Is humanity worth abandoning for reason and logic?

[Sabaku no Ira]

The big dollar question: how important is humanity? WHY is it important? Why shouldn't we let go of our primitive instincts completely (when we have a choice) and let reason and logic take over? I'm perfectly neutral in this matter.

Discuss.

[Mizura]

Because humanity Is born out of a (felt) logical reasoning.

Why ban the right to kill? Because this way, nobody else would kill you either. Why ban the right to steal? So you can keep your own things. Why have a whole legal administrative system in place? So you have a minimum of guarantee when you're doing cooperative work with other human beings. Without such guarantee, nobody would be doing anything with anyone, and given how notoriously useless a human being is on his or her own, we'd still be stuck in the Stone age. :oh Don't you rather be wasting time chatting on the internet?

If you're talking about arts and whatnot though... they don't hurt, they keep the economy going and somehow help keep society in place, so might as well let them be.

[Nybarius]

I for one embrace our post-human future. I believe we are not much longer for the flesh. The singularity is coming, not because of God, but because of machines. I'd even be willing to sacrifice individual agency for ... something greater.

[Mizura]

The thing is, in the absolute, nothing really matters. Whether we live or die, to the universe, it's completely unimportant. So we must retain "something" to at least "believe" in the importance of our existance. All we can do is assume that a human life is somehow important and that comfort and whatnot are also "important" and build from there.

Otherwise, we might as well die. Because in the absolute, nothing, really, is "important".

[Nybarius]

But is that all we can do? Even asking the question makes it obvious that it isn't. It might be the best we can do, for now, but there are certainly different ways of constructing the world. Some might emphasize knowledge about all else, or material accomplishment, or epicurean delight--slightly different from comfort.

If I want to be part of a disembodied hive-mind that spans the galaxy, it's myyyyy choice!

[Sabaku no Ira]

But is that all we can do? Even asking the question makes it obvious that it isn't. It might be the best we can do, for now, but there are certainly different ways of constructing the world. Some might emphasize knowledge about all else, or material accomplishment, or epicurean delight--slightly different from comfort.

If I want to be part of a disembodied hive-mind that spans the galaxy, it's myyyyy choice!

The Borg is the answer! :laugh

The thing is, in the absolute, nothing really matters. Whether we live or die, to the universe, it's completely unimportant. So we must retain "something" to at least "believe" in the importance of our existance. All we can do is assume that a human life is somehow important and that comfort and whatnot are also "important" and build from there.

Otherwise, we might as well die. Because in the absolute, nothing, really, is "important".

Which is part of the reason why I'm asking that. Why do we cling on to this "thing" known as life? We know that it is not important, so what's the point of keeping it?

[tri-sapphire]

*Reads Black Sun Rising*

*Wishes he could abandon his humanity to that degree, and with that gain :evil*

*Hopes someone gets the reference :P*

[Mizura]

Because, after all, we're biological beings who want to continue biological functions. *shrugs* If the human species didn't want to survive, we wouldn't have made it to today in the first place.

In the meantime, it doesn't matter if we die, but it doesn't matter if we live either. Our biological instincts then tip the scale towards "living". Next. And yes, what we decide to live for is completely arbitrary: god, art, science, whatever. It's nice to have self-made absolutes to chase after though because it really helps to advance that field, which might turn out useful for the species on the whole on the long run, even if it doesn't do any good to the individual on the short run.

[Sabaku no Ira]

Or the goal is to abandon humanity altogether and give into reason and logic.

But what's the point? Why is it important to maintain this thing called "humanity"? Once we've lost humanity don't we lose the desire to live as well?

[Nybarius]

I believe before this conversation can progress we should define what we mean by "humanity." What are its essential features?

[Mizura]

That's what I'm saying: it's not "important". Nothing, in the absolute sense, is actually important. "Important" is a relative term made up solely for our own arbitrary uses.

Those who decide to attach "importance" (ie arbitrary term) to humanity thus have a "reason" to live on. Those who don't... don't. We might as well put it another way: why read the Naruto manga? Well... why not? Unconsciously we attach at least a small amount of "importance" to the act, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it at all, but so what if we read it?

We're just free to define what's "important" to us. Some people find shoes "important", whatever. Precisely because there's nothing important, we're free to define what we do find important. Now there are just a few "axioms" that the human species more or less follows as a whole (there are deviations, but the base is there, otherwise the species wouldn't be there in the first place), axioms being things we define as "given" (important, whatever) without "proof", logic, whatever, and one of those axioms is the axiom of "humanity", the one that states that the human species is somehow "important". From an absolute point of view, really, it's an arbitrary statement. Though we're instinctively programmed to believe this to be true, because otherwise we wouldn't be here wondering about it. We're free to make up reasons to justify our stance (higher ideals, art, science, religion), but really, there's nothing to prove. But... whatever works. As long as it keeps the kiddies occupied.

Really. In the end... "important" is an arbitrary term. "humanity" is an arbitrary term. But whatever works.

[Nybarius]

Mizura: "Caught in this sensual song all neglect /
Monuments of undying intellect /"

or else,

"...perne in a gyre /
Consume my heart away, sick with desire /
And fastened to a dying animal /
It knows not what it is"

[Mizura]

Mizura: "Caught in this sensual song all neglect /
Monuments of undying intellect /"
I'll be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as I'm concerned, in the absolute sense, nothing matters. So we just make up things that We decide are "important", and live for those. It might be a false illusion, but it keeps things moving, besides it isn't "important" if we believe in those either.

There are just a number of "common" grounds brought on by the fact that as as living species, we strive for survival and comfort (thus, the "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" "absolutes"), but after that, some people dedicate their lives to drinking wine or the likes. :oh Whatever works. I've read once in a magazine, this person in the fashion industry who was saying how she can't stand people who neglect fashion... she arbitrarily chose fashion as "important". I didn't. Choice.

[Nybarius]

I'm talking about the desire for transcendence. Perfect 0. That is, all these signifiers, whether they be God or fashion, keep us chained to the flesh; but if we could merge more completely with computers, and take up a digital form of reproduction, then an immortal significance is within our grasp, although in "absolute" terms in remains unimportant, as does everything.

Specifically I'm quoting this poem: "http://www.online-literature.com/yeats/781/"

Paradoxically the desire for nothing might be the only thing that makes life worth living, although it also, necessarily, has us flirt with the void.

By the way check out that poem if you like poetry, it's one of my favorites. "An old man is but a paltry thing, a tattered cloak upon a stick..." -- good to quote in some doujin :>

[Mizura]

Merge with computers eh? Same questions:
- why?
- why not?

It doesn't have any more significance to it than anything else. It's still just being a certain set of atoms in a certain disposition that on the greater scheme of things does not matter at all. So some people set "perfect zero" as "important." It's no more "important" than anything else in the world, since nothing really matters. In the end, it's just another set of arbitrary atoms setting up an arbitrary goal.

[Nybarius]

Well, why: to evolve to a new kind of being.

And your reason for this? It would strip us of fleshy desires, the artifacts of evolution.

And why? No reason, something to do -- the hunger for more, if nothing else.

There is no meaning of life; life is the meaning.

[tri-sapphire]

A question that should be asked before "Why humanity" is this:

What is humanity?

I'm pretty sure that if you guys posted your definitions down, you would find them to be quite different :amuse.

[Mizura]

Ah, but then you'd be setting "life" as the "meaning", as "what's important", whatever. :tem

Truth is, every notion that we have, every term or description, only has the significance that we put into it. To the universe, nothing matters, not even the atomical disposition known as "life".

In the "absolute" sense, nothing has any meaning. It's only from a relative point of view that everything takes "significance" so to say ("significance" also being an arbitrary term). So what's important? Nothing really. But from my Relative point of view, I'm thus free to attach the term to whatever I want.

I think coffee is important? So be it then. Coffee is important. To me.
I think politics are important? So be it then. Politics are important. To me.
I think politics Aren't important? Then so be it too, politics aren't important to Me.
I think painting nails is important? So be it as well.

You think seeking something "greater" is important? So be it. Seeking something greater is important then. To you.

As for what is humanity, as I've said, it's just an arbitrary term created to explain and maybe give a reason for our existance. But in the "absolute" sense, there is no "reason", the Sun next door couldn't care less about us. But we decide that we are important, and we use the term "humanity" to describe this. So for us, it's good enough. Yes, basically, we're making up our own "truths", because there really isn't much out there otherwise. *shrugs* Every word we can find in this thing we call "language", they only have the significance that WE give to it. Not the universe. Because the universe doesn't care.

If we decide that blowing bubbles through our noses is the most important thing in the world, then it'd become the most important thing in the world, to us at least, because by definition, and we're the ones who make up definitions, it'd be the most important thing in the world.

[Nybarius]

A question that should be asked before "Why humanity" is this:

What is humanity?

I'm pretty sure that if you guys posted your definitions down, you would find them to be quite different :amuse.


I believe before this conversation can progress we should define what we mean by "humanity." What are its essential features?

.................

[tri-sapphire]

.................

Sorry :sweatdrop, it's late here (4:08 am).

I'd like to join the debate, but I just can't seem to understand what you guys think humanity is. Here are some definitions from dictionary.com

1. Humans considered as a group; the human race.
2. The condition or quality of being human.
3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.
4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.

While you two seem to be focusing on the 1st and 2nd definition, I kinda think the 3rd and 4th fit better.

Anyways, I'll try to make some sense of what you guys are saying when I'm a bit more awake :oh.

[Nybarius]

The problem with the third and fourth definitions is that, while you might find them more laudable, they are also harder to pin down. For instance: although to modern conceptions it is barbarous, a samurai might find it perfectly "humane" to suicide when he has failed his retainer.

In discussing humanity in this thread, I am referring to "the human condition," that is, those traits of humans which set us apart from the animals; that which the Turing Test tests for.

[Mizura]

You don't understand what I'm saying? How about this:

2. The condition or quality of being human.
But the thing is, we decide Ourselves what the condition and quality of being human is. See? Absolute relativeness so to say. It doesn't matter what definition of humanity you bring up, because all definitions of humanity are in essential, arbitrary. Randomly picked for our mood of the present era.

[Nybarius]

I disagree there, Mizura, not all definitions of humanity are arbitrary, but the more absolute they are the more banal. For instance, if I say humanity is "a bipedal organism, descended from the great apes, with an erect posture that bears live young," and so on and so forth, this is true, in absolute terms, but also unilluminating.

[SpringtimeOfYouth]

It's true that it doesn't matter what we do in the absolute sense but in our human consciousesses we're all still looking for things.

I'll assume that people here have encountered the specific difficulties of the intellectual: fearing that the physical will overwhelm you, fearing that others will take away what little you have left, wanting to hide from everything that demands attention from you, etc.

Obviously underlying these attitudes there's a strong desire for something. That desire is what makes "things", "feelings", "people" important to you. But what is that which we're looking for? Even when we have these "things", "feelings" and "people" we're still lacking something. Something that's absence leaves us cold and alienated from human life wondering what its for and why it has to be so hard and unwelcoming and that no amount of reasoning or logic will protect us from it.

I think that finding whatever we're looking for, though unimportant in an absolute sense, is critically important to our personal existences because at extreme points not having it makes life nearly unlivable.

And really, I think intellectualism, reason and logic aren't the best ways to approach this search though it's a place to start. I think this search has more to do with who we are at every moment than what tidbits of knowledge or mannerisms of thinking that we've picked up over the course of our lives (because we're really only satisifed when we're living in the present moment rather than working off past fears and attitdes).

So while it doesn't matter whether you give in totally to reason and logic and leave out the humanistic side of experiencing and desire, it'll just be an act of escapism from something you don't need to escape from because life can be extremely satisfying (at every moment) once you know and have found what you're looking for. Really, our existence is quite unimaginably awesome.

[Mizura]

I disagree there, Mizura, not all definitions of humanity are arbitrary, but the more absolute they are the more banal.
I disagree with You. :tem Definition of "homos sapiens sapiens" isn't arbitrary, but "humanity" is a completely different matter, because it is subjective. Some people define humanity according to this or that test. Um... so? Humanity is a test? So if something else manages that test, that thing can take on the word "humanity"? Some define it according to sociological criteria, some according to the individual's attachment to "God" for some reason, etc.

But really. Why define "humanity" this or that way? There is no REASON for us to be favoring this or that criteria when nit-pickingly trying to differentiate ourselves from other species. Some people say that humanity stands out because we show the ability to try to suicide. Why the heck would that be "significant"? The term "significant" itself is something that we arbitrarily attach to this or that.

[SpringtimeOfYouth]

In the "absolute" sense, nothing has any meaning. It's only from a relative point of view that everything takes "significance" so to say ("significance" also being an arbitrary term). So what's important? Nothing really. But from my Relative point of view, I'm thus free to attach the term to whatever I want.

I think coffee is important? So be it then. Coffee is important. To me.
I think politics are important? So be it then. Politics are important. To me.
I think politics Aren't important? Then so be it too, politics aren't important to Me.
I think painting nails is important? So be it as well.

You think seeking something "greater" is important? So be it. Seeking something greater is important then. To you.

As for what is humanity, as I've said, it's just an arbitrary term created to explain and maybe give a reason for our existance. But in the "absolute" sense, there is no "reason", the Sun next door couldn't care less about us. But we decide that we are important, and we use the term "humanity" to describe this. So for us, it's good enough. Yes, basically, we're making up our own "truths", because there really isn't much out there otherwise. *shrugs* Every word we can find in this thing we call "language", they only have the significance that WE give to it. Not the universe. Because the universe doesn't care.

If we decide that blowing bubbles through our noses is the most important thing in the world, then it'd become the most important thing in the world, to us at least, because by definition, and we're the ones who make up definitions, it'd be the most important thing in the world.



Very much true and false as well. In the absolute sense nothing really matters, but as much as you might want to convince yourself, any person's attitudes will reflect differently (unless, of course, they've found the unconditional source of what they're looking for - in that case one can truly be satisfied with nothing having any importance whatsoever). There's really not that much arbitrariness to what we deem important, we do have some capacity to decide what material object or activity or even feeling is important to us but we do not have the capacity to truly change the way in which we desire it or the reason why we desire it (of course we can lie to ourselves and deny our desire for it, but its most definitely still there). All our lives we desire the same thing, or rather the same sort of experiencing.

[Nybarius]

I disagree with You. :tem Definition of "homos sapiens sapiens" isn't arbitrary, but "humanity" is a completely different matter, because it is subjective.

Subjective doesn't necessarily imply arbitrary. From an n=1 standpoint, subjective can be quite absolute.


Some people define humanity according to this or that test. Um... so? Humanity is a test? So if something else manages that test, that thing can take on the word "humanity"?

Saying humanity can be gauged by a test is not the same as saying humanity IS a test. Rather, the test is trying to get at something, "humanity". For instance, there are tests for diabetes, say, a certain level of blood sugar; but the conditions for passing that test aren't diabetes itself.


But really. Why define "humanity" this or that way?

For one: to make it more effective to communicate with one another about humanity.

There is no REASON for us to be favoring this or that criteria when nit-pickingly trying to differentiate ourselves from other species.

Of course there are reasons, or we wouldn't do it. Even just wanting to be different is a reason. Also, there ARE significant differences between humans and other species, and oftentimes they are worth talking about.


Some people say that humanity stands out because we show the ability to try to suicide. Why the heck would that be "significant"?

Since this is a "test," perhaps its significant because it provides a good way to discern human from non-human. If some non-human entity came along that passed the test, the test would be rendered invalid, but not necessarily the concept of humanity.


The term "significant" itself is something that we arbitrarily attach to this or that.

Yes, that's how language works. But what's your point?

[earthshine]

we need our humanity to survive, in all honesty. it is what puts the fire behind what we do, our work, our inventions, evrything. there is no passion in dry logic, we would have no motivation, no drive, we would improve till we where just good enough, then stop until more was needed. besides, we have computers to do just that. why should we become organic computers? we have gotten this far on our humanity, so i think we are just fine as it is

[Nybarius]

we need our humanity to survive, in all honesty. it is what puts the fire behind what we do, our work, our inventions, evrything. there is no passion in dry logic, we would have no motivation, no drive, we would improve till we where just good enough, then stop until more was needed. besides, we have computers to do just that. why should we become organic computers? we have gotten this far on our humanity, so i think we are just fine as it is

I'm glad so many people think like you do. It makes it that much easier to rise to the top when there are so many people desperate to cling to obsolete old models.

[earthshine]

I'm glad so many people think like you do. It makes it that much easier to rise to the top when there are so many people desperate to cling to obsolete old models.

heh, ok, let me ask u this, y do u wish to rise to the top? is it logic? reason? no, its your drive to be better, but if u had no humanity, you would just be satisfied with your current station in life, never wanting more. do u thnik computers care what they are used for?

[Eden Prime]

To me, humanity isn't a helpful race of creature, it's Earth's poison. Without humans, Earth would be in much better condition and so many other animals would have been spared. I wonder if humans have a more significant role in the future, like saving the Planet. I really don't know, however, i never stop hoping that humans will stop poisoning this planet. *goes and starts a camp-fire.* lol.

[Nybarius]

To me, humanity isn't a helpful race of creature, it's Earth's poison. Without humans, Earth would be in much better condition and so many other animals would have been spared. I wonder if humans have a more significant role in the future, like saving the Planet. I really don't know, however, i never stop hoping that humans will stop poisoning this planet. *goes and starts a camp-fire.* lol.

Suggestion: kill yourself.

[Sabaku no Ira]

So let me put it in this way: if I make it my lifetime goal to abandon my humanity and leave behind my feelings, emotions and desires, I have no moral obligations?

[Danny Lilithborne]

So let me put it in this way: if I make it my lifetime goal to abandon my humanity and leave behind my feelings, emotions and desires, I have no moral obligations?It's true. You will have no moral obligations. What's your point? Threads like this tend to degenerate into nothing more than mental masturbation. Do you just like to hear yourself talk?

[Sabaku no Ira]

No, I just need some reassurance from other people to make sure that I'm not doing the wrong thing.

Don't worry, seems like after this I won't be making threads like this: death threads shall return. :)

[Cthulhu-versailles]

-err wait so do you won't to abadon humanity you mean, if that's the case become a hermit and yu need not ask anymore question. However, if you wish to do so while other people are around you need only do something that they view and the general consus of people would view as "wrong". After this you will be deemed outfit to leave in society and sent tojail. However, in jail that is still living under the guise of humanity, therefore you must commit more autrocious acts to the opint where you are perceive entirely made- Thus enjoy the mental institution.

-if you left behind deisre... you would never eat... if you left behind emotion you would be unable to find any work... if you left behind feelings you would break some law.. or do you mean feeling like touching skin. Oh wait do you mean relationships.- If so depends on your self validation and self worth perception.

Ps: what did you mean by some reassurance about doing the wrong thing?

Also if this is your apparent goal, may I ask how are you pursuing this goal of yours?

...I think your not since your um... on the internet.. on a forum!

[Sabaku no Ira]

-err wait so do you won't to abadon humanity you mean, if that's the case become a hermit and yu need not ask anymore question. However, if you wish to do so while other people are around you need only do something that they view and the general consus of people would view as "wrong". After this you will be deemed outfit to leave in society and sent tojail. However, in jail that is still living under the guise of humanity, therefore you must commit more autrocious acts to the opint where you are perceive entirely made- Thus enjoy the mental institution.

-if you left behind deisre... you would never eat... if you left behind emotion you would be unable to find any work... if you left behind feelings you would break some law.. or do you mean feeling like touching skin. Oh wait do you mean relationships.- If so depends on your self validation and self worth perception.
Why couldn't I get work without emotions? I can feint having emotions without actually having them: that's what psychopaths do, and the best of them are highly successful, I may add. :)

[Sabaku no Ira]

(post too long so I'm forced to double-post)



Ps: what did you mean by some reassurance about doing the wrong thing?

Also if this is your apparent goal, may I ask how are you pursuing this goal of yours?

...I think your not since your um... on the internet.. on a forum!

First question: I just want to know if I'm doing the wrong thing if I'm pursuing such a goal.

Second question: I believe the answer lies in science- first I'm going to abandon my emotions and feelings altogether, then I'll study the human body in order to find mechanical replacements. It's going to take a long time, I know. It may not even work.

But it's the worth trying. :)

As for the final query... well, I haven't started, and still arguing with myself and wonder whether if I SHOULD start. Seeing the response that I'm having...:evil

[metalanime]

If I had the opportunity to abandon humanity in every sense for something that I truly reasonably and logically believed was greater, I definately would. Theres not much about humanity that is all that great in my eyes. Not much more than intelligent parasites, and though there are things about humanity that are good, I believe that given the opportunity to go the the next step would be infinitly better than staying where things are now.

[opium4themasses]

Wow. Let's do a little cleaning here. Your notions of reason and logic and your notions of "humanity" are hopelessly entwined. The only logical systems we know of were all created by humans.

Just to maybe hash this argument out a bit more. If by humanity, you mean our emotional and intuitive sides, without them what you seem to consider logic would be flimsy. What is logic without the premises and imaginitive solutions that it operates on?

People seem to imagine science as only rigorous testing and strict adherence to protocol. Real science seems to be much more about finding new ways to use knowledge we already have and applying it in interesting ways.

If people would like to flesh out the definition of humanity in this case, please do so, as I am struggling to determine what you mean.

As for the Nihilism I was reading, what a bunch of crap. Let me assure you, a fundamental meaninglessness of the world does not leave us with nothing. Please think for a moment how liberating it truly is that the world has no meaning predetermined for us. We make the world have meaning. Our purposes and desires make it possible to make value judgements even in a world without ultimate meaning.

On the amorality of a purely logical world, logic, most especially, allows for value judgments to be made even when those judgments may be based on as simple as utility.

[Sabaku no Ira]

Wow. Let's do a little cleaning here. Your notions of reason and logic and your notions of "humanity" are hopelessly entwined. The only logical systems we know of were all created by humans.

Just to maybe hash this argument out a bit more. If by humanity, you mean our emotional and intuitive sides, without them what you seem to consider logic would be flimsy. What is logic without the premises and imaginitive solutions that it operates on?

Logic operates on fundamental assumptions. I can still make assumptions according to personal experiences.



People seem to imagine science as only rigorous testing and strict adherence to protocol. Real science seems to be much more about finding new ways to use knowledge we already have and applying it in interesting ways.

If people would like to flesh out the definition of humanity in this case, please do so, as I am struggling to determine what you mean.

Humanity as in connection to other people, relationships, and compassion.



As for the Nihilism I was reading, what a bunch of crap. Let me assure you, a fundamental meaninglessness of the world does not leave us with nothing. Please think for a moment how liberating it truly is that the world has no meaning predetermined for us. We make the world have meaning. Our purposes and desires make it possible to make value judgements even in a world without ultimate meaning.

On the amorality of a purely logical world, logic, most especially, allows for value judgments to be made even when those judgments may be based on as simple as utility.

How can the world have meaning when nothing feels like important to me anymore?

[opium4themasses]

How can the world have meaning when nothing feels like important to me anymore?

While angst may look cool in pop culture, it's annoying in real lfe. Please drop it.

I can't believe I am having to convince someone who seems to be saying they are Christian that Nihilism is an untenable situation.

I already described how liberating moving past Nihilism is, please reread it.

[Sabaku no Ira]

... You're right in a way. Life does have a meaning when we give it one.

However, I'm not going to. According to studies, those who are depressed and angst are the one who can observe the world more subjectively. I'm not going to give that up.

[metalanime]

generally speaking, humanity or what normally passes or consists of humanity anyway, isnt worth much in the first place

[Sabaku no Ira]

Hence why should I keep my humanity? Why should I be human? What do will it do to preserve something that's utterly useless and potentially hindering?

[metalanime]

exactly my point

[Cthulhu-versailles]

...you know what I just realized SABAKU NO IRA, if you really wanted to abandon humanity you would need to kill yourself, otherwise you are still within the confines of humanity. Therefore your goal cannot be accomplished until you R.I.P

[Sabaku no Ira]

So you're saying that psychopaths like Hannibal Lector and Ted Bundy are human...? :)

Besides, given enough time, technology will be so advanced that we'll be able to replace our body parts with machinary- that will be the time when I abandon this frail organic body of mine and turn into a full machine. :)

[blacklusterseph004]

I don't think that humanity is worth abandoning. Humans are capable of more than reason and logic, so in a sense abandoning humanity is placing limits on yourself. Without humanity mankind doesn't advance. Desire and emotion elevate us beyond what reason and logic can acheive by itself.

[metalanime]

just learn to USE humanity, start by getting those oxygen carrying nanamachines injected into your blood so you can stay under water for 15 minutes on one breath, and do meditation, slow down your aging, become more than human by using thier technology, then out live them and gain all the knowledge you can. Look for the crystal skulls too.

[Cthulhu-versailles]

...Sabaku- Please tell me exactly- I mean exactly how you plan to abadon humanity.

Please outline in

Reasearch
Goals
Method


After you do this I will counter every pharse(exageration) in your post and convince you of the insanity in your suggesting.

-You don't need to be social- Inverts>extraverts-but your thinking seems um... errr well... gosh..ahem...A psycological response to a tramatic incident that accured in your life, that has forced you to take on the defnese mecanism of having to project a completle disintrest in the concept of humanity.

Your suggesting that serial killers fall outside the spectrum... NO they don't. Serial killers in most cases are seeking attention and thrill. They have anti-social disorder. Which means they cannot resignate empathy and the emotions of others. Therefore to completly do what you wish to do you need to become unhuman. However, this in itself is impossible. This is not a Godamn movie- If you a computer you can't surpass your programing. Your a human so even if you become a hermit(like myself) a killing machine(like myself) a slut(like msyelf) or any number of other things your still human.

Your goal is a by product of watching to much anime or tv rooted in the heart of fantastical thinking. Your ideal is just that an ideal, that has no foundation to ever be accomplished....This is called delusion of grandeur.

-I'm not trying to diss you man, but I just realize from some of your post in other threads, this post thread is entirely serious.

-Hermits can and are healthy individual, in fact much healther and more free spirited then the average person. However, yur suggesting a root that inclines you towards the path of a serial killer. Your exhabiting all the symptoms that the black guy said people who are becoming evil have on full metal panic the second raid. -THE BLACK GUY HAS MUCH WISDOM-

-Turn your back on people- it's easy- but if your going to do it at least manipulate the hell out of them and make them dance like little puppets in your circus.:amazed

...^ Is rambeling... DISREGARD...or can you?

[Sabaku no Ira]

What else can I do then? I have completely forgotten what it's like to feel. I can hardly enjoy stuff anymore. When I meet my friends, I feel like they all hate me, HATE ME!! I tried to turn back, but I can even stand feeling anything anymore. FEELINGS CONFUSE ME! There's no way I can turn back... have no use............

[opium4themasses]

May I suggest this. (http://www.zoloft.com) Now please go get a therapist and quit trying to pass off your depression as any kind of viable worldview.

[Near]

What else can I do then? I have completely forgotten what it's like to feel. I can hardly enjoy stuff anymore. When I meet my friends, I feel like they all hate me, HATE ME!! I tried to turn back, but I can even stand feeling anything anymore. FEELINGS CONFUSE ME! There's no way I can turn back... have no use............

I feel the same damn way. I dont fit in anywhere, I am insanely conscious of everything I do, and only see the negitive in what I do. I feel bad for every single thing I do "wrong". There isnt a scenerio where I cant find a fault that I cant feel bad for. I put everyone higher then myself subconsiously. I feel no worth half the time, and feel like everyone hates me. Honestly I dont feel human most of the time.

With saying that. I wouldnt get rid of my humanity for anything. Sometimes I just have to put on some music go outside, watch the sunset, sit on a hill and stare at the clouds. After a while things seem to make sense. Its something you just cant understand or explain, its something you feel, or atleast I feel, a simple connection. At that moment nothing matters. Fuck Evolution, Society, People, Politics, Reason, etc for those few minutes everything other then you and the earth are utterly pointless.

If your going to sit there and try to find a logical reason to be human or exist, you have already lost the point. You are who you are because you are. Humans are no where near finished evolving, why destroy something as unique as life. We can not create something like this, we can only create an artificial life, duplicate at most. Do you really want to become a machine? I just cant understand that concept. Its like trying to find a mathematical algorithm to create art. You ruin the whole point.

Humans are an expression of life. I cant see it any other way even if I tried.

[Sabaku no Ira]

May I suggest this. (http://www.zoloft.com) Now please go get a therapist and quit trying to pass off your depression as any kind of viable worldview.


Lying to ourselves may be one way of maintaining our mental health. Several classic studies indicate that moderately depressed people actually deceive themselves less than so-called normal folks. Lauren C. Alloy of Temple University and Lyn Y. Abramson of the University of Wisonsin-Madison unveiled this trend by clandestinely manipulating the outcome of a series of games. Healthy subjects who participated in the games were inclined to take credit when they won the rigged games and also tpyically underestimated their contributions to the outcome when they did poorly.
Depressed subjects, however, evaluated their contributions much more accurately. In another study, psychologist Peter M. Lewinshon, professor emeritus at the University of Oregon, showed that depressives judge other people's attituded towards them far more accurately than nondepressed subjects. Furthermore, this ability actually degenerates as the psychological symptoms of depression lift in response to treatment.
Why should I give up my more subjective view of the world for a lifetime of happiness?


If your going to sit there and try to find a logical reason to be human or exist, you have already lost the point. You are who you are because you are. Humans are no where near finished evolving, why destroy something as unique as life. We can not create something like this, we can only create an artificial life, duplicate at most. Do you really want to become a machine? I just cant understand that concept. Its like trying to find a mathematical algorithm to create art. You ruin the whole point.

Humans are an expression of life. I cant see it any other way even if I tried.
I'll do anything to be rid of my humanity.

[opium4themasses]

Why should I give up my more subjective view of the world for a lifetime of happiness?
About subjective...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Nybarius]

I think he's describing anhedonia, so he's not necessarily depressed, but yeah, zoloft sounds about right. This post was not sponsored by Pfizer, Inc although Nybarius does kinda sorta work for them aight?

I think that grappling with nihilism is an important step in ones intellectual development, though. Staring into void, yadda yadda yadda.

[opium4themasses]

Oh, I understand it as part of a process. What I don't understand is how he reconciles christianity and nihilism.

[Nybarius]

I'm a hopeful sort so my guess is that perhaps the nihilism is a sign he's outgrowing Christianity? :>

[opium4themasses]

Ugh, then next comes the resentful to Christianity stage.

"ZOMG teh Christians had crusades and inqusitons like centuries ago and that was genocide. Chrisians = TEH NAZIS!@#"

Another tired stage, maybe we can convince him to read some Hume, at least then the discourse would be bearable.

//edit I just hope he's either read Nietzsche already, or we maybe can keep him from reading it now.

Remember kiddies, Hume First, Nietzsche second. Don't make the same mistake I did.

[Nybarius]

Actually the correct order is a) philosophy up to Nietzsche + Heidegger b) Nietzsche c) the early pragmatists d) the neo-existentialists

Or just watch The Simpsons, it's all there.

Yay thread derailment!

[opium4themasses]

I think the thread already made it to the last stop, and people stayed around for it to go back.

As far as the order of reading, Hume predates Nietzsche. If one read in order of publish date, but that seems a terrible way to read for understanding.

I dunno, I'm in a Hume mood of late, so I recommend him. His thoughts seem to do a good job of countering post-modernism and offer a way to make a firm base in our ever shifting sands.

[Nybarius]

Yaknow, I really do hate po-mo, but it's hard to do anything about it in a university setting. Ever check out Richard Rorty?

[opium4themasses]

Nope, afraid not. Probably discussed him in Philosophy Club though. That was the best excuse to get a slight buzz ever. You'd be amazed what a little beer does to a good philosophy discussion, especially if you get the fans of Kirkregaard to discuss their true feelings about Thomists.

//edit Ya we had philosophy club in a bistro/bar. too bad they wouldn't put our tab on the philosophy club tab.

[Nybarius]

I should probably join the NYU philosophy club -- I'm sure they have t3h good drugz. I'm also a big philosophy fan but have no real vent for it in my course of studies :/

[opium4themasses]

Meh, sad to say, but this thread has been one of the better ones of late. I think it's time to break out my dusty but useful Vegetarianism > j00 argument. I think we debated earlier and I may have laid a column or two. I dunno though, it's not as universal as I'd like it to be, but then we can't always get what we want.

[Sabaku no Ira]

About subjective...
When I said subjective view, I mean a view that is clear, unbiased, completely free of the taint of emotions and feelings.

Oh, I understand it as part of a process. What I don't understand is how he reconciles christianity and nihilism.
If you haven't noticed from my posts, I seem to have a double mind. Sometimes I want to destroy everything that I can see and feel, sometimes I don't. I flip from the two from time to time, not just in forums but in daily life: one moment I'll want to strangle this random person standing next to me because I want to kill, then next I'll but lending (giving) my money to a friend of mine who needs a couple of cents for photocopying or smiling to a cute kid passing by. Don't ask me why, though I have a suspicion that it's a duel personality or something... (I'm currently on the kind mode, btw)

Meh, sad to say, but this thread has been one of the better ones of late. I think it's time to break out my dusty but useful Vegetarianism > j00 argument. I think we debated earlier and I may have laid a column or two. I dunno though, it's not as universal as I'd like it to be, but then we can't always get what we want.

And an argument you got from me.

And no, Nybarius, I'm not going to give up Christianity anytime soon (at least not in the normal mode anyway). But I've got to admit that I don't play by a lot of "rules" that normal Christians play.

[opium4themasses]

Actually, I was complaining about the sad state of affairs. No one seems to be bringing interesting arguments. It's all angst of late.

When I said subjective view, I mean a view that is clear, unbiased, completely free of the taint of emotions and feelings.
The word you want is objective, not subjective. So you were in fact using the wrong word. At least your posts make a little more sense now.

[Lord Itachi]

the only way to go is up or down

[Sabaku no Ira]

The word you want is objective, not subjective. So you were in fact using the wrong word. At least your posts make a little more sense now.

Well, at least that clears things up a bit.

[Lord Itachi]

no, God gave you a purpose in life

[abstract]

No.


Reason and logic are simply tools of the trade.

Humanity is something much bigger than any one person.

[Tokoyami]

I'd say yes.

Humanity: A rather odd word used by baseline humans to define who they are. An odd attempt at defining there own sense of self at a personal level and there collective identity at a higher level. Recognizing there own sophoncy and trying to pin down what makes them them. Thats what I'd define it as.


Now given the chance to stay as I am or upload myself to a computronium substrate or an OA moonbrain and ascend to a higher singularity I'd take the latter choice in a heartbeat. Hell I'd even take genetic modifications that made me into a human derived subspecies so long as it had advantages I didn't have before.

And if somone had a problem with that well......thats there problem.



no, God gave you a purpose in lifeOh really?

If your gonna arguing with people on what they should or should not do please come up with a better argument than this. First off I find the entire premise of god to be no more than myth pretty damn well nullifying your entire argument right there. I'd go further but I refuse to derail this thread with arguments that have been beaten beyond death countless millions of times previously.

[GrimaH]

No.


Reason and logic are simply tools of the trade.

Humanity is something much bigger than any one person.

You just had to try and ruin a perfectly good classic thread did you :zaru

[impersonal]

The big dollar question: how important is humanity? WHY is it important? Why shouldn't we let go of our primitive instincts completely (when we have a choice) and let reason and logic take over? I'm perfectly neutral in this matter.

The reason you're perfectly neutral in this matter is that this matter makes no sense.

[Pilaf]

The big dollar question: how important is humanity? WHY is it important? Why shouldn't we let go of our primitive instincts completely (when we have a choice) and let reason and logic take over? I'm perfectly neutral in this matter.

Discuss.

In my opinion, Humanity IS Reason and Logic. Without those things, and spoken language to communicate our ideals and feelings to one another, we truly would be just like all the other animals.