Pope urges Czech Republic to rediscover faith

[Diceman]

Pope Benedict XVI arrived in the Czech Republic on Saturday, hoping to spark a faith revival in what may be the most non-religious country in all of Europe.

Pope Benedict XVI waves to faithful as he arrives at the Church of Our Lady Victorious in Prague on Saturday. (Bela Szandelszky/Associated Press)
A welcoming ceremony was held as the Pope, 82, walked off the plane at Prague's Ruzyne International Airport to begin a three-day visit.

His visit comes shortly before the 20th anniversary of the country's Velvet Revolution, which saw the overthrow of Czechoslovakia's communist government.

Up until 1989, the church was labelled as the people's enemy. But, despite the fall of communism, there hasn't been much of a religious renewal.

About half of the respondents in a recent national survey said they don't believe in God.

On his arrival, Pope Benedict urged the predominantly secular country to rediscover its Christian roots.

He also hailed the collapse of the Berlin Wall two decades ago this autumn as "a watershed in world history," while criticizing the communist era's religious persecution.

"I join you and your neighbours in giving thanks for your liberation from these oppressive regimes," the Pope said.

"Nevertheless, the cost of 40 years of political repression is not to be underestimated," he said. "A particular tragedy for this land was the ruthless attempt by the government of that time to silence the voice of the church.

"Now that religious freedom has been restored, I call upon all the citizens of this republic to rediscover the Christian traditions which have shaped their culture," he added.

The Czech Republic is one of the few countries in the world that has not ratified a treaty establishing relations with the Holy See.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/26/pope-czech-republic.html?ref=rss

[Mider T]

Czech Republic is one of the most secular countries in the world?

[Special Force]

I can't blame the Pope. It's one his roles as a Church leader to promote Christianity, especially in a place where there seems to be a little number of population who believes in God. Not that he's trying to convert those people forcefully, but Christian teachings could somehow help the Czech people with their values formation or something like that.

[Altron]

who cares about the pope? Newsflash you guys don't have the power over European countries as you did during the middle ages. :zaru

[Tokoyami]

Do you see this middle finger I haz extended?

It's for you popey-kins.

[Seto Kaiba]

I can't blame the Pope. It's one his roles as a Church leader to promote Christianity, especially in a place where there seems to be a little number of population who believes in God. Not that he's trying to convert those people forcefully, but Christian teachings could somehow help the Czech people with their values formation or something like that.

Perhaps, but religion isn't really a necessity when it comes to forming values.

[martryn]

Perhaps, but religion isn't really a necessity when it comes to forming values.

No, but it can help. The tenants of Christianity, in particular the teachings of Christ, are really a great moral compass.

Regardless, I'm glad the Pope has taken such a stance. It's exactly the sort of thing he needs to do, as the fucking Pope.

[Tokoyami]

They are not a great moral compass. They're anything a kid should know about morality.

You know, don't steal, don't kill, go ahead and get your father drunk and fuck him.......

[Weaboo]

They are not a great moral compass. They're anything a kid should know about morality.

You know, don't steal, don't kill, go ahead and get your father drunk and fuck him.......

But the thought of a giant dude in the sky getting ready to smite the shit out of you can certainly reinforce those morals.

[Tokoyami]

NO THEY WO-*a lightning bolt fries the furry*

[Forbidden Truth]

But the thought of a giant dude in the sky getting ready to smite the shit out of you can certainly reinforce those morals.

Right! Dunno if you haven't noticed, but it sure is working for most of the religious (not indoctrinated, the real religious) people (except for the psychos that claim God told them to _____).

[Weaboo]

Right! Dunno if you haven't noticed, but it sure is working for most of the religious (not indoctrinated, the real religious) people (except for the psychos that claim God told them to _____).

I was trying to make a joke, please don't mistake me for some who is religious.

[martryn]

They are not a great moral compass. They're anything a kid should know about morality.

You know, don't steal, don't kill, go ahead and get your father drunk and fuck him.......

If it were so obvious, then why do people steal, kill, and... well, I don't know about that last one. But it happens. A proper Christian who fully understands the teachings of Christ would be a man ruled by a strict moral code. They're not the people that get drunk and piss on your car because it's funny. Or take advantage of drunk girls. Or cheat on their husband/wife. Ect.

I was trying to make a joke, please don't mistake me for some who is religious.

Oh, God forbid because that'd be a sin.

[Cirus]

Well things could always be worse. It could be a leader of a country claiming certain things in history didn't happen or a person trying to rally other countries against another.

[Weaboo]

Oh, God forbid because that'd be a sin.

I'm not saying being religious is a bad thing either :laugh

[Special Force]

They are not a great moral compass. They're anything a kid should know about morality.

You know, don't steal, don't kill, go ahead and get your father drunk and fuck him.......

It's obvious you dont know your stuff. Christian teachings are far more than those mentioned.

[Tokoyami]

It's also obvious that I wasn't trying to list them all and was being slightly dickish.

[Verdius]

Not that he's trying to convert those people forcefully, but Christian teachings could somehow help the Czech people with their values formation or something like that.

Because their values are apparently so lacking at the moment. Did it ever occur to some people that it may just not be needed?

No, but it can help. The tenants of Christianity, in particular the teachings of Christ, are really a great moral compass.

Jesus was a pretty cool guy. Eh, gets killed and doesn't afraid of anything.

If someone just snip'd out the gist of what he said and put it in a book (along with many other wise notions from history) that'd be far better. No need for cosmic jewish zombies. Though then again, just about everything he was reported as saying was essentially already said, before the Bible came around in the first place so it might be a bit redundant.

[Tyrannos]

Perhaps, but religion isn't really a necessity when it comes to forming values.

Not true, Seto. Many ethical values are based off religious values. That's pretty much why you see religious icons like Lady Justice (based off the Greek Goddess Themis) and the 10 Commandments in Courthouses. (Well until the Atheists whined and had them taken down. :notrust)

They are not a great moral compass. They're anything a kid should know about morality.

You know, don't steal, don't kill, go ahead and get your father drunk and fuck him.......

Pfft, it's common sense now because it was drilled in people by thousands of years of religious practice. :sag

[Xyloxi]

Although I'm not to fond of the Pope, he is doing his job better than before. He's urging people to be more Christian, rather than saying that Islam is evil and homosexuality is a larger problem than global warming.

[LoboFTW]

Not true, Seto. Many ethical values are based off religious values. That's pretty much why you see religious icons like Lady Justice (based off the Greek Goddess Themis) and the 10 Commandments in Courthouses. (Well until the Atheists whined and had them taken down. :notrust)



Pfft, it's common sense now because it was drilled in people by thousands of years of religious practice. :sag

lol? Do you actually think people would be killing and stealing from each other if it hadn't been said by religions? Also there really isn't much deeper ethics in the Bible than the ten commandments, and when you look deeper you find things like stoning adulterers and killing gays.

[Verdius]

Not true, Seto. Many ethical values are based off religious values. That's pretty much why you see religious icons like Lady Justice (based off the Greek Goddess Themis) and the 10 Commandments in Courthouses. (Well until the Atheists whined and had them taken down. :notrust)

I'd love to see some other religion (Islam especially) try to put a stone tablet of their values up in a government courthouse and see how smoothly that goes over with Christians. And knock it off with trying to make atheists look like the badguys, government is supposed to be (and should be) secular in the first place giving no one any special treatment.

Besides the 10 commandments are crap. I'll let George Carlin clearly demonstrate why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8

[Megatonton]

That's good and all, Popemeister, but why not visit the Czech Republic and then promote Christianity?

Calling the shots from the Vatican seat only makes you sound more like a Star Wars antagonist. (Not that I'm implying anything. Or am I? :hehee)

[T4R0K]

OK, it's his job. Not that the Czech people need to obey. You know, the Inquisition won't hunt them anymore for not believing (though I think it has never been officially dissolved, but no longer does that same job... I'm not sure, though)

Heck, imams keep telling us how "western values" are twisted and lead to the wrong path (bikini girls, porn, freedom to think and speak your mind, etc...), you don't see me growing a beard and annoying people with religion.

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

I like how the Pope doing his job and promoting Christianity is seen as a threat and makes half the people here react like fearful children trying to feign an aura of rebellion.

This as much a news headline as Bus Driver Picks Up Passengers or Farmer Grows Some Shit.

Give the Atheistic circle jerk a rest, I'm sure your arms are all very tired.

[biar]

I'll lose faith in to the pope too if the pope is a former Hitler Youth member and appointed a Holocaust denying bishop

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

I'll lose faith in to the pope too if the pope is a former Hitler Youth member and appointed a Holocaust denying bishop

And what does that have to do with the price of dope in Tokyo?

Faith in God shouldn't be decided on the actions of Humans.

[Kitsune]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/SeekingPeace/alex.bmp

[Verdius]

Give the Atheistic circle jerk a rest, I'm sure your arms are all very tired.

Only after you give the bawwwing a rest.

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

This message is hidden because Verdius is on your ignore list (http://forums.narutofan.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

That's a comfort, I know what ever your saying it amounts to this.

http://www.225.ca/ivan/nov03/crybaby.jpg

Seriously most of you aren't trying to be intellectuals. You're looking for safe ground to lick your wounds. It's sad and pathetic and many of you mimic the behavior you find so deplorable in religion.

[MunchKing]

He's just the pope, let him do his job. It's not like he has any authority over Czechnians, he's just an 85 year old man who wants to bring attention to his religion in that part of the world.

Not the end of the world. Some here make it sound like he's an evil overlord or something.

[adee]

Good for him.

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

He's just the pope, let him do his job. It's not like he has any authority over Czechnians, he's just an 85 year old man who wants to bring attention to his religion in that part of the world.

Not the end of the world. Some here make it sound like he's an evil overlord or something.

Welcome to the Cafe, you must be new here.

[Verdius]

This message is hidden because Verdius is on your ignore list (http://forums.narutofan.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

That's a comfort, I know what ever your saying it amounts to this.

http://www.225.ca/ivan/nov03/crybaby.jpg


You were adorable as a baby. But thank you for providing us with a visual image to your current state.

[Altron]

He's just the pope, let him do his job. It's not like he has any authority over Czechnians, he's just an 85 year old man who wants to bring attention to his religion in that part of the world.

Not the end of the world. Some here make it sound like he's an evil overlord or something.
lol newbies in the Cafe

[Pilaf]

No, but it can help. The tenants of Christianity, in particular the teachings of Christ, are really a great moral compass.


Or a great obstruction between a person and the deep, free thought empathy that is true human morality, which dogma all too often drowns with its needless rules and regulations.

[Tyrannos]

lol? Do you actually think people would be killing and stealing from each other if it hadn't been said by religions? Also there really isn't much deeper ethics in the Bible than the ten commandments, and when you look deeper you find things like stoning adulterers and killing gays.

Sorry, buddy. But that's exactly how ethics came about.

And if you actually read the bible, Jesus condemned stoning and basically said, "hate the act, not the person", which goes hand-in-hand with homosexuals.

I'd love to see some other religion (Islam especially) try to put a stone tablet of their values up in a government courthouse and see how smoothly that goes over with Christians. And knock it off with trying to make atheists look like the badguys, government is supposed to be (and should be) secular in the first place giving no one any special treatment.

Besides the 10 commandments are crap. I'll let George Carlin clearly demonstrate why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8

Aren't you being the hyocrite by denouncing me for "knocking" atheists when you are very much doing it yourself?

The government supposed to be secular? If you actually looked at US History, inspite of it stating there is to be a seperation of Church and State, you actually see they incorporated Christian values in the Bill of Rights. And that the purpose of the seperation of Church and State was to prevent the possibility of future religous persecutions by a government, like what the American forefathers experienced under British rule.

As for other religions adding their "stone tablets", you realize that Islam believes in the 10 Commandments just as much as Jews and Christians, right? :sag


But you know, you brought up an interesting point. If other religions did try adding their values, I wonder if atheists would actually try to stop them or protest as much as they did with Christian values? Because it's just so funny that you all have no problem with people adding other religious holidays, but Christmas and Easter have to go, because they are "evil". :sarc

No offense, but I just find Atheists being more Anti-JudeoChristian than actual Atheists.

[Rob`]

CTK you realize accusing us of having a circle jerk is just trolling right? Just putting that out there...

Sorry, buddy. But that's exactly how ethics came about.

If you're going to be cocky at least be right. It's hardwired into us to believe killing, stealing etc is wrong.

And if you actually read the bible, Jesus condemned stoning and basically said, "hate the act, not the person", which goes hand-in-hand with homosexuals.

He was talking about the old testament and funnily enough he's right.

Aren't you being the hyocrite by denouncing me for "knocking" atheists when you are very much doing it yourself?

He is? How so?

The government supposed to be secular? If you actually looked at US History, inspite of it stating there is to be a seperation of Church and State, you actually see they incorporated Christian values in the Bill of Rights. And that the purpose of the seperation of Church and State was to prevent the possibility of future religous persecutions by a government, like what the American forefathers experienced under British rule.

Which Christian values are these and more to the point are they in any way unique to Christianity? And the best way to avoid religious persecution is to avoid religious government. I'd have thought that was obvious.

As for other religions adding their "stone tablets", you realize that Islam believes in the 10 Commandments just as much as Jews and Christians, right? :sag

He was just using Islam as an example, think about it though. Pretend the Hindus wanted their stone tablets in the courthouses...what would happen?

But you know, you brought up an interesting point. If other religions did try adding their values, I wonder if atheists would actually try to stop them or protest as much as they did with Christian values? Because it's just so funny that you all have no problem with people adding other religious holidays, but Christmas and Easter have to go, because they are "evil". :sarc

Since when were we against Christmas and Easter?

No offense, but I just find Atheists being more Anti-JudeoChristian than actual Atheists.

The reason you see Atheists being more against the JudeoChristian god is because that's the god most commonly worshipped where you live...

Oh and OT: Guy who believes non-catholics going to hell tries to convert non-catholics into catholics, good for him.

[Tyrannos]

If you're going to be cocky at least be right. It's hardwired into us to believe killing, stealing etc is wrong.

Please, you're just making that up. Because if it was so much common sense, then religion wouldn't exist.

He was talking about the old testament and funnily enough he's right.

He didn't say the "old testiment" he specifically said "the bible".

And you can blame the bible for whatever, but you conveniently ignore other religions and cultures practiced the same thing.

He is? How so?

It wouldn't be all the hatred at Christians now would it? :zaru

Which Christian values are these and more to the point are they in any way unique to Christianity? And the best way to avoid religious persecution is to avoid religious government. I'd have thought that was obvious.

There is a medium, either your too religious and alienate other religions or you totally deny the religious practice.

As for our values, all you have to do is go find quotes from the writers of the Consitution and you will see that they were very much Christian. For instance, here is a quote from George Washington:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

He was just using Islam as an example, think about it though. Pretend the Hindus wanted their stone tablets in the courthouses...what would happen?

Pretend that Hindus wanted their doctrines shown? I really don't see anyone making a fuss as long as other religions are represented.

But I honestly don't see atheists protesting such a thing. :sag

Since when were we against Christmas and Easter?

Oh please. :facepalm

For years you atheists have been protesting Christmas to where it's not longer appropriate to say "Merry Christmas" and suing the White House in displaying anything Christmas in citing the seperation of church and state. And hell this year the same was said regarding Easter.

The reason you see Atheists being more against the JudeoChristian god is because that's the god most commonly worshipped where you live...

Oh and OT: Guy who believes non-catholics going to hell tries to convert non-catholics into catholics, good for him.

Commonly practiced is the word. And frankly, I seen the same ammount of practice all over the United States and abroad. So I'm not going to take your word for it.

And I see no problem with a Catholic or whomever trying to convert someone into their religion. It's no different than you Atheists trying to tell people there is no God.

[GrimaH]

Troll on Tyrannos.

I like how the Pope doing his job and promoting Christianity is seen as a threat and makes half the people here react like fearful children trying to feign an aura of rebellion.

This as much a news headline as Bus Driver Picks Up Passengers or Farmer Grows Some Shit.

Give the Atheistic circle jerk a rest, I'm sure your arms are all very tired.

We do have to keep our image and be stereotypically snarky assholes at religions once in a while. We wouldn't want religious folk being offended at us for not acting the devils they imagine we are.

[Ruby Tuesday]

I can't blame the Pope. It's one his roles as a Church leader to promote Christianity, especially in a place where there seems to be a little number of population who believes in God. Not that he's trying to convert those people forcefully, but Christian teachings could somehow help the Czech people with their values formation or something like that.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he just want their money. And more power of course. :amuse

Right! Dunno if you haven't noticed, but it sure is working for most of the religious (not indoctrinated, the real religious) people (except for the psychos that claim God told them to _____).

Is that a "No true Scotsman" that I see thar?::ho

[Diceman]

Is that a "No true Scotsman" that I see thar?::ho
It's become so common that no one cares to call it anymore:lmao

[Verdius]

It's become so common that no one cares to call it anymore:lmao

It should be renamed to the, "No true reply" fallacy.

[The Cheat]

Why is this such a big deal?

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

Why is this such a big deal?

Because people want to complain about something? There wasn't enough real news this week?

[Altron]

Why is this such a big deal?
Because Israel haven't blown up something yet. :zaru

[Sama'el]

Is that a "No true Scotsman" that I see thar?::ho

It should be renamed to the, "No true reply" fallacy.

Eh, not really.

The No True Scotsman fallacy is a fallacy of equivocation, that is to say one of definition.

It begins with the categorical statement "No X is Y" (No Scotsman eats sugar in his porridge.)

Secunda replies with a counterexample, "X1 is Y" (But my Uncle Angus eats sugar in his porridge.)

Prima rebuts by changing the definition of X, "No Z is Y" (No true Scotsman eats sugar in his porridge.)

[Tokoyami]

Why is this such a big deal?Because the pope thinls he has actual power and should stfu.

[Cardboard Tube Knight]

Because the pope thinls he has actual power and should stfu.

So that makes it news? Or is it because this section is like 60% people who are Atheists looking for any chance to complain and moan about something religious? Even if its as simple as a religious leader doing their job.

[Seto Kaiba]

CTK, complaining about complaining.

Please, you're just making that up. Because if it was so much common sense, then religion wouldn't exist.

He's not, many of our values and ethics (at least a rough version of them) existed long before religion, it started with our primitive ancestors, especially as they become more and more social. Religion seemed more of a way for people of the past to explain certain functions of the world (or even moreso, the universe) at a time where they had little understanding of it. More than anything it seemed to be, something that in their minds at least, that explains the inner workings of the universe and as something that gives reason for our existence.

Many of the morals and ethics you associate with Christianity or religion in general had already existed, they were just implemented into the religions, and aside from the explanations and promises they provided that was part of their appeal, both then and now...

He didn't say the "old testiment" he specifically said "the bible".

And you can blame the bible for whatever, but you conveniently ignore other religions and cultures practiced the same thing.

That just rings of a victim complex to me Tyrannos. Islam, Hinduism, the obscure religion from one of the more backwards areas of the world, they seem to all get flak, especially when a barbaric practice comes to surface. Christianity is just taking center focus for now.

It wouldn't be all the hatred at Christians now would it? :zaru

Christianity has the largest number of followers in the world, it's going to get more attention, and that attention includes criticism as well. Islam isn't that far behind and guess what? It's the 2nd largest religion.

There is a medium, either your too religious and alienate other religions or you totally deny the religious practice.

Don't know what you are saying here...

As for our values, all you have to do is go find quotes from the writers of the Consitution and you will see that they were very much Christian. For instance, here is a quote from George Washington:

He was a deist Tyrannos, all the Founding Fathers were deists...

Pretend that Hindus wanted their doctrines shown? I really don't see anyone making a fuss as long as other religions are represented.

But I honestly don't see atheists protesting such a thing. :sag

Christians and atheists alike would be protesting it and living in the U.S. for as long as we have, you know that it is true. Just think about how freaked many Christians are about Islam, how do you think many are going to react to a polytheistic religion? For many the "PAGAN" or "SATANIST" alarms will go off in their heads...Atheists for the reason that the state isn't really supposed to endorse any religion...

Oh please. :facepalm

For years you atheists have been protesting Christmas to where it's not longer appropriate to say "Merry Christmas" and suing the White House in displaying anything Christmas in citing the seperation of church and state. And hell this year the same was said regarding Easter.

Tyrannos, I can't believe you basically believe in the "War on Christmas" bullshit. Christmas wasn't even a Christian holiday, and it's become more of a commercial one now. Same for Easter. Yeah, there were probably some hardcore douches doing that, but by the same token, there are those hard-lining Christians (especially of the religious right), that have made attempts to impose their beliefs, values, and what they think is the appropriate lifestyle on others. In the U.S. the latter is significantly larger than the former.

Commonly practiced is the word. And frankly, I seen the same ammount of practice all over the United States and abroad. So I'm not going to take your word for it.

The U.S. is a lot more religious than Europe, at least when it comes to Christianity.

And I see no problem with a Catholic or whomever trying to convert someone into their religion. It's no different than you Atheists trying to tell people there is no God.

I agree, just so long as there are no threats of eternal damnation.

[Tokyo Jihen]

I agree, just so long as there are no threats of eternal damnation.

Aww where's the fun in that.

[Utopia Realm]

Because the pope thinks he has actual power and should stfu.

Or maybe its b/c he's just doing his job and trying to spread the christian faith out to those he thinks needs it.:huh

[Tokoyami]

And I see no problem with a Catholic or whomever trying to convert someone into their religion. It's no different than you Atheists trying to tell people there is no God.Wrongo.

We don't force it upon people at all. We just complain.

[Forbidden Truth]

Wrongo.

We don't force it upon people at all. We just complain.

The Pope forcefully makes people convert?

I lol'd.

The Pope doesn't do this much compared to the IAA who's also in a desperate attempt to add to its numbers.

[Tokoyami]

The Pope forcefully makes people convert?

I lol'd.

The Pope doesn't do this much compared to the IAA who's also in a desperate attempt to add to its numbers.When did I say the pope did?

I meant others do.

[Forbidden Truth]

When did I say the pope did?

I meant others do.

Of course, there's always going to be the certain group in every religion that wants people to follow the same religion as them, and they sometimes resort to violence.

I want you to understand (as hard as this may be) that the majority of religious people promote their religion without violence and force, if at all.

[Tyrannos]

Pfft, never took you as an atheist, Seto. :P


He's not, many of our values and ethics (at least a rough version of them) existed long before religion, it started with our primitive ancestors, especially as they become more and more social. Religion seemed more of a way for people of the past to explain certain functions of the world (or even moreso, the universe) at a time where they had little understanding of it. More than anything it seemed to be, something that in their minds at least, that explains the inner workings of the universe and as something that gives reason for our existence.

Many of the morals and ethics you associate with Christianity or religion in general had already existed, they were just implemented into the religions, and aside from the explanations and promises they provided that was part of their appeal, both then and now...

That's an assumption, Seto. As far as recorded history, religious beliefs guided the ethics of civilizations.

And there is a theory that with the Venus statuettes found in prehistoric sites that religion might be as old as mankind itself. So it's not made up to oppress people as it was previously indicated in this thread.

That just rings of a victim complex to me Tyrannos. Islam, Hinduism, the obscure religion from one of the more backwards areas of the world, they seem to all get flak, especially when a barbaric practice comes to surface. Christianity is just taking center focus for now.

Islam and Hinduism, backwards? :huh

Last I checked, almost 1 billion people in the world are Hindus. And out of Hindusm, came Buddhism, which originated many advancements in Asian culture, which spread to Europe on the silk trail.

And Islam is definitely not backwards, because much of astronomy and other sciences originated in Islamic culture, and they were the ones to invent Algebra.

But in this thread, we see atheists pointing out how evil Christianity is because how the bible stated throwing stones. All to justify their hatred and blaming everything on religion. Well guess what? Even if religion isn't around, there still be wars. Humanity always fights against one another out of mere differences, as we see here in this thread.

You see this everyday on Narutofan (as a microcosm): Democrats vs Republicans, Liberals against Conservatives, pairing vs pairing, smart vs stupid, likes vs dislikes, .etc.

Christianity has the largest number of followers in the world, it's going to get more attention, and that attention includes criticism as well. Islam isn't that far behind and guess what? It's the 2nd largest religion.

So what?

Who cares if Christianity has over 2 billion and Islam with 1.5 billion. You going to judge a religion harsher because of it having a large population? No, you don't see people criticising Christians in South America, Central America, Africa, Australia, Europe.

No, people blame American Christians and the Pope, which is only a faction of that 2 billion.

Don't know what you are saying here...

It was about the secularism in the US during the founding. He was stating the Church and State was totally seperate and that no Christian values went into the the laws we enjoy today. While I stated it very much has those values.

He was a deist Tyrannos, all the Founding Fathers were deists...

Doesn't change the fact that they were Christian and they believed in God. And out of that belief, they founded the United States. They believed in religion so much that they supported the Churches and even Ben Franklin (the most liberal of the founding fathers) stated that religion was a good thing for society.

The only thing they didn't like about religion is how Priests became powerful and ruled from the pulpit and how religion can be easily corrupted by these individuals.

And we see that today with guys like Jeremiah Wright who supposed to preach Christain values, but was caught on tape spouting hatred. Televangelists being corrupted by greed and leading a hypocritical life.

That's what they were against.

Christians and atheists alike would be protesting it and living in the U.S. for as long as we have, you know that it is true. Just think about how freaked many Christians are about Islam, how do you think many are going to react to a polytheistic religion? For many the "PAGAN" or "SATANIST" alarms will go off in their heads...Atheists for the reason that the state isn't really supposed to endorse any religion...

I'll be honest, Seto. I would expect Christians to make a fuss, but I honestly haven't seen Atheists stand up against other religions like Islam. I just don't see them protesting that controversial Islamic school in Maryland or the mosques in New York.

However, I will admit their European counterparts have developed the balls to fight them. :amuse

Tyrannos, I can't believe you basically believe in the "War on Christmas" bullshit. Christmas wasn't even a Christian holiday, and it's become more of a commercial one now. Same for Easter. Yeah, there were probably some hardcore douches doing that, but by the same token, there are those hard-lining Christians (especially of the religious right), that have made attempts to impose their beliefs, values, and what they think is the appropriate lifestyle on others. In the U.S. the latter is significantly larger than the former.

Come on Seto, we all know how it was the atheists who protested Wal Mart and the governement change "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays". Hell, I recall how Atheist groups were suing the US Government over Obama using the Bible in his swearing in and the use of "God" in his speech.

As for Christmas becoming a commercial holiday, yes I agree with you there. It's honestly been like that since the 90s, it's all about the presents, not about the beliefs. (Then again Christmas was really once a pagan holiday and the real Christmas is supposed to be somewhere in September. :P)

All Atheists have to do is just ignore the Christian beliefs within and just give gifts. That's what they do around the world, they celebrate Christmas as a day of gift-giving and nothing to do with the Birth of Christ. So Atheists should just do the same and not ruin Christmas who do celebrate it for the beliefs.

The U.S. is a lot more religious than Europe, at least when it comes to Christianity.

I know. That's why the Pope is out on the tour, because the population in churches are dropping drastically. But the Atheist and Islamic populations are rising quickly.

I agree, just so long as there are no threats of eternal damnation.

Heh, well that I agree with. That's the wrong way to approach people with "Doom and Gloom".

It's better to have the person discover it themselves with you as the guide and not as the preacher.

Wrongo.

We don't force it upon people at all. We just complain.

We don't force it upon people, we just guide the way to salvation. :wink

[Tokoyami]

Of course, there's always going to be the certain group in every religion that wants people to follow the same religion as them, and they sometimes resort to violence.

I want you to understand (as hard as this may be) that the majority of religious people promote their religion without violence and force, if at all.I understand this.

However what do you do about these people may I ask?