11/8/05 = A Feast For Crows - A Song of Ice and Fire, Book IV

[jkingler]

I am so excited about this release that I could cream my pants! Is anyone else excited about this book?

Note: I am buying it tomorrow! :nuts

[Dionysus]

I am excited. I might buy it today. Or get someone else to, since it's my birthday. :amuse I'm wondering if it will have the feel of a set-up book, though.

A Dance with Dragons should come soon enough too.

[jkingler]

A Dance with Dragons should come soon enough too.
Yeah, it is already half-done, but only because the parts of that that have been written thus far were intended to be included in A Feast For Crows:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/done.html

But I am fine with that. Personally, I find the idea of parallel novels to be rather intriguing, and perhaps less frustrating and cliffhanging than the sections from various P.O.V.s and different continents we would have had, a la The Two Towers. :P

Needless to say, this will make the wait until the next book much less painful than the wait for Book IV has been. I can't wait for Rickon, Jon, and the rest of the Starks (at least those in Westeros); and I look very much forward to the next book as well, as I am eager to read Daenarys' chapters in the next book!

[Catatonik]

This series is so goddamn good.

I am glad he finally got off his as and started delivering again :D

I'll probably buy it this weekend.

[jkingler]

I have been reading an Anne McCaffrey book (The Rowan) lately, so I am holding off on buying this one until I finish this or find myself at Barnes and Nobles with friends. The latter is the more likely scenario :laugh

Man, I keep thinking about all the characters! Tyrion and Jaime will rule.Jaime will especially rule, if he doesn't die, since the sort of thing that happened to him usually steels a man (in fantasy novels, e.g. The Silmarillion and others :P).

[Dionysus]

Yeah, it is already half-done, but only because the parts of that that have been written thus far were intended to be included in A Feast For Crows
I know. I checked his website dayly for months.

Well, I finished it. I won't say anything more. :wink

Though, I think I know who the Alchemist is, though what he's doing... beats me. And there is no Tyrion in this book (though I've already read one of his chapters like a year ago). There is a lot of Cersei, and I HATE HER EVEN MORE NOW. DIE YOU STUPID BITCH CUNT!! And Sansa (Alayne) is respectable in this book. Looks like I will say more.

There will be more Arya next book too (A Dance with Dragons). It's not really a parallel book (so I think), as overlapping. The events in the South happen sooner than in the North and in the East. At least, the events Martin really wants to write about. In the South, things happen, then fester, whereas in the North and the South, the events would seems to need to take longer... Rebuilding Wall castles, more of the Others so-far slow creep south, restoring order in Mereen and coming back to Westeros. Not to mention that there are things that happen in AFFC that should affect things in ADWD, mostly people going to Dany and the Wall. And what Arya is doing will take more time, since she was very much the novice at the end of this book.

I mean, this book wasn't supposed to exist. But there was too much happening for it too be left out (this book is politik heavy, fuck you Cersei). Hence the extra book in the series.

I'll discuss more when you've finish it. :amuse

[Oskar von Reuental]

I bought it! :nuts Jaime for the win.

Hopefully, the large amount of pagetime devoted to Cersei means she's gonna die sometime soon. :pleased

Looks like there's a lot of action in the next book. Especially with Dany and Tyrion. Yes! :occa

[jkingler]

More Tyrion and Dany are definitely going to be in the next installation--Martin says as much in the final chapter: Meanwhile, back on the wall :P

The teaser chapter from Dany's POV at the end of AFFC was awesome. The bones...that was a harrowing read, to say the least, and I wonder how Dany is going to handle that!
she was very much the novice at the end of this book.
Not to mention the fact that she is blind! Holy shit, I didn't see that coming. XD

Also: There is a lot of Cersei, and I HATE HER EVEN MORE NOW. DIE YOU STUPID BITCH CUNT!!
...
Hopefully, the large amount of pagetime devoted to Cersei means she's gonna die sometime soon.
Well, with Jaime not responding to her letter, there is a good chance the bitch WILL die! But I think they have to keep her alive until Dany comes to Westeros. I think it is fairly plain (unless Martin is pulling a fast one on me, as he sometimes does XD) that Dany is the prophesied Queen, more beautiful than Cersei, who will overthrow her. Shit, one of her dragons might even eat Tommen, if Dany doesn't get her dragons in check XD. He would make a nice plump meal for that lil black dragon, doncha think? :P

[Nick Soapdish]

Finally read it! (Didn't get it until Saturday night and 48 hours isn't that bad, but the delay in getting it ...:iik )

Man, I love this book!

As much as I hate Cersei, I found her chapters surprisingly enjoyable. Maybe it's because she thinks that she's soo clever and that everyone else is a moron and her "clever" plans keep backfiring. And as shocking as this may sound, Bronn actually seems to be getting even more insolent.

Jaime is probably in some trouble as well. He's got that "untrustworthy bastard" reputation down pretty well so his foes will believe anything of him and it makes negotiating a bit better. But he's developed a sense of honor so he's antagonizing his allies and his sister may manage to drag him down. Plus, he's a hand short and he's got plenty of old enemies and he's busy making new ones, all of which would love a chance to take a shot at him.

Worse. Brienne may get forced to go against him to save Pod's life. She seems to be the only one to have realized that Jaime has turned a leaf (except maybe Cersei who thinks he's just gone weak). So Catelyn thinks that she's fallen for him. And Brienne also seems to be getting the Tyrion treatment. The ugly get uglier.

He's pretty much kept with the theme of all the good guys have to suffer in order to get anywhere. Fortunately, the bad guys are also starting to get theirs. :evil

[jkingler]

Maybe it's because she thinks that she's soo clever and that everyone else is a moron and her "clever" plans keep backfiring.
I loved those parts. When she was tossed in that cell, I must have grinned like an idiot. XD

And about Brienne. I was under the impression that she, you know, died. From being hanged and all. But she wouldn't be the first person to survive a hanging, so I guess she might be alive, still. :P

Btw, Catelyn is super creepy now. Those Myrish zombies are intense! :amazed I wonder who else will be revived...

And to go on another tangent, I find it interesting that there are both The Others, who are undead creatures that make more of their own kind and thrive in the cold, as well as the people resurrected by the Myrish sorcerors, who dabble in fire magic and worship the flame. I wonder what would happen if the Myrish were recruited to fight off The Others :spaz

The more I think about this book, the more I like it. There is no end to the possibilities Martin sets up, and any of them can be right--nothing is sacred in these books. XD

Martin sure does weave an interesting tale. I can't wait for ADoD!

[Dionysus]

You know, Thoros happens to be from Myr, but that's hardly the only place you'll find priests of R'hllor. Isn't the religion supposed to be from Asshai originally? That Quathe (or however you spell it) who keeps prophesizing to Dany, and Melisandre are from Asshai, I believe.

Now that's strange. I just thought of this. The Others seems to be mainly connected to Westeros by land. We don't know how far the land extends. How would a religion which (seems to) directly opposed them not have flourished in Westeros but did in Asshai. Unless Asshai is also connected to the cold far north too. Either that or they took great stock in 8000 year old tomes.

I suppose the old gods might have been similar. There is a connection to the Children of the Forest. I suppose I'll have to wait till Bran's chapters to get more info.

Martin probably made the past encounter with the Others happen 8000 years ago to cover his ass.

On a slightly related note, here's a big-ass coloured map of Westeros (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Graphics/im_map-westeros.jpg).

Also on an unrelated note: I think I might have another idea as to who the three heads of the dragon are. Or rather more info suggesting these people are the heads.

There is something Dany keeps hearing (I think it's only Dany...). Death pays for life. This was the case when her Dragons were born. Drogo was sort of a sacrefice. This suggests that the head of the dragons were born similarly with a sacrefice of sorts. And who could that be? Dany, Jon Snow, and Tyrion, whose mothers died giving birth to them. That is, if Lyanna is Jon's mother. :wink

Now this "the dragons has three heads" business, I'm not sure tey have to be Targaryens, but that would make sense. This would suggest Tyrion is a Targaren bastard, as Jon might be. This could very well be the case, as he does have two eye-colours and white hair (as Targaryens had silver/platinum blondness). It's been theorised that Tyrion was fathered by the Mad King, Aerys the second of his name.

Also, with regards to AFFC:

Two of Edmure Tully's men (knights) have chosen to take the Black. Could it be that they deliver Robb's proclamation that Jon is the King in the North (and Trident)? That would be something. It would allow him to rally the North against the Others, as Stannis is both a fraud and will likely die soon anyway. (Possibly from a heart attack. The guy is tense.) The Black King of the North. The King of the North in Black.

[still waters]

Yeah, the Red God's cult is from Asshai. It's apparently well implanted in Myr, and we've seen a temple to R'hllor in Braavos. As for why it has never taken hold in Westeros... We don't know how recent the religion is. A Fire God may have been worshiped for ages, but we know that the Martinverse isn't static, and that particular incarnation of the R'hllor cult may be young enough to still be in its prime period of expansion. It's barely reaching Westeros now after having spread through the eastern continent, from Asshai. It has all the marking of a new or renewed cult that's gaining adherents at an increasing pace. (Not a surprise, it has its rooting in magic, and magic is coming back). Also, the Others may not be the only servants of the Ice god, and R'hllor's cult may have opposed the Great Other via Its 'minions' in Asshai. Eight thousand years ago, the Others were beaten back by westerosi magic, 'dragonsteel', 'dragonglass' and probably wildfire. There was no need for fire magic back then, they had their own.

And yeah, warging and the Old Gods seem closer to the Ice than the Fire. Or they might be something else altogether, after all the Ironmen believe in a Water/Wind duality, and there's some evidence for the existence of the Drowned God (mainly the 'revival' of Davos after the Blackwater, and that of Damphair). Or 'Drowned God' and 'Storm God' may be the Ironmen term for the power named in Asshai 'Great Other' and 'R'hllor'.

While I find Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion as the three heads of the Dragon a compelling theory, I'm quite hostile toward the idea of Tyrion as a Targaryen. It would ruin the wonderful irony of the relationship between Tyrion and Tywin, and that's one of my favourite points of the books. And nowhere it is stated that the three heads must be Targaryen, even though I'm sure all the characters in the book'll assume so to be proven wrong later. False assumptions, a priori judgement and other similar brainfarts leading to false interpretation of prophecies are a recurrent theme in ASOIAF, after all. :)

Similarly, I'm not convinced that Jon will accept the Crown of the North if it is presented to him. He rejected it at the end of Storm and that was quite an important moment for him. He grew up then, and being crowned would seem like a regression. He's a man of the Night Watch, now.
I don't think she's dead. She probably woudln't have abjured to save herself, but I'd wager she cried 'sword' to save Pod.

[Dionysus]

Yeah, the Red God's cult is from Asshai. It's apparently well implanted in Myr, and we've seen a temple to R'hllor in Braavos. As for why it has never taken hold in Westeros... We don't know how recent the religion is. A Fire God may have been worshiped for ages, but we know that the Martinverse isn't static, and that particular incarnation of the R'hllor cult may be young enough to still be in its prime period of expansion. It's barely reaching Westeros now after having spread through the eastern continent, from Asshai. It has all the marking of a new or renewed cult that's gaining adherents at an increasing pace. (Not a surprise, it has its rooting in magic, and magic is coming back). Also, the Others may not be the only servants of the Ice god, and R'hllor's cult may have opposed the Great Other via Its 'minions' in Asshai. Eight thousand years ago, the Others were beaten back by westerosi magic, 'dragonsteel', 'dragonglass' and probably wildfire. There was no need for fire magic back then, they had their own.
I'm merely adding this to the list of suspect things about it. It's a fishy religion. The fact that some know of what's going on in Westeros, as suggested by Mel and Quaithe, makes me wonder why there isn't large swarms of priests and priestesses landing in ports all over Westeros.

I don't know if the Westerosi at the time (the First Men?) had even discovered bronze 8000 years ago. I doubt they had dragonsteel. That's why Sam (and probably Jon) is questioning whether Valyrian steel will be effective (which it probably is). Obsidian, yes there was that 8000 years ago. The only thing they might have had would be Dawn, the starsword. Martin has said the history of Dawn is murky past 2000 years.

That's one of the pluses for Jon being Ashara Dayne's child. He's the new Sword of the Morning. He is pretty good with a blade. I really don't want that to be true, nor think it is, but still...

And yeah, warging and the Old Gods seem closer to the Ice than the Fire. Or they might be something else altogether, after all the Ironmen believe in a Water/Wind duality, and there's some evidence for the existence of the Drowned God (mainly the 'revival' of Davos after the Blackwater, and that of Damphair). Or 'Drowned God' and 'Storm God' may be the Ironmen term for the power named in Asshai 'Great Other' and 'R'hllor'.
Gods do seem to have regional influence in some cases, like the old gods.

It was purportedly the old gods and the children of the forest who fought the Others before, if we believe the stories. I just find it weird we haven't heard of more cultural things surrounding fire, in the north. It seems like something that would become a part of a religion there. But this is me nitpicking the story. Apparently the Watch forgot the use of fire, but the vow has stayed the same over the millenia. Either that, or the Black Gate has been keeping up with changes in language as well as the vow.

This is fantasy of course...

While I find Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion as the three heads of the Dragon a compelling theory, I'm quite hostile toward the idea of Tyrion as a Targaryen. It would ruin the wonderful irony of the relationship between Tyrion and Tywin, and that's one of my favourite points of the books. And nowhere it is stated that the three heads must be Targaryen, even though I'm sure all the characters in the book'll assume so to be proven wrong later. False assumptions, a priori judgement and other similar brainfarts leading to false interpretation of prophecies are a recurrent theme in ASOIAF, after all. :)
Nowhere is it stated that they aren't Targaryens either. I like to think Jon is (at least in a bastard sense, if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry), and Dany obviously is. It would seem a bit out of place for the third head to not hold any dragon blood, and still be a head of a dragon. I'm talking about symmetry, though I know it's not necessary. Tyrion wouldn't be a Targaryen if Aerys was his father, anyway, nor would it be likely to be found out. GRRM likes to mislead people, and by saying it needn't be a Targaryen he isn't telling a whole lot of anything.

It's a outlandish theory anyway, and I merely only mention it.

I always though that if Jon were a dragon head he might use his warging powers. They might, however, be underdeveloped. Bran could very well be one as well. Warging a dragon would be much safer and productive than riding one...

Similarly, I'm not convinced that Jon will accept the Crown of the North if it is presented to him. He rejected it at the end of Storm and that was quite an important moment for him. He grew up then, and being crowned would seem like a regression. He's a man of the Night Watch, now.
I think he would if it seemed likely to save the realm. If Stannis doesn't die trying to win what he can of the North, Jon may have to stop him from doing something stupid. He might have rejected it from Stannis (but he wasn't offering a crown), but Robb and he grew up as brothers, and it is Robb's will. Jon has shown in the past he'll abjure to help the Night Watch's cause. The situation he finds himself in might necessitate that again. Jon wouldn't do it out of greed or want of glory.

There is already one King in the North who knelt to a Targaryen once. It could happen again.

Hm. Robb already decreed Jon free of bastardy. So he's already either a Stark or a Targaryen, no? Well, I'm no Westerosi lawyer. :P

I've read some spoilers of ADWD (before I read AFFC) from Jon's perspective. It appears Jon gives advice to Stannis as to how to go about winning the North. (Stan goes off to fight, leaving Mel.) Not only does it appear that Stannis is going to be making some big mistakes, it seems that Jon is going to have to sort them out too.

It might even seem logical to people in the book. When/If the Wall is breached, people might want to rally behind the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who seems to have a claim for the North.

[still waters]

I don't know if the Westerosi at the time (the First Men?) had even discovered bronze 8000 years ago. I doubt they had dragonsteel. That's why Sam (and probably Jon) is questioning whether Valyrian steel will be effective (which it probably is).That's why I said 'dragonsteel' and not Valyrian steel. :) But Sam's first chapter mentions that the last hero slew Others with a dragonsteel blade at the end of the Long Night, ie. 8000 years ago. Either 'dragonsteel' isn't Valyrian steel; or there already was a few Valyran steel weapon in Westeros during the Obsidian Age.Gods do seem to have regional influence in some cases, like the old gods.

It was purportedly the old gods and the children of the forest who fought the Others before, if we believe the stories. I just find it weird we haven't heard of more cultural things surrounding fire, in the north. It seems like something that would become a part of a religion there. But this is me nitpicking the story.I think its a good question. The absence of fire in the northern religion is strange. It means the Old Gods aren't affiliated to the Fire, yet fight the Ice. That's why I'd really like to know (from Martin's mouth or pen) whether all the gods and magic ties to Fire/Ice dichotomy or if there are independent forces. The answer'd change the perception of all the religions quite drastically.Nowhere is it stated that they aren't Targaryens either. I like to think Jon is (at least in a bastard sense, if Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't marry), and Dany obviously is. It would seem a bit out of place for the third head to not hold any dragon blood, and still be a head of a dragon. I'm talking about symmetry, though I know it's not necessary. Tyrion wouldn't be a Targaryen if Aerys was his father, anyway, nor would it be likely to be found out. GRRM likes to mislead people, and by saying it needn't be a Targaryen he isn't telling a whole lot of anything.

It's a outlandish theory anyway, and I merely only mention it.

I always though that if Jon were a dragon head he might use his warging powers. They might, however, be underdeveloped. Bran could very well be one as well. Warging a dragon would be much safer and productive than riding one...It would be possible that a Lannister married a superfluous Targaryen daughter, or some Baratheon or Martell. In that case, though, the dragon blood'd really be diluted.

I’m not saying that the Tyrion Targaryen Theory (wah, alliteration) has no support; I just don’t like it on a purely emotional level.

I don't think warging with dragon is as easy than to warg into a being less linked to magic. The links with dragon seems to be tied with the Targ bloodline. It's possible though.Hm. Robb already decreed Jon free of bastardy. So he's already either a Stark or a Targaryen, no? Well, I'm no Westerosi lawyer.Royal decree are no help if one doesn't have the power to back one's claim. With the night Watch undermanned, for Jon to claim the Stark name would be suicide. He'd be flayed alive quicker than you can say "Bolton". He'll probably still be a Snow during all ADWD, and even 'till he can claim the Targaryen name on the head of a living dragon. Nobody'd take him seriously otherwise.

[Dionysus]

That's why I said 'dragonsteel' and not Valyrian steel. :) But Sam's first chapter mentions that the last hero slew Others with a dragonsteel blade at the end of the Long Night, ie. 8000 years ago. Either 'dragonsteel' isn't Valyrian steel; or there already was a few Valyran steel weapon in Westeros during the Obsidian Age.
I think that was Dawn that was used 8000 years ago. Sword of the Morning and all that. :wink

Could be metaphorical too.


I think its a good question. The absence of fire in the northern religion is strange. It means the Old Gods aren't affiliated to the Fire, yet fight the Ice. That's why I'd really like to know (from Martin's mouth or pen) whether all the gods and magic ties to Fire/Ice dichotomy or if there are independent forces. The answer'd change the perception of all the religions quite drastically.
I could ask that when I go to see him in January in Toronto. I would expect him to tell me to read and find out. If he does that I'll just email him the question with a slight rewording...


It would be possible that a Lannister married a superfluous Targaryen daughter, or some Baratheon or Martell. In that case, though, the dragon blood'd really be diluted.

I’m not saying that the Tyrion Targaryen Theory (wah, alliteration) has no support; I just don’t like it on a purely emotional level.

I don't think warging with dragon is as easy than to warg into a being less linked to magic. The links with dragon seems to be tied with the Targ bloodline. It's possible though.
I agree with Tyrion being Tywin's son. If he were a Targeryen, it would just be Jon's situation done over again (probably). (It would get rid of his kinslayer stigma.) The story is still shrouded in mystery, however.

Maybe, maybe not. I think Bran might be used to get the Dragon(s) back from Euron were he to succeed in anyway. The Direwolves seem magical too; it's only the corresponding Stark or Snow who can shift into their respective partner. If Jon were to have a similar role with a dragon, I don't see how it wouldn't come into the story.


Royal decree are no help if one doesn't have the power to back one's claim. With the night Watch undermanned, for Jon to claim the Stark name would be suicide. He'd be flayed alive quicker than you can say "Bolton". He'll probably still be a Snow during all ADWD, and even 'till he can claim the Targaryen name on the head of a living dragon. Nobody'd take him seriously otherwise.
Jon should have the support of all the Houses minus the Boltons (and perhaps the Karstarks...). You're right, though, someone would have to play some major politics.

You seem to forget Stannis, however. From what I've been spoilt, Stannis plans to beseige the Dreadfort (using wildlings too...). Jon says him this is stupid, and tells of a better plan. (He justifies giving advice, thinks it is not taking sides in the conflict.) Roose is still below, in the Neck. There is going to be fighting amongst Iron men and Flayed men and... Flamed men. In the end, I think Jon will have to do something, either before the Others come, or during. Perhaps even Arya helps out, with some assassinations. That's all is really needed, a few select killings and people will be looking for an effective leader.

I just hope Jon doesn't seek Melisandre's help. She will be spending a lot of time wiht Jon, I hear. She might even realise what an idiot she has been. What she'll mean to do with Jon...

I really do think Jon will have to take more of a role south of the Wall. Dany is so so far away, and having Jon wait for her... Martin also hinted to someone (there's a So Spake Martin section on Westeros.org where you can find some of this) that there will be something akin to a second Dance of the Dragons. He also said that this will no longer be in synch with the book titles (no 5 year gap). The First Dance of the Dragons was a dispute over the Iron Throne. Aegon II (crowned by the Kingmaker, a Kingsguard) and his elder sister Rhaenyra (who was willed the throne from her father, King Viserys I) both died in the conflict, and both sides used actual dragons.

Whether the second dance will be completely about real dragons... Or whether Dany and Jon quarrel. I don't know why they would, but I'm not expecting Dany and Jon to just become fast friends either. [Gah. I want to says something else of what I know happens in ADWD... But I won't. :P ]

[still waters]

I think that was Dawn that was used 8000 years ago. Sword of the Morning and all that. ;)Excellent catch on the Sword of the Morning. It's indeed possible that the 'dragonsteel' part is misdirection. But Dawn is in Dorne; Edric Dayne in the Seven Cities and Dany in Meeren. It'd require a deft bit of narrative juggling to pit the sword against an Other again, unless Martin augment the number of books once more.You seem to forget Stannis, however. From what I've been spoilt, Stannis plans to beseige the Dreadfort (using wildlings too...). Jon says him this is stupid, and tells of a better plan. (He justifies giving advice, thinks it is not taking sides in the conflict.) Roose is still below, in the Neck. There is going to be fighting amongst Iron men and Flayed men and... Flamed men. In the end, I think Jon will have to do something, either before the Others come, or during.You're right about Stannis complicating everything. But we're trying to guess the evolution of Martin's political intrigue here, and that's bound to fail. And whilst it's possible for Stannis to might have outlived his usefulness now that Melisandre and Jon are in contact, I doubt he'll do that many errors. The North is rife to take, for whom got the manpower, and I'd like to see Stannis redefine the political landscape, before going down in a deafening gritting of teeth. I appreciate the old bastard :).I just hope Jon doesn't seek Melisandre's help. She will be spending a lot of time wiht Jon, I hear. She might even realise what an idiot she has been. What she'll mean to do with Jon...Jon wouldn't, but Commander Snow probably will. He's got to, at that point. Melisandre magic is one of the few think he has to fight the Others, and he has proved not to be averse to a certain ruthlessness.Whether the second dance will be completely about real dragons... Or whether Dany and Jon quarrel. I don't know why they would, but I'm not expecting Dany and Jon to just become fast friends either. [Gah. I want to says something else of what I know happens in ADWD... But I won't.]Something about Dany's dragons getting difficult to control and snacking on random citizens? May be it. It could also be Melisandre finally hatching a stone dragon, though. After all, her efforts have to lead to something one day and Shireen (or even Stannis) may be the one to pay the price for that.I could ask that when I go to see him in January in Toronto. I would expect him to tell me to read and find out. If he does that I'll just email him the question with a slight rewording...That'd just be awesome. :)

[Dionysus]

Excellent catch on the Sword of the Morning. It's indeed possible that the 'dragonsteel' part is misdirection. But Dawn is in Dorne; Edric Dayne in the Seven Cities and Dany in Meeren. It'd require a deft bit of narrative juggling to pit the sword against an Other again, unless Martin augment the number of books once more.
It's been 8000 years. The sword has probably changed families over the 2000 years of confirmed history. Dany will likely land in the south of Westeros (a Quaithe "telling"), there's still plenty of time. It doesn't need to be a Dayne, in fact, it's only out of Ned's honour that it is still in their hands.


You're right about Stannis complicating everything. But we're trying to guess the evolution of Martin's political intrigue here, and that's bound to fail. And whilst it's possible for Stannis to might have outlived his usefulness now that Melisandre and Jon are in contact, I doubt he'll do that many errors. The North is rife to take, for whom got the manpower, and I'd like to see Stannis redefine the political landscape, before going down in a deafening gritting of teeth. I appreciate the old bastard :).
I just see Jon picking up the pieces and rallying the North when the time comes. :wink Though I don't obviously know Stannis would be killed, if he is.

Jon wouldn't, but Commander Snow probably will. He's got to, at that point. Melisandre magic is one of the few think he has to fight the Others, and he has proved not to be averse to a certain ruthlessness.
Well, I really meant to add, that he'd have to be the dominant partner. Only in that case. She does give him info on what she sees in the flames. Jon seems to have a healthy scepticism of her, seeing her sway over Stannis. Jon doesn't take to the (what he sees as) unethical practices of Mel, at least at the beginning of the next book (damn those spoilers!).

I can't wait till we know what Aemon told Jon to read.

Something about Dany's dragons getting difficult to control and snacking on random citizens? May be it. It could also be Melisandre finally hatching a stone dragon, though. After all, her efforts have to lead to something one day and Shireen (or even Stannis) may be the one to pay the price for that.
Ah, screw it. I'll put it in another layer of spoiler tags. :P

Dany chains her dragons in response to one eating the human. Drogon breaks free later and takes off. It read as if Drogon didn't intend on coming back (though who can say?). It got me wondering if the dragons would seek the other heads, especially in times of need. Or if Mel (or Euron, though, he's less likely) could have been a catalyst.

I forget what point was originally, and why I brought this up. Ah. Well.

I plan on having a short list of good questions to ask, hopefully ones he'll answer.

[Moridin]

Hell I completely missed this release date O_o, looks like I'm going to have to go and buy a copy asap!

edit: bought my copy, reading time