Ichigo's bankai: swastika? (spoiler warning) [Archive]

Dimezanime20

11-16-2005, 04:05 PM

..Oh god...This shit started with the manga readers, and now with the anime watchers. Its not the Swastika symbol. The nazis fucked with the Asians and took that symbol, rotating it in [something] degrees. The original symbol was meant for "power" or "release" by Buddhism [I think]. Somebody better should be coming along soon to explain it better to you.

EDIT: But since most Americans or watchers like you won't understand it like this when Bleach comes out in America, they are gonna have 2 edit it.

xenbuda

11-16-2005, 04:40 PM

I was suprised they left it like that in the anime. It seems they usually get changed to a X when the anime shows it like Neji's forehead and Ace's tattoo. It wouldn't really look cool as a X anyway.

narutosimpson

11-16-2005, 05:03 PM

GOOD QUESTION, and I say let's not dismiss it but educate Zodd and others with the same question.

I don't claim to know the exact answer but from what I know about buddhist symbols, the symbol that many say looks like a swastika, is supposed to represent the holy buddha's footprint, and it's among the highest symbols in buddhism.

If you can ( I may post) , you can search images of the giant buddha statue in Po Lin, Hong Kong. This Buddha is gigantic! And in the center of the chest is a buddhist swastika. Anyway this is holy symbol associated with buddha and enlightenment, etc.

edit: here's a website you can find info about this:
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/footprints-bussokuseki.html

Dimezanime20

11-16-2005, 05:23 PM

if u consider it holy and noe dat it is holy, stop calling it "Buddhist swastika"

narutosimpson

11-16-2005, 05:30 PM

if u consider it holy and noe dat it is holy, stop calling it "Buddhist swastika"
Well I said buddhist to differentiate it from the Nazi one. And it's a holy symbol like there's tons of other holy symbols. And if you look at that link I posted, you can find that it is a swastika, from the Indian word for "enlightened"

bluewolf

11-16-2005, 05:31 PM

the budist symbol is totaly different than the swastika. its rotated at an angle and in the oposite direction. In asia the symbol is very similar to the christian cross. you see it on buildings, as pendants for jewelry and in company symbols.

Immagin the confusion if the nazi symbol was a + sign. the uneducated may immediately see the nazi symbol in any sighn that crossed 2 lines at a right angles.

bluewolf

11-16-2005, 05:34 PM

if u consider it holy and noe dat it is holy, stop calling it "Buddhist swastika"

the shape IS called a swastica no matter who uses it for what just like the christian symbol is a cross. no matter what the symbol is used for it is called cross.

the budist symbol has another name just like the christian cross has another name (crucifix) but most non asians know the name of the buddist symbol (as it changes with every language)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Flag_Germany_1933.png/180px-Flag_Germany_1933.png
Nazi Swastika. note that it is set at an angle and the top points to the right. this is called a right facing swastika.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/45th_Infantry_insignia_%28swastika%29.png
the budist swastika looks like this. note that the center lines are vertical and horizontal and that the top points to the left. this is called a left facing swastika.

you can find alot more info on swastikas at wikipedia.

Dimezanime20

11-16-2005, 06:20 PM

understood. Sorry about dat NarutoS.

Potentialflip

11-16-2005, 06:29 PM

Sorry about that Utz. The thread title said spoiler in it so I thought it would be not much big of a deal to straighten things out. Plus all I put was a coincidence since you do see that Kanji Sign in the episode where Yoruichi explains to Ichigo about the Ban Kai. Just pointing out the obvious, if the Kanji Sign wasn't shown in that episode believe me I wouldn't have mentioned it.

narutosimpson

11-16-2005, 06:33 PM

ehh, it's all good.

I didn't even watch the sub, just the raw, so I don't know what anybody said in that episode about Ichigo's bankai :smile-big

Firedraconian

11-16-2005, 06:34 PM

Bluewolf, maybe it's just me, but both of those pictures are right-facing.

Shishou

11-16-2005, 06:35 PM

And this is why america is gay.

Every fucking Manji is racist, when it isn't.

narutosimpson

11-16-2005, 06:38 PM

if u open up the link i had up there, you can see a left facing one...

Vodrake

11-16-2005, 06:45 PM

His guard is also the shape of the Ban kanji in "Ban Kai".
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/6778/126mi.jpg

Potentialflip

11-16-2005, 08:09 PM

His guard is also the shape of the Ban kanji in "Ban Kai".
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/6778/126mi.jpg
Yeah I brought that up already. You could see the Kanji in the episode where Yoruichi tells Ichigo about Ban Kai.

Dimezanime20

11-16-2005, 08:23 PM

Dat and the latest chapter. Like said, the other faces the left on stright line, instead of the tip.

Uchiha Madara

11-16-2005, 08:34 PM

Potentialflip

11-16-2005, 10:15 PM

I know its already been proven but I thought I would just post the pics for hard evidence. :P
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/357/shikai8gp.jpg
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1350/bankai9ko.jpg

Yeah thanks for making my case a little more solid. You did beat me to the punch with it because i was trying to look for a screenshot but there was none so i was going to create it myself but i saw yours.

Lord Yu

11-16-2005, 10:20 PM

Swastika's arent evil the Nazi's just made them that way. Its actually a buddhist symbol.

Zodd

11-16-2005, 11:42 PM

You know what's funny? I started this thread in a tongue-in-cheek manner fully understanding the origin of the Swastika and knowing that the anime had no malevolent intentions... and then everybody took it seriously! :laugh

Please, it was just a jab. Nobody needs to "educate" me, just funny "haha." :tem

Anyhow, just an excuse to start a thread about Ichigo's bankai.

Dimezanime20

11-16-2005, 11:46 PM

so dis was basically a spam..Is that wat ur saying?

Code

11-17-2005, 12:13 AM

And this is why america is gay.

Every fucking Manji is racist, when it isn't.
Yes becuase I'm sure every American said it's racist... and I'm sure everyone who says its racist is also American...

And also didn't it originate in Hinduism?(And is primarily associated with India I believe), and originated in India? Not Asia(well South Asia is considered its own Subcontinent) and not Bhuudist symbol? As I believe the word "swastika" also originates form the Indian culture. And so on... though of course it may not have "originated" there has its been used for thousands of years, but it was a major part of that culture. Not sure if the meaining of "Ban Kai" could refer to the Bhuudist religion or what not, just that people were saying "Buddhist Swastika" and so on like it originated from that and is primarily used it that, while being insulting to people who are "wrong" by thinking it is a "racist symbol" and so on.

Though reading the post 2 posts ago I guess it might be off topic.

RockLee

11-17-2005, 12:23 AM

The swastika is the buddish symbol for life reversed.

Ichigo's hand guard on his BanKai is the kanji for "Ban," or so I've heard.

Tsukiyomi

11-17-2005, 12:28 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

The swastika seems to have an origin in several cultures around the world far before that of the nazi movement, its fascinating how far reaching it is.

narutosimpson

11-17-2005, 01:24 AM

Zodd

11-17-2005, 02:12 AM

so this is basically spam..Is that what you're saying?

How is a thread about an observation of Ichigo's bankai spam? :blink

Anyhow, I thought some people had a sense of humor. Geez.

well, thanks for the spam topic, we ran with it cause thats how we get down!:whoo

Hey, that's more like it. :beer

xeno

11-17-2005, 02:20 AM

I think it was also viewed in Tibet as a good luck charm. Besides, the "arms" on his hilt aren't off at an angle, it just looks like a messed up square. Unless you believe that the production comapny is trying to convert the nation of Japan's kids to be unacepting, racist, people-hating, bastards with bald heads, cause you KNOW that's possible /sarcasm.

Potentialflip

11-17-2005, 04:00 AM

How is a thread about an observation of Ichigo's bankai spam? :blink

well technically I'm sure you did not intentionally want this to turn into a spammed thread. your post was highly concentrated on the whole swastika issue while all this time you just wanted to hear our opinions on Ichigo's Bankai. While if you know the whole history of the thing I don't really care. Pretty sure less than 20 % of the worlds population have a clue of the origins of the thing.

As far as the Ban Kai goes. Shocked the blade not only look normal but shrunk to *normal* (average) size (same reaction I had with the manga). I was actually hoping it had a curvature to it (yeah manga it was curved-shaped) so it could still resemble a bit of Zangetsu but I guess it is okay the way it is. Plus I love the way he looks with the coat; I always thought it was badass. Well that is my take on it.

bluewolf

11-17-2005, 10:02 AM

damn i linked the wrong pic. DOH!!!

Moridin

11-17-2005, 10:28 AM

first up thank you for the enlightening posts, I always knew the symbol derived from somewhere other than Nazi germany but I'd never got around to finding out more.

As for the ban kai itself, it didn;t look quite as nice as it did in the manga but it still looked damn nice. The Zangetsu coat part was inspired on kubo tite's part.

pakku

11-17-2005, 11:56 AM

Ignore everybody else, ICHIGO = ANTISEMITIC.

Megaharrison

11-17-2005, 03:16 PM

I'm suprised the anime kept it that way though, Japan has attempted to erase any and all memory of World War II to their population. Despite the fact that it's a buddist symbol...Everyone still looks at it and goes "oh that looks like a swastika".

bluewolf

11-17-2005, 03:38 PM

not EVERYONE just uninformed westerners.

for the majority of people in the world the symbol is as clearly different as a christian cross and a Plus sign

Shroomsday

11-17-2005, 04:45 PM

The swastika is the buddish symbol for life reversed.

Ichigo's hand guard on his BanKai is the kanji for "Ban," or so I've heard.

Seems likely, as it appears to be the beginning of the word when he says Bankai in the manga (visible in the raws obviously).

Nara Shikamaru

11-17-2005, 05:08 PM

not that i'm an expert but i saw a documentary about the nazi regime... they didn't intentionally take a buddhist symbol and turn it into some fascist symbol of german dominance...

it was one of those, "we need an easily recognizeable, easily repeatable symbol call our banner"

the german bent cross is NOT a derivative of the buddhist symbol.

just for clarification. sorry if i sound anal. i am.

wolfman_120

11-17-2005, 05:15 PM

Swastika Symbol: I hate people who keep coming up with this damn misconception. Find stuff out before you post stuff thinking you know everything....

pakku

11-17-2005, 06:16 PM

Swastika Symbol: I hate people who keep coming up with this damn misconception. Find stuff out before you post stuff thinking you know everything....

You know what's funny? I started this thread in a tongue-in-cheek manner fully understanding the origin of the Swastika and knowing that the anime had no malevolent intentions... and then everybody took it seriously! :laugh

Please, it was just a jab. Nobody needs to "educate" me, just funny "haha." :tem

PS: Kubo is spreading antisemitic propoganda. Zangetsu in Japanese translates roughly to "Jewslayer."

Dimezanime20

11-17-2005, 06:29 PM

[QUOTE=pakku]PS: Kubo is spreading antisemitic propoganda. Zangetsu in Japanese translates roughly to "Jewslayer."

ROTFL!:laugh Funny shyt right there.:)

Soluzar

11-17-2005, 10:57 PM

Fascinating coincidence: Someone was telling me about the Buddhist swastika, and how it was altered by the Nazis in the week before that episode with the Kanji for Ban kai actually came out. I forget how the topic came up, I think it was just about the use of symbols... I remember we also spoke about the sign of the cross, as used by Christians, and the Star of David, as used by the Jews.

Code

11-18-2005, 12:15 AM

well, thanks for the spam topic, we ran with it cause thats how we get down!:whoo

but if u r talking about what's indian and what's "asian", well most people consider india part of asia. Also, if you are talking about buddhism it's also directly rooted in India...Buddha is indian essentially.

Most of naruto's idea of internal energy is based on indian and chinese concepts too, and most japanese customs are rooted in chinese traditions rooted in indian traditions.
Well Osama Bin Laden is as asian as Kubo Tite going by that logic... Buddha is also not Indian essentianlly, as its not even the major religion. I was merely pointing out the fact that people say its a "Buddhist" symbol like it was created and originated and only in use by that religion. Then go on to say "You are an uninformed american idiot, etc..."

not that i'm an expert but i saw a documentary about the nazi regime... they didn't intentionally take a buddhist symbol and turn it into some fascist symbol of german dominance...

it was one of those, "we need an easily recognizeable, easily repeatable symbol call our banner"

the german bent cross is NOT a derivative of the buddhist symbol.

just for clarification. sorry if i sound anal. i am.
Yeah I was wondering about that. Those who bash "uninformed westerners" and so on, are you 100% sure that the Nazis said "Hey look at that "Buuddhist"(not primarlly a Buddhist symbol), lets change the meaning!" As it's been used by many different cultures for thousands of years. I'm sure there were difference in meaning. (Merely posting for the fact that I find people who bash people that are "uninformed" quite annoying. When they themselves may not really know the full story and what not.)

Quoll

11-18-2005, 07:43 AM

Well Osama Bin Laden is as asian as Kubo Tite going by that logic...

Well, Afganistan is usually thought of as a part of the middle east.

Insipidipity

11-21-2005, 05:30 AM

You know whats funny, so many people got wrapped up in the whole origins argument, that noone pointed out the simple fact that while yes it is a swastika, its not a Nazi swastika. The Nazi's used a counter clockwise turning cross while Ichigo's isn't.

Not to mention, due to connotative assumptions about the word "swastika", its more commonly known as a "manji" in that direction.

Anyways, I think it looks cool, but I kinda wish it was short. Its supposed to be small to insult the pride of shinigami. So really, he shouldn't have stopped at that size. He should've shrunk it to the size of a box cutter. THATll put the japanese in trouble :D

narutosimpson

11-22-2005, 01:36 PM

Osama is originally Saudi, neither Afghanistan nor India, and I don't believe it's Asian (techincally the ancient Greeks though Middle East was Asia, but we know better today don't we :tem )

And do you mean to tell me that Siddhartha Gautama, born in India, is not the original Buddha? You should present that at a university then, you will win the nobel prize. Buddhism isn't the major religion of India, but it is heavily influenced by Indian Hinduism, which predates Buddhism (I need to verify that, but I'm sure it's true, anybody wanna fact check me?) I doubt most people here can even tell if when looking at a buddhist symbols, they were Indian or "Asian".

And it's true that they swastika symbol was used for both good and bad. Look at the cross, upside down it means all kinds of different things. What about Pentagrams, I'm sure they weren't always satanic ( i don't know anyway)

Well Osama Bin Laden is as asian as Kubo Tite going by that logic... Buddha is also not Indian essentianlly, as its not even the major religion. I was merely pointing out the fact that people say its a "Buddhist" symbol like it was created and originated and only in use by that religion. Then go on to say "You are an uninformed american idiot, etc..."

Yeah I was wondering about that. Those who bash "uninformed westerners" and so on, are you 100% sure that the Nazis said "Hey look at that "Buuddhist"(not primarlly a Buddhist symbol), lets change the meaning!" As it's been used by many different cultures for thousands of years. I'm sure there were difference in meaning. (Merely posting for the fact that I find people who bash people that are "uninformed" quite annoying. When they themselves may not really know the full story and what not.)

Code

11-22-2005, 02:07 PM

Osama is originally Saudi, neither Afghanistan nor India, and I don't believe it's Asian (techincally the ancient Greeks though Middle East was Asia, but we know better today don't we :tem )

Well my point was that the Middle East is as Asian as India. Though it still is in India, it shouldn't technically be considered Asian, rather South Asian if anything. I'm sure some Pakistani are considered middle eastern due to the fact that part of it should be located in that reigion, and that was part of India until relatively recently.

And do you mean to tell me that Siddhartha Gautama, born in India, is not the original Buddha? You should present that at a university then, you will win the nobel prize. Buddhism isn't the major religion of India, but it is heavily influenced by Indian Hinduism, which predates Buddhism (I need to verify that, but I'm sure it's true, anybody wanna fact check me?) I doubt most people here can even tell if when looking at a buddhist symbols, they were Indian or "Asian".

What does him being born in India has to do with anything? Asde from the fact that Buddhism inherited it from the Hindu religion. The Swastika existed long before Buddhism was founded and he was born. My point was that people seem to think that it originated in Buddhism, as I'm sure even the Buddhist meaning didn't originiate in that religion. Nor is that where its mainly used as I'm sure it's a part of the Hindu culture and religion which predates Buddhism, though the symbol in use has 4 dots surrounding it, at least sometimes. While the posters with a stuck up attitude and bashing America (even though it kind of doesn't relate to the topic at hand...) and those who didn't know that it was a "Buddhist symbol" among other things then claim it in a way that its origins and meaning as in being solely Buddhist. I believe the word itself is sanskrit, a language of India, which is where the meaning of "luck" and whatnot is derived from.

narutosimpson

11-22-2005, 03:35 PM

yes, you are right India could be specifically called south asia, still Asia.

him being born in India has everything to do with it, being Indian beliefs would be the foundation of buddhism, wouldn't they? I'm refuting what you wrote, that THE BUDDHA is not indian, he is.

Wether the swastika/manji predates hinduism and buddhism or not, and what it meant before those religions, well I don't know.

In the context of Bleach, it's a buddhist symbol. Outside of bleach it can have a million different meanings.

Well my point was that the Middle East is as Asian as India. Though it still is in India, it shouldn't technically be considered Asian, rather South Asian if anything. I'm sure some Pakistani are considered middle eastern due to the fact that part of it should be located in that reigion, and that was part of India until relatively recently.

What does him being born in India has to do with anything? Asde from the fact that Buddhism inherited it from the Hindu religion. The Swastika existed long before Buddhism was founded and he was born. My point was that people seem to think that it originated in Buddhism, as I'm sure even the Buddhist meaning didn't originiate in that religion. Nor is that where its mainly used as I'm sure it's a part of the Hindu culture and religion which predates Buddhism, though the symbol in use has 4 dots surrounding it, at least sometimes. While the posters with a stuck up attitude and bashing America (even though it kind of doesn't relate to the topic at hand...) and those who didn't know that it was a "Buddhist symbol" among other things then claim it in a way that its origins and meaning as in being solely Buddhist. I believe the word itself is sanskrit, a language of India, which is where the meaning of "luck" and whatnot is derived from.

Code

11-22-2005, 03:49 PM

yes, you are right India could be specifically called south asia, still Asia.

As in technically Afghanistan is in Asia. But you would usually refer to it as the Middle East.

him being born in India has everything to do with it, being Indian beliefs would be the foundation of buddhism, wouldn't they? I'm refuting what you wrote, that THE BUDDHA is not indian, he is.

"Buddha is also not Indian essentianlly, as its not even the major religion." Well I meant Buddhism, as you can tell by what I said later on in the sentence. I even said in my last post that Buddhism inherited it from the Hindu religion.

Wether the swastika/manji predates hinduism and buddhism or not, and what it meant before those religions, well I don't know.

Well the symbol itself predates those, but its meaning may or may not have. I don't know much about that, but the good luck meaning that is derived from swastika is sanskrit. And Hinduism itself predates Buddhism at least by a thousand years.

In the context of Bleach, it's a buddhist symbol. Outside of bleach it can have a million different meanings.
I said in a post earlier, I don't neccessarily know how it is used in regards to Bankai, it could be for some specific Buddhist reason, I was merely pointed out things about the symbol itself, not specific to Bleach.

Insipidipity

11-22-2005, 08:15 PM

I said in a post earlier, I don't neccessarily know how it is used in regards to Bankai, it could be for some specific Buddhist reason, I was merely pointed out things about the symbol itself, not specific to Bleach.
While that may be true, the reason people are saying its a Buddhist symbol is that thats the reason it was included. Japanese people aren't as familiar with Hinduism as they are with Buddhism is misleading. Its not about the origin, its about the use. Its the same reason why it doesn't have a "Nazi" connotation(well along with other reasons I already mentioned), because the Japanese see it as a Buddhist symbol, not a Nazi one, and not a Hindu one.

I'm not disagreeing that people should know the Hindu origin, but not everyone is saying "Its a Buddhist symbol" because thats what they think the origin is. People actually realize that Japanese people have had a history of Buddhism and thats where Kubo Tite probably derived the design from if not indirectly from the Japanese kanji. So saying that "Its hindu in origin" isn't the point, the point is that the reason why its put in there is because its a part of the Japanese language/culture/religion/whatever you want to call it.

You seem to realize this already on some level, but I think you're getting worked up over nothing and subsequently so is everyone else. And its really keeping us off topic of what we think of bankai. IMO, its...alright. I would've thought with all the power condensed into it, it'd be super sharp and cut through all those shards shielding Byakuya with ease...