track a fly buzzing around randomly right next to me.

Does that mean the fly is moving faster than the jet liner?


It's much easier to track something far away moving on a completely linear trajectory than it is to track something small and close up moving around in crazy patterns.



What's so difficult to understand here?
Its pure Sensing business. Vegeta could not sense Ginyu's that were not only moving at 14xSoL approx but where not even in the inner space of the planet, let alone the atmosphere. Krillin could sense it but barely. Yet, when Freeza who not only was closer, but had a higher ki was unsensible by that Vegeta.
The physics of the abilities of the human brain to track objects is irrevelevant. You're sensing Ki or life energy, which is easier to sense when
1. The higher the easier to catch
2. The closer the easier to track

As much as the ki is far away the difficult it is to get a hold of. I don't know why you guys can't accept this, isn't it a fact Goku going at the speeds of invisibilty or tons faster than the speed of Bullet was child's play for him only when he was a child? (Red Ribbon army saga)

Second, since you poeple have obviously ignored it-

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1385/res4010082cc.jpg

Ok. The scan proves it.

Gotenks is supposedly making those trips in within a second or two. All the ki trails made by him from his first trip are still visible by the time he made his last. Ki trails dissapear in only 1-2 seconds, now nobody can say it took Gotenks 20 mins, like they keep saying.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=117445&page=189


NEXT!

[Id]

The ki trails..........Wait a minute.

Okay, whenever a DBZ character fly's with a big surrounded powered up aura, he leaves a ki trail behind him which lasts for 2-3 seconds before dissapearing.
Now if somebody can post the manga scan of Gotenks flying around the world, if there are multiplerings around the earth, it has to imply that Gotenks flew around in around a couple of seconds or less, or else if he took like 5-20 mins, the trails he made on his first trip around the world would've easily disspeared by then!
Buutenks could you please post the scan? i don't know the volume no and all.

However in the anime i can confirm he went exactly 9 times around the world, and the trails of ki he left behind were all still visible when he made his last round, easily implying Gotenks flew in around 2 seconds at maximum because every trail he made from the first trips were easily visible.

Although, this theory could be flawed, ki trails could last longer, for like 5-10 seconds or more, but i doubt it.

If you are able to move at the speed of light, you should be capable of circling the earth 7.5 times in one sec.

Regardless it took Picalo 20 min to circle the earth once!!!!

(so much for that)

[params7]

If you are able to move at the speed of light, you should be capable of circling the earth 7.5 times in one sec.

Regardless it took Picalo 20 min to circle the earth once!!!!

(so much for that)


So you're the guy who's supposed to reply just for the sake of it? Or are you another one of those post count whores? Whichever discription fits you, would you please revise your post with sources and some sense, and exactly what you're trying to imply because i honestly can't figure out what you're saying.

BTW - I've lurked and read your posts. I can see you'll jump at any oppurtunity to pummel the DBZ to as lowest power class as possible. Whether its the Superman vs Goku thread (which went so pathetically offboard here, the thread was full of Superman fanboys bring sources of feats fron non-canon superman comic lines) or this one.


If you are able to move at the speed of light, you should be capable of circling the earth 7.5 times in one sec.


Right in the manga, Gotenks said he went a few dozen times (that means more than 12) around the world and took a nap. If you ask anyone out there, even your mom and dad and ask them what's the minimum range of nap, they won't say less than 30 mins, or more than 2 hours. Second, look at the scan, Gotenks has easily circling the outer orbit of earth, outside its atmosphere, that means he's taking bigger routes around earth than the one implied in the 'In one second you go 7 times around the earth' theory, so even 4 rounds from him should equal 7 rounds of light travelling right on earth in one second. look at the diagram and count the rings he made, and he's going on to making more.
If a feat like that cannot be established FTL here, i don't know what will.

[Kage no Yume]

DBZ characters could not move at light speed at the beginning of the Android's arc.

There is cold, hard, canon, factual proof of this.

When Goku demonstrates IT for his friends, he teleports to Roshi's house and back. The other characters then remark that it would have been impossible without IT. A person moving at lightspeed would have been able to do that feat several times over in the time it took Goku to do it.

[params7]

DBZ characters could not move at light speed at the beginning of the Android's arc.

There is cold, hard, canon, factual proof of this.

When Goku demonstrates IT for his friends, he teleports to Roshi's house and back. The other characters then remark that it would have been impossible without IT. A person moving at lightspeed would have been able to do that feat several times over in the time it took Goku to do it.


That doesn't prove anything at all. DBZ'ers always had 2 speeds. Fighting speeds, and travelling speeds. Goku was fast enough to catch bullets from 10 onfiring military rifles at very close range by red ribbon saga, and being able to run so fast to dissapearing speeds was nothing but literal child's play for him by 22nd Budokai. All that when he was just 10 years old. In fact Krillin, Yamcha, Tien all fought in that speeds at the tournament. But we never saw Goku or any others actually travel at those speeds even in DB. Since they use Ki energy to fly, its possible if they travelled long distances at fast speeds they'd burn up a lot of Ki, and they only use super speed in short bursts only while fighting.

So you're half right, they can't travel at those speeds. And when they claimed nobody could travel without IT could just be Narrative Hyperbole (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=narrative+hyperbole). OR, they meant nobody could travel at those speeds casually, without stressing their ki out. Which, only powerlevels above Gotenks had the ability to. I tend to believe the latter one.

Freeza and Goku's fight apparently was being fought at FTL speeds, look above for the explanation, read and post.

[Shen]

What do you mean? In DBZ fighting speed or and fly speed ? Or just in general?

[params7]

What do you mean? In DBZ fighting speed or and fly speed ? Or just in general?

There are 2 kinds of speed in DB -
1. Fighting/Battle Speed.
2. Travelling speed.

Since in DB, flying uses Ki energy, going super speed for long distances can eat up a lot of ki, that's why they always fight, dodge incredibly fast, but were hardly shown travelling long distances at those speeds.
That's why Goku could fight beyond speeds of invisibility but was hardly shown travelling at those speeds. even in DBZ.

The first one to actually travel long distances at super speed was Gotenks, he went beyond Speed Of Light when he was circling the earth (and i will not reply objections to this who do not quote my posts above). While fighting speed easily crossed Speed Of light by Ssj Goku vs 100% Freeza fight.

[Scorpio3.14]

Right in the manga, Gotenks said he went a few dozen times (that means more than 12) around the world and took a nap.

Can I get a scan of Gotenks saying he went around the world a few dozen times? The translation I have simply said he went around a lot and then took a nap and the picture only shows him going around 5 times. Where did you get dozen's from?

Also, it should be noted that the "and I took a nap" comment was obviously ment to make fun of Piccolo for being so slow compared to him. Flash makes these kinda comments ALL the time in his comics. Remember, Gotenk's personality was very cocky and playful, he wasnt that serious. We have no clue if he actually took a nap or not. Personally I think its stupid, what reason would he have to actually take a nap? He was pumped up and excited, not really a state of mind that you randomly take a nap in lol

However, lets assume he did actually take a nap and wasnt just being his cocky self. How long could it have been? He was still a Super Saiyan at all times so his power level was high, Piccolo should have easily been able to detect where Gotenks was the second he stopped moving and "took his nap". Are you trying to tell me that it took Piccolo (who was quite powerful himself by that time) over 25 minutes to get to any location on the Earth? He should realistically be able to get to any location on Earth in a matter of minutes, that means Gotenks was probably flying around for most of the 30 minutes and then took a couple minute power nap.

ANOTHER THING. When Piccolo got there and Gotenks went speeding off to fight Buu, Piccolo clearly said that Gotenks had 1 minute left of his fusion. Gotenks then races off to fight Buu but as soon as he reaches Buu's house, his fusion wore off. That means it took Gotenks a whole minute to get to Buu's house. How is that anywhere close to FTL travel????

No matter how you look at it this feat does not necisarily show FTL travel on the part of Gotenks. More realistically he was moveing much much slower.

If a feat like that cannot be established FTL here, i don't know what will.

Perhaps you dont know what will because they dont move FTL??? Just a thought :P

[Id]

So you're the guy who's supposed to reply just for the sake of it? Or are you another one of those post count whores? Whichever discription fits you, would you please revise your post with sources and some sense, and exactly what you're trying to imply because i honestly can't figure out what you're saying.


No I’m the guy that stating that if you move at light speed you should be capable of circling the earth 7.5 times in one second. Compared to your statement; ware you state he went around 9 times (your personal confirmation) in 2-3 seconds which still isn’t proof of light speed.

Why (since you want to use logic).
In the vacuum of space, light moves at roughly 670 million mph
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282256.html
Or
186,282.397 miles per second (in vacuum)
http://www.earthmatrix.com/extract57.html

The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24901.55 miles
http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm

Simple algebra, and round up to the nearest whole number and their you have it.



BTW - I've lurked and read your posts. I can see you'll jump at any oppurtunity to pummel the DBZ to as lowest power class as possible. Whether its the Superman vs Goku thread (which went so pathetically offboard here, the thread was full of Superman fanboys bring sources of feats fron non-canon superman comic lines) or this one.


Not really, I ask people to post scans of DBZ characters going light speed since many believe DBZ characters move beyond the speed of light (which is why this thread was made). And most of the scans are from Current superman.


If you are able to move at the speed of light, you should be capable of circling the earth 7.5 times in one sec.

186,282.397 miles per second (in vacuum)
http://www.earthmatrix.com/extract57.html

The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24901.55 miles
http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm

Simple algebra, and round up to the nearest whole number and their you have it.


Right in the manga, Gotenks said he went a few dozen times (that means more than 12) around the world and took a nap. If you ask anyone out there, even your mom and dad and ask them what's the minimum range of nap, they won't say less than 30 mins, or more than 2 hours. Second, look at the scan, Gotenks has easily circling the outer orbit of earth, outside its atmosphere, that means he's taking bigger routes around earth than the one implied in the 'In one second you go 7 times around the earth' theory, so even 4 rounds from him should equal 7 rounds of light travelling right on earth in one second. look at the diagram and count the rings he made, and he's going on to making more.
If a feat like that cannot be established FTL here, i don't know what will.

We have seen the manga, in another thread the scan was posted and we analyzed it. It came inconclusive because we don’t know how long his nap lasted.

Not only that, I simply responded to your post pertaining to the confirmed 9 times in 2-3 sec which by the way =/= light speed.

Also assumptions =/= manga facts.

[Reznor]

Proving that at least at this point DBZ characters do not physically move at the speed of light. Or it can't be dodged because the attack itself avoids detection.
On the other hand, if those scans do not show up, and I just gave a way the biggest visual proof that DBZ characters do move as fast if not faster then speed of light.
How ironic in my quest to find DBZ speed, I found my a double bladed sword that can be used for or against me in debates. Double bladed sword is a stupid concept in my mind. One doesn't use one edge to hurt themselves and the other to hurt the opponent XD

In any case, I believe that you should mention anything despite which side it lends too. If you leave out a point because you think it would proof the other side, then you don't really believe what you are saying.

My opinion is still that they manuever above light speed but not travel above light speed.

Also, it's interesting that it didn't work on DB Goku but worked on Vegeta, Freiza and a group of "Z-Fighters" later on. This is why I don't think it's a static effect.

Also, where does the light come from?

[Final Ultima]

Also, it's interesting that it didn't work on DB Goku but worked on Vegeta, Freiza and a group of "Z-Fighters" later on. This is why I don't think it's a static effect.Because Vegeta, Freezer and the Z-Senshi didn't have quick and easy access to Master Roshi's sunglasses. Not only did Goku notice Tenshinhan assuming the Taiyouken pose before he used it, but he was was also standing very close to Master Roshi at the time.

Also, where does the light come from?One would imagine the sun, considering the name.

Regardless, as always, I'm not taking sides. I point out what I see, and what I know. I don't care whether it's proving or disproving speed feats.

[params7]

Can I get a scan of Gotenks saying he went around the world a few dozen times? The translation I have simply said he went around a lot and then took a nap and the picture only shows him going around 5 times. Where did you get dozen's from?

Also, it should be noted that the "and I took a nap" comment was obviously ment to make fun of Piccolo for being so slow compared to him. Flash makes these kinda comments ALL the time in his comics. Remember, Gotenk's personality was very cocky and playful, he wasnt that serious. We have no clue if he actually took a nap or not. Personally I think its stupid, what reason would he have to actually take a nap? He was pumped up and excited, not really a state of mind that you randomly take a nap in lol

However, lets assume he did actually take a nap and wasnt just being his cocky self. How long could it have been? He was still a Super Saiyan at all times so his power level was high, Piccolo should have easily been able to detect where Gotenks was the second he stopped moving and "took his nap". Are you trying to tell me that it took Piccolo (who was quite powerful himself by that time) over 25 minutes to get to any location on the Earth? He should realistically be able to get to any location on Earth in a matter of minutes, that means Gotenks was probably flying around for most of the 30 minutes and then took a couple minute power nap.

ANOTHER THING. When Piccolo got there and Gotenks went speeding off to fight Buu, Piccolo clearly said that Gotenks had 1 minute left of his fusion. Gotenks then races off to fight Buu but as soon as he reaches Buu's house, his fusion wore off. That means it took Gotenks a whole minute to get to Buu's house. How is that anywhere close to FTL travel????

No matter how you look at it this feat does not necisarily show FTL travel on the part of Gotenks. More realistically he was moveing much much slower.



Perhaps you dont know what will because they dont move FTL??? Just a thought :P




Wow, you've completely ignored my supporting arguments and made up your own little theory, which by the way, can never be proved. Gotenks not sleeping is 'What If'. Till then, what he says is what is canon, or a flashback, or either a scene must've been shown. The context is clear, Gotenks makes those rounds in a beam, then rests. Its what he said, and is what will hold true.


When Piccolo got there and Gotenks went speeding off to fight Buu, Piccolo clearly said that Gotenks had 1 minute left of his fusion. Gotenks then races off to fight Buu but as soon as he reaches Buu's house, his fusion wore off. That means it took Gotenks a whole minute to get to Buu's house. How is that anywhere close to FTL travel????


Gotenks didn't know where Buu was, it could've taken him sometime to confirm Buu's position since he could be nearly anywhere on the map. Second, it can easily be classified as PIS (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Plot+Induced+Stupidity). Used often for Flash and Superman. PIS was later further on used on 2 ocassion, when Super Buu chases Goku, and when Mystic Gohan fly's off to Super Buu.

And please, my arguments in support of the ki trails are based on a fact. Whereas you don't have any proof whatsoever on your arguments. its just a whatif theory. And unless implied by Toriyami, it will remain that way forever.

[Id]

Well it’s a double bladed sword (for me anyways), simply because I thought I found a way of comparing something that resembles light, to discredit the DBZ light speed claims. But then again it could also give credit that DBZ characters do move at light speed. But I don’t really care as long as it adds to the debate.


Note: [I had also suggested using Taiyouken much earlier in the debate]

Anyhow moving on.
Taiyouken It seems to be the radiant light of Ki itself the simulates sunlight in an instant.

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13398&fname=Taiyoken1.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13399&fname=Taiyoken2.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13400&fname=Taiyoken3.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13401&fname=Taiyoken4.jpg

Thanks Id for the idea! Goku was indeed faster than light!

I think it was used on Goku before, or Goku had seen Tein used it before and well like in many manga/anime you can only fall for the same trick twice.

But I know for a fact that it was used on Vegita and Dedoria. Both of them ware not fast enough to shut their eyes or cover their eyes (what ever).

That’s why I believe that young Goku dodge Taiyouken prior to its release of radiant light.


Notice Goku expresion (it’s the second time he has experienced it) he knows whats coming.
http://www.fileden.com/public/2006/6/12/448e1a68de550430577852.jpg


Although the speed he used to run and snatch the glasses prior to Taiyouken was impressive.
http://www.fileden.com/public/2006/6/12/448e1a69a016b487935737.jpg

[params7]

I think it was used on Goku before, or Goku had seen Tein used it before and well like in many manga/anime you can only fall for the same trick twice.

But I know for a fact that it was used on Vegita and Dedoria. Both of them ware not fast enough to shut their eyes or cover their eyes (what ever).

That’s why I believe that young Goku dodge Taiyouken prior to its release of radiant light.


Notice Goku expresion (it’s the second time he has experienced it) he knows whats coming.


Everything you've said makes no sense. Goku knew what was coming, and Tien could see Goku standing still till the moment he instantly let out the solar flash.
Solar Flash is nothing but light itself. Goku grabbed the glasses after Tien let the flare out and before it could reach Goku.
When it was let out on dodoria, they had no idea what he was doing, and thus they openly let themselves welcome the flare, if they had any idea it was going to get bad and could be dodged by shutting there eyes, what makes you think they wouldn't have done it so?


Not only that, I simply responded to your post pertaining to the confirmed 9 times in 2-3 sec which by the way =/= light speed.

Also assumptions =/= manga facts.

Did you read what i said about ki trails, and the trails being made in space? Why are you all so ignorant when facts actually do come up on your face?


@the other guy requesting the dozen scan. i don't have access to any manga now but i'm working on it, request for the scan on other forums and shall get it soon. Till then you have my word that it indeed it does have the word 'dozen'.

[Id]

Everything you've said makes no sense. Goku knew what was coming, and Tien could see Goku standing still till the moment he instantly let out the solar flash.
Solar Flash is nothing but light itself. Goku grabbed the glasses after Tien let the flare out and before it could reach Goku.

Do you have the scan so I can further analyze it? (I’m going by memory).
But what I do know is that, Goku knew of Tien’s intentions, and reacted upon seeing Tien pose for Solar Flash. With his back turned against the radiant light, and snatching the glasses at the same moment so he could then proceed to attack with out being blinded.


When it was let out on dodoria, they had no idea what he was doing, and thus they openly let themselves welcome the flare, if they had any idea it was going to get bad and could be dodged by shutting there eyes, what makes you think they wouldn't have done it so?

Well my point is, if by DB Goku could move at the speed of light (as you claim), then by Freeza saga, Dedoria perception of speed should be much higher. Solar Flare would seem as a vary slow technique, and should give him sufficient time to cover or blink his eyes.

In other words by that time Dedoria reaction time should also equal light speed or greater (but Dedoria clearly isn’t).

Did you read what i said about ki trails, and the trails being made in space? Why are you all so ignorant when facts actually do come up on your face?

I responded to your thread the way you had posted it. Also can you refrain yourself from flaming me.

[Phenomenol]

About Time We got another sane individual, Thankyou Param7 for your insight. Their are so many DBZ haters in this Forum.

Well on to business...

The translation I have simply said he went around a lot and then took a nap and the picture only shows him going around 5 times. Where did you get dozen's from?

That is a weak translation, I have the original Japanese Manga. In Akira Toriyama's "Dragon Ball" Tonkobons Volume 40, page 139: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." I presume this is where the 36 figure comes from! Check with Final Ultima for confirmation.

Well my point is, if by DB Goku could move at the speed of light (as you claim)

What? did you see the scans and the proof that he moves faster than light? Tienshiehan was in point Blank Range of Goku, and yet Goku was able to snatch Kamesenins Glasses in the instant of the "Taiyoken."

Although the speed he used to run and snatch the glasses prior to Taiyouken was impressive.

Impressive? More than impressive, That is faster than light.

[Id]

Did you find the other scans regarding "Taiyoken", their is also an explanation to how Goku avoided the "Taiyoken" following up after those scans. Do you have them as well?


Edit: found a working torrent for DB manga!!!:woo

[Final Ultima]

That is a weak translation, I have the original Japanese Manga. In Akira Toriyama's "Dragon Ball" Tonkobons Volume 40, page 139: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." I presume this is where the 36 figure comes from! Check with Final Ultima for confirmation.While my scanlation is the same as Id's, I checked outside sources, and it is indeed "a few dozen times".

Impressive? More than impressive, That is faster than light.Goku moving about 15-20 feet towards Master Roshi and back without Tenshinhan noticing is equivalent to 186,000 miles a second all of a sudden?

[Phenomenol]

Did you find the other scans regarding "Taiyoken",

Yes, Here you go.

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13495&fname=CellT.gif
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13496&fname=CellT1.gif

As you can see the Taiyoken Goes everywhere in a radius!

their is also an explanation to how Goku avoided the "Taiyoken" following up after those scans. Do you have them as well?

No their is no explanation. Kamesenin just asks Goku "when did you take them."

Goku moving about 15-20 feet towards Master Roshi and back as Tenshinhan shouted out Taiyouken is equivalent to 186,000 miles a second all of a sudden?

Goku moving 15-20 feet in the instant of "Taiyoken" is indeed impressive, which is faster than light because Tienshinhan was at point blank range! So yes Very impressive!

[Id]

Goku moving about 15-20 feet towards Master Roshi and back as Tenshinhan shouted out Taiyouken is equivalent to 186,000 miles a second all of a sudden?
Supposedly because Goku managed to snatch Mr. Roshis glasses before the rays of light hit him. Or He snatched the Glasses while the rays of light ware in mid air.


(Im going by memory so I don’t remember to well the whole event.)

[Final Ultima]

Goku moving 15-20 feet in the instant of "Taiyoken" is indeed impressive, which is faster than light because Tienshinhan was at point blank range! So yes Very impressive!
Supposedly because Goku managed to snatch Mr. Roshis glasses before the rays of light hit him. Or He snatched the Glasses while the rays of light ware in mid air.Not only did Goku have plenty of time to react (as indicated by that one panel showing Goku reacting to Tenshinhan's pose), but actually, the manga scans indicate that if anything, Goku picked them up after the technique was already activate. Tenshinhan didn't notice Goku wearing them until after he was hit, and yeah, a guy with three eyes is gonna pick something like that up.

[Phenomenol]

Goku picked them up after the technique was already activate.

That makes Goku much faster, to do all that after the technique was active, especially in point blank range.:amazed

[Id]

Not only did Goku have plenty of time to react (as indicated by that one panel showing Goku reacting to Tenshinhan's pose), but actually, the manga scans indicate that if anything, Goku picked them up after the technique was already activate. Tenshinhan didn't notice Goku wearing them until after he was hit, and yeah, a guy with three eyes is gonna pick something like that up.
That’s what I suspected, (I remember something like that happening in anime….vary vague memory)

After all its would be kind of dull that Vegita, Dedoria, and SS Trunks do not have the speed perception high enough to react to Solar Flash, yet Goku in DB can???!!!!!!:amuse

[Phenomenol]

After all its would be kind of dull that Vegita, Dedoria, and SS Trunks do not have the speed perception high enough to react to Solar Flash, yet Goku in DB can???!!!!!!

Plot induced stupidity that's all! But Id my friend DBZ characters have been moving lightspeed since Dragonball! and only have broken the light barrier during DBZ. Is it over now?

[Id]

Plot induced stupidity that's all! But Id my friend DBZ characters have been moving lightspeed since Dragonball! and only have broken the light barrier during DBZ. Is it over now?
Right know I’m DL the DB manga. I have on in French scanleted and another in Inglish scanlated. When its done Ill post the scans that explain what happened during the Tien vs. Goku fight.

[Final Ultima]

Right know I’m DL the DB manga. I have on in French scanleted and another in Inglish scanlated. When its done Ill post the scans that explain what happened during the Tien vs. Goku fight.Phenomenol already uploaded the only images to pertain to this Taiyouken argument anyway.

Regardless, I'm still an avaliable source, I don't even need to check the manga most of the time anyway.

[Id]

Phenomenol already uploaded the only images to pertain to this Taiyouken argument anyway.

Regardless, I'm still an avaliable source, I don't even need to check the manga most of the time anyway.

Well if that’s the case, then its how each person interprets panels in the manga. I don’t think Goku reacted in LS in real time, this is further demonstrated in latter arc’s ware much more powerful characters (quicker to) could not do a thing about (reaction time) to Solar Flash.


BTW - Do you have or know of a link to download DBZ manga????

[Phenomenol]

Originally Posted by Id
Right know I’m DL the DB manga. I have on in French scanleted and another in Inglish scanlated. When its done Ill post the scans that explain what happened during the Tien vs. Goku fight.

Originally posted by Final Ultima
Phenomenol already uploaded the only images to pertain to this Taiyouken argument anyway.

]Originally posted by Final Ultima
Regardless, I'm still an avaliable source, I don't even need to check the manga most of the time anyway.

Final Ultima is right Id, you are wasting your time and more importantly mine. I have the original japanese manga, and the Akira Toriyama's "Dragon Ball" Tonkobons which is Toriyama's "Complete" Manga! Just except the fact that they moved lightspeed and move on.

[Final Ultima]

Final Ultima is right Id, you are wasting your time and more importantly mines. I have the original japanese manga, and the Akira Toriyama's "Dragon Ball" Tonkobons which is Toriyama's "Complete" Manga!Speaking of the Tankouban, I want the Kanzenban.

[Phenomenol]

Speaking of the Tankouban, I want the Kanzenban.

Yeah, The "complete edition!"

Well Toriyama did not do much only rewrote a couple of pages that's all.:mad

[Id]

But the scans show they don’t move light speed. Even the Tien vs. Goku one’s.


I also found the entire DBZ anime for download in DvD rip with dual audio and dual subs. :spaz (36 gig file thou:oh )

[Phenomenol]

But the scans show they don’t move light speed. Even the Tien vs. Goku one’s.

Where is your proof?

[Id]

Where is your proof?


The scans you posted:loool

[Phenomenol]

The scans you posted:loool

What are you talking about? Goku just avoided a faster than light attack! All the scans I provide are either showing they move and fight faster than light.

Sorry Id, You loose!

[konflikti]

Not to even mention that it is completely ridiculous to even think that they move light-speed that early in the manga. EVERYONE IS WATCHING THEM FIGHT. THE PEOPLE IN THE CROWD ARE NORMAL HUMANS. There is place for speculation and place for common sense. This is the case of latter.

(666th post)

[Phenomenol]

EVERYONE IS WATCHING THEM FIGHT. THE PEOPLE IN THE CROWD ARE NORMAL HUMANS. There is place for speculation and place for common sense. This is the case of latter.

Foolish boy, The Normal humans in the crowd can not follow their movements, maybe if you knew what you were talking about you would have known this from jump street.

[konflikti]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/konflikti/Muuta/111001.jpg

They can't?

They also can apparently react to this "instant" attack by lifting their arms to protect their eyes.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/konflikti/Muuta/111007.jpg

[Final Ultima]

Quick note, in case any of you have forgotten...

After being trained by Kaiou-sama, Goku took two days at maximum speed to reach the end of Snake Way. Snake Way is one million kilometers long, that's 621,371 miles. If Goku could travel at the speed of light, that trip would've taken him 3.34 seconds.

So, Goku at the end of the Saiya-jin saga can go 1/51737th of the speed of light.

Edit: While Snake Way was hardly a straight path, it's still not enough to counteract that.

[Comic Book Guy]

On the road.

If Goku at that age moved at lightspeed to dodge the Solar Flare, the crowd would have been literally blown away and the arena completely decimated due to a resulting sonic boom; two in number, actually, since he went there and back.

[Phenomenol]

They can't?

Damn right, they can't..

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13506&fname=Speed1.gif
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13507&fname=Speed2.gif

They also can apparently react to this "instant" attack by lifting their arms to protect their eyes.

That's after the fact they were blinded.

[Id]

Well you forget that, Solar Flare is an ongoing technique that releases Ki in a form of radiance for a couple seconds. (Giving Goku plenty of time to snatch those Sun Glasses)

[konflikti]

Damn right, they can't..

http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13506&fname=Speed1.gif
http://www.fileden.com/pview.php?fid=13507&fname=Speed2.gif


Good job. You have either proven that DBZ is inconsistent beyond belief or that Solar Flare is PIS. Or has nothing to do with actual light. "Case closed."

[Phenomenol]

Good job. You have either proven that DBZ is inconsistent beyond belief or that Solar Flare is PIS. Or has nothing to do with actual light. "Case closed."

Yes you are right that DB/DBZ has some inconsistencies and Plot induced stupidity, but the people at this forum on the matter of DBZ are inconsisitent and try to make their baseless points off of PIS!

They indeed move as fast as light in dragonball and break the light barrier as DBZ went on.

[Id]

Yes you are right that DB/DBZ has some inconsistencies and Plot induced stupidity, but the people at this forum on the matter of DBZ are inconsisitent and try to make their baseless points off of PIS!

They indeed move as fast as light in dragonball and break the light barrier as DBZ went on.
No it didn’t. Goku in the 22 tournament did not go faster then light. Solar Flash last for a couple seconds, within that time Goku had more then enough time to snatch those glasses.

Check out the vid fast forward to 1:33 that’s when we see Goku perform Solar Flash - backing up my claim that it indeed last for a couple seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=246rYW_W9e0&search=vegeta%20oozaru

[Jio]

After being trained by Kaiou-sama, Goku took two days at maximum speed to reach the end of Snake Way. Snake Way is one million kilometers long, that's 621,371 miles. If Goku could travel at the speed of light, that trip would've taken him 3.34 seconds.

So, Goku at the end of the Saiya-jin saga can go 1/51737th of the speed of light.

Edit: While Snake Way was hardly a straight path, it's still not enough to counteract that.
This is for long distance, i think this is more aimed at short distance. In anycase i don't think Goku did all that movement faster than the light could reach him, i think he reacted just before tien activated the attack, you see the little thinking spark around his head.

Also, we know nothing of the conditions of snake way, for all we know the air resistance could be so high it dramatically slows everything down. :p

On the