Soi Fong vs. Kuchiki Byakuya (Shikai-only battle) SPOILERS

[Bass]

The captain of the 2nd division vs. the captain of the 6th division.


Who will win in this battle where they can only use Shikai?


I say Soi Fong.

[EdwardElric]

Well, Soi Fong's speed suprised even Yoruichi, and Yoruichi was fast enough to escape Byakuya holding Ichigo over his shoulder, so in terms of speed, I think she would be fast enough to see senbonzakura's attacks and probably bypass them to hit Byakuya twice.

[DevilB0i]

Soi fong would own Byakuya

[DevilB0i]

Soi fong would own Byakuya

[Code]

Well shikai only. I'd say Soi Fong takes this. Her speed is far greater than Byakuya's even not taking into account her Shunkou(though not nearly as good as Yoruichi's her speed and strength should still improve quite a bit so might as well consider it a Bankai though it was said every captain aside from Kenpachi has one so she should have another one). She can always do the summoning move, then try to overwhelm Byakuya's with that and her speed and she should be able to land two hits.

[SASUNARU<3]

Soi Fong, if she touches him twice hes dead. And shes probably the only captain in the G13 that surpass Byakuya in speed.

[Tsukiyomi]

I say this all the time, but I seriously doubt two hits actually causes death itself, its probably just a move that is powerful enough that most normal people can't survive. If it was actually just two touches and you're dead then even as an unseated Shinigami she would be captain level, this obviously can't be.

Do you really think two hits would kill someone like Yamamoto? If so then she should be leading the Gotei 13.

My money is on Byakuya, with his Ban Kai I doubt anyone other than Ichigo in his Ban Kai form could outrun it, even in his Ban Kai form Byakuya was able to somewhat keep up with him.

The fact that he is able to simultaneously attack and defend is an amazing advantage.

[Bass]

Umm...Tsukiyomi? It's a shikai only. :sweatdrop


But I agree, though.

[Tsukiyomi]

Meh, even so, Byakuya's Shikai is extremely fast, had Yoruichi not wrapped a cloth around it I doubt she could have evaded that, she was barely able to evade him and his flash step (granted she was holding Ichigo).

[Near]

I doubt the cloth was actually holding back his shikai.

[Bass]

I doubt the cloth was actually holding back his shikai.



Actually, it did. The cloth prevented Senbonzakura from seperating, which is odd because one would think that it would just cut through the cloth. :oh

[Tsukiyomi]

Actually, it did. The cloth prevented Senbonzakura from seperating, which is odd because one would think that it would just cut through the cloth. :oh

Had he felt he was in danger he probably could have cut through it. Remember what Yoruichi said, she said no one who was there at the bridge had the potential to beat Byakuya except for Ichigo, that includes herself in that statement (in fact that was the whole point).

[Bass]

Had he felt he was in danger he probably could have cut through it. Remember what Yoruichi said, she said no one who was there at the bridge had the potential to beat Byakuya except for Ichigo, that includes herself in that statement (in fact that was the whole point).



Wasn't Ukitate there also? So, Byakuya > Ukitate? :huh

[Tsukiyomi]

Wasn't Ukitate there also? So, Byakuya > Ukitate? :huh

Personally I would say yes because she knew Ukitake and I think Byakuya is second only to Aizen and maybe Yamamoto, but others may disagree.

[Caustic]

Wasn't Ukitate there also? So, Byakuya > Ukitate? :huh

I'd prefer to think that in saying that, she was speaking of the "Ryoka" (i.e. Ishida, Orihime, Ganju, etc.).

Anyway, if it's Shi Kai only, it'd take a while, but eventually Soi Fong would probably take it. From the few times that Byakuya's Shi Kai has been used, it seems like it doesn't have nearly the speed or power of his Ban Kai. Byakuya is probably second in speed only to Soi Fong (and maybe Yamamoto), so it's safe to assume that Soi Fong will eventually take him down.

I say this all the time, but I seriously doubt two hits actually causes death itself, its probably just a move that is powerful enough that most normal people can't survive. If it was actually just two touches and you're dead then even as an unseated Shinigami she would be captain level, this obviously can't be.

Do you really think two hits would kill someone like Yamamoto? If so then she should be leading the Gotei 13.

During her fight with Yoruichi, Soi Fong said that it had taken her years of training or whatnot, but she finally mastered the ability of her Shi Kai. I think that's a pretty good clue that it really will kill now, as opposed to just knocking them unconcious or something.

Later on, there'll probably end up being some gimmick in which anyone with much more spirit power than her will only be knocked unconcious, not die, and she'll conveniently have the lowest spirit power of all the captains. So you're probably right, either way :amuse

[Tsukiyomi]

I'd prefer to think that in saying that, she was speaking of the "Ryoka" (i.e. Ishida, Orihime, Ganju, etc.).

Anyway, if it's Shi Kai only, it'd take a while, but eventually Soi Fong would probably take it. From the few times that Byakuya's Shi Kai has been used, it seems like it doesn't have nearly the speed or power of his Ban Kai. Byakuya is probably second in speed only to Soi Fong (and maybe Yamamoto), so it's safe to assume that Soi Fong will eventually take him down.

You may like to think that, you may be right and thats fine, but her statement was pretty broad, and given the fact she talked about Ukitake's presence afterwards (and how he wouldn't kill Rukia), I'm pretty sure she was including him.

Byakuya's Shikai hasn't really shown anything to indicate it is slow at all, when has anyone been able to dodge it?

During her fight with Yoruichi, Soi Fong said that it had taken her years of training or whatnot, but she finally mastered the ability of her Shi Kai. I think that's a pretty good clue that it really will kill now, as opposed to just knocking them unconcious or something.

Later on, there'll probably end up being some gimmick in which anyone with much more spirit power than her will only be knocked unconcious, not die, and she'll conveniently have the lowest spirit power of all the captains. So you're probably right, either way :amuse

Yeah, the ability might be a move that can kill any normal person, she says "the target will surely die", how many times have we heard that about a move in a manga only to find out it isn't absolute?

Here is the way I see it, Yoruichi beat Soi Fong, she proved herself superior, yet admitted she herself couldn't beat Byakuya, so Byakuya > Soi Fong.

[EdwardElric]

Byakuya calls Ukitake "senpai". Sure, there's plenty of cases where the student surpasses the teacher, but I don't think this is one of them. We really haven't seen much of Byakuya's shikai actually, but let's review the cases where he used it:
1. Against Ganju. Ganju's not that great so he got owned.
2. Against Renji. Renji was managing to dodge Byakuya's shikai attacks in his bankai form.
3. Against Ichigo. Ichigo's Getsu Gatenshou attack destroyed it.

Soi Fong's shikai's ability may be considered demon art class since it leaves a "seal of death" on the target. This just isn't the same as someone bragging that their attack is "certain death", since it's the ability of the shikai itself. MAYBE later on we'll find out that this is not true against some uber strong opponent, but against a captain class person with about the same power, I think it would work.

[Tsukiyomi]

Byakuya calls Ukitake "senpai". Sure, there's plenty of cases where the student surpasses the teacher, but I don't think this is one of them. We really haven't seen much of Byakuya's shikai actually, but let's review the cases where he used it:

It could just be habit, Byakuya could very well have surpassed Ukitake but still call him that out of shear habit. Just out of curiousity when did he call Ukitake Senpai?

Anyway, we haven't really seen much from Ukitake in terms of power.

1. Against Ganju. Ganju's not that great so he got owned.

Agreed.

2. Against Renji. Renji was managing to dodge Byakuya's shikai attacks in his bankai form.

Renji needed to use his Ban Kai to block the attack, he couldn't dodge it.

3. Against Ichigo. Ichigo's Getsu Gatenshou attack destroyed it.

It didn't destroy it obviously since Byakuya still had a soul, it simply covered enough of a wide range to push it back, once again, this is not dodging.

Soi Fong's shikai's ability may be considered demon art class since it leaves a "seal of death" on the target. This just isn't the same as someone bragging that their attack is "certain death", since it's the ability of the shikai itself. MAYBE later on we'll find out that this is not true against some uber strong opponent, but against a captain class person with about the same power, I think it would work.

We don't know how Soi Fong's reiatsu compares to Byakuya, we have no reason to believe her's is exceptionally strong, we know Byakuya's is, and in his Ban Kai form he was strong enough that his presence was tearing the already injured Renji apart even more.

As for her ability, I still say if it really caused actual death she would be stronger than Yamamoto.

[EdwardElric]

Yeah, it's true that we haven't really seen much from Ukitake in terms of power, but hopefully all will eventually be revealed.

Here's a pic of Byakuya calling Ukitake senpai:
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9479/mangarainbleachch134031wx.png

Here, Renji says he scattered the parts to dodge the attack:
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/3369/mangarainbleachch141171yr.png

Yamamoto's Soul Cutter incinerates anything it touches, in a way thats like a 1 hit kill. He's also exceptionally fast, probably even faster than Yoruichi's Shunkou mode.

Also, like you said, she hasn't shown exceptionally high reiatsu, while Byakuya has, but what I meant by power is fighting skill. Even if Soi Fong's own reiatsu isn't that high, she seems like the type that would just shrug it off.

Of course, there's no doubt in my mind that his bankai would take this fight.
I guess it all just boils down to how fast his shikai is compared to his bankai.

[JoshDB]

I'm thinking Byakuya would win, due to that he, with his skill, could probably anticipate Soi Fong's movements and trap her.

[Ah B]

I'm going with Byakuya for this. Byakuya has been a captain longer than Soi Fong I believe. He probably has more combat experience.

[Code]

I'm going with Byakuya for this. Byakuya has been a captain longer than Soi Fong I believe. He probably has more combat experience.
Yoruichi left Soul Society hundres of years ago, Soi Fong was in the Ex-Militia(or Keigun Brigade of whichever one) then and was pretty high up then. You'd assume she'd take leadership soon afterwards then Captain. That was hundreds of years ago.

Byakuya has been a captain for about 50 years.

So I'm sure Soi Fong has more combat experience, and just because she has more combat-related jobs. And instead of growing up in a noble family, grew up in a family who has a warrior's tradition.

[Tsukiyomi]

Yoruichi left Soul Society hundres of years ago, Soi Fong was in the Ex-Militia(or Keigun Brigade of whichever one) then and was pretty high up then. You'd assume she'd take leadership soon afterwards then Captain. That was hundreds of years ago.

We don't know when she became a captain, it could have been a week before Ichigo showed up for all we knew, but lets assume for the sake of arguement its been like 500 years, she still wasn't able to surpass her predecessor. Yoruichi still beat her, and this was after Yoruichi admitted she couldn't beat Byakuya herself.

How is it Yoruichi can beat Soi Fong, but not Byakuya, and somehow Soi Fong can beat Byakuya?

Byakuya has been a captain for about 50 years.

Yes, and in that short amount of time he became the most famous of all the captains in Soul Society.

So I'm sure Soi Fong has more combat experience, and just because she has more combat-related jobs. And instead of growing up in a noble family, grew up in a family who has a warrior's tradition.

Yup, a family with a warrior tradition, a family of which she is the only surviving member. Most of her brothers died on their first mission, the longest survivor other than her made it to his third mission.

Byakuya on the other hand is from the greatest Noble family, not just that but he is the greatest master the Kuchiki family has EVER had.

[Code]

We don't know when she became a captain, it could have been a week before Ichigo showed up for all we knew, but lets assume for the sake of arguement its been like 500 years, she still wasn't able to surpass her predecessor. Yoruichi still beat her, and this was after Yoruichi admitted she couldn't beat Byakuya herself.

How is it Yoruichi can beat Soi Fong, but not Byakuya, and somehow Soi Fong can beat Byakuya?

Well this battle is Byakuya with a shikai and Soi Fong with hers... we haven't seen her bankai yet. Well possibly that if Yoruichi were to go all out she might beat Byakuya. She never planned on using Shunkou against Soi Fong and I doubt she would plan on using it anyone else unless the situation calls for it. So using the "No one there could beat him." May not factor that in. Then there's the fact that the last chapter labelled Yoruichi and Urahara as Soul Society's strongest.


Yes, and in that short amount of time he became the most famous of all the captains in Soul Society.

It was said taht he was the most famous for being a noble family (I think). But the 50 years thing is not an assumption. It was stated in a recent chapter before they left Soul Society that Rukia's sister died 50 years prior and Byakuya decided to adopt Rukia(if captains wear their robes 24/7 he didn't have it then.) Then it was stated about 40 chapters ago, when Rukia was having her "Gin is creepy" flashback, said that Byakuya became a captain shortly before she entered the Gotei 13, which is around when she was adopted. So within 50 years before current timeline Byakuya became captain.


Yup, a family with a warrior tradition, a family of which she is the only surviving member. Most of her brothers died on their first mission, the longest survivor other than her made it to his third mission.

Irrelevant.


Byakuya on the other hand is from the greatest Noble family, not just that but he is the greatest master the Kuchiki family has EVER had.
Nobles that sit on thier ass all day.... Byakuya was probably an exception.

[Tsukiyomi]

Well this battle is Byakuya with a shikai and Soi Fong with hers... we haven't seen her bankai yet. Well possibly that if Yoruichi were to go all out she might beat Byakuya. She never planned on using Shunkou against Soi Fong and I doubt she would plan on using it anyone else unless the situation calls for it. So using the "No one there could beat him." May not factor that in. Then there's the fact that the last chapter labelled Yoruichi and Urahara as Soul Society's strongest.

Yoruichi said no one there had the potential to beat Byakuya except Ichigo, this means she doesn't think she could beat him ever, she didn't think she had it in her to ever surpass him to the point where she could beat him.

As for Shikai, I still say we haven't seen anything to indicate Byakuya's Shikai isn't fast enough to hit Soi Fong, its so fast its totally invisible. If she tried to get close enough to mark him she would be dead, especially if she was stupid enough to stay close to him and explain the mark like she did with Yoruichi.

It was said taht he was the most famous for being a noble family (I think). But the 50 years thing is not an assumption. It was stated in a recent chapter before they left Soul Society that Rukia's sister died 50 years prior and Byakuya decided to adopt Rukia(if captains wear their robes 24/7 he didn't have it then.) Then it was stated about 40 chapters ago, when Rukia was having her "Gin is creepy" flashback, said that Byakuya became a captain shortly before she entered the Gotei 13, which is around when she was adopted. So within 50 years before current timeline Byakuya became captain.

Uh no, it was never said why he was the most famous, but it was stated he was the Kuchiki clans greatest master of all time, considering this is a world of people who can live and train for thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of years, the fact that he reached this level in 50 years is amazing.

And we don't know captains wear their robes 24/7, its entirely possible they don't wear it when they're not on duty, we can't know that. I seriously doubt they never take it off unless they have a few dozen of those things lying around.

Since we can't verify wether or not they wear them all the time you can't really use that as proof to determine how long he has been a captain.

Irrelevant.

Uh, no. YOU were the one who brought up her family, you brought it up because you seem to think coming from a warrior family somehow makes you stronger, well her warrior family apparently sucked ass so I don't she how it would matter.

Nobles that sit on thier ass all day.... Byakuya was probably an exception.

How do you know that? Explain that to me, show me where it explains that all nobles, that every noble in Kuchiki's history sat on their ass all day except for Byakuya.

Look at families like Hyuuga and Uchiha, they are considered Noble clans, but they most certainly don't sit on their asses all day. They're extremely powerful and deserving of their title of nobility.

Bleach is no different, why even bother mentioning the noble families and how Kuchiki is the strongest if the nobles are weak?

[Code]

Yoruichi said no one there had the potential to beat Byakuya except Ichigo, this means she doesn't think she could beat him ever, she didn't think she had it in her to ever surpass him to the point where she could beat him.

Well she simply said no one on that bridge could beat him. She may not have factored herself in that equation. Well who knows, taking everything into account, Kenpachi is the strongest captain, even stronger than Yamamoto (and Byakuya) and so on.


As for Shikai, I still say we haven't seen anything to indicate Byakuya's Shikai isn't fast enough to hit Soi Fong, its so fast its totally invisible. If she tried to get close enough to mark him she would be dead, especially if she was stupid enough to stay close to him and explain the mark like she did with Yoruichi.
Well the fact that Yoruichi was able to stop it after he was saying the words to activate it (or right before.) Soi Fong's speed is at least Yoruichi's speed. If Ichigo has enough time to attack along with Renji, then so should she.


And we don't know captains wear their robes 24/7, its entirely possible they don't wear it when they're not on duty, we can't know that. I seriously doubt they never take it off unless they have a few dozen of those things lying around.

Since we can't verify wether or not they wear them all the time you can't really use that as proof to determine how long he has been a captain.

Huh? Did you skip over the post and not read it? Byakuya became Captain shortly before Rukia joined the Gotei 13. Rukia joined the Gotei 13 shortly after she was adopted. She was adopted sometime between the current timeline and 50 years ago.



Uh, no. YOU were the one who brought up her family, you brought it up because you seem to think coming from a warrior family somehow makes you stronger, well her warrior family apparently sucked ass so I don't she how it would matter.

What was irrelavent was them dying. Coming from a warrior family would mean she was exposed to more fighting since it was a question of experience. Sucked ass? Who knows how difficult it was to be in the Ex-Militia(or whatever it was).



How do you know that? Explain that to me, show me where it explains that all nobles, that every noble in Kuchiki's history sat on their ass all day except for Byakuya.

Well I don't see Kuukaku doing much until later. Ganjyu is riding hogs. We don't know anything about Yoruichi's relatives, she may be the only fighter in her clan. We only know of Byakuya from the Kuchiki family that's a shinigami. Then we have heard nothing of the 4th noble family.


Bleach is no different, why even bother mentioning the noble families and how Kuchiki is the strongest if the nobles are weak?
I don't recall them saying Kuchiki is the strongest.

[Tsukiyomi]

Well she simply said no one on that bridge could beat him. She may not have factored herself in that equation. Well who knows, taking everything into account, Kenpachi is the strongest captain, even stronger than Yamamoto (and Byakuya) and so on.

The whole point of her statement was to show that even she couldn't have beaten him. Ichigo wanted her to save the others, she was telling him that it wasn't in her power to take down Byakuya to save them. What the hell would be the point of mentioning Rukia, Ganju and Hanatarou? No shit they couldn't take down a captain.

Well the fact that Yoruichi was able to stop it after he was saying the words to activate it (or right before.) Soi Fong's speed is at least Yoruichi's speed. If Ichigo has enough time to attack along with Renji, then so should she.

Byakuya wasn't expecting her to show up, in this instance it wouldn't be by surprise. Also Yoruichi stopped it in its sealed form, it would be impossible to stop it like that in its Shikai form.

Ichigo was only able to stop it by covering the entire battlefield with a massive attack, Renji needed a Ban Kai to do it.

Huh? Did you skip over the post and not read it? Byakuya became Captain shortly before Rukia joined the Gotei 13. Rukia joined the Gotei 13 shortly after she was adopted. She was adopted sometime between the current timeline and 50 years ago.

When did it say that? I just reread the chapter where Byakuya explains about Rukia's sister, nowhere did it say anything about when he joined the Gotei 13, there is no proof of any specific time of him joining.

What was irrelavent was them dying. Coming from a warrior family would mean she was exposed to more fighting since it was a question of experience. Sucked ass? Who knows how difficult it was to be in the Ex-Militia(or whatever it was).

Experience? How do we know she was exposed to anything? It could be like in the case of Hinata, no real outside battle experience, just training within the home. We know nothing of her life so lets not assume things one way or the other.

We also know nothing of the lives of nobles, so don't assume Byakuya is the only one to ever get up off his ass.

Well I don't see Kuukaku doing much until later. Ganjyu is riding hogs. We don't know anything about Yoruichi's relatives, she may be the only fighter in her clan. We only know of Byakuya from the Kuchiki family that's a shinigami. Then we have heard nothing of the 4th noble family.

You're right, we know nothing of Yoruichi's relatives (is she a noble?), so DON'T ASSUME. You're assuming the entire family we haven't seen is weak, what an assumption. Going by what we've seen 100% of her family are warriors (since we've only seen her:laugh ), 100% of the Kuchiki Family we've seen are Shinigami (since we've only seen Byakuya).

Don't assume they're weak just because it supports your argument. I'm going by what we've heard, in most stories like this nobles are quite power, and why even bother mentioning the power of the Kuchiki clan if they were weak?

I don't recall them saying Kuchiki is the strongest.

Ganju said Kuchiki was the head of the 4 noble families, that puts it at the top, and he is the strongest Kuchiki of all time. Why would Kubo Tite mention that before a display of Byakuya's powers if not to show he was a person of unreal power?

[maddmaster]

Soi Fong's shikai's ability may be considered demon art class since it leaves a "seal of death" on the target. This just isn't the same as someone bragging that their attack is "certain death", since it's the ability of the shikai itself. MAYBE later on we'll find out that this is not true against some uber strong opponent, but against a captain class person with about the same power, I think it would work.


If this is like the abilities in HxH then i supposed that it is sure death. It's a condition based ability where the condition is that the user must be able to hit the opponent twice in the same spot. Truly this is a very hard condition if we take into consideration that "the same spot" means exactly where the first attack hits.

Back to the topic i would say Soi would beat Byakuya by virtue that her division specialized in assasination and other covert operations. This means that her speed and technique are exceptional. Add to this the perfect ability of "sure kill" i would say Byakuya will fall with this match.

[Code]

The whole point of her statement was to show that even she couldn't have beaten him. Ichigo wanted her to save the others, she was telling him that it wasn't in her power to take down Byakuya to save them. What the hell would be the point of mentioning Rukia, Ganju and Hanatarou? No shit they couldn't take down a captain.

While I was all wrong fully thinking the point of her statement was for Ichigo not to be so pissed off and to want to train more....


Byakuya wasn't expecting her to show up, in this instance it wouldn't be by surprise. Also Yoruichi stopped it in its sealed form, it would be impossible to stop it like that in its Shikai form.

If he does get the shikai out in the first place.




When did it say that? I just reread the chapter where Byakuya explains about Rukia's sister, nowhere did it say anything about when he joined the Gotei 13, there is no proof of any specific time of him joining.

You alway seem to skip over my posts... it was around chapter 150 or something, when Gin goes to taunt Rukia as it was about Gin, and Gin became a captain the same time as Byakuya which was said to be shortly before she joined the Gotei 13.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7310/mangarainbleachch145053ya.png




Experience? How do we know she was exposed to anything? It could be like in the case of Hinata, no real outside battle experience, just training within the home. We know nothing of her life so lets not assume things one way or the other.
[/QUOTE]
Better than you assuming things about Byakuya. And I think it was obvious seeing as how it was stated what her family tradition was that she would be more exposed to battle and things. It's common sense, but the only sense you have is the overrating of Byakuya it seems.



You're right, we know nothing of Yoruichi's relatives (is she a noble?), so DON'T ASSUME. You're assuming the entire family we haven't seen is weak, what an assumption. Going by what we've seen 100% of her family are warriors (since we've only seen her:laugh ), 100% of the Kuchiki Family we've seen are Shinigami (since we've only seen Byakuya).

Yet you assume things to make Byakuya seem stronger. I used examles showing the lives of the noble families than you assume otherwise to makeByakuya's accomplishment of being the strongest in the Kuchiki seem greater.



Ganju said Kuchiki was the head of the 4 noble families, that puts it at the top, and he is the strongest Kuchiki of all time. Why would Kubo Tite mention that before a display of Byakuya's powers if not to show he was a person of unreal power?
Or simply to show that he was the strongest of the Kuchiki. Being the head of the 4 noble families doesn't mean they're stronger. "Don't assume things."

It's really pointless to argue with you about Byakuya it seems...

[EdwardElric]

Since I don't have the manga chapters before the Ishida vs. Mayuri fight, I had to go search through the anime. Anyways, it seems that Yoruichi said (in the Lunar version) "Don't be so full of yourself. Not one person there could have survived against Byakuya." Interpret that however you want.

[Code]

It was also said that Kenpachi was the strongest. Yet Tsukiyomi claims otherwise. Yet takes that statement as specifically inteded to say Yoruichi (despite it saying in the latest chapter "Strongest of Soul Society") can't defeat Byakuya.

[Tsukiyomi]

While I was all wrong fully thinking the point of her statement was for Ichigo not to be so pissed off and to want to train more....

Believe what you want, but saying that no one present could have defeated Byakuya seems pretty straightforward to me, she believed even she couldn't beat him. You're just looking for a second meaning to suit your needs.

If he does get the shikai out in the first place.

Once again, Yoruichi caught him by surprise and was prepared to face Byakuya, she knew he would be there. We don't know if Soi Fong would even be capable of the same move.

You alway seem to skip over my posts... it was around chapter 150 or something, when Gin goes to taunt Rukia as it was about Gin, and Gin became a captain the same time as Byakuya which was said to be shortly before she joined the Gotei 13.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7310/mangarainbleachch145053ya.png

Fine, that just suits my point all the more. In 50 years he surpassed every other captain in fame and is the strongest noble of all time.

Better than you assuming things about Byakuya. And I think it was obvious seeing as how it was stated what her family tradition was that she would be more exposed to battle and things. It's common sense, but the only sense you have is the overrating of Byakuya it seems.

There, you just admitted that you too are assuming things, yet somehow I'm the stubborn one because what I assume on the evidence I see goes against you.

The only sense I have is overatting Byakuya? Please. I'm going by his reputation and the reputation of his family, his family is the greatest of the 4 noble families and he is its greatest master, we know nothing about Soi Fongs family. It could have easily been a family where she was the only one worth anything.

Yet you assume things to make Byakuya seem stronger. I used examles showing the lives of the noble families than you assume otherwise to makeByakuya's accomplishment of being the strongest in the Kuchiki seem greater.

Once again, you're assuming just as much, only in the opposite direction. You used examples of nobles in non-combat situations, the only noble we've seen in a real combat situation is Byakuya, and in all but one case (Ichigo) he tore his opponent apart.

Until we learn more about the noble families don't assume they're weak because it suits your needs. It would be stupid for him to be so famous just for being a noble, its his power that makes him so well known.

Or simply to show that he was the strongest of the Kuchiki. Being the head of the 4 noble families doesn't mean they're stronger. "Don't assume things."

I'll admit its not concrete proof they're stronger, but come on, why would Kubo Tite bother mentioning that right before mentioning Byakuya was its strongest master and before a display of Byakuya's power? It was to show Kuchiki was powerful, and Bykuya still managed to be the best.

It's really pointless to argue with you about Byakuya it seems...

Its equally pointless arguing with you, you've never bent on a single debate. I've bent on things in the debate corner, and here I atleast admit when my opponent has a valid point. I've yet to see you do that.

It was also said that Kenpachi was the strongest. Yet Tsukiyomi claims otherwise. Yet takes that statement as specifically inteded to say Yoruichi (despite it saying in the latest chapter "Strongest of Soul Society") can't defeat Byakuya.

So would you say Kenpachi is stronger than Yamamoto?

[Code]

Once again, Yoruichi caught him by surprise and was prepared to face Byakuya, she knew he would be there. We don't know if Soi Fong would even be capable of the same move.

Well Soi Fong seemed more than capable of handling Yoruichi (without Shunkou).


Fine, that just suits my point all the more. In 50 years he surpassed every other captain in fame and is the strongest noble of all time.

Strongest in the Kuchiki family. We don't know the strength of all the other families. We don't know how long the other captains have been captains.


There, you just admitted that you too are assuming things, yet somehow I'm the stubborn one because what I assume on the evidence I see goes against you.
I can say the same thing to you.


Once again, you're assuming just as much, only in the opposite direction. You used examples of nobles in non-combat situations, the only noble we've seen in a real combat situation is Byakuya, and in all but one case (Ichigo) he tore his opponent apart.

We've seen Kaien in a combat situation. Got killed... we've seen Kuukaku and all she did was take out one of the gaurdians which Ichigo when he arrived at Soul Society defeated one of them.


Until we learn more about the noble families don't assume they're weak because it suits your needs. It would be stupid for him to be so famous just for being a noble, its his power that makes him so well known.

Don't assume they're strongest. Ganjyu is of a noble family and I don't see him being captain-level.


Its equally pointless arguing with you, you've never bent on a single debate. I've bent on things in the debate corner, and here I atleast admit when my opponent has a valid point. I've yet to see you do that.

If the opponnent has a valid point then they have a valid point. Simple as that. If I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong.



So would you say Kenpachi is stronger than Yamamoto?
As likely as Yoruichi not being able to take Byakuya.

[yelin]

ok this is going around is circles, let me end it

CODE AND TSUKIYOMI stfu hoimes

Byakuya > Soifong and lets leave it at that. lol

[BloodyAngel]

Definetally Soi Fong, because Byakuya isn't a straight forward guy or could handle them once there in his face.

[Pipboy]

Given that this is restricted to Shikai Soi Fong has this one in the bag. The reason why this is Shikai is that we don't know what Soi Fong's ban Kai is, though we know she has one.

Byakuya's Inital release is unimpressive in power and untilty compared to his ban release. It can't shield and its attack speed is not quick enough to prevent a person with supirior speed or destructive power from avoiding/stopping it. Given that Soi Fong has both speed better than Byakuya certainly, greater than or on par with yoruitchi, and the incomplete Shunko, its safe to assume that she has his shi kai beat.

Her own Shikai is plain unfair when combined with speed that is already better than Byakuya. I can't imagine hi dodging better than yoruitchi and she was on the losing end of that battle.

Bankai is a different story, but we can't go there.

[~Tenten~]

i dont know if this has been said yet but here it goes..

i think yoruichi and soifong are around the same in speed. yoruichi probably a little faster. yoruichi is definately faster than byakuya which probably makes soifong faster than byakuya. there is no way he would be able to dodge the 2 hits from her shikai. so i say soifong.