why do you choose to believe in god?

[rimpelcut]

i have no clue because i think it is for every one a personal matter. But maybe discussing about this will make things clear.

ps. we are philosophizing here, so try questioning your views and opinions as far possible. solely concentrate on the question. not just mmmm..god, but, why mmmm...god ? and when you start get confused quickly write it down.:wink ?
I hope you do not get the feeling that this is a religion vs disbelievers thing because it's not. I want to talk to you like a person does with a friend, discussing about eachothers views.

[martryn]

I believe in God because.... hmmm.... I don't know. I just do. Faith. *shrug* I guess growing up in the Bible belt didn't hurt. Some people call where I live the buckle.

[ANBU87]

God's shown himself to me. Well, its not like he just appeared and said, 'hey simon, i'm god" Its not like Joan of Arcadia. But he's done things in my life...can't really deny that they aren't God's actions. Plus there's the whole grace and mercy thing. He's really graceful to me. ^^; And I'm just way too undeserving of his grace and mercy. And then there's the sacrificing his son so that our sins can be forgiven

[Kyuriko]

I suppose I believe in God because I was raised in a Christian family, and over the years, I believed in him more and more. When I think of how good my life is now, I automatically have a thought in the back of my mind that I am lucky to have been blessed like this. For me, it's the way I've been taught and raised for why I believe in him. There are probably other reasons too, but I really can't seem to figure out what they are at the moment.

[skunkworks]

Something sparked the existance of the universe, I call it god.

[Riles481]

I believe in God simply because He is what I want to believe in.

[UltimateUchiha]

I do cause I can feel it I just know that there is somthing else out there that made this all I not sure exactically just some of my experiences tell me there is somthing else out there

[SaitouBatch]

This thread makes a lot more sense than its counterpart. It's more rational to ask people why they DO believe in some fantastic being that defies all logic and science who has absolutely no supporting evidence than to ask why you WOULDNT believe in it. Its like asking "Why dont you believe in invisible unicorns?" Clearly it makes more sense to ask why you would choose to believe in them. Anyway obviously I dont believe in god, so there you go...

[rimpelcut]

I believe in God because.... hmmm.... I don't know. I just do. Faith. *shrug* I guess growing up in the Bible belt didn't hurt. Some people call where I live the buckle.

So it is like a social thing?

God's shown himself to me. Well, its not like he just appeared and said, 'hey simon, i'm god" Its not like Joan of Arcadia. But he's done things in my life...can't really deny that they aren't God's actions. Plus there's the whole grace and mercy thing. He's really graceful to me. ^^; And I'm just way too undeserving of his grace and mercy. And then there's the sacrificing his son so that our sins can be forgiven

what has he done. is he graceful because the image of whatever he does to you makes your problems or stresses go away or do you like the fantasy of having a god. living in a world created by god. what made you believe in god?
I am not familiar to christiany but why would god not just forgive instead of sacraficing his son? or did he have to sacrifice his son so the sins could be forgiven?

I suppose I believe in God because I was raised in a Christian family, and over the years, I believed in him more and more. When I think of how good my life is now, I automatically have a thought in the back of my mind that I am lucky to have been blessed like this. For me, it's the way I've been taught and raised for why I believe in him. There are probably other reasons too, but I really can't seem to figure out what they are at the moment.

ok, so your culture made views of certain things in live. But when I think about you saying that you see him as a reason for solving problems your problems I don't understand cuz you did it. try to remember what you thought then.

Something sparked the existance of the universe, I call it god.
Yup that could be. because it is afterall whatever. it could be matrix or just a invention of an alien. Because of this I can let my imagination let go. When it comes to existances I understand that there is only live. there isn't something that came from nothing. it would be unlogical.

I believe in God simply because He is what I want to believe in.
why do you want to believe in him?

I do cause I can feel it I just know that there is somthing else out there that made this all I not sure exactically just some of my experiences tell me there is somthing else out there

Which experiences? and why does that something have to be god you think?

This thread makes a lot more sense than its counterpart. It's more rational to ask people why they DO believe in some fantastic being that defies all logic and science who has absolutely no supporting evidence than to ask why you WOULDNT believe in it. Its like asking "Why dont you believe in invisible unicorns?" Clearly it makes more sense to ask why you would choose to believe in them. Anyway obviously I dont believe in god, so there you go...

I feel so to. I made this thread so I can understand reliqion better. There is no need to discriminate between believers and no believers simply because they may be right in a indirect way(since there is no evidence):
one believes that god made it, another knows that it is actually factored by things that can be "seen", another doesn't know but also doesn't believe in god. Only one has problems and he can choose 2 directions. When it comes to mentality it has a big impact on our world: how far you succeed in sport depends on mind, how far you succeed in science depends on mind: how far you succed with girls depends on mind. your life is mind. believe me when you realize ,meaning making it real, that live becomes exciting, all the time.

!!!please people don't post because that is that and this is this he is that and this is he because the rest of us cannot see that and this. We are talking about things that only a few have seen.
please when saying a fact that you believe post why that is or how that has an impact on things.!!!

me?:I have prayed and I believe in gods,

wipes of sweet from the huge hamburger he just ate and all of the quotes he had to copy paste.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

I believe simply because it gives me comfort. I'll admit that. I need something to live for, and since my own philosophies have ruled out such things as material and money, there is a greater purpose to live for by believing in God. The Jews know God exists and they've known since time on earth began, so that's good enough for me. Yeah. :noworry

[rimpelcut]

I believe simply because it gives me comfort. I'll admit that. I need something to live for, and since my own philosophies have ruled out such things as material and money, there is a greater purpose to live for by believing in God. The Jews know God exists and they've known since time on earth began, so that's good enough for me. Yeah. :noworry


what greater purpose? What idea gives you comfort?

[fukush]

Ignorance is blizz :amuse

Very good question.
I dont even know how anyone can answer that question, I mean... how the hell can u belive in something that dosnt exist?
He dosnt exist, until proven wrong. - "If God exist, then he sure is an evil foe" - Ramano

[skunkworks]

I believe simply because it gives me comfort. I'll admit that. I need something to live for, and since my own philosophies have ruled out such things as material and money, there is a greater purpose to live for by believing in God. The Jews know God exists and they've known since time on earth began, so that's good enough for me. Yeah. :noworry

So are you Jewish? Or do you just believe in the OT and what not?

[Aldredian_Sahn]

what greater purpose? What idea gives you comfort?
I guess I don't have my thoughts down in order, so some of my ideas may seem rambled and uncomplete, but here they are:

It's comforting to think that there is a set goal out there and that everyone isn't just philosophizing and making up their own ideas. I like the real. If something isn't real, it's a disappointment to me, like a really great movie. If the movie is based off of a real-life experience, there's more meaning to it than if someone just made it up. I realize that could go either way with believing in a god, for we don't know for sure if it exists or not, so:

I'm a story kind of person. I like to have a beginning and I like to have an end, a closure. Everything has a story, every person has a story, the universe has a story. I want to know these stories. Some can be told, other's cannot. If there is a God, then those stories can be shared. If there is no God, every story ever written, ever believed in, ever lived, will all be lost one day and the world loses meaning for me without stories. If nothing is real, if everything is new all the time, something important is lost. And what is lost can never be gained back in full.

And also, it's comforting to think that even when I'm by myself, I'm not alone. That there is something watching my back, something that cares, something that can share my experiences. It's comforting.

So are you Jewish? Or do you just believe in the OT and what not?
The truth is what I'm after. I say Judaism has a somewhat solid foundation because there really isn't a beginning for it. The stories go all the way back to the first man and woman. All the other religions I know of, a pretty accurate date can be given for its arrival. So if anyone's God could tell the true story, it would most likely be yours. I'm in the process of learning everything I can about the history of your God because I was Christian, but I don't think many Christians know your story and without your story (our OT and your beliefs) we cannot know ours because that's what it is founded after. That's what I have been thinking about lately.

[skunkworks]

The truth is what I'm after. I say Judaism has a somewhat solid foundation because there really isn't a beginning for it. The stories go all the way back to the first man and woman. All the other religions I know of, a pretty accurate date can be given for its arrival. So if anyone's God could tell the true story, it would most likely be yours. I'm in the process of learning everything I can about the history of your God because I was Christian, but I don't think many Christians know your story and without your story (our OT and your beliefs) we cannot know ours because that's what it is founded after. That's what I have been thinking about lately.

Interesting. Judaism encourages questions and skepticism, so you're on the right path. I've been trying to read up on the New Testament and Quran as well, but I haven't had much time. I'm not a devout Jew, but I do believe in God. The OT may seem fantastical, but I think a lot of the later stuff happened, that is the prophets of Israel and such. I simply don't have the discipline to follow all of the Torah. It's quite the task. :S

I follow some of the mitzvot like not eating pig, and growing your hair out.

[CarolinaB]

Because to me He represents the kindness in people, God is in the good actions. It may sounds cheesy, but that's what I believe.

[SuperStylin]

Ignorance is blizz :amuse

Very good question.
I dont even know how anyone can answer that question, I mean... how the hell can u belive in something that dosnt exist?
He dosnt exist, until proven wrong. - "If God exist, then he sure is an evil foe" - Ramano
Actually they are always given the benefit of doubt. innocent until proven guilty, exists, until proven otherwise.
Your pluralism, poor grammar, arguments, quotes, will do little or nothing to sway their views.

[fukush]

Are u even allowed to watch naruto? I mean its not very religious!
Maybe u can be "halfchristian" and still go to heaven.

[Chamcham Trigger]

When you say god do you mean "god", or "God".

[furious styles]

When you say god do you mean "god", or "God".

good point, cham. (cham cham cham cham cham cham)

anyway, i don't beleive in god, per sé, so i will butt out of this thread.

[ANBU87]

Are u even allowed to watch naruto? I mean its not very religious!
Maybe u can be "halfchristian" and still go to heaven. O_o? I'm christian and I've seen Elfen Lied. There's nothing wrong with watching anime. there's a bunch of christians who watch anime. so ya, we're allowed to watch naruto. and its all or nothing so no half christianyness. plus you can't really be half.

[rimpelcut]

I guess I don't have my thoughts down in order, so some of my ideas may seem rambled and uncomplete, but here they are:

It's comforting to think that there is a set goal out there and that everyone isn't just philosophizing and making up their own ideas. I like the real. If something isn't real, it's a disappointment to me, like a really great movie. If the movie is based off of a real-life experience, there's more meaning to it than if someone just made it up. I realize that could go either way with believing in a god, for we don't know for sure if it exists or not, so:

I'm a story kind of person. I like to have a beginning and I like to have an end, a closure. Everything has a story, every person has a story, the universe has a story. I want to know these stories. Some can be told, other's cannot. If there is a God, then those stories can be shared. If there is no God, every story ever written, ever believed in, ever lived, will all be lost one day and the world loses meaning for me without stories. If nothing is real, if everything is new all the time, something important is lost. And what is lost can never be gained back in full..
Now let us say that the story of god is a story. this would not be real.
if the story of god is the story of our reality, why not go find the answers in reality? science for instance, or just logic of the way of everything.
The reason why you find comfort in believs is because you need a answer, it is the nature of our minds. You can get answers by belief, but when it comes down to making things work your beliefs could be proven to be false. Also eventually you may find out more about the subject of the question you could not aswer and start doubting your beliefs.
And also, it's comforting to think that even when I'm by myself, I'm not alone. That there is something watching my back, something that cares, something that can share my experiences. It's comforting.

Why do you need to share your experiences, have someone watching your back, be with someone?


The truth is what I'm after. I say Judaism has a somewhat solid foundation because there really isn't a beginning for it. The stories go all the way back to the first man and woman. All the other religions I know of, a pretty accurate date can be given for its arrival. So if anyone's God could tell the true story, it would most likely be yours. I'm in the process of learning everything I can about the history of your God because I was Christian, but I don't think many Christians know your story and without your story (our OT and your beliefs) we cannot know ours because that's what it is founded after. That's what I have been thinking about lately.
Once you find out the truth through these religions you still need to research these truths in reality. Once you start doing this you will get more questions. Now except that god exist and some of the commandments, there are different stories when it comes to explaining different questions. Now when there is a question people haven't thought of yet and they seek an aswer. what would god want us to do? they will research with sience or trial/error to find out the truth, or what works and then theorize how it fits in the story of there religion. why make it difficult for people to understand? do they need to learn the whole religion first before understanding the truths, what it is meant for, of the storys?
maybe to stabilize the order in a state by unifying the thought of conduct of people with norms and values with religion.

[rimpelcut]

Ignorance is blizz :amuse

and it leads to death eventually

Very good question.
I dont even know how anyone can answer that question, I mean... how the hell can u belive in something that dosnt exist?

people start believing because they want answers to problems, tame their emotions(comfort) or want a interesting existence(often these people don't do new things) or want join a community(are bored-just like previous). In general people start believing when they start beeing/feeling unhappy because of whatever(maybe because of a fact).
First you have a problem then you get emotions when you can't solve the problem and are "stuck" the emotion starts when you get impatient or when the need rises. Often the answer to the question means you need to find out more facts which you simply don't know now. That is why people when trying to think it through often start thinking to far, to complicated, in every direction. obviously not succeeding they start just accepting something, be it "it's my fault" or other bullshit because of feelings. Anyway the older you get the more twisted and inaccurate you get. that is why people go to psychologist and seem weird to other people. There actions are irrational.

you can't believe without logic so it is possible to believe in something that doesn't exist. But for every question to fit together in one and other with logic would mean that you end up with the facts. And you would come to the conclusion that god exists outside our world and created us and the world like how it is and works. So you can believe with logic just like scientists believe in theories but the more you try to understand the more facts are needed and this changes theories.

[rimpelcut]

Because to me He represents the kindness in people, God is in the good actions. It may sounds cheesy, but that's what I believe.

but aren't the good actions, the actions that give positive results because the factors of our reality only allow it that way? Helping others is helpfull nothing else.

[rimpelcut]

When you say god do you mean "god", or "God".

whatever you like.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

Now let us say that the story of god is a story. this would not be real.
if the story of god is the story of our reality, why not go find the answers in reality? science for instance, or just logic of the way of everything.
The reason why you find comfort in believs is because you need a answer, it is the nature of our minds. You can get answers by belief, but when it comes down to making things work your beliefs could be proven to be false. Also eventually you may find out more about the subject of the question you could not aswer and start doubting your beliefs.
I was thinking more today. The truth that I am looking for among the religions isn't exactly about the Truth of God, but rather the truth that the religions originate from. If there is no good beginning, then there cannot be a good middle or end because all based on falsehood. Good things can come out of them of course, but it in itself is wrong.

The story about God doesn't necessarily have to end up being true for there to be truth found in it. It's where and why the story originated that is key. It's important to me to have a beginning. Science is good for that in explaining things about the universe, but as far as I can tell, it can't tell me everything in my lifetime. So if there is a God, it's worth checking out about. If not or I can't find that answer, my search wasn't in vain because of all the truths that I did pick up along the way.

There's a lot of truths that the world contains. There are a lot of stories that are like puzzles and for me, they have to figured out otherwise there is no closure. You're right when you say that I need an answer. But I am content on not finding the answer, if there is nothing else left to lead me to it. Then it is lost forever, to me at least. Someone might know.

Why do you need to share your experiences, have someone watching your back, be with someone?
We are social creatures, we need others or our minds slowly die away and we go mad... My experiences are what I am. If people know some of my experiences, then they know a little bit about me. If experiences aren't shared, valuable information is lost. That can be of people or other important stuff that is valuable to know, like history and the truth behind it.

It would be nice to have something watching my back. ...oh dear, this only sprouts from not having any close friends and bad memories from hs...oh my. I understand now. Thank you loco.

[Kateryu]

Hhhmmm... I find this most interesting.

I believe, Ioco, that you said, "people start believing because they want answers to problems, tame their emotions(comfort) or want a interesting existence(often these people don't do new things) or want join a community(are bored-just like previous). In general people start believing when they start beeing/feeling unhappy because of whatever(maybe because of a fact)."

Am I correct in understanding that you believe belief and religion arises from emotions?

[kunshu]

i'm a muslim and i have a good reason to believe in the islam

allot of things science and inventition that people just found out know was already written in the koran

anyways intresting thread

*goes to read entire thread*

[fukush]

i'm a muslim and i have a good reason to believe in the islam

allot of things science and inventition that people just found out know was already written in the koran

anyways intresting thread

*goes to read entire thread*

Islam... not even gonna discuss that religon, I dont even respect it.

Btw, isnt one of the last thing that islam predict, is that all RELIGIONS will come to an end?

[Aldredian_Sahn]

Islam... not even gonna discuss that religon, I dont even respect it.
I apologize if I'm jumping to conclusion, but it's probably because you don't understand it except what you've heard from other people and the media.

Btw, isnt one of the last thing that islam predict, is that all RELIGIONS will come to an end?
Christianity states the same thing. It's in the last days that this world will come to an end and everyone will recognize the one and only God.

[kunshu]

Islam... not even gonna discuss that religon, I dont even respect it.


please give reasons why you have nor respect of this religon

perhaps you have a wrong image of the media

tell me so i can explain the believe itself

Btw, isnt one of the last thing that islam predict, is that all RELIGIONS will come to an end?

no it predicts there will be a time that all religions will wage war with eachother

[rimpelcut]

Hhhmmm... I find this most interesting.

I believe, Ioco, that you said, "people start believing because they want answers to problems, tame their emotions(comfort) or want a interesting existence(often these people don't do new things) or want join a community(are bored-just like previous). In general people start believing when they start beeing/feeling unhappy because of whatever(maybe because of a fact)."

Am I correct in understanding that you believe belief and religion arises from emotions?

no, what I believe is that belief in itself comes from not solving a problem or "getting stuck". You have 2 choices- belief or understand. Now I find it is better to let the problem rest and not making false claims. People who can't let the problem rest or do nothing about it but still care get emotions. When a fighter assumes he has lost because that man is big and scary, he wil shit his pants and freeze up. He gets fear because he wants to solve the problem but has defined for himself that there is no way out. A fighter that Thinks will see solutions and won't have fear. Now one might think why someone is so stupid that he cannot realize that he still has options. Well the person often already has certain beliefs in his mind that are mostly not true that inhibit him from doing any thinking at all. He might think"I can't punch him cuz I suck at gym" but he never honestly tried at gym because he was more concerned about not beeing a nurd or brake his wrist or dreaming about beeing a ninja(I think there was a film about that with chuck norris). The believes cloud the truth and at that point all the emotions and beliefs take his concentration of the real world.
Now imagine someone believing in god to give meaning to his life. often certain thought and beliefs of the world come first before people get the question what is the meaning of my live, what do I do in this world in the future, how can I define In one simple feeling, in one moment of truth what the secrets are of the world, of life?
sounds familiar? well I had those types of moments when I was nervious and miserable all the time because everything sucked my history sucked, I sucked and because of the memory of all those things I had not made right I got those feelings in one big ball of "confused,lost".

[rimpelcut]

But I am content on not finding the answer, if there is nothing else left to lead me to it. Then it is lost forever, to me at least. Someone might know.

I am glad you don't give up. What do you imagine to find in the beginning of the religions, how they saw god through ancient secrets? or something else.
just to let you know I'm not beeing sarcastic or whatever, the thought just accurded in my mind because i am asking so many questions.:S


We are social creatures, we need others or our minds slowly die away and we go mad... My experiences are what I am. If people know some of my experiences, then they know a little bit about me. If experiences aren't shared, valuable information is lost. That can be of people or other important stuff that is valuable to know, like history and the truth behind it.

It would be nice to have something watching my back. ...oh dear, this only sprouts from not having any close friends and bad memories from hs...oh my. I understand now. Thank you loco.

Well I assume you meant that we need to interact with people to get our thoughts strait/ solve problems. I believe we are social because we need food water shelter and action in our lives. action may be what animals do all day, hobbies, but when you get experienced with hobbies they become less interesting. The uncertain things are the real interesting things. Humans. We like to play and joke around.
Yes we need to communicate to learn and teach. but information is truly lost when it is not used by people because they are the ones that pass it on.

That sucks man you got to deal with those problems, just go loco like I did.

[rimpelcut]

i'm a muslim and i have a good reason to believe in the islam

allot of things science and inventition that people just found out know was already written in the koran

anyways intresting thread

*goes to read entire thread*

Religion has good things, allot of the rules set out for people are -good for your health -good for the environment -is good etiquette etc.
could you tell me some of those things(science)? it fascinates me :)

The one thing I find so wrong about islam is that no other religion may exist. Like mohammed had to kill everyone who is not on his side. How all the arabic should unite I found a good concept. maybe violence seemed the right choice.
well I don't now how to interpate these things cuz i don't know the whole religion and history of religion and the history of the politics and the way of life in those regions and etc.

[SuperStylin]

i'm a muslim and i have a good reason to believe in the islam

allot of things science and inventition that people just found out know was already written in the koran

anyways intresting thread

*goes to read entire thread*
do you even read the muslim threads.....

sorry but i find much of those beliefs have weak arguments in those threads (which get torn apart by others), perhaps b/c this is a naruto fan forum, but my opinion

[skunkworks]

Islam is an interesting religion. Abraham and Isaac are considered prophets if I'm not mistaken. Ishmael, Abraham's other son, is considered the father of the Arabs.

By the way, what predictions did the Koran make that came true?

[Kateryu]

no, what I believe is that belief in itself comes from not solving a problem or "getting stuck". You have 2 choices- belief or understand. Now I find it is better to let the problem rest and not making false claims. People who can't let the problem rest or do nothing about it but still care get emotions. When a fighter assumes he has lost because that man is big and scary, he wil shit his pants and freeze up. He gets fear because he wants to solve the problem but has defined for himself that there is no way out. A fighter that Thinks will see solutions and won't have fear. Now one might think why someone is so stupid that he cannot realize that he still has options. Well the person often already has certain beliefs in his mind that are mostly not true that inhibit him from doing any thinking at all. He might think"I can't punch him cuz I suck at gym" but he never honestly tried at gym because he was more concerned about not beeing a nurd or brake his wrist or dreaming about beeing a ninja(I think there was a film about that with chuck norris). The believes cloud the truth and at that point all the emotions and beliefs take his concentration of the real world.
Now imagine someone believing in god to give meaning to his life. often certain thought and beliefs of the world come first before people get the question what is the meaning of my live, what do I do in this world in the future, how can I define In one simple feeling, in one moment of truth what the secrets are of the world, of life?
sounds familiar? well I had those types of moments when I was nervious and miserable all the time because everything sucked my history sucked, I sucked and because of the memory of all those things I had not made right I got those feelings in one big ball of "confused,lost".

Hmm... I like this thread. :smile-big So, belief in God/god comes from uncertanty and a lack of ablility to think through things? If this isn't what you mean, please clarify, as I'm about to give you my answer to the thread's main question.

I'm a Reformed Presbiterian Christian, a member of a PCA church. (Ever heard Rev. Kennedy on TV? He's PCA.) Strange as this may sound, I believe in God and His holy Son Jesus Christ not because God gives me a 'fuzzy feeling,' or because it makes me feel better about the world around me; I believe in God because of the evidence and logic surrounding Him. I rarely have the happy-go-lucky feeling that most people think comes with believing in God. In fact, being a true and faithful Christian (please note a Christian by definition of the word believes in Jesus) is very difficult. Day after day you are faced with the questions, "Where is your God? What if He's not there? Why does God let bad things happen to you and to those you love? Why is there sin?" And often, the answers you receive from the Bible aren't what you want to hear.

So why do I bother? Because otherwise the very existance of the world and everything in it cannot be. Have you ever taken the time to really, really wonder how the human body works? Have you ever really, really sat down and look at the random probability that the universe simply sprung into existance? The very air we breathe is far too complex to not have been intellegently designed.

Not only is creation and the order and existance of things explained in the Bible, but the reasons for why bad things happen are given. Sin is explained, good is explained. Why God sent His Son to die is explained, and all in terms that are reasonable and logical. Yes, there are mysteries, and yes, there is faith, but God doesn't tell you to just 'believe.' He explains His world to us in the Bible.

As for what you said about Islam being the only religion that claims there can only be one religion, that's not entirely true. True Christianity claims that there is only one truth, and that is the truth of the Bible. Christianity says that there is only one God, and only one way to heaven, and that is through His Son. Now, the Bible teaches not to wipe out every other religion; we are to love others as Christ loves His church! But it does teach that there are no other true religions. So when you say that Islam is the only religion that says there can't be other religions, you have to be careful of what exactly you mean. ^_^

I'm not to fond of Islam myself, for that reason. But no matter what you argue logically, you can't change a person's heart; only God can do that, so I still respect Muslims as people. And I do know that not all muslims are the killer type. ^_^

[aLkeMiSt]

An interesting site I found created by a former islam-follower.

www.faithfreedom.org

[fukush]

please give reasons why you have nor respect of this religon

perhaps you have a wrong image of the media

tell me so i can explain the believe itself



no it predicts there will be a time that all religions will wage war with eachother

Would be more fun if u explained why u belive in Islam.

[Kateryu]

An interesting site I found created by a former islam-follower.

www.faithfreedom.org
Hmm, very interesting. (I keep saying that, don't I?) I can't say I've ever really studied Islam, so this webpage is very insightful. It's kind of hard to read at first, because it's quite shocking. If you have a minute, you guys should check it out.

[rimpelcut]

Hmm... I like this thread. :smile-big So, belief in God/god comes from uncertanty and a lack of ablility to think through things? If this isn't what you mean, please clarify, as I'm about to give you my answer to the thread's main question.

I'm a Reformed Presbiterian Christian, a member of a PCA church. (Ever heard Rev. Kennedy on TV? He's PCA.) Strange as this may sound, I believe in God and His holy Son Jesus Christ not because God gives me a 'fuzzy feeling,' or because it makes me feel better about the world around me; I believe in God because of the evidence and logic surrounding Him. I rarely have the happy-go-lucky feeling that most people think comes with believing in God. In fact, being a true and faithful Christian (please note a Christian by definition of the word believes in Jesus) is very difficult. Day after day you are faced with the questions, "Where is your God? What if He's not there? Why does God let bad things happen to you and to those you love? Why is there sin?" And often, the answers you receive from the Bible aren't what you want to hear.

So why do I bother? Because otherwise the very existance of the world and everything in it cannot be. Have you ever taken the time to really, really wonder how the human body works? Have you ever really, really sat down and look at the random probability that the universe simply sprung into existance? The very air we breathe is far too complex to not have been intellegently designed.

Not only is creation and the order and existance of things explained in the Bible, but the reasons for why bad things happen are given. Sin is explained, good is explained. Why God sent His Son to die is explained, and all in terms that are reasonable and logical. Yes, there are mysteries, and yes, there is faith, but God doesn't tell you to just 'believe.' He explains His world to us in the Bible.

As for what you said about Islam being the only religion that claims there can only be one religion, that's not entirely true. True Christianity claims that there is only one truth, and that is the truth of the Bible. Christianity says that there is only one God, and only one way to heaven, and that is through His Son. Now, the Bible teaches not to wipe out every other religion; we are to love others as Christ loves His church! But it does teach that there are no other true religions. So when you say that Islam is the only religion that says there can't be other religions, you have to be careful of what exactly you mean. ^_^

I'm not to fond of Islam myself, for that reason. But no matter what you argue logically, you can't change a person's heart; only God can do that, so I still respect Muslims as people. And I do know that not all muslims are the killer type. ^_^

yes, you are correct, ofcourse belief in god mostly comes from not beeing able to give an answer to the questions about human body, the universe, what you said.
I for one now the answers through science facts and my own logic. I have come across allot of scientist books that have the same perspective.
Your answer is there is a god that created the universe in short, right? Well that could very well be. We could be a science experiment for that matter. Or there is simply no creator. Think of this. How can something come from nothing? it can't and thus there is only existence because we exist. Even if there is a god, how did he came to be from nothing?
When you talk about how sin and good is explained by the bible you have a theory. In this theory every question you ask about how this came to be, why is someone crazy, what is consciousness, what is memory, what are dreams, you will get the answer god made it so. Yes it exists and everything that exist is because of god but how can you explain the workings of those things? how can you explain the connection between good, evil, consciousness, beeing crazy and that coincidentally everything exist in the brain? You will find the connections between those things and then you will say, god made it like that. So just saying it exists because of god isn't really a meaningfull answer, you are just saying that it exists because it was created.

Ofcourse every religion says they are the only true religion. But what I found cruel of the Islam is that In the beginning of the religion they started to kill all who opposed. In case of christianity that was not the case, in the beginning that is. So different things were written in the bible and different beliefs came about.

p.s

[kunshu]

Religion has good things, allot of the rules set out for people are -good for your health -good for the environment -is good etiquette etc.
could you tell me some of those things(science)? it fascinates me :)

The one thing I find so wrong about islam is that no other religion may exist. Like mohammed had to kill everyone who is not on his side. How all the arabic should unite I found a good concept. maybe violence seemed the right choice.
well I don't now how to interpate these things cuz i don't know the whole religion and history of religion and the history of the politics and the way of life in those regions and etc.


no that last part isn't true the problem about islam is:

people use it for poltic/terrorisme reasons because of that they make up shitty rules like that(damn those mofos!!!)

[kunshu]

Islam is an interesting religion. Abraham and Isaac are considered prophets if I'm not mistaken. Ishmael, Abraham's other son, is considered the father of the Arabs.

By the way, what predictions did the Koran make that came true?


atmosphere/DNA/magnoshpere/ galaxy ETC.

EDIT:

you shouldn't trust sites like that why since ALMOST ALL THINGS HE POSTED WHERE HADTHIS and hatdits are messages left by the friends/family of the profet and people write their messages down

but people will also write BS so that it works in a good way for them

lke most of the things that guy posted in faith of freedom website are weak hadiths and not strong ones

[Sands]

believing in god doesn't mean u have to put all faith in him or to praise him for everything nor to point your finger at him for everything
i do believe in god to a certain extent
believing he exists and using him as an excuse is different
just my ramblings....

[rimpelcut]

believing in god doesn't mean u have to put all faith in him or to praise him for everything nor to point your finger at him for everything
i do believe in god to a certain extent
believing he exists and using him as an excuse is different
just my ramblings....

so you don't believe in God, you believe in something unknown that does something which you had noticed.

[rimpelcut]

atmosphere/DNA/magnoshpere/ galaxy ETC.



did they knew a string of molecules excists that is the code for your body, or did they knew that there is something that makes the body the way it is and you carry it with it?
Could you tell me some of the beliefs they have about:
creation of humans, seasons, etc. what is written in the koran about our reality?

[rimpelcut]

no that last part isn't true the problem about islam is:

people use it for poltic/terrorisme reasons because of that they make up shitty rules like that(damn those mofos!!!)

I have heard the story of the profet Mohammed and the start of islam on tv. Why wasn't the last part true?

[Rook]

Why do I believe in the God? Good question.

I was raised in a Christian home, went to Christian schools, and had gone to the same church my entire life. Some others here may sympathize with me on this one. However, no matter how much I am taught about Christianity, there comes a time in every Christian's life where he must test his own faith. I was no different.

I questioned why I believe in God and should I continue believing in God. I could say I felt Him, but others would say it's just me being needy. I could say I believe in this for so-and-so reason because of what happened to this person, but that may be just coincidence. But then the reality of God and the supernatural hit me. The reality wasn't just feelings or emotions, but what people went through in dealing with the supernatural. Others may deny the supernatural, but it exists all right.

I can recall several sermons of pastors who encountered the demon-possessed, and were able to save people by calling on Jesus name and making the demon leave. Several of my friends in high school had similar experiences when they all together felt this evil presence on their bus coming back from a missions trip to Mexico. After group prayer, the presence left. One of my classmates in college told me a story of how he literally saw a demon come out of a girl and tried to attack him. Only after a voice shouted out "Stop", did the demon recede. The stories are endless.

This is but one of the reasons why I believe in God. You can deny personal emotions and feelings, but when the reality of it all hit me, I find I have no choice but to believe. There are also a number of theological and personal reasons, but I won't go into them at this time.

[kunshu]

did they knew a string of molecules excists that is the code for your body, or did they knew that there is something that makes the body the way it is and you carry it with it?
Could you tell me some of the beliefs they have about:
creation of humans, seasons, etc. what is written in the koran about our reality?




the people didn't knew what that part in the koran ment

like the this soera:


and we made the sky a protectin roof safetly secured and alerted.but still they don't head her signs(qoer'aan 21:32)(sorry if this translationis a litttle hard to understand since its hard to translate arabic>hollands>english)

this soera is obviusly talking about the atmosfeer witch protects us against metoirs and the heat from the sun

but 1400 years ago they didn't know what this 'protecting roof' meant so they couldn't know what the atmosfeer was

there is a lot of stuff like that in the koran so thats the reason i believe in islam

i hate it when people sprout bullskit like:

MEN ARE SPERIORS TO WIMAN MUDHAHHA(whatever in the koran woman have more rights than men)

I BLUW MIZELF AUP IIN AMERIKA AND THIN I GU TO HAVEN MUDHAHHAH(rightttttttttttttt killing yourself is strictly forbidden in the oran unless you do it to kill soldiers/save your friend bombing himself is only understandble if he blows himself up in the middle of a troop of soldiers otherwise he is killing innocents and they will go to heaven wile he burns in hell)


ARABASASD ARE STEUPIT MUDHAHAHAHAH(errrr seriously they are not

you are stupid if you believe that crap almost everything we have was invented by arabs(math,binocoulers,clocks ETC)

[kunshu]

I have heard the story of the profet Mohammed and the start of islam on tv. Why wasn't the last part true?


yes you saw it on TV i saw on tva child with 10 heads :eyeroll

do you have a relieable source?


what did they say about islam?


was it on a science channel?

[neko-sennin]

In my case, a more accurate way of putting it would be to say that I let God be. If such an entity exists, it will do so whether I believe in it or not.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg

[Sakura]

i believe in God because my parents are both christian and they teach me to power of God. to believe in a religion and knowing that there is something you can have faith in is an honor and it makes you feel like therez guidance in your life

[Kateryu]

yes, you are correct, ofcourse belief in god mostly comes from not beeing able to give an answer to the questions about human body, the universe, what you said.
I for one now the answers through science facts and my own logic. I have come across allot of scientist books that have the same perspective.
Your answer is there is a god that created the universe in short, right? Well that could very well be. We could be a science experiment for that matter. Or there is simply no creator. Think of this. How can something come from nothing? it can't and thus there is only existence because we exist. Even if there is a god, how did he came to be from nothing?
When you talk about how sin and good is explained by the bible you have a theory. In this theory every question you ask about how this came to be, why is someone crazy, what is consciousness, what is memory, what are dreams, you will get the answer god made it so. Yes it exists and everything that exist is because of god but how can you explain the workings of those things? how can you explain the connection between good, evil, consciousness, beeing crazy and that coincidentally everything exist in the brain? You will find the connections between those things and then you will say, god made it like that. So just saying it exists because of god isn't really a meaningfull answer, you are just saying that it exists because it was created.

Ofcourse every religion says they are the only true religion. But what I found cruel of the Islam is that In the beginning of the religion they started to kill all who opposed. In case of christianity that was not the case, in the beginning that is. So different things were written in the bible and different beliefs came about.

p.s

*smiles* Something come from nothing? That's just the thing, isn't it?

The Bible states that God is above time and mass: He has always existed, and so he didn't come from nothing; He is selfsustaining. I know it's a lot to rap your brain around, but try to bare with me.

As you said, everything must come from something, right? So if everything didn't come from God, where did it come from? The question is circular, meaning, ultimately, there has to be a something beyond time and space. Whatever you may believe, whether it be that the universe has always exsisted or that it was created by God who has always exsisted, at some point, there has to be something that was before, and that something has to be capable of exsisting without being created or started. Otherwise, you run in a neverending circle. What came before that, what came before that, what came before that...

One of the Bible's answers to those unanswerable questions: God has always exsisted; it was He who created time and space. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. An answer such as this, in the sense that there must be an ultimate (even if you say it isn't God), is an absolute and logical necessity; if you can come up with another answer, I'd love to hear it.

As for the 'theory,' I'd say you have to read the Bible to know exactly what I mean (please don't take this as a I-just-can't-explain-it excuse). The Bible does explain good and evil, and I suppose you could just round it and say 'God just made it that way.' But God doesn't want people to be ignorent; He doesn't just say that you have to smile and take the world as we know it.

I'm sure you've heard some, if not all of this, at some point in your life. God created man in His own image (Genesis 1:27). This is the reason why the human mind is so complex; we are each a mirror image of God. People are creative, intellegent, and have consciousness because God has these things. If you read the account of the rest of creation, you'll see that God doesn't give these atrabutes to the animals.

Sin began in the heart of Satan, sometime after creation. Satan then tempted Eve, who gave to Adom, who ate of the forbidden fruit, and therefore condemed the rest of mankind to death (Genesis 3). It is this sin that causes the evil in the human brain. We are born in sin (a verse in Psalms- I can't find the refrence! :crying But I garentee you, it's there!), and therefore everything we do is poluted with sin. Even our good isn't really good (Romans 3:10,11). So how can we even know what is good, if we aren't good at all? God has written His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15). This is our conscious, what tells us what is good and evil.

You also mentioned crazy people; already mentioned were those who are demon possesed. Some people really are possesed, and they can't control what they do. We claim they have all sorts of medical problems, and we give them drugs for it, or stick them in a home, but that won't solve their problems (I really feel bad for those people- they can't help it, and they're not crazy!). There are other cases, however, where God gives them over to their sin and evil side (Romans 1:24). He does this to people usually because God had reveiled Himself to them in some way or another, and they bluntly reject Him, aand claim they are wiser than God (Romans 1:18-23- can you tell I like Romans? ^_^)

So why did God do all of this? Well, the children's catacism says it the most bluntly: "For His own glory." This is one of those points where faith comes in. God keeps some things a mystery to us (Proverbs 25:2), and one of those things is why exactly He made this world, and allowed sin. I will say this though, if you study the Bible, and the coming of Jesus Christ, you'll be able to see God's glory in it, clear as a cloudless fall day. ^_^

BTW, if you're wondering what faith is exaclty, it's the substance of things hoped for, the evidance of things unseen.

So, in the end, I never said it exsists simply because it was created, or that God exsists because things were created. It's a lot more complicated than that. ^_^ Sorry this post was so long, and I'm sure it sounds like I'm preaching...

Oh, and you go, Rook! ^_^

[rimpelcut]

yes you saw it on TV i saw on tva child with 10 heads :eyeroll

do you have a relieable source?


what did they say about islam?


was it on a science channel?

Well kunshi about the atmosphere, you are making my point when you said that, my point:
did they knew a string of molecules excists that is the code for your body, or did they knew that there is something that makes the body the way it is and you carry it with it?
Anyway, yeah they have good things in them like all religions. The problem with religion is that you can understand it in different ways and make your own conclusions. Also there is no proof yet for creation theories and when it comes to psychology of men like good, eveil, jealousy the religions don't explain it good, lets say very bad. except for buddism I find.
Ik heb het op een programma gezien over de slachtfeest op ned2 waar ze gewoon de traditionele verhaal vertelden.
Anyway Like I said, the religion explains the right ways of conduct but they don't explain in what situation you should use it. It is like the law you know, people find loopholes to make them right. I would find religion in that way, not efficient because how do you know if you understand exactly what is meant by the holy books? Rather find out for yourself the truths of the book in the real world than trying to figure out the real world by a holy book.
They said about islam that there was mohammed and he had gotten word by allah that his religion is the right one and that he has to unite the arabs or something and then mohammed went on to conquer the lands that opposed. And I forgot the part about the suikerfeest. It was with ishmael and the father had to kill him or something for god and then god said ok you believe in me so you can kill the sheep instead. and then he gave sheap to all the other people.

[rimpelcut]

Why do I believe in the God? Good question.

I was raised in a Christian home, went to Christian schools, and had gone to the same church my entire life. Some others here may sympathize with me on this one. However, no matter how much I am taught about Christianity, there comes a time in every Christian's life where he must test his own faith. I was no different.

I questioned why I believe in God and should I continue believing in God. I could say I felt Him, but others would say it's just me being needy. I could say I believe in this for so-and-so reason because of what happened to this person, but that may be just coincidence. But then the reality of God and the supernatural hit me. The reality wasn't just feelings or emotions, but what people went through in dealing with the supernatural. Others may deny the supernatural, but it exists all right.

I can recall several sermons of pastors who encountered the demon-possessed, and were able to save people by calling on Jesus name and making the demon leave. Several of my friends in high school had similar experiences when they all together felt this evil presence on their bus coming back from a missions trip to Mexico. After group prayer, the presence left. One of my classmates in college told me a story of how he literally saw a demon come out of a girl and tried to attack him. Only after a voice shouted out "Stop", did the demon recede. The stories are endless.

This is but one of the reasons why I believe in God. You can deny personal emotions and feelings, but when the reality of it all hit me, I find I have no choice but to believe. There are also a number of theological and personal reasons, but I won't go into them at this time.

The reality can only hit you if you had seen god or understood by the thiings you understand about god already through religion. you realized some part of reality how things on the world work and then made the connection to the religion because it fills the remaining gap. You can "realize" things when it makes sense but again this doesn't mean it is so. You can find logic in everything but the more facts you find the less you become confident that your realization was complete, so you make a new realization. the fact that it all made sense to you doesn't mean anything, you haven't found out that the bible is true, you only made it sensible.
Those "stories", as the definition already implies, doesn't mean anything. I know for a fact that if you say that this water is magic water and it will make you healthy that it will work, through psychology> People create stress and pain and depression consciously but not mindfully. They contract muscles, create tension, get less blood, less of everything. Because they don't understand where the pain and stress come from(they do it themselfs) they become ignorant, they eat improperly, they think they want something because of emotions but those emotions are made through stress and relief. Made through belief. There are allot of different causes and effects. Anyway when they drink magic water they belief there bad feelings will go away, so it goes away, then they belief it worked and stay feeling better, then the blood starts flowing, they get an appitite, there body balances itself again, get healthy etc. Now the same can be said about people that were ridden of demons.

[rimpelcut]

In my case, a more accurate way of putting it would be to say that I let God be. If such an entity exists, it will do so whether I believe in it or not.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg

cool.
I see god as the universe that lifes since I find destiny and luck to be relative to the movement of the universe.:)

[rimpelcut]

i believe in God because my parents are both christian and they teach me to power of God. to believe in a religion and knowing that there is something you can have faith in is an honor and it makes you feel like therez guidance in your life

:huh why do you call it an honor? crazy people find it an honor that they can become crazy through belief?
the only guidance you get is what is written in the bible. Maybe I need guidance to where my asshole is located, so I can whipe it clean?
i'm sorry for beeing harsh to get my point across.:wink

[rimpelcut]

*smiles* Something come from nothing? That's just the thing, isn't it?

The Bible states that God is above time and mass: He has always existed, and so he didn't come from nothing; He is selfsustaining. I know it's a lot to rap your brain around, but try to bare with me.

As you said, everything must come from something, right? So if everything didn't come from God, where did it come from? The question is circular, meaning, ultimately, there has to be a something beyond time and space. Whatever you may believe, whether it be that the universe has always exsisted or that it was created by God who has always exsisted, at some point, there has to be something that was before, and that something has to be capable of exsisting without being created or started. Otherwise, you run in a neverending circle. What came before that, what came before that, what came before that...

One of the Bible's answers to those unanswerable questions: God has always exsisted; it was He who created time and space. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. An answer such as this, in the sense that there must be an ultimate (even if you say it isn't God), is an absolute and logical necessity; if you can come up with another answer, I'd love to hear it.

As for the 'theory,' I'd say you have to read the Bible to know exactly what I mean (please don't take this as a I-just-can't-explain-it excuse). The Bible does explain good and evil, and I suppose you could just round it and say 'God just made it that way.' But God doesn't want people to be ignorent; He doesn't just say that you have to smile and take the world as we know it.

I'm sure you've heard some, if not all of this, at some point in your life. God created man in His own image (Genesis 1:27). This is the reason why the human mind is so complex; we are each a mirror image of God. People are creative, intellegent, and have consciousness because God has these things. If you read the account of the rest of creation, you'll see that God doesn't give these atrabutes to the animals.

Sin began in the heart of Satan, sometime after creation. Satan then tempted Eve, who gave to Adom, who ate of the forbidden fruit, and therefore condemed the rest of mankind to death (Genesis 3). It is this sin that causes the evil in the human brain. We are born in sin (a verse in Psalms- I can't find the refrence! :crying But I garentee you, it's there!), and therefore everything we do is poluted with sin. Even our good isn't really good (Romans 3:10,11). So how can we even know what is good, if we aren't good at all? God has written His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15). This is our conscious, what tells us what is good and evil.

You also mentioned crazy people; already mentioned were those who are demon possesed. Some people really are possesed, and they can't control what they do. We claim they have all sorts of medical problems, and we give them drugs for it, or stick them in a home, but that won't solve their problems (I really feel bad for those people- they can't help it, and they're not crazy!). There are other cases, however, where God gives them over to their sin and evil side (Romans 1:24). He does this to people usually because God had reveiled Himself to them in some way or another, and they bluntly reject Him, aand claim they are wiser than God (Romans 1:18-23- can you tell I like Romans? ^_^)

So why did God do all of this? Well, the children's catacism says it the most bluntly: "For His own glory." This is one of those points where faith comes in. God keeps some things a mystery to us (Proverbs 25:2), and one of those things is why exactly He made this world, and allowed sin. I will say this though, if you study the Bible, and the coming of Jesus Christ, you'll be able to see God's glory in it, clear as a cloudless fall day. ^_^

BTW, if you're wondering what faith is exaclty, it's the substance of things hoped for, the evidance of things unseen.

So, in the end, I never said it exsists simply because it was created, or that God exsists because things were created. It's a lot more complicated than that. ^_^ Sorry this post was so long, and I'm sure it sounds like I'm preaching...

Oh, and you go, Rook! ^_^

WAHAHHAHAAA, man you said something funny. ok here is a question and try to not get confused. how was god created? now you will say he is omnipotent but that doesn't answer it. he created time and space, that doesn't answer it. If something can't come from nothing there is only something and that does not mean there has to be ,in the something frame, someone that created tim and space. space could be the beginning and actually time doesn't exist.
now there could be someone that created the universe or maybe our universe will implode through black holes and become another universe. maybe there exist a chaos universe where 2 things exist and don't exist at the same time and infinatly:S .
Ok animals are not humans that is right. But then it gets confusing, not the story, it is very buitiful but in the end you say:
- we are by nature sinners, but we can know the good through our consciousness. Now if you mean that man has the tendancy to do evil things but through becoming conscious of the facts of the situations he will understand what is good, then you said exactly what I meant.
if you meant it like you have written it down then it is contradicting. because you can see with your conscious what is good from the start and do good from the start. Also I like to point out that consciousness isn't the part of the brain that does the thinking and understanding.
Now I don't said that crazy people are non-human, they are just crazy. I call all people that are not good crazy because by my understanding they are basing there actions not on what is right and the best based on the facts of the world but they base there actions on beliefs from there past and believe (no doubt) they are right.
Now you could say, crazy people do not accept the laws of reality! they reject it. Now does that sound samiliar? (reject god, glory etc)
"so why did god do all of this?" well i think you already made that clear in the beginning of man and all:S
Glory of god? you mean that god is trying to do the best thing and that is his glory? see I didn't have to read the bible.
"BTW, if you're wondering what faith is exaclty, it's the substance of things hoped for, the evidance of things unseen."

That is like making my brain cook man. you hope for something that is why you belief in it(faith) and believing is the evidence that it exists. You are right, logic says it's so. unfortunatly if you base your logic on unreal, non-factual things you will have bullshit. THe problem is that the ones that created the religion also tried to find the truth so they have used facts and filled the gap with non-facts to make it logical and thus made it for a part right making other people belief just like they did.
"So, in the end, I never said it exsists simply because it was created, or that God exsists because things were created. It's a lot more complicated than that. " well yeah it has to be. the more you know of the world the more complicated the reason is why you belief.

[Danny Lilithborne]

Wait, God created time and space?

If it were so, why have the terms been so hotly debated ever since men realized the sun was a star?

[rimpelcut]

it does not mean god did not created it.

[skunkworks]

Sin began in the heart of Satan, sometime after creation. Satan then tempted Eve, who gave to Adom, who ate of the forbidden fruit, and therefore condemed the rest of mankind to death (Genesis 3). It is this sin that causes the evil in the human brain. We are born in sin (a verse in Psalms- I can't find the refrence! :crying But I garentee you, it's there!), and therefore everything we do is poluted with sin. Even our good isn't really good (Romans 3:10,11). So how can we even know what is good, if we aren't good at all? God has written His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15). This is our conscious, what tells us what is good and evil.

The word used for Satan means adversary or accuser in Hebrew. That's all it means. Angels do not have the free-will to break apart from god.

God does punish Adam and Eve, but they always both possessed the good impulse and the evil impulse, that's why they ate the fruit. The curse is actually placed on the serpent. "And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Genesis 3:14)

Because you have done this From here [we learn] that we may not intercede in favor of one who entices people [to idolatry], for had He asked him, “Why did you do this?” he could have answered, “The words of the master and the words of the pupil-whose words do we obey?” [i.e., Adam and Eve should have obeyed God rather than the serpent!]- [from Sanh. 29a]

more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field If he was cursed more than the cattle [whose gestation period is long], he was surely cursed more than the beasts [whose gestation period is comparatively shorter]. Our Rabbis established this midrash in Tractate Bechoroth (8a) to teach that the gestation period of a serpent is seven years.

[Danny Lilithborne]

it does not mean god did not created it.

God did not create space and time, we did to better understand the universe.

[*Basma*]

I am a muslim and i believe in god... why? because like kunshu mentioned ealiar The Quran is a source of inspiration and true knowledge, in it i find everything i need to prove to me that god exsits :tem . Facts about scientific subjects and the news delivered to us about the past and future, facts that no one could have known at the time of the Quran's revelation, are announced in its verses. It is impossible for this information, to have been known with the level of knowledge and technology available in 7th century Arabia. for example:

Could anyone in 7th century in Arabia have known that our atmosphere is made up of seven layers?

Could anyone in 7th century in Arabia have known in detail the various stages of development from which an embryo grows into a baby and then enters the world from inside his mother?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Quran puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the fact that each individual's fingertips are absolutely unique, when we have only discovered this fact recently, using modern technology and modern scientific equipment?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the role of one of Pharaoh's most prominent aids, Haman, when the details of hieroglyphic translation were only discovered two centuries ago?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the word "Pharaoh" was only used from the 14th century B.C. and not before, as the Old Testament erroneously claims?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about Ubar and Iram's Pillars, which were only discovered in recent decades via the use of NASA satellite photographs?

So yes i am a firm believer in god and thats why i choose to believe... :smile-big

[kunshu]

Well kunshi about the atmosphere, you are making my point when you said that, my point:
did they knew a string of molecules excists that is the code for your body, or did they knew that there is something that makes the body the way it is and you carry it with it?
Anyway, yeah they have good things in them like all religions. The problem with religion is that you can understand it in different ways and make your own conclusions. Also there is no proof yet for creation theories and when it comes to psychology of men like good, eveil, jealousy the religions don't explain it good, lets say very bad. except for buddism I find.
Ik heb het op een programma gezien over de slachtfeest op ned2 waar ze gewoon de traditionele verhaal vertelden.
Anyway Like I said, the religion explains the right ways of conduct but they don't explain in what situation you should use it. It is like the law you know, people find loopholes to make them right. I would find religion in that way, not efficient because how do you know if you understand exactly what is meant by the holy books? Rather find out for yourself the truths of the book in the real world than trying to figure out the real world by a holy book.
They said about islam that there was mohammed and he had gotten word by allah that his religion is the right one and that he has to unite the arabs or something and then mohammed went on to conquer the lands that opposed. And I forgot the part about the suikerfeest. It was with ishmael and the father had to kill him or something for god and then god said ok you believe in me so you can kill the sheep instead. and then he gave sheap to all the other people.


LOL there is mixed hollands between you're posts

anyways

the arabs didn't knew a shit about DNA also they didn't know anything about the atmosphere(noone did the atmosphere/DNA/magnoshpere was found out
1300 years later)but the koran said things about DNA and the atmoshphere, the way water flows.how rain falls ETC.

mohamhed was a normal guy that lived in mekka without education(he oculdn't write/read/math ETC)

then one day allah spoke to the angel gamriel telling him about the islam then the angel gabriel kept giving mohamehd soera's and mohamed gave them to the people

then when gabriel gave mohamehd all soera's then mohamed made a book he called it a koran

but unfortunatly

the people in mekka were all jewesh/crisht/no believers ETC.

and they didn't believe mohamed a few people believed him

thats why mohamed was exiled he went to the city medina and he showed the koran to the people there

the people of medina believed mohamed and they gave him a place to stay

after a few years mohamed was the leader of medina

but because mohamed was leader now

gabriel told him that he must spread the believe of islam

and so he did he sended riders to mekka, to china,to europe the believe spreaded out everywhere


but not everyone accepted the islam and so many cities in arabia waged war with mohamed mohamed won the war and was leader of mekka then he went on with spreading the believe/advising people about islam

(sometimes fighting in a jihad)

thats the story of mohamed

[Kateryu]

WAHAHHAHAAA, man you said something funny. ok here is a question and try to not get confused. how was god created? now you will say he is omnipotent but that doesn't answer it. he created time and space, that doesn't answer it. If something can't come from nothing there is only something and that does not mean there has to be ,in the something frame, someone that created tim and space. space could be the beginning and actually time doesn't exist.
now there could be someone that created the universe or maybe our universe will implode through black holes and become another universe. maybe there exist a chaos universe where 2 things exist and don't exist at the same time and infinatly:S .
Ok animals are not humans that is right. But then it gets confusing, not the story, it is very buitiful but in the end you say:
- we are by nature sinners, but we can know the good through our consciousness. Now if you mean that man has the tendancy to do evil things but through becoming conscious of the facts of the situations he will understand what is good, then you said exactly what I meant.
if you meant it like you have written it down then it is contradicting. because you can see with your conscious what is good from the start and do good from the start. Also I like to point out that consciousness isn't the part of the brain that does the thinking and understanding.
Now I don't said that crazy people are non-human, they are just crazy. I call all people that are not good crazy because by my understanding they are basing there actions not on what is right and the best based on the facts of the world but they base there actions on beliefs from there past and believe (no doubt) they are right.
Now you could say, crazy people do not accept the laws of reality! they reject it. Now does that sound samiliar? (reject god, glory etc)
"so why did god do all of this?" well i think you already made that clear in the beginning of man and all:S
Glory of god? you mean that god is trying to do the best thing and that is his glory? see I didn't have to read the bible.
"BTW, if you're wondering what faith is exaclty, it's the substance of things hoped for, the evidance of things unseen."

That is like making my brain cook man. you hope for something that is why you belief in it(faith) and believing is the evidence that it exists. You are right, logic says it's so. unfortunatly if you base your logic on unreal, non-factual things you will have bullshit. THe problem is that the ones that created the religion also tried to find the truth so they have used facts and filled the gap with non-facts to make it logical and thus made it for a part right making other people belief just like they did.
"So, in the end, I never said it exsists simply because it was created, or that God exsists because things were created. It's a lot more complicated than that. " well yeah it has to be. the more you know of the world the more complicated the reason is why you belief.

Wow, these posts are getting long! :amuse Not that I'm any less guilty of that...

Ok, lets see if we can get on the same page; I think we must be missing each other at some point.

Simple question: How was God created? That's fair enough. My anwser, as you've guessed, is that He wasn't created. You see, what I was trying to explain is, something had to be not created. Take your time and think about that for just a moment, so that what I say next might not get too confusing. ^_^ Whether it be space or God, there had to be a something that started all somethings; otherwise, you will continuously go back to what came before, to what created what. Does that make sense? (Kinda hard to explain over the internet!) I know it's confusing, but logically, there has to be something or someone that has always exsisted.

As for your statement that time doesn't exsist; if your theorising, that's ok. If you think it's true, well, um, yeah... let's not get into that.

As for the consience thingy, I was using it in to different senses. Sorry I didn't make that clear! :sweatdrop The first sense was our ability to think and reason, the difference between us and mice. The second was that voice in the back of your mind that says, "Don't do that; you know it's wrong." So when I say that we have the law 'written on our hearts,' I mean we have our consience telling us what is right/wrong. Now, this may seem harsh, but it's human nature to do the wrong things. If you've ever watched young children, you'll notice something very sad and very interesting: you'll never have to teach a child to steal or hit; they do that just fine on their own. What you have to teach a child is how to share and how to say, 'I'm sorry.' So what I'm trying to say, which may be what you ment in the first place, is that people, by nature, rebel against what they know is morally right, but as they grow and learn, (hopefully) they learn to do what is right.

I hope that helps clear some things up! ^_^

And now, since you are asking us to examine what we believe, is it fair if I ask you some questions about what you believe? What is your answer to 'why do you/don't you believe in God?' When you say this:

THe problem is that the ones that created the religion also tried to find the truth so they have used facts and filled the gap with non-facts to make it logical and thus made it for a part right making other people belief just like they did.

does this mean that you believe people make up all religions? Are you saying that all religions are simply made up by people looking for answers to unanswerable questions? If you are, then you are saying that, regardless of what others may believe, you yourself are right, and no religion really holds any weight, because they are all made by flawable, desprate men. Because you started this thread as an open discussion, asking an open question, I really don't think that's what you believe. ^_^ So what do you believe, loco?

[Kateryu]

The word used for Satan means adversary or accuser in Hebrew. That's all it means. Angels do not have the free-will to break apart from god.

God does punish Adam and Eve, but they always both possessed the good impulse and the evil impulse, that's why they ate the fruit. The curse is actually placed on the serpent. "And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Genesis 3:14)

Because you have done this From here [we learn] that we may not intercede in favor of one who entices people [to idolatry], for had He asked him, “Why did you do this?” he could have answered, “The words of the master and the words of the pupil-whose words do we obey?” [i.e., Adam and Eve should have obeyed God rather than the serpent!]- [from Sanh. 29a]

more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field If he was cursed more than the cattle [whose gestation period is long], he was surely cursed more than the beasts [whose gestation period is comparatively shorter]. Our Rabbis established this midrash in Tractate Bechoroth (8a) to teach that the gestation period of a serpent is seven years.

OK, Satan is used in English as a name for the Devil, Dominator of Hell, the angel that rebelled against God. :notrust I think that that's common knowledge. As for angels not having the ablitity to rebel against God, you could ultimately say that even humans don't have the ablility to rebel against the Almighty God. God does, however, harden and soften peoples hearts, according to His will. (Exodus 7:3) So, yeah, Satan couldn't have rebelled against God, unless God allowed it.

As for the curse, not entirely true. Genesis 3:17-19:

"And unto Adam he said, 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed the ground for [I]thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.'"

It was because of the sin of Adam that the earth and mankind were cursed. Yes, the serpent was cursed as well, but that wasn't what I was trying to emphisise. I was trying to point out where the curse of sin came from, and that wasn't from the serpent, that was from Adam. God didn't tell the serpent he couldn't eat of the tree, He told Adam that. You're right, Adam shouldn't have obeyed the serpant, but he did, and he knew better. But we don't suffer because of the serpant, we suffer because of Adam's sin, as Adam was the one charged to 'take dominion over the earth.' (Genesis 1:28)

BTW, what's Sanh.?

[rimpelcut]

The word used for Satan means adversary or accuser in Hebrew. That's all it means. Angels do not have the free-will to break apart from god.

God does punish Adam and Eve, but they always both possessed the good impulse and the evil impulse, that's why they ate the fruit. The curse is actually placed on the serpent. "And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Genesis 3:14)

Because you have done this From here [we learn] that we may not intercede in favor of one who entices people [to idolatry], for had He asked him, “Why did you do this?” he could have answered, “The words of the master and the words of the pupil-whose words do we obey?” [i.e., Adam and Eve should have obeyed God rather than the serpent!]- [from Sanh. 29a]

more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field If he was cursed more than the cattle [whose gestation period is long], he was surely cursed more than the beasts [whose gestation period is comparatively shorter]. Our Rabbis established this midrash in Tractate Bechoroth (8a) to teach that the gestation period of a serpent is seven years.

That actually makes sense since man can choose his own way and often that leads to evil when he opposes the laws of nature. but when he doesn't he does good.

[rimpelcut]

God did not create space and time, we did to better understand the universe.

haha, yes you are right, space and time is just a concept. I said that does not mean god made the universe but since you weren't refering to that I made a bullshit statement.

[kunshu]

haha, yes you are right, space and time is just a concept. I said that does not mean god made the universe but since you weren't refering to that I made a bullshit statement.


accutually space and time is reffered in the koran

[rimpelcut]

I am a muslim and i believe in god... why? because like kunshu mentioned ealiar The Quran is a source of inspiration and true knowledge, in it i find everything i need to prove to me that god exsits :tem . Facts about scientific subjects and the news delivered to us about the past and future, facts that no one could have known at the time of the Quran's revelation, are announced in its verses. It is impossible for this information, to have been known with the level of knowledge and technology available in 7th century Arabia. for example:

Could anyone in 7th century in Arabia have known that our atmosphere is made up of seven layers?

Could anyone in 7th century in Arabia have known in detail the various stages of development from which an embryo grows into a baby and then enters the world from inside his mother?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Quran puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the fact that each individual's fingertips are absolutely unique, when we have only discovered this fact recently, using modern technology and modern scientific equipment?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the role of one of Pharaoh's most prominent aids, Haman, when the details of hieroglyphic translation were only discovered two centuries ago?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the word "Pharaoh" was only used from the 14th century B.C. and not before, as the Old Testament erroneously claims?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about Ubar and Iram's Pillars, which were only discovered in recent decades via the use of NASA satellite photographs?

So yes i am a firm believer in god and thats why i choose to believe... :smile-big

So all of this knowledge was said by god to some guy and he wrote it down in a book right? or maybe the book just appeard I don't now but it doesn't matter.
So I started looking on google and the suprising thing that I found is that one priest or whatever said that it were seven layers starting from the materials in the ground, uranium iron and then up. another said it was different: one layer is our closest layer, then lunar layer, the solar layer, then solar system layer, galaxy etc. another said it was 7 atmospeheres, but when I looked at a picture of the atmospheres :Thermosphere,Mesosphere ,Stratosphere ,Troposphere I saw that if you count the pieces where temperature changes and where it stays constant you get the number:7! now in the verse in the quran there is written 7 layers heaven and 7 layers ground. it could be 7 continents according to islam studyers or 7 layers of the planet inner ground. They see similarities but they don't know what Allah meant! So why do believe in quran just because they have found similarities? look at this:
"In surat al7adid Allah Almighty mentions the word iron (al7adid) in the verse 25 and this sura's number is 57..if you summed these number up you will have 82 which is the same result that you would get from summing up iron's atomic number 26 and it mass number (55.845 approximately 56). The word al7adid appears in the verse 25 approximately in the middle of that verse. If you divided 24.5/29(the number of verses in that surah) you will get 0.844827586207 which agrees with the recently discovered iron's mass number up to three significant digits ! can this be just a couensedense or its another sign of a miracle?"
Every religion has claims of beeing scientifically correct.
How did they "know" these things? well probable from observing nature. Buddha who lived 500 b.c understood psychology in a way most psychologists don't. He understood how nature works, that there are different moon gravitations, he new how the universe works with atams and whatnot. later people developed the whole chi and acupuncture stuff, perfected fighting skills from which scientists learn every day. They new what nerves are, that they are your consciousness and transmiters for the senses. how each nerve is connected with organs. What a propar dieet looks like, how decieses appear, what they are. How to give women orgasms, how to let men have long orgasms. a few examples are buddhas discoveries but anyway all of these knowledges are really really old. now scientists are discovering that people new chemistry way back in middle ages, on a more advanced level. my point is, people discovered new things along time ago which are rediscovered through science now. after mohammed died(may he rest in piece) arabs made allot of scientifical advances, maybe they liked science? maybe they revered god to the thing that started universe and had really good things in mind like, we must unite because we are all the same and maybe mohammed used propaganda to make his point across only because he had good things in mind he became a profete, he coppied things from the bible and made it better, more logical and true and more modern. these are just some random thoughts.

[M00se]

I choose to still belive in god to calm the fear of death .

[rimpelcut]

accutually space and time is reffered in the koran

actually everyone knows what space and time is

[kunshu]

So all of this knowledge was said by god to some guy and he wrote it down in a book right? or maybe the book just appeard I don't now but it doesn't matter.
So I started looking on google and the suprising thing that I found is that one priest or whatever said that it were seven layers starting from the materials in the ground, uranium iron and then up. another said it was different: one layer is our closest layer, then lunar layer, the solar layer, then solar system layer, galaxy etc. another said it was 7 atmospeheres, but when I looked at a picture of the atmospheres :Thermosphere,Mesosphere ,Stratosphere ,Troposphere I saw that if you count the pieces where temperature changes and where it stays constant you get the number:7! now in the verse in the quran there is written 7 layers heaven and 7 layers ground. it could be 7 continents according to islam studyers or 7 layers of the planet inner ground. They see similarities but they don't know what Allah meant! So why do believe in quran just because they have found similarities? look at this:
"In surat al7adid Allah Almighty mentions the word iron (al7adid) in the verse 25 and this sura's number is 57..if you summed these number up you will have 82 which is the same result that you would get from summing up iron's atomic number 26 and it mass number (55.845 approximately 56). The word al7adid appears in the verse 25 approximately in the middle of that verse. If you divided 24.5/29(the number of verses in that surah) you will get 0.844827586207 which agrees with the recently discovered iron's mass number up to three significant digits ! can this be just a couensedense or its another sign of a miracle?"
Every religion has claims of beeing scientifically correct.
How did they "know" these things? well probable from observing nature. Buddha who lived 500 b.c understood psychology in a way most psychologists don't. He understood how nature works, that there are different moon gravitations, he new how the universe works with atams and whatnot. later people developed the whole chi and acupuncture stuff, perfected fighting skills from which scientists learn every day. They new what nerves are, that they are your consciousness and transmiters for the senses. how each nerve is connected with organs. What a propar dieet looks like, how decieses appear, what they are. How to give women orgasms, how to let men have long orgasms. a few examples are buddhas discoveries but anyway all of these knowledges are really really old. now scientists are discovering that people new chemistry way back in middle ages, on a more advanced level. my point is, people discover new things along time ago which are rediscovered through science now.


that priest said it in 2000 not in the year 600

and that thing about iron is REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLY random since the number 25 appears many,many,many times

and really if you cut open someone's body you can see the nerves

and you can find out about the nerves yourself by pressing on various points on you're own body

the arabs however can't see the atmosphere AND THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL THAT THE ARABS KNEW WHAT DNA WAS


you need moderne devices for that

or about the sea in between spain and morroco those seas split in 2 different directions

that was written n the koran

there is also stuff in there like 'the essence of time and space"

[rimpelcut]

LOL there is mixed hollands between you're posts

anyways

the arabs didn't knew a shit about DNA also they didn't know anything about the atmosphere(noone did the atmosphere/DNA/magnoshpere was found out
1300 years later)but the koran said things about DNA and the atmoshphere, the way water flows.how rain falls ETC.

mohamhed was a normal guy that lived in mekka without education(he oculdn't write/read/math ETC)

then one day allah spoke to the angel gamriel telling him about the islam then the angel gabriel kept giving mohamehd soera's and mohamed gave them to the people

then when gabriel gave mohamehd all soera's then mohamed made a book he called it a koran

but unfortunatly

the people in mekka were all jewesh/crisht/no believers ETC.

and they didn't believe mohamed a few people believed him

thats why mohamed was exiled he went to the city medina and he showed the koran to the people there

the people of medina believed mohamed and they gave him a place to stay

after a few years mohamed was the leader of medina

but because mohamed was leader now

gabriel told him that he must spread the believe of islam

and so he did he sended riders to mekka, to china,to europe the believe spreaded out everywhere


but not everyone accepted the islam and so many cities in arabia waged war with mohamed mohamed won the war and was leader of mekka then he went on with spreading the believe/advising people about islam

(sometimes fighting in a jihad)

thats the story of mohamed

How do you know they didn't knew shit, didn't they make allot of scientifical discoverys after mohammeds death, and made in fact the best discoveries at that time, not by koran? Why did gabriel give such crappy discoveries? I mean no one(scientists) listened to those storys anyway and made such super discoveries compared to that.
p.s how could mohammed read the koran?

[kunshu]

How do you know they didn't knew shit, didn't they make allot of scientifical discoverys after mohammeds death, and made in fact the best discoveries at that time, not by koran? Why did gabriel give such crappy discoveries? I mean no one(scientists) listened to those storys anyway and made such super discoveries compared to that.
p.s how could mohammed read the koran?


it was to strenghten the believe in the future as written in the koran people will lose more faith in god ass the time passes

and the koran is right these days a lot of people still don't believe in any type of god

thats why i think allah wrote that on the koran



and mohamed could read the koran because.............


allah said so.

gabriel came to mohamed one day and gave him a book

he told mohamed:"read!"

mohamed answered:"i can't read"

gabriel repeaed by asking mohamed 3 times o read and mohamed anwsers the same

the last time gabriel said to him:"in name of allah iorder you to READ"


than mohame could suddendly read


and thats how it went

[rimpelcut]

Wow, these posts are getting long! :amuse Not that I'm any less guilty of that...

Ok, lets see if we can get on the same page; I think we must be missing each other at some point.

Simple question: How was God created? That's fair enough. My anwser, as you've guessed, is that He wasn't created. You see, what I was trying to explain is, something had to be not created. Take your time and think about that for just a moment, so that what I say next might not get too confusing. ^_^ Whether it be space or God, there had to be a something that started all somethings; otherwise, you will continuously go back to what came before, to what created what. Does that make sense? (Kinda hard to explain over the internet!) I know it's confusing, but logically, there has to be something or someone that has always exsisted.

As for your statement that time doesn't exsist; if your theorising, that's ok. If you think it's true, well, um, yeah... let's not get into that.

As for the consience thingy, I was using it in to different senses. Sorry I didn't make that clear! :sweatdrop The first sense was our ability to think and reason, the difference between us and mice. The second was that voice in the back of your mind that says, "Don't do that; you know it's wrong." So when I say that we have the law 'written on our hearts,' I mean we have our consience telling us what is right/wrong. Now, this may seem harsh, but it's human nature to do the wrong things. If you've ever watched young children, you'll notice something very sad and very interesting: you'll never have to teach a child to steal or hit; they do that just fine on their own. What you have to teach a child is how to share and how to say, 'I'm sorry.' So what I'm trying to say, which may be what you ment in the first place, is that people, by nature, rebel against what they know is morally right, but as they grow and learn, (hopefully) they learn to do what is right.

I hope that helps clear some things up! ^_^

And now, since you are asking us to examine what we believe, is it fair if I ask you some questions about what you believe? What is your answer to 'why do you/don't you believe in God?' When you say this:

THe problem is that the ones that created the religion also tried to find the truth so they have used facts and filled the gap with non-facts to make it logical and thus made it for a part right making other people belief just like they did.

does this mean that you believe people make up all religions? Are you saying that all religions are simply made up by people looking for answers to unanswerable questions? If you are, then you are saying that, regardless of what others may believe, you yourself are right, and no religion really holds any weight, because they are all made by flawable, desprate men. Because you started this thread as an open discussion, asking an open question, I really don't think that's what you believe. ^_^ So what do you believe, loco?
I hope you like reading:
:sad oh man you didn't get my point because I made the sentance: how was god created. What I meant was that there does not have to be a god that created stuff, you can have just the universe and that is it. You can't ask why was that created because it just exists(we agreed on the point that there is only something I hope) imagine you have only a stone that exists. it exists because there is only existance.
Well I see the good evil thing in another perspective: we have subconsciousness were our processor is, it handels al invisible systems like nerves and hart and organs etc. It also processes the senses and gives output to the part of the brain that is "conscious". We use our senses to see the world and walk in the world. Now the processor processes the information by logic: if this then that. between the senses(our consciousness) it can also make connections. Between words, which are sounds and the memory of how "apple" looks like we know what is meant etc. Now when we know what is right we simply see,through the mechanics in the reality, the right way. What is the most usefull and "smart" thing to do. Now with this ability to be conscious of everything and make connections we also have a danger: If we make connections through not understanding we can become crazy.
You have a problem in the world> you find a way aound it> if you haven't found a way you can get impatient because you still want or need to solve the problem> impatients leads to mental grief(this is by a hormone) when you really want to solve it you start to express your wantingness in stress(maybe if you contract your muscles around your skull you are thinking harder) or a classic example of people that thighten there muscles to get more power, this contradicts with movement that creates power. people want to solve something but don't and express there wantingness through stress in the body, which can lead to hyper tension and stomach aches and feelings of fear: your body wants to run but it doesn't. When you solve the problem you get "happy" you think happiness is the opposite of sandness but it is not. yes the hormone dopamine involved gives you a feeling of happiness but you get happy when your unhappyness gets less it's still a part of the whole problem not solved thingy. when you are consciouss and mindfull(knowing) you don't get the things that give evil(lust,greed,ignorance etc etc) which are formed from happyness and hateness which are discriminating in a matter of: that should exist, that shouldn't exist! well anyway I think that if you think of some examples in your own life from the past when you started to get real problems and emotions, you would understand. I hope:blink

In what do I believe? I believe in nothing, because believing would mean That I am following other people, that I might be wrong. believing other people causes error in my mind, probable because it is labelled as fake information and because of that It is unusefull untill explained or proven. When I think, I make a reconstruction of the process with my imagination. I can think with formulas. That is how I use my logic to use previously accepted truths to find new truths. So I never believed in anything except I feared monsters around the corners but I got rid of that once I realized how the mind creates it. Ofcourse in my childhood I got insecureties but that is because of the evil of other people, you have to keep yourself on top of things, keep yourself in check. You could call me a buddhist because that is the only religion that I studied a bit, I don't do those mantra stuff because I know what it does and I will use meditation and kung-fu instead. I just grabbed the info that made sense which is the teaching by buddha and left the whole story crap because it is to difficult to understand it without knowledge of customs and the meanings behind it because it was made by people after buddha. When I was a little boy I looked in the mirror and thought: what is me? who am I? well this "religion" explained it. allot of the things I wondered later on, got answered by the buddha teachings. It wasn't like The teachings are so super, they are really simple but I never took the time to think about those things properly. I was to busy with stupid problems. the irony hahahaa

[skunkworks]

OK, Satan is used in English as a name for the Devil, Dominator of Hell, the angel that rebelled against God. :notrust I think that that's common knowledge. As for angels not having the ablitity to rebel against God, you could ultimately say that even humans don't have the ablility to rebel against the Almighty God. God does, however, harden and soften peoples hearts, according to His will. (Exodus 7:3) So, yeah, Satan couldn't have rebelled against God, unless God allowed it.

As for the curse, not entirely true. Genesis 3:17-19:

"And unto Adam he said, 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed the ground for [I]thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.'"

It was because of the sin of Adam that the earth and mankind were cursed. Yes, the serpent was cursed as well, but that wasn't what I was trying to emphisise. I was trying to point out where the curse of sin came from, and that wasn't from the serpent, that was from Adam. God didn't tell the serpent he couldn't eat of the tree, He told Adam that. You're right, Adam shouldn't have obeyed the serpant, but he did, and he knew better. But we don't suffer because of the serpant, we suffer because of Adam's sin, as Adam was the one charged to 'take dominion over the earth.' (Genesis 1:28)

BTW, what's Sanh.?

Satan was always controlled by god, as the story of Job illustrates. The common knowledge about Satan is a misinterpretation. Read the Bible in Hebrew with the proper translations. Satan never rebells against god. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil. The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will.

You might want to reread those passages in Genesis. God curses the GROUND, not Adam. The punishment Adam (men) receives is to toil in the fields, and Eve (women) is to endure the pain of childbirth.

cursed be the ground for your sake It will bring up cursed things for you, such as flies, fleas, and ants. This can be compared to one who falls into evil ways, and people curse the breasts from which he suckled. — [from Gen. Rabbah 20: 8]

Adam's sin did not carry over to the entire human race. Suffering is caused by people's conscious decisions to do evil.

[rimpelcut]

that priest said it in 2000 not in the year 600

and that thing about iron is REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLY random since the number 25 appears many,many,many times

and really if you cut open someone's body you can see the nerves

and you can find out about the nerves yourself by pressing on various points on you're own body

the arabs however can't see the atmosphere AND THERE IS NO CHANCE IN HELL THAT THE ARABS KNEW WHAT DNA WAS


you need moderne devices for that

or about the sea in between spain and morroco those seas split in 2 different directions

that was written n the koran

there is also stuff in there like 'the essence of time and space"

I said buddha 500 b.c, read better. Ow yeah the sea splitting that is so WOW, people could make maps acuratly without divices. and they could know that to. essesnce of time and space? tim and space is made up, you know why? because one second for you could be one hour and 1 meter could be super long on microscopical level. but you said stuff so lets forget about that.
Ow and the dna stuff-the person that claims this doesn't have proof he just founf similarities like the iron thing you know? plus there are allot of complaints from muslims that this man cannot be contacted and that it is bullshit. the whole theory behind it is that certain words are certain letters from dna. Now when I read the sutas I really find it funny that scientists are "amazed" since the sutas themselfs don't say much except things that any man could claim: the sperm goes in a women womb then attaches itself and then grows bones and flesh(I guess they knew what they are made of).
water goes down the mountains and creates rivers and underwater storages(guess they knew what a well was)
Do you not see that wind pushes the clouds and lets them come together and they start to rain. well.. uuuh.. yes.

Anyway I am not impressed.

[rimpelcut]

it was to strenghten the believe in the future as written in the koran people will lose more faith in god ass the time passes

and the koran is right these days a lot of people still don't believe in any type of god

thats why i think allah wrote that on the koran



and mohamed could read the koran because.............


allah said so.

gabriel came to mohamed one day and gave him a book

he told mohamed:"read!"

mohamed answered:"i can't read"

gabriel repeaed by asking mohamed 3 times o read and mohamed anwsers the same

the last time gabriel said to him:"in name of allah iorder you to READ"


than mohame could suddendly read


and thats how it went

you haven't answered these questions:
Originally Posted by loco
How do you know they didn't knew shit, didn't they make allot of scientifical discoverys after mohammeds death, and made in fact the best discoveries at that time, not by koran? Why did gabriel give such crappy discoveries? I mean no one(scientists) listened to those storys anyway and made such super discoveries compared to koran revelations.

"p.s how could mohammed read the koran?" gabriel gave him power to read, well that explains it I guess:tem

[rimpelcut]

I choose to still belive in god to calm the fear of death .

why are you afraid to die? you are so young.
fear comes from saying there is no way out of the problem. If you realize that who you are are just memories and consciousness of senses and when you die you will go back to where you came from, you won't be afraid cuz there is nothing to be afraid. I just don't see why you need the believe of god when it can be so much simpler and truthfuller.

[Cthulhu-versailles]

..if this has been asked.. okay ignore me, if not RESPOND.

Do you God believers believe in God and your Religion or believe in just God.

Belief in God I can understand, belief in religion I cannot.

-Ps, damn there alot of topic on relgion spruiting up these days... Swish!

[GeniusShikamaru]

Pascal's wager. thats why i believe.

[Kateryu]

Satan was always controlled by god, as the story of Job illustrates. The common knowledge about Satan is a misinterpretation. Read the Bible in Hebrew with the proper translations. Satan never rebells against god. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.

Temptation is there to try and deter us. It gives us the ability to do the wrong thing. More importantly, it gives us the ability to look at evil and refuse to do it. By presenting us with the opportunity to do evil, it gives us the ability to choose between good and evil. The ability to choose between good and evil is what gives us free will.

You might want to reread those passages in Genesis. God curses the GROUND, not Adam. The punishment Adam (men) receives is to toil in the fields, and Eve (women) is to endure the pain of childbirth.

cursed be the ground for your sake It will bring up cursed things for you, such as flies, fleas, and ants. This can be compared to one who falls into evil ways, and people curse the breasts from which he suckled. — [from Gen. Rabbah 20: 8]

Adam's sin did not carry over to the entire human race. Suffering is caused by people's conscious decisions to do evil.

Yes, Satan was determined by God to do what he did, but that doesn't mean he didn't rebel. What I'm trying to say (and I don't think this is too far off from what you mean), is that Satan, though his heart was hardened by God, still truly hated God in his heart. God made Satan rebel, but that doesn't mean Satan hated God any less. Satan was an insterment of God, but Satan still hates God, and rebels against God. As for the whole test part, do you mean we work for our salvation? We have to pass a test to get to heaven?

As for reading the Bible in the Hebrew, that would be a good thing for me to do. But as it happens, I don't know Hebrew, and I currently don't have the time to study it, as I'm on the mission field in Japan (and I'm learning Japanese). I do believe, however, that my Bible is an accurate translation of the Holy Scriptures, and I have faith that those who translated it did the best that they could.

Yes, God cursed the ground, but He also cursed Adam:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
If it wasn't so, why do we die? If Adam wasn't the first to sin, if sin wasn't passed down through the seed of the man, and if we weren't all born in sin, why do we sin and die, from a Biblical perspective? I am curious.

And what is Rabbah?

[Kateryu]

I hope you like reading:
:sad oh man you didn't get my point because I made the sentance: how was god created. What I meant was that there does not have to be a god that created stuff, you can have just the universe and that is it. You can't ask why was that created because it just exists(we agreed on the point that there is only something I hope) imagine you have only a stone that exists. it exists because there is only existance.
Well I see the good evil thing in another perspective: we have subconsciousness were our processor is, it handels al invisible systems like nerves and hart and organs etc. It also processes the senses and gives output to the part of the brain that is "conscious". We use our senses to see the world and walk in the world. Now the processor processes the information by logic: if this then that. between the senses(our consciousness) it can also make connections. Between words, which are sounds and the memory of how "apple" looks like we know what is meant etc. Now when we know what is right we simply see,through the mechanics in the reality, the right way. What is the most usefull and "smart" thing to do. Now with this ability to be conscious of everything and make connections we also have a danger: If we make connections through not understanding we can become crazy.
You have a problem in the world> you find a way aound it> if you haven't found a way you can get impatient because you still want or need to solve the problem> impatients leads to mental grief(this is by a hormone) when you really want to solve it you start to express your wantingness in stress(maybe if you contract your muscles around your skull you are thinking harder) or a classic example of people that thighten there muscles to get more power, this contradicts with movement that creates power. people want to solve something but don't and express there wantingness through stress in the body, which can lead to hyper tension and stomach aches and feelings of fear: your body wants to run but it doesn't. When you solve the problem you get "happy" you think happiness is the opposite of sandness but it is not. yes the hormone dopamine involved gives you a feeling of happiness but you get happy when your unhappyness gets less it's still a part of the whole problem not solved thingy. when you are consciouss and mindfull(knowing) you don't get the things that give evil(lust,greed,ignorance etc etc) which are formed from happyness and hateness which are discriminating in a matter of: that should exist, that shouldn't exist! well anyway I think that if you think of some examples in your own life from the past when you started to get real problems and emotions, you would understand. I hope:blink

In what do I believe? I believe in nothing, because believing would mean That I am following other people, that I might be wrong. believing other people causes error in my mind, probable because it is labelled as fake information and because of that It is unusefull untill explained or proven. When I think, I make a reconstruction of the process with my imagination. I can think with formulas. That is how I use my logic to use previously accepted truths to find new truths. So I never believed in anything except I feared monsters around the corners but I got rid of that once I realized how the mind creates it. Ofcourse in my childhood I got insecureties but that is because of the evil of other people, you have to keep yourself on top of things, keep yourself in check. You could call me a buddhist because that is the only religion that I studied a bit, I don't do those mantra stuff because I know what it does and I will use meditation and kung-fu instead. I just grabbed the info that made sense which is the teaching by buddha and left the whole story crap because it is to difficult to understand it without knowledge of customs and the meanings behind it because it was made by people after buddha. When I was a little boy I looked in the mirror and thought: what is me? who am I? well this "religion" explained it. allot of the things I wondered later on, got answered by the buddha teachings. It wasn't like The teachings are so super, they are really simple but I never took the time to think about those things properly. I was to busy with stupid problems. the irony hahahaa

OK, I actually think we did understand eachother, when I said that there has to be something that has always existed. ^_^ You can believe it's the universe, and I believe it's God, but there has to be something that wasn't created. That's what I was trying to say. (It's really hard to explain over the internet :sweatdrop .)

I totally agree with you when you say when we make connections without understanding, we go crazy. I think it's completely important to understand things; there's no point in going through life if you don't. Say if you're searching for a meaning in life, and you claim to find it in God, and you don't understand exactly what you believe, simply taking everything by faith, then you really haven't found the meaning to life at all. If you look for the answer, claim you've found it, and still don't really understand it, you've waisted your time. :)

With the whole mind thing, I think you're right, to extent. The stressed mind can often cause physical and emotional harm to a person; my grandma is a perfect example of this. She spends all day sitting in front of CNN, worrying about every natural and unnatural disaster that might hit her house, and she's got more aches and pains than some women I know twice her age. I just think it's important to make it clear that emotions of the heart are different from the thoughts of the mind. (I think you'd agree with this.) I can know something is true, without feeling it. Like a child can know his daddy really does love him, even if his daddy yelled at him after a bad day at work; that doesn't mean the child feels like his dad loves him at the moment. (Doesn't mean what the daddy did was right, don't get me wrong.) The emotions, though they can be influenced by the mind, are seperate.

As for what you personally believe, I kind of find it sad. :( In my personal opinion, I would think that believing in nothing would leave me entirely empty. Part of why I believe in the Bible is that it's not the opinion of men, it's the Word of God. Yes, God used men to write it most of it down, but it was still divinely inspired by God, and much of it is God's words directly. God Himself, with His own finger, wrote the Ten Commandments on the stone tablet, so there are even parts that God didn't use men for. Anyway, I do understand not wanting to follow other men. But if you follow science, you are still following men, as you are trusting that the scientific 'truths' they write down really are what they discovered, just as men who believe various books of religion trust that the writters of those books wrote down the truth. If you trust in scientific theories, then you're following men just as much as you would be if you believed in a religion. In the end, no matter what you believe, you'll have to follow the words and works of fallen men. Unless, of course, you're doing all of your own experiments, documentations and such. Anyway, you said that you are fairly buddist, so I guess that's a part of your religion. Maybe it would be profitable for you to keep searching, ne? Maybe there is an answer to your question of 'Who am I?'. I hope you find it. :)

[Kateryu]

..if this has been asked.. okay ignore me, if not RESPOND.

Do you God believers believe in God and your Religion or believe in just God.

Belief in God I can understand, belief in religion I cannot.

-Ps, damn there alot of topic on relgion spruiting up these days... Swish!

What do you mean, belief in religion? :blink You mean, like, do we believe in what comes with believing in God? Like, do I believe in Christianity as well as God? I do believe in Christianity. So what's hard about understanding belief in religion?

[*Basma*]

Wow so many things i wanna reply to.. well ill try to make this short .. key wory *try* .. anyway yeah not all discoveries that arab made were because of the quran but it sure taught them a great deal.. muslims believe in quran not just because the scientific facts mentioned in it, but beacuse the predictions that were mentioned in it and simply because it makes sense like god has said in his holy book (If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it." (Qur'an, 4:82) just try to understand and read the quran im sure u'll believe what im saying..
there is a website that i have found while doing some research it includes the mircale of quran , you can visit if you like i hope it can be helpful :)

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com

also, when the prohphpet mohammed was choosen to become the messenger of islam he was told that all religions that came before, wether it was Christianity, or Judaism were all true and sent from god but they did not stay preserved. so yeah muslims believe that islam is the right religion but they also believe that the religions that came before it were also sent from god. it's one of the five pillars of faith in islam to believe in that.


In what do I believe? I believe in nothing, because believing would mean That I am following other people, that I might be wrong.

you know i feel thats it's harder to believe in nothing than something becasuse it's like fighting a natural insticnt that's inside you.. you know when humans were created god made us superior than other creatures.. he gave us a mind to think with and gave us the ability to choose but he also gave us this natural instinct inside us that makes us know somehow that there is something bigger out there, a creator , sometimes this instinct is overthrown by lust or material things but it's there non the less .

hehe guess i failed in making this post short:sweatdrop .. oh well

[rimpelcut]

..if this has been asked.. okay ignore me, if not RESPOND.

Do you God believers believe in God and your Religion or believe in just God.

Belief in God I can understand, belief in religion I cannot.

-Ps, damn there alot of topic on relgion spruiting up these days... Swish!

I don't understand what the difference is. the discussion thread is for both, why do you believe in god.

[kunshu]

you haven't answered these questions:
Originally Posted by loco
How do you know they didn't knew shit, didn't they make allot of scientifical discoverys after mohammeds death, and made in fact the best discoveries at that time, not by koran? Why did gabriel give such crappy discoveries? I mean no one(scientists) listened to those storys anyway and made such super discoveries compared to koran revelations.

"p.s how could mohammed read the koran?" gabriel gave him power to read, well that explains it I guess:tem


BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE MODERNE DEVICES

to be able to know there is a galaxy you need a space rocket shuttle

but they didn't had that

if you want to know what DNA is you must have special labatroium equipment so that you can check it out and see what it does

they didn't had that either

how are they supposed to know about the atmosphere if they can't see it they can't launch themself in space????


so its impossible for them to know

[kunshu]

the miracles of the koran.....


i have that book 2 basma its really good isn't it

written by harun yahya

[skunkworks]

Yes, Satan was determined by God to do what he did, but that doesn't mean he didn't rebel. What I'm trying to say (and I don't think this is too far off from what you mean), is that Satan, though his heart was hardened by God, still truly hated God in his heart. God made Satan rebel, but that doesn't mean Satan hated God any less. Satan was an insterment of God, but Satan still hates God, and rebels against God. As for the whole test part, do you mean we work for our salvation? We have to pass a test to get to heaven?

As for reading the Bible in the Hebrew, that would be a good thing for me to do. But as it happens, I don't know Hebrew, and I currently don't have the time to study it, as I'm on the mission field in Japan (and I'm learning Japanese). I do believe, however, that my Bible is an accurate translation of the Holy Scriptures, and I have faith that those who translated it did the best that they could.

Yes, God cursed the ground, but He also cursed Adam:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
If it wasn't so, why do we die? If Adam wasn't the first to sin, if sin wasn't passed down through the seed of the man, and if we weren't all born in sin, why do we sin and die, from a Biblical perspective? I am curious.

All of that stuff about Satan is New Testament, it's a mythology written to accompany Jesus' and the apostles' teachings, mainy Paul's I think.

Adam and Eve were never immortal to begin with. Adam was expelled from Eden to prevent him gaining access to the tree of life (Genesis 3), which if he ate from it would have given eternal life. But they were never cursed. Old Testament scholars believe their life-spans were simply shortened.

"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19}

With the sweat of your face After you toil with it very much. — [Mid. Tadshei, Otzar Midrashim]

According to Judaism we were put here to elevate ourselves and others to holiness. That is turn the mundane into something special. God never intended for humans to be immortal, had Adam not sinned perhaps things would be different, but sin is not passed down through him. Sin always existed, both Adam and Eve possessed the good and evil impulse, just like you and I.

Here's a great place to read Old Testament with Rashi's commentary.

http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255

[rimpelcut]

OK, I actually think we did understand eachother, when I said that there has to be something that has always existed. ^_^ You can believe it's the universe, and I believe it's God, but there has to be something that wasn't created. That's what I was trying to say. (It's really hard to explain over the internet :sweatdrop .)

good, we understand.

With the whole mind thing, I think you're right, to extent. The stressed mind can often cause physical and emotional harm to a person; my grandma is a perfect example of this. She spends all day sitting in front of CNN, worrying about every natural and unnatural disaster that might hit her house, and she's got more aches and pains than some women I know twice her age. I just think it's important to make it clear that emotions of the heart are different from the thoughts of the mind. (I think you'd agree with this.) I can know something is true, without feeling it. Like a child can know his daddy really does love him, even if his daddy yelled at him after a bad day at work; that doesn't mean the child feels like his dad loves him at the moment. (Doesn't mean what the daddy did was right, don't get me wrong.) The emotions, though they can be influenced by the mind, are seperate.

I want to stress that the mind is what creates, also emotions. You might know(memory from the past, or logic: he gives you food, home) that your daddy loves you but if you didn't you could take the yelling seriously.
Emotions are just magnifiers of your decisions, If we did not fear getting eaten by a bear we would let him do it. In other words if we didn't care about staying alive we wouldn't do shit.

As for what you personally believe, I kind of find it sad. :( In my personal opinion, I would think that believing in nothing would leave me entirely empty. Part of why I believe in the Bible is that it's not the opinion of men, it's the Word of God. Yes, God used men to write it most of it down, but it was still divinely inspired by God, and much of it is God's words directly. God Himself, with His own finger, wrote the Ten Commandments on the stone tablet, so there are even parts that God didn't use men for. Anyway, I do understand not wanting to follow other men. But if you follow science, you are still following men, as you are trusting that the scientific 'truths' they write down really are what they discovered, just as men who believe various books of religion trust that the writters of those books wrote down the truth. If you trust in scientific theories, then you're following men just as much as you would be if you believed in a religion. In the end, no matter what you believe, you'll have to follow the words and works of fallen men. Unless, of course, you're doing all of your own experiments, documentations and such. Anyway, you said that you are fairly buddist, so I guess that's a part of your religion. Maybe it would be profitable for you to keep searching, ne? Maybe there is an answer to your question of 'Who am I?'. I hope you find it. :)
Believing is assuming it is so. I don't believe but If I want to know something I find it out. I don't fear death but I will preserve my life. I understand what life is, I understand our reality, I understand who I am.
Now remember when I said you can either believe In something or you can find the truth when you face a problem? For example: you like a chick but don't get her, you think why? Either you find out that chicks like confident, solid of mind men that don't go like hungry puppies aproaching women or you can believe well My clothes are ugly that player has good clothes and is popular so that is how I will get chicks. I have to get populair and I have to get clothes. You used logic, yes, but you didn't think of behavior that chicks like or in other words, your karakter and personality but you looked at the first connection so you didn't have to think allot. You got desperate and accepted the first answer you could logicly find. Then when you get popular and get clothes you might get some chicks, but then when you get to university you suddenly have to different things to get chicks and different things to get popular and you get the problem again. So in the end you didn't new shit about girls. I am not empty cuz I have my answers just like you have yours. because of all of this I don't just believe, I find to just believing unlogical, I find it empty.
Well the truths that scientist write down they really have discovered: they saw this and that and wrote it down just like they saw in the real world. Theories however is a different thing because they just make logical connections between things but don't now if this is fo real. But they don't believe it! They might say they believe but they won't take it as truths, they will always have an open mind to change in the theory. If not then it is a bad scientist. If a scientist says I believe then I know that he is just making assumptions, I only absorb the facts that he has discovered.
Now in a religion your are only believing.
I don't consider myself a buddist because the same truths were found by people never beeing a buddist. Like I said I don't believe anything. When you start following buddha teachings you will learn not to simply believe! monks say believe in the goodness of buddha. There is the truth that live is simple, there are no "bad" emotions just a mix of different factors and doing harmfull things to everything is stupid. But since you don't know this yet they say believe in the goodness or everything will be fine so you will get closer to the truths in your meditation and life. Unfortunatly no one will just accept this belief except religious people. But the religious people, depending on the words that are said will have diffeculty to realize the truths because they will have to ask over and over again: what does this mean? there learning proces will be slowed down. They will be depended upon things said. they will be followers not thinkers. But you can also just assume that the belief is true and go and search if this is right and then they you will find the truth and start investigating other teachings.

[rimpelcut]

Wow so many things i wanna reply to.. well ill try to make this short .. key wory *try* .. anyway yeah not all discoveries that arab made were because of the quran but it sure taught them a great deal.. muslims believe in quran not just because the scientific facts mentioned in it, but beacuse the predictions that were mentioned in it and simply because it makes sense like god has said in his holy book (If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it." (Qur'an, 4:82) just try to understand and read the quran im sure u'll believe what im saying..
there is a website that i have found while doing some research it includes the mircale of quran , you can visit if you like i hope it can be helpful :)

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com

also, when the prohphpet mohammed was choosen to become the messenger of islam he was told that all religions that came before, wether it was Christianity, or Judaism were all true and sent from god but they did not stay preserved. so yeah muslims believe that islam is the right religion but they also believe that the religions that came before it were also sent from god. it's one of the five pillars of faith in islam to believe in that.
First I would like to say that it cannot teach anything unless people would investigate those truths in the qu'ran, test them if you will, and use the knowledge found to create new understandings. But they would themselfs learn these things, not given. What predictions becuase if it is like and a ball of fire went bla bla and then you say hey! they were right this looks allot like that then it would be just assumptions not truths, it would not state that quran is right.
"....did not stay preserved" wait so god was lying to people until he published the quran?



you know i feel thats it's harder to believe in nothing than something becasuse it's like fighting a natural insticnt that's inside you.. you know when humans were created god made us superior than other creatures.. he gave us a mind to think with and gave us the ability to choose but he also gave us this natural instinct inside us that makes us know somehow that there is something bigger out there, a creator , sometimes this instinct is overthrown by lust or material things but it's there non the less .

hehe guess i failed in making this post short:sweatdrop .. oh well
Uh I think the natural instinct is to "understand" things. if it weren't them allot of people would jump of the building after dreaming about flying.
What instinct that there is something bigger? We have instinct to eat. thinking about what does everything mean isn't instict. that there is something bigger, is a reflection of your incompetence to understand the simple truths. That is why you think there is something bigger, something you don't know/understand yet. You want to know something but because you don't even have clue what you are looking for you see it as super mysterious.

[rimpelcut]

BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE MODERNE DEVICES

to be able to know there is a galaxy you need a space rocket shuttle

but they didn't had that

if you want to know what DNA is you must have special labatroium equipment so that you can check it out and see what it does

they didn't had that either

how are they supposed to know about the atmosphere if they can't see it they can't launch themself in space????


so its impossible for them to know

Well actually you don't need rockets you can just see that the sun rotates differently and the moon also and that there are gravitations so probable the sun is also attracted and to move it, it has to go in circles and because it is in another space , and the sun gives light you have other suns and a kosmos. The quran doesn't say atmosphere! it says seven layers. did you read my post with the things about dna and all that?
by the way, I couldn't find anything about dna beeing a subject in the quran maybe you could give me the suta were it is beeing told?

[Kateryu]

All of that stuff about Satan is New Testament, it's a mythology written to accompany Jesus' and the apostles' teachings, mainy Paul's I think.

Adam and Eve were never immortal to begin with. Adam was expelled from Eden to prevent him gaining access to the tree of life (Genesis 3), which if he ate from it would have given eternal life. But they were never cursed. Old Testament scholars believe their life-spans were simply shortened.

"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19}

With the sweat of your face After you toil with it very much. — [Mid. Tadshei, Otzar Midrashim]

According to Judaism we were put here to elevate ourselves and others to holiness. That is turn the mundane into something special. God never intended for humans to be immortal, had Adam not sinned perhaps things would be different, but sin is not passed down through him. Sin always existed, both Adam and Eve possessed the good and evil impulse, just like you and I.

Here's a great place to read Old Testament with Rashi's commentary.

http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive.asp?AID=63255

Dude, we are on two completely different pages. I believe that we are saved through faith through Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins, and that without Christ's sacrifice, we would be doomed to hell. I also believe that works cannot sanctify us, period.

I believe that Adam and Eve were imortal, and that they fell from that state in sin. I believe Satan is real, and that God will destroy him at the end of days. As for 'Old Testement scholars,' I know just as many OT scholars who would say the exact opposite. That's the thing about scholars- there's always a scholar for the other perspective.

Sadly, I don't think that this discussion is profitable. I can see that neither one of us are going to budge.

[skunkworks]

Dude, we are on two completely different pages. I believe that we are saved through faith through Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins, and that without Christ's sacrifice, we would be doomed to hell. I also believe that works cannot sanctify us, period.

I guess that's what turns people off to Christianity sometimes. You're doomed if you don't succumb to the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. Doesn't seem very godly.

[kunshu]

Well actually you don't need rockets you can just see that the sun rotates differently and the moon also and that there are gravitations so probable the sun is also attracted and to move it, it has to go in circles and because it is in another space , and the sun gives light you have other suns and a kosmos. The quran doesn't say atmosphere! it says seven layers. did you read my post with the things about dna and all that?
by the way, I couldn't find anything about dna beeing a subject in the quran maybe you could give me the suta were it is beeing told?

errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

no


the koran said nothing about seven layers......


go back a page or 2 and then you will see the soera i posted

there was nothing about seven layers it said that there is a protecting roof above the earth

and loco

at that time people didn't give a shit about science

and you keep saying THEY


but the koran wasn't made up by the arabs you know

it was made by allah

and you NEED a space shuttle to know about space


sorry but....


its impossible to know about space without a rocket


people thought 1400 years ago that earth=galaxy

they thought the sun was a 20 meter tall ball in the sky that gave light

that fell and hid itself on the other side of the earth

heck! they thought the earth was flat!

they also thought the same about the moon

because there were no scientist 1400 years ago only inventors

people didn't know what anything was and they also didn't care

thats why there were many believers in god in that time

[Sephero]

Why is it important to define why someone believes in something? Everyone has their own reason, and psychologically analyzing their reasons for belief in a higher power only seems to show a desire to discredit or patronize. :S

My thoughts...

[neko-sennin]

I am a muslim and i believe in god... why? because like kunshu mentioned ealiar The Quran is a source of inspiration and true knowledge, in it i find everything i need to prove to me that god exsits :tem . So yes i am a firm believer in god and thats why i choose to believe... :smile-big

Please try not to be too offended, Basma, but this is what happens when you let a book do your thinking for you. As for the rest of the post, the quran ain't the only source of inexplicable knowledge on this planet. I used to rant about the bible that way when I was a kid. I would recommend broadening your horizons and shopping around before settling on something.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg

[Feri]

life has more sense if u believe in god, thats why i believe in god.

[rimpelcut]

errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

no


the koran said nothing about seven layers......


go back a page or 2 and then you will see the soera i posted

there was nothing about seven layers it said that there is a protecting roof above the earth

and loco

at that time people didn't give a shit about science

and you keep saying THEY


but the koran wasn't made up by the arabs you know

it was made by allah

and you NEED a space shuttle to know about space


sorry but....


its impossible to know about space without a rocket


people thought 1400 years ago that earth=galaxy

they thought the sun was a 20 meter tall ball in the sky that gave light

that fell and hid itself on the other side of the earth

heck! they thought the earth was flat!

they also thought the same about the moon

because there were no scientist 1400 years ago only inventors

people didn't know what anything was and they also didn't care

thats why there were many believers in god in that time

A roof? yes they said it because they saw that meteors are beeing burned. What the common people thought(world is flat isn't what the creative thinkers thought. Ofcourse there were scientists, inventors are scientist, fool.
Ofcourse they cared or else they wouldn't care about the quran.
I don't say crap, I read the suta that said and there are seven layers with the moonlight in their mids etc.
The suras don't imply what the people that read the quran imply. Every sura that is explained with a theory of what could be meant is followed with the words: allah knows best, meaning that they don't know, they just speculate.
I also have read critisism of other people that have also found there own inconsistancies in the quran: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/
Our discusion is ended in me saying no and you saying yes. So I think you should do some research and some propability thinking if you want to keep on discussing about the islam religion. I mean if you don't want to let go of your religion, fine, but don't debate about it either, because if you do it would be pointless.
I respect everyones choice, because it's theire choice.

[rimpelcut]

Why is it important to define why someone believes in something? Everyone has their own reason, and psychologically analyzing their reasons for belief in a higher power only seems to show a desire to discredit or patronize. :S

My thoughts...

It's to understand why they believe. So you say that everyone has reasons and they are psychological and therefore you can understand why one beliefs?:smile-big Also people that belief often say the same things why they belief. I don't care about dissing because I don't have an ego, really, I don't.

[neko-sennin]

EDITED TO SAY: replieded in wrong thread - my bad

I don't convert people. I subvert them.

But only those who are curious enough to try their own experiments. I don't force myself on anyone, a useful approach I picked up from most Buddhist philosophies. I only discuss talk with people who are also interested in such matters.

The only reason why I'm talking so much about my theories is because this is a debate about religion, so I'm just putting in my two cents. I left the evangelical thing behind over a decade ago.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg

[rimpelcut]

Please try not to be too offended, Basma, but this is what happens when you let a book do your thinking for you. As for the rest of the post, the quran ain't the only source of inexplicable knowledge on this planet. I used to rant about the bible that way when I was a kid. I would recommend broadening your horizons and shopping around before settling on something.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg

true, true..

[rimpelcut]

I don't convert people. I subvert them.

But only those who are curious enough to try their own experiments. I don't force myself on anyone, a useful approach I picked up from most Buddhist philosophies. I only discuss talk with people who are also interested in such matters.

The only reason why I'm talking so much about my theories is because this is a debate about religion, so I'm just putting in my two cents. I left the evangelical thing behind over a decade ago.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_sig_02.jpg
Well convert comes after subvert:tem . but I get your point you are not forcing your opinion you are just giving one.
I do it like that to but sometimes I forget to put in the word: my thought, I believe that...

[rimpelcut]

life has more sense if u believe in god, thats why i believe in god.
If the reason to live was different then life would have sense but not because of god.

[ikra]

simple because science debates would always go around an end conclusion of a designer.. therefore a creator of the universe... and therefore god.

[neko-sennin]

No one will know where the debate will end until we get there. *If* we get there.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_v2_01.jpg

[diglossiablues]

Pascal's wager. thats why i believe.

But there are multiple books describing God, and the method of betting on him that assures infinite utility - how do you know which table on which to lay down your chips?

[kunshu]

A roof? yes they said it because they saw that meteors are beeing burned. What the common people thought(world is flat isn't what the creative thinkers thought. Ofcourse there were scientists, inventors are scientist, fool.
Ofcourse they cared or else they wouldn't care about the quran.
I don't say crap, I read the suta that said and there are seven layers with the moonlight in their mids etc.
The suras don't imply what the people that read the quran imply. Every sura that is explained with a theory of what could be meant is followed with the words: allah knows best, meaning that they don't know, they just speculate.
I also have read critisism of other people that have also found there own inconsistancies in the quran: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/
Our discusion is ended in me saying no and you saying yes. So I think you should do some research and some propability thinking if you want to keep on discussing about the islam religion. I mean if you don't want to let go of your religion, fine, but don't debate about it either, because if you do it would be pointless.
I respect everyones choice, because it's theire choice.



LOL you can't see a metior burn in the skt you know?:amuse

[Kateryu]

I guess that's what turns people off to Christianity sometimes. You're doomed if you don't succumb to the belief that Jesus was the Messiah. Doesn't seem very godly.
Hmm, interesting. I think it is godly. Let's just leave it at that.

[Kyasurin]

i believe in god because i look at the world around me, and I think that there has to be SOMETHING or SOMEONE that made all this, it's too complex for me to think that a "big bang" or whatever caused it. a bunch of atoms coming together could NOT have made a world as complicated as ours.

[*Basma*]

What predictions becuase if it is like and a ball of fire went bla bla and then you say hey! they were right this looks allot like that then it would be just assumptions not truths, it would not state that quran is right
Just check out the site I mentioned in my last post... you’ll find the answer to your question.. :)

Neko-senin you said to broaden my horizons and shop before I settle for something... well I did... I asked my questions already and found my answers in Islam... I believe in god... I look around me and I know that these things must have been created by something greater than anything else... I read the quran and it makes sense to me... Shouldn’t that be a strong enough reason to believe? loco, you said that believing in something bigger was an incompetence to understand the simple truth... what simple truth is that, please explain it to me? you want to know my simple truth? there's one god and only one... I have faith in him even though I don’t see him but I look around me and find his greatness in everything that he created...

it's only natural to want to understand things, but still you won’t be able to understand everything no matter how hard you try... but yet everything happens for a reason...
did not stay preserved" wait so god was lying to people until he published the quran?
No god was not lying to people, these books were sent from god but after the deaths of the prophets that brought these books to the people, these books were changed by man so the religion itself was changed... thus god sent the final prophet Mohammed (peace be upon his soul) with the final religion and vowed to keep it intact “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)"...
I also have read critisism of other people that have also found there own inconsistancies in the quran: http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/
About this site, I visited it and while reading some of the inconsistencies mentioned it showed me that the person writing them obliviously doesn’t have a clear understanding of the verses of the quran... that tends to happen when a person doesn’t know the reason why these verses were sent from god…
Ill would be more than happy to explain my reasoning if you want.:amuse The only reason I didn’t explain it now is because I feel this post is already long as it is.

oh and kunshu.. i dont have the book "miracles of the quran" im searching for it hope ill find it :) .. the website is amazing though

[rimpelcut]

LOL you can't see a metior burn in the skt you know?:amuse

Fine, a comet :notrust:tem

[rimpelcut]

Just check out the site I mentioned in my last post... you’ll find the answer to your question.. :)

Neko-senin you said to broaden my horizons and shop before I settle for something... well I did... I asked my questions already and found my answers in Islam... I believe in god... I look around me and I know that these things must have been created by something greater than anything else... I read the quran and it makes sense to me... Shouldn’t that be a strong enough reason to believe? loco, you said that believing in something bigger was an incompetence to understand the simple truth... what simple truth is that, please explain it to me? you want to know my simple truth? there's one god and only one... I have faith in him even though I don’t see him but I look around me and find his greatness in everything that he created...

it's only natural to want to understand things, but still you won’t be able to understand everything no matter how hard you try... but yet everything happens for a reason...

No god was not lying to people, these books were sent from god but after the deaths of the prophets that brought these books to the people, these books were changed by man so the religion itself was changed... thus god sent the final prophet Mohammed (peace be upon his soul) with the final religion and vowed to keep it intact “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)"...

About this site, I visited it and while reading some of the inconsistencies mentioned it showed me that the person writing them obliviously doesn’t have a clear understanding of the verses of the quran... that tends to happen when a person doesn’t know the reason why these verses were sent from god…
Ill would be more than happy to explain my reasoning if you want.:amuse The only reason I didn’t explain it now is because I feel this post is already long as it is.

oh and kunshu.. i dont have the book "miracles of the quran" im searching for it hope ill find it :) .. the website is amazing though

Well I already had visited that website. That is why I started to talk about how meaningless the quran is. The suras mentioned had a vague connection to the predictions and the science things.
Uhm.. what are the reasons the quran was sent?
So god is now protecting the quran from corruption or is man? If it is god then he wouldn't let the previous get corrupted and if it were man then it would surely be corrupted.
Simple truth? well you know you walk, you talk, you are born you die. We exist on this planet with the sun and stars as lights. Everything that exist cannot come out of nothing so we simply exist. Ofcourse there could be a god but one does not encounter him. And that is the simple truth, when you have problems in those problems is the simple truth. Why do I use simple? because thinking of something you don't know(trying to find it with effort kinda.) creates complex, something bigger out there. You won't find the truth out of nowhere, you have to stop finding this unknown and when you do you will start getting the simple truths wherever you are looking, congratulations you have started to use your intelligents which is subconscious. I don't know if you understand this?
If you stop trying to find knowledge from somewhere else and start just observing, thoughts will follow, these are simple truths.
In the example of god, you try to find an answer to everything , you are struggling to find a truth and then you don't find it! but god fits that hole to that everything, to that truth you are seeking. Actually it is an excuse of the mind. I don't know what everything is about, lets just say that god is the answer. I don't no why it is, lets just say it is because of god. And the reason all of this started was because you stopped looking at the direct thing that is disturbing your mind and instead you started to try to find a answer out of thin air. You think of something(math, where did I put my keys?) and just when you give up that "thinking" you get a answer! so maybe that is why people believe they can force a answer out of thin air.
Please do talk about your own experiences with the religion and what it revealed to you.

[rimpelcut]

i believe in god because i look at the world around me, and I think that there has to be SOMETHING or SOMEONE that made all this, it's too complex for me to think that a "big bang" or whatever caused it. a bunch of atoms coming together could NOT have made a world as complicated as ours.

It's to complex for me to think..

[*Basma*]

Well I already had visited that website. That is why I started to talk about how meaningless the quran is. The suras mentioned had a vague connection to the predictions and the science things.
Uhm.. what are the reasons the quran was sent?
So god is now protecting the quran from corruption or is man? If it is god then he wouldn't let the previous get corrupted and if it were man then it would surely be corrupted.
Simple truth? well you know you walk, you talk, you are born you die. We exist on this planet with the sun and stars as lights. Everything that exist cannot come out of nothing so we simply exist. Ofcourse there could be a god but one does not encounter him. And that is the simple truth, when you have problems in those problems is the simple truth. Why do I use simple? because thinking of something you don't know(trying to find it with effort kinda.) creates complex, something bigger out there. You won't find the truth out of nowhere, you have to stop finding this unknown and when you do you will start getting the simple truths wherever you are looking, congratulations you have started to use your intelligents which is subconscious. I don't know if you understand this?
If you stop trying to find knowledge from somewhere else and start just observing, thoughts will follow, these are simple truths.
In the example of god, you try to find an answer to everything , you are struggling to find a truth and then you don't find it! but god fits that hole to that everything, to that truth you are seeking. Actually it is an excuse of the mind. I don't know what everything is about, lets just say that god is the answer. I don't no why it is, lets just say it is because of god. And the reason all of this started was because you stopped looking at the direct thing that is disturbing your mind and instead you started to try to find a answer out of thin air. You think of something(math, where did I put my keys?) and just when you give up that "thinking" you get a answer! so maybe that is why people believe they can force a answer out of thin air.
Please do talk about your own experiences with the religion and what it revealed to you.
vague? :huh ok.. ill give you an example.. one of the predictions in the quran was the victory of byzantuim ok? this is the verse in which the quran states that the Byzantine Empire would be victorious :
Alif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will be victorious within three to nine years. The affair is Allah's from beginning to end. On that day, the believers will rejoice. (Qur'an, 30:1-4) how can that be vague? at a time where the romans victory seemed impossiable these verses were revealed stating clearly that they would win even though they lost in the "lowest land" a geographical fact by the way that was proved by moderen measurement tecniques.. anyway back to my point the predictions are clear i dont understand why you would find them otherwise..
why was the quran sent?
i guess you could say it's mercy from god because it was sent to people to show them the right path and give them guidnence along the way .. the quran doesn't just tell what you could do to go to heaven or who you should worship, ect.. it gives you a way of life that if you follow you'll surely win this life and the afterlife..

God is protecting the quran... every other book that was sent from god and every prohpeht that came before mohammed (peace be upon him) was sent to certain groups of people so they were limited to a certain time and place. god did not vow to preserve them, instead , this responsibilty was given to the people of these nations.. except some of these people betrayed this responsibilty and changed these books but then prohpeht mohammed came and he was given a religion that wasn't just associated with a certain group, his message was intended for the whole world and it did reach the whole world, and he was given the quran the final book that contained the teachings of god, and god had said that this book will stay preserved till the end of time..

about this simple truth thing... it's not about trying to force an answer out of thin air.. like you said,when we stop trying to find truth from somewhere else and observe then thoughts will follow.. i understand ... thats why my simple truth is that there is one god and thats who i should believe in..

hmm my experience with islam .. lets see.. islam revealed many things to me, example, before god women and men are equal , even though life is filled with hardships it's just a test and with paitence and faith ill get through. it revealed to me that i have nothing to fear as long as i have faith in my heart, it taught me to be kind , paitent and proud.. to stand up for what i believe in.. islam is religion that gurantees human rights.. i wont go into detail but i hope i have answered your question.. :tem

[rimpelcut]

vague? :huh ok.. ill give you an example.. one of the predictions in the quran was the victory of byzantuim ok? this is the verse in which the quran states that the Byzantine Empire would be victorious :
Alif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will be victorious within three to nine years. The affair is Allah's from beginning to end. On that day, the believers will rejoice. (Qur'an, 30:1-4) how can that be vague? at a time where the romans victory seemed impossiable these verses were revealed stating clearly that they would win even though they lost in the "lowest land" a geographical fact by the way that was proved by moderen measurement tecniques.. anyway back to my point the predictions are clear i dont understand why you would find them otherwise..
why was the quran sent?
i guess you could say it's mercy from god because it was sent to people to show them the right path and give them guidnence along the way .. the quran doesn't just tell what you could do to go to heaven or who you should worship, ect.. it gives you a way of life that if you follow you'll surely win this life and the afterlife..

God is protecting the quran... every other book that was sent from god and every prohpeht that came before mohammed (peace be upon him) was sent to certain groups of people so they were limited to a certain time and place. god did not vow to preserve them, instead , this responsibilty was given to the people of these nations.. except some of these people betrayed this responsibilty and changed these books but then prohpeht mohammed came and he was given a religion that wasn't just associated with a certain group, his message was intended for the whole world and it did reach the whole world, and he was given the quran the final book that contained the teachings of god, and god had said that this book will stay preserved till the end of time..

about this simple truth thing... it's not about trying to force an answer out of thin air.. like you said,when we stop trying to find truth from somewhere else and observe then thoughts will follow.. i understand ... thats why my simple truth is that there is one god and thats who i should believe in..

hmm my experience with islam .. lets see.. islam revealed many things to me, example, before god women and men are equal , even though life is filled with hardships it's just a test and with paitence and faith ill get through. it revealed to me that i have nothing to fear as long as i have faith in my heart, it taught me to be kind , paitent and proud.. to stand up for what i believe in.. islam is religion that gurantees human rights.. i wont go into detail but i hope i have answered your question.. :tem
did the quran say byzitan empire? and why didn't he make a shorter sentance like: and after 3.5 year they will win?
I was revering to other predictions, the historical predictions where the only ones I didn't read.
But why did he gave the other prophets the responsibility when he knows that they will fail? isn't that pointless and causing more misery?
No you didn't understand me. There is no reason to believe in god because you can find the same things what you mentioned in the end of your post in real life. You think the religion gives those truths. In reality, those truths are because of the laws of nature meaning also man. And it isn't complicated to understand. If you experience the truth you won't have to have a solid belief. You will just know 100 % how things work and no mans words can misguide you. But you have read the quran and only got the knowledge of the basics of conduct. Yes they do give you some strength but don't let you realize that life is simple, there is no living towards some noble goal. If live is simple then every step you take will be without effort. no need to be proud because you are not unhappy. every test is an adventure you look forward to. keeping your neighbours alive by inspiring them to do healthy etc.
Anyway it doesn't matter what people believe or if they are scientists or whatever. find the simple truths and there will be not a moment of unhappyness.

[neko-sennin]

Basma, I hate to break this to you, but anything written by human hands is corrupt.

I've won bets more vaguely worded than some of these prophecies.

Again, I'll point out that the quran was niether the first, nor the last book, to which all manner of events can be atributed, and the only thing it tells me with any certainty is that some people might be able to see possible futures, and occasionally they manage to hit on more likely outcomes. After all, if you toss the dice enough times...

I guess the idea of the Universe(s?) having no beginning or ending just doesn't bother me.

PS: Basma, there is a thread in the Ramen Shop about eerie happenings, and I would be curious to hear what you have to say about them. I have no info on the Islamic take on the paranormal. I promise not to mock you. I am only curious.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_v2_01.jpg

[kunshu]

LOL stop saying they loco even if you don't believe in the koran you must atleast know that the koran wasn't made by more than one person:P

and again there were veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyy few scientist

and you can't see a metoer or a comet burn in the sky you only see a star falling thats why they call it a falling star the people thought that it was a falling star

[rimpelcut]

I don't know, do you know? I don't think so.
Yeah but you are not getting the point because you keep repeating futile arguments.
"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs."
this means there is a gravitational shield above our earth taht can turn away radiation and also the shield around the atmosphere gets rid of meteors and comets. :confused
the people weren't that stupid believing it were literly stars falling. you can see the same constalation each night nad see that the "stars" suddenly appear and suddenly dissapear and there are more things that could make them come to the conclusion that there is a protecting roof above earth. the fact that you copy the beliefs of people who say that the quran knew about dna and whatever makes me feel that this is not a serieus debate.
what did you learn from the quran the first time you started reading it?

[Key]

No one knows ok? do you?

[rimpelcut]

Don't post bullshit, ok? your not funny

[DevilB0i]

Don't post bullshit, ok? your not funny
Don't post bullshit, ok? your not funny. STFU your not funny ok?

[rimpelcut]

ok stfu naab your not funny ok?

[hesd]

Submit to death, death of your ambitions and favourite wishes every day and death of your whole body in the end: submit with every fibre of your being, and you will find eternal life. Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin and decay.
But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in.
-CS Lewis in Mere Christianity

[rimpelcut]

the part until the 'look for christ' thing is what buddists do. If you do that you won't have suffering and emotional problems and whatever.
maybe they ment christ as the universal movements.

[neko-sennin]

As far as I can tell, the search for Christ is the origin of as many personal/psychological issues as the fear of death.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/scoot_the_koan/osaka_power_v2_01.jpg

[*Basma*]

Hello...
Excuse my late reply but i have lost someone dear to me last week and things have been a bit messed up... anyway..

did the quran say byzitan empire? and why didn't he make a shorter sentance like: and after 3.5 year they will win?
I was revering to other predictions, the historical predictions where the only ones I didn't read.
But why did he gave the other prophets the responsibility when he knows that they will fail? isn't that pointless and causing more misery?
No you didn't understand me. There is no reason to believe in god because you can find the same things what you mentioned in the end of your post in real life. You think the religion gives those truths. In reality, those truths are because of the laws of nature meaning also man. And it isn't complicated to understand. If you experience the truth you won't have to have a solid belief. You will just know 100 % how things work and no mans words can misguide you. But you have read the quran and only got the knowledge of the basics of conduct. Yes they do give you some strength but don't let you realize that life is simple, there is no living towards some noble goal. If live is simple then every step you take will be without effort. no need to be proud because you are not unhappy. every test is an adventure you look forward to. keeping your neighbours alive by inspiring them to do healthy etc.
Anyway it doesn't matter what people believe or if they are scientists or whatever. find the simple truths and there will be not a moment of unhappyness.

Yeah the Quran says that "Rome" has been defeated... Rome is the Byzitan Empire... About the 3.5 years thing... The Quran says "in a few years" this is the exact translation... The predictions? I still don’t see them as vague... Ill tell you what, if you are interested just let me know which ones that are causing the confusion and I will clear them up :)
Now about the prophets, god sent them for a reason alright? From each nation there was at least one prophet if not more. They were sent with their religion and their holy book and their miracles... Now all this to make people believe which unfortunately is a thing that not all people had done... they were sent so people on judgment day wouldn’t take it as an excuse for not believing... Imagine people going "oh we had no idea that there was a god and we were supposed to worship him” The prophets didn't fail... There were people who followed...

"In reality, those truths are because of the laws of nature meaning also man." you know before Islam came, the laws of nature/man implied that if a person gets a daughter it is a shameful thing and the girl would have to be killed on the spot.. It also implied that people had to worship stones that did them no good because they believed these were the reason for their prosperity the list goes on and on... You might be right common sense does tell us to be kind, patient and proud... To stand up for what we believe in... But The Quran isn’t just that... It deals with all the subjects which concern us as human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship, and law, but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time it provides guidelines for a just society, proper human conduct and an equitable economic system.
On the contrary... if you experience the truth... You’ll have to have a true solid belief. you'll understand how things work and from this understanding comes belief and faith... seriously Islam doesn't tell you "ok just believe".. If only people were that simple.. The prophet peace be upon him said 'seeking knowledge is an obligation for every Muslim man and woman'

By the way.. Who said anything about life being simple... Life is filled with up's and down's.. If life is a battle, then faith is my weapon.. Do you understand what i mean?

Basma, I hate to break this to you, but anything written by human hands is corrupt.
I've won bets more vaguely worded than some of these prophecies.
Again, I'll point out that the quran was niether the first, nor the last book, to which all manner of events can be atributed, and the only thing it tells me with any certainty is that some people might be able to see possible futures, and occasionally they manage to hit on more likely outcomes. After all, if you toss the dice enough times...
I guess the idea of the Universe(s?) having no beginning or ending just doesn't bother me.
Neko-sennin i already said that the quran was sent from god not written by humans.. "Again, I'll point out that the quran was neither the first, nor the last book, to which all manner of events can be attributed" really? Show me a book which all manners of events can be attributed and ill gladly tell you why I don't choose to believe in it but believe in the quran... if I toss the dice enough times? You know the quran was never wrong regarding the predictions that happened and were mentioned in it.. Anyway it's your choice... oh and sure ill check out the eerie happenings thread.. :)

[rimpelcut]

[QUOTE=*Basma*]Hello...
Excuse my late reply but i have lost someone dear to me last week and things have been a bit messed up... anyway..



Yeah the Quran says that "Rome" has been defeated... Rome is the Byzitan Empire... About the 3.5 years thing... The Quran says "in a few years" this is the exact translation... The predictions? I still don’t see them as vague... Ill tell you what, if you are interested just let me know which ones that are causing the confusion and I will clear them up :)
Now about the prophets, god sent them for a reason alright? From each nation there was at least one prophet if not more. They were sent with their religion and their holy book and their miracles... Now all this to make people believe which unfortunately is a thing that not all people had done... they were sent so people on judgment day wouldn’t take it as an excuse for not believing... Imagine people going "oh we had no idea that there was a god and we were supposed to worship him” The prophets didn't fail... There were people who followed...

"In reality, those truths are because of the laws of nature meaning also man." you know before Islam came, the laws of nature/man implied that if a person gets a daughter it is a shameful thing and the girl would have to be killed on the spot.. It also implied that people had to worship stones that did them no good because they believed these were the reason for their prosperity the list goes on and on... You might be right common sense does tell us to be kind, patient and proud... To stand up for what we believe in... But The Quran isn’t just that... It deals with all the subjects which concern us as human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship, and law, but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time it provides guidelines for a just society, proper human conduct and an equitable economic system.
On the contrary... if you experience the truth... You’ll have to have a true solid belief. you'll understand how things work and from this understanding comes belief and faith... seriously Islam doesn't tell you "ok just believe".. If only people were that simple.. The prophet peace be upon him said 'seeking knowledge is an obligation for every Muslim man and woman'

By the way.. Who said anything about life being simple... Life is filled with up's and down's.. If life is a battle, then faith is my weapon.. Do you understand what i mean?

QUOTE]

You did not get my argument. I read on the site that you posted that the quran was written simple so that all people could understand it. Also the quran allong with the prophets are supposed to show that god exists. Now why isn't a exact date given? 216 days?
Also in the sutas there is no referance that it is a prediction what the people now say it was. They say it has predicted this and that but the sutas failed to explain that the prediction was indeed "that" prediction. When you look at it like that one of the predictions would be interpreted as: in the future other means of transportation will exist. wow, that is some prediction. I have already posted few predictions so you can explain to me why you where convinced about for example that dna is predicted.
Also I get a scary picture of your god: he makes man, gives him highly doubtable proof of his existence, then lets the mayority pay on judgement day. Also his efforts to help people day to day contradict with him testing you for when you die.

"you know before Islam came, the laws of nature/man implied that if a person gets a daughter it "
I meant the law of nature, which also concerns man. I'm not talking about the beliefs of people.

"wisdom,doctrine..."
I don't know precisely what is said in the quran about those things but what I do know is that it all revolves around humans. It's a book about a new way of living for man and that way in the end will be to balance things out with nature as a big part in it because that is our reality.

"On the contrary... if you experience the truth... You’ll have to have a true solid belief. you'll understand how things work and from this understanding comes belief and faith... seriously Islam doesn't tell you "ok just believe".. If only people were that simple.. The prophet peace be upon him said 'seeking knowledge is an obligation for every Muslim man and woman'

By the way.. Who said anything about life being simple... Life is filled with up's and down's.. If life is a battle, then faith is my weapon.. Do you understand what i mean? "
You can't find the truth with belief and when you find the truth you don't need belief because the truth is out there in the open. from understanding comes belief and faith? no, this is what happens when people take a certain observation as a fact that the rest is also correct. It's quite childish really. If there was no one that told about things you would understand stuff quicker because you don't have the reliance on books to give you the next revelation. You are not waiting to find someone that gives you the answer. Also you would think everything from a fresh start: when a person has these beliefs/science/facts/religion he has difficulty understanding because he is basing his thought on those rules instead of finding what the rules are for himself.

"seeking knowledge is a must..."
So mohammed said: don't believe, don't have faith.

What do you mean with ups and downs? your personal view of the matters or the fact that sometimes you get a hurricane and you have to rebuilt your house? I think you meant the latter what would mean that you are fighting your own beliefs that things are scary and "bad" with beliefs that all will be well and that it's not scary and not bad, all will be fine. Instead you could find out the truth, the nature of things and make up your mind if that experience is giving the down or that the experience has nothing to do with downs.

[Iruka-Senpai]

Why do I believe in God? I believe in God simply because I think there is one.I read what the Bible says and take it as truth. I look up its credibility and find it to be possible. To me, asking that question is like asking why I need to drink water. I just do.

[rimpelcut]

but I don't
from your post I could make out that you believe in the bible because it has truth and therefore the rest makes sense to because it is woven together with those truths.
You see it as possible but it isn't proof. anything is possible outside the known and that finding it possible is not a good enough reason to believe in god or see it as proof or truth.

[Kin]

I couldn't choose, I was born in Belgium, and Im a girl, I went to a Catholisme school for girls. I had to believe in God. But since I live here, I lost it, Im free now at a normal school in Holland.

[Botzu]

I believe in a God because to think that their is nothing out their greater then ourselves is naive. plus i dont believe that we just appeared out of nowhere. To mark our existence as a coincidence is just depressive and makes all our lives meaningless. theirs gotta be a purpose for us being here right?

[Iruka-Senpai]

I believe in a God because to think that their is nothing out their greater then ourselves is naive. plus i dont believe that we just appeared out of nowhere. To mark our existence as a coincidence is just depressive and makes all our lives meaningless. theirs gotta be a purpose for us being here right?
I think that way too.:amuse

[rimpelcut]

I believe in a God because to think that their is nothing out their greater then ourselves is naive. plus i dont believe that we just appeared out of nowhere. To mark our existence as a coincidence is just depressive and makes all our lives meaningless. theirs gotta be a purpose for us being here right?

Believing that there is something less great or more great is naive.
you believe that we didn't come from nowhere because you think that there has to be a creator right?
Seeing life as dipressing if there is no meaning is naive because you think you are greater then everything else.(see first sentance).
That purpose is in nature just like the purpose of a atom is meaningfull to us we are meaningfull to them.

[Iruka-Senpai]

I sort of agree with him but I don't think we should pretend to believe in God just to make our lives happier.

[rimpelcut]

then why do you believe in god?

[Rice Ball]

I'm not sure (like most people i guess)

More of a scientist, but it had to start somewhere right so who knows? not me etc, also wonder if we really do get to learn some of these answers after death.

I'll not change the topic :p

[rimpelcut]

Well I don't have a clue what you just said :thumbs

[Rice Ball]

Well I don't have a clue what you just said :thumbs

I seem to get that more and more, i guess it being 1:35am and newyears day doesn't help :)

[Rice Ball]

Well what i ment was-

Do i Believe in God- No i guess i don't, i'm not a christian and believe in evolution not Adam and Eve etc :D But what i was trying to say, i don't know enough too really answer that question due to lack of faith.

[rimpelcut]

Well if you don't believe in god I guess you can't answer my question.

[skunkworks]

then why do you believe in god?

I've read some Jewish philosophy saying that gd wanted to create a physical plane and beings who could seek him out without being able to hear or see him but rather perceive with the mind.

[Rice Ball]

Well if you don't believe in god I guess you can't answer my question.

But i did :)

[Paracetamol Boy]

Because I can.

[darkneshieca_NejiFan]

I can't even answer it. I believe in Him 'coz I believe in what I believe in. For me he's as real as when you say you've got a dad whom you never saw who passed away. It's really hard to explain when you know that you believe in Him and don't know why. It's basically called "faith".

Are u even allowed to watch naruto? I mean its not very religious!
Maybe u can be "halfchristian" and still go to heaven.

Well, yeah. Why not. The priests don't give rules on what to watch and what not to watch. In our religion, its okay. We're given free will and that's what makes it good.

[rimpelcut]

I've read some Jewish philosophy saying that gd wanted to create a physical plane and beings who could seek him out without being able to hear or see him but rather perceive with the mind.

Hhmm can't arrgue with that.
why is that important to you?

[Paracetamol Boy]

Because believing the "truth" is better than believing lies?

btw, I'd very much like to remove the quotation marks from aforementioned truth.

[Raistlin-sama]

I believe in some kind of god, because I doubt such a complex universe, with physics based on mathematics, would be created randomly. Why does such mathematical/logical laws exists? Some matter is pressured together and blows up. Well that's fine, but why do it create a universe based on logic and mathematical structures? If we leave some atoms alone, they are not suddenly going to turn into a supercomputer, now are they? This is basically why I believe there is some kind of "god".

[mr_shadow]

I belive in God, and other supernatural beings, becouse i do not belive humans are the most advanced species in the universe.

I mean, to an ant a human would be a "god". We live for hundreds of times their lifespan, so from their point of view we may appear to be immortal. We also have the ability to alter the landscape to our liking, and if we feel like it, we can wipe out the ants entire world with nuclear weapons. We also communicate in a language thats 100% impossible for the ant to understand

So if the universe is as big as the science-dudes make it out to be, why cant there be a species out there whos so advanced that humanity would seem like ants by comparison?

Jave/God/Allah (their all the same guy) is in my opinion a being made entirely of psycic energy, thats so big he encompasses the entire universe like some friggin ameba.

[vitruvianwoman]

here is a view of theism presented in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World which the character Mustapha Mond says:

"As if one believed anything by instinct! One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them. Finding bad reasons for what one believes for other bad reasons—that’s philosophy. People believe in God because they’ve been conditioned to believe in God"

I don't think this is entirely true but i think to a certain extent the reason people believe in god is because of some sort of "conditioning."

I'm agnostic and the reason i am unsure about the presence of God is because my parents are lapsed catholics and do not talk about God so as child i never really was taught to believe in God, and also i have been taught not to form beliefs/opinions on faith without evidence or anything, and while some people may find evidence in their lives that would suggest a divine influence (and i think it's great for them) i am still on the fence. So i would say i do not believe one way or the other basically because of my conditioning.

[rimpelcut]

But i did :)

Well could you explain it again because I didn't get it.

I believe in some kind of god, because I doubt such a complex universe, with physics based on mathematics, would be created randomly. Why does such mathematical/logical laws exists? Some matter is pressured together and blows up. Well that's fine, but why do it create a universe based on logic and mathematical structures? If we leave some atoms alone, they are not suddenly going to turn into a supercomputer, now are they? This is basically why I believe there is some kind of "god".

those complex mathimatics are complex because they have multiple factors in them. But the basics are basic and form more complex things. It has logic because there are two opposites that are realtive to eachother. This relativity creates balance. Our minds sees the relativity and that is where logic comes from. Those atoms you speak about created a supercomputer, you. Also why a god? because there should be a creator. Why a creator? I mean if there was some basic thing that started the complex universe it doesn't have to be some god figure. Also if god is almighty who made him, he exists doesn't he? this question go's on and on until you think of something simple and that is that somthing can't come from nothing so something is the only thing that exists. Therefore it might as well be a few mathimatical driven realities.

[rimpelcut]

Because believing the "truth" is better than believing lies?

btw, I'd very much like to remove the quotation marks from aforementioned truth.

go right ahead. Also I asked skunkworks why he found that philosophy to be try or in other words important.

[margodscha]

i do not believe in god and i believe in god. (hum... crazy)

it's this sort of thing, that i don't know he really exists. my mother is very religious. i'm not. but i want to believe.:oh maybe someday. ^-^

[rimpelcut]

here is a view of theism presented in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World which the character Mustapha Mond says:

"As if one believed anything by instinct! One believes things because one has been conditioned to believe them. Finding bad reasons for what one believes for other bad reasons—that’s philosophy. People believe in God because they’ve been conditioned to believe in God"

I don't think this is entirely true but i think to a certain extent the reason people believe in god is because of some sort of "conditioning."

I'm agnostic and the reason i am unsure about the presence of God is because my parents are lapsed catholics and do not talk about God so as child i never really was taught to believe in God, and also i have been taught not to form beliefs/opinions on faith without evidence or anything, and while some people may find evidence in their lives that would suggest a divine influence (and i think it's great for them) i am still on the fence. So i would say i do not believe one way or the other basically because of my conditioning.

you will always be conditioned. But there is a difference in beeing conditioned by the world or by people.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

I'm a Baptist born again Christian, and I sure as hell believe in God. For all you who believe in Evolution, here's a word or two for ya: When you see a car, do you think it evolved from a sparkplug? My point exactly. Everything has a designer.

Humans were designed by God.

[thecucchi]

I belive in god because i think there is proof that god is there if some one could prove with out a question that he isn't real then i wouldn't belive in him

[rimpelcut]

@chaos sayajin, So this god made also animals, who are like humans, complex?
and he also made plants and bacteria that are complex and are designed? and he also created the smallest living things that are simply a few molecules? So then those molecules where made with difference in potential, one atracting the other? and they came from a area in the center part of the galaxy and god made all of that. He was the creator. WRONG!
god created humans.
loco: But who created god?
baptist: god is almighty and lives infinitely.
loco: ok but who created god?
baptist: god is not created he simply is.
loco: Well if god simply is why can't humans simply be?

@thecucchi. You must have been mistaken, there is no proof.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

@loco: God created the entire Universe and everything within it. God has always been there, and he always will be.

[rimpelcut]

ok but you missed the point,read the end of the story

[rimpelcut]

you see I'm just trying to have a normal conversation but everytime It gets stuck because people stop asking questions and just freez up and start "repeating lines out of the koran".

[chuggachugga]

I put this in another thread already so I'll just copy and paste it here because it seems to fit this thread more.



I, myself am an atheist but I am understanding of people who believe in God. I have to say that believing in God is actually a wonderful thing. I used to be a believer in God (but didn't have a religion) but about a year I stopped believing in God because I start to realise all these bad things in the world and it just made me think that if there was a God (this seemingly all powerful being) will change the world and make it fair. I guess I just started losing faith. However, during this time I started to think more and more about why I believed in God and came to certain conclusions.

Firstly, I realise that believing in God is what gives people hope. Hope is what makes us go on because if we have hope we can always dream about a better tomorrow. Without hope, there is no reason to live.

However, I also realise that hope is not the only reason I believed in God. I also believe because I was scared that if I didn't believe in God then the devil will come hurt me like in Exorcist (hehe stupid I know). I also thought that if I didn't believe then I would go to hell. I guess this fear is what ultimately keep people to continue believing.

This does not specifically apply to me but people believe in God because of influence from society. Since there are so many believers it kind of makes people think that maybe they are right since everyone else seems to think there is a God. Also, parents who already have a religion will try to teach their children about their religion so they will grow up thinking that these religions are correct (I'm just saying. Please don't get offended).

Also, another reason for why people believe in God or why the concept of God is created is because it helps maintain society's morals. What else could be better than telling people that if you commit a crime then God will punish you and make you suffer. Honestly in my opinion, God is the best made up character anyone could ever make. What better way to scare people than to tell people this all powerful invincible being is here to punish you because He knows all the bad things you've done. To kind of back this up, in the Elizabethan time, people were told that God will punish people who try to escape out of their place in the caste system because the kings do not want people to assassinate them and take their position. If you think about it, what chaos would that have cause if kings constantly die once they got their position as king.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that I totally understand why people believe in God and I think it is a wonderful thing because without people believing in God then there will be chaos and no meaning to life. The reason why I don't believe in God is because I think humans made God to make life easier. What I mean by easier is that sometimes when things don't go your way you can just blame God for it like how I blamed God for the world being corrupted. Seriously, it is just so easy to live in self pity by saying that God hates me that's why my life sucks. I have to admit that was me a while back. And because it is the "easier" way out, I chose not to believe because I don't want to take the easy road. I don't want to blame other people (or God in this case) for my own actions or what life has in store for me. I rather live life as it is and take life's obstacles the hard way.

P.S I hope I didn't offend people by saying that humans created God. This is strictly my opinion on the subject and my own experiences. So sorry if I offended anyone.

[Asmodeus]

Ahhh, this should go over well. Props for starting this thread, loco.

My faith in God began when I was a small child, who was shown and told by his parents of the existence of an all-powerful being who created the universe, and who created evey one of us. I was told that he is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. Over the course of my life, I have accepted this. Why is that?

As someone here already posted, it does give comfort. Comfort that this life isn't the end, comfort that there is someone who will always love you. Comfort that the pure and good of heart will be rewarded, and comfort that the scum of the Earth will suffer eternally (okay, that's kind of sadistic, but it is true). Comfort that we know why we're here, comfort that we know why everything is like it is. Comfort maybe be the #1 reason religion has existed since man has.

My reasons, however, extend beyond such cosmetic measures. Or, in a way, they don't. I feel, in my soul, in my core, the presence of the one we call God. The feeling of wholeness, of knowing someone is there, trying to help you along your way, is indeed comforting, and gives a sense of purpose and direction. My thoughts and ideas are clarified when I pray, and I feel as if divine intervention is helping to guide my thoughts. It gives me courage and confidence.

I guess I kind of contradicted myself. Religion produces comfort more than anything else. The feeling of the next life, of living a good life to help others, defies all logic and produces a feeling unmatched in general human psyche. The feeling of God watching over you, of being connected with your creator and caretaker, is indescribable, which is the very reason it's so hard to discuss or debate: The feeling is one you can recieve, but never describe.

Long enough, eh?

[rimpelcut]

nice.
. hope is like a ow I hope this goes right thing, sort of like luck. Or it is something like ow everything bad going to happen isn't because of god. so they get hope but not assurence. Assurence probable happens when you start questioning about the whole god thing but because you are still in the state of hope that protects you from pain you start looking for logic that can proof that god exists even if it's shallow proof.

Without god there can still be stability and meaning to life. The meaning will not be in the perpective of an ego and the stability will not be in the same society as we have now, therefore the way we live now causes the chaos and the inability to find meaning to life.

[mr_shadow]

1: This thread speaks of God as a single indevidual, so i assume it is referring the god that fathered Jesus. But the question can be applied to all religions who belive in higher entities. Maybe the title could have been "Why do you belive in god(s)?"

2: Reguarding the statement that God was never created, i ask: when did God create the universe? There are two possible answers, each with a problem:

answer A: God created the universe immidiately after his own creation. This has the problem of God having to be created from something

answer B: God existed for an infinate time before the creation of the universe, and then one day just decided to make the world. This has the problem that...what would he have spent infinity with prior to making the universe? Since nothing existed exept himself, there would have been nothing else to occupy his thougts, which would have made the creation of the universe his top priority from the start. WHich brings us back to answer A :P

[rimpelcut]

Ahhh, this should go over well. Props for starting this thread, loco.

My faith in God began when I was a small child, who was shown and told by his parents of the existence of an all-powerful being who created the universe, and who created evey one of us. I was told that he is all knowing, all psyche. The feeling of God watching over you, of being connected with your creator and caretaker, is indescribable, which is the very reason it's so hard to discuss or debate: The feeling is one you can recieve, but never describe.

Long enough, eh?

The thought struck me just know that what you are describing is exact the same feelings people have that are regarded as populair in a groep. A sense of importance to there actions, doing good, beeing good only with god you extend this idea to the hole human race and excistence itself, perfect for people that start philosophizing.
Also I had some thought about comfort. What is pain and fear and pleasure?
When A child sees a scary movie for the first time he gets a image of displeasure. He starts to fear that displeasure and with that creating what he didn't want to have. Then he gets the memory that fear is asosciated with something scary but the reason why something is scary eludes him.
He seeks comfort from that in things that are equal to the concept of monsters.
Now what I didn't realize as a child but do now is that pain or displeasure is nothing but muscle contraction and you do it on your own or you learn it by habit from a very young age. When you get excitement it is the precursor of fear. I don't understand quite how people get this illusion of good and bad but I think it is because they already learn about it before they experience emotions. You face a problem, it get's in your way and this automatically triggers you into thinking this is a pain, I don't like it and you start to hate it and never overcoming it. Or you face a problem and don't make anything of it and just think how to go around it. The difference is that with one you already iddentify the problem as something important because you see it as a problem and that importance greates greed witch makes you hate the problem because it denies you from pleasure. The reason you thought of it as a problem is because either you have tried and failed and became greedy or something else made the solving of the problem really important and it made you greedy. You will get problems all the time and half of them mean nothing to you only when you bring concept like difficult into thought. That is why adults often find it truly difficult to do challenging things, stressing etc, while there is no need.
This simple illusion of pain and pleasure slows you down so much and narrows your life and your perspective of life that you become a slave to it.
You suffer when there is unfinished bissnes to do.

[rimpelcut]

1: This thread speaks of God as a single indevidual, so i assume it is referring the god that fathered Jesus. But the question can be applied to all religions who belive in higher entities. Maybe the title could have been "Why do you belive in god(s)?"

2: Reguarding the statement that God was never created, i ask: when did God create the universe? There are two possible answers, each with a problem:

answer A: God created the universe immidiately after his own creation. This has the problem of God having to be created from something

answer B: God existed for an infinate time before the creation of the universe, and then one day just decided to make the world. This has the problem that...what would he have spent infinity with prior to making the universe? Since nothing existed exept himself, there would have been nothing else to occupy his thougts, which would have made the creation of the universe his top priority from the start. WHich brings us back to answer A :P

How can I change the title to god(s)?
I don't get what you are trying to say, answer a and answer b are the same only with one there is more time between the creation of the universe.
As for who created god I have an answer but you won't like it: something (god, universe) can't be created out of nothing and something can't become nothing so existence is only thing that there is.

[RockLee]

Because I can't understand everything, try as I might. For what I don't understand, it's pretty much faith based. For what humans don't understand fully, it's faith based.

When humans collectively understand everything ever, then God will die.

[mr_shadow]

What i meant was that when Christians/Muslims/Jews are presented with the question of who created God, they tend to respond that "God has always existed", which brings us to problem B.

[rimpelcut]

Because I can't understand everything, try as I might. For what I don't understand, it's pretty much faith based. For what humans don't understand fully, it's faith based.

When humans collectively understand everything ever, then God will die.

I don't get the faith part. People can imagine things they don't understand but they don't believe their imaginations or take them serious because the imagination lacks fullness or truth whitch you can only get when you get more facts.

[rimpelcut]

What i meant was that when Christians/Muslims/Jews are presented with the question of who created God, they tend to respond that "God has always existed", which brings us to problem B.

Haha no it doesn't, they meant that there is no one before god not that he existed for a long time before creating.. was it a joke? hahaha didn't get that one but uh what I said in the first line.

[Raistlin-sama]

The concept of time, originates from what we refer to as "god". It therefore makes no sense to ask how he/she/it was created, since time does not exist for god, because time is a part of god (which means that he is an existence which has "always" been there, although always is not accurate, since, as I just explained, time does not exist for god). This is obviously not the absolute truth, but something that I believe.

[rimpelcut]

but who created time or god or whatever.

god is infinite and is everything right? A object itself is a object because of the attributes it has. If god has the same attributes as the entire universe it cannot be seperate. I mean two atributes that make up a toolbox and make up god could not be so therefore god is the universe.

[skunkworks]

but who created time or god or whatever.

god is infinite and is everything right? A object itself is a object because of the attributes it has. If god has the same attributes as the entire universe it cannot be seperate. I mean two atributes that make up a toolbox and make up god could not be so therefore god is the universe.

I just read a little article regarding that question. It seems like a cop-out but here goes. Basically gd introduced the idea of creation, that something can be created out of nothing. There were essentially no "beginnings" before gd created the first.

[Raistlin-sama]

but who created time or god or whatever.

This question makes no sense. god created time, and if there is no time there is no meaning in asking who created god, because they was no point where he did not exist, as a matter of fact there was no such things as "points in time".
god is infinite and is everything right? A object itself is a object because of the attributes it has. If god has the same attributes as the entire universe it cannot be seperate. I mean two atributes that make up a toolbox and make up god could not be so therefore god is the universe.

But god does not have to be the universe, god could be a separate entity. He sparkled the universe, and made the big bang come through, created the laws of nature etc, and the concept of time. If he really is an omnipotent being, you can say that god is "everywhere", but that does not make him equal with the universe itself.

[rimpelcut]

This question makes no sense. god created time, and if there is no time there is no meaning in asking who created god, because they was no point where he did not exist, as a matter of fact there was no such things as "points in time".

But god does not have to be the universe, god could be a separate entity. He sparkled the universe, and made the big bang come through, created the laws of nature etc, and the concept of time. If he really is an omnipotent being, you can say that god is "everywhere", but that does not make him equal with the universe itself.

Huh how can god create time if without time god could not create time?

you didn't get the point I think. I was talking about the notion that god is everything. God is the same as a bottle and the same as the universe and as time. But a+b=C connot also be a+b=god except if god is the same as the universe and everything in it. If he where an outside seperate beeing he could not be everything that the universe is unless it is another universe. Do you understand what I mean? This logic only applies to the notion that god is made out of everything the universe is made of like for instance if you say god created man in his own image with all his powers.
So we could say that god is a magician with powers or nothing at all.

@skunkworks, that is a brilliant way of twisting things. When I thought about beginnings I got the same thought that we always think in terms of who created what. I gave the reason for that not god but nature that always has a action and then reaction. But when you look at the begging it is inloggical to say that something came from nothing without a creator and That article says the same thing: there is no creator, god was the first and I agree. But with that same concept you could say: the universe was the only beginning and it created man and the thought of beginnings.

[therealultimatepower]

WHy couldn't the random particles that probably sparked the Big Bang just have easy have "just existed?" That seems far more believable than some higher being getting bored and somehow figure out how to create a whole universe by himself. God is just the lazy explanation for everything.

[rimpelcut]

thats what I thought

[Razgriez]

I believed in god when I was younger simply because I was forced to church every sunday and my parents drilled the idea of his existance into my childish and simplistic ideals of the world.

My grandparents were hardcore christians and also forced the idea down my throat and I believed them.

It wasnt until I was older I decided to question his existance and measure up logically how much bullshit the bible is and illogical it sounds and how those who support it sound overwhelmingly illogical as well.

[rimpelcut]

hehehe, the bible has some truth in it. But it is a deeper meaning that you are probable better of finding out in life or eastern religions.

[Kush P]

Thats true because the bible had very spiritual parts in it and I think the concept of spirituality started in the East. Most of them I think are trying to learn how to relate that to what they percieve as facts and reality.

[rimpelcut]

what is written in the bible is fine but funny enough, people take it to literly. Probable for social and political gain and use.

[Razgriez]

what is written in the bible is fine but funny enough, people take it to literly. Probable for social and political gain and use.
Arent you suppose to take the Bible for fact though?

It is after all the word of god and its word should be never touched and considered truth.

[rimpelcut]

That is debatable. You don't know what jezus wanted, if there was a god etc. In eastern religions you have tales about gods and even more fantasy full then the bibles miracles but most people understand that it is not about if the god exists. It doesn't matter why. The important question is how. What is the truth between the lines like there is truth between the actions in life.
Therefore if the bible says that you have to follow god etc they either meant you have to follow the laws of life and nature or the whole bible is meant as a teaching tool for the ordinary man. It is known that the kings and noble had all the higher understanding of life, nature etc and maybe this was like a doctrine so the people would get the same morals and values.

[Razgriez]

That is debatable. You don't know what jezus wanted, if there was a god etc. In eastern religions you have tales about gods and even more fantasy full then the bibles miracles but most people understand that it is not about if the god exists. It doesn't matter why. The important question is how. What is the truth between the lines like there is truth between the actions in life.
Therefore if the bible says that you have to follow god etc they either meant you have to follow the laws of life and nature or the whole bible is meant as a teaching tool for the ordinary man. It is known that the kings and noble had all the higher understanding of life, nature etc and maybe this was like a doctrine so the people would get the same morals and values.
I dont see why its debatable unless its to keep you thinking that this religion is right because quite frankly whats in the bible is some crazy crap.

The Bible is suppose to be the word of god and what god says is absolute truth so why not take it as fact?

This is why I seriously hate the religion. So many damn loop holes.

[rimpelcut]

no what I was trying to tell you is that if you take it literly then yes it is the word of god. If you look at the meaning behind the book or what god might represent, for instance the force that drives everything around us, then you should not take the word literly. So maybe it wasn't intended to take literly or maybe it was. that is debatable.

[Razgriez]

no what I was trying to tell you is that if you take it literly then yes it is the word of god. If you look at the meaning behind the book or what god might represent, for instance the force that drives everything around us, then you should not take the word literly. So maybe it wasn't intended to take literly or maybe it was. that is debatable.
That would then just disprove the religion more. Its suppose to be as the word of god since it IS the word of god. Your suppose to take the meaning behind the book as well and you get it by taking it literally.

What your saying is how I look at the book. I consider it total fictional bullshit but some of the meanings behind some of the stories teach very good morals and people should adopt a few of them. Its a good inspiration, but I dont believe that its fact.

[skunkworks]

Arent you suppose to take the Bible for fact though?

It is after all the word of god and its word should be never touched and considered truth.

I know that the Hebrew Bible is to be taken both literally and figuratively. From what I understand at times the Torah is supposed to be cryptic, which is also why it has syntax errors, and grammatical anomalies.

[Razgriez]

I know that the Hebrew Bible is to be taken both literally and figuratively. From what I understand at times the Torah is supposed to be cryptic, which is also why it has syntax errors, and grammatical anomalies.
Well uh...

I dont mean if its written correctly I mean by what it says.

The Bible teaches you that god is practically everything.
The universe was created in 6 days(people debate how long those 6 days were -_-)
Humans are the only creatures with free will.(totall bullshit, my cat has free will and he fucking expresses it every damn day!)
Humans were created in god's image.
Jesus Christ was crucified to forgive man's sins.(this is debated)
God's word is law. Defy it and you will be cast into the firey pits of hell unless you "beg" for forgiveness.

[skunkworks]

Well uh...

I dont mean if its written correctly I mean by what it says.

The Bible teaches you that god is practically everything.
The universe was created in 6 days(people debate how long those 6 days were -_-)

This is essentially what the Hebrew Bible says, and what most Jews believe.

Humans are the only creatures with free will.(totall bullshit, my cat has free will and he fucking expresses it every damn day!)
Humans were created in god's image.
Jesus Christ was crucified to forgive man's sins.(this is debated)
God's word is law. Defy it and you will be cast into the firey pits of hell unless you "beg" for forgiveness.

The whole Jesus part is pretty easy to refute.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=70098

About hell, well, there isn't one really. The firey pits of lava, and a red horned man-goat with a pitchfork is a Christian idea. The Hebrew Bible doesn't go into much detail when it comes to the afterlife. The concern lies in the earthly rewards and punishments. In Judaism, gd's laws were ment to elevate the mundane. Almost any person could follow the Torah if they wanted to.

[Razgriez]

"Firey pits of hell" is a figure of speech.

Really all hell is is the total absense of god and I prefer it that way.

[rimpelcut]

That would then just disprove the religion more. Its suppose to be as the word of god since it IS the word of god. Your suppose to take the meaning behind the book as well and you get it by taking it literally.

What your saying is how I look at the book. I consider it total fictional bullshit but some of the meanings behind some of the stories teach very good morals and people should adopt a few of them. Its a good inspiration, but I dont believe that its fact.

The proof that says it is the word of god comes from the profets. They might see god in a different perspective then the people after them did. They might have written the book with a deeper meaning behind the text that is written in it and then said it is the word of god but meant it in a different way. After that people took it literly and because of that the book should be read literly.
It could have another meaning behind it in the text because you do not compare the book to reality but you compare reality to the book.
But it might as well be that the profet meant that the book is the word of god and that that means that the book should be read like a doctrine for reality.

[rimpelcut]

he skunk could ya reply to what I said on the previous page?

[Razgriez]

The proof that says it is the word of god comes from the profets. They might see god in a different perspective then the people after them did. They might have written the book with a deeper meaning behind the text that is written in it and then said it is the word of god but meant it in a different way. After that people took it literly and because of that the book should be read literly.
It could have another meaning behind it in the text because you do not compare the book to reality but you compare reality to the book.
But it might as well be that the profet meant that the book is the word of god and that that means that the book should be read like a doctrine for reality.
Still both sides support my argument against that religion is actually real and this is why Im tyring to point out.

You look at it literally and you'll be like wtf? Most of thats total bullshit and theres far too much evidence proving that a lot of its fake and near impossible and some of the things it teaches are just down right horrible.

If you just look at the meaning of the book and not take the stories literally you can practically do that to any fictional story because a lot of them all have meanings or morals to learn about the world and reality.
There would be just far less facts supporting the idea of a god existing as well since there would be technically no factual documents to support that god exists since the text of teachings arent suppose to be taken literally.

[skunkworks]

he skunk could ya reply to what I said on the previous page?

Which part? Your reply to me, or just one of your posts?

[rimpelcut]

yeah only I never read a fictional book that went so deep into life,the universe and everything like religious books.
I agree with you. The biggest proof of religion is that there was a profet that existed and said he had received the word of god.

[rimpelcut]

Which part? Your reply to me, or just one of your posts?

yeah my reply to you, though I read what you said again and now my reply would be: God is the creator of beginnings. But this concept is made because they need an explanation for why there is existence, "something" in general. Whitch doesn't make sense because god still is something and should have a creator. But they say that he just exists and that is exactly what the problem is. They can't accept that something exists simply because it is either that or nothing which brings us back to who created.
what do you think?

[skunkworks]

yeah my reply to you, though I read what you said again and now my reply would be: God is the creator of beginnings. But this concept is made because they need an explanation for why there is existence, "something" in general. Whitch doesn't make sense because god still is something and should have a creator. But they say that he just exists and that is exactly what the problem is. They can't accept that something exists simply because it is either that or nothing which brings us back to who created.
what do you think?

I think I get what you're saying, but it comes down to the view you want to take. You could say that gd always existed, there's no proof of that, but it's a philosophy people take.

[rimpelcut]

that is true. If you got what I'm saying then you would agree there is no difference between just god or just universe.
Some scientifical guy who became religious in search of truth said that it doesn't matter in which you believe. Probable because living has nothing to do with it.

When you bother others with your philosophy you do harm because there is no difference between ones views or the others when it comes to what has to be done for the world to go around.

[Kush P]

Yea thats true...We always tend to seperate things rather than linking them together...Wouldnt be amazing if scientists took interest and observe spirituality and mysticism rather than stubbornly always proving which side can prove to be the most reliable source of knowledge?

[rimpelcut]

well they try. I guess they are just stupid or something. Maybe they don't stop to think of the bigger picture but just wait on the next idea to pop into their heads like a bad writer that spends the whole day "thinking". They need to do it like einstein did.

[Ecnafoo]

After a while i think you just stand back and look at your life and ask"how the F did i make it outta there?" or "I could have died but im still kickin". All the miracles in my life make me belive in god.

[rimpelcut]

what do you mean?

[skunkworks]

Yea thats true...We always tend to seperate things rather than linking them together...Wouldnt be amazing if scientists took interest and observe spirituality and mysticism rather than stubbornly always proving which side can prove to be the most reliable source of knowledge?

Seriously. We need to find a balance between science and spirituality.

[rimpelcut]

People are saying it for ages, if you want to know the world you need to know yourself.

[Mizoguchi]

I don't realy feel religious, but I do like chair, and lamp....and rug.

[heavy_rasengan]

This is essentially what the Hebrew Bible says, and what most Jews believe.



The whole Jesus part is pretty easy to refute.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=70098

About hell, well, there isn't one really. The firey pits of lava, and a red horned man-goat with a pitchfork is a Christian idea. The Hebrew Bible doesn't go into much detail when it comes to the afterlife. The concern lies in the earthly rewards and punishments. In Judaism, gd's laws were ment to elevate the mundane. Almost any person could follow the Torah if they wanted to.

I heard that no one can convert to Judaism because jewish people are born wit abrahamic blood or something, i dont remember properly but is this true?

[Vicious ♥]

I don't , I used to get beaten up in the mosque by the bigger kids and the imams. fuckers, I'm going to shoot them all one day.

[MartialHorror]

Because I don't see how science can work without a God.

This doesn't necessarily mean God as in the Christian God, but a higher power I should say.

Now, I am a Christian, and believe Christianity is the word of God. But I believe God has everything happen for a reason, like the invention of Hinduism, Bhuddism, Islam, ect. I believe every Religion is a part of God, but Christianity is the path I have chosen.

I believe God is nowhere yet everyware. I believe he isn't really a physical being, but is inside of everything and everyone.

[waster]

AOA
i believe in Allah and i have unlimited of reasons for that

if u want to know them log on to www.islam-guide.com

there are solid proofs there

[destroy_musick]

i chose to believe in god when i felt it

[sasuke_limays]

i also believe Allah....
someone that not believe Allah maybe sometimes they will regret it....

[Orangefucker]

Im an atheïst religion is just like a fairy tale

[Khemical]

I don't anymore, but I used to. Growing up as a kid and being in a religious family doesn't really give you much of an option, you're basically forced to believe and told that it's right, everything else is wrong. After getting to a reasonable age I drifted off for my own belief/thoughts.

It greatly annoys me how Christian parents basically force their kids to believe. They grow up and are forced to go to church, have their parents pound into their heads that the Bible is right, everything is wrong and if they don't follow they will go to Hell. So yeah, pretty much the point of the post wasn't so much why I choose to believe in God, but how I think it's crazy that kids in Christian families have little to no choice but to believe in God, for all the wrong reasons might I add. (doesn't apply to all Christian families of course)

[Glaciale]

I don't have a religion, although I was christened at birth, but my family have never been religious, I sometimes pray if I'm in a bad situation, out of desperation I guess. I believe in like Guardian Angels and that there's an after life and stuff but not sure what's behind it all.

Is this spamming..?

[MartialHorror]

lol, most Christian families don't force down their beliefs on their sons throat.

At least, every one I've seen. Catholicism seems to be different though(they are Christians too but are more political). It seems to me the heaviest attackers of Christianity turn out to have been raised Roman Catholic.

The Grandparents raised my Dad Mormon, yet didn't force him. Their wasnt any argument when he left that Church. My family was sort of Christian, but not practicing Christians. My parents became more devout after me.

Now, look at it from the Christians POV though. They are afraid their kids would go to hell. Can you really blame them? On the flip side, forcing it down their throats usually does the complete opposite. I will tell my kid(assuming I have one) my views and why I believe them, pray for him and hope he makes the right choice, but not force him too.

If I recall, the Bible even says not to do that. The best way to bring people to Christ is act like a Christian is supposed to be.

[Kaiox]

Personally, I don't believe in God, I've never felt the support that religion gives people. Sure I might close my eyes and hope for something but that is simply a habit. so If I'm watching a game of Soccer, and my team is trying to score, I might do the whole fervent hoping that I do, but that is it.

I have no problem with religious people though. If they belive in God, they are entitled to their own beleifs. As long as they don't try to force it down my throat or anyone else's for that matter. Like a person I know is Athiest and he tries to get other people to become Athiests. I dislike that. If someone is christian or Pagan or Muslim or Jewish or Bhuddist or Hindu or whatever, a religion is a religion is a religion and that is that.

[Bass]

lol, most Christian families don't force down their beliefs on their sons throat.


Yes. Yes they do. *is speaking from experience*

[heavy_rasengan]

I don't , I used to get beaten up in the mosque by the bigger kids and the imams. fuckers, I'm going to shoot them all one day.

aw man dat really sucks, dats never happened to me b4 where du u live?
I belive in allah and let me tell you bout my religion in my opinion.

I think its the greatest religion on earth with some of the most evil people on earth.

[mr_yenz]

I believe in God because he gives me inspiration, in the most weirdest of ways. :oh

But, it's not a bad thing.

[DEATHwisher]

it doesn't even matter wheather you are forced to believe in a religion or not, look at youself, if you're speak of god in vanity now, it means you were never a christian in the beginning.

one can only choose to believe, theres no other way even with a knife on your throat. You might say you do, but that doesn't mean you're a christian.