Official Kenpachi's Zanpaktou: Shikai or Sealed? Thread

[Insipidipity]

Lets settle this once and for all. Poll included.

Main argument that it's sealed: He doesn't know the name

Main argument that its Shikai: Kenpachi says so.

Personally and I believe the majority thinks its sealed but theres a couple threads that have this debate heavily discussed that I want to have a central place to argue and refer to should this ever come up again.

[skmt999]

When the heck does he say it's in Shikai? I don't recall him ever saying or implying that.

[Kenpachi011]

I pretty sure its sealed because I dont remember him ever saying he knew the name. Actually Im almost sure that he said he didnt know the name. And his various statements saying relying on your zan(sword) is for the weak. If he did know his shiki at that time he was being damn hypocritical.

Well first post so yeah!!! hope to make more some day guys

[ichinii30]

He's never said that he knew the name, and he said that he wanted to find out.

[Tousenz]

Its released. It was just released on Pure power.


He still doesn't know the name though so he can't use any of its powers.

[ichinii30]

Its released. It was just released on Pure power.


He still doesn't know the name though so he can't use any of its powers.

Hey, could be true.

[Tsukiyomi]

Its sealed.

We've never been given any indication that someone can unseal their sword without knowing its name unless of course they can use Ban Kai which is a total mastery of the sword. Renji is the perfect example of this, Byakuya seemed to know immediately after Renji silently released his sword that he could use Ban Kai.

Kenpachi doesn't know his swords name, nor does he know Ban Kai. I've heard someone argue that his Reiatsu is so high that his sword unsealed itself automatically. Well Ichigo has a higher innate power than Kenpachi due to his being a hybrid, Yamamoto also has a higher Reiatsu than Kenpachi, but his sword is able to remain sealed. So that argument is out.

If his sword were unsealed and a full-time release like Ichigos, he would have noticed at some point an immediate change in the appearance of his sword and an instantaneous huge boost in power, this surely would have been mentioned.

Also, when swords class Shikai to Shikai it seems like they get to know each other (just a personal theory since Zabimaru knew Zangetsu's name without being told), and Zanpakutou seem capable of recognizing and hearing each other. If his sword were unsealed surely Zangetsu would have been able to get its name, instead all he heard was the screaming from behind its seal.

[monk3]

i say sealed, because if you don't know the name of a zanpakutou, then you won't be able to call it out unless you have achieved ban kai. so if kenpachi doesnt know the name, then he won't be able to release his shikai

[Yoshi]

I'd have to say sealed, but I read on bleach7.com that he is rumoured to know the name now, is that true?

[monk3]

we won't know until its in the manga

[Shishou]

Its possible to do Shikai without saying the name. Such as when Renji was fighting Byakuya.


So I think its his Shikai.

[Yoshi]

Its possible to do Shikai without saying the name. Such as when Renji was fighting Byakuya.


So I think its his Shikai.

The only reason he could do that was because he had learnt bankai, shinigami who know bankai don't have to call the name of their zanpakatou when they release it. If Kenpachi knew bankai, I think he would've let it be known.

[ChickenPotPie]

Wasn't that just an indication that he had achieved Bankai?


I think it's sealed

[Shishou]

The only reason he could do that was because he had learnt bankai, shinigami who know bankai don't have to call the name of their zanpakatou when they release it. If Kenpachi knew bankai, I think he would've let it be known.

Thus back to the theory that Yachiru is his Zanpaktou :x

[Yoshi]

Thus back to the theory that Yachiru is his Zanpaktou :x

Never heard that before. Interesting theory.

[Tsukiyomi]

Its released. It was just released on Pure power.


He still doesn't know the name though so he can't use any of its powers.

Ichigo has more power and potential power than Kenpachi, Yamamoto also has more power, but his sword isn't always released, nor were either of their swords instantly released on their own.

Thus back to the theory that Yachiru is his Zanpaktou :x

Not that theory again, that one is total crap.

[maxhrk]

Kenpachi said that it is not sealed at all, rather it dont have name.

therefore..

it is not sealed or in shikai form.. Why?

that because kenpachi at first use his own pure power than use his sword.

hence no name. no shikai, no sealed form, nada. His powers are said to be uncontrollable. Eyepatch is there to sealed his powers until he removes it.

[jonat3]

It's released, cause Zaraki said so. People can deny Zaraki's statement, because they don't believe he knows what he's talking about. But they cannot deny that he actually said his sword was released.

[Yoshi]

The eyepatch does that? Where does it say that?

[Tsukiyomi]

hence no name. no shikai, no sealed form, nada. His powers are said to be uncontrollable. Eyepatch is there to sealed his powers until he removes it.

Due, all swords have names, all swords have sealed forms, all swords have shikai and all swords have Ban Kai, how far they go is all dependant on the user.

It's released, cause Zaraki said so. People can deny Zaraki's statement, because they don't believe he knows what he's talking about. But they cannot deny that he actually said his sword was released.

He never said "my sword is released, this is my shikai". He said that was the true form of his sword, that is probably because its the only form he's ever seen it in, since its never changed he probably assumed that was its shikai.

Once again, someone who doesn't know Ban Kai (like Renji) cannot unseal their sword without knowing its name, we've never been given any indication of that.

Tell me, how did he unseal it without its name? Raw power? Bullshit, Ichigo has more power and potential power than Zaraki, his sword needed its name to unseal, Yamamoto has more power than Zaraki, but he is able to seal his sword. So the "he's so strong it can't be sealed" argument is out.

Remember his swords screaming, why would it scream if it was unsealed? It would be out and fighting, it was screaming because it wanted out.

[Yoshi]

Where did the rumour come from (that bleach7.com got) that Zaraki now knows the name of his sword after the battle with Ichigo?

[jonat3]

He never said "my sword is released, this is my shikai". He said that was the true form of his sword, that is probably because its the only form he's ever seen it in, since its never changed he probably assumed that was its shikai.

I thought the same way you do. That's until i reread chapter 120. Those two chapters combined makes Zaraki's meaning in chapter 109 clear.

Once again, someone who doesn't know Ban Kai (like Renji) cannot unseal their sword without knowing its name, we've never been given any indication of that.

If the rule about knowing the name exists, i believe you could refer to Zaraki as the "indication" you speak about. Personally, i think the rule is incomplete at best.

Tell me, how did he unseal it without its name? Raw power? Bullshit, Ichigo has more power and potential power than Zaraki, his sword needed its name to unseal, Yamamoto has more power than Zaraki, but he is able to seal his sword. So the "he's so strong it can't be sealed" argument is out.

I think it has to do with skill too. Zaraki's power was so great, but he did not have the skill to seal it. Regardless, he himself said he could not seal it, cause it would be useless. Like i said, you can say Zaraki spouts BS, but you can't deny he said it.

Remember his swords screaming, why would it scream if it was unsealed? It would be out and fighting, it was screaming because it wanted out.

The main argument about Zaraki's sword being sealed relies on the questionable rule about knowing the name. While i agree that the name has importance, we do not know for certain how important it is.

[Tsukiyomi]

I thought the same way you do. That's until i reread chapter 120. Those two chapters combined makes Zaraki's meaning in chapter 109 clear.

Oh god, you're right, how could I have overlooked a confirmation from Ichigo, the master of all knowledge pertaining to Zanpakutou, someone who didn't even know a sword could change shape until he was told, didn't know they had names until he was told and didn't know Ban Kai existed.

Take Ichigo's statement in 120 "no wonder it doesn't change shape when I call its name", thats an indication right there that a name is REQUIRED to unseal a sword.

If the rule about knowing the name exists, i believe you could refer to Zaraki as the "indication" you speak about. Personally, i think the rule is incomplete at best.

Incomplete at best? Every single person ever to mention Zanpakutou having names has been in the context of using that name to unseal them, we've never received an indication of it being the other way around.

Zaraki as the indication? I think not, otherwise he would have said "I unsealed my sword without its name".

Think about this, even if Kenpachi could unseal his sword (up until the point he met Ichigo), would he? No, he would leave it sealed in order to rely on his own power. And don't give me that crap about it being too strong to seal because Yamamoto has more raw power then Kenpachi by far and it is sealable.

Thats one reason I don't buy his statement "the strongest seal doesn't work", because his power isn't the strongest we've seen, especially when he has his eyepatch on.

I think it has to do with skill too. Zaraki's power was so great, but he did not have the skill to seal it. Regardless, he himself said he could not seal it, cause it would be useless. Like i said, you can say Zaraki spouts BS, but you can't deny he said it.

See above, we have seen greater powers than his, and they have seals working on their swords. Are you telling me that with his eye-patch on Kenpachi is stronger than Yamamoto with his Shikai?

Yeah he said it, and he was wrong, period.

The main argument about Zaraki's sword being sealed relies on the questionable rule about knowing the name. While i agree that the name has importance, we do not know for certain how important it is.

Once again, all indications of a name have been in the context of it being a prerequisite to unsealing the sword.

[jonat3]

Oh god, you're right, how could I have overlooked a confirmation from Ichigo, the master of all knowledge pertaining to Zanpakutou, someone who didn't even know a sword could change shape until he was told, didn't know they had names until he was told and didn't know Ban Kai existed.

Take Ichigo's statement in 120 "no wonder it doesn't change shape when I call its name", thats an indication right there that a name is REQUIRED to unseal a sword.

Ichigo is obviously not a master. Yet he knew Zaraki's sword was released. How? Cause Zaraki told him so in chapter 109. Understanding what someone said does not require zanpakutou knowledge. You can argue that Ichigo misunderstood Zaraki, but i deem that extremely unliklely. More plausible that WE misunderstood his meaning in chapter 109, cause of the translation from Japanese to English.

And like i said, i fully agree that the name is important. But only up to a point.



Incomplete at best? Every single person ever to mention Zanpakutou having names has been in the context of using that name to unseal them, we've never received an indication of it being the other way around.

Zaraki as the indication? I think not, otherwise he would have said "I unsealed my sword without its name".

Read chapter 120 again for his meaning. He didn't say it outright, but he did say it in context.

Think about this, even if Kenpachi could unseal his sword (up until the point he met Ichigo), would he? No, he would leave it sealed in order to rely on his own power. And don't give me that crap about it being too strong to seal because Yamamoto has more raw power then Kenpachi by far and it is sealable.

Thats one reason I don't buy his statement "the strongest seal doesn't work", because his power isn't the strongest we've seen, especially when he has his eyepatch on.


See above, we have seen greater powers than his, and they have seals working on their swords. Are you telling me that with his eye-patch on Kenpachi is stronger than Yamamoto with his Shikai?

Like i said, i think skill is involved too. Zaraki doesn't seem to be the type to control spiritual power ver well.


Yeah he said it, and he was wrong, period.


Atleast you acknowledged him saying it.

Once again, all indications of a name have been in the context of it being a prerequisite to unsealing the sword.

Interpreting context requires experience. I'm 100% certain of my interpretation. Naturally, the same holds true for you. However, if i give the text from the manga to an english professor, i'm confident enough that he will conclude the same as me.

[monk3]

that because kenpachi at first use his own pure power than use his sword.

hence no name. no shikai, no sealed form, nada. His powers are said to be uncontrollable. Eyepatch is there to sealed his powers until he removes it.

how does it mean that he can't control is powers? he can control it fine. like when he first fights ichigo. out of nowhere you see all this spirit pressure. and also. the eyepatch does not seal his powers. they suck out his reiatsu because he likes to give his opponents a fair chance. which is also why he wears teh bells
---------------------------------------------

uh will this help at all in this discussion. i was re-reading the chapters and i came across this:

http://img500.imageshack.us/img500/5454/maybe3eb.png

[Tsukiyomi]

Ichigo is obviously not a master. Yet he knew Zaraki's sword was released. How? Cause Zaraki told him so in chapter 109. Understanding what someone said does not require zanpakutou knowledge. You can argue that Ichigo misunderstood Zaraki, but i deem that extremely unliklely. More plausible that WE misunderstood his meaning in chapter 109, cause of the translation from Japanese to English.

And like i said, i fully agree that the name is important. But only up to a point.

Kenpachi isn't too smart when it comes to Zanpakutou either, their combined inexperience and lack of general knowledge puts your entire case on shakey ground. You're entire case is based off a single statement, backed up by someone who doesn't know what their talking about, which is all weighed against every statement pertaining to Zanpakutou from every other character and the very nature of Zanpakutou.

I recall Kenpachi saying it was the ONLY form of his Zanpakutou, indicating he had never seen it in another form, so I seriously doubt it could have unsealed and changed form without him knowing.

Read chapter 120 again for his meaning. He didn't say it outright, but he did say it in context.

I just reread 120, which statement do you think proves your case?

Like i said, i think skill is involved too. Zaraki doesn't seem to be the type to control spiritual power ver well.

Atleast you acknowledged him saying it.

If he has no control, why is he able to lower his energy enough to exist around normal shinigami? If he can't control it then even with his eye-patch everyone within a few hundred yards (under like a 5th seat) should just be dropping dead. Hell it should have been impossible for him to even lie down in the 4th divisions hospital without killing half of them.

The fact remains Yamamoto has a greater power, but is able to seal his sword, so don't speak to me of the impossibilities of sealing his sword.

Interpreting context requires experience. I'm 100% certain of my interpretation. Naturally, the same holds true for you. However, if i give the text from the manga to an english professor, i'm confident enough that he will conclude the same as me.

Really? And what meaning do you think that professor would take from everyone elses indications of a name being needed for unsealing? I'm sure he would side with me on that one.

[monk3]

i think the quote jonat was talking about was this one

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/1832/maybe28ag.png

[Tsukiyomi]

Notice him saying "it won't change shape when I call its name", even in the statement jonat thinks proves Kenpachi didn't need to know the name, in the same sentence even, Ichigo speaks of the change requiring the name.

Once again I'll say Ichigo has more power then Kenpachi, but even he required his name to unseal his sword.

[monk3]

yes i agree with you Tsukiyomi. that a name is required to release a shikai. but looking at my last posts it looks like his zanpakutou isn't sealed. but then again he does need to know the name. i mean, zanpakutous don't come to people in released forms. look at all the lower ranks. they got all these crappy katanas

[Tsukiyomi]

yes i agree with you Tsukiyomi. that a name is required to release a shikai. but looking at my last posts it looks like his zanpakutou isn't sealed. but then again he does need to know the name. i mean, zanpakutous don't come to people in released forms. look at all the lower ranks. they got all these crappy katanas

The only thing different about his sword is the hilt, and it looks like he could have just made it himself. The rest of it is just chunks taken out from battle.

[jonat3]

Kenpachi isn't too smart when it comes to Zanpakutou either, their combined inexperience and lack of general knowledge puts your entire case on shakey ground. You're entire case is based off a single statement, backed up by someone who doesn't know what their talking about, which is all weighed against every statement pertaining to Zanpakutou from every other character and the very nature of Zanpakutou.

I recall Kenpachi saying it was the ONLY form of his Zanpakutou, indicating he had never seen it in another form, so I seriously doubt it could have unsealed and changed form without him knowing.

I once said that i took Zaraki's statement above any of the comments about zanpakutou INTERPRETED by other people. That's right. It's not that the comments about Zaraki prove him wrong, it's that i think that you guys misinterpreted those comments that makes you THINK that Zaraki is wrong.

Also, i cannot see what purpose Kubo would have in screwing with our minds. I think Kubo told us that Zaraki also had a fulltime released sword for the sole purpose to demonstrate that Zaraki and Ichigo are almost the same, but that their difference in philosophy made Ichigo win.


I just reread 120, which statement do you think proves your case?

This line:
Yoruichi":Have you ever noticed that your zangetsu is always in it's released form?"
Ichigo: :"Really? So it's like kenpachi's soul cutter?"

This meaning is rather clear, but if you still disbelieve, the anime version leaves no room for doubt to what Ichigo was referring to.

Anime version (Lunar):
Ichigo:"Fulltime released sword? That's just like kenpachi."



If he has no control, why is he able to lower his energy enough to exist around normal shinigami? If he can't control it then even with his eye-patch everyone within a few hundred yards (under like a 5th seat) should just be dropping dead. Hell it should have been impossible for him to even lie down in the 4th divisions hospital without killing half of them.

The fact remains Yamamoto has a greater power, but is able to seal his sword, so don't speak to me of the impossibilities of sealing his sword.

I never said he cannot controll spiritual power. I said he can't controll it WELL.



Really? And what meaning do you think that professor would take from everyone elses indications of a name being needed for unsealing? I'm sure he would side with me on that one.

He would conclude all of you suck at reading comprehension. No. Seriously.

[monk3]

Tsukiyomi, do you think that Kenpachi's zanpakutou could have pulled him into his realm like zangetsu did to ichigo?

edit: jonat i showed the pic in the spoiler...........

[jonat3]

Tsukiyomi, do you think that Kenpachi's zanpakutou could have pulled him into his realm like zangetsu did to ichigo?

edit: jonat i showed the pic in the spoiler...........

Tnx, Monk3. It certainly helps.

As for your question, i think it could if the sword was inclined to or/and if Zaraki's state of mind was similar to ichigo's state of mind during that chapter where he went to the inner world.

[monk3]

yeah but Zaraki never listened to his sword, so how could he figure out the name to call it out? because no shinigami we have seen so far has had a zanpakutou that they didn't call out at some point in time

[jonat3]

yeah but Zaraki never listened to his sword, so how could he figure out the name to call it out? because no shinigami we have seen so far has had a zanpakutou that they didn't call out at some point in time

I'm saying that Zaraki has the released state without knowing the name. It may be that in USING it, the name may be required. Even if the rule about knowing the name exists, a common theme seen in comics/manga is that exceptions to it always exist.

[monk3]

true but then does that mean that Zaraki just had a release form his whole life, like when he met Yachiru?

[jonat3]

true but then does that mean that Zaraki just had a release form his whole life, like when he met Yachiru?

Well, we've seen the flashback where he already had that sword. So i for one believe that he had that sword from the very start.

Also, like i stated elsewhere in another thread, Ichigo himself nearly started with his released sword right from the very beginning. The sword he had before was based partially on rukia's power. This can be seen, if you compare the hilt from Ichigo's first sword with rukia's sword. When Ichigo regained his TRUE sword, a sword that did not have rukia's powers within it, but his own, it was a fulltime released sword that manifested itself.

Certainly as someone may point out, Ichigo shouted the name at that time, but i think the name only makes it easier in summoning or attacking, while doing it without is still possible, only harder.

[monk3]

if this is true, then why do captains call out the name when they could just not say a word and then like kill a hollow without saying a thing? that they are bored?

[jonat3]

if this is true, then why do captains call out the name when they could just not say a word and then like kill a hollow without saying a thing? that they are bored?

Probably, because doing it without the name may weaken the attack. Aizen's incantation bypass for example severely weakened his spell. And also, i think that doing it without the name makes it harder to do. I don't see them skipping the name, until it has real gains. Renji only skipped his, cause he needed to stop Byakuya fast.

[monk3]

you also forgot about byakuya in the manga when byakuya is trying to keep up with ichigo when he is in bankai, and he is too fast, and byakuya is like, yeah fuck this i'm using my hands

but yeah i see what you mean by that

[Nihonjin]

Kenpachi's sword = sealed...
"But he said its not"
He's stupid...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/zaraki1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/Zaraki3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/zaraki4.jpg

it's that i think that you guys misinterpreted those comments that makes you THINK that Zaraki is wrong.

No its because two out of the 3 statements he made in those 10 seconds are definatly wrong (And based on the rules of soul slayers we've seen so far, its only logical the third is wrong aswell >___>)

The word Kai in shikai means "release" but according to Kenpachi, who according to Jonat3 knows alot about soul slayers and is speaking the truth, says the damn thing doesn't have a release form...
Now tell me, how can you release something that isn't sealed in the first place?

It can't :omg

A little summary of what I've seen thus far

Its his shikai because:

1) He said so
2) Ichigo said so

Its not his shikai because:

1) The two people who stated it is his shikai are both totally ignorant when it comes to soul slayers

2) You need to call out your slayers name unless you've achieved Bankai (and Kenpachi clearly stated he doesn't know it)

3) His sword was crying out to be unsealed

[jonat3]

Kenpachi's sword = sealed...
"But he said its not"
He's stupid...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/zaraki1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/Zaraki3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v80/amsah/zaraki4.jpg



No its because two out of the 3 statements he made in those 10 seconds are definatly wrong (And based on the rules of soul slayers we've seen so far, its only logical the third is wrong aswell >___>)

That's why i said you misinterpreted the comments about zanpakutous. You think he's wrong, because his comments don't fit with your interpretations. I'm saying all of you misinterpreted these comments about the zanpakutou.

The word Kai in shikai means "release" but according to Kenpachi, who according to Jonat3 knows alot about soul slayers and is speaking the truth, says the damn thing doesn't have a release form...
Now tell me, how can you release something that isn't sealed in the first place?

No, i'm saying it doesn't have a sealed form. Not that it doesn't have a released form.

And he never had a sealed form, cause he has the same amount of talent for spiritual pressure as Ichigo. Like i said before, Ichigo started with a fulltime release sword the moment he manifested his own sword. It's possible to manifest a sword with it's abilities already released, but the shinigami has to be very powerful for such a thing to happen.

A little summary of what I've seen thus far

Its his shikai because:

1) He said so
2) Ichigo said so

Its not his shikai because:

1) The two people who stated it is his shikai are both totally ignorant when it comes to soul slayers

2) You need to call out your slayers name unless you've achieved Bankai (and Kenpachi clearly stated he doesn't know it)

3) His sword was crying out to be unsealed

Nice summary and correct in essentials.

[Nihonjin]

No, i'm saying it doesn't have a sealed form. Not that it doesn't have a released form.

And he never had a sealed form, cause he has the same amount of talent for spiritual pressure as Ichigo. Like i said before, Ichigo started with a fulltime release sword the moment he manifested his own sword. It's possible to manifest a sword with it's abilities already released, but the shinigami has to be very powerful for such a thing to happen.

Can you release a bird that you havn't caged?
No...to release something, it needs to be sealed.

Ichigo didn't start with a fulltime release soul slayer >____>
He started with his half soul slayer (wich was raped by Byakuya), then it was destroyed untill there was nothing left but a hilt by Urahara.
After that he found out its name and shouted "Zangetzu".
He didn't start with the damn kitchen knife >__>

So basically you don't have any "real" info to base this on.......
Ichigo and Kenpachi were both talking about something they don't know anything about.

[jonat3]

No, i'm saying it doesn't have a sealed form. Not that it doesn't have a released form.

And he never had a sealed form, cause he has the same amount of talent for spiritual pressure as Ichigo. Like i said before, Ichigo started with a fulltime release sword the moment he manifested his own sword. It's possible to manifest a sword with it's abilities already released, but the shinigami has to be very powerful for such a thing to happen.

Can you release a bird that you havn't caged?
No...to release something, it needs to be sealed.

Ichigo didn't start with a fulltime release soul slayer >____>
He started with his half soul slayer (wich was raped by Byakuya), then it was destroyed untill there was nothing left but a hilt by Urahara.
After that he found out its name and shouted "Zangetzu".
He didn't start with the damn kitchen knife >__>

So basically you don't have any "real" info to base this on.......
Ichigo and Kenpachi were both talking about something they don't know anything about.

That sword had rukia's hilt. I'm referring to Ichigo's sword that is wholly his own with no speck of rukia's power at all.

And i'm still saying it's possible to start out without the sealed form.

[Nihonjin]

That WAS Ichigo's sword.....
He regained it when he regained his shinigame powers, check episode 20 >___>

Seriously, if it wasn't then you're saying he released his own sword, from Rukia's sealed one >____________________>

[jonat3]

That WAS Ichigo's sword.....
He regained it when he regained his shinigame powers, check episode 20 >___>

Seriously, if it wasn't then you're saying he released his own sword, from Rukia's sealed one >____________________>

No, my point is this. That sword that Ichigo manifested when he received rukia's powers were partially based on rukia's. It was a combination of both Ichigo and rukia's powers. But since that wasn't his own powers, it's unreliable to judge anything from that sword. So i judged it from the sword that WAS his true sword, the one that did not have rukia's hilt, the current Zangetsu.

[Nihonjin]

Dude, every last bit of power Ichigo had from Rukia got destroyed by Byakuya, so actually the sword really was his, otherwise it would be gone aswell.

Now back to the point, to start with a released soul slayer = utter bullshizzle...so Kenpachi's sword = sealed.

[jonat3]

Dude, every last bit of power Ichigo had from Rukia got destroyed by Byakuya, so actually the sword really was his, otherwise it would be gone aswell.

It got destroyed, but that doesn't mean there was nothing left. That bladeless sword was to me the leftover husk of rukia's powers. That sword can never be regarded as Ichigo's true sword. The hilt alone says it all.

Now back to the point, to start with a released soul slayer = utter bullshizzle...so Kenpachi's sword = sealed.

Yeah...ok.......... -__-

[Insipidipity]

If that sword was Rukia's power, then why the hell did he find it in the box with his Shinigami powers. The one Zangetsu himself claimed to be his own. Thats his damn sword. When Rukia lost her powers, her sword disappeared and Ichigo's manifested. She didn't transfer her sword. If your zanpaktou is a manifestation of your spirit, then when you give up your power, theres nothing to give it form and it just recedes back into your soul. Shinigami powers just provide a gateway for a person to get their own sword because it gives their spirit enough power to take shape.

[jonat3]

If that sword was Rukia's power, then why the hell did he find it in the box with his Shinigami powers. The one Zangetsu himself claimed to be his own. Thats his damn sword. When Rukia lost her powers, her sword disappeared and Ichigo's manifested. She didn't transfer her sword. If your zanpaktou is a manifestation of your spirit, then when you give up your power, theres nothing to give it form and it just recedes back into your soul. Shinigami powers just provide a gateway for a person to get their own sword because it gives their spirit enough power to take shape.

Like i said, the sword was a mix between rukia's and Ichigo's. I know that while the sword had rukia's hilt, the sword essentially still was Zangetsu. But i'm still not judging wether he started with a sealed sword or not from that sword. That's cause the fact remains that rukia's power was still mixed with it. That could have affected it being in sealed or released state. We'll never, ever know what kind of sword Ichigo would have manifested if he gained shinigami powers on his own and not through rukia.

I myself think it likely he still would have started out with a fulltime released sword, but that's just me. If someone says that he thinks it likely that Ichigo would start with the sealed form first, i won't deny it. Cause in the end, we'll never really know wether he could have manifested or not.

[Insipidipity]

Like i said, the sword was a mix between rukia's and Ichigo's. I know that while the sword had rukia's hilt, the sword essentially still was Zangetsu. But i'm still not judging wether he started with a sealed sword or not from that sword. That's cause the fact remains that rukia's power was still mixed with it. That could have affected it being in sealed or released state. We'll never, ever know what kind of sword Ichigo would have manifested if he gained shinigami powers on his own and not through rukia.

I myself think it likely he still would have started out with a fulltime released sword, but that's just me. If someone says that he thinks it likely that Ichigo would start with the sealed form first, i won't deny it. Cause in the end, we'll never really know wether he could have manifested or not.
Kenpachi claims his didn't have a sealed form because he was too powerful for it. Ichigo with Rukia's powers combined would've been even more power than Ichigo's alone so he STILL shouldn't have been able to seal it if it wasn't already sealed.

The fact is that POWER does NOT unseal swords. We saw his sword deforming from his power yet not unsealing itself. So Kenpachi's claim that he couldn't seal his sword even if he tried is just an ignorant statement.

[jonat3]

Kenpachi claims his didn't have a sealed form because he was too powerful for it. Ichigo with Rukia's powers combined would've been even more power than Ichigo's alone so he STILL shouldn't have been able to seal it if it wasn't already sealed.

The fact is that POWER does NOT unseal swords. We saw his sword deforming from his power yet not unsealing itself. So Kenpachi's claim that he couldn't seal his sword even if he tried is just an ignorant statement.

Perhaps. However, i think it's better to say that wether a shinigami starts out with his released form or not depends on the shinigami's talent for spiritual power. More accurate than Zaraki's statement.

Edit: Ok, i'm off. Be back in 10-11 hours or so.

[Bored]

i think it's sealed.

but i also am wondering (on a sidenote) if anyone thinks he learned his zanpaktou's name? i mean when he fought komamura and tousen, his sword was already fixed, which was just broken with his fight with ichigo. i can understand why renji's zabimaru repaired itself over time, but for kenpachi, who doesn't know its name, you'd think that would limit the capabilities of the sword...

that's just an opinion though...

[Ah B]

Its sealed. He doesn't know its name, therefore its not possible for him to release it into shikai (unless it released itself, which would be pretty stupid).

Wasn't it said that he was a special captain because of his zanpaktou that was always sealed?

[Marsala]

I'm of the opinion that Kenpachi is the exception to the rule of needing to know your sword's name to unseal it and achieve Shikai form. Kubo Tite has no reason to have Kenpachi say so and have Ichigo repeat it without correction if it wasn't true. Of course, I'm also a believer in the "Yachiru is the materialization of Kenpachi's soul cutter" theory in which he already knows and has said the name but has no idea of the truth, so I'm crazy. Still, it's a tempting theory and no more shocking or plothole-opening than Aizen's ruse, Isshin's secret identity, or Rukia's likely-vice-captain-rank-holding-after-all were before they were revealed and explained. Aizen's faking of his own death in particular was almost impossible to predict without inventing a great deal of mechanisms to explain the plotholes, though I have seen some people come very, very close to getting it right.

[Tsukiyomi]

Like i said, the sword was a mix between rukia's and Ichigo's. I know that while the sword had rukia's hilt

A sealed sword is standard, they all look almost identical with the exception of people like Urahara (who it can be speculated knows enough about Shinigami science to make his sword into anything he wants).

Looking back the sword Ichigo has is different than Rukias, it has two tassels hanging off of it, a small difference, but that alone shows he is not using an exact copy of her sword.

The sealed swords vary depending on the persons power, thats why the hilt on Kenpachi's sword looks different, then again he could have just made it himself.

Perhaps. However, i think it's better to say that wether a shinigami starts out with his released form or not depends on the shinigami's talent for spiritual power. More accurate than Zaraki's statement.

Talent for spiritual power? What does that mean? That his power is too strong to be sealed? No, people like Ichigo and Yamamoto have more power, Ichigo had a sealed sword until he called its name and Yamamoto still has one.

Is it his lack of ability to contain his power? No, he is able to control his power enough to be in the 4th divisions hospital and walk around SS without people dropping dead around him (remember when he rescues Ganju, Chad and Ishida, none of them were effected despite Ganju being weak and Ishida no longer having his powers). So he can most definetly control his power enough to be normal around people, especially with the eye-patch on, so that point is out.

[Tousenz]

The sword is definitely unsealed. Its not one of the nameless swords given to those nubs. As soon as Kenpachi got it, it musta transformed to his power and thats how he knows its unsealed.

[babbitblob]

Ok. There are various swords
1) Trainee sword. For academy students. Not unsealable. Ichigo didn't get this.
2) Someone elses sword. Ichigo got this. His sword took the form of Rukia's, and was simply filled and bubbled up with Ichigo's reiatsu. Thats why it was so weak but big.
3) Sealed named sword. This is the sword Ichigo got after finding the name of his shinigami powers/sword. Zangetsu then was released and the sword he had before became Zangetsu's true form. Before this Zangetsu was in Rukia's sword only because that was the only manifestation of Ichigo's powers. It is unknown whether academy studetns are given new swords to unseal on their own or unseal their trainee swords. Or maybe they form them with their minds?
4) Unsealed named sword. Shikai. Special characteristics are given here.
5) BAN KAI!!! Nuff said.

I'm pretty sure Kenpachi simply has a #2 type sword, where his power bubbles into the sword. But because he has so much, and he can focus it, it is much harder to break, almost as hard as it is to break a shikai.

[Tsukiyomi]

The sword is definitely unsealed. Its not one of the nameless swords given to those nubs. As soon as Kenpachi got it, it musta transformed to his power and thats how he knows its unsealed.

All shinigami have sealed swords, Kenpachi's is sealed. It has a name, but he simply doesn't know it so he can't unseal it. You say it transformed due to his power, I'll say it again, Ichigo and Yamamoto have more raw power then Kenpachi, but Ichigo had a sealed sword and Yamamoto can still seal his.

[DevilB0i]

It's shikai form no doubt.

[Nihonjin]

After a 3 pages long discussion, all I've heard is "Its his shikai because he says its his soul slayers true form".
Thats not a valid point because we've also heard people say that you need a name to release a soul slayer (and we havn't seen a single person release his/her soul slayer for the without calling its name (unless they've achieved Bankai).

So now we've got two statements in the series clashing with eachother:

1) My soul slayer doesn't have a name (actually I don't know it) Its my soul slayers true form (Ignorant statement made by Kenpachi)

2) To release ones soul slayer you need to know its name (statement made by Urahara and proven by everyone who ever released their soul slayer)

The series has proven time and time again that you need to know your soul slayers name to release it, so what makes Kenpachi that special huh?

"My soul slayer doesn't have a sealed form"
"My soul slayer doesn't have a name"
2 mins later
"Would you mind telling me your name?"

All soul slayers have a sealed form so the first statement = wrong
He asked his soul slayer its name, so he basically comfirmed that he was talking alot of bullshit before...
So what makes you think the third statement "Its my soul slayers true form" is correct?
He has proven to be totally ignorant when it comes to soul slayers, so instead of believing him I'd rather trust Urahara's knowledge about the swords.

Give me some concrete evidence that his sword is unsealed, otherwise just face the fact that its not.

[jonat3]

After a 3 pages long discussion, all I've heard is "Its his shikai because he says its his soul slayers true form".
Thats not a valid point because we've also heard people say that you need a name to release a soul slayer (and we havn't seen a single person release his/her soul slayer for the without calling its name (unless they've achieved Bankai).

So now we've got two statements in the series clashing with eachother:

1) My soul slayer doesn't have a name (actually I don't know it) Its my soul slayers true form (Ignorant statement made by Kenpachi)

2) To release ones soul slayer you need to know its name (statement made by Urahara and proven by everyone who ever released their soul slayer)

The series has proven time and time again that you need to know your soul slayers name to release it, so what makes Kenpachi that special huh?

"My soul slayer doesn't have a sealed form"
"My soul slayer doesn't have a name"
2 mins later
"Would you mind telling me your name?"

All soul slayers have a sealed form so the first statement = wrong
He asked his soul slayer its name, so he basically comfirmed that he was talking alot of bullshit before...
So what makes you think the third statement "Its my soul slayers true form" is correct?
He has proven to be totally ignorant when it comes to soul slayers, so instead of believing him I'd rather trust Urahara's knowledge about the swords.

Give me some concrete evidence that his sword is unsealed, otherwise just face the fact that its not.

This entire argument is based on the theory that one needs to know the name. This rule has never been officially stated in the manga. As of such, this argument is based on an unproven concept.

[Tsukiyomi]

This entire argument is based on the theory that one needs to know the name. This rule has never been officially stated in the manga. As of such, this argument is based on an unproven concept.

It has a much stronger footing than your theory, yours is based off a statement made by Kenpachi based on his knowledge of his Zanpakutou. Kenpachi said "my sword ain't got no name", then shortly after he asked it its name, that is a solid indication of his lack of knowledge about his Zanpakutou. He flat out showed he was wrong, yet you still take his word for it.

Also, remember when Renji unsealed his sword without its name, Byakuya was like "did you...", what would be the point of that statement if you can unseal your sword without its name and without knowing Ban Kai? It should just be an everyday occurence.

[jonat3]

It has a much stronger footing than your theory, yours is based off a statement made by Kenpachi based on his knowledge of his Zanpakutou. Kenpachi said "my sword ain't got no name", then shortly after he asked it its name, that is a solid indication of his lack of knowledge about his Zanpakutou. He flat out showed he was wrong, yet you still take his word for it.

Also, remember when Renji unsealed his sword without its name, Byakuya was like "did you...", what would be the point of that statement if you can unseal your sword without its name and without knowing Ban Kai? It should just be an everyday occurence.

Heck, i know he doesn't know the name. What he meant is to say his sword is still nameless, cause he didn't bother to ask it.

And ironcially enough, i think mine has much stronger footing. Mine is based on the clear hard verifiable text while yours is based on a rule we don't even know for certain really exists. You can't deny that this rule is still an assumption, even if that rule sounds pretty believable. It's ASSUMPTION, not fact. THIS is what all of you are basing your arguments on. THIS is the source of your disbelief. All the other arguments are secondary and of no true importance to this discussion.

[Tsukiyomi]

Heck, i know he doesn't know the name. What he meant is to say his sword is still nameless, cause he didn't bother to ask it.

No, he didn't say "I don't know its name", he said "it has no name", and he admitted he was wrong by asking.

And ironcially enough, i think mine has much stronger footing. Mine is based on the clear hard verifiable text while yours is based on a rule we don't even know for certain really exists. You can't deny that this rule is still an assumption, even if that rule sounds pretty believable. It's ASSUMPTION, not fact. THIS is what all of you are basing your arguments on. THIS is the source of your disbelief. All the other arguments are secondary and of no true importance to this discussion.

Verifiable text? He retracted half that statement at the end of that battle. An admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Our case is built on the very nature of Zanpakutou as we have been told it. The only case of someone unsealing it without a name is Renji, and that is because he had Ban Kai.

[jonat3]

No, he didn't say "I don't know its name", he said "it has no name", and he admitted he was wrong by asking.



Verifiable text? He retracted half that statement at the end of that battle. An admission that he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Our case is built on the very nature of Zanpakutou as we have been told it. The only case of someone unsealing it without a name is Renji, and that is because he had Ban Kai.

As we've been told? I know what i've been told. And it still differs from yours. That's cause you interpreted differently. IMO, the interpretation regarding Zaraki's sword is much more reliable than the interpretation about some rule we don't know even exists.

If you don't know it's name, then it's the same as it having no name. By asking at the end he admitted that swords may not be just tools.

[Khemical]

It is true, Zaraki did say himself his sword is always released. However, Zangetsu, Yourichi and others have clearly stated Zaraki does not know his zanpakutou's name, Zangetsu pointing out the zanpakutou crying out in pain to be heard further prooves it. With that said, every single person including old Yama has to call their Zanpakutou's name to be released, the only exception we have seen is Renji which is clearly a ban kai reference from Byakuya.

So, back to Zaraki. Is his zanpakutou released? Lets review the facts:
1) Zaraki said himself his sword is always released
2) Zaraki obviously knows NOTHING about his zanpakutou, he has no abilities, he canno thear its name, he has no relationship at all. Why should we believe he is right?
3) Everyone, every single person has to/has had to (renji) call on their sword to release it, Ichigo's is a full time release, he had to call on it, before he did it was nothing more than a broken regular Zanpakutou.

It all depends on how reliable you think Zaraki is making that statement. No doubt he said its always released, but keep in mind this is coming from a guy who knows nothing about his zanpakutou, just how much can we believe his word? I'm siding with its sealed, I do not believe Zaraki knows what he is talking about. More than that, from everything we have seen, every single person in the manga up to this point has had to originally call their zanpakutou's name to release it, Zaraki obviously has never done this. I just can't accept he has shi kai without more proof.

[jonat3]

It is true, Zaraki did say himself his sword is always released. However, Zangetsu, Yourichi and others have clearly stated Zaraki does not know his zanpakutou's name, Zangetsu pointing out the zanpakutou crying out in pain to be heard further prooves it. With that said, every single person including old Yama has to call their Zanpakutou's name to be released, the only exception we have seen is Renji which is clearly a ban kai reference from Byakuya.

So, back to Zaraki. Is his zanpakutou released? Lets review the facts:
1) Zaraki said himself his sword is always released
2) Zaraki obviously knows NOTHING about his zanpakutou, he has no abilities, he canno thear its name, he has no relationship at all. Why should we believe he is right?
3) Everyone, every single person has to/has had to (renji) call on their sword to release it, Ichigo's is a full time release, he had to call on it, before he did it was nothing more than a broken regular Zanpakutou.

It all depends on how reliable you think Zaraki is making that statement. No doubt he said its always released, but keep in mind this is coming from a guy who knows nothing about his zanpakutou, just how much can we believe his word? I'm siding with its sealed, I do not believe Zaraki knows what he is talking about. More than that, from everything we have seen, every single person in the manga up to this point has had to originally call their zanpakutou's name to release it, Zaraki obviously has never done this. I just can't accept he has shi kai without more proof.

Well, Zaraki is a captain of the gotei 13. Don't you think it's conceivable that someone told him about the state of his sword? Just like Yoruichi did to Ichigo, there may have been someone that said something to Zaraki.

Anyways, i guess we'll just have to wait and see. This arc certainly has enough enemies that requires Zaraki to powerup. Hopefully he manifests a shikai ability at that time.

[Tsukiyomi]

Well, Zaraki is a captain of the gotei 13. Don't you think it's conceivable that someone told him about the state of his sword? Just like Yoruichi did to Ichigo, there may have been someone that said something to Zaraki.

Why would they? Does it seem to you like people like talking to Zaraki? Everyone other than Yachiru seems to either fear him or hate him with a passion.

And how many people have we seen talk to each other about their swords? If they got around talking about their swords then no one would ever be surprised about the ability of their opponents sword, but it happens time and time again.

Anyways, i guess we'll just have to wait and see. This arc certainly has enough enemies that requires Zaraki to powerup. Hopefully he manifests a shikai ability at that time.

Yes, hopefully soon we will see something irrefutable.

[Insipidipity]

Current Tally of people who actually believe what Kenpachi says: 9

Current Tally of people who think he's a crock of shit and follows what everyone else has said: 25.

If I'm not mistaken, Ichigo thought Kenpachi must've been wrong about his Zanpaktou, that it couldn't be "without a name" because "all Zanpaktou are alive".

On top of that, Kenpachi couldn't hear his own sword so his credibility of it "not having a name" is highly questionable. Its like someone saying their best friend is black but then you find out they're blind. Then he goes and tries to find out his sword's name later on.

So those 3 reasons seem like a good indicator as the nature of his sword.

[jonat3]

Current Tally of people who actually believe what Kenpachi says: 9

Current Tally of people who think he's a crock of shit and follows what everyone else has said: 25.

If I'm not mistaken, Ichigo thought Kenpachi must've been wrong about his Zanpaktou, that it couldn't be "without a name" because "all Zanpaktou are alive".

*shrugs*

We'll see who's right in the end. Us 9 or the 25 of you. Regardless, interesting times will be ahead of us.

[Fox_Retainer]

Not really sure to be honest....:S

[Khemical]

I think one of the biggest features for Kenpachi is that he is THAT damn strong and he doesnt even have his shi kai. What happens if we find out he knew it all along? He's still a monster yes, but there would be no shock value. What are we to think when Zaraki finally learns his zanpakutous name and he has had Shi kai all along? I could see it now, Zaraki screams the name of his zanpakutou...and nothing happens. No power increase, no weapon change...nothing. Or, the story goes on with him not knowing his zanpakutou's name/having shi kai, the anticipation builds up, he yells out his name, the appearance changes, he gets a huuuuuuge boost/new abilities and owns.

It would just be too dull if his zanpakutou really is released, that and it contradicts everything we have seen so far about having to call out it's name to release.
(no, I am not trying to say he doesnt have shi kai with this post, simply I think it would really hurt Zaraki's credibility)

[jonat3]

^^ One of the reasons i think Kubo decided to give Zaraki a fulltime released sword, was to demonstrate how similar Zaraki is to ichigo.
Also, we can't have another character be more powerful than the hero himself. If Zaraki's sword was not released, that would imply that Zaraki with a released sword and bankai would be potentially more powerful than our hero.

[monk3]

^^ One of the reasons i think Kubo decided to give Zaraki a fulltime released sword, was to demonstrate how similar Zaraki is to ichigo.
Also, we can't have another character be more powerful than the hero himself. If Zaraki's sword was not released, that would imply that Zaraki with a released sword and bankai would be potentially more powerful than our hero.

but we haven't even decided if its fulltime released or not.............

[Khemical]

^^ One of the reasons i think Kubo decided to give Zaraki a fulltime released sword, was to demonstrate how similar Zaraki is to ichigo.
Also, we can't have another character be more powerful than the hero himself. If Zaraki's sword was not released, that would imply that Zaraki with a released sword and bankai would be potentially more powerful than our hero.


Well, for obvious reasons Zaraki will never be capable of surpassing Ichigo
being a hybrid an all

For someone who neglected his zanpakutou for so long he wont be learning Ban Kai anytime soon, but releasing his zanpakutou would just seem so fitting given the current manga arc. He now has motivation after fighting Ichigo, he has a reason to learn the name. It would just be so badass hearing him scream out a name and seeing the form change. Full time release would just be so dull, he has a plain zanpakutou, every single shinigami that has released their zanpakutou has had it take on a unique shape, it's just tooooo dull!

[Tsukiyomi]

^^ One of the reasons i think Kubo decided to give Zaraki a fulltime released sword, was to demonstrate how similar Zaraki is to ichigo.
Also, we can't have another character be more powerful than the hero himself. If Zaraki's sword was not released, that would imply that Zaraki with a released sword and bankai would be potentially more powerful than our hero.

Similar in what way? The only similarity I see between the two is a massive reiatsu. Ichigo surpassed Kenpachi in terms of raw power, and people Yamamoto were always stronger than Kenpachi even without unleashing their Shikai.

Given the current storyline with the hybrids and vasterodes(sp?) it wouldn't be too far out for Kenpachi to learn his swords name in order to stay in the game.

[jonat3]

Who here wants to see his shikai? Some people want to let Zaraki stay rhe way he is now, but i wouldn't mind a powered up shikai, bankai Zaraki.I bet Zaraki's shikai is energy based, just like Ichigo.

[Tsukiyomi]

I would very much like to see his Shikai, but have it be even more melee based, like perhaps spiked gauntlets like I made in the "make your own Zanpakutou" thread, it would still leave him an animalistic monster.

[Oujisama]

He never said it was shikai. Its just a normal that he doesnt know the name of. Thread over.

[blacklusterseph004]

How did Kenpachi come by his sword? I assume from what I've seen that people who become death gods receive a standard soul slayer when they start training. Through their own spirit pressure (I'm assuming) the standard soul slayer turns into different shikai when they learn its name.

Also, when Renji's soul slayer was broken in the fight against Kuchiki, he was able to reform the sealed blade. Why then is Kenpachi's blade always chipped with almost no usable edge. Surely if it was a soul slayer he could repair the edge?

Also, Kenpachi says that soul slayers cut because the death god focuses their reiatsu into the soul slayer form. He then says he can't do this because his reiatsu is too big. Wouldn't this mean that his sword is just some ordinary sword that doesn't even have released stages? Sorry if these are n00b questions... I'm not exactly a Bleach guru...

[Tsukiyomi]

How did Kenpachi come by his sword? I assume from what I've seen that people who become death gods receive a standard soul slayer when they start training. Through their own spirit pressure (I'm assuming) the standard soul slayer turns into different shikai when they learn its name.

Kenpachi seems to just have his sword, it may have formed on its own in its sealed state or he could have just taken it off of one of the people he killed.

Also, when Renji's soul slayer was broken in the fight against Kuchiki, he was able to reform the sealed blade. Why then is Kenpachi's blade always chipped with almost no usable edge. Surely if it was a soul slayer he could repair the edge?

Yeah, it reforms when it changes shape, it reformed from his fight with Ichigo after going back into its sealed form and back from Byakuya after going from Ban Kai back to its sealed form. The reason the missing chunks of his sword don't come back are probably because its never changed form from its sealed state.

Also, Kenpachi says that soul slayers cut because the death god focuses their reiatsu into the soul slayer form. He then says he can't do this because his reiatsu is too big. Wouldn't this mean that his sword is just some ordinary sword that doesn't even have released stages? Sorry if these are n00b questions... I'm not exactly a Bleach guru...

No, his sword is a Zanpakutou. Zangetsu verified this and Zanpakutou seem capable of recognizing each other, Zangetsu and Ichigo were able to hear its scream, a normal sword wouldn't be capable of screaming to them like that.

[monk3]

He never said it was shikai. Its just a normal that he doesnt know the name of. Thread over.

no the thread is not over. your explanation has no support and what is a 'normal'? if you are talking about a normal sword like all academy students are given, then no. it is obviously a zanpakutou because ichigo and zangetsu could hear its cries.

[sik4rilz]

i think that kenpachi's sword is wutever he says it is. if he says that its shikai it is. if he says its bankai, it is. but he didnt say either of those. i think that he KNOWS the name of his zanpakutou but we havent seen it or he hasnt released it yet.

[jonat3]

I think we've already established that Zaraki did say his sword was released. The argument now is about wether Zaraki's been spouting BS.

[Insipidipity]

And as such, his credibility is definitely in question. He's been so engulfed in his self image about his power that it wouldnt be hard for him to delude himself into thinking thats the true form. Especially since he's never heard his sword despite it screaming. Yoroichi said zanpaktou were all alive and therefore it COULDNT be true that Zaraki's

Heck, we could compare that statement to Ichigo's statement that his Reiatsu is "always on full blast" even though according to Ishida who seems much smarter about Reiatsu and things in general, it must be on its lowest possible state. Now if you were to ask me who's more credible, I don't care if its Ichigo's own power, he most likely doesn't know crap about its true nature. If Kenpachi is considered so powerful, why WOULDN'T he think his sword is "always in its released form". Especially since if he can't hear it and can't really even sense reiatsu, his ability to know the "true form" of his Zanpaktou is more questionable than the fact toted by countless Shinigami who CAN sense reiatsu.

Lets not forget http://sigma.udbzn.com/~dbz/pictures/manga/bleach/chapter127/chapter127_05.jpg
Communication and synchronization are NEEDED to attain the initial release. NEITHER of which Kenpachi has shown. They've explicitly said he can't hear his sword, and he sure as hell doesn't fight with his sword, so it CANT be released.

[Cypher X]

I'm going to have to go with Sealed. Mainly for the fact that if it was unsealed, with the enormous amount of power Kenpachi has, his sword would be much bigger. I mean it's Kenpachi all he'll want is some humungous, powerful sword that could cut through everything =P

[jonat3]

Lets not forget http://sigma.udbzn.com/~dbz/pictures/manga/bleach/chapter127/chapter127_05.jpg
Communication and synchronization are NEEDED to attain the initial release. NEITHER of which Kenpachi has shown. They've explicitly said he can't hear his sword, and he sure as hell doesn't fight with his sword, so it CANT be released.

I think that only applies when you want to USE your shikai.

[Insipidipity]

I think that only applies when you want to USE your shikai.But did you notice she said "acheive" not "use". Acheive means to attain, which means to get it in the first place, use is something thats possible AFTER you achieve something

[jonat3]

But did you notice she said "acheive" not "use". Acheive means to attain, which means to get it in the first place, use is something thats possible AFTER you achieve something

I interpreted it as achieving the attack.

[Insipidipity]

But it says to "achieve the initial release", not "achieve the attack"...you can't interpret something that it says something else that is not synonmous with it.

[jonat3]

But it says to "achieve the initial release", not "achieve the attack"...you can't interpret something that it says something else that is not synonmous with it.

I consider the attack also the initial release.

[monk3]

to have an attack you must have an initial release first. because they always call out their zanpakutous before they perform an attack

[Tsukiyomi]

I consider the attack also the initial release.

You what? How is the release the same thing as something you can do as a result of the release. Thats like me saying an explosion and a bomb are the same thing, they're not.

[jonat3]

When she talked about attaining the shikai, i had the impression she was referring to the attack, that's all. Achieving just the state and not the attack would be useless for Ichigo afterall.

[Nihonjin]

What attack are you guys talking about.....the massive release of energy? (where his eyes turn all blue and stuff)?

If so, what the hell do you think he used to rape the Menos? I doubt his sword stretched like Ichimaru's, so it must have been something similar:omg
If thats the case, there goes your theory >___>

[chakra25]

I'm not sure what is the exact way of attaining Shikai. For Ichigo, he had to talk to Zangetsu and find him hidden somewhere. Ichigo managed to do all of that because he remembered what Ishida said about the Spirit Threads.

For the case of Kenpachi, he never listened to his zanpakuto and he can't detect any spirit energy. Kenpachi only relies on his own strength and he refuses to work with his zanpakuto. That's why there was the screaming because of the conflict between them. After the fight with Ichigo, Kenpachi wanted to become stronger so he wants his shikai. After all the years of ignoring his zanpakuto, the zanpakuto is ignoring Kenpachi.

Kenpachi's soul slayer is definitely in sealed state to me. Why else would he ask his zanpakuto's name? If he knew the name then it means that he was able to release the shikai... Didn't Yoruichi mentioned that Kenpachi was the only captain of the Gotei 13 who doesn't know shikai and bankai?

That's why Ken is so awesome... he can own people without shikai/bankai. I guess later in the series, he'll eventually learn his zanpakuto's name. After all, he's starting to get influenced by Ichigo. Kenpachi + Shikai/Bankai = Major Ownage

[Tsukiyomi]

When she talked about attaining the shikai, i had the impression she was referring to the attack, that's all. Achieving just the state and not the attack would be useless for Ichigo afterall.

No it wouldn't be useless, think back to Yamamoto, Ukitake spoke of how his Shikai brought his Reiatsu to an amazing level just by being released, releasing states of a sword gives you a boost in raw power.

Just releasing Zangetsu would have given him a huge boost in reiatsu, regardless of wether or not he had an attack to begin with.

Thats why Kenpachi is so amazing, his reiatsu is this high without the boost from a Shikai.

[jonat3]

No it wouldn't be useless, think back to Yamamoto, Ukitake spoke of how his Shikai brought his Reiatsu to an amazing level just by being released, releasing states of a sword gives you a boost in raw power.

Just releasing Zangetsu would have given him a huge boost in reiatsu, regardless of wether or not he had an attack to begin with.

Thats why Kenpachi is so amazing, his reiatsu is this high without the boost from a Shikai.

Yeah, but Yamamoto was not only releasing his sword, he was also releasing his ability. Fire is ryuujinjakka's ability.

[Dooh]

I think that Kenpachi is so amazing because Zengetsu said that the sword reduced his reiatsu because they didn't work together, and get he kicks ass^^

[Tsukiyomi]

Yeah, but Yamamoto was not only releasing his sword, he was also releasing his ability. Fire is ryuujinjakka's ability.

Ukitake mentioned how immense his reiatsu was only in Shikai form, then later commented on the attacking power of the Shikai.

You cannot deny that a shinigami receives a reiatsu boost from Shikai, otherwise the 11th divisions melee shikai's wouldn't be much more useful than their sealed swords.

Obtaining Shikai allows you a relationship with your sword, thus allowing you to become instantly stronger. So no, just obtaining a shikai wouldn't be useless.

[jonat3]

Ukitake mentioned how immense his reiatsu was only in Shikai form, then later commented on the attacking power of the Shikai.

You cannot deny that a shinigami receives a reiatsu boost from Shikai, otherwise the 11th divisions melee shikai's wouldn't be much more useful than their sealed swords.

Obtaining Shikai allows you a relationship with your sword, thus allowing you to become instantly stronger. So no, just obtaining a shikai wouldn't be useless.

Perhaps. Not certain how much of a boost you get though. It's pretty hard to judge, since a shinigami can increase the amount of spiritual pressure he's emitting at will. Add in to that that when shinigami unleash their shikai, they unleash the ability too, so it's still hard to determine.

[Tsukiyomi]

Perhaps. Not certain how much of a boost you get though. It's pretty hard to judge, since a shinigami can increase the amount of spiritual pressure he's emitting at will. Add in to that that when shinigami unleash their shikai, they unleash the ability too, so it's still hard to determine.

It has to be a significant amount, it seems to be in terms of multiplication. Such as when Yoruichi said Ban Kai gave a power boost of 5-10 times that of the Shikai.

It was Ichigo's relationship with his Shikai that allowed him to surpass Kenpachi's raw power, that was WITHOUT his shikai blast ability, so a shikai can most definetly give an immense boost over a sealed sword.

[yuenyun]

Me, personally I think it's a shikai x]...

my basis is that Zaraki compares his zanpaktou to Ichigo's and it's said that both Ichigo and Zaraki have no control over their reiatsu, and therefore their zanpaktou are constantly in a released state. It could be a translation error, but I've heard that version from several different places.

[Hellion]

I say sealed, because I haven't read where he said otherwise.

[itchygo]

its obviously sealed. why would they make another ichigo?

[zaraki_ken]

this really make my head dizzy... i read somewhere else and it say zaraki zanpakutou is now in shikai form but somewhere else says it was sealed??

[jonat3]

Released.

Just read chapter 109 and 120. When Zaraki shows his sword in 109, he states : "This is the true form of my soulcutter."

True form can be interpreted in two ways. It becomes obvious which one it is, if you read Ichigo's reply to Yoruichi in chapter 120 when he hears he has a fulltime released sword.

So yes, it has already been stated in the manga that Zaraki has a fulltime released sword.

The databooks also confirm it, so this thread is as good as decided.

[Tsukiyomi]

Released.

Just read chapter 109 and 120. When Zaraki shows his sword in 109, he states : "This is the true form of my soulcutter."

Stated by him, what does he know about his soulcutter? He doesn't know anything. He said it was its true form because it doesn't change, he can't make it change because he is about as out of sync with his soulcutter as a person can be.

The mere fact that he asked it its name after his fight with Ichigo shows that even he started having doubts as to wether or not it really was its true form.

[Esponer]

Stated by him, what does he know about his soulcutter? He doesn't know anything. He said it was its true form because it doesn't change, he can't make it change because he is about as out of sync with his soulcutter as a person can be.
All right. Bleach Official Character Book SOULS, page 258.

Stated by Tite Kubo, what does he know about Zaraki Kenpachi's zanpakutou? He doesn't know anything.

[Tsukiyomi]

All right. Bleach Official Character Book SOULS, page 258.

Care to actually post that page, I don't have that book.

[Esponer]

Care to actually post that page, I don't have that book.
Scanning in the page is out of the question, but the relevant section translates into English as:

Constant-Released Type
Due to the owner's spiritual force, these zanpakutou's take on their "initial release" form at all time. Ichigo's as well as Kenpachi's zanpakutou belong to this.

[HOOfan_1]

Scanning in the page is out of the question, but the relevant section translates into English as:

is this book actually written by Tite Kubo? I have seen info books about a series written before that have completely wrong information. I have also seen an author completely contradict themselves before....what does the info book say about initial release? Does it say something like "obtained when a wielder utters the name of his zanpaktou...see exceptions Constant release?"

Chapter 109 page 16 upper left panel
Zaraki said "this is the only form of my sword"...so since shikai is the second form or initial release I would have to say that pretty much means it is unreleased.

Chapter 120 page 7
Youroichi tells Ichigo that his zanpaktou is always in its initial release form
Ichigo says I see so it is just like Zaraki's

I think this is a misunderstanding by Ichigo or something...but remember that before he trianed with Urahara his zanpaktou did have another form....yet Zaraki stated that his zanpaktou had only one form.

[Esponer]

This really needs to stop. The book was written by Tute Kubo, and is definitely official. It also says without a doubt that Zaraki Kenpachi's zanpakutou is a full-time released zanpakutou. Yes, we have been given the impression that a zanpakutou can only be released if its name is known. We have also heard from Tite Kubo in an official interview that he intends to reveal a lot more about Kenpachi, including who Yachiru was named after. Kenpachi breaks some of the rules (claiming to not know his zanpakutou's name), and the mangaka fully intends to explain to us at a later date how and why.

The zanpakutou is released. It is not a contradiction, it is merely a fact not yet substantiated with a complete explanation of the workings of zanpakutou.

Chapter 109 page 16 upper left panel
Zaraki said "this is the only form of my sword"...so since shikai is the second form or initial release I would have to say that pretty much means it is unreleased.That's fine, but you're not reading everything."This is the only form of my sword. I didn't put any seal on it."
"This… is the true form of my zanpakutou."
…
"The reason why there's no seal… is because my spiritual pressure is so strong that even the strongest seal won't do any good."If you only quote a tiny portion of the text, then of course it won't tell you the entire story. Kenpachi's spiritual pressure is too immense for him to be capable of sealing his zanpakutou, and so it is full-time released. Like Ichigo's.

You might notice there is a logical hole in this information, even though it's official. We have been led to believe other characters with greater reiatsu have sealed zanpakutou. This means a piece of data has not yet been revealed, and it will probably be that it is not just that Ichigo and Kenpachi have immense reiatsu, but that they don't have the power to fully limit their reiatsu. See Isshin's statement about controlling the size of a zanpakutou and Ichigo's inability to do so when unreleased.

Chapter 120 page 7
Youroichi tells Ichigo that his zanpaktou is always in its initial release form
Ichigo says I see so it is just like Zaraki'sCorrect, and mangaka do not have main characters come to false conclusions during a lecture when in front of a knowledgeable figure who does not immediately disagree and explain. Ichigo came to the right conclusion.

[Vicious ♥]

Yachiru is carrying a sword herself, so why would she be his zanpaktou and when he fights people she is just watching o_O

[Eranikus]

Afaik Kenpachi himself pointed out at some point that he didn't know the name... which is essential to achieve shigai. And yoroichi pointed out to Ichigo while training that Kenpachi was the only ever to have achieved captain rank without bankai or even knowing his swords name

[jonat3]

Afaik Kenpachi himself pointed out at some point that he didn't know the name... which is essential to achieve shigai. And yoroichi pointed out to Ichigo while training that Kenpachi was the only ever to have achieved captain rank without bankai or even knowing his swords name

Ummm, the theory about knowing the name is merely a theory. It's merely an assumption made by readers. An assumption that has been proven FALSE with the info the databooks provide us.

[Angel of LoL]

Zanpakutō
Kenpachi Zaraki's zanpakutō has no known name, even to its owner. Kenpachi is the only captain of the Gotei 13 who doesn't know the name of his sword, nor can he use his final release as a result. Even though Kenpachi doesn't know the name of his sword, his spiritual power is so great that his zanpakutō is constantly released.[2] The sword's appearance is a reflection of Kenpachi's own practice of weakening himself to fight: it is a seemingly worn-down and dull blade with a guard that extends inward from its center. The blade is much longer than that of a standard zanpakutō. Despite its appearance, it is quite capable of cutting through most objects thanks to Kenpachi's immense amount of spiritual power. This is demonstrated when Kenpachi stabs straight through Ichigo's zanpakutō.

It appears that after his fight with Ichigo Kurosaki, Kenpachi wishes to learn at least the name of his zanpakutō, because he wants to become stronger and can identify with the pain of not having a name. However, even then, he is not yet capable of communicating with his zanpakutō, and it is implied that he continually tries to learn from his zanpakutō so that he can achieve a new tier of power. Ichigo's zanpakutō, Zangetsu, notes that Kenpachi's disharmony with his sword causes the two to damage each other's power.

Wiki post

[chidikaagu]

Ichigo has more power and potential power than Kenpachi
Why do you say that coz ichigo is the main character do you have a source to prove that if you have show me please.

[ThirteenSins]

Hmm well Im going to think outside the bun here. As someone who has aspired to write manga myself, as a writer you always have to keep the reader guessing in order to pull a great multitude of people to your work. So Im going to throw a couple of formulated theories that you can hack-n-slash.
As far as Kenpachi I think his Zanpakutou cant even really be called one. I believe that it is a degraded version of his original. As we know he hasn't relied on this Zanpakutou as a partner if you will but always as a tool of war and depended upon his own skills and power.

Bleach Episode 39 18:30 -45 seconds into it.
Zangetsu" Can you hear it, Ichigo?... the scream of his sword.
Ichigo" Yeah.
Zangetsu" He cannot hear it. When two who do not trust eachother fight together, they only damage each other's power.

This brings me to believe that Kenpachis' Zanpakutou is a degraded version of its orginal standard Zanpakutou form. Therefore not even a Shikai, out of his murderous intent and pure will to fight and kill and his unwillingness to rely on his Zanpakutou had produced that sword. His reitsu and his swords power continually clashing produced its state. Also his inability to control his spiritual energies come into play I believe. His inablilty to control it and suppress it due to his "I dont care about anything I just want to fight" attitude and lack of willpower to do so makes it near impossible to hear or travel to the plain of his Zanpakutou to even find out its name.

Continuing on with this theory is that Yachiru is infact his Zanpakutou. As we have seen Zangetsu do many times and appear before Ichigo of his own free will, Yachiru constantly appears before him and is practically near him at all times, with the exception of running away to lead others from danger and immediately going back to Kenpachi's side. I also think it interesting that he found her out of the blue as a child, I dont know if Zanpakutou age. If they indeed aged then it could be said that Yachiru was the infant form of his Zanpakutou. Which could make sense, she has looked young for quite some time, and his Zanpakutou hasnt changed much at all. I guess to say that the manifested Yachiru that is always at his side is a degraded form of her former self, and that if Kenpachi ever learned to unite with his sword instead of fighting against it and degrading it she would to change. Maybe even vanish back into the plain that exist within his sword. I also find the fact that he named her in her infancy interesting. Maybe if she was the degraded form of his Zanpakutou and renamed. What would that intel?

Im not saying its right but Im saying it could fit in with the storyline be explained entirely I believe and make the story worthwhile with many twist and turns. It would also intel that Kenpachis power is unfathomable, if his Zanpakutou was indeed not even really one but a ruined one. Even for him to achieve his Zanpakutou standard form would boost his power dramatically. Then if he could continue on to Shikai and BanKai it would mean he would be one of the strongest characters in the storyline, onpar with Aizen or even stronger would be predicted. It seems logical to have Ichigo fight Aizen then when it seems his techinique was off to be saved by a stronger Shikai'd Kenpachi, or maybe even degraded then to flash his new sword mid battle to surprise Aizen then Bankai as a finisher could take up to 3-4 episodes of story and anime action sequences. Ichigo could then go on to fight some stronger or unknown character pulling the strings behind Aizen. Seldom is the the "Head Man" viewed so early in anime like this. It usually is someone manipulating or mind controlling or the person who is viewed to be the headman just pure evil with killer intent in his heart, willing to help and align with a stronger evil.

Sorry for spelling and grammar, Im chinese still trying to learn english.

[Q45]

It is in Shikai

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/ proves tha his sword is indeed in Shikai like Ichigo's and because of their high spiritual pressure it can't be sealed

[Kamishiro Yuki]

I think it's sealed. :oh. Sadly :cry

[jonat3]

I think it's sealed. :oh. Sadly :cry

Read the thread for crying out loud. It's RELEASED and it has been proven.

[dreams lie]

Read the thread for crying out loud. It's RELEASED and it has been proven.

I can't get over the shock of how many people voting sealed. =[

[jonat3]

I can't get over the shock of how many people voting sealed. =[

It's because of that infernal theory about the name. It gained popularity to the point people even believed it was literally stated in the manga. It brainwashed people to the point that they chose to ignore literal statements from Zaraki himself.

Never EVER dismiss a character's statements out of hand. Authors usually let characters speak the truth, until they prove otherwise.

[Ichi~Rukiafan]

It is a full time released sword, as stated by Zaraki & confirmed by Ichigo. If it was sealed, it couldn't have measured up to the power of Ichigo's full time released zanpakutou.

[CrimsonStone]

Ok so donno if this has been posted or not didn't bother to read the whole thread but the should wrap up any fogginess.
DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVENT SEEN 5 OR SO EPISODES PAST BATTLE BETWEEN ICHIGO AND KENPACHI:notrust
I do not want to get banned on my first post. Donno if this will get me banned but I want to clear this subject up because of all the anger and confusion it is causing.

1st Kenpachis sword IS NOT RELEASED it is sealed:amuse. 2nd he doesn't know the name of his sword:nod. 3rd he never finds out the name of his sword because he (I'm pretty sure) dies after his fight with Ichigo:cry. 4th he says to Ichigo during their fight that he (ICHIGO) is weak because he relies on his zanpaktou:mad.

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVENT SEEN 10 OR SO EPISODES PAST BATTLE BETWEEN ICHIGO AND KENPACHI:notrust

Finally after Ichigo faces Byakuya. Uroichi comes and takes him away for training. She then explains about shikai and bankai. And how to become a captain one has to master both. And that Kenpachi was the only soulreaper to ever become a captain without mastering shikai or bankai.

[CrimsonStone]

It is in Shikai

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/ proves tha his sword is indeed in Shikai like Ichigo's and because of their high spiritual pressure it can't be sealed

HAHAHA noob:wink. This guy just proved it. It is sealed. Read to page ten of that chapter and you will learn the truth. Uroichi Specificly says

onquote "Every captain can perform ban release..... with one exception Zaraki Kenpachi." unquote

onquote "In the long history of soul society. He is the only one who has become captain without even knowing the name of his soul cutter." unquote

[CrimsonStone]

yeah but Zaraki never listened to his sword, so how could he figure out the name to call it out? because no shinigami we have seen so far has had a zanpakutou that they didn't call out at some point in time

Actually just before Kenpachi dies he asks his sword to tell him its name so that he could become stronger.:( Then he dies.:cry Poor Yachiru no more kenny.:cry

[Solar Bankai]

You claim to have seen 10 episodes past the fight...then surely you have seen the point where Kenpachi agrees to help Orihime?

I assure you, the sword is released and is in shikai form, simply lacking ability. 100% confirmed by Bleach Databooks, confirmed again by Kenpachi who CLEARLY stated that there was no seal strong enough to seal his Zanpakuto.

Read the thread and watch/read more Bleach before saying the sword is sealed, for it is not.

[JanusDage]

Ok so donno if this has been posted or not didn't bother to read the whole thread but the should wrap up any fogginess.
DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVENT SEEN 5 OR SO EPISODES PAST BATTLE BETWEEN ICHIGO AND KENPACHI:notrust
I do not want to get banned on my first post. Donno if this will get me banned but I want to clear this subject up because of all the anger and confusion it is causing.

1st Kenpachis sword IS NOT RELEASED it is sealed:amuse. 2nd he doesn't know the name of his sword:nod. 3rd he never finds out the name of his sword because he (I'm pretty sure) dies after his fight with Ichigo:cry. 4th he says to Ichigo during their fight that he (ICHIGO) is weak because he relies on his zanpaktou:mad.

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVENT SEEN 10 OR SO EPISODES PAST BATTLE BETWEEN ICHIGO AND KENPACHI:notrust

Finally after Ichigo faces Byakuya. Uroichi comes and takes him away for training. She then explains about shikai and bankai. And how to become a captain one has to master both. And that Kenpachi was the only soulreaper to ever become a captain without mastering shikai or bankai.

I want to hit you...He doesn't die you poor poor sub watching fool.
I personally believe that his sword has been rendered insane due to his ignoring it for so long, but that's debatable.
Probably already settled but honest to god this is a superbly ignorant post I have quoted above:
It's released, a full time released form sword. the swords can be released without knowing Shikai. Shikai is not just knowing the name of the sword, it is having it as an ally. Bankai is simply mastering your weapon.
It's quite easily to take a metaphysical approach to the mythos behind Shinigami, and so I did.
Argue with me if you want...but seriously...you shouldn't be allowed to post on a series unless you have watched it up to the current plot arc.

Baka.

[JanusDage]

HAHAHA noob:wink. This guy just proved it. It is sealed. Read to page ten of that chapter and you will learn the truth. Uroichi Specificly says

onquote "Every captain can perform ban release..... with one exception Zaraki Kenpachi." unquote

onquote "In the long history of soul society. He is the only one who has become captain without even knowing the name of his soul cutter." unquote

Dumbass.
That's all I can say to you...
Dumbass.

[adil]

its in shikai, he just cant use special atacks, ... hilts and guars change dont they when they're in shikai form?

[woohooitsbrenda]

I believe it is sealed.

[Solar Bankai]

I just DONT GET IT when people come onto this thread and say, "I believe it is sealed".

DATABOOKS PEOPLE!

They confirm what is already stated in the Manga. Kenpachi's sword has no seal, and is in Shikai Form PERMANENTLY.

[dreams lie]

I just DONT GET IT when people come onto this thread and say, "I believe it is sealed".

DATABOOKS PEOPLE!

They confirm what is already stated in the Manga. Kenpachi's sword has no seal, and is in Shikai Form PERMANENTLY.

80% of our population in NF are postwhores. They will read the title, maybe the opening post, then spam whatever that is on their mind.

[Kusogitsune]

Perma shikai.

[peryy]

lol its sealed.

[jonat3]

lol its sealed.

I hope you are joking.

[Aokiji]

But hw can it be shikai if he doesn't know it's name?

[dreams lie]

I hope you are joking.

He's proving my point. :LOS

[jonat3]

But hw can it be shikai if he doesn't know it's name?

Simply because the THEORY about knowing the name was never true to begin with. Or not as absolute as was believed. It was only ever a theory (and not fact) that the name was necesary for shikai.

The name does have some importance, but IMO, it has more to do with making techniques easier to do or making it easier to pull out more power. It's still possible to communicate with a stranger, but knowing their name would sure make such easier to do.

He's proving my point. :LOS

It would be the greatest irony if he really WAS serious.

[Nihonjin]

How the hell can ANYONE argue thats his Shikai?
There's absolutely no bases for it :notrust

[dreams lie]

How the hell can ANYONE argue thats his Shikai?
There's absolutely no bases for it :notrust

:rotfl :rotfl

[Shurix]

Simply because the THEORY about knowing the name was never true to begin with. Or not as absolute as was believed. It was only ever a theory (and not fact) that the name was necesary for shikai.

The name does have some importance, but IMO, it has more to do with making techniques easier to do or making it easier to pull out more power. It's still possible to communicate with a stranger, but knowing their name would sure make such easier to do.



It would be the greatest irony if he really WAS serious.

You got a point there, but as stated by Zangatsu or Ichigo's alter ego, "you can't become friends with someone you just met," because if someone just calls out a zanpaktuo's name, does not mean you have it fully mastered to its full potential, you got to understand him/her/it and work with them, it could be the same thing with Kenpachi where he really doesn't take the time to learn about his zanpaktuo, but he could be well fully at a permanent shikai state without knowing, or just really pumped up with reiatsu?

[Aokiji]

Can you even achieve shikai without knowing it's name?

[Shurix]

No, you have to at least know its name, to achieve its form, but even then, your not as strong as you should be, unless you got to know them hand to hand.

[jonat3]

Zaraki is living proof that you can achieve shikai without the name. He really has a permanent shikai sword. He stated this himself and the databooks confirmed it.

[Shurix]

Zaraki is living proof that you can achieve shikai without the name. He really has a permanent shikai sword. He stated this himself and the databooks confirmed it.

I don't remember that, from which chapter?

[jonat3]

I don't remember that, from which chapter?

When Zaraki fought Ichigo in chapter 109, he said his sword had no seal put on it and it was his sword's "true form". True form can be interpreted several ways, but combined with his statement that his sword had no seal on it AND Ichigo's comment in chapter 120, it becomes apparent that zaraki's meaning was that his sword had no sealed form (thus a permanent shikai).

In chapter 120, Yoruichi explains to Ichigo that he has a fulltime released shikai sword. Ichigo replies: "That's just like Zaraki's". Ichigo knew Zaraki had a fulltime released shikai sword, cause Zaraki told him so in chapter 109.

Now, any doubt whasoever about the state of Zaraki's sword is wiped away by THE DATABOOKS. They specifically state that Zaraki has a fulltime released SHIKAI sword.

The theory about knowing the name is hereby FALSE. Or atleast, not as absolute as believed.

[Shurix]

So some zanpaktuo are made with no seals to begin with, and with Kenpachi's massive reiatsu, it automatically releases and it permanently keeps it there. I guess there is more then one way to release a zanpaktuo at a shikai state. But it all depends on your sword. Still it wouldn't hurt to know its name at least.

[Aokiji]

Help please. (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=12922172&postcount=22)

[Shurix]

Well he is right about the communication part, but every zanpaktuo is different depending on the shinigami's personality and you got to remember that ichigos bankai, looks just like an average zanpaktuo. I'd say form doesn't have to do with anything, it can be whatever it wants in a release state. And maybe Kenpachi has slightly better control on the reiatsu then Ichigo does, as he is a captain.

[diamondedge]

It's RELEASED, because of his massive spirit force he can't control.

It has been said over 10000 times, Zaraki is fighting with shikai, end of discussion.

[Jaruddd]

It's RELEASED, because of his massive spirit force he can't control.

It has been said over 10000 times, Zaraki is fighting with shikai, end of discussion.

It has been said over ten thousand times, but nobody has come to anything conclusive. I don't think a discussion can be ended without a consensus, at least not one of this type.

Zaraki is living proof that you can achieve shikai without the name. He really has a permanent shikai sword. He stated this himself and the databooks confirmed it.

I looked through the entire thread, reading your arguments from quite a while back, and how you condescend other people on terms of reading comprehension. Kinda mean, really ;~;

There are a couple of things I'd like to bring to the table on this. First, I'd like to say that everyone should know everything we say is based upon speculation. Until something is specifically released, we don't know, regardless of how avid and comprehensive readers we are.

First I would like to bring attention to the actual Zanpakutoh, and notice how damaged it is.

http://i2.tinypic.com/6pppe39.jpg

If you remember correctly, a Zanpakutoh with spirit force infused with it shouldn't be damaged like that. In the temporary instances which have shown such a case, the Zanpakutoh was "healed" upon its next presence. Zanpakutoh can be said to be somewhat living in their nature, and I'm sure they're capable of "healing" just as their masters do.

This suggests something. First one being, why can't Kurosaki break Zaraki's Zanpakutoh? I mean, it would have to be released in order to stand a chance, right? Kurosaki's was cut easily by Renji's released Zabimaru. Perhaps Zaraki is neither released nor sealed. This would explain why he says he wields his Zanpakutoh's true form, and why he also says it is not sealed. This would make him somewhat similar to a sealed-form Arrancar/Espada. I think Zaraki is capable of pumping his reiatsu through his Zanpakutoh as a means of giving it durability and sturdiness, but not knowing its name restricts it from healing itself as well as using any special abilities.

As for Kurosaki's comment in Chapter 120 about his sword being like Zaraki's, I think it should be excluded. Everyone holds remembrance when they come by something unusual. Kurosaki didn't know the difference between his sword and Zaraki's at the time, and even so, if my theory is correct about it being somewhere in between, it would still somewhat fit.

The sword is half-way released. It shares the characteristic of holding reiatsu as a means of remaining solid, but its unable to repair fractures or use special abilities, or even give Zaraki and energy boost.

[jonat3]

It has been said over ten thousand times, but nobody has come to anything conclusive. I don't think a discussion can be ended without a consensus, at least not one of this type.

Nobody came to something conclusive UNTIL THE LAST SEVERAL PAGES THAT IS.



I looked through the entire thread, reading your arguments from quite a while back, and how you condescend other people on terms of reading comprehension. Kinda mean, really ;~;

Was i a little bit mean? Perhaps. But i have damn good reason to think that people have bad reading comprehension. Especially since THIS IS NOT SPECULATION ANYMORE. And if you had really read through the entire thread, you should have realized this. Just look at how many people thought Zaraki's sword was sealed compared to how many people thought it's in shikai. That's 82 people who are flat out WRONG.

There are a couple of things I'd like to bring to the table on this. First, I'd like to say that everyone should know everything we say is based upon speculation. Until something is specifically released, we don't know, regardless of how avid and comprehensive readers we are.

True, in the beginning of the thread, it may have been speculation. This is no longer the case. The DATABOOKS specifically state that Zaraki's sword is a fulltime released sword. There's your proof right there. You can't argue with the official databooks.

The sad thing is, the databooks shouldn't really have been necesary to prove what i have been saying. The manga should have been more than evidence enough.

[Insipidipity]

What's sketchy is his claim that his reiatsu is so strong even the strongest seal wouldn't work, given that
1. Ichigo, Yamamoto, and Aizen have all had their zanpaktous sealed in the past yet have incredible reiatsu.
2. When Ichigo's power was going out of control and about to destroy his body after fighting the first Menos Grande, it just started warping, it didn't unseal.
3. There was previously a ban(that was lifted when Aizen was supposedly killed) on releasing one's zanpaktou in Seireitei during the SS arc.
4. He was asking for it's name after his fight.
Even if he was right about the sword being released, he doesn't seem like he actually knew what he was talking about.

[Supa Swag]

How the hell can ANYONE argue thats his Shikai?
There's absolutely no bases for it :notrust

lol, because the databook is shit! :zaru

[jonat3]

What's sketchy is his claim that his reiatsu is so strong even the strongest seal wouldn't work, given that
1. Ichigo, Yamamoto, and Aizen have all had their zanpaktous sealed in the past yet have incredible reiatsu.

It's all about talent. Zaraki just started out with a heck load of reiatsu, instead of just gradually building it up. In such a case, it's more difficult to learn control, since sealing the sword depends on control IMO.

2. When Ichigo's power was going out of control and about to destroy his body after fighting the first Menos Grande, it just started warping, it didn't unseal.

Well, they were still Rukia's powers, which might make things a little different for him.

3. There was previously a ban(that was lifted when Aizen was supposedly killed) on releasing one's zanpaktou in Seireitei during the SS arc.

Zaraki has his eyepatch, which may allow him to walk in SS during the ban. Not to mention that he can't use the ability.


4. He was asking for it's name after his fight.
Even if he was right about the sword being released, he doesn't seem like he actually knew what he was talking about.

Well, since the databooks confirm it, it seems he did know what he was talking about.

[Psyfo - Shinobi]

Yup it really is shikai, it isn't a conventional sealed sword.

What happens is that zaraki is unable to seal the sword like ichigo because of his spirit force so his blade is in shikai most definately but he does not have the power of his shikai due to the lacking connection with the zanpakutou. It's like having equipment and not being able to operate it. :)

Ichigo is the same, his zanpakutou was never sealed from the beginning, the sword he previously had was that containing rukias power but was destroyed and only when he learnt zangetsu's name did he obtain his new cleaver as well as zangetsu's power.

[Psyfo - Shinobi]

First I would like to bring attention to the actual Zanpakutoh, and notice how damaged it is.

http://i2.tinypic.com/6pppe39.jpg

If you remember correctly, a Zanpakutoh with spirit force infused with it shouldn't be damaged like that. In the temporary instances which have shown such a case, the Zanpakutoh was "healed" upon its next presence. Zanpakutoh can be said to be somewhat living in their nature, and I'm sure they're capable of "healing" just as their masters do.

This suggests something. First one being, why can't Kurosaki break Zaraki's Zanpakutoh? I mean, it would have to be released in order to stand a chance, right? Kurosaki's was cut easily by Renji's released Zabimaru. Perhaps Zaraki is neither released nor sealed. This would explain why he says he wields his Zanpakutoh's true form, and why he also says it is not sealed. This would make him somewhat similar to a sealed-form Arrancar/Espada. I think Zaraki is capable of pumping his reiatsu through his Zanpakutoh as a means of giving it durability and sturdiness, but not knowing its name restricts it from healing itself as well as using any special abilities.

As for Kurosaki's comment in Chapter 120 about his sword being like Zaraki's, I think it should be excluded. Everyone holds remembrance when they come by something unusual. Kurosaki didn't know the difference between his sword and Zaraki's at the time, and even so, if my theory is correct about it being somewhere in between, it would still somewhat fit.

The sword is half-way released. It shares the characteristic of holding reiatsu as a means of remaining solid, but its unable to repair fractures or use special abilities, or even give Zaraki and energy boost.

Quite right my man, however the reason his sword looks damaged is due to the clashing conciousness or personalities if you like between him and his zanpakuto which zangetsu even says causes them to damage each other, as a result the sword is rugged and his reiatsu although large is not stable and focused or tempered. :)

As for the reason ichigo couldn't cut his zanpakutou, do you remember that a zanpakutou will literally become sharper depending on your resolve, that means if you truly want to cut and are focused you will definately cut, however ichigo was scared at the time and did not have confidence in his and zangetsu's power that's why initially he couldn't even cut zaraki's body never mind his zanpakutou.

Zaraki on the other wants to cut and he knows that zanpakutou released or not will cut depending on your reiatsu and resolved, did you see him slice that building when he took his eyepatch off, damn :huh

I like your terminology of the sword being halfway release since it's just the shikai form zanpakutou (body) without the power of the spirit inside helping him.

[Teach]

It is in shikai state, however if he harmonize with it, he'll basically get a 2 powerups.

1. They damaged each other, by harmonizing they won't any longer.
2. They will work together, possibly getting new abilities.

If he harmonizes with it, Zaraki will own even more.

[Ooter]

He needs to learn its name and he'l own.

[piccun²]

It's in shikai.

[Uberjjk]

I think that his Zanpaktou is released.

to those who said that his statement of having too much spiritual power to seal his and how others have more. i say: It is possible that Kenpachis power was so strong when he gained his Zanpaktou (would help if we knew how one gained a Zanpaktou) that it could not be sealed/ seal itself. so it was forced into been unsealed with out the relation between user and sword that is required. this caused the Zanpaktou great pain, hence why it was screaming at Kenpachi to know its name, because it was been hurt for so long.

[Jetstorm]

It is in constant Shikai release. He just doesn't know the name so he can't do anything fancy with it but swing it around like the warmonger he is.

[SchmoozingWouter]

seriously Uberjjk... please put the shovel away... :facepalm
It is in constant Shikai release. He just doesn't know the name so he can't do anything fancy with it but swing it around like the bad ass he is.
^fixed :amuse, but yet this thread has already been resolved by Kubo and the series.
Wikipedia : Zaraki Kenpachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenpachi_Zaraki)
Kenpachi does not know the name of his zanpakutō, and is the only captain in the history of the Gotei 13 who cannot perform bankai. Despite not knowing its name, his zanpakutō is constantly released due to his immense spiritual pressure (Similar to Ichigo's Zangetsu). The sword's appearance is a reflection of Kenpachi's own practice of weakening himself to fight: it is a seemingly worn-down and dull blade with a guard that extends inward from its center.

[gunnerjames]

Good old Wiki, :P has all the answers to lifes problems smile-big

[SchmoozingWouter]

ok... well if you want it straight from the mouth of Kenpachi, here you go :amuse
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/16.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/17.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/18.jpg

[PDQ]

ok... well if you want it straight from the mouth of Kenpachi, here you go :amuse
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/16.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/17.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/18.jpg
The problem was that that could've just been his perception. A guy who doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou isn't that credible to talk about whether his sword is sealed or not. From his own words he seems to be under the impression that you need to seal it yourself. "I didn't put any seal on it"
Yet we know Ichigo didn't put any seal on his first Zanpaktou when he first got it and when he got his new shinigami powers during Urahara's training. Yet he was using his sealed shikai. So at the very least, even if he's right, he's right for the wrong reasons as he seems terribly misinformed. He even seemed to be under the impression that sufficient reiatsu could make it impossible to seal when we've seen that that simply isn't true. He also claims his zanpaktou has no name, despite the fact that he asks for it later, contradicting his own claim. Also he calls it his true form when he doesn't even use Bankai(which is the actual true form)

So he's wrong about
1. His zanpaktou not having a name
2. His zanpaktou needing him to seal it
3. His reiatsu being too much to seal it
4. His zanpaktou being the true form

Someone who makes 4 demonstrably flawed claims about his own zanpaktou sealing really isn't the best person to trust about whether it's sealed or not.

[SchmoozingWouter]

The problem was that that could've just been his perception. A guy who doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou isn't that credible to talk about whether his sword is sealed or not.
I guess I fail to see how knowing its name has anything to do with knowing whether it is sealed or not :headscrat

From his own words he seems to be under the impression that you need to seal it yourself. "I didn't put any seal on it"
After it is released you must reseal it when you bring it out of shikai... thus after the first time in shikai he was not able to seal it. (see explanation of constant release-type zanpakutō below)

Yet we know Ichigo didn't put any seal on his first Zanpaktou when he first got it and when he got his new shinigami powers during Urahara's training. Yet he was using his sealed shikai.
No, since at the time he was unable to communicate with his zanpakutō wield a nameless version known as asauchi.
http://www.vv-guild.net/files/Asauchi.JPGIts just that he was so bad at controlling his spiritual power he could not control the size of it, thus it was very large.
http://www.vv-guild.net/files/isshinzan2.JPG

So at the very least, even if he's right, he's right for the wrong reasons as he seems terribly misinformed. He even seemed to be under the impression that sufficient reiatsu could make it impossible to seal when we've seen that that simply isn't true.
No, it is true... there is a "sub-type" of zanpakutō classification known as the constant release-type. This group pertains to zanpakutō whose wielders are unable to revert them back to their default sealed states after initiating their shikai. This is mainly due to the vast spiritual power of the sword's wielder that they are unable to completely seal their zanpakutō like any other Shinigami. Ichigo Kurosaki and Zaraki Kenpachi are the only two known to have the constant release-type, both of which have tremendous spiritual power exceeding that of a normal Captain-class Shinigami.

He also claims his zanpaktou has no name, despite the fact that he asks for it later, contradicting his own claim.
As far as he knew at the time... it didn't have a name. This fit better with his character since at one time he didn't have a name himself.

Also he calls it his true form when he doesn't even use Bankai(which is the actual true form)
You are just misinterpreting what he is saying on this part. When he says it is his zanpakutō true form, all he is saying is that it is not in it's sealed form

So he's wrong about
1. His zanpaktou not having a name
2. His zanpaktou needing him to seal it
3. His reiatsu being too much to seal it
4. His zanpaktou being the true form

Didn't know it's name, so as far as he knew it didn't have one.
You have to reseal it once after releasing it.
It's the same reason that Ichigo has a permanent shikai as well
For him that is it's true form (non sealed)

Someone who makes 4 demonstrably flawed claims about his own zanpaktou sealing really isn't the best person to trust about whether it's sealed or not.
And if you still don't believe me, I saved the best for last :amuse
http://www.vv-guild.net/files/IchKen.JPG

[PDQ]

I guess I fail to see how knowing its name has anything to do with knowing whether it is sealed or not :headscrat

Because you have to know whether its name to release it in the first place.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/20/
Byakuya indicates that you'd have to have achieved Bankai to do so (that's the only thing you can logically infer he's asking given the context).

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/127/05/
You NEED communication with your shikai to achieve the initial release. Kenpachi can't talk to his.

After it is released you must reseal it when you bring it out of shikai... thus after the first time in shikai he was not able to seal it. (see explanation of constant release-type zanpakutō below)

It also reseals automatically when the user loses consciousness.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/89/12/
Which it didn't do when Kenpachi was unconscious:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/114/08/

Not to mention Kenpachi didn't say he couldn't REseal it, he said he didn't put any seal on it. That implies that he thinks he would need to have done so in the first place not something he couldn't do later on.

No, since at the time he was unable to communicate with his zanpakutō wield a nameless version known as asauchi.

Kenpachi also can't communicate with his zanpaktou so he would wield an asauchi then too...

No, it is true... there is a "sub-type" of zanpakutō classification known as the constant release-type. This group pertains to zanpakutō whose wielders are unable to revert them back to their default sealed states after initiating their shikai. This is mainly due to the vast spiritual power of the sword's wielder that they are unable to completely seal their zanpakutō like any other Shinigami. Ichigo Kurosaki and Zaraki Kenpachi are the only two known to have the constant release-type, both of which have tremendous spiritual power exceeding that of a normal Captain-class Shinigami.

Yet Aizen and Yamamoto seem perfectly capable of doing so. It's never been established WHY Ichigo can't seal his sword, just that he can't.


Didn't know it's name, so as far as he knew it didn't have one.
You have to reseal it once after releasing it.
It's the same reason that Ichigo has a permanent shikai as well
For him that is it's true form (non sealed)



A big reason to not trust his credibility.
Kenpachi didn't say he couldn't reseal it, he said he didn't put a seal on it. As though he needed to do so from the start
It's never been established that's why Ichigo has one. We know people who've shown more reiatsu who can seal their shikai.


And if you still don't believe me, I saved the best for last :amuse
http://www.vv-guild.net/files/IchKen.JPG
I figured you'd be naive enough to use that as an example.
Funny how it's Ichigo, the greatest newbie among Shinigami, who was the one who mentioned it, rather than Yoruichi. Yoruichi just mentioned it's existence, she didn't name anyone other than Ichigo nor give any reason.

[SchmoozingWouter]

You really have to have it said blatantly and directly regardless if it comes out sounding awkward don't you? It seems you won't be satisfied any other way huh?

You read:
"This is my swords true form" and take that to mean his sword is still sealed even when we know true form = shikai

It makes me wonder how you interpret the likes of:
"I didn't put any seal on it"
"even the strongest seal won't do any good"

Do you just ignore them at face value without acknowledging any kind of meaning? You wouldn't put a seal on something that's already sealed.

We know zanpakutō are unconsciously sealed and must be consciously unsealed. The only exception thus far is for the only two characters who have full time shikai.

What more do you want? Ichigo even compares his zanpakutō to Kenpachi's the very second that Yoruichi tells him it's a "constant release type" how does that not register to you at all? If he were wrong she would have said that this wasn't right and Ichigo's was different from his.

[BAD BD]

It is shikai .

[PDQ]

You really have to have it said blatantly and directly regardless if it comes out sounding awkward don't you? It seems you won't be satisfied any other way huh?

No, I just need it to come from a credible source. Like Yoruichi confirming Ichigo's claim that Kenpachi had a permanent zanpaktou

You read:
"This is my swords true form" and take that to mean his sword is still sealed even when we know true form = shikai

No, true form is bankai, not sealed or shikai. I don't take it to mean that, I compare his credibility with others credibility when they make contradictory remarks about releasing and sealing zanpaktou.

When he says it has no name and then on the same day asks for the name of his zanpaktou, you know his credibility on the truth about his zanpaktou is shattered. If someone claims Zeus doesn't exist, then makes all sorts of other truthclaims about Zeus, and then later in the day says "Zeus help me!", would you say "Oh even though he admitted he was wrong about Zeus's existence, we can assume everything else he said about him was true"?

It makes me wonder how you interpret the likes of:
"I didn't put any seal on it"
"even the strongest seal won't do any good"

Do you just ignore them at face value without acknowledging any kind of meaning? You wouldn't put a seal on something that's already sealed.

Once again, Kenpachi's words are like Naruto's, blatantly unreliable in almost all situations regarding zanpaktou/ninjutsu.

I don't ignore them, I compare them to other claims and facts. Facts like Yamamoto's and Aizen's reiatsu being almost certainly above Kenpachi's yet seals work for them just fine.

We know zanpakutō are unconsciously sealed and must be consciously unsealed. The only exception thus far is for the only two characters who have full time shikai.

From what we've seen, everyone starts off with a sealed Zanpaktou, an Asauchi, and Kenpachi apparently can't consciously unseal because he failed the requirements Yoruichi herself said.

What more do you want? Ichigo even compares his zanpakutō to Kenpachi's the very second that Yoruichi tells him it's a "constant release type" how does that not register to you at all? If he were wrong she would have said that this wasn't right and Ichigo's was different from his.
She didn't say he was right. You don't always correct noobs about their speculation when there's bigger things at hand like learning Bankai and saving Rukia. If he didn't get it when she said that you need to be able to communicate with your zanpaktou for shikai(which Kenpachi clearly couldn't), then why would she feel the need to repeat herself for every ignorant remark he makes?

Ichigo is also like Kenpachi and Naruto, unreliable sources of information.

Do you honestly not understand this principle of "If one person makes a claim, and another person makes a contradicting claim, the person with more knowledge/authority/credibility on the subject is the one you believe"? Do you seriously take everyone's word at face value no matter how much it contradicts more knowledgeable people comments?

[Solar Bankai]

This argument remains pointless, since the Bleach Databook confirms that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai state.

[Tomoya]

Sealed. It has no abilities to suggest that it's in a shikai state.

[SchmoozingWouter]

Sealed. It has no abilities to suggest that it's in a shikai state.

wtf did you just completly ignore Solar Bankai's post?
This argument remains pointless, since the Bleach Databook confirms that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai state.

[Tomoya]

Ah, my bad. I didn't read all the posts. :lmao

[SchmoozingWouter]

Ah, my bad. I didn't read all the posts. :lmao

np yo :hug iz all gud :amuse

[atomsk156]

I agree that it's in permanant shikai

[knownastheone]

Dude its sealed...remember when he got beat down after Ichigo dug into his ass and he held his Zanpaktou up and begged for it to tell him its name..and it didnt and he laughed at it...and this is AFTER he claimed that this was its actual form...he just dont know the name....its sealed

u need to know its name in order to get it to shikai..so please tell me how is it in shikai????

[Sen]

It's supposedly in Shikai form because Kenpachi is so powerful, spirit pressure wise, that it was forced to assume Shikai form. (His constant spirit pressure keeps it that way constantly). Ichigo's sword also is stuck in Shikai form because he has such a large spirit pressure as well. Kenpachi didn't need to know it's name though, probably because he seems to have more spirit pressure.

Personally I think it's in permanent Shikai as Kenpachi claimed.

[NaelokQ]

Kenpachi has a shikai. :pek It's like Ichigo's shikai.

[SchmoozingWouter]

It's supposedly in Shikai form because Kenpachi is so powerful, spirit pressure wise, that it was forced to assume Shikai form. (His constant spirit pressure keeps it that way constantly). Ichigo's sword also is stuck in Shikai form because he has such a large spirit pressure as well. Kenpachi didn't need to know it's name though, probably because he seems to have more spirit pressure.

Personally I think it's in permanent Shikai as Kenpachi claimed.

QFT this is the way it is :zaru

[Vaz]

Shikai state, hence the unusual guard and blade. His montruous reiatsu simply forces the zanpakutou into staying in it's release state despite Kenpachi not knowing it's name, meaning he is not using it at it's full power. A perfect example of this is his fight with Noitra, just by using the simplest kendo tecnhique he was able to channel his reiatsu in a more effective way and kill the arrancar with one blow. That's I loved the fight and why I love the guy, he's a powerhouse already yet he has so much room to develop.

Me wonders why he wasn't forced out a bankai out of the goddamn sword. Maybe Kubo thinks it's too awesome to show just yet...

[jonat3]

Shouldn't this thread be dead already? All possible arguments regarding the state of Zaraki's sword have already been dealt with in prior posts.

Unless you guys are willing to contest the databooks itself, anyone arguing that Zaraki's sword is sealed has no leg to stand on.

[Binary]

Sealed.. :zaru

[ArAshI-sensei]

Kenpachi's blade is sealed, if it wasn't why would the blade be chipped?

[jonat3]

Sealed.. :zaru

Kenpachi's blade is sealed, if it wasn't why would the blade be chipped?

:huh

Just read the thread first before replying.

[SchmoozingWouter]

:huh

Just read the thread first before replying.

QFT there is no point to this thread anymore since the data book has already stated that it is a permanent shikai... :facepalm

[Itachi^]

It is released all the time do to his uncontrollable spirit pressure

[TrueSalvation]

Yeah its in permanent shikai. This thread really has no point since its been stated as fact. I guess it could just be locked and stickyed so if anyone is unsure they can check it out.

[SchmoozingWouter]

Yeah its in permanent shikai. This thread really has no point since its been stated as fact. I guess it could just be locked and stickyed so if anyone is unsure they can check it out.
QFT I vote for lock and sticky as well :del

[Luci]

Sorry, I know this is probably dead and I'm bumping it.

But there is one thing most people haven't taking into consideration . . . but what if Yachiru was Kenpachi's sword? You know how the sword's spirit can manifest itself?

Farfetched I know, I just thought I'd engrave this into your minds to ponder about.

[Oujisama]

Sorry, I know this is probably dead and I'm bumping it.

But there is one thing most people haven't taking into consideration . . . but what if Yachiru was Kenpachi's sword? You know how the sword's spirit can manifest itself?

Farfetched I know, I just thought I'd engrave this into your minds to ponder about.

Aaaargh whhyyy!!!! You bumped a useless thread AND brought up a ridiculous age old theory!

[Lord Raizen]

If the databook says it then its true, and besides it would be amaturistic for kubo to have knepachi state that his sword is released if it wasnt true. I mena characters have thier opinions but this isnt that kind of situation. We know ichigo sword was forced into constant release not just becasue its powerful but because he couldnt CONTROL it. There are characters stronger than Kenpachi as stated earlier but the difference is they have advanced themselved enough to control it. You cant compare Kenpachi's level of mastery to Yamamoto thats just not right. Thats the whole reason Kenpachi needed the eyepatch. His sword IS consantly released. Hence the fact that every other sealed sword is in the form of an ordinary katana, while his sword has an abnormal guard, and the blade is long enough to be a nodaichi not a katana. These arent the traits of a sealed zanpakuto. Also, in his fight with Noitra, Kenpachi referred to his zanpakuto as HIM in big bold letters, implying that the writer wants it to be noticed and emphized. Kenpachi knows his sword know, and he has always been in release state, no more discussion all we can do is pray Kenpachi doesnt take it any further

[bowenmin]

I pretty sure its sealed because I dont remember him ever saying he knew the name. Actually Im almost sure that he said he didnt know the name. And his various statements saying relying on your zan(sword) is for the weak. If he did know his shiki at that time he was being damn hypocritical.

Well first post so yeah!!! hope to make more some day guys

WOOT! first post!
by the way, a dialogue btwn him and ichigo reveals this:
Ichigo: "show me the true form of your Zampakuto. you have been mocking me all throughout this fight without your shikai. "
Ken:"I don't recall mocking you. THIS IS THE TRUE FORM OF MY ZANPAKUTO.'
Ichigo :" Does that mean that It wouldn't get any stronger?"

Kenpachi:" so you can think that you can win, eh? just because this is the true form of my zampakuto, so you think I would Lose out to you?!"

Then he proceeds to stab his sword thru Ichigo's

BTW, I am a kenpachi fanboy as well, doesn't mean that I must believe that he is all powerful. The misconception that Kenpachi does not have shikai is a common one.

Another misconception is that he could beat tousen by taking off his eyepatch in his bankai. Since Tousen's bankai seals off all reitsu, taking off his eyepatch is not gonna do JACKSHEIT.

Then some people argue that Ken doesn't know what he is talking about.
Ken was taught by Yama jii before, and Yama is confirmed to be the most experienced shinigami and the first. Therefore, he would have told Kenpachi the reasons for his Zampakuto's state.
As you become more powerful, your spirit force fuses with your Zampakuto and you achieve releases by knowing thier names, however, as Ken is a special case, he coulda known the release, with just pure spirit force merging with the Zampakuto and then achieving the release. due to his personality, he never tried to understand his Zanpakuto.

anyway, KENPACHI FTW!

[bowenmin]

could you tell me how to add these pictures and decogrations, pretty please?
Me iz also big Kenpachi and Yamamoto Fanbouy!

[bowenmin]

It is already indicated by Kenpachi that it is in Shikai mode.
refer to the fight with ichigo, and the dialogue just before ichogo's sword is stabbed thru by Kenpachi's
Kenpachi obviously thinks his sword is in shikai mode.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAND Yamamoto also taught Kenpachi before. Ken probably got his understanding of Zampakutos and his own blade through Yamamoto.
Yamamto got the first Zampakuto, and Tite Kubo states in his SOULS guidebook that he is stronger than even Aizen.

Therefore, Yamamoto's opinion on Kenpachi's sword may be the most accurate that we could ever get outta anyone in the Bleachverse:)

[bowenmin]

ok... well if you want it straight from the mouth of Kenpachi, here you go
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/16.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/17.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000109/18.jpg


although the argument is clearly won in this forum, the stats show other wise.
Kenpachi DOES have shikai.
Fanboy: wh@@@@@@@@@@@@@@?!1 No can be! tis impossible! Kenpachi whoulda owned!
:mad there is no convincing some people in life.

:)How the hell can ANYONE argue thats his Shikai?
There's absolutely no bases for it :notrust


If I tell you that Tite Kubo's SOUL guidebook says so, would you believe Tite Kubo?
lololololol
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Tite Kubo could be said to be the god of the Bleach universe, and not Kenpachi.

It is a full time released sword, as stated by Zaraki & confirmed by Ichigo. If it was sealed, it couldn't have measured up to the power of Ichigo's full time released zanpakutou.

confirmed by the characters
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Tite Kubo

[thebigfanofnaruto]

I never knew he had a name for his Zanpaktou.He even told Ichigo that he never had one usually.He won against Kenpachi because he fought alongside Zangetsu. I,m done,gotta get to my FC.

[junsama]

Based on this as reference, and the way it's said in the anime.
It pretty much establishes that Kenpachi's sword IS a constant release zanpaktou. He just doesn't know the name, but it's the same as Ichigo's. No one can argue against this, cause that's just arguing against the reality of the story. >.>

This also confirms that not all Swords have sealed forms. They all DO have names though. (Kenpachi just forget his, therefore it has no name, cause there's no way anyone will ever figure it out.)

All who think you can't release a zanpaktou without a name.
What about Ichigo's sword?! All sealed swords look like a simple samuari sword. Kenpachi's has that near-diamond shaped hilt.
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106862/07.jpg

My one two-bits: To anyone who wants to argue over whose strongest between the two. Kenpachi could have easily capped Ichigo if he ever really wanted to. Bankai or no bankai.
Kendo anyone? Chapters 311-312

[PDQ]

It pretty much establishes that Kenpachi's sword IS a constant release zanpaktou. He just doesn't know the name, but it's the same as Ichigo's. No one can argue against this, cause that's just arguing against the reality of the story. >.>

The problem is that the reality of the story is that every shinigami who's ever used shikai has had to know the name to do it.

This also confirms that not all Swords have sealed forms. They all DO have names though. (Kenpachi just forget his, therefore it has no name, cause there's no way anyone will ever figure it out.)
The problem comes from the fact that even Ichigo, who has a permanent shikai, had a sealed form at one point(at the beginning of the story up until he learned the name.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/109/17/
Yamamoto and Aizen, who have greater reiatsu than him, can seal their swords, so his argument that his reiatsu is so strong that no seal can work on it, is also wrong.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/109/16/
He speaks as if he had to put a seal on his sword, when the reality of the story is that Ichigo never had to "put a seal on" Zangetsu, it was like that when he got that. In fact, all shinigami are given nameless zanpaktou to start with:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/110/14/

Kenpachi didn't forget the name, he never knew it in the first place.

All who think you can't release a zanpaktou without a name.
What about Ichigo's sword?!

"Zangetsu"...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/66/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/67/04/ (Yes that's an obsolete translation but that's the scene)

All sealed swords look like a simple samuari sword. Kenpachi's has that near-diamond shaped hilt.
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106862/07.jpg

Er, Mayuri's handle has spikes coming out of it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/303/13/
Hitsugaya's has a star shape hilt.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/131/14/

It's not a question of whether it's sealed or unsealed at this point, rather whether Kenpachi had any credibility when he told us so. The actual truth of the matter is irrelevant. If I told you that the millionth digit of pi is 8, it doesn't matter whether it is or not, I have no credibility to tell you so because I've never taken the time to look it up. Even if I'm right, you should've had no reason to believe me regardless. Especially if I'm wrong about the hundredth, thousandth, and tenthousandth digits of pi. That's the point. Kenpachi was wrong on so many counts, his reasoning was completely off even if his conclusion was right.

[Solar Bankai]

PDQ, thats an assumption that Aizen and Yamamoto have more reiatsu than Kenpachi. There isn't actually any evidence that they do have more, only that they have better control over it than Kenpachi - in the instances Yamamoto and Aizen have paralyzed people, they have focused their reiatsu upon the individuals in question...Kenpachi doesn't do that, making the reiatsu's impossible to compare in that manner.

If you look at physical feats that can only be accomplished, Kenpachi wins - he is the only character displayed to cut through buildings without even touching them and can create explosions simply by swinging his Zanpakuto with two hands. Then there is his damage soak, which has not been matched by anyone so far in Bleach. Take the statement he made about his Zanpakuto into account, note that the databook says that he sword is in constant release, and the logical conclusion is that he has more reiatsu.

[Rainl]

We don't know if Zaraki has reiatsu comparable to either of them or is it significantly greater than the other captains for that matter. Zaraki's reiatsu appears monstrous do to the fact that he's merely a novice at keeping it under control. He lets it roam freely where as the majority of others have their reiatsu capped.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/10/

Granted by Ganju's statement, it could most certainly be possible. You don't have to be a genius to be able to tell if the weight of an object is different. Which can be used as a reference when discussing the effects of reiatsu. Even with Kenpachi, while letting his reiatsu roam at full force, hasn't demonstrating enough power to actually "drop" someone. So the power between him with Yamamoto and Aizen are basically un-comparable.

Considering Yamamoto was able to nearly kill a VC with a gaze while simply remaining in his "base" form. Aizen also being able to put down the 6th espada to his knees. It isn't necessarily an assumption. It's basically what's been shown.

[KawpyNinja]

He deff dont kno the name...but im pretty sure one issue he'll come in a save-the-day scene finally figuring out his zanpakutou's namae....he'd be unstoppable

[Mr00]

I think his zanpaktou is in a permanent shikai state(like ichigos). His zanpaktou doesnt look like its in a sealed form.

[Silvermateus]

i do think its his shikai, notice how he says his sword is sharpened by strong reiatsu, and it doesnt look like a normal sealed sword, its all jagged, plus, its obvious his sword is far too strong to be concealed.

[Chaos Theory]

I say it's the Shikai, Kenpachi told Ichigo that no mater the seal he could try to put on it his massive Spiritual Power wouldn't allow it to seal

[MakeEmum]

Kenpachi's sword is probably in constant Shikai, if he learn it's name then he's probably gain access to it's ability so if kenpachi gets another power up in the series it will probably be that instead of straight up Bankai

[Oujisama]

Somebody please trash this thread. I can't believe its still active.

[ichiban gami]

Once and for all, really! Check the out the Ichigo vs. Kenpachi fight. They're said to be similar beings in their reiastsu capabilities, right!? Ichigos' reiatsu pours out with little control over it; Kenpachi same, Ichigo can't seal sword because of reiatsu; Kenpachi same (reiatsu control = seal on sword). A sealed sword is said to look like any other 'basic' sword according to Byakuya when commenting on Ichigos' ban kai zanpaktuo form. The swords of both Ichigo and Kenpachi don't even resemble basic looking ones their everyday use. Ichigo didn't yet have ban kai; Ken chan same. Kenpachi says that Ichigo is just slightly higher than him before they go final throw down. Ichigo obtained his Zanpaktuo to become a shimigami in it's huge Shinkai form without hearing Zangetsus name; Ken same. Unsealable, Shinkai. Watch the episodes, take notes if you need to, and drop the thread.

[BAD BD]

It is shikai, but it is much weaker than it should be because he forced it open.

[PDQ]

They're said to be similar beings in their reiastsu capabilities, right!? Ichigos' reiatsu pours out with little control over it; Kenpachi same, Ichigo can't seal sword because of reiatsu; Kenpachi same (reiatsu control = seal on sword).


Ichigo obtained his Zanpaktuo to become a shimigami in it's huge Shinkai form without hearing Zangetsus name; Ken same. Unsealable, Shinkai. Watch the episodes, take notes if you need to, and drop the thread.
Er, Ichigo's zanpaktou WAS sealed, not shikai when he got it to become a shinigami. It was sealed to start with. It didn't become shikai until AFTER hearing Zangetsu's name after training with Urahara.

Seems you need to rewatch the episodes yourself.

[rambler01]

It's pretty much clear the current state of Kenpachi's zanpakutou IS NOT in shikai. Each and every shinigami who has ever shikai'ed their zanpakutou knew the name of it, and to my knowledge verbally activates the zanpakutou into shikai every single time......(anyone feel free to correct me if I'm stating incorrect information). I'd imagine Captain-Commander Yamamoto is the strongest shinigami in the entire realm of Bleach; even he verbally activated Ryuujin Jakka with his shikai phrase as he prepared to fight Captain Ukitake and Captain Kyōraku in episode 56.

Anyone who has watched the anime or read the manga knows that Kenpachi never learned the name of his zanpakutou and therefore it COULD NOT POSSIBLY be in shikai form right now. Ichigo's zanpakutou however IS CURRENTLY in shikai form because he learned the name Zangetsu and screamed it out while under Urahara's training in episode 19 or 20 I believe.

[BAD BD]

"This is my shikai"

-zaraki kenpachi

[piirii]

not that it matters but i have a hypothsis on his Zanpaktou.

Its explained in the first episodes that a Zanpakto that hasnt been release will be cut like butter by a Zanpaktou that has been released. This happened with Ichigo's but not with Kenpachi's. So his Zanpaktou has to be in its shikai state to live through all the wear and tear. Maybe its sealed in its Shikai form. Thats my hypothsis. So im guessing the white tape on the handle of his Zanpaktou is seals keeping it indefinatly in its shikai state. Like he could have just forgot the name of it right?

[Akatora]

I've made a post about this recently, can't remember all i wrote in it but here's how i assume it is:

Zaraki's zanpakuto is like Ichigo's a always in shikai form, but Zaraki don't know the name of his Zanpakuto so how is that possible you may ask.
Simple answer really, he has forgotten it, he seem to have had a near complete memory erase, a sword always in shikai wouldn't return to normal as seen with Ichigo.

So he got the power buff from it, but he is unable to use any ability it would have.

[rambler01]

not that it matters but i have a hypothsis on his Zanpaktou.

Its explained in the first episodes that a Zanpakto that hasnt been release will be cut like butter by a Zanpaktou that has been released. This happened with Ichigo's but not with Kenpachi's. So his Zanpaktou has to be in its shikai state to live through all the wear and tear. Maybe its sealed in its Shikai form. Thats my hypothsis. So im guessing the white tape on the handle of his Zanpaktou is seals keeping it indefinatly in its shikai state. Like he could have just forgot the name of it right?


My girlfriend argues the exact opposite to your hypothesis. Think about it, early on in Bleach, Urahara stated to Ichigo while training him that a zanpakutou with no spiritual energy flowing through it could be cut into like a hot knife through butter (which explains how Urahara easily destroyed Ichigo's first zanpakutou prompting the emergence of Zangetsu). In Kenpachi's case, his current zanpakutou physically looks beat up; a zanpakutou with spiritual energy flowing through it could with stand the attacks of other zanpakutou and not become damaged. Kenpachi's zanpakutou may not be broken, but clearly it has taken considerable damage from other zanpakutou that had spiritual energy flowing through it. A zanpakutou with energy inside of it results from a user knowing the zanpakutou name, therefore making a strong arguement that Kenpachi's zanpakutou IS NOT in shikai form at the present time.

[Solar Bankai]

My girlfriend argues the exact opposite to your hypothesis. Think about it, early on in Bleach, Urahara stated to Ichigo while training him that a zanpakutou with no spiritual energy flowing through it could be cut into like a hot knife through butter (which explains how Urahara easily destroyed Ichigo's first zanpakutou prompting the emergence of Zangetsu). In Kenpachi's case, his current zanpakutou physically looks beat up; a zanpakutou with spiritual energy flowing through it could with stand the attacks of other zanpakutou. Kenpachi's zanpakutou may not be broken, but clearly it has taken considerable damage from other zanpakutou that had spiritual energy flowing through it. A zanpakutou with energy inside of it is the result of the user knowing name of the weapon, therefor making a strong arguement that Kenpachi's zanpakutou IS NOT in shikai form at the present time.

Your argument is defeated by three key points, and said points are the reason that this thread should be closed.

1. Kenpachi stated that his sword was in shikai.
2. Ichigo also commented on the shikai nature to Yoruichi, who did not correct him.
3. The databook says it is in permanent shikai mode. And that, combined with other information, is pretty hard to argue against.

The only piece of evidence against it not being shikai is that Kenpachi does not know the name; despite other shinigami knowing the name upon obtaining shikai, it had never been stated as required.

[rambler01]

Your argument is defeated by three key points, and said points are the reason that this thread should be closed.

1. Kenpachi stated that his sword was in shikai.
2. Ichigo also commented on the shikai nature to Yoruichi, who did not correct him.
3. The databook says it is in permanent shikai mode. And that, combined with other information, is pretty hard to argue against.

The only piece of evidence against it not being shikai is that Kenpachi does not know the name; despite other shinigami knowing the name upon obtaining shikai, it had never been stated as required.


I don't remember Kenpachi ever saying that his zanpakutou was in "shikai" form. And just to make sure, I went back to his fight with Ichigo in ep. 38 and he clearly said that his zanpakutou was already in its true form.......meaning what you see is what you get.

In eps. 39 going into 40, Kenpachi with his eye patch removed and full of pure reiatsu was still defeated by Ichigo while his nameless zanpakutou was broken in half by a fully charged Zangetsu. A zanpakutou will break under the force of another if the spirit energy inside of it is weak or not present at all. A zanpakutou thats "said" to be in shikai form wouldn't possibly break so easily, even with a fully charged Zangestu. This fact alone defeats your 3 talking points.

Toward the beginning of ep. 40, a bloody Kenpachi lays on the ground with Yachiru beside him and holds his broken zanpakutou in the air asking it to bear it's name in hopes of becoming "stronger". There's no other way around it, a released zanpakutou is the product of the user knowing it's name......Kenpachi's zanpakutou IS NOT in shikai.

[Solar Bankai]

I don't remember Kenpachi ever saying that his zanpakutou was in "shikai" form. And just to make sure, I went back to his fight with Ichigo in ep. 38 and he clearly said that his zanpakutou was already in its true form.......meaning what you see is what you get.

In eps. 39 going into 40, Kenpachi with his eye patch removed and full of pure reiatsu was still defeated by Ichigo while his nameless zanpakutou was broken in half by a fully charged Zangetsu. A zanpakutou will break under the force of another if the spirit energy inside of it is weak or not present at all. A zanpakutou thats "said" to be in shikai form wouldn't possibly break so easily, even with a fully charged Zangestu. This fact alone defeats your 3 talking points.

Toward the beginning of ep. 40, a bloody Kenpachi lays on the ground with Yachiru beside him and holds his broken zanpakutou in the air asking it to bear it's name in hopes of becoming "stronger". There's no other way around it, a released zanpakutou is the product of the user knowing it's name......Kenpachi's zanpakutou IS NOT in shikai.

Shikai has often been said to be the true form of a Zanpakuto; and like I said, Ichigo pointed out that Kenpachi's sword was the same as his later, which Yoruichi did not refute. Constant release type. The manga is the canon, rather than the anime - and in the manga, Kenpachi explicitly stated that there was no seal on his Zanpakuto - thus, it cannot be a sealed sword.

Secondly...we have seen Zanpakuto's break, even in shikai form (and indeed, even in Bankai form). What you have to remember is that Kenpachi's sword was stated to be clashing with his own reiatsu, which not only reduced the power of his sword but also that of himself. Ichigo, in comparison, used all the power of Zangetsu (which, by definition, includes that of the inner hollow) in a single strike...most Zanpakuto would have broken, and one actually weakened is not going to hold up against that.

Your argument would suggest that the final form of Byakuya's Bankai is also a sealed Zanpakuto :zaru

Ichigo put MORE reiatsu into his final blow with Kenpachi than he did vs Byakuya. So yeah. Arguing about the durability is pretty pointless.

Anyway, you cannot refute the databook, which states that it is in shikai. All evidence points towards shikai form.

[rambler01]

Shikai has often been said to be the true form of a Zanpakuto; and like I said, Ichigo pointed out that Kenpachi's sword was the same as his later, which Yoruichi did not refute. Constant release type. The manga is the canon, rather than the anime - and in the manga, Kenpachi explicitly stated that there was no seal on his Zanpakuto - thus, it cannot be a sealed sword.

Secondly...we have seen Zanpakuto's break, even in shikai form (and indeed, even in Bankai form). What you have to remember is that Kenpachi's sword was stated to be clashing with his own reiatsu, which not only reduced the power of his sword but also that of himself. Ichigo, in comparison, used all the power of Zangetsu (which, by definition, includes that of the inner hollow) in a single strike...most Zanpakuto would have broken, and one actually weakened is not going to hold up against that.

Your argument would suggest that the final form of Byakuya's Bankai is also a sealed Zanpakuto :zaru

Ichigo put MORE reiatsu into his final blow with Kenpachi than he did vs Byakuya. So yeah. Arguing about the durability is pretty pointless.

Anyway, you cannot refute the databook, which states that it is in shikai. All evidence points towards shikai form.



I have not seen the databook nor do I read the manga because I prefer to watch the subtitled episodes. I any event, I refute the claim of Kenpachi's zanpakutou being in Shikai because every other shinigami who has ever released their zanpakutou knew it's name and verbally activated it to that form. Even though Ichigo's zanpakutou is a permanent shikai, he still had to call Zangetsu's name that one time to activate it way back in ep. 20.

During Kenpachi's backstory there was no mention of him ever verbally activating his zanpakutou to its current beat up state. I rewatched ep. 38 of Kenpachi Vs Ichigo and did notice Kenpachi indicating his zanpakutou was not sealed. Even still, I will not believe it's in shikai until he verbally activates it. By all accounts, Captain Commander Yamaoto is the oldest, most skilled, and probably the strongest shinigami in all of Bleach.......however, even he at one point verbally activated Ryuujin Jakka. What would make Kenpachi so different when we've seen everyone else do it, even Ichigo who technically is not a "real" shinigami? Despite what the databook might say, I'm going off the notion that to release a zanpakutou it must be verbally done and I've yet to see Kenpachi do so.

As far as zanpakutou breaking in battle, ur right about that. Kenpachi did indeed break Ichigo's zanpakutou during their fight (however, that was due to Ichigo being over confident and lowering his spirit levels AFTER learning Kenpachi lacked a zanpakutou release....which kinda makes the arguement of low spirit levels weakening a zanpakutou)

As with Byakuya's final bankai form, of course the zanpakutou would be unsealed......After all, he followed protocol and verbally released Senbonzakura to that beautiful display of pink circling zanpakutou :amuse

[Solar Bankai]

That relies on the assumption that the name must be known for shikai to be obtained. That has never been stated anywhere in the manga. And that means that there isn't really any reason to believe that Kenpachi's Zanpakuto is in its sealed form.

That said, although it has the shikai form, it seems to lack abilities until the name of the sword is discovered.

[Morati]

Reading through the Kenpachi-Ichigo fight and Bankai training sessions again I'd say Shikai. He says his sword can't be sealed due to his reiatsu...which means it's permanently unsealed...and Shikai is an unsealed Zanpaktou. Do the math :zaru

[jonat3]

I have not seen the databook nor do I read the manga because I prefer to watch the subtitled episodes. I any event, I refute the claim of Kenpachi's zanpakutou being in Shikai because every other shinigami who has ever released their zanpakutou knew it's name and verbally activated it to that form. Even though Ichigo's zanpakutou is a permanent shikai, he still had to call Zangetsu's name that one time to activate it way back in ep. 20.

You refute the databook? That's the same as refuting Kubo himself. You do realize that the databook was written by Kubo himself? It's absolutely useless to argue against the databook. That's the same as banging your head against a concrete wall in hopes your attempt will break it. A futile effort.

Anyways, solar bankai is minimizing his points to the absolute necesary, that's because every point possible has been given in thit thread. I suggest you reread a few pages back to see the overwhelming evidence to the state of Zaraki's shikai. In fact, this thread should have been closed long ago, since the thread title has already been answered with HARD EVIDENCE.

[PDQ]

Your argument is defeated by three key points, and said points are the reason that this thread should be closed.

1. Kenpachi stated that his sword was in shikai.
2. Ichigo also commented on the shikai nature to Yoruichi, who did not correct him.
3. The databook says it is in permanent shikai mode. And that, combined with other information, is pretty hard to argue against.

The only piece of evidence against it not being shikai is that Kenpachi does not know the name; despite other shinigami knowing the name upon obtaining shikai, it had never been stated as required.
And your first two "key points" are easily refuted.
1. Kenpachi has shown practically zero credibility in anything related to Zanpaktou. Kenpachi's entire understanding of zanpaktou is easily shown to be flawed.
2. It was still Ichigo's comment, not Yoruichi. Random comments by an ignorant main character that aren't corrected don't make the comment correct. It's the same deal as with Naruto's comment about Sasuke having 2 affinities that wasn't corrected by Kakashi. Despite the fact that Naruto only thought that because he saw him use two elements, even though we know that even Kakashi can use 3 elements and still has one affinity(Lightning) as shown by him doing the paper test(and it wrinkling as expected for raiton affinities)
The third point is the closest thing to any reliable evidence.
You refute the databook? That's the same as refuting Kubo himself. You do realize that the databook was written by Kubo himself? It's absolutely useless to argue against the databook. That's the same as banging your head against a concrete wall in hopes your attempt will break it. A futile effort.

However, disagreeing with Kubo is distinct from disagreeing with the manga. Whatever is in the manga is what is in the manga, regardless of who writes it. Just like if Leonardo Da Vinci said there were a dozen people painted in his Mona Lisa, doesn't make that true. A piece of art is separate from the artist.
Secondly, even the manga refutes itself. Kubo has Hitsugaya and Aizen each independently say Grimmjow's fraccion were "just Gillian". Then later we see from flashbacks and from Urahara that they a mix of mostly Adjuchas and one gillian, Nakim)

Anyways, solar bankai is minimizing his points to the absolute necesary, that's because every point possible has been given in thit thread. I suggest you reread a few pages back to see the overwhelming evidence to the state of Zaraki's shikai. In fact, this thread should have been closed long ago, since the thread title has already been answered with HARD EVIDENCE.
The closest thing to "hard evidence" is the databook, every other point has been refuted. Almost every point relies on Kenpachi being knowledgeable about how Zanpaktou sealing works and he's already made at least one demostrable flaw in his understanding of that. It'd be no better evidence of anything than a lecture on the mechanics of Kidou by Kenpachi. This is the guy who had to be taught that using two hands with your sword is more powerful than one...

[Solar Bankai]

And your first two "key points" are easily refuted.
1. Kenpachi has shown practically zero credibility in anything related to Zanpaktou. Kenpachi's entire understanding of zanpaktou is easily shown to be flawed.
2. It was still Ichigo's comment, not Yoruichi. Random comments by an ignorant main character that aren't corrected don't make the comment correct. It's the same deal as with Naruto's comment about Sasuke having 2 affinities that wasn't corrected by Kakashi. Despite the fact that Naruto only thought that because he saw him use two elements, even though we know that even Kakashi can use 3 elements and still has one affinity(Lightning) as shown by him doing the paper test(and it wrinkling as expected for raiton affinities)
The third point is the closest thing to any reliable evidence.

First two points are, however, quite useful since we have the 3rd. They give evidence in the manga to support the 3rd point - that Kenpachi's sword is in shikai. Further, I'm pretty sure Kenpachi has not shown any flawed beliefs about Zanpakuto's - not caring about the name is hardly a flawed belief.

However, disagreeing with Kubo is distinct from disagreeing with the manga. Whatever is in the manga is what is in the manga, regardless of who writes it. Just like if Leonardo Da Vinci said there were a dozen people painted in his Mona Lisa, doesn't make that true. A piece of art is separate from the artist.
Secondly, even the manga refutes itself. Kubo has Hitsugaya and Aizen each independently say Grimmjow's fraccion were "just Gillian". Then later we see from flashbacks and from Urahara that they a mix of mostly Adjuchas and one gillian, Nakim)

See above.

The closest thing to "hard evidence" is the databook, every other point has been refuted. Almost every point relies on Kenpachi being knowledgeable about how Zanpaktou sealing works and he's already made at least one demostrable flaw in his understanding of that. It'd be no better evidence of anything than a lecture on the mechanics of Kidou by Kenpachi. This is the guy who had to be taught that using two hands with your sword is more powerful than one...

I'm yet to see this flaw in understanding. The only thing you could comment on would be Kenpachi's statement about his reiatsu being too high - but you cannot directly compare his reiatsu with that of the other high tiers, because they have COMPLETELY different feats of reiatsu (remember, crushing people with spiritual pressure is only one feat of reiatsu, and tends to require the intent of bringing them to their knees. Strength and durability are also directly affected by reiatsu. Whilst Aizen and Yamamoto have displayed good feats in the crushing effect, Kenpachi has displayed massive feats in durability and strength that outclass others that we have seen). In other words, saying that he does not have the highest reiatsu is only an assumption, as you have no definitive proof against it.

The databook says he has shikai. Kenpachi has also stated it was shikai, giving a reference to it in the manga. It doesn't even look like a standard sealed sword, although that is less important than the other points.

[rambler01]

You refute the databook? That's the same as refuting Kubo himself. You do realize that the databook was written by Kubo himself? It's absolutely useless to argue against the databook. That's the same as banging your head against a concrete wall in hopes your attempt will break it. A futile effort.

Anyways, solar bankai is minimizing his points to the absolute necesary, that's because every point possible has been given in thit thread. I suggest you reread a few pages back to see the overwhelming evidence to the state of Zaraki's shikai. In fact, this thread should have been closed long ago, since the thread title has already been answered with HARD EVIDENCE.


So the main arguements are "The Databook (Shikai) -VS- "What's actually been seen" (No-Shikai). Again, I have not seen this databook; but from watching the subtitled anime, shinigami that have released their zanpakutou into a shikai or bankai state knew its name, and verbally activated it.....facts are facts and I will stand by this fact until the thread closes (and yes, I'm refuting the databook). The anime has reached 200+ episodes and by now every captain (including Tousen, Gin, Aizen and EVEN substitute Ichigo) HAS BEEN SEEN verbally activating their zanpakutou to a released state (except for one eye-patch wearing brute).

Why would Kubo "suggest" in a databook that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is released and not visually show the world how it got to that state via manga or anime? (Kenpachi is so called to have a permanent shikai like Ichigo.......even still, Ichigo had to call the name Zangetsu AT LEAST one time for it to take that form in the first place) This debate could be ended by Kubo showing us Kenpachi knowing the name of his zanpakutou and calling its name to shikai or bankai...........the same way he did WITH EVERY OTHER CAPTAIN !!!! That's the proof I need to see, until then I'm not interested in hearing or reading what's in the databook. If Captain Commander Yamamoto called upon Ryuujin Jakka to turn everything to ash, I expect Kenpachi to do the same.

Your so called HARD EVIDENCE I guess is the databook only (which by the way many people have not even seen). I guess Kubo expects everyone to have seen the truth that lies in the databook about Kenpachi's zanpakutou, LoL.

[PDQ]

That reminds me:

Byakuya implies that you can only release your sword without using it's name if you have acquired Bankai:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/20/


There's no evidence that any zanpaktou STARTS out in shikai form and is then sealed. The only new zanpaktou we've ever seen received was Ichigo's and it started out sealed, despite his overwhelming reiatsu.

[posternojutsu]

does it matter? even if his sword is "released" its also outright stated in the manga that he doesnt work with his sword..and that doing that weakens not just him but his sword as well...so even if his sword is a full time release sword that is currently in its "shikai" state he doesnt use any of its power...right now as far as we know it gives him no boost.

[jonat3]

And your first two "key points" are easily refuted.
1. Kenpachi has shown practically zero credibility in anything related to Zanpaktou. Kenpachi's entire understanding of zanpaktou is easily shown to be flawed.

Stating this argument, you basically admit that he did state his sword is in its released state. You are saying here (if i understood you correctly), that Kenpachi did state his sword was released, but that he didn't know what he was talking about.

Ok, that MAY have been a valid argument. But it's not. Not anymore. Not since the databook came out. All arguments regarding this matter were based on assumptions. And these arguments have been resolved with the release of the databook.

2. It was still Ichigo's comment, not Yoruichi. Random comments by an ignorant main character that aren't corrected don't make the comment correct. It's the same deal as with Naruto's comment about Sasuke having 2 affinities that wasn't corrected by Kakashi. D.....e affinity(Lightning) as shown by him doing the paper test(and it wrinkling as expected for raiton affinities)
The third point is the closest thing to any reliable evidence.

Again, this second point is the same case as above. What you are arguing here, is a POSSIBILITY. Something that is possible, but with no evidence backing it. A possibility that is now invalid.

As for your spoiler comment:

The paper test was showing the MAIN affinity of a person. Kakashi has 3 affinities, but lightning is his main affinity. Naruto was correct in stating that Sasuke had two affinities.




However, disagreeing with Kubo is distinct from disagreeing with the manga. Whatever is in the manga is what is in the manga, regardless of who writes it. Just like if Leonardo Da Vinci said there were a dozen people painted in his Mona Lisa, doesn't make that true. A piece of art is separate from the artist.

And the manga has Zaraki stating that his sword is in its released state. In fact, it is my opinion that if people even had the slightest bit of reading comprehension, the databooks shouldn't have even been necesary to prove this fact. The databook is just the final bit that confirms it all.

The manga states it and Kubo states it. There are only two possible ways that the manga disagrees with Kubo concerning this point:

1. Kenpachi did NOT state that his sword was released
2. The theory about the name being necesary is true

Regarding point 1, even to the most oblivious amongst us, after i showed them the combination of chapter 109 and 120, they were forced to admit that Kenpachi did indeed state that his sword was released. You implied that Ichigo stated kenpachi had a fulltime released sword because of ignorance. But that's having it backwards. It's because he's ignorant, that there's no possible way that he could have known that Kenpachi had a fulltime released sword. He didn't even know his own sword was in shikai. How could he have known regarding zaraki's sword then? It's because kenpachi told him so himself in chapter 109.

Regarding point 2, this theory was only ever a theory. A theory that got popular to the point that people even believed it was literally stated in the manga. But on the contrary, NOWHERE is this theory ever stated. Granted, there were some pointers that seemed to support this theory, but these pointers were open to interpretation and could not be used as hard evidence.

Secondly, even the manga refutes itself. Kubo has Hitsugaya and Aizen each independently say Grimmjow's fraccion were "just Gillian". Then later we see from flashbacks and from Urahara that they a mix of mostly Adjuchas and one gillian, Nakim)

This is one of the few cases where i believe that Kubo did indeed screw up. Nonetheless, this example can't be used here. That's because in this case, there were two sentences uttered that were clear contradictions to each other. But in the case regarding Zaraki's sword, there is no clear contradiction. There only exists a contradiction if you magically turn a supposed theory regarding the name into a fact.

The closest thing to "hard evidence" is the databook, every other point has been refuted.

It's funny how you say that every other point has been refuted. Yes, if we disregard the databook, then you have indeed refuted our points, just as we have refuted yours. But with the databook, only your points have been refuted. If you want to make your points stand, your best shot is to dicredit the databook. Which you have tried, but not very succesful i might add. Anyone that has read through this entire thread can see which way the wind is blowing.

Almost every point relies on Kenpachi being knowledgeable about how Zanpaktou sealing works and he's already made at least one demostrable flaw.....nds with your sword is more powerful than one...

Like solarbankai stated, i do not believe that Zaraki made an inaccurate statement. Regarding the sealing of swords, it is indeed an inaccurate statement, if you apply Zaraki's comment to the entire shinigami race. Afterall, Yamamoto is able to seal his sword, and he's much more powerful than Zaraki. But if his comment only applies to himself, it is not inaccurate at all. Zaraki has no talent with seals. It may be that no matter how hard he trains, he simply will never be able to learn enough control to do it.


So the main arguements are "The Databook (Shikai) -VS- "What's actually been seen" (No-Shikai). Again, I have not seen this databook; ......facts are facts and I will stand by this fact until the thread closes (and yes, I'm refuting the da..... HAS BEEN SEEN verbally activating their zanpakutou to a released state (except for one eye-patch wearing brute).

If you haven't even read the manga, you can't even properly debate most of the time. For starters, most of the anime series are based on the manga. And the anime corrupts the manga most of the time. For example, there are shinigami shown within the anime using shunpou, though they have never used it within the manga.

Most of the time, i don't even take anime watchers seriously in debates, but since the anime follows the manga almost perfectly regarding this matter, i'll adress your arguments.

First of all, it's not the databook(shikai) vs what has been seen(not shikai). It's FACT vs assumption. Even if you did see that every shinigami stated the name upon releasing, does seeing this make the name being necesary a fact? If i see that every female in my vicinity is blond, does this mean that EVERY female must be blond? Hell no.

And regarding seeing every shinigami utter the name upon releasing, you must have missed the part about Renji attacking Byakuya with his shikai WITHOUT uttering the name. In the manga, Ichigo has released his bankai without even uttering a word. Not sure if the anime version is the same though.

Why would Kubo "suggest" in a databook that Kenpachi's zanpakutou ....the proof I need to see, until then I'm not interested in hearing or reading what's in the databook. If Captain Commander Yamamoto called upon Ryuujin Jakka to turn everything to ash, I expect Kenpachi to do the same.

Ummm, one of the general complaints concerning bleach is that Kubo does no background work. Naruto has flashbacks concerning each character displaying their past, but with bleach, he presents the characters first and their background comes later. The reason we have not seen Zaraki releasing his sword, is because Kubo is saving that for a future chapter.

Regarding Yama, i already outlined a reason why he could seal his sword and Zaraki can't. You'll have to look through my posts in this thread.

And Kubo is not "suggesting" anything in the databook. It was a clear statement with no room for misinterpretation.

Your so called HARD EVIDENCE I guess is the databook only ..... e seen the truth that lies in the databook about Kenpachi's zanpakutou, LoL.

The databook is mostly for fans. The state of Zaraki's sword is too insignificant a matter to go too deeply into it in the anime/manga. But for people that want to know more, that is the reason for the existence of the databook.

Anyways, this is the first time you even heard of the databook and the first thing you do is trash it. That is pure ignorance. The existence of the databook is general knowledge on most boards i've visited. Do your own research concerning the databook. I'm not going to do it for you. THEN you can come back and argue with me again. Until then, debating with you is absolutely useless.

That reminds me:

Byakuya implies that you can only release your sword without using it's name if you have acquired Bankai:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/20/


This is a point i refuted LOOOOOONG ago. Even before the databooks came out. Heck, it might even be in this thread.

The same points keep getting repeated and repeated and in return refuted and refuted. But in the end, the databook has settled the matter. Like i stated, if you want a leg to stand on either discredit the databook or prove that Kubo screwed up in the manga concerning this matter. And i'm telling you, you can't prove either. You certainly brought convincing evidence that Kubo screwed up before. But regarding this case? Nope.

[PDQ]

Stating this argument, you basically admit that he did state his sword is in its released state. You are saying here (if i understood you correctly), that Kenpachi did state his sword was released, but that he didn't know what he was talking about.
I assume for the sake of argument that Kenpachi is saying that his sword is shikai, but frankly, he sounds more like he just doesn't recognize there being a true difference between shikai and non-shikai other than some sorta "seal" he keeps hearing people talk about and some name which he might not even know the significance of. That is to say, questioning whether Kenpachi is calling his sword a shikai or a sealed sword when he says it is its "true form" is as meaningless a question as asking whether a newborn baby calling his mother "mama" is referring to her by her blood relation or her legal status because neither really understands the difference beyond the vaguest of notions.

All arguments regarding this matter were based on assumptions. And these arguments have been resolved with the release of the databook.
...
A possibility that is now invalid.

Hence why I stated earlier in the thread that this thread was to be converted into a question not of whether or not it is Shikai or not, but whether or not Kenpachi had any credibility in stating it was. Which is my main point, he never did have any credibility. Being right doesn't make his reasoning right. If I flipped a coin and said it'd turn up heads and it does turn up heads, it doesn't mean I'm psychic, it means I lucked out. Kenpachi turned out to be right if you take the databook as fact.

The paper test was showing the MAIN affinity of a person. Kakashi has 3 affinities, but lightning is his main affinity. Naruto was correct in stating that Sasuke had two affinities.

No, it shows their affinity, that's it. They've never said for there to be a "main" affinity and other affinities. Your affinity is what you're naturally attuned to. Simply being capable of something doesn't mean you were naturally gifted at it. A person who's tall could be said to have an affinity for playing basketball, and while a person who's shorter may beat him, it may be due to rigorous training, not an affinity for the sport.

And the manga has Zaraki stating that his sword is in its released state.

And once again, it's having ZARAKI state this. The manga itself doesn't make this claim, it's having a character make a claim. It's called theory of mind. It's something storytellers are SUPPOSED TO DO. If you created a character who was obsessed with fighting and had no concern over his sword's ability or release, nor even the name, would you make him perfectly credible in talking about it? No, it wouldn't make sense. Anyone with a decent understanding of how stories work would understand this. It's not a third person omniscient narrative. If it were, this would be a completely different situation.
Regarding point 2, this theory was only ever a theory. A theory that got popular to the point that people even believed it was literally stated in the manga. But on the contrary, NOWHERE is this theory ever stated. Granted, there were some pointers that seemed to support this theory, but these pointers were open to interpretation and could not be used as hard evidence.



This is one of the few cases where i believe that Kubo did indeed screw up. Nonetheless, this example can't be used here. That's because in this case, there were two sentences uttered that were clear contradictions to each other. But in the case regarding Zaraki's sword, there is no clear contradiction. There only exists a contradiction if you magically turn a supposed theory regarding the name into a fact.

The point is that the main crux of your argument is reliant on an assumption about Kenpachi's credibility and the databook. The first is shaky enough. The latter relies on a source that's secondary where even the primary source isn't perfectly consistent. While it may be strongly indicative of what may be revealed in the manga, it is not the manga and until it is in the manga, it isn't a manga fact.

Actually there is only a contradiction if you magically turn both repeated evidence of a likely fact and a claim and shaky reasoning by an uncredible character into facts. The reason we call shikai requiring a name a fact and not a "theory" is precisely stated in my signature quote. It is "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent". We do not consider gravity a fact because someone claims it exists based on some shaky logic, we consider it a fact because of constant repeated and consistent experiences. Similarly, we have constantly and consistently seen actual shikai releases occur solely in the presence of calling it's name. The sole exception of Renji in one instance is quite clearly demarcated by his recent attainment of Bankai and is noted by someone who himself had Bankai so he would know from experience.

It's funny how you say that every other point has been refuted. Yes, if we disregard the databook, then you have indeed refuted our points, just as we have refuted yours. But with the databook, only your points have been refuted.

Given I said every other point "other than the databook" has been refuted, then of course, you would disregard the databook when doing so... That's grammatically what that phrase means.

Once again, my points are still valid refutations of every claim. And once again, you seem to have a problem discerning the difference between the accuracy of an argument's conclusion and it's soundness. No argument beyond the databook has been sound in supporting your conclusion. Hence why every one of them has been refuted. There's no reasoning for concluding it is a shikai from just the manga any more solid than the reasoning that it is sealed.

Like solarbankai stated, i do not believe that Zaraki made an inaccurate statement. Regarding the sealing of swords, it is indeed an inaccurate statement, if you apply Zaraki's comment to the entire shinigami race. Afterall, Yamamoto is able to seal his sword, and he's much more powerful than Zaraki. But if his comment only applies to himself, it is not inaccurate at all. Zaraki has no talent with seals. It may be that no matter how hard he trains, he simply will never be able to learn enough control to do it.

It is not about "putting a seal" or having talent with seals. Ichigo had no knowledge let alone talent of putting seals on a zanpaktou yet his zanpaktou started out sealed when he got it. So it's not a matter of talent or control.

And the anime corrupts the manga most of the time.

An anime cannot corrupt a manga because an anime is not the manga...
At most, it can diverge from a manga, but strictly speaking, it represents a different continuity or "canon" altogether.

And regarding seeing every shinigami utter the name upon releasing, you must have missed the part about Renji attacking Byakuya with his shikai WITHOUT uttering the name.

And Byakuya quite clearly indicates that this is something impossible without acheiving Bankai.

I've search on your name for the key words "shikai renji name" throughout the Bleach section and your only rebuttal to this is that it's not explicitly said. Kinda like how Urahara never finished his sentence about what Sado's power was like:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/224/23/
He says it's not like a Shinigami or Quincy, it's almost as if... and then he proceeds to show a hollow mask. I wonder what it could be? Oh wait, he has Sado actually spell it out for those who didn't get it the first time:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/260/03/
Yes, it's a hollow, kinda like the mask. Kinda like how right after Byakuya says: "Did you...", it goes right to Renji using Bankai.
Or here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/08/
"The strength is almost at the level of..." Then Ichigo does Bankai. What could Byakuya possibly be trying to say? I know! "The strength is almost at the level of Bankai.
The reason is that it is by far the most logical way to complete the sentence.
"Did you..."what? "Did you attain Bankai?" would be how you complete the sentence because that's how Kubo does things. Because you're not supposed to be able to release your shikai without calling it's name unless you have bankai.

[rambler01]

First of all, it's not the databook(shikai) vs what has been seen(not shikai). It's FACT vs assumption. Even if you did see that every shinigami stated the name upon releasing, does seeing this make the name being necesary a fact? If i see that every female in my vicinity is blond, does this mean that EVERY female must be blond? Hell no.

And regarding seeing every shinigami utter the name upon releasing, you must have missed the part about Renji attacking Byakuya with his shikai WITHOUT uttering the name. In the manga, Ichigo has released his bankai without even uttering a word. Not sure if the anime version is the same though.


Anyways, this is the first time you even heard of the databook and the first thing you do is trash it. That is pure ignorance. The existence of the databook is general knowledge on most boards i've visited. Do your own research concerning the databook. I'm not going to do it for you. THEN you can come back and argue with me again. Until then, debating with you is absolutely useless.


Ok, I'll try to break down your talking points into segments. Your arguement of FACT vs assumption is absolutely correct......and the fact that I've been trying to make (along with PDQ) is that releasing a zanpakutou requires being aware of it's name; no exceptions. So wouldn't it be a MAJOR contradiction to the storyline if Kenpachi has a released zanpakutou and doesn't even know its name? According to what Kubo has put forth, this action is ABSOLUTELY impossible. From a very technicial standpoint, the databook that implies Kenpachi's zanpakutou is released goes against what is written for the story. How does a shinigami who doesn't know the name of their zanpakutou manage to release it/unseal it anyway? :notrust :huh

Secondly, when Renji attacked Byakuya with his shikai without calling Zambimaru, he was able to so because he had achieved bankai. In regard to Ichigo, he can release Zangetsu to a bankai without saying a word because he too has learned bankai making future silent activations possible (I presume you never knew this fact or just forgot.....I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say the latter because after all, Byakuya made reference to this while fighting Renji).

Thirdly, I never trashed the databook; I merely refuted the idea of Kenpachi's zanpakutou being released/unsealed when the storyline clearly indicates a user CANNOT release a zanpakutou to shikai or bankai without first knowing it's name (and Kenpachi seems to believe he carries a "Nameless Zanpakutou" as he puts it).

And another thing, just because Kenpachi said his zanpakutou was unsealed doesn't mean its in shikai. A "Nameless" zanpakutou CANNOT be released, how many times must someone say this?

Also, he made the ridiculous claim that his spiritual energy was so high that he couldn't seal his zanpakutou (but Captain Commander Yamamoto and Aizen can????) Someone who clearly has to know Bleach better than me try to explain that one?

[PDQ]

If i see that every female in my vicinity is blond, does this mean that EVERY female must be blond? Hell no.
Welcome to the world of inductive reasoning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
What scientists of the world rely on for determining what is "fact"

"must be"? No. More likely than any other alternative without more reliable information? Yes.

[jonat3]

I assume for the sake of argument that Kenpachi ..understands the difference beyond the vaguest of notions.

Assumption. One that has been proven wrong. Might have been relevant. Before the databooks.


Hence why I stated earlier in the thread that this thread was to be converted into a question not of whether or not it is Shikai or not, but whethe....right if you take the databook as fact.

No, it shows their affinity..rigorous training, not an affinity for the sport.

Look, to me, kenpachi did indeed luck out. His credibility isn't even an important issue to me anymore. But i understand your point somewhat. Without the databook, who in his right mind would believe anything Zaraki says? That's the point you are trying to make.

The reason i believed him, is because when characters go into explanation mode in a manga, they are mostly corrrect, until the author states otherwise.

They'v... mean that people have only one affinity.


And once again, it's having ZARAKI state this. The manga itself doesn't make this claim, it's having a character make a claim. It's called theory of min..iscient narrative. If it were, this would be a completely different situation.

Explanatory statements are usually correct, until the author states otherwise. A third person narrative would indeed be more convincing, but it would be funny to use such a method in the middle of Zaraki's fight. Having Zaraki say it himself is enough (for half of us atleast, if we consider the poll results).

The point is that the main crux of your argument is reliant on an assumption a... the manga, it is not the manga and until it is in the manga, it isn't a manga fact.

Dude, we both agree that kenpachi stated his sword was released. It's the BIGGER assumption to assume he doesn't know what he is talking about than to say he was right. Explanatory statements are usually correct, until the author states otherwise. This is standard fare in a manga. If you can point me an example where a character explains something and he was wrong WITHOUT the author correcting him in the manga/anime, you would be on much firmer ground (the naruto example doesn't count). But i can't seem to remember any such instance.

And regarding the databook, no human is perfect. Everybody can make mistakes. But tell me, does one mistake from Kubo invalidate the entire databook? It's ridiculous to state that you can't believe anything from the databook, just because mistakes are possible. Using that argument, it's useless to abide by the law, cause the lawbook may contain mistakes.

To invalidate the databook, you would first have to prove that the databook contains a mistake. And even if you did prove that, you would also have to prove that Kubo made a mistake specifically for THIS matter. And so far i see no mistakes. Instead of concentrating on Zaraki's credibiltiy, you should be concentrating on this issue. Zaraki's credibility has the databook as backup. Until you manage to (convincingly) invalidate the databook, you are pulling the shorter stick on this one.

Actually there is only a contradiction if you magically turn both repeated evidence of a likely fact and a claim and shaky reasonin.....now from experience.

The problem with your claim, is that your evidence is shaky. How many shinigami releasing their sword have we seen in fact? Not that many. And you call that a consistent experience? You would have to see the process a HUNDRED or even a THOUSAND times before you can make such a claim. To use so little evidence and turn it into a fact, you would be laughed out of the scientific world.


Given I said every other point..grammatically what that phrase means.

Yeah, but you seem to like disregarding the databook far too much. Very convenient. Instead of jumping around discussing frivolous stuff, you should be concentrating on this one.


Once again, my points are still valid refutations of every claim. And ...t is a shikai from just the manga any more solid than the reasoning that it is sealed.

If my arguments weren't sound, the databook wouldn't have proven them. YOUR arguments have been proven unsound. To disbelieve the databook, because humans can make mistakes, THAT is perverse.

It is not about "putting a seal" or having talent with seals. Ichigo had no knowledge let alone talent of putting seals on a zanpaktou yet his zanpaktou started out sealed when he got it. So it's not a matter of talent or control.

Read back on the chapter when Isshin nailed GrandFisher. Shinigami SUBCONSCIOUSLY control the size of their zanpakutou. Similarly, a zanpakutou is sealed SUBCONSCIOUSLY. In the case with Zaraki and Ichigo, that subconscious control is not enough. According to zaraki, he can't seal his sword, because of his massive reiatsu. But we both know that Yama probably has way more reiatsu than him and he can seal his sword. Obviously, the difference lies in the ability to control their zanpakutou.

An anime cannot corrupt a manga because an anime is not the manga...
At most, it can diverge from a manga, but strictly speaking, it represents a different continuity or "canon" altogether.

If we consider the author's original intent, it's a continuity or canon that's not relevant.

And Byakuya quite clearly indicates that this is something impossible without acheiving Bankai.

I've search on your name for the key words "shikai renji name" throughout the Bleach section and your only rebuttal to this is that it's not explicitly said.

Yes, you stated "quite clearly". While i agree, that he implied that achieving bankai allows one to release their zanpakutou without the name, i do not believe he stated it quite clearly. If it was a clear statement, he would LITERALLY spell out the entire sentence. Not leaving it vague, like ...."did you"...

In another interpretation he might have even meant it like this: "you released your zanpakutou without releaseing the name, did you." In manga, sometimes they replace the comma for several dots. Not that i believe that this is the case here, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Kinda like how Urahara never finished his sentence about what Sado's ..unless you have bankai.

I agree, all logical ways to end the sentences. But in no way can you say that they are clear complete sentences or that it proves anything. Because of the vagueness, debate around the meaning is (or was) possible.

Now that we have gotten that out of the way, i'll make it clear once more that i did indeed believe that Byakuya implied that learning bankai allows one to release shikai without the name. But we have also seen Zaraki having shikai without the name. Clearly, the name has some importance. You only place TOO much importance on it. It is standard fare in a manga, that exceptions to a rule exists. And we know that AT MINIMUM this is the case here. How? The databooks. In the end, it all comes down to this.

[jonat3]

Had to divide into two posts, because of the post limit.

Ok, I'll try to break down your talking
points .. zanpakutou manage to release it/unseal it anyway? :notrust :huh

I already said to PDQ, but i'll say it again. Exceptions to a rule is standard fare in a manga. Nothing is impossible in a manga. It's the author who decides the reality of the story. And the reality is that Zaraki has shikai without the name even if he has shown otherwise. Stated by Zaraki himself. Proven through the databook.

And according to zaraki, he has shikai, because of his massive reiatsu. Same for Ichigo.

Secondly, ..doubt and say the latter because after all, Byakuya made reference to this while fighting Renji).

No, i knew. But since you weren't clear on KNOWING the name to release or merely UTTERING it, i assumed you meant UTTERING it.

For the rest of your argument, see above.

Thirdly, I never trashed the databook; I merely refuted the idea of Kenpachi's zanpakutou being released/unsealed when the storyline clearly indicates a user CANNOT release a zanpakutou to shikai or bankai without first knowing it's name (and Kenpachi seems to believe he carries a "Nameless Zanpakutou" as he puts it).

The storyline has zaraki stating his sword is released. The author dictates the reality. Even if you disbelieve Zaraki, at the very least, our claim that his sword is released doesn't come out of nowhere.

And another thing, just because Kenpachi said his zanpakutou was unsealed doesn't mean its in shikai. A "Nameless" zanpakutou CANNOT be released, how many times must someone say this?

Dude, an unsealed sword IS shikai. A zanpakutou only has 3 states at most:

1. Sealed
2. Unsealed (shikai)
3. Fully released (bankai)

If you are saying that it's unsealed, but its NOT shikai, you are talking about a 4th state that has never been witnessed in the manga.

Anyways, regarding Zaraki's meaning concerning the state of his sword, there's no room for doubt if you also add in the scene where Yoruichi explains about Ichigo having a fulltime released sword (Ichigo replies that his sword is just like zaraki's).

Also, he made the ridiculous claim that his spiritual energy was so high that he couldn't seal his zanpakutou (but Captain Commander Yamamoto and Aizen can????) Someone who clearly has to know Bleach better than me try to explain that one?

Already explained this one before. The difference, is that Yama probably started out with less reiatsu when he first became a shinigami. Which is why it was easier for him to increase his control as his reiatsu increased through his lifetime.

In the case with Zaraki and Ichigo, they started out IMMEDIATELY with a shitload of reiatsu. Which is why they are having difficulty sealing their sword and learning control. The learning curve is much steeper in their case.

Welcome to the world of inductive reasoning!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
What scientists of the world rely on for determining what is "fact"

"must be"? No. More likely than any other alternative without more reliable information? Yes.

I was already aware of the term inductive reasoning.

As long as your inductive reasoning includes the info within the databook as well, i won't say anything. No logical person can dismiss the databook out of hand. Not without a VERY good reason. And so far you haven't given any.

[bsktbll28082]

i'd say 'sealed' because he doesnt even know it's name. at one point he tried to learn it, but it wouldnt talk.

he's still wicked strong though. imagine if he could take it all the way to bankai.

[rambler01]

I already said to PDQ, but i'll say it again. Exceptions to a rule is standard fare in a manga. Nothing is impossible in a manga. It's the author who decides the reality of the story. And the reality is that Zaraki has shikai without the name even if he has shown otherwise. Stated by Zaraki himself. Proven through the databook.

And according to zaraki, he has shikai, because of his massive reiatsu. Same for Ichigo.


The storyline has zaraki stating his sword is released. The author dictates the reality. Even if you disbelieve Zaraki, at the very least, our claim that his sword is released doesn't come out of nowhere.


Dude, an unsealed sword IS shikai. A zanpakutou only has 3 states at most:

1. Sealed
2. Unsealed (shikai)
3. Fully released (bankai)

If you are saying that it's unsealed, but its NOT shikai, you are talking about a 4th state that has never been witnessed in the manga.


LoL, I must say this thread is awefully entertaining to post to. Here's the thing though Jonat, if there is an "exception" to the rule regarding zanpakutou release without knowing its name, then Kubo has done a horrible job explaining why Kenpachi is indeed the rule breaker; and more importantly, what credentials does Kenpachi possess that make him "special" enough to be a rule breaker? After all, we're speaking of a captain who didn't care to learn his zanpakutou name until a substitute shinigami defeated him while shattering his "Nameless" sword.

Also, why would Kubo depict one truth in the manga/databook, but turn around and undermine that truth in the anime? Either you need to know the name of a zanpakutou for release...or you don't. Both cannot be true if the story is to retain a sense of consistency and even credibilty for the fans. Authors generally don't make a living out of confusing their fanbase.

While reading through your responses to PDQ, I came across comments about if the databook was indeed incorrect. I believe a minor error can be made by anyone; I also believe that one minor error doesn't flaw an entire piece of work. With that said, it is possible that the databook could be incorrect regarding Kenpachi. The basis for me saying this is solely based on the storyline (ONLY Kenpachi can release a zanpakutou and not know its name???....who died and made him The King of Exceptions???) More importantly, where was the backstory to bring some light to all of this???

As far as zanpakutou states, if there are people who believe Kenpachi is the only captain in the history of the Soul Society to release a "Nameless" zanpakutou, then I can believe whatever state it's currently in IS NOT a Shikai. Sure, myself and PDQ acknowledged that he said it was "unsealed", but as far as I'm concerned, what has been depicted in the story about zanpakutou makes his Shikai impossible (unless of course Kenpachi is indeed "The Rule Breaker" to all things consistent and true in Soul Society for 5,000+ years, LoLoL)

In the case of Storyline depiction of zanpakutou -VS- The Databook's portrayal of Kenpachi's sword......I gotta go with the storyline. Forgive me databook advocates as I must follow my voice of reason to the truth as it will ultimately set all of us free, LoLoL.

[jonat3]

LoL, I must say this thread is awefully entertaining to post to. Here's the thing though Jonat, if there is an "exception" to the rule regarding zanpakutou release without knowing its name, then Kubo has done a horrible job explaining why Kenpachi is indeed the rule breaker; and more importantly, what credentials does Kenpachi possess that make him "special" enough to be a rule breaker? After all, we're speaking of a captain who didn't care to learn his zanpakutou name until a substitute shinigami defeated him while shattering his "Nameless" sword.

According to Zaraki, his massive reiatsu allowed him to be the rule breaker. Apparently, if he is to be believed, Ichigo could have released without the name as well, since he also started out with massive reiatsu. But since he regained his shinigami powers, Zangetsu chose that time to reveal his name at the moment he got back his sword.

Also, why would Kubo depict one truth in the manga/databook, but turn around and undermine that truth in the anime? Either you need to know the name of a zanpakutou for release...or you don't. Both cannot be true if the story is to retain a sense of consistency and even credibilty for the fans. Authors generally don't make a living out of confusing their fanbase.

Actually, the anime is a near perfect copy of the manga where this issue is concerned. If you look closely enough in the anime, you can find the references as well, similar to the manga.

The theory about knowing the name was only ever a theory. It was never mentioned in the manga OR the anime. Peopple just made that assumption for themselves.

While reading through your responses to PDQ, I came across comments about if the databook was indeed incorrect. I believe a minor error can be made by anyone; I also believe that one minor error doesn't flaw an entire piece of work. With that said, it is possible that the databook could be incorrect regarding Kenpachi. The basis for me saying this is solely based on the storyline (ONLY Kenpachi can release a zanpakutou and not know its name???....who died and made him The King of Exceptions???) More importantly, where was the backstory to bring some light to all of this???

Well, that backstory is coming. In an interview with Kubo he stated he was planning one for Zaraki and Yachiru. Also for Isshin.

As for the databook being flawed in this instance, you are talking about a 0.01% chance here. You could talk about a high chance for a flaw if the databook was stating something completely different that was not present in the manga. But the manga itself has Zaraki stating his sword was released. The databook confirms this statement. So both the manga and the databook (including the anime) have this specific reference. Not to mention that the databook was extremely specific to state that Zaraki had a fulltime released SHIKAI sword similar to Ichigo. There was nothing vague about the statement that could be open to multiple interpretation. Very clearcut and straightforward with no room for mistakes.

As far as zanpakutou states, if there are people who believe Kenpachi is the only captain in the history of the Soul Society to release a "Nameless" zanpakutou, then I can believe whatever state it's currently in IS NOT a Shikai. Sure, myself and PDQ acknowledged that he said it was "unsealed", but as far as I'm concerned, what has been depicted in the story about zanpakutou makes his Shikai impossible (unless of course Kenpachi is indeed "The Rule Breaker" to all things consistent and true in Soul Society for 5,000+ years, LoLoL)

Yoruichi herself stated that he was the only shinigami in the entire history of SS to become a captain without knowing the name (and without bankai i believe). You could doubt Zaraki, but doubting Yoruichi? That's taking it too far.

And SS has existed for a VERY long time. I would say far more than 5000 years. and out of those 5000+ years. he's the only one to become a captain without the name (and i believe without bankai as well). Kenpachi is simply a walking exception to most rules.

In the case of Storyline depiction of zanpakutou -VS- The Databook's portrayal of Kenpachi's sword......I gotta go with the storyline. Forgive me databook advocates as I must follow my voice of reason to the truth as it will ultimately set all of us free, LoLoL.

My voice of reason tells me that exceptions to the rule are standard fare. It also tells me that explanatory statements are true, until stated otherwise. There are many a manga with many of these examples (666satan comes to mind). The databook is confirmation of these basic principles.

I think the problem here is that people are dissatisfied with Zaraki's (inadequate) explanation. If someone is to be blamed, blame Kubo for not being too charitable with explanations. He has a tendency to keep explanations short and simple. Probably to keep the manga fastpaced with action. It is already apparent to me what the truth is here. It seems Kubo has failed in conveying that truth properly.

Yes, what you said in your first paragraph applies here. Kubo has simply done a horrible job explaining (which is my honest opinion on this matter as well). Well, it's not the first time that Kubo has been critisized.

[PDQ]

Assumption. One that has been proven wrong. Might have been relevant. Before the databooks.

Once again, no, it has not been proven wrong whatsoever because you're still conflating accuracy with argumentation.

Assuming Kenpachi was right, that does not make him any more knowledgeable about his choice. No more than a child guessing the sun is a ball of hot gas prove him qualified to be an astronomer. Kenpachi still hasn't shown that he really understands the distinction in either the databook nor the manga.


Look, to me, kenpachi did indeed luck out. His credibility isn't even an important issue to me anymore. But i understand your point somewhat. Without the databook, who in his right mind would believe anything Zaraki says? That's the point you are trying to make.

The reason i believed him, is because when characters go into explanation mode in a manga, they are mostly corrrect, until the author states otherwise.

Characters who are mostly correct in explanation mode either are talking about something they should be well aware of or are in some position where they can be a teacher, such as Yoruichi, Urahara, Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc. The idiot characters of mangas are rarely ever correct unless they have an explicit reason to know about something(Naruto about becoming hokage because that's his dream or Lee about the Jyuuken because that's his rival's style). Kenpachi has shown nothing that would imply he has knowledge of it.


And regarding the databook, no human is perfect. Everybody can make mistakes. But tell me, does one mistake from Kubo invalidate the entire databook? It's ridiculous to state that you can't believe anything from the databook, just because mistakes are possible. Using that argument, it's useless to abide by the law, cause the lawbook may contain mistakes.

There's a difference between invalidating and disproving dogma. The sheer existence of errors in a databook means that it cannot be taken as absolute proof. You cannot say that "because it's in the databook, it MUST be true" anymore than you can say "because it's been true of everyone else in the manga, it MUST be true that you need to know the name of your zanpaktou to use shikai".

As for law, law is authoritative. Lawbooks can't contain mistakes because they are accurate by definition. They might not agree with the intentions of the lawmakers, but they are still authoritative in what they say. Lawbooks do not observe laws, they SET the laws. So bad example.

If you had someone trying to explain the law as they understand it rather than set the law, then if they are known to make mistakes, using them as proof is inherently flawed. It all depends on authority. If what the person says is defined as law, then they can't be wrong. If what's in a lawbook is defined as law, even if they're writing the lawbook, they can be wrong, but what's in the lawbook can't be. When it comes down to it, the only way to know for sure is from the authoritative source. The only authoritative source for the manga is the manga. Not even Kubo.

The problem with your claim, is that your evidence is shaky. How many shinigami releasing their sword have we seen in fact? Not that many. And you call that a consistent experience? You would have to see the process a HUNDRED or even a THOUSAND times before you can make such a claim. To use so little evidence and turn it into a fact, you would be laughed out of the scientific world.

The proportion of the sample to observable instance is 100%. You can't get anywhere near that high a proportion of the known instances in the real world. EVERY SINGLE person who's released their zanpaktou on screen has shown knowledge of it's name.
That's "consistent". That's the very definition of consistent(the definition of consistency being based on a lack of contradiction rather than any number of experiments).
In the case with Zaraki and Ichigo, that subconscious control is not enough. According to zaraki, he can't seal his sword, because of his massive reiatsu. But we both know that Yama probably has way more reiatsu than him and he can seal his sword. Obviously, the difference lies in the ability to control their zanpakutou.

Actually no. As seen with Ikkaku, your zanpaktou is sealed back when you pass out as well, and you can't do something subconsciously when you're unconscious.
So whether it's permanent shikai or resealed is not dependent on your control.
According to Zaraki, his massive reiatsu allowed him to be the rule breaker. Apparently, if he is to be believed, Ichigo could have released without the name as well, since he also started out with massive reiatsu. But since he regained his shinigami powers, Zangetsu chose that time to reveal his name at the moment he got back his sword.

There was also a VERY good time for Ichigo's zanpaktou to have released itself without the name if it were possible.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/50/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/50/10/

Rather than it unsealing, it starts warping to the point that it would explode, not unseal.

[jonat3]

Once again, no, it has not been proven wrong whatsoever because you're still conflating accuracy with argumentation.

Assuming Kenpachi was right, that does not make him any more knowledgeable about his choice. No more than a child guessing the sun is a ball of hot gas prove him qualified to be an astronomer. Kenpachi still hasn't shown that he really understands the distinction in either the databook nor the manga.

PDQ, if he didn't understand the distinction, he wouldn't have been adequately been able to describe the current state of his sword. Not enough for being able to make Ichigo understand as was apparent in chapter 120.

You are so hung up on your belief about Kenpachi being an incompetent concerning swords and the theory about the name, that you throw logic straight out of the window and can't recognize genuine evidence and genuine facts when you come across them.

The databooks are STRAIGHT from Kubo, with no evidence whatsoever that it contains any mistakes. What you are talking about is a hypotethical with a 0.01% chance of occurring. The evidence is so overwhelming it's perverse to believe otherwise (and i believe you told me something about perverse and facts as i recall). The databook contains FACTS, cause it originated from the author. According to you, only the manga is canon, but the databook is an infobook from the creator of said manga and thus must also be considered canon. And since the databook is far more explicit (it's a DATA book afterall), it must be believed above any ASSUMPTION based upon the manga.


Characters who are mostly correct in explanation mode either are talking about something they should be well aware of or are in some position where they can be a teacher, such as Yoruichi, Urahara, Kakashi, Jiraiya, etc. The idiot characters of mangas are rarely ever correct unless they have an explicit reason to know about something(Naruto about becoming hokage because that's his dream or Lee about the Jyuuken because that's his rival's style). Kenpachi has shown nothing that would imply he has knowledge of it.

A character's background information is rarely ever relevant when they go into explanation mode. Like i've stated, in all of the manga i've read (or any story for that matter), i've never seen ANY character that was wrong when in explanation mode (unless the author himself proved otherwise), no matter WHAT their background information was.

There's a difference between invalidating and disproving dogma. The sheer existence of errors in a databook means that it cannot be taken as absolute proof. You cannot say that "because it's in the databook, it MUST be true" anymore than you can say "because it's been true of everyone else in the manga, it MUST be true that you need to know the name of your zanpaktou to use shikai".

You say "the sheer existence of errors in a databook". You make it sound like there are really errors in the databook. But that's merely a hypotetical. And a VERY small one at that. If there truly was any error in the databook, your point would have more credence to it.

In regards, to the databook not being absolute proof, i must say that after reading your sig, i must agree to that point as well. BUT, while i may agree that the databook cannot be considered absolute proof, it must still be considered a FACT. In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that the databook COULD be possibly wrong, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.



As for law, law is authoritative. Lawbooks can't contain mistakes because they are accurate by definition. They might not agree with the intentions of the lawmakers, but they are still authoritative in what they say. Lawbooks do not observe laws, they SET the laws. So bad example.

True.

If you had someone trying to explain the law as they understand it rather than set the law, then if they are known to make mistakes, using them as proof is inherently flawed. It all depends on authority. If what the person says is defined as law, then they can't be wrong. If what's in a lawbook is defined as law, even if they're writing the lawbook, they can be wrong, but what's in the lawbook can't be. When it comes down to it, the only way to know for sure is from the authoritative source. The only authoritative source for the manga is the manga. Not even Kubo.

And the manga has kenpachi stating his sword was released. It does not contradict the databook (or Kubo). In fact, one can even say the databook could be seen as an addition to the manga or part of the manga.

The proportion of the sample to observable instance is 100%. You can't get anywhere near that high a proportion of the known instances in the real world. EVERY SINGLE person who's released their zanpaktou on screen has shown knowledge of it's name.
That's "consistent". That's the very definition of consistent(the definition of consistency being based on a lack of contradiction rather than any number of experiments).

That's a very limited "consistent" you are talking about. When i say consistent, i mean it in a much wider term. Seeing only blond females in my vicinity is consistent. But what if we look at the larger picture? If the entire world contained only blond females, THAT would be true consistency.

The consistency you value so much only has meaning in the scientific world if the observable instance is large enough. I can hardly make the conclusion that the females in the entire world are blond, based on 3 girls i met.

And if we look at the manga, what is the ACTUAL observable instance? The actual observable instance.......is only 1. In the entire manga, the only shinigami that we have seen actually obtaining shikai for THE VERY FIRST TIME is Ichigo.

Now, even IF we assume that all of the captain and VC level shinigami depicted have obtained their shikai release by learning the name (and several other fodder shinigami), the total number would still be around a measly 30 shinigami (give or take a few). In scientific terms, making conclusions based on only 30 observable instances is already considered suspect. You have to atleast have a minimum of 100 before they even start taking you seriously (atleast based on my limited experience following scientific experiments).

Actually no. As seen with Ikkaku, your zanpaktou is sealed back when you pass out as well, and you can't do something subconsciously when you're unconscious.
So whether it's permanent shikai or resealed is not dependent on your control.

Ummm, breathing is considered a subconscious action as well. And you can do that while being unconscious. If you can do things while not being aware (like being unconscious), that's the very definition of subconscious.

And the nice thing about breathing, is that it can be controlled CONSCIOUSLY as well. That's the way i see the sealing of zanpakutou. It can be done both subconsciously AND consciously.

There was also a VERY good time for Ichigo's zanpaktou to have released itself without the name if it were possible.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/50/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/50/10/

Rather than it unsealing, it starts warping to the point that it would explode, not unseal.

Nah, that wasn't unsealing. Rather, that was merely the zanpakutou changing shape, because of Ichgio's reiatsu increase. Only the sealed form has been seen to change shape in the manga. The released form has a constant shape and cannot change in size.

[neosildrake]

LOL^^ What an interesting discussion and a pointless too.

1 Kubo wrote the manga and the data book.
2 Kubo states in both that it's released.
1+2=3 It's released.

Saying anything else implies that Kubo is lying or doesn't know what he's really talking about. Even thou it is Zaraki who states it in the manga, it's still Kubo who writes it down. Of course people err and make mistakes, but to imply that everything is always a mistake because you believe so or because your own theory is more to your liking is stupid.

Doubting facts straight from the author is stupid. It's like doubting the people who point at the full moon and say so, by telling them that's not the full moon but only an illusion and thus does not exist.

That is, of course, if you don't think Kubo lied on purpose.
However, until Kubo himself - or his appointed speaker - tells us otherwise, I believe what's stated as dacts in the manga and the data book.

[PDQ]

PDQ, if he didn't understand the distinction, he wouldn't have been adequately been able to describe the current state of his sword.
"adequately" All he said was "this is it's true form".
2 Kubo states in both that it's released.

No, he doesn't state it in the manga. There's a difference between an author having a character saying something and an author saying something himself.
Even thou it is Zaraki who states it in the manga, it's still Kubo who writes it down.

Yes, which is meaningless. Authors write from the point of view of the character, based on their knowledge, experience, perspective, and thoughts. Hence "theory of mind".

Doubting facts straight from the author is stupid. It's like doubting the people who point at the full moon and say so, by telling them that's not the full moon but only an illusion and thus does not exist.

What does that analogy have anything to do with anything? A person pointing at a circle in the sky and saying it's a full moon doesn't make it a full moon, and if someone corrects them that's it's actually Venus they're looking at, that can just as easily be correct.

The databook contains FACTS, cause it originated from the author. According to you, only the manga is canon, but the databook is an infobook from the creator of said manga and thus must also be considered canon.

Your assertion that it "must also be considered canon" is false. The only thing that must be canonical is the source of the argument itself, the manga(or if discussing the anime, the anime). Nothing else is or "must be" canonical because it's not the source of the argument.
Similarly, if the author designs a character for the Bleach anime or video game(which he often does), that does not make it canonical in the manga.

A character's background information is rarely ever relevant when they go into explanation mode. Like i've stated, in all of the manga i've read (or any story for that matter), i've never seen ANY character that was wrong when in explanation mode (unless the author himself proved otherwise), no matter WHAT their background information was.When you say "unless the author himself proved otherwise", what does that even mean? If the author openly and personally say it? By later contradictions drawn in by the author through actions/events? By character quotes later on which contradict other ones?
Let me guess, all of the above.
If that's the case, you've made a meaningless statement, because that's basically saying that you've never seen a character that was wrong unless...they were shown wrong.
Well duh? How else would you be able to tell a character is wrong until they're shown wrong?
I can just as easily make the opposite statement, I've never seen ANY character that was right when in explanation mode (unless the author himself proved otherwise). Talk about an overwhelming exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwhelming_exception).

And the manga has kenpachi stating his sword was released.

For the sake of argument, yes, it has Kenpachi stating that.

In fact, one can even say the databook could be seen as an addition to the manga or part of the manga.
Not really since it's really a side development and not included in the manga, mainly to appease the fans. Hardly any difference from an anime or game really.

I suppose it really depends on what we're arguing about. If we're arguing about the status in Bleach the manga, or Bleach the anime for that matter, then no, it hasn't been shown to be shikai. If we're arguing about some hypothetical "Bleach universe" where all official Bleach merchandise is used as a mere looking glass into (which I don't really partake in arguing about as it is an artificial construct beyond the scope of any piece of work and ends up in the same situation as Star Wars obssessed fans arguing about which books and works to take as canonical), then sure, it's Shikai.

In scientific terms, making conclusions based on only 30 observable instances is already considered suspect
Although in statistical terms, it is a sufficient sample size for testing hypotheses for statistical significance.
Nah, that wasn't unsealing. Rather, that was merely the zanpakutou changing shape, because of Ichgio's reiatsu increase. Only the sealed form has been seen to change shape in the manga. The released form has a constant shape and cannot change in size.
Exactly, having too much reiatsu doesn't cause your zanpaktou to unseal, so your statement that
Apparently, if he is to be believed, Ichigo could have released without the name as well, since he also started out with massive reiatsu.
shows quite evidently that Kenpachi ISN'T to be believed. Massive reiatsu doesn't unseal your sword, instead it can cause it to explode.

[jonat3]

"adequately" All he said was "this is it's true form".

Yeah. He did. AND he stated his sword had no seal on it. AND Ichigo took his meaning to be that his sword was released. Even you agreed that Zaraki meant his sword was released. If even the biggest naysayers are saying that zaraki said his sword was released after being shown chapter 109 and 120, then that is adequate enough.


No, he doesn't state it in the manga. There's a difference between an author having a character saying something and an author saying something himself.

Having a character state it, it's like coming from the author himself. Explanation mode remember?

Your assertion that it "must also be considered canon" is false. The only thing that must be canonical is the source of the argument itself, the manga(or if discussing the anime, the anime). Nothing else is or "must be" canonical because it's not the source of the argument.
Similarly, if the author designs a character for the Bleach anime or video game(which he often does), that does not make it canonical in the manga.

It's canonical, because:

1. It's from the author
2. It concerns bleach (hell, it's a BLEACH databook)

The things Kubo wrote in the databook, he could have done as well as aftervolume thoughts that he usually scribbles. The only difference is that he decided to release it seperately and more detailed. That you see the databook as a different beast entirely makes no sense at all.

When you say "unless the author himself proved otherwise", what does that even mean? If the author openly and personally say it? By later contradictions drawn in by the author through actions/events? By character quotes later on which contradict other ones?
Let me guess, all of the above.

Exactly.

If that's the case, you've made a meaningless statement, because that's basically saying that you've never seen a character that was wrong unless...they were shown wrong.

Exactly right again.

Well duh? How else would you be able to tell a character is wrong until they're shown wrong?

But you see, that's the point. Zaraki was never shown to be wrong. The "evidence" you brought to the table is not only circumstancial, but it doesn't disprove anything. Even your argument about "consistency" is a flawed argument. Consistency can be interrupted. And Kubo chose Zaraki as that interruption.

In the end, if the manga had no clear way to show that Zaraki was wrong, that makes it 99% certain he was right. It is an author's job to properly convey their meaning and intent to the readers. Having characters make incorrect statements and not making it clear that it was incorrect is a big NO NO.

Since the author did not properly disprove Zaraki's statement, his intent was obviously that Zaraki had it right. Which is confirmed through the databook.

I can just as easily make the opposite statement, I've never seen ANY character that was right when in explanation mode (unless the author himself proved otherwise). Talk about an overwhelming exception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwhelming_exception).

Yeah so? Like the wikipedia link says, an overwhelming sentence is correct in essence. If you are saying that my sentence is correct in essence, you are basically admitting that Zaraki had it right. Afterall, the author did not clearly demonstrate that he was incorrect.


For the sake of argument, yes, it has Kenpachi stating that.

Ok.

Not really since it's really a side development and not included in the manga, mainly to appease the fans. Hardly any difference from an anime or game really.

No, an anime can differ from the manga, since the author is (usually) minimally involved. Same for games. But both the databook and the manga has the author's personal involvement. And the databook is a FACT book about the bleach manga. Games and anime are linked to the manga not by the author, but by subject material. But the databook and the manga are LINKED by the author himself. That was his intent.

I suppose it really depends on what we're arguing about. If we're arguing about the status in Bleach the manga, or Bleach the anime for that matter, then no, it hasn't been shown to be shikai. If we're arguing about some hypothetical "Bleach universe" where all official Bleach merchandise is used as a mere looking glass into (which I don't really partake in arguing about as it is an artificial construct beyond the scope of any piece of work and ends up in the same situation as Star Wars obssessed fans arguing about which books and works to take as canonical), then sure, it's Shikai.

In regards to viewing this matter, it should obviously be viewed through the "bleach universe", instead of just a single entity, the manga. Seeing the story through multiple sources yields greater accuracy. Sure, the manga may have implied that Zaraki's sword was sealed. But you and I both know that is not what Kubo believes or wanted us to believe.

The truth is quite apparent here. His sword is released. If you say that the manga still implied different from Kubo's own intent, Kubo should be blamed for being too vague in the manga.


Although in statistical terms, it is a sufficient sample size for testing hypotheses for statistical significance.

Ok.

Exactly, having too much reiatsu doesn't cause your zanpaktou to unseal, so your statement that

shows quite evidently that Kenpachi ISN'T to be believed. Massive reiatsu doesn't unseal your sword, instead it can cause it to explode.

Yeah, Yama's zanpakutou probably exploded. :nuts

On a more serious note, since i believe that not every captain had his zanpakutou explode, an explosion is only a risk if the user's reiatsu HIGHLY increased in a single instant. That's my impression.

But if one had massive reiatsu from the start or one gained reiatsu GREATLY (just enough not for the zanpakutou to explode) one might be able to unseal the sword.

An explosion is only ONE outcome of massive reiatsu. It doesn't have to be the only one.

[neosildrake]

The thing with the "high reiatsu causes zanpakuto to exlode" is kinda stupid - imo. Here is what I think (I could be wrong^^.):

A zanpakuto cannot really "exlode" from high reiatsu under normal circumstances, because most later shinigami have shown way more power than Ichigo at that moment and their zanpakuto did't explode. It, however, was (probably) into it's shikai and bankai form at that moments.

Ichigo was an exception, because Rukias powers were put on top of his own. They woke his own and caused the zanpakuto to become a sealed big-size one first. later against the gillian his own powers took over and tried to change the zanpakuto into Ichigos own form, which would have resulted in it's (Rukia-based form) destruction and possible reformation - if Ichigo had survived the destruction, which I doubt, because of Rukias powers working like a stopper/cork at a champagner bottle and Ichigos lack of control.

In fact I believe control of the reiatsu is the problem with the "huge energy releases zanpakuto into shikai form". Zangetsu gave Ichigo his name, because Ichigo listened and wanted to find out unlike Kenpachi who didn't give a damn. Otherwise Ichigo would have a shikai-zanpakuto and not know his name. I'm sure Yamamoto sotaicho has enough energy to have released zanpakuto, but did he always had that much at his disposal or did it grow through training and experience? The moment he got his zanpakuto is what's crucial and both Ichigo - because of his new hybrid powers, his normal extremely big ones as well as the fact that he was in a big battle with Urahara - and Kenpachi had released immense reiastu at the moment their zanpakutos formed, so much that the sealed form would not be able to hold all the power in. It's like trying to shoot a cannonball-size reiatsu with a 9mm gun zanpakuto - impossible. you need a cannon to shoot a cannonball.

Kenpachi wears the eyepatch because he's not the best at reiatsu control and frankly he seems to give a flying **** about control. lowering the reiatsu is for sissis in his opinion - if you cannot stand the heat, leave the kitchen. But because a constant reiatsu glow-beacon would cause severe headache and confuse other shinigamis senses (look at how human Ichigo kinda blocked Rujias senses at the beginning), he wears a special eyepatch.

That's my belief at least.

PS: Certain people have to leave behind the idea that those characters are real. they are fictional and behave as the author wants them. if he wants them right, they will be right, if he wants them wrong, they will be wrong. They have no will or mind of their own. They live according to script. If the script says they have to be shown wrong, then they will be shown wrong. The thing is, we, the readers have no look at the script, we only see what the author want's us to see. It's like walking an unknown road. You cannot see and you don't know what's behind the next corner. All you can see and know is your current surrounding and the path you've already cleared.

That means there might come a time when Kubo declares that Kenpachi or any other character was wrong, because it fits the plot better or because he intended to do so from the start. (I've seen mangas contradict themselves before, because of later implications and logical errors created by later developments.) But until he does so and if nothing really points towards it, we have - by default - go with the stated facts or notions, if you are aversed to the word fact, that he is right.

The sole existence of a author written/approved Data book, which is only there to state facts about the universe it was written for and to answer exactly these kind of questions, should be enough to take it as a true fact. If you say otherwise you can also say that Aizen is only a misunderstood creature who wants to create a better, nicer soul society, because if you imply that an author stated fact is wrong for the sole reason that it doesn't fit into your concept, then all stated facts have an equally chance to be wrong too. That however means that the data book is a bunch of written lies depending on how you look at it, which would make it worthless and no better than the next sunday issue of *The Sun* or the *Bild*.

[Yachiru Kusajishi]

I think it's sealed, it's all his power.

[rambler01]

This post is directed to Neosildrake, Jonat; and anyone else who are hardcore advocates of the databook. Make sure you read this carefully.........................I DON'T CARE WHAT THE DATABOOK SAYS!!!!

In the STORYLINE that KUBO has wrote down, it was made VERY CLEAR that a shinigami has to KNOW THE NAME of their zanpakutou for release into either shikai or bankai (there is no debating this....AT ALL). Even though Ichigo has a permanent shikai zanpakutou; he still had to learn THE NAME ZANGETSU for it to become permanently activated in the first place. Shinigami and EVEN arrancar and Espada have to know their zanpakutou name for release......but of course Kenpachi is the exception LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Listen to what you people are saying, siding with Databook means going against the Storyline....pick your poison!!

Here's the bottom line; until I see a 2nd back story that shows Kenpachi VERBALLY releasing his zanpakutou like everyone else, the zanpakutou at this present time IS NOT SHIKAI. I'll keep saying this until you people get tired of reading it........The STORYLINE says knowing a zanpakutou name is THE KEY to releasing it. (BY the way, it is KUBO who wrote the storyline, so do you databook advocates deny the storyline and what it CLEARLY stated about the nature of zanpakutou?????:notrust)

I understand Kenpachi said his zanpakutou was in it's "TRUE FORM" and that it was "UNSEALED". Ok, i get that.......that doesn't mean its in SHIKAI either. An Unsealed, but NAMELESS zanpakutou being in shikai???? That sounds laughable and absolutely ridiculous!!!!

[Solar Bankai]

This post is directed to Neosildrake, Jonat; and anyone else who are hardcore advocates of the databook. Make sure you read this carefully.........................I DON'T CARE WHAT THE DATABOOK SAYS!!!!

Stop ignoring evidence that you cannot disprove to support your theory. The databook is a canon source of information provided by Kubo, whether you like it or not.

In the STORYLINE that KUBO has wrote down, it was made VERY CLEAR that a shinigami has to KNOW THE NAME of their zanpakutou for release into either shikai or bankai (there is no debating this....AT ALL). Even though Ichigo has a permanent shikai zanpakutou; he still had to learn THE NAME ZANGETSU for it to become permanently activated in the first place. Shinigami and EVEN arrancar and Espada have to know their zanpakutou name for release......but of course Kenpachi is the exception LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Listen to what you people are saying, siding with Databook means going against the Storyline....pick your poison!!

We do not have to go against the storyline at all; we can make EXACTLY the same argument by saying that, until it is outright stated that the name must be known to activate shikai, it isn't the case. And of course, that has not been said at all.

It should be painfully obvious that in most ways, Kenpachi IS an exception to most rules.

Here's the bottom line; until I see a 2nd back story that shows Kenpachi VERBALLY releasing his zanpakutou like everyone else, the zanpakutou at this present time IS NOT SHIKAI. I'll keep saying this until you people get tired of reading it........The STORYLINE says knowing a zanpakutou name is THE KEY to releasing it. (BY the way, it is KUBO who wrote the storyline, so do you databook advocates deny the storyline and what it CLEARLY stated about the nature of zanpakutou?????:notrust)

I understand Kenpachi said his zanpakutou was in it's "TRUE FORM" and that it was "UNSEALED". Ok, i get that.......that doesn't mean its in SHIKAI either. An Unsealed, but NAMELESS zanpakutou being in shikai???? That sounds laughable and absolutely ridiculous!!!!

For the first paragraph...no. It was never explicitly said, and is thus irrelevant. As to the second, on at least one other occasion (I remember Renji, at the very least), a shikai has been stated to be the true form. So yes, it is in the shikai form - and that is what the databook confirms. Kenpachi said it was unsealed; databook says it was in shikai like Ichigo's.

What you have here is exactly what you are asking for - a further piece of supporting evidence from Kubo to say that yes, Kenpachi was correct.