Hunter x Hunter FC

[hgfdsahjkl]

mmm
may be the mods will open it back on january

but no
they have to open it now :pek

[Ennoea]

Monster Hunter must really suck otherwise Togashi would be playing that right now:LOS

[hgfdsahjkl]

they will open the thread
so we can discuss the legendary

Hisoka>>>>>>>>>Kuroro again

good days goood days :WOW

[hgfdsahjkl]

I'd love to hear that one during the invasion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDCwg7diWp8

[NeBy]

motherfucker why so long

I'll reply in a bit

Because short(ies) suck! Even FMA says it! smile-big

Besides, did you really expect something else from me? :wink


this took ages just to put together

BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBL AHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBL AHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH...

J/k!

See? If you want too, you can do it! :grin



I didn’t call it bad because there is no color. Black and white is a visual medium that can be just as interesting as coloured ones. However none of the black and white inking techniques have been applied to this drawing. Black and white utilizes line weight, certain areas are thicker to provide more emphasis. Shading, be it cross hatching or whatever. This drawing has none. You don't have to do a real picture to apply those. In fact it's natural to anyone who sketches often

Art is one half technical and one half creativity – much like literature. You can be the greatest technical artist in the world, but still have uncharismatic or boring drawings. The same picture with the same characters would be 3x better if they were all in unique poses, doing their own thing.

I can somewhat relate to what you say here, but you're putting the bar for an amateur fan-fic a lot higher than me, probably because you're more into it. the half creativity part is also the half that is most subjective, of course, and tastes differ.

But you made some good points.



Wait what. That doesn’t correlate. This drawing can be subjected to numerous criticisms, because it can use a lot of work (or improved if you want a less cynical way of saying it) and is far from perfect. The latter would just be retarded anal nitpicking.

Well, imho, it does correlate. I'm not saying there isn't room for any criticism or improvement, far from it. (Hell, I wouldn't say that even if I were given a million...well...a hundred bucks for it).The difference between that and nitpicking is in the eye of the beholder. I thought/think that, seen in the context it was presented, you were nitpicking as well. With what you say and show in this post, I believe you're better than me AND him, and I don't doubt the technical shortcomings you speak of are not only true, but major let-downs to you. But my point was rather; imagine that you thought a drawing or painting was good, and there comes along another dude who actually knows a lot more and has vastly more experience and skill than even you do, and he has criticisms as well...things you overlooked or didn't find all that important, given your references of what is good.

That other dude could well be right in his criticism, however. Maybe he would also find a drawing that you thought was good as being mediocre and not worth much. But it really depends what standards you use to evaluate it, doesn't it? IMHO, you're right about your criticisms (I'm not blind, after all), but you set your standard for an amateurs' quick sketch a bit too high.



The best is always the criteria for things.

I think this is the crux of the matter on why we come to other conclusions, even though we're both trying to be rational about it. I really can't agree with that premise.

For works that pretend to be or belong to the best, or being masterworks or works of genius, etc.: fine, compare it too all the other great works that are reckoned to be the top.

But for an amateur work that doesn't pretend anything, except being a fan-made sketch that is not too shabby (reasonable for fan-made sketches, that is!!), one can hardly compare that to the same high standards.

If I would follow your reasoning consistently, it would make some things really awkward. For instance, I teach stuff (a sport) to kids one day a week (as a volunteer); their ages vary from 6 to 16, and they follow 'levels' in our system of teaching. Now, of course, I have bright kids, and less bright, enthusiast, and less enthusiast, and good ones, and bad ones. But what is good, then?

I've more then once said to a pupil he was doing good, or what he did was good, but, of course, if I had to take your reasoning (unless you want to claim it's ONLY valid for artwork, but it could have been art-lessons for the same token, not?) I could never say that.

I mean, let's be honest; I have some smart kids there, doing great things for their age and for their level. Obviously, that's relative, and I compare that to...?... yes, to OTHER kids of their own level and age. The same context and subjects, thus.

If I really would compare it to 'the best' as you say, they suck. Heck, how good a 10y old may be at level 3 or 4, I've never seen one that could beat their teacher (me). And heck, even I'm not a master in it; there are people out there way stronger than me. So, what does that mean; that I can't say, or don't mean it, when I say to a boy (or girl) he's doing a good job? Compared to the best (adults) that are out there, ALL kids suck. But of course, you DO have some good pupils and some bad (and a lot of mediocre ones); you don't deduce that by comparing them to the top of masters in the art, but to their peers.


You don’t see anyone admiring mediocre artwork.

Andy Warhol, anyone? :amuse


People always compare artwork to the best, and if it were not top-notch they’d care little for it.

I don't think that's been true since the advent of modern art.



That’s why the best drawings are praised and the average ones are more or less ignored. Also comparing yourself with the best is how you improve your artwork. Frankly I don’t see any good artist, save the pretentious naruto fan artists on deviantart with 5000 watchers who think they’re really really good, won’t compare themselves to the best.

Everyone wants to look up, not down. But there is a difference between saying something is 'tha best' and something is 'good'. Obviously, if one says 'it's the best out there', it has to be compared to the best too, since it is then 'their peers'. I didn't see that pretence of the drawing. And I myself didn't say it was the best I ever saw, or even top notch. But, compared to 'its peers', I think it's fairly good.



Doesn’t apple to all things. How can movie critics criticize films and the acting if they don’t make movies or act themselves

True. But then again, I don't put much worth in what movie critics say. Do you?

And ofcourse, that's mostly due because it's technically difficult to do so. With similar, yet more accessible forms of multimedia, one CAN show it, if one wanted to. So, for instance, a person criticising youtube AMV's and says he can do better would have the possibility to show his claim is right, and his judgement has actual value.



You don’t have to compare it to a masterpiece to know that it’s trite. That work has nothing special about it. Simple as that.

Ah professional, yet another ambiguous term. How good is professional? Cause I’ve seen professionals who still manage to suck.

I agree with your last statement, but then again, we can't discuss and clarify every word, or will be marooned in semantics. To keep it simple, let's keep it at the common definition of terms as it is described in the dictionary. :)




Most people who don’t draw yes. Among serious artists however is a different story.

'Serious' is as ambiguous as 'professional', but for the rest: it seems we agree on this point.



I posted a quick portrait in the art gallery earlier, although I do portraits once every new moon. If you want ink renderings to be fair, here's a comic page I did.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z310/dawannabe/crownedfate1-2056.jpg

keep in mind I'm an amateur as well.

to give my first (and, of course, personal) impression: I though that was good too.

Of course, it's TRITE when compared with 'the best' (as I should, according to your reasoning), and I can give some criticism too; for instance, the hands you draw are not very good neither.

But if I use my more objective comparison, I would have to say you're way better than me at drawing. Compared to your peers (=amateur cartoonists), I would say you're better than the guy who made the HXH group-drawing, but you're (at least technically) less good than Black Bird. But since Black Bird is, as far as I've seen, top-notch in the realm of amateur manga, and I compare you to your peers, I would rate you certainly above average.

Compared to 'the best' that is out there, however, well... I guess you know it's not at that level (yet).



you don't see anyone saying anything good about togashis art. They put up with it because they have to in order to advance in the story

I agree.


people do notice. people with good eyes



being a mangaka doesn't make you good. take a look at the shoujou artists

also

They'll note a difference. But since that difference isn't greater than the difference between his best and his worst (scribbles), they won't realise that it's not his. At least, not for one frame (of course, they would realise it if it begins to affect the story).


spark note and condense your response to this if you expect me to read it

There! I sparkednoted and condensed the post to a tenth of its original size, just for you!! :nod


I will never write a post this long ever again

:Jet

There, there...


At least you've proven you can make an intelligent post as well, instead of only oneliner-spam. :)

Your hard work has been appreciated! :zaru

[NeBy]

they will open the thread
so we can discuss the legendary

Hisoka>>>>>>>>>Kuroro again

good days goood days :WOW

Yes, good news!!

Your spamming days are over! :evil :hehee :kaga

[krizma]

bye HxH fanclub. see you when the next hiatus arrives:notrust

[Eldritch]

that's not sparknoted neby

I only read 1/3 of it



You're taking the methods that I said to the extremes. After browsing countless works of art on the internet you get an idea of what top tier is. But that still doesn't stop me from enjoying the far less skilled work, as long as it's good in its own right and shows concept and creativity. It's not like I compare every single work to the best, however if you want to improve your art it's good to do so with your own work (This is different, you probably got it mixed up).
Otherwise how would I be able to stomach and god forbid even like those fan arts krizma posted. The picture we started this long ass convo for is boring and shows no good points. I do not want to go over with it again. You can write pages of forced praise for it and still. You're not going to convince anyone it's better than it actually is. You can twist arguments. Pictures you can't



oh god and did you just compare me to shilin

she is extremely overrated; especially by people whom don't draw. This is where if you're not an artist you should likely butt out

I'd hate to go into context so I'll just say this: She's better than a lot of ANIMU artists on the web but saying it's one of the best amateur works out there, even if we limit it strictly to the anime category- I can post countless examples and go on for days about how wrong this is but nah I'm done

so blah blah for the rest

[NeBy]

that's not sparknoted neby

I only read 1/3 of it


Whaaaaatttt?! After I scrapped 2/3 of my post just to please you?! :argh :argh

It's the most I ever sparknoted a GWoT!


You're taking the methods that I said to the extremes.

Well, I'm just applying them consistently.


After browsing countless works of art on the internet you get an idea of what top tier is. But that still doesn't stop me from enjoying the far less skilled work, as long as it's good in its own right and shows concept and creativity. It's not like I compare every single work to the best, however if you want to improve your art it's good to do so with your own work (This is different, you probably got it mixed up).
Otherwise how would I be able to stomach and god forbid even like those fan arts krizma posted. The picture we started this long ass convo for is boring and shows no good points. I do not want to go over with it again. You can write pages of forced praise for it and still. You're not going to convince anyone it's better than it actually is. You can twist arguments. Pictures you can't.

You can't twist logic neither! :hmpf

I still think, as far as amateur sketch go, it was not bad compared with the usual amateur stuff, but I guess we're not going to agree on this.




oh god and did you just compare me to shilin

she is extremely overrated; especially by people whom don't draw. This is where if you're not an artist you should likely butt out

I'd hate to go into context so I'll just say this: She's better than a lot of ANIMU artists on the web but saying it's one of the best amateur works out there, even if we limit it strictly to the anime category- I can post countless examples and go on for days about how wrong this is but nah I'm done

so blah blah for the rest

Indeed.

Well, I'm going to be frank , here, and I already knew you aren't too fond of Shilins work, but really, she IS better. I'm not talking about story or whatever, but certainly technical, she makes almost perfect (as far as anime goes) drawings, and her body-parts (including hands, btw) ARE good. She really comes close to a professional level. It's true I'm not an expert in amateur anime, but I did see a bunch of it, and I saw A LOT of anime/manga by professionals by now, and she is equal or even better than some of those. Does that make her better than even 'the best' out there? Well, no, but reckoning she's an amateur, that makes her a great amateur.

I'm not sure how big your ego is, but let it not blind you. As far as I've seen, you're better than average, and better than what the topic was about, but Shilin IS better than you. Did you see the fully coloured drawing she made where the girl with the white hair (forgot her name) is lying in a pool of undeep water? That was f- great. I don't think even you can come up with many (technical) faults in that one. (Well, one can always find some, but that was exactly the point that I was making in a former post).

Is it the best that is out there?

Ok, I'm reasonable, and I can't say I've seen all of the amateur anime/manga world, and how good something should be rated - even when compared to peers - IS, after all, dependent on those peers.

Have you got any links that point to what you consider to be 'the best', or at least 'great' works of manga from amateurs?

I'll have a look, and maybe I'll re-evaluate the appraisal of some works, seen the fact that the comparative worth is depended on works of peers, after all.

BTW, just to have an idea (and out of curiosity); do you consider your own work to be superior to that of Shilin?

[Eldritch]

again professional is ambiguous. she's better than pro shoujou artists and certain shounen ones. Is that enough to make her 'pro', well you decide

I have seen all of shilin's work, and have been following it for a couple of years now. I have read Blackbird as well. Her work looked amazing to me a few years ago when i could barely draw, but now not so much. I know shilin's good for an 'amateur', but it's people like you who overrate her work. You say her work is near perfect anime, but it's not. (Also anime has lots of styles, so anime-style is ambiguous as well) Nowhere near it. Furthermore she only excels in one area, and that's her coloring. If you take a look at any of her recent work, her grasp for perspective and anatomy is way off, which is no surprise since that's something all animu artists struggle with. That's the reason being why her work, as good as the coloring is, is not as good as other ones. I know this is detrimental to my argument, but no I'm not going to spend the time digging through my bookmarks to provide examples

My ego when it comes to art is low. Cause the better you get, the less pretentious you are and quick to acknowledge other artists of their skill, but at the same time noticing their shortcomings. Much unlike you and your rants about how logical you are
Admittedly she's better than me in certain areas, vice versa. I do not have a lot of examples uploaded, and you cannot base all of my skill on that one example I've shown, in contrast to browsing all of shilins artwork/gallery. Also, according to your logic, a fair comparison would be using the works she did when she was sixteen, and not her early twenties.

[Eldritch]

holy shit that was long than your response

I should neg myself

[NeBy]

again professional is ambiguous. she's better than pro shoujou artists and certain shounen ones. Is that enough to make her 'pro', well you decide

Well, yeah, that would make her pro-level, since she's doing better than pro's, not? :P


I have seen all of shilin's work, and have been following it for a couple of years now. I have read Blackbird as well. Her work looked amazing to me a few years ago when i could barely draw, but now not so much. I know shilin's good for an 'amateur', but it's people like you who overrate her work.

'People like me'...hmmm. Sounds a bit patronising, but I'll leave it be. I'm quite critical minded, and not prone to let myself fooled, but maybe you were rather alluding to the mere technical drawing techniques. (Which of course, I'm no expert in, true). But if you say you yourself only started to draw a few years ago, I guess your expertise is not that huge neither. Anyway, let's grant the fact you know more about the technicalities of drawing, but I've seen a number of amateur manga and *a lot* of pro manga by now, so I *can* compare. Indeed, she still makes mistakes here and there - but isn't that coming into the domain what you yourself called 'nitpicking'? Truth is, for being an amateur, she really DOES look to me as being top-notch. I mean, if you have another idea about it, on what basis would that be, viewed comparatively with her peers? Do you REALLY mean there are truckloads of amateur mangaka out there that are even way better than Shilin?

I somehow doubt that, but maybe your resources/links are more vast than mine (I've not specialised in looking for fanmade manga, after all). If so, I would appreciate some links to sites where you deem there is even better amateur mangawork. It would certainly help in comparatively rating other fanmade works.





You say her work is near perfect anime, but it's not. (Also anime has lots of styles, so anime-style is ambiguous as well) Nowhere near it. Furthermore she only excels in one area, and that's her coloring. If you take a look at any of her recent work, her grasp for perspective and anatomy is way off, which is no surprise since that's something all animu artists struggle with. That's the reason being why her work, as good as the coloring is, is not as good as other ones. I know this is detrimental to my argument, but no I'm not going to spend the time digging through my bookmarks to provide examples

Well, one or two links would already be enough. :nod

But by 'other ones', do you mean the upper tier of pro-mangaka, or of other fanmade stuff?



My ego when it comes to art is low. Cause the better you get, the less pretentious you are and quick to acknowledge other artists of their skill, but at the same time noticing their shortcomings. Much unlike you and your rants about how logical you are


I know the subtile variations about when I'm being serious and when I'm being ironic eludes some people.

I AM pretty logical.

However, the rants and exaggerations and the big deal I make about it, is mostly because I'm relativating it for myself, as a form of selfmockery. And also, because it's sometimes fun to piss of people (like you) with it. :P

Mind you, it IS true that I'm logic, and I think more so than most others (certainly on this thread), but there is also a rather subtle irony in it, rest assured.


Admittedly she's better than me in certain areas, vice versa. I do not have a lot of examples uploaded, and you cannot base all of my skill on that one example I've shown, in contrast to browsing all of shilins artwork/gallery. Also, according to your logic, a fair comparison would be using the works she did when she was sixteen, and not her early twenties.

True.

Wait.

Are you only 16?! :argh

I thought you were an annoying old geezer, and it turns out you're rather an annoying teenager?!

Now I understand many of your peculiar un-adult like posts!:

Puberty!!

j/k! (well, for the most part)


holy shit that was long than your response

I should neg myself

Come to think of it, your last posts deserve some praise. I'll rep ya! :laugh

You're halfway there! Towards a GWoT, that is!

[Eldritch]

See this is what I'm talking about. To a person who doesn't draw you find shilins work to be amazing, which is reasonable. But when you actually study art you become less impressed with a drawing. The same goes for the opposite. Like how an artist can appreciate Da Vinci's work more so than the average person, because they know how hard and impressive it is to achieve something like that. Hence why I gave the example of me a few years ago. When I was like eleven or twelve years old I scratched dragon ball z doodles and drew like shit, so when I stumbled upon someone who can draw better than my dragon ball z scribbles, I was automatically impressed. However as you improve, the keener your eyes become and prone to detail- you notice all the little modifications that separates the bad from the good, the good from the great, and the great from the even greater. That's what you don't have that makes your comments sound so ignorant. Somethings can't be explained, they have to be experienced

like sex

which I'm sure is something that you haven't had

no offense

well actually yes



it's not fan made manga, why the hell would I search for those. I was talking about artists in general. Most good artists don't bother with drawing "MANGA" of all things. Unless you're fucking japanese or a weeaboo. Comics on the other hand are much better. Because people actually focus on improving stuff like anatomy rather than how to make their cartoon faces more kawaii

what the hell fan made stuff- look fan artists are the worst out there. you can draw a fan art occasionally if you were inspired by a movie or something, but if you dedicate yourself to only drawing fan art, then you my friend are a loser. You've no creativity of your own and rely on others creations. I've seen so many of those that my reactions to them are either "wasted talent" or "loser"

your selfmockery is gay

what

no

[Eldritch]

by ages I meant five minutes

[NeBy]

See this is what I'm talking about. To a person who doesn't draw you find shilins work to be amazing, which is reasonable. But when you actually study art you become less impressed with a drawing. The same goes for the opposite. Like how an artist can appreciate Da Vinci's work more so than the average person, because they know how hard and impressive it is to achieve something like that. Hence why I gave the example of me a few years ago. When I was like eleven or twelve years old I scratched dragon ball z doodles and drew like shit, so when I stumbled upon someone who can draw better than my dragon ball z scribbles, I was automatically impressed. However as you improve, the keener your eyes become and prone to detail- you notice all the little modifications that separates the bad from the good, the good from the great, and the great from the even greater. That's what you don't have that makes your comments sound so ignorant.

While on itself true, I doubt a bit that you can speak with all that much authority on such matters. A few years of following art isn't enough to make one an expert, and even experts can be full of crap (as we both agree, I think). But of course I don't know you enough to make a real judgement on your skills and expertise in this matter. About creativity and taste in general there is no authoritative answers anyhow, since it's largely subjective. But as for the more technical side... seen your work, I have (logically) to conclude you DO have more expertise than me on that issue.

And what you say above is, in fact, something I agree with, in general. But somehow it comes of as arrogant - much like my rants about logic, no doubt! :amuse



Somethings can't be explained, they have to be experienced




like sex

which I'm sure is something that you haven't had

no offense

well actually yes

Wait, wait...where did this come from? I didn't read that just a while ago, and now it's here! You edited?

But lol at your supposition in the middle, there! :laugh

I'm not a kiddo anymore, kiddo! I've actually had my first sexual experiences quite early and I have had more than my share since then. I doubt, if you are really 16y old, you've surpassed me on that front. smile-big

That said, it's true that I haven't had a long-term relationship in over a year. :oh

Not that that is a reason not to have sex at all in the meantime. :wink

But anyway...this was quite the deviation in the topic at hand...





it's not fan made manga, why the hell would I search for those. I was talking about artists in general. Most good artists don't bother with drawing "MANGA" of all things. Unless you're fucking japanese or a weeaboo. Comics on the other hand are much better. Because people actually focus on improving stuff like anatomy rather than how to make their cartoon faces more kawaii

I like kawai.

And seinen is pretty close to regular Western comics anyhow.

(In the sense which you described, I mean).



what the hell fan made stuff- look fan artists are the worst out there. you can draw a fan art occasionally if you were inspired by a movie or something, but if you dedicate yourself to only drawing fan art, then you my friend are a loser. You've no creativity of your own and rely on others creations. I've seen so many of those that my reactions to them are either "wasted talent" or "loser"

A bit harsh.

If it's the only thing they can do, maybe so. (But than again, if they just do it out of fun, what's wrong with it?)

I think I understand the values you use to judge people and their works, but they're a bit too perfectionist in nature. I mean, that's good in an individual sense, to perfect ones' skills, and maybe you'll become a great artist that way. In fact, I think one DOES need that to reach the higest summit of art-making.

But it also makes one less suited for some things. I don't think you'll ever be good in teaching art-lessons, for instance. A good teacher needs to be able to judge in moderation, and be able to use comparative relativism.

Then again, maybe teaching art isn't something you ever want to do, so that remark could be irrelevant to you.



your selfmockery is gay

what

no

What? No.

YOUR art-studying is gay!!


:P



by ages I meant five minutes

:pek

Let's try for half an hour for the next one, then! Look at it as a form of art, that way, maybe you'll be more enthusiastic! :grin

[Eldritch]

ok cool

are you lying. that was a statement not a question

they are a tad bit similar, but still deviate from one another

you've got a point I'd make a pretty horrible teacher

I'm still in high school, so yeah. When do you see a high school student that goes like "oh boy I want to be a TEACHER when I grow up"

your mother

[NeBy]

ok cool

A remarkably calm answer.


are you lying. that was a statement not a question

Seems more like wrongful conjecture to me. smile-big

I'm pretty sure my first sexual experience was quite before yours, actually. (I started pretty early). If you already had one, that is.

But then again, it's hardly something I can bet on, since there is no way to prove it. And I'm not all that interested in proving it anyway. Comparing dicks (that's also an expression in English, right?) is silly.



they are a tad bit similar, but still deviate from one another

you've got a point I'd make a pretty horrible teacher

Indeed.


I'm still in high school, so yeah. When do you see a high school student that goes like "oh boy I want to be a TEACHER when I grow up"


It's not uncommon, at least around here. I even know a 10y old who said he was going to be a scientist (astronomer), and... well, I know some kids just say it like that, but he's actually quite serious about it, and I actually think he WILL go for it.

I'm wondering about your remark, though.

Has the job of teacher such a low social status in your country, that it's seldom incorporated in the wishes of growing-up people?


your mother

Your goldfish!! :argh

[Abaration]

Spam. :amazed:oh:huh:wink

[Abaration]

Spam. :amazed:oh:huh:wink

spam-spam!

[Abaration]

spam-spam!

Hey, anyone here?? :mad