So, was Tousen really using his full strength against Kenpachi?

[reepa]

I'm willing to bet no, since all along he was decieving everybody along with Gin and Aizen. And afterall Aizen only considered Tousen to be his true lieutenant/subordinate - and since Aizen has strength and is like the main villan now Tousen must have some hidden power he purposely didn't use against Kenpachi?

Anybody can clarrify this? Thanks.

[Corum]

Well once Tousen went to stop Renji from escaping with Rukia he didn't look too fatigued so it would appear he wasn't fighting at his true potential.

[blazingshadow]

he could be fighting at full potential. maybe aizen recruited him because his shikai wouldn't work on him. still it's not like he can change his bankai (byakuya used the same bankai but had different forms for it)

maybe he just underestimated kenpachi

[reepa]

^But if that was the case Aizen could've just killed Tousen easily? There must be a reason besides the fact that he's blind.

~Here's hoping he got some kool strength which he hasn't shown lol

[Sunuvmann]

Well I'm guessing he was going for the most part full power because he wanted Ken dead. He saw Ken as a demon and demons go against his whole "justice" crap.

[blazingshadow]

why kill tousen if he can use him? it's not like he is the stupid kind of evil.

[Dimezanime20]

Black people always like to hide something! Damn Tousen is a disgrace! He could've put up more of a fight, or could've shanked Kenpachi alot harder. Anyways, I wonder, if Tousen is this way, what was the point between the meeting of him and Ishida?

[bujingai]

I think Tousen had used all his power against Kenpachi.
He just underestimate Kenpachi.
hehehe
smile-big smile-big smile-big

[RockLee]

Kenpachi was just the worst opponent Tousen could face.

He has a naturally high reiatsu, shielding his inner organs from other zanpakutos. He has a berserker's mindset, allowing him to fear nothing. Instead, he loved the idea of a handicap. Third, he's not afraid of blades, allowing him to take risks and hits others wouldn't. Fourth, he's a very accomplished natural fighter with excellent reflexes and intuition, negating the drawbacks of losing his sight, smell, and hearing.

[Chi]

What was the point on fightining him anyway. And he was nearly killed.. I don't see logic in fightining someone and be on verge of death and not to use full power.. Why have this powers in the first place..

But Komamura commented something like: "I'm not as jentle as Tousen". Maybe that meant something :oh

[RockLee]

Nah. I saw that as the difference in their technique. While Tousen relies on sharp, dodgeable blades [ShiKai] and depriving the opponent of three senses [BanKai], Komamura is a much more brutal fighter, literally crushing the opponent for the win.

[Code]

Tousen is no more likely holding back his full strength than Gin is. But as with most fights, I doubt a person shows every single ability they posses, Tousen just happens to use Bankai, which wasn't very effective against Kenpachi, therefore causing his defeat. I'm sure he posses many other abilities that makes him strong enough to be of value to Aizen.

But if it turns out Gin was holding back against Hitsugaya (as in not being able to defeat him without resorting to "cheap tactics" and being at a level seemingly below that of Hitsugaya), then I'm sure Tousen may have been holding back, only for the sake of the plot, Such as him not merely beheading Kenpachi immediately after activating his Bankai.

[RockLee]

I don't think Gin was holding back, he was just surprised at the level of effectiveness of Hitsugaya's BanKai.

Tousen's BanKai on its own is incrediably useful, just not against Kenpachi. Aizen may value him just as he is, just for his BanKai.

[Chi]

I don't think Gin was holding back, he was just surprised at the level of effectiveness of Hitsugaya's BanKai.

Tousen's BanKai on its own is incrediably useful, just not against Kenpachi. Aizen may value him just as he is, just for his BanKai.

Well.. It's usefull, but not always..

Look at Yamamoto.. He can simply surrend himself with fire and Tousen waon't be able to aproach him.. He can even just burn all Tousen's sphere..
Byakuya can also protect himself with hi Bankai and attack in all directions, or somthn..
Ichigo can just run like an idiot with ultraspeed so tousen won't hit him..

I wonder if one can just brake out from sphere. If 'yes', than his Bankai will be useless against many other opponents..
Yes, no sences ability is cool, but it's limited on some area, and it's lame..

[RockLee]

It's damn useful against most opponents, not all. So it's still really valuable. You mentioned top Shinigami.

Ichigo? Ichigo is powerless against that BanKai. He'd tire out, eventually.

Yamamoto, Byakuya (he can only defend, though), and Kenpachi are the only ones that can stand easily against his BanKai. Perhaps even Aizen would fall under that BanKai.

[Chi]

I can't see other captains shivering in fear after tousen will release his Bankai.. And they maybe will be smart enough to do things like Kenpachi..
I mean when he avoided being stabbed..

Wel.. I doubt we will know for sure soon.. And the one who'll test it again probably will be Komamura..

P.S. Can Byakuya fly on his sakura leaves? I mean like Goku on his cloud? :oh

[Code]

The things you said apply to most shinigami.

Well.. It's usefull, but not always..

Look at Yamamoto.. He can simply surrend himself with fire and Tousen waon't be able to aproach him.. He can even just burn all Tousen's sphere..
Byakuya can also protect himself with hi Bankai and attack in all directions, or somthn..

And I suppose Yamamoto can't do that to most Shinigamis? Including Ichigo?


Ichigo can just run like an idiot with ultraspeed so tousen won't hit him..

I somwhow doubt Ichigo will react calmy to suddenly losing all his senses. He started running away of fear when he couldn't cut Kenpachi, once submerged in Tousen's bankai, he'd probably be a bit disoriented for a while. Then there's the fact that Ichigo can't mantain his Bankai for long periods, so eventually after running arond like an idiot, he'd slow down.


I wonder if one can just brake out from sphere. If 'yes', than his Bankai will be useless against many other opponents..
Yes, no sences ability is cool, but it's limited on some area, and it's lame..
Again, most shinigamis have Bankais limited in range... Ichigo for one (it's likely that there is some limit to how far can extend before it loses power). All bankais are also pretty much breakable. Assuming that you can simply break out of it, how would you go about doing that? You can't simply run in a straight direction as you'd be a simple target to hit, run around like crazy and wear down your stamina, if you do eventually get close to the wall, luckily before you are tired out, you'd still have to take time to direct the attack in the right direciton, unless you're extremely lucky and Tousen is far away, you'd be hit before that can occur. There's always the possiblity of (if you are unaware of his bankai) being immediately killed while standing still confused.

I can't see other captains shivering in fear after tousen will release his Bankai.. And they maybe will be smart enough to do things like Kenpachi..
I mean when he avoided being stabbed..

Even Kenpachi was stalled for a time being and was cut before he could do anything. It took many strokes and Kenpachi complete lack of fear to figure out that tactic.

[Tsukiyomi]

If he wanted to really kill Kenpachi he should have just taken off his head with the first swipe before Kenpachi had time to figure things out.

[Chi]

For getting close to walls i intendet to use flash step. But it's not he point..

Yes i know that everyone has limit.. What i was trying to say is that if you can break out of his sphere, then it means killing his bankai ability momentaly.
And that's kinda suck.. I mean..

Other has abilities that give them some strength/speed/range power up. But tousen still fightining with his own powers..

Other captains aren't dumb..
Byakuya/Yamamoto/Shunsui/Ukitake etc.. They all are always calm in a fight. And can think stright. And it seems that you can indure more pain in SS than in the real world, means that possibility of someone else coming up with idea like Kenpachi is high..

P.S. Another question.. Can Komamura sit on his bankai summon, and, you know, travel somewhere... Or is it just repeating Komamura's actions? :oh

[Code]

For getting close to walls i intendet to use flash step. But it's not he point..

And Tousen doesn't know Shyunpo? Heck, his Vice Captain seemed to know it. (Well that's merely going by the way he dissapeared, but still somewhat besides the point.)



Other has abilities that give them some strength/speed/range power up. But tousen still fightining with his own powers..

Range? Tousen's 2nd form Shikai is a range move. Strength, speed? Basicallya all fo the bankais aside from Ichigo's doesn't seem to boost physical abilities.


Other captains aren't dumb..
Byakuya/Yamamoto/Shunsui/Ukitake etc.. They all are always calm in a fight. And can think stright. And it seems that you can indure more pain in SS than in the real world, means that possibility of someone else coming up with idea like Kenpachi is high..

Other Captains aren't dumb? So, you are assuming Kenpachi is the dumbest of Captains? Intelligence also doesn't mean you can compose yourself the most or react to a situation like that. I doubt there are much who could've reacted initially better than Kenpachi. Being calm in a fight doesn't mean you'll be calm once you are seemingly thrown in a world of nothingness. It depends on which situations we've see them calm in, if they managed to keep a level head in a situation comparable to that of Tousen's bankai in terms of "Shock value", then sure. Byakuya has been surprised time and time again by Ichigo and even Renji once he used Bankai, we haven't really seen much of Shunsui, Ukitate, and Yamamoto aside from when they were facing a shinigami they know well, so there isn't much room to be surprised, though even when faced with the Yamamoto after releasing his shikai, they managed to remain calm, but most of the commenting by Ukitate during that scene was the fact that it was a well known power. The possiblity of someone coming up with the same idea of Kenpachi is high, if Tousen doesn't kill them before they can get over the deprivation of their senses and think up of a plan. But then again, the plan initially involved Kenpachi's ability to take pain, which I'm sure exceeds most if not all the Captains.

[reepa]

why kill tousen if he can use him? it's not like he is the stupid kind of evil.

lol u got a point there :laugh

Well they say Tousen walks the path of Justice but he probably means justice in his own eyes (er yeah I said that)
and thus goes with Aizen. It'll be nice as to how they actually agreed between the 3 of them (Aizen, Tousen and Ichimaru) anyway I hope this is explained in the future.

[ChickenPotPie]

I'm thinking he gave it his all against Kenpachi, but he'll be stronger next time. :)

[Bass]

I say Tousen held back A LOT.


Why? Because he recovered so fast.

I mean, the way he showed up in front of Renji..he looked fit as a fiddle. (Who uses that word anyway?)

[chibbi-kitsune]

That depends on whether Tousen can use his shikai while using bankai. If he can then he never needed to get anywhere near Ken. He underestimated him in my opinion.

[Megaharrison]

Tousen went all out against Kenpachi, and was utterly owned.

Being outsmarted by Kenpachi must really hurt his pride.

As for recovering so fast, people in Bleach do that. Look how fast Ichigo recovered from near death wounds after fighting Kenpachi.


And my 1,000th post...Hurray.

[Zorokiller]

his bankai just sucks, just as the one of komamura, and the one of mayuri..seriously...a captain getting owned by fucking ishida...omg:P

[Code]

his bankai just sucks, just as the one of komamura, and the one of mayuri..seriously...a captain getting owned by fucking ishida...omg:P
I suppose Ichigo won't get owned by Ishida w/o Gloves(if he even has to go so far...)?

Mayuri's bankai sucks? The only way to fight it is if you can attack at a range 200+ m with the attack still maintaining captain-level power at that distance. Komamaru? Kenpachi seemed excited enough to consider Komamaru and his Bankai a great match and even tought of the possiblitiy of one of them dying in the battle, so obviously Komamaru isn't that much weaker than Kenpachi.

[Bass]

As for recovering so fast, people in Bleach do that. Look how fast Ichigo recovered from near death wounds after fighting Kenpachi.


He passed out and slept for like 2 days...Tousen recovered about a few hours later.

[Dooh]

First of all to clear things out:

*In bleach you aim on certain places where the spiritpressure isn't "high"(critical points on the body), that's why we haven't seen anyone aim on the neck.

*Did Tousen reveal all his cards? Maybe, but he should be able to use shika abilitys and we've seen that bankai can switch to diffrent forms or have attackes.

*And if a captain can't feel the spiritual flow e g can't feel his soulcutter from distance it will be kinda hard for captains to be able to make a good attack

*Kenpachi managed to find out one of the weaknesses in Tousens bankai. The other one I know is that you can escape the bankai if you jump. Because you'll only get dislocated if you run, but if you jump it will be only like one huge step.

[Sisu]

Tousen is no more likely holding back his full strength than Gin is. But as with most fights, I doubt a person shows every single ability they posses, Tousen just happens to use Bankai, which wasn't very effective against Kenpachi, therefore causing his defeat. I'm sure he posses many other abilities that makes him strong enough to be of value to Aizen.

But if it turns out Gin was holding back against Hitsugaya (as in not being able to defeat him without resorting to "cheap tactics" and being at a level seemingly below that of Hitsugaya), then I'm sure Tousen may have been holding back, only for the sake of the plot, Such as him not merely beheading Kenpachi immediately after activating his Bankai.

What made you think Gin was weaker than Hitsugaya? Gin didn`t at all seem interested in causing a lot of fuss or end up really fighting Hitsu. That was just a little skirmish Gin seemed to want to avoid. He had other motives. Hitsugaya was the one who went on a rampage to kill Gin.

Gin hasn`t even shown his Bankai yet so there`s no telling how strong he really is+he is one of the major bad guys together with Aizen now.

[Code]

What made you think Gin was weaker than Hitsugaya? Gin didn`t at all seem interested in causing a lot of fuss or end up really fighting Hitsu. That was just a little skirmish Gin seemed to want to avoid. He had other motives. Hitsugaya was the one who went on a rampage to kill Gin.

Gin hasn`t even shown his Bankai yet so there`s no telling how strong he really is+he is one of the major bad guys together with Aizen now.

What made me think Gin was intersted? Maybe because I recall that's the only time we've seen him open his eyes... (that seems to be a big deal)... he was clearly wanting to kill Hitsugaya with his words, he didn't exactly seem to be joyously smiling at the moment. It's without a doubt clear that he wasn't merely passing off the fight, he may have had other motives, but that doesn't
mean he's any stronger than Hitsugaya (whom was about to kill him.)

He is one of the major bad guys? No more major than Tousen. There are plenty of people who haven't shown their bankai, really the only bankai's from Captain's we've seen are Mayuri, Byakuya, Tousen, Hitsugaya and Komamaru. Less than half.

[AssFace]

Yah Tousen got his ass handed to him by a guy who doesn't even ahve Shikai. If I was tousen I would be fucking embarrased. I think tousen is probably one of the weakest captains after watching that fight.

And yes Tousen fought for his hardest. He was even getting motivated and shit too, but got out beaten. Remember Kenpachi overpowered Tousen's Bankai...I doubt he can do much afterwards. Tousen was halfdead after ONE slash anywasy. Also there's a difference between ichigo and tousen. Kenpachi used a normal slash on tousen, kenpachi used a full powered slash on ichigo.

Aizen probably wanna get all the help he can get so he kept tousen. Why would he kill help?

[GayNinja]

Tousen definitely did not hold back. If you watch the episode again, you will see that he is thinking to himself that he has to kill Kenpachi at all costs. It doesn't make sense to have thoughts about killing someone but at the same time hold back your true potential. While Tousen was in his bankai, he had full intentions of destroying Kenpachi. Everyone else was blocked out of his bankai, so there was nobody to fool.

If Aizen just went ahead and killed Tousen, it would have caused a huge panic in Soul Society. He had to keep his cover, and the best chances was to not do something that would shed light on his plans.

[narutosimpson]

can't believe gayninja wasn't taken yet, with a millino members or whatever.

the answer is no

[jjc]

He passed out and slept for like 2 days...Tousen recovered about a few hours later.

Are we forgetting that Renji has already recovered at least 3 times from the brink of death? And has continued to fight throughout? Who's to say some 4th medic didn't heal Tousen right after his Kempachi fight?

And with regard to holding back. No, Tousen didn't hold back. He was killing for "justice" afterall. But he's sure to come back with some strange Hollow powers.

[Shishou]

Omg, does this even need to be discussed?

Tousen did use his full strength. And Tousen is alot stronger than we give him credit for. But in the world of bleach, some people juss are bad match ups.


1. Tousen used Bankai. Bankai as we know it, is the strongest technique of a Shinigami.

2. Tousen as a person, isn't one who would behead their opponent. Plus I think Kenpachi is crazy enough to move without having his head chopped off.

3. Tousen obviously was trying to kill Kenpachi.

4. When Kenpachi was letting Tousen live, Tousen was mad and attacked Kenpachi. If he was holding back, why would he have risked his life after being shown mercy?

5. Tousen versus other captains, stands a much better chance. His Bankai is very powerful, and unless you are a crazy fight like Kenpachi, who can take the attacks without passing out, you are screwed.

6. Aizen probably took Tousen for 2 reasons. He has a strong Bankai, that can most likely be used on multiple opponents. And maybe even allow for Tousen to make it not affect some people. Tousen is immune to Aizen's Shikai, so he had to get him on his side through logic. Sure Aizen could have juss killed him, but that could cause problems and investigations, since Captains would be the first suspects. Plus Why kill when he can have him join him?

7. Tousen will most likely be stronger next time he is seen. Didn't Aizen steal that thing from Rukia's body, to become stronger?

[Gaaravision]

I'm willing to bet no, since all along he was decieving everybody along with Gin and Aizen. And afterall Aizen only considered Tousen to be his true lieutenant/subordinate - and since Aizen has strength and is like the main villan now Tousen must have some hidden power he purposely didn't use against Kenpachi?

Anybody can clarrify this? Thanks.
No. Aizen said *Gin* was the only person he considerided his true Vice-captain.

He never mentioned Tousen in such a fashion. He only mentioned that Tousen was his subject because of his immunity to Aizen's Shikai, and thus his deception of SS, because of his blindness.

No way Tousen was holding back. Kenpachi is just that fucking strong, something few wants to admit. Hell, if anyone was holding back, it was Kenpachi, not using his equivalient of Ban Kai, by removing his patch.

[Gaaravision]

I don't think Gin was holding back, he was just surprised at the level of effectiveness of Hitsugaya's BanKai.

Tousen's BanKai on its own is incrediably useful, just not against Kenpachi. Aizen may value him just as he is, just for his BanKai.
Gin never fought against Hitsugaya's Ban Kai. Hitsugaya only used Shikai against Gin.

And Gin was most likely holding back abit in that fight. Aizen picked Gin as his muscle, unlike Tousen whom he had to pick because he'd see through Aizen's plot. Gin, hasn't even shown his Ban Kai yet which storywise probably means he's pretty damn strong.

[Code]

No. Aizen said *Gin* was the only person he considerided his true Vice-captain.

He never mentioned Tousen in such a fashion. He only mentioned that Tousen was his subject because of his immunity to Aizen's Shikai, and thus his deception of SS, because of his blindness.

No way Tousen was holding back. Kenpachi is just that fucking strong, something few wants to admit. Hell, if anyone was holding back, it was Kenpachi, not using his equivalient of Ban Kai, by removing his patch.
Gin was his original Vice-Captain, while when Hinamori became his Vice-Captain, she never was his "true" Vice-Captain, merely a pawn in his game, while Gin continued working under him.

While Tousen was his subordinate in the same divison at one point, that was when Aizen was still only a Vice-Captain, so Tousen cannot be his "true" Vice-Captain, because he never was his Vice-Captain.

[Gaaravision]

Gin was his original Vice-Captain, while when Hinamori became his Vice-Captain, she never was his "true" Vice-Captain, merely a pawn in his game, while Gin continued working under him.

While Tousen was his subordinate in the same divison at one point, that was when Aizen was still only a Vice-Captain, so Tousen cannot be his "true" Vice-Captain, because he never was his Vice-Captain.
Still doesn't change the fact that the original comment was wrong. Aizen has never made such a statement about Tousen. The only statement he made was that since Tousen cannot see, he has been my subordinate all along.

Aizen has never said, or indicated he needed Tousen because of his skills or that he was strong.

There's no indication in Bleach, anywhere, that Tousen is strong, for a captain.

Rather the opposite.

[Code]

Still doesn't change the fact that the original comment was wrong. Aizen has never made such a statement about Tousen. The only statement he made was that since Tousen cannot see, he has been my subordinate all along.

Aizen has never said, or indicated he needed Tousen because of his skills or that he was strong.

There's no indication in Bleach, anywhere, that Tousen is strong, for a captain.

Rather the opposite.
There has been indication that Gin is weak for a Captain. There has been no indication that Tousen is on the other hand.

If Aizen could fake his own death, he should easily be able to kill Tousen and make it seem like an accident or someone else did it, but rather Tousen has been with Aizen probably even before Gin became a shinigami, and by that time he could easily kill a seated officer or even before Tousen was seated. As the only reason Tousen not seeing would pose a threat to him is that he would know what's an illusion or not and could possibly give away Aizen's plans.

Unless of course Tousen too useful to throw away. And in what ways are shinigami useful? Aizen happens to posses an object that could allow him to create strong subordinates and make himself strong.

So to say somenoe saying Tousen is valued for his skills is wrong, is wrong.

[reepa]

Still doesn't change the fact that the original comment was wrong. Aizen has never made such a statement about Tousen. The only statement he made was that since Tousen cannot see, he has been my subordinate all along.

Looks like u gotta re-read the original post again buddy.

[Wrath]

There has been indication that Gin is weak for a Captain. There has been no indication that Tousen is on the other hand. Sorry Code, did you accidentally get the names the wrong way round? Because try as I might to ponder this, it's just backwards.

Indication that Gin is weak for a Captain... let me try and think what this might be... That Ichigo "survived" a fight with him, back when he first got to SS? I can't think of anything else you might be thinking of. That did make Gin seem kinda weak... right up until we knew that he let Ichigo survive because Aizen wanted Ichigo alive to cause trouble, giving him the opportunity to go and do his evil plotting.

And no indication that Tousen is weak for a Captain? How about the fact that Kenpachi laughed off not just his attack, but his combined attack with another Captain. Just literally laughed off what Tousen thought would end the fight for sure.

Let me try and put this in a logic sequence for you. To be considered a weak Captain, you must compare unfavourably towards other Captains. The best way to show this is in direct confrontations with another Captain. Tousen fought Kenpachi - both of them at their Initial power level - and Kenpachi laughed off his attack.

In contrast though, when Gin fought another Captain, things were very different. Despite all the talk of Inexplicably Popular Guy as a genius and the strongest ice element SC and seven square miles and controlling weather and everything, Gin was not only able to fight him, but to do so calmly and carefully enough to position his attack so that even if IPG dodged, he would hit Hinamori.

So, in their direct confrontations with other Captains - which, as we've already covered, is the clearest way of indicating their level among the Captains - Tousen came off looking bad, and Gin came off looking good.

Care to correct your obviously reversed statement, just for the record's sake?

If Aizen could fake his own death, he should easily be able to kill Tousen and make it seem like an accident or someone else did it, but rather Tousen has been with Aizen probably even before Gin became a shinigami, and by that time he could easily kill a seated officer or even before Tousen was seated. As the only reason Tousen not seeing would pose a threat to him is that he would know what's an illusion or not and could possibly give away Aizen's plans.

Unless of course Tousen too useful to throw away. And in what ways are shinigami useful? Aizen happens to posses an object that could allow him to create strong subordinates and make himself strong.

So to say somenoe saying Tousen is valued for his skills is wrong, is wrong.Why should Aizen throw Tousen away? Even if he's a crappy ass Captain - which he is - that still makes him better than 99% of the people out there. It's just the fact that that 1% happens to compose a good section of the cast that makes him lame.

Since when has Aizen ever cared if his subordinates were significantly weaker than him? They're just tools to be used or thrown away at his discretion. Even if Tousen is weak now, he can Hybridise him and make him able to actually stand up to the rest of the cast.

Tools don't have to be significantly powerful to be useful to Aizen and worth keeping around. See Kira, for example. Or Deiroy. Both taken out by good guys pretty effortlessly, but Aizen didn't just throw them away.

[Gaaravision]

Looks like u gotta re-read the original post again buddy.
No I don't need to re-read anything. Read what you wrote. Aizen never said or stated that he considered Tousen his true anything. He said since his Shikai's ability only works on those that can see, Tousen was his subordinate.

That's it.

[AbaraiRenji]

I dont think Tousen was using full power while fighting against Kenpachi. Yes i do believe he has somethings we havent seen yet. Trust me there is no way he would still be around if Aizen didnt have plans for him. Even if he was just using him to do evil for him, he would not longer need him now right? He would have killed him whenever he saw fight yet he is still around. While i may believe Tousen was not using full power, neither was Kenpachi. As someone else stated earlier it was just the worst possible opponent for Tousen to fight against. Im not sure many other Captains would not have shown some type of fear faced with Tousen's Bankai and as he stated once you've shown even the slightest bit of fear its basically over. To sum things up Tousen wasnt at full strength and Kenpachi is a fucking nut...PERIOD!!

[Wrath]

Kenpachi the worst possible opponent for Tousen? Nonsense. Worst possible opponent for Tousen would be Mayuri.

Enclosed space Bankai vs poison gas Bankai... guess which one is going to win..

[Gaaravision]

Or basically anyone with a big area attack that would be impossible to dodge within the small enclosed space, like say Byakuya.

[reepa]

No I don't need to re-read anything. Read what you wrote. Aizen never said or stated that he considered Tousen his true anything. He said since his Shikai's ability only works on those that can see, Tousen was his subordinate.

That's it.

Yet again re-reading is necessary for you here.

I originally stated Aizen thought Tousen of his subordinate, and you claimed I was wrong when he actually did? And if you got confused with the Lieutenant thing then try not to think of it too directly. I mean after all all Lieutenants are their Captains subordinates anyway, thats how the ranking system goes.

[AbaraiRenji]

Kenpachi the worst possible opponent for Tousen? Nonsense. Worst possible opponent for Tousen would be Mayuri.

Enclosed space Bankai vs poison gas Bankai... guess which one is going to win..
psh Mayuri? couldnt beat Ishida i doubt he even has a chance to use Bankai before he's beat by Tousen. Either that or that freak will poisons himself just for the fun of experimenting on somebody..man that guy is a freak.

[Code]

Well haven't seen that many overly condescending posts in a while... oh well... and as to be expected from you, a post that can be easily be shortened quite a bit...


Sorry Code, did you accidentally get the names the wrong way round? Because try as I might to ponder this, it's just backwards.

Well, I'm assuming you're asking me if I mixed up names I referred to 7 times in my post (yes I can indeed count, might be surprising to you that I possess such intelligence.), the answer is... no. And I said no because I mean that that's not true, not because I have yet to learn the meaning of the word "yes."


Indication that Gin is weak for a Captain... let me try and think what this might be... That Ichigo "survived" a fight with him, back when he first got to SS? I can't think of anything else you might be thinking of. That did make Gin seem kinda weak... right up until we knew that he let Ichigo survive because Aizen wanted Ichigo alive to cause trouble, giving him the opportunity to go and do his evil plotting.

Icihgo at around a 4th seat level did indeed survive a shikai attack from Gin. There's also the fact that he was about to be killed by Hitsugaya, who I doubt is that strong a Captain. Along with fearing Byakuya.


And no indication that Tousen is weak for a Captain? How about the fact that Kenpachi laughed off not just his attack, but his combined attack with another Captain. Just literally laughed off what Tousen thought would end the fight for sure.

Let me try and put this in a logic sequence for you. To be considered a weak Captain, you must compare unfavourably towards other Captains. The best way to show this is in direct confrontations with another Captain. Tousen fought Kenpachi - both of them at their Initial power level - and Kenpachi laughed off his attack.

Kenpachi, one of the strongest Captains did indeed laugh off Tousen and Komamaru's combined non-Shikai attack. He also laughed off Ichigo's full powered strikes countless times.


In contrast though, when Gin fought another Captain, things were very different. Despite all the talk of Inexplicably Popular Guy as a genius and the strongest ice element SC and seven square miles and controlling weather and everything, Gin was not only able to fight him, but to do so calmly and carefully enough to position his attack so that even if IPG dodged, he would hit Hinamori.

A angry person is in no condition to laugh off attacks. Gin was also in a position to aim at Hinamori so that Hitsugaya will have to take the hit instead of just killing Gin off right there.


So, in their direct confrontations with other Captains - which, as we've already covered, is the clearest way of indicating their level among the Captains - Tousen came off looking bad, and Gin came off looking good.

Group that with my relpy to your second paragraph and third paragraph to get the same answer, I don't care to repeat myself as you might feel inclined to reply to this comment too verbosely, though I guess it'd be smart of me not to even bother putting this line since you might reply to this tooo....


Care to correct your obviously reversed statement, just for the record's sake?

No. It might be because I'm just lazy, or it could be because I don't think it was reversed. But since you think so much better than me, perhaps you should do my thinking for me sine I'm sure you'd think the answer would be because I'm lazy. You also might want to hunt down all the other people in the world that might possibly disagree with you.


Why should Aizen throw Tousen away? Even if he's a crappy ass Captain - which he is - that still makes him better than 99% of the people out there. It's just the fact that that 1% happens to compose a good section of the cast that makes him lame.


Since when has Aizen ever cared if his subordinates were significantly weaker than him? They're just tools to be used or thrown away at his discretion. Even if Tousen is weak now, he can Hybridise him and make him able to actually stand up to the rest of the cast.

Tools don't have to be significantly powerful to be useful to Aizen and worth keeping around. See Kira, for example. Both taken out by good guys pretty effortlessly, but Aizen didn't just throw them away.
Well I do admit that's true but Tousen given his personality that I'm sure Aizen is aware of, is smart enough (maybe not to you, considering how you appearantly hold him in so low a regard) to not fight Aizen directly upon disagreement with something not on the side of "justice", but rather to play along with him as he alerts the entirety of Soul Society about Aizen's goals without Aizen realizing any of it. Therefore even before Aizen could ge the gloves, his plans would be ruined. So unless he has uses as an extremely skillfull subordinate, he's a bit too risky to keep around.

As not only that, he also entrusted him with the task of staying in the Central 46 room while giving out orders, the same task he gave Gin and that he himself did. No other "useful tool" had that task.

But maybe Aizen likes to take risk or Aizen knows more about Tousen than was revealed in the manga, something that would make it sure that Tousen will never turn on Aizen, but you'd have to assume that before you assume that Tousen is such a weakling.

I am also aware that my post could also be easily summed up in fewer words so no need to point that out, but I at least made some attempt to shorten it and my pointing that out was more in response to your condescending attitude (which I'm sure you may just reply to as "It was obviously a joke" or whatnot if you do bother to make an excuse).

[conceptz]

There's a high possibility that Tousen was holding back. However, Kenpachi was holding back as well. If he took off his eyepatch, then he could slide every goddamn thing with one swing. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating here, but you get the point. Kenpachi will beat Tousen either way.

[Code]

There's a high possibility that Tousen was holding back. However, Kenpachi was holding back as well. If he took off his eyepatch, then he could slide every goddamn thing with one swing. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating here, but you get the point. Kenpachi will beat Tousen either way.
It wouldn't matter if Kenpachi removed his eyepatch or not. He couldn't cut Tousen, eventually he was able to after Tousen didn't immediately take off his head, but even then Tousen was still able to fight in the end after taking a lot of direct hits.

So taken off the eyepatch wouldn't have shortened the fight much.

[Batman]

We haven't even begun to comprehend the big three's true power!

[Thomas.]

Obvious he was using his full power, and obvious he will get a lot stronger thanks to the hyoukogo or whatever the name was. They gave that speech of being a hollow/shinigami can break your limits not for nothing.
That was the whole point in capturing that thing, the whole point of soul society ark.
I wonder if it'll work both ways around, hollows being shinigami...mmmm...sounds like crap.

Anyways, Toussen will own kenpachi next time they meet unless kenpachi finds some way to become hollow.

[Chamcham Trigger]

Tousen was willing to die in that fight, so I'm guessing he was using his full power. Why would someone get beat up that bad without using it?

I will say he was an idiot though. He couldn've won that fight easily if he went in for the kill quickly, but that wouldn't have helped the plot now would it have.

[bluewolf]

Its a good question. Its really hard to say in anime/manga weather or not some one was holding back or not. often that is mearly a plot point to allow the person to come back more powerfull later with no explination other than to say the last time he was holding back for one reason or another.

infact with Aizens illusion power its kind of hard to say if he is ACTUALLY as strong as he seems or if its simply part of the illution.. i mean a when Fox guy attacked with his sword Aizen could have actually been using all of his strength holding his sword with both hands to deflect the blow.. but instead he made the illution look like he was blocking with just his hand.

Granted i am sure aizen is one powerfull mofo... i am simply pointing out that Tousen may or may not have alot more to be revealed.

[Hyuuga Neji]

I'm willing to bet no, since all along he was decieving everybody along with Gin and Aizen. And afterall Aizen only considered Tousen to be his true lieutenant/subordinate - and since Aizen has strength and is like the main villan now Tousen must have some hidden power he purposely didn't use against Kenpachi?

Anybody can clarrify this? Thanks.

i thought aizen said he only considered gin as his lieutenant. it was in ep 60 or 61 i think

[namesake]

i thought aizen said he only considered gin as his lieutenant. it was in ep 60 or 61 i think

No, he said he considers Gin his only real lieutenant. That has nothing to do with his power. It's only commenting on who Gin is and how much Aizen trusts him. Hinamori was never his true Lieutenant.

[Masaki]

What was the point on fightining him anyway. And he was nearly killed.. I don't see logic in fightining someone and be on verge of death and not to use full power.. Why have this powers in the first place..

But Komamura commented something like: "I'm not as jentle as Tousen". Maybe that meant something :oh

The reason Tousen fought Kenpachi was because he was disgusted that Soul Society would let a monster like him become captain. That's also his reason for leaving, I think ("This is my sense of justice")

Also, I can't see how you can blind, deafen, and remove smell from an enemy and not be going easy on them.

[TEK]

Tousen may have been holding back but I highly doubt it. Even if he was holding back, I don't think he would have won that battle with Byakuya. Aizen is only as strong as he is because his zanpaktous ability is just savage. Tousen's bankai is already frickin savage as well. The only reason it was beaten is because the guy fighting him is a savage who loves fighting. He lives for the fight and loves the thrill of being cut, which almost makes him seem like a demon. Zaraki may not have been the worst opponent for Tousen but he was definitely a tough one to face. That bankai would normally defeat many opponents. There are very few who could face up to it. The only thing is that Zaraki's fighting style/love for fighting allowed him to face Tousen in a way no one else could and is why Tousen was defeated. That's why I don't think Tousen was holding back. He fought at full potential but his bankai was not effective on someone like Zaraki.

[The Space Cowboy]

Bah...Having Tousen on his side is a necessary thing. For one thing, Suzimushi's bankai probably trumps Aizen's illusory powers (It would also be quite sick against Shinshou's shikai. Can you hit what you can't see?)

If Tousen hadn't been fighting Zaraki, I think--he could have handily dispatched many of the protagonists, including Ichigo or Yoruchi, with his bankai as it removes all senses including the one that senses reiatsu.

I think Tousen...was approached by Aizen because Aizen -needed- him, and because Tousen might have had goals that coincided with Aizen's at some point.

[bluewolf]

Aizen may like Tousen for the reason that Tousens Bankai is similar to Aizens illussion abilit. i mean one takes controll of the sences and one eliminates the sencses

[blacklusterseph004]

I hope he does have additional strength. Then again Kenpachi is insanely strong.
I don't think that Aizen particularly needed him for his strength. It was simply because of his immunity to Aizen's shikai. Tousen is with Aizen, because he believes that somehow this action will result in the least bloodshed in the time to come. This probably relates to Aizen's goals but we shall see. Despite his "easy" defeat, Tousen is still one of my favourite characters, and it would be nice to see if he has any other tricks up his sleeve. Another bankai form/ability perhaps?

[Hitsugaya01]

I think that Tousen was using his full strength against Kenpachi beacuse when Tousen used his bankai on Kenpachi, his bankai wasent very effective against Kenpachi beacuse , Kenpachi found out how to see Tousen, in the dark dome by holding Tousen.

Tousen has a Shikai, Benihiko and Bankai even Kenpachi doesnt know his swords name...

I believe that Kenpachi can defeat Tousen

[HugeGuy]

Regardless of whether Tousen did his best against Kenpachi last time. If they ever meet again, Kenpachi will go down in under 30 secs............whoops did I just spoiled?:P

[sceeZer]

i think he went all out. if he wasent im sure he did after ken-chan cut him for the first time. nobody wants to die and ken-chan is not the kind of guy to let you go.

[cashmare]

well lets get our facts straight here guys. kenpachi is probably the strongest in soul society but not the most powerful as we all now know that Aizen is the most powerful. "LOL". Tousen was fighting using his full strenght but it couldnt match up to Kenpachi's. he knew he had to or he would probably get killed by ken if he played around. so there we have it he was using his full strength but now i think he has grown alot more stronger than then.

Aizen chose him cos he knew he had to get him on his side or the effects of his Zanpaktu will not be fulfilled as tousen would have probably told on him.