Soul Society is screwed up...

[Oujisama]

So i've been watching the bleach anime for quite some time, and i've noticed something about soul society. Its completely screwed up. At first you'd think its filled with good since they destroy the mortal world of hollows and such. Then you watch as the main characters enter soul society. None of the shinigami really trust eachother. Just look at Byakuya, he's a heartless bastard. The captains are fighting eachother over simple matter. They're executing someone for a slight abuse in rules. Not to mention the execution involves an incredibly powerful weapon. The shinigami brutally killed quincys immediatly after they did something they did not like. Me talking wont really be nessecary, just watch the series or read the manga. Who agrees with me.

[Criminal]

I agree with you but thats the whole point of the showing us soul society. Its an ironic thing and actually, the real world is alot like Soul Society. The people who are supposed to uphold the laws are usualy the biggest criminals. Look at the police and government officials, both of which are known for being corrupt and unfair. Soul Society is no different, Shinigami are still people (atleast they used to be) and people are imperfect so its only right that soul society is imperfect also. I think that brings a whole new level to Bleach that I for one, really enjoy. Kabo Tite is a genius.

[Lord Yu]

Escape from hell go to hell thats the way.

[poopyfish]

yea, it is... but like other people said.. Soul society was made by people so it cant be perfect

[xeno]

yea, it is... but like other people said.. Soul society was made by people so it cant be perfect

I agree with you %100.

[krescentwolf]

Well SS is pretty much based on the feudal system of govt. And we all know how well that works. The quincy's were exterminated because they were upsetting the balance of existance which would eventually cause all hell to break loose.... um... and the execution with Rukia was Well if you remember the Soukyoku was never meant to be used on anyone other than criminals of captain class, that was all Aizens pushing since he... well... had a blood bath in the central government area. If Aizen hadn't been pushing the buttons im sure Rukia would have just been stripped of her Shinigami liscense or whatever the equivalent is.

Just figured I'd play devils advocate for once... although yea... SS definitly aint Heaven ^_^;

[Megaharrison]

Tite's look at the afterlife is indeed pesimistic, that is something very unconventional in shonen anime (like the flowery paradise shown in DBZ).

[Sniper]

So i've been watching the bleach anime for quite some time, and i've noticed something about soul society. Its completely screwed up. At first you'd think its filled with good since they destroy the mortal world of hollows and such. Then you watch as the main characters enter soul society. None of the shinigami really trust eachother. Just look at Byakuya, he's a heartless bastard. The captains are fighting eachother over simple matter. They're executing someone for a slight abuse in rules. Not to mention the execution involves an incredibly powerful weapon. The shinigami brutally killed quincys immediatly after they did something they did not like. Me talking wont really be nessecary, just watch the series or read the manga. Who agrees with me.

SMALL ABUSE IN THE RULES!?!?! Dude, rukia gave shinigami powers to a simple mortal, and didnt even take them back. Do you have any idea how bad that is? its like giving a cat super powers. Not good.

[Vile.47]

I think I remember mentioning SS is evil let it burn thread right? But yeah, it's evil.

[OniTasku]

You'll see the deeper plot of SS once the anime progresses further, I'd rather not spoil it for you. Yes, Soul Society is flawed, just like any other place on Earth. Nothing can be perfect, it's impossible and has yet to be proven.

[Potentialflip]

Have to say Soul Society is not Heaven or the Perfect place to live. In more ways than one it is a little similar to the real world. But I do have to say some of your remarks are a little over the top especially if you don't know what happens in the end or reviewed what happened through the whole Soul Society picture (cause it is one heck of a big picture to understand at this point of the story).

[GradeSchoolNinja]

I second OniTasku--there is much more to the events involving Rukia's execution than is apparent from the anime, so far--read the manga and you'll see. I'm 100% POSITIVE that not a single anime-only watcher will see what's coming, but it brilliantly ties together the whole series, and it's amazing.

It was what happened near the end of the Soul Society Arc that sealed my fate as a fanatical Bleach hoar, it's that crazy.

[Ticking_Clock]

I don't think SS was ever conisdered Heaven... Just because they purge the real world from hollows != they live in a heaven >.>

[tripperdan99]

Interesting thread.

I'm new to Bleach, so my SS exposure is still limited (have only viewed 12 episodes so far, working on getting the rest now). It's fun to watch the authors/creators of the Bleach series carve out their illusion of spirit and world. Of course it would be greatly flawed, as any fantasy would be. Just like the Roman and Greek gods were just expressions of themselves on a larger scale, flaws and all. Then watching others as they get immersed in this little world.

Looking forward to the Immersion.

TD99

[crystal-kay]

I've been watching Bleach up to episode 51 now. I feel there was someone pushing Rukia's execution in SS and Aizen's supposed "death" is leading to something huge. What, I'm not sure yet.

As for SS, it's not flawless. It's like a reflection of earth itself. It's not heaven and it's not perfect.

[Masaki]

But what I don't get at all is why the old guy doesn't let Shunsui or Ukitake at least explain themselves before deciding that he's going to slaughter both. He even said they were among the first in the Gotei 13, so you'd think he'd at least have some more respect for them.

[wolfman_120]

Hahahaha! As long as you have people like me (Kurotsuchi Mayuri) there it will never be perfect. And that's the way it should stay!

[cinosweiv]

But what I don't get at all is why the old guy doesn't let Shunsui or Ukitake at least explain themselves before deciding that he's going to slaughter both. He even said they were among the first in the Gotei 13, so you'd think he'd at least have some more respect for them.

I agree with you, usually an old geezer are both strong and wise.
He is only strong but I could not see he display any intellegency in seeing this excecution thing. He is too strict with following rules without using a little bit of common sense in judging whether it is appropriate using Soukyou. I see Urahara as a wiser person than him. So much dissapoinment about his character to me

[hitori78]

I agree with you, usually an old geezer are both strong and wise.
He is only strong but I could not see he display any intellegency in seeing this excecution thing. He is too strict with following rules without using a little bit of common sense in judging whether it is appropriate using Soukyou. I see Urahara as a wiser person than him. So much dissapoinment about his character to me

Usually ppl don't listen for 2 reasons, they are stubborn as hell, or they want something to happen so they won't admit they are wrong, that's not a spoiler simply a prediction....but hell I could be wrong

[tripperdan99]

SS: What I did on my Summer Vacation

The Soul Society is like Olympous meets Jonathan Living Seagull blended with a modified "Cast System"

Up to 42, still working on the remaining. Will post when I have some time

[Tokio_no_Go]

ROFL @tripperdan99 thats acctually a pretty good description, I need to re-read Jonathan Living Seagull. (Isnt it Livingston?)

[starphoenix]

When I first saw SS, it looked like a slum. This was supposed to be Bleach's version of Heaven. So I was looking forward to the Celestial type architecture that you would expect for heaven. I wouldn't want to go to a boring place where it is just fluffy clouds or having a good chance of ending up in a slum.

Since SS is in such a poor state I can imagine why Aizen wants to take over the absolute top position if no one is taking that spot.

[Lemon-Juice]

Since SS is in such a poor state I can imagine why Aizen wants to take over the absolute top position if no one is taking that spot.

Wonder what he is gonna do about it.. I mean he teams up with the 'bad guys'..And I can't think of any other goal for hollows then killing all shinigamis.. How is that gonna solve anything?

Nya..Kubo probably has some genius plot for it all..

[tripperdan99]

ROFL @tripperdan99 thats acctually a pretty good description, I need to re-read Jonathan Living Seagull. (Isnt it Livingston?)

tokio_no_go, you're right, it is Livingston. Thanks for pointing that out. I slaughter names and titles like that consistently. Plus, it's been awhile with the seagull, but the concept stayed. Especially the "Speed of Thought" Hard to match that.

And yes, I agree with starphoenix, the SS does resemble a slums build around the wealthly "capital" Plus Lemon-Juice poses some interesting challenges of how SS might or could evolve.

I still think the authors are making up portions as they go on this LOL

td99

[darkspark]

of course it has flaws, everything does. and especially with the feudal system that they have, there's going to be mistrust and alliances/enemies, etc, etc. and i dunno if having someone else take over would be such a bad thing, though i'm not saying that it's a good thing, either. but new ideas may improve it.... like making the divisions work together. that'd be key.
(and it's not heaven. if it were, there would be no paperwork, even for the shinigami)
(where do shinigami go when they die o_O no one has to answer that... i just thought of it...)

[Insipidipity]

Since when it is supposed to be their version of heaven? All they said its what humans call heaven. They just mean its the afterlife. Given that its not ruled by some allpowerful crock of a being, i wouldnt expcet it to be perfect.

[tripperdan99]

Well SS is a "work in progress" so here we have a team from our world jumping over to the SS in their bodies? Only Ichigo got pop'd in the head with the cane.

So physical can hop over to SS. Then afterlife/heaven is just "mirror" of this world with all the same issues. You just get to power up with some cool toys to slice and dice your foe. Also you can be chop'd to hamburger then put back together. And so far no body has gone to the After After life (except the "assassination of Aizen" supposively).

It's fun though to watch it unfold.

The cleanliness of theory is no match for the messiness of reality.

[blazingshadow]

you are not supposed to analize this like it was real world issue you know. you won't go to soul society after you die in real life.

[tripperdan99]

true true, I stumbled, sorry

td99

[ShuiMei]

I don't understand why people are saying Soul Society is based off Feudal society when it hasn't shown anything of the sort- I haven't seen anything about lords and vassals in the series, how on earth is it feudal?

It appears to me that Soul Society is a highly centralized bureaucracy, complete with divisions responsible for certain areas, a main chamber of people who make all the big decisions, civil servants, etcetera. Anyway, like all bureaucracies, it is bound to have some level of corruption within the system, particularly a system that is also evidently influenced by nobility (see: Noble Houses [read: Kuchiki]).

[Dimezanime20]

I do agree that Soul Society is unfair when it comes to its punishments. Like America, punishments like that should be considered "cruel and unusual". But then again, this is Bleach, so shit was fucked up from da beginning of da series.

[tripperdan99]

Not sure what you mean by "Like America" Apparently you've never been anywhere else in the world to make that kind of comment. Or you hang out at Moveon.org too much. Victim mentality is so weak.

ShuiMei, the “cast” system with their 78 levels of Soul Society looks very Feudal. When Rukia was adopted in to the Kuchiki family, she was exempt from having to test for graduation, etc. All kind of special favors, etc. Typical of what you would consider in such a system. Yea, they don’t have the cast of characters (lords, etc) but it’s sure is close, imho.

td99

[blazingshadow]

i don't see anything wrong with killing rukia for giving powers to a human. at first i thought it was logical but the way they tried to do it was wrong (the ginormous firebird was overkill)

[Dimezanime20]

shows how not much tripper noes about my background.:P

[tripperdan99]

6 billion pieces of flesh on this earth, am I suppose to be impressed?

Nor do you

td99 :)

But nice to meet ya anyway...

[tripperdan99]

i don't see anything wrong with killing rukia for giving powers to a human. at first i thought it was logical but the way they tried to do it was wrong (the ginormous firebird was overkill)


I agree that Rukia did make the deathrow list, but the whole story revolves around the 'Special' advanced treatment she got for getting her sentence, i.e. the execution moved forward Twice, the method of death (one for Captains or higher), etc. All this pressed Ichigo to become what no ones else could ever become in such a short period of time. Lots of things are in play.

SS has a revolt, battle between the "founder" and two captains, captains fighting captains, rouge fighters entering into the center relm, etc etc

Lots of stuff happening in SS territory for sure.

td99

[naruto9007]

you should all read the manga, so many things about SS and the happenings within it and all of the people will be explained to you.

[ShuiMei]

ShuiMei, the “cast” system with their 78 levels of Soul Society looks very Feudal. When Rukia was adopted in to the Kuchiki family, she was exempt from having to test for graduation, etc. All kind of special favors, etc. Typical of what you would consider in such a system. Yea, they don’t have the cast of characters (lords, etc) but it’s sure is close, imho.
Do you mean caste? As in a caste system like in India where you have defined social classes but with little social mobility? because caste systems have existed within and out of feudal societies, so having a caste-like system really doesn't makle Soul Society a feudal society. I say Soul Society isn't feudal because of the existence of a strong central government and bureacracy within it. Feudal societies were feudal precisely because they lacked that strong centralized government, feudal society was ruled by lords/high lords who ruled over those who lived on their lands, who in return would serve the lord, etcetera, etcetera and I haven't seen any of that in Soul Society, so once again, I don't see how its feudal.

[tripperdan99]

rgr, ShuiMei, I concur with your assessment and your point is well taken. I need to take naruto9007 up on the suggestion of going through the manga, just not sure I want to jump ahead of the anime. Might read up the point of anime and then decide where to go then.

As for “cast” and “caste” that’s a typical error I make. Hard to recall any of my teen years. Fortunately I did stop doing drugs before twenty, so I was able to salvage a few brain cells. They have a big load to carry for all the ones lost before them.

td99 :)

Warning: Predisposition controls you

[somedude34]

aw crap. i just got volume 7 so i dont know much about the soul society. all they showed was Renji passing these girls and some kid accidently let loose a hell butterfly and Renji went to Rukia's cell and they were talking. I will post more when i get more volumes.

[Efraim Longstocking]

SoulSociety is terrible.. I could see Ichigo teaming up with Aizen to take over soul society. That plot would own. If the view on soul society would change to be seen as a bad place and Aizen really just wants to make it a better place..

[Shogun]

yeah, soul society is one crappy place if you aren't a captain

[tripperdan99]

For some reason, I'm not sure Aizen is on the up and up. Just me. In fact I have not idea what's going on as to the over all plot even after watching every episode. To may possible turns.

It's SS's weakness that makes this anime turn.

td99

[krescentwolf]

There is something of a caste system in place. Normal Soul<Shinigami<Ranked Shinigami. From what Zangetsu says your generic everyday shinigami will never even learn the name of his Zanpakuto.

But SS is most definitly feudal. You have the common people which are all but ignored. You have Shinigami who are loyal only to their lord (read:captain), The Captains seem only to listen to Yama who acts as something of A Shogun, and he is suppose to listen to the central committee of 46. Seems nearly identical to Japanese feudalism to me. The only real difference between the two is the fact that A)Power isnt centralized in one personal (a la an Emperor), it's in a committee... And B) historically it was usually the Shogun who held actual strength, while the Emperor was simply a puppet...since we dont know SS before the unique events that happen there...we cant tell too much, but the CC46 do seem to have some power.

[ShuiMei]

But SS is most definitly feudal. You have the common people which are all but ignored. You have Shinigami who are loyal only to their lord (read:captain), The Captains seem only to listen to Yama who acts as something of A Shogun, and he is suppose to listen to the central committee of 46. Seems nearly identical to Japanese feudalism to me.
There are common people being ignored in all forms of society, it is not a characteristic specific to feudal society. "Common people" have been ignored in industrial societies, and if you want to be cycnical, one could easily say that common people are being ignored today in modern capitalist societies as well.

Furthemore, comparing the relationship a shinigami has with their captain to the relationship a vassal has with their lord is flawed, the vassal fights for the lord not because the lord is of higher social status but because the vassal lives on the lord's land. The vassal fights for and pledges loyalty to the lord in return for living on the land of the lord- it's an agreement between the two. What I'm saying is that Soul Society is not feudal because there does not appear to be anything like that in the system.

Even with Japanese feudalism, while different from western feudalism, there were still landowning lords who had their vassals who fought for them. If I recal correctly, the lords in Japanese feudalism were in control of their own han (territory, for lack of better word), which had their own bureaucracies with policies seperate from the other lords and neighbouring territories.

While Soul Society is divided into different areas, there doesn't appear to be seperate rulers/policies/bureaucracies for each area, and if captains are to be lords, they do not appear to be ruling over these seperate areas, the captains don't even own any land, atleast not to our knowledge. As for shinigami, they are loyal to their captains because the captain of their division is their superior, a division that they were assigned to, not because they're living off their land.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the similarities between Soul Society and the Edo period in Japan, particularly in terms of social structure, but in terms of government and actual feudalism, it is lacking a very key element...

Feudalism = multiple territories with landowning lords who have vassals that fight for them in return for, here's the key: living off the lord's land.

[Shogun]

all i know is the afterlife should involve EVERYONE (in heaven) having crazy ass powers, not living like peasents, i mean basing the afterlife on the PAST is a little worrying. Especially not being re-united with your own family.

[blazingshadow]

if you want to be cycnical, one could easily say that common people are being ignored today in modern capitalist societies as well.

it's not cynical it's realistic. only when ppl bitch about something they don't get ignored. that's why they bitch all the time...

[ShuiMei]

it's not cynical it's realistic. only when ppl bitch about something they don't get ignored. that's why they bitch all the time...
It really depends on your view of the government, where you live, and the social conditions in which you grew up in. I have a tendency to believe in "the system" and the possible good government can make, despite all the bad things, so I suppose that makes me a little naive. I personally feel it's a bit drab to think that the government doesn't care about le peuple, but some like yourself may call it realistic.

Then again, like I said, it depends on your social conditions and the government that you have, there's a lot of apathetic citizens where I live but I don't think we have it that bad.

[tripperdan99]

Governments always move towards totalism, total lost of freedom. Groups of people without government move towards chaos.

I certainly do not believe in the government beyond it’s well defined roll of keeping invaders out, protecting it borders and a few other limited items. Government should only exist for the people and be by the people, never more. Individuals must be 100 percent responsible for their own results, no excuse. Everyone given the chance for the pursuit of happiness (but not Guarantee it). Safety nets for those who fall through, but not hamocks for them to stay there.

Come to think of it, SS out side the central area was nothing but chaos. Just masses of people thrown together, not even with family members.

[uncanny_sama]

ahhh well whats good without evil :sweatdrop

[tripperdan99]

sort of that yin/yang thing, aye?

td99

[frostfire]

Now that someone has brought up how screwed up SS is, I would like to ask something that has been on my mind forever.

How can you "grow" up when you're dead? The most striking example would be Soi Fong or Hitsugaya, in flashbacks, it shows them as little children. In the anime you watch though, they are described as over hundreds of years old...how come they "grew" in the past but not in the present?:S

[tripperdan99]

I knowhatyoumeanvern, that's the thing confusing (actually one of many) about the SS

td99

[maruko]

So i've been watching the bleach anime for quite some time, and i've noticed something about soul society. Its completely screwed up. At first you'd think its filled with good since they destroy the mortal world of hollows and such. Then you watch as the main characters enter soul society. None of the shinigami really trust eachother. Just look at Byakuya, he's a heartless bastard. The captains are fighting eachother over simple matter. They're executing someone for a slight abuse in rules. Not to mention the execution involves an incredibly powerful weapon. The shinigami brutally killed quincys immediatly after they did something they did not like. Me talking wont really be nessecary, just watch the series or read the manga. Who agrees with me.

Ugh.. you really need to read the manga... If you read it you'll be able to answer all these questions...Byakuya is not a heartless bastard.. he even apologizes to Rukia afterwords for not saving her and tells her what his reasoning was... Who in their right mind would trust anybody like Gin? If I knew anybody with such a messed up grin on his face I wouldn't trust him either... It's not that all of soul society is messed up... it's that certain individuals inside soul society crave power, they want more than what they have been given... About the execution, it's not just about the "slight abuse in rules" it's more than that which also gives reason as to why they are using this "powerful weapon" of which you speak of... And which captains are fighting of "simple matters" I don't think you're reading into this quite well... Kenpachi fights because that's the way he is... he even wants a rematch between him and Ichigo after Ichigo recovers (that's when they're friends), it may sound weird but when Kenpachi fights you it's nothing personal... Hitsugaya fights Gin because he knows that he is behind some big conspiracy which is hurting, confusing and turning his life-long friend against him... though I am getting annoyed with Hinamori and her "taichou! taichou! taichou!" God it get's really annoying! ...all of your questions will be answered simply by READING THE MANGA!!

[mightyiguana]

I have read the manga, even with reading manga, I will still say SS is screwed up. I remember watching in the series in the beginning, Rukia made SS into a magical place where souls could find rest. But it turns out, most souls do not find rest, they trade troubles on earth for troubles in SS. Life just seems a veritable chore. I mean what is the purpose of the Rukongai, why do people live shitty lives in the Rukongai, I thought the hollow thing was to weed out the bad people, but it does not do that. It just weeds out the emotionally disturbed people, how silly is that? If you were cold hearted on earth you could carry on with your cold hearted self in SS. Is there any structural reason why yachiru should have such a bad life with bloodshed and despair. So yeah soul society sucks. It makes me wonder how bad Hell really is. Just how different is Hell from soul society? It seems to me that there is no logical reason for a hell.

[maruko]

I understand what you're saying... but if you really think about it (the idea of heaven and everything) Is it expected that once you enter heaven you undergo a complete personality change? I mean you're still the same person right? So where else would these "emotionally disturbed people" go? Each person is their own individual with different ideas and morals so it is inevitable to have conflicts... Plus, these "emotionally disturbed people" haven't done anything wrong so you can't send them to hell... I guess sending souls off to SS is a sort of way of insuring that no harm is done to innocent souls from corrupted ones such as hollows... The one thing I find that kind of depressing about entering SS is that it is possible that you might not even be able to meet up with people you knew from your life. What I'm saying is you can't expect people to be all energetic and happy in SS because people still maintain their logic among other things from their lives... So it can still be expected that there will be tension and even sadness... I'd be sad in heaven or SS cuz they wouldn't have any animé! How could one be happy without Bleach!?

[ShuiMei]

You guys bring up an interesting point regarding SoulSociety-Heaven. I suppose when we think of Soul Society like heaven, instead of 'another world,' there is indeed much left too be desired. There's poverty, crime, violence, bureaucratic corruption... but I guess it also depends on how you look at 'the afterlife.' If you think that the afterlife is supposed to be like a sort of paradise, Soul Society does seem like a total hack, but if you think of the afterlife like a sort of continuation of your previous life, Soul Society seems about right.