Orihime's shield vs. Urahara's shield

[Insipidipity]

If Orihime's healing is almost vice captain, and she has 50% more fairies for the shield than healing, and her will to protect others is top of the line, do you think it surpasses that of a captain's? Urahara's sheild seemed broken by Ichigo's attack but I dont know if Orihime would do any better, but she seems to block almost anything with it.

[NecroManc3r]

Blood shield pwns other baby shields, Her shield is only made because of the offdrift of Ichigos power anyway, Urahara has this.

[Potentialflip]

Going on a limb and just say Urahara's shield.

[Ah B]

Urahara's shield is probably better than Orihime's shield.
Urahara's is based off of using his own blood (and will I guess?) if I remember correctly. Unless Urahara got sucked by a vampire, his shield is probably really strong. :P

Orihime's isn't weak either though. Like you stated, her will to protect others is strong already. She sucks at attacking because she doesn't have the killing intent, but she DOES have a protection intent.

Anywho, Urahara's is probably better.

[Insipidipity]

Zangetsu slashed off half of the bloodmist shield on the first or second strike didn't it?

[Colest]

First "blast" strike i believe

[Chatulio]

orihime shield has the potential to be stronger tha uraharas i think.

[Gaaravision]

The manga already did this. Orihime barely blocked a finger poke from Yammi, which made a crack in her shield which then caused it to shatter, and wasn't in good shape after doing so.

Urahara's casually blocked a full on punch from Yammi, without any visible damage at first, and it looked like it was Urahara that disolved it. And you know, the whole "did it casually" thing, vs Orihime limping around.

[cinosweiv]

I think Uruhara's shield is stronger than Orihime's.
Basic and simple reason: Captain > Vice-captain (if Orihime really in VC level)

[chauronity]

Orihime's shield, cos it activates subconsciously and doesn't require sword command (yes, it's a shikai). That's why Urahara's shield is harder to activate.

And about protection and durability, i bet they're almost equal, except Urahara's might last longer ... thought, it'd be safe to assume that Urahara hasn't showed the best he got.

[skmt999]

Orihime may have the potential to become VC level, but she isn't there yet. Urahara is limited by the 1/5 power while on Earth thing, and so anything he does is going to be less than his full strength. We simply haven't SEEN what he's capable of - but what we've seen so far is enough to make me think that it wouldn't matter. I vote for the sneaky guy over the shy girl.

[Naruto_Heart]

Zangetsu slashed off half of the bloodmist shield on the first or second strike didn't it?

The problem is...

would Orihime's shield be even adequate enough to fend off Ichigo's blast strike?

[Insipidipity]

Hmmmm...Sado seems to have the power to hurt a captain, Ishida seems to too even without the broken glove. The only difference was speed.

Seems to me that Orihime should be at least able to make up for her lack of offense with the ability to defend and heal from captains. But I guess she makes up for it with TWO vice captain level abilities rather than 1 captain level ability.

[Hatsune Miku]

Urahara's shield pwns over Orihime's shield.

[Tsukiyomi]

Orihime may have the potential to become VC level, but she isn't there yet. Urahara is limited by the 1/5 power while on Earth thing, and so anything he does is going to be less than his full strength. We simply haven't SEEN what he's capable of - but what we've seen so far is enough to make me think that it wouldn't matter. I vote for the sneaky guy over the shy girl.

Thats a voluntary limitation, captains and VCs aren't automatically limited when they go to earth, that would be stupid, what if a Menos or something showed up and they needed extra power? They can most likely remove this limitation at will.

Ok, first off even if Orihime were healing at a VC level that wouldn't mean her defensive abilities were at VC level. Since the only healing division is the Fourth division I'm assuming the statement meant a Fourth Division VC which would probably be a step down in raw power from a normal VC.

Secondly, even if it meant her defensive abilities were on par with a VC, Urahara was a captain, and Captains are FAR beyond VCs. Not only that but Urahara may just turn out to be one of the strongest of all captains.

Third, Orihimes shield is a product of those little creatures she summons which can be weakened by her will. Urahara's shield is a product of his Shikai, a captain level Shikai is indeed a powerful thing.

Anyway I think I made my point, Orihime's shield simply cannot compare to Urahara's. Do you really think her shield could hold up to an energy blast from Zangetsu (even if the bloodmist shield were severely damaged)?

[Insipidipity]

Ok, first off even if Orihime were healing at a VC level that wouldn't mean her defensive abilities were at VC level. Since the only healing division is the Fourth division I'm assuming the statement meant a Fourth Division VC which would probably be a step down in raw power from a normal VC.

Secondly, even if it meant her defensive abilities were on par with a VC, Urahara was a captain, and Captains are FAR beyond VCs. Not only that but Urahara may just turn out to be one of the strongest of all captains.

Third, Orihimes shield is a product of those little creatures she summons which can be weakened by her will. Urahara's shield is a product of his Shikai, a captain level Shikai is indeed a powerful thing.

Anyway I think I made my point, Orihime's shield simply cannot compare to Urahara's. Do you really think her shield could hold up to an energy blast from Zangetsu (even if the bloodmist shield were severely damaged)?
1. If the 4th division VC is the only healers, then being at 4th Division VC level seems to be about as impressive as being at the fighting level of 11th Division VC(although that being said IS kinda funny as an analogy)
2. True, which is why I said what I did in the last post, her versatility of 3 VC level abilities makes her as good as a captain with 1 Captain level ability
3. I think a zanpaktou and those flowers are pretty much the same in principle...both are powered by the user and determined by their will despite their seeming independence(See the Ichigo vs. Kenpachi where he needs the will to cut to do so). I'm not going to argue that a captain level shikai isn't a powerful thing though. I've already conceeded the original question of its power, now I'm just wondering if her 3 powers combined puts her on a similar capability of Sado and Ishida.
4. Thats kinda a circular question. This entire thread kinda depends on that answer in the first place....

[Gaimanotaku]

Orihime's healing isn't at vice captain level because it's necessarily better. I mean a real medic is going to be doing things like dealing with trauma, and bloodloss and is sort of limited by what the person's body is capable of doing. Orihime just zaps time backwards locally. It doesn't automatically put her reiatsu control level at a vice captain's, so without any evidence for, I'm going to say that yes, an elite Captain level barrier is probably better than hers.

[Tsukiyomi]

1. If the 4th division VC is the only healers, then being at 4th Division VC level seems to be about as impressive as being at the fighting level of 11th Division VC(although that being said IS kinda funny as an analogy)

I disagree, all we ever hear about is how the 4th division is the weakest, most people (most not all) put the 4th division captain near the bottom rung of the captains.

Now lets say for the sake of argument her healing abilities were on a CAPTAIN level (for the sake of argument mind you), what would that have to do with her shield? Nothing, healing and defensive abilities are totally different things.

Just like offensive abilities aren't the same which is why her offensive move never seems to have worked.

2. True, which is why I said what I did in the last post, her versatility of 3 VC level abilities makes her as good as a captain with 1 Captain level ability

3 VC level abilities? What three abilities would that be? Even if her healing is VC level (which I don't think it is), what other two does she have? Her shield is probably not even close to VC level otherwise she could just use that to block everything from a sub-VC level opponent.

Her offensive move hasn't even come close to working once, didn't it get seriously damaged by a very low level Shinigami (can't remember what seat he was).

3. I think a zanpaktou and those flowers are pretty much the same in principle...both are powered by the user and determined by their will despite their seeming independence(See the Ichigo vs. Kenpachi where he needs the will to cut to do so). I'm not going to argue that a captain level shikai isn't a powerful thing though. I've already conceeded the original question of its power, now I'm just wondering if her 3 powers combined puts her on a similar capability of Sado and Ishida.

I don't think they are of the same principle, thats why everyone who sees them says they've never seen that type of ability before.

We know the Zanpakutou are a reflection of that persons soul, if Orihime became a Shinigami she would get a Zankpakutou. We don't know what those things are, they're probably the first of their kind and only appeared because of Ichigo's massive power.

4. Thats kinda a circular question. This entire thread kinda depends on that answer in the first place....

What has she shown that indicates her shield can withstand that? I believe someone brought up how Yammi's finger poke broke her shield while Urahara's took it like nothing.

[Code]

Seeing as how Orihime's shield cracked when Yami put a finger to it, and Urahara's own was completely fine after Yami punched it. I'd say Urahara's shield is stronger.

[Insipidipity]

I disagree, all we ever hear about is how the 4th division is the weakest, most people (most not all) put the 4th division captain near the bottom rung of the captains.

Now lets say for the sake of argument her healing abilities were on a CAPTAIN level (for the sake of argument mind you), what would that have to do with her shield? Nothing, healing and defensive abilities are totally different things.

Just like offensive abilities aren't the same which is why her offensive move never seems to have worked.

3 VC level abilities? What three abilities would that be? Even if her healing is VC level (which I don't think it is), what other two does she have? Her shield is probably not even close to VC level otherwise she could just use that to block everything from a sub-VC level opponent.

Her offensive move hasn't even come close to working once, didn't it get seriously damaged by a very low level Shinigami (can't remember what seat he was).



I don't think they are of the same principle, thats why everyone who sees them says they've never seen that type of ability before.

We know the Zanpakutou are a reflection of that persons soul, if Orihime became a Shinigami she would get a Zankpakutou. We don't know what those things are, they're probably the first of their kind and only appeared because of Ichigo's massive power.
1. Weakest yes, because none are battle ready, they barely carry around swords, but they are a set of healers, so they must in terms of healing be equivalent to what, say the 11th squad is to fighting. Whenever someone is injured, they call on 4th squad.
2. I'm not saying it does, but I'm just saying that its hard to believe EVERY HUMAN that came with her(Ichigo/Sado/Ishida) has powers that can hurt a captain, and while her offense is weakest, that she can't make up for it with her shield and healing? It feels a little too unbalanced to be true. I'm not saying either is good enough compared to a captain, but combined they should be
3. Hasn't she blocked pretty much everything from sub VC opponents? We saw in the intro she blocked the zanpaktous from half of the VCs.

4. I do think they're pretty much the same.
a. They're both living, one has 1 name, the other has 6.
b. They have commands for coming out, for Shinigami, Shikai, for the flowers, whatever thier ability is(heal, shield, attack)
c. Her power is a reflection of her soul
d. both are said to be affected by
i. The will to cut
ii. The will not to let friends die
iii. The will not to BE cut
None of those are present in anything else(Sado's arm, Ishida's bow, Etc.)
They haven't seen that ABILITY before because they're NOT zanpaktou's. However, that doesn't mean they're not essentially the same thing in principle. They're a living manifestation of the user's soul which can be called out to do tasks with the user's own power.

[Gaimanotaku]

1. You can only use the healing analogy if Orihime's comparable healing rate meant something. It doesn't. It doesn't mean anything about her attributes. She can heal at a VC rate but it doesn't mean she has VC skills. Assessing injuries, using correct kidou, having fine knowledge of anatomy, pouring precise amounts of reiatsu versus a blanket reverting time effect. There's no way to say that she has VC amount of spiritual energy or VC amount of spiritual control.
2. Man that Hitsugaya/Ishida fight in the opening was great. Oh, you're saying that the opening animation isn't canon and didn't happen? Neat. Next point.
3. Yes, it is actually possible for characters to have different levels of strength. Nobody's enforcing character parity, especially in a shonen manga.

Most important point. Finger flicks are generally considered to be weaker than giant mouth lasers.

[Tsukiyomi]

Dude, did you even touch the point about Yammi cracking Orihime's shield with his finger but being unable to get to Urahara with anything?

She seemed pretty determined to protect Chad, but failed.

[superman_1]

Urahara's shield is more stronger and better.....

seeing how yammy destroyed orihime's shield with just one finger and when he punched urahara's shield nothing happened to his shield and it remained intact....so urahara's shield is more stronger

[Insipidipity]

1. You can only use the healing analogy if Orihime's comparable healing rate meant something. It doesn't. It doesn't mean anything about her attributes. She can heal at a VC rate but it doesn't mean she has VC skills. Assessing injuries, using correct kidou, having fine knowledge of anatomy, pouring precise amounts of reiatsu versus a blanket reverting time effect. There's no way to say that she has VC amount of spiritual energy or VC amount of spiritual control.
2. Man that Hitsugaya/Ishida fight in the opening was great. Oh, you're saying that the opening animation isn't canon and didn't happen? Neat. Next point.
3. Yes, it is actually possible for characters to have different levels of strength. Nobody's enforcing character parity, especially in a shonen manga.

Most important point. Finger flicks are generally considered to be weaker than giant mouth lasers.
1. True enough. I wasn't really talking about skill, I was talking about power, like Sado may have the power to hurt a captain but that certainly doesn't mean he can fight on the same level.
2. Whether or not its canon, they don't really show things that are completely against the abilities of the shown characters. Of course it didn't happen, but its a good indicator of power. I mean, Yoroichi breaking the zanpaktou was a far better indication of her power than anything in the anime up to the point it was introduced.
3. True enough. But then again, theres always trade offs. Like Orihime is like Sakura, shown to have excellent control over her powers while Sado has the power like Sasuke but not as much control.

Tsukiyomi, if you didn't notice, I stopped arguing a while back that Orihime's shield was as powerful as Uruhara's sheild, like I said, I've just been trying to figure out whats with the power discrepancy. Sado and Orihime both trained with Yoroichi yet Sado suddenly makes a captain think he could've been hurt while Orihime can't hurt a 4th seat(much lower than a captain), has a healing ability that even a vice captain can compete perform, and her shield gets destroyed by a poke? Generally it just seems like people who train over the same period of time, grow about the same rate, just in different things. Like Sasuke got Chidori while Naruto got Kyubi.

I guess the best argument is that her powers are good enough considering her starting position. That is to say, Sado already was massively strong, Ishida was already powerful like Ichigo, and Orihime started from nothing, so its justifiable that she hasn't gotten to their level.

[Tsukiyomi]

Tsukiyomi, if you didn't notice, I stopped arguing a while back that Orihime's shield was as powerful as Uruhara's sheild, like I said, I've just been trying to figure out whats with the power discrepancy. Sado and Orihime both trained with Yoroichi yet Sado suddenly makes a captain think he could've been hurt while Orihime can't hurt a 4th seat(much lower than a captain),

If you want more than speculation as to who would win the fight then maybe you should make a thread outside the battledome.

I don't understand you, you're trying to figure out why Orihime isn't captain level?

Sado made a captain think he could have been hurt? That captain wasn't taking that fight seriously at all, just releasing his shikai would have upped his Reiatsu several times over.

has a healing ability that even a vice captain can compete perform, and her shield gets destroyed by a poke? Generally it just seems like people who train over the same period of time, grow about the same rate, just in different things. Like Sasuke got Chidori while Naruto got Kyubi.

The guy watching said her healing speed MAY be faster than himself or the VC, since he is not a VC he probably doesn't know what his own VC is truly capable of, and speed of healing is different than reiatsu power.

Orihime has never shown any extraordinary reiatsu, in fact everything she has ever tried to do offensively has failed horribly. Her shield has also started proving useless.

She is at such a disadvantage that Kubo Tite would need to pull a DBZ (magical beings unleashing their "true power") for her to ever hope to catch up to anyone.

I guess the best argument is that her powers are good enough considering her starting position. That is to say, Sado already was massively strong, Ishida was already powerful like Ichigo, and Orihime started from nothing, so its justifiable that she hasn't gotten to their level.[/quote]

As far as we've seen she hasn't done anything to show ANY growth since her initial training, and the gap between her and the others is at the point where it would be ludicrous for her to catch up at any point in the series unless we start talking about YEARS of her training harder than them.

[Insipidipity]

He had his Shikai out(the 2 swords) when he said getting hit by the last blast would've hurt.

Ok I think I've figured it out, her only purpose is versatility. She HAS a sheild and healing powers. Thats the only reason she's worth having. Without those 2 meager abilities, she's a waste of space and drops the average power of the group dramatically...Ganju is more a plot device than a character if you ask me so he doesn't count. Ok, its settled.

[Tsukiyomi]

He had his Shikai out(the 2 swords) when he said getting hit by the last blast would've hurt.

Um, no. He never released his Shikai until his fight with Yamamoto.

[Insipidipity]

Um, no. He never released his Shikai until his fight with Yamamoto.
Oh, whats up with having 2 Zanpaktou then?

[Tsukiyomi]

Oh, whats up with having 2 Zanpaktou then?

Because he HAS two Zankaputou, so does Ukitake. They both have twin Zanpakutou, that means two sealed swords, which become two Shikai swords and probably twin Ban Kai weapons.

So no, that wasn't his Shikai.

[InEviTabLe.SiN]

Urahara. The only reason Orihime developed her sixth sense was something to do with hanging around Ichigo too much.

[shakyninja]

Is this a joke? Orihime's shield while proven useful, seriously it can't be compared to Urahara's shield - he's the man! Orihime can't be any higher than 4th or 5th level officer and Urahara's at captain level and who knows how strong hes got since he left the soul society?

[Sasuke1_2]

Urahara's sheild. Simply because of all the facts said.

Would be nice if there was a poll too:(

[Kisame]

Blood shield pwns other baby shields, Her shield is only made because of the offdrift of Ichigos power anyway, Urahara has this.


^ pwned the thread

[Insipidipity]

^ pwned the thread
That's not a strong point because Ichigo's power that he unknowingly released when he attained shikai sliced through the bloodmist shield. He didn't even know the name yet or have the whole "resolve" thing going.

[Kisame]

That's not a strong point because Ichigo's power that he unknowingly released when he attained shikai sliced through the bloodmist shield

Caught urahara off guard with full power that he himself said he could not control and a still protected him*


Orihime would have been training on being a shinigami right about now.

[Insipidipity]

Caught urahara off guard with full power that he himself said he could not control and a still protected him*

Orihime would have been training on being a shinigami right about now.
I'm just saying that saying power coming off of Ichigo with little control isn't a good argument for being weaker than one coming from Urahara. I'd agree that it's weaker, but the reasoning is flawed. Ichigo's uncontrolled reiatsu is very potent, so it shouldn't be used as a reason why something is weak. Heck, look at Sado, his powers were enough that Shunsui said he'd be in trouble if he got hit by it. His powers were from Ichigo as well.

[BakaKage]

I'm just saying that saying power coming off of Ichigo with little control isn't a good argument for being weaker than one coming from Urahara. I'd agree that it's weaker, but the reasoning is flawed. Ichigo's uncontrolled reiatsu is very potent, so it shouldn't be used as a reason why something is weak. Heck, look at Sado, his powers were enough that Shunsui said he'd be in trouble if he got hit by it. His powers were from Ichigo as well.

Well "trouble" is highly subjective it could very well mean he'd be in trouble if his officer uniform got ripped from the blast...

P.S. please don't mind me, I'm just bored out of my mind :laugh

[Negative Reputation]

HMMM.....let me think about this.
thinking....
thinking....
Urahara's shield wins/


do I even need a reason?

[Sasuke1_2]

^not anymore now that u got banned:ban:imslow

Well *ahem* back on topic, Urahara's sheild is obviosly better. Orihime's sheild is only from Ichigo's powers. Not all his powers, they were just developed from his powers. Urahara's sheild is from an actual Soul Slayer. And he used to be a Captain too.

To top it off Yami crushed Orihime's shield but Urahara blocked his attack.

That's why Im sticking with Urahara.:nod

[Insipidipity]

^not anymore now that u got banned:ban:imslow

Well *ahem* back on topic, Urahara's sheild is obviosly better. Orihime's sheild is only from Ichigo's powers. Not all his powers, they were just developed from his powers. Urahara's sheild is from an actual Soul Slayer. And he used to be a Captain too.

To top it off Yami crushed Orihime's shield but Urahara blocked his attack.

That's why Im sticking with Urahara.:nod
Like I said, I agree with the end result(Urahara's being much stronger) but I still don't think the argument of Orihime's source of power is valid reasoning. Sado's powers were from Ichigo as well and it seems his strongest blast is as powerful as a bankai or at least stronger than shikai(although his speed is the losing factor against a real captain), namely Ichigo's Shikai blast.
So it's not unreasonable for a power derived from Ichigo's is weaker than a zanpaktou's ability, it's just not the case in this instance.

[Hissatsu]

If I was dropped on the head to the point of severe mental retardation, then I'd say Orihime's Santen Ketsuhun could beat Urahara's almighty Bloodmist sheild

[Sasuke1_2]

Like I said, I agree with the end result(Urahara's being much stronger) but I still don't think the argument of Orihime's source of power is valid reasoning. Sado's powers were from Ichigo as well and it seems his strongest blast is as powerful as a bankai or at least stronger than shikai(although his speed is the losing factor against a real captain), namely Ichigo's Shikai blast.
So it's not unreasonable for a power derived from Ichigo's is weaker than a zanpaktou's ability, it's just not the case in this instance.

That's true:wink

I'm thinking maybe more of Ichigo's power went to Sado and more of his defensive abilities went to Orihime. Thats my theory. Because when we have seen Orihime use Tsubaki, it hardly ever does anything to anyone. Sado's power can severly hurt a Captain. Even Shunsui admitted it. I find Orihime does better with defense than attacking since when she uses it, she usually blocks the attack. And her healing abilities are different than from what others have seen and they work effectively for her.Makes sense right?:P

[Insipidipity]

That's true:wink

I'm thinking maybe more of Ichigo's power went to Sado and more of his defensive abilities went to Orihime. Thats my theory. Because when we have seen Orihime use Tsubaki, it hardly ever does anything to anyone. Sado's power can severly hurt a Captain. Even Shunsui admitted it. I find Orihime does better with defense than attacking since when she uses it, she usually blocks the attack. And her healing abilities are different than from what others have seen and they work effectively for her.Makes sense right?:P
Well the thing is that Orihime's intent to kill is likely her weakest sense of resolve whereas her resolve to protect and heal are probably the greatest part of her willpower.

My theory is that because her powers are divided 3 ways, they're less powerful than say Sado's who's completely focused in one thing, offense. While her offense isn't that powerful, she has an offense, and 2 Vice Captain level abilities probably make up for a lack of a single Captain level one

[Sasuke1_2]

Well the thing is that Orihime's intent to kill is likely her weakest sense of resolve whereas her resolve to protect and heal are probably the greatest part of her willpower.

My theory is that because her powers are divided 3 ways, they're less powerful than say Sado's who's completely focused in one thing, offense. While her offense isn't that powerful, she has an offense, and 2 Vice Captain level abilities probably make up for a lack of a single Captain level one

Yeah i see ur logic. Makes sense to me.

[hjkou]

if a "special" humans shield, was stronger than arguably one of the top characters shikai, that'd be messed.. especially so, considering she has 2 other abilities

but yeah, urahara owns

[Azurite]

Orihimes sheild. What are you ppl talking about? Her sheild protected herself from the ICE PRINCE!

[Wrath]

Given the nature of Orihime's shield, theoretically it's more powerful. But right now, in practise, it'll be weaker.

[Pimp of Pimps]

Orihime's shield has the potiental to be stronger, but as of yet Urahara's is better.

I sincerly doubt Ichigo could replicate the level of power he used against Urahara easily. Even his blasts against yakuya were weaker than that blast. And Urahara was in a gigai, last I checked that limits his power.

[Sasuke1_2]

Orihimes sheild. What are you ppl talking about? Her sheild protected herself from the ICE PRINCE!

Perhaps...but when she was up against Yamii her shield did nothing but when Urahara used it against him...he was able to block it.

Orihime's shield comes from Ichigo's powers. It may be possible for her to make her shield stronger but at the moment...she's no where near Urahara's level.

[Insipidipity]

I sincerly doubt Ichigo could replicate the level of power he used against Urahara easily. Even his blasts against yakuya were weaker than that blast. And Urahara was in a gigai, last I checked that limits his power.
Wasn't that power he used weaker than normal since he didn't know the name of the blast. And being in a gigai is supposed to enhance his strength isn't it becuase it's supposed to help restore reiatsu.

[Pimp of Pimps]

Wasn't that power he used weaker than normal since he didn't know the name of the blast. And being in a gigai is supposed to enhance his strength isn't it becuase it's supposed to help restore reiatsu.

From the looks of it that was a stronger blast that Ichigo can't easily replicate.

And being in a gigai does not enhance one's strengh. It just helps one restore their powers, not enhance. Hence why Isshin lost so much reitsu from before, he was in a gigai for 20 years.

[Ruach]

I'd like to say Kisuke, but recent developments suggest otherwise, I'd have to put my money on Orihime as far as potential, but Kisuke would be better at it now. What makes me angry is that Orihime's powers are just Ichigo's sloppy seconds anyway.

[Insipidipity]

What makes me angry is that Orihime's powers are just Ichigo's sloppy seconds anyway.
Not really, his powers just activated hers. It's just like saying that Ichigo's powers are Rukia's sloppy seconds. I mean, heck, Sado was in the same situation and his hits are like Bankai level blasts.

The only tradeoff for Orihime is that she has 3 abilities. But then again she also has limitations such as no potential for Shunpo and no Zanpaktou and a weak offense.

[omg laser pew pew!]

Orihime's shield has the potiental to be stronger, but as of yet Urahara's is better.
[quote]
I sincerly doubt Ichigo could replicate the level of power he used against Urahara easily. Even his blasts against yakuya were weaker than that blast. And Urahara was in a gigai, last I checked that limits his power.

Prove that the blast is weaker than the first and second one he did

[Mat®icha]

blood shield is much stronger, i think.

[Parell]

Orihime's shield is stronger. She rejects things on the outside instead of just simply blocking them, and plus her powers(such as her shield) are fueled by her feelings, which we know are plenty strong.

[Soul Vibe]

Urahara's shield is better.

need proof?
look at the fight against Yammy

Orihime's shield cracked when Yammy struck it.
Urahara's did not.

Hence, Urahara's shield > Orihime's

[Pimp of Pimps]

Prove that the blast is weaker than the first and second one he did

The first blast seems to be the strongest blast from his shikai so far. and I didn't say he couldn't, I said he couldn't replicate that power easily as of yet.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/601/6717vp4.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=6717vp4.jpg)

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7982/16104wl4.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=16104wl4.jpg)

[Insipidipity]

The first blast seems to be the strongest blast from his shikai so far. and I didn't say he couldn't, I said he couldn't replicate that power easily as of yet.
In addition to that statement making no sense whatsoever("I didn't say he couldn't, I said he couldn't..."), the picture only seems bigger because of the angle. It's a little thing called perspective. Notice how the first one is from inside and the other is from the top?
And furthermore, the strength of a blast isn't even measured by the size. If anything, a larger blast earlier on would indicate a lack of control and a lower density overall.

[Pimp of Pimps]

In addition to that statement making no sense whatsoever("I didn't say he couldn't, I said he couldn't..."), the picture only seems bigger because of the angle. It's a little thing called perspective. Notice how the first one is from inside and the other is from the top?
And furthermore, the strength of a blast isn't even measured by the size. If anything, a larger blast earlier on would indicate a lack of control and a lower density overall.

He asked for proof that the blast was weaker. I gave thaat to him. and there wasn't much of a persective problem since the cliff basiccly ends right there. :wink

I never mentioned the size of the blast, but the size of the damaged caused. The damage caused by the first moon slice is definatley bigger than the one against Byakuya. Of course there is the possiblity he was just trying to show off the blast to Byakuya and not hurt him much, but I kinda doubt that. Also Ichigo has never shown a great amount of control over his reiatsu, so it's likley bigger blast equals more power unless he uses this ability in bankai where it is more compressed and therefore more powerful.

And there was no need for you to twist my statment like that, you should have known exactly what I meant. In case you didn't understand, it'll take strawberry some charging up before he can make a blast of that magnitude with out going hollow or bankai.

And like I said Urahara is in a gigai. And not just any gigai, but a reiatsu concealing gigai. He has been hiding from SS for around a 100 years or so, meaning it's posible he has been in a gigai (that makes him weaker) for a 100 years. Meaning his shield against Ichigo and Yami was no where near it's full power.

[Insipidipity]

He asked for proof that the blast was weaker. I gave thaat to him. and there wasn't much of a persective problem since the cliff basiccly ends right there.
I never mentioned the size of the blast, but the size of the damaged caused. The damage caused by the first moon slice is definatley bigger than the one against Byakuya. Of course there is the possiblity he was just trying to show off the blast to Byakuya and not hurt him much, but I kinda doubt that. Also Ichigo has never shown a great amount of control over his reiatsu, so it's likley bigger blast equals more power unless he uses this ability in bankai where it is more compressed and therefore more powerful.

And there was no need for you to twist my statment like that, you should have known exactly what I meant. In case you didn't understand, it'll take strawberry some charging up before he can make a blast of that magnitude with out going hollow or bankai.

I'm going to assume you basically just didn't read my post and skimmed it for words because you basically ignored my explanations...
1. That was not a proof. That was evidence, and poor one at that.
2. Perspective has nothing to do with a cliff "ending". It's the angle it's shown. Like I said, "Notice how the first one is from inside and the other is from the top?" If you look at a hole from the inside, it will always look bigger than an overhead view.
3. The damage caused is due to the size of the blast...
4. He WASNT trying to hurt Byakuya, he was trying to get Byakuya to show his Bankai so he could defeat it.
5. Ichigo has been showing more and more control ever since he fought Renji, who explicitly mentioned how, while his power was quieter, it was much more powerful.
6. If someone doesn't know what you meant, then it means you didn't state it well. That was a direct quote without anything removed from the middle. Not to mention it was nonsense in the context of what b.r posted.
7. And finally and most importantly, Ichigo has explictly said how all his blasts before he never knew how he did it, and how Zangetsu explicitly said "Knowing the name will make a difference in the power". He never mentioned any sort of exception.

[Pimp of Pimps]

I'm going to assume you basically just didn't read my post and skimmed it for words because you basically ignored my explanations...

You know what you are when you assume...don't make me say it.

1. That was not a proof. That was evidence, and poor one at that.

Alright. It was evidence. But don't call it poor unless you have something that can bring it down.

2. Perspective has nothing to do with a cliff "ending". It's the angle it's shown. Like I said, "Notice how the first one is from inside and the other is from the top?" If you look at a hole from the inside, it will always look bigger than an overhead view.

The angle doesn't make an enourmas differance in this case. No matter how you look at it the first one was bigger.

3. The damage caused is due to the size of the blast...

Speculaton much? It may or may not. but the more reitsu Zangestu throws out the more powerful the blast'll be. Making it likley that the bigger = more powerful in shikai.

4. He WASNT trying to hurt Byakuya, he was trying to get Byakuya to show his Bankai so he could defeat it.

He ws trying to hurt Byakuya. He didn't get completley serious until bankai but he was trying to hurt byakuya the whole fight.

5. Ichigo has been showing more and more control ever since he fought Renji, who explicitly mentioned how, while his power was quieter, it was much more powerful.

Your point? the fact still remains, Ichigo isn't very good in controlling his reitsu. Someone of his strengh should be able to control his reiastsu MUCH better.

6. If someone doesn't know what you meant, then it means you didn't state it well. That was a direct quote without anything removed from the middle. Not to mention it was nonsense in the context of what b.r posted.

You didn't understand it. Don't try to say it was my fault when it was common sense what I was talking about.

7. And finally and most importantly, Ichigo has explictly said how all his blasts before he never knew how he did it, and how Zangetsu explicitly said "Knowing the name will make a difference in the power". He never mentioned any sort of exception.

Ichigo was able to do the blasts during the bankai training before Zangestu told him the name by will. Knowing the name increased the power of the blasts from the training. And only because Zangestu didn't say there weren't exeptions doesn't mean there weren't. The first blast was at least as powerful as the blast against Byakuya.


Anyway, I'm done. The point of this thread has already been awnsered by other including myself.

[Insipidipity]

You know what you are when you assume...don't make me say it.The word is "correct"

Alright. It was evidence. But don't call it poor unless you have something that can bring it down.I did. Try reading my post.


The angle doesn't make an enourmas differance in this case. No matter how you look at it the first one was bigger.

...according to you, yet you make no attempts to support this. Simply saying "no matter how you look at it" doesn't make it true.

Speculaton much? It may or may not. but the more reitsu Zangestu throws out the more powerful the blast'll be. Making it likley that the bigger = more powerful in shikai.

Misspelling much? Syllogistic fallacy much? Yes, more reiatsu means more powerful. And that STILL has nothing to do with the size of the blast...
Your point? the fact still remains, Ichigo isn't very good in controlling his reitsu. Someone of his strengh should be able to control his reiastsu MUCH better.
So what? It doesn't matter how "much better" he should be able to. The fact is that he CAN control his reiatsu, and that's enough to make a difference in the control of a blast...You didn't understand it. Don't try to say it was my fault when it was common sense what I was talking about. [/FONT][/B]Ah yes, the "common sense" bull card. Funny how often people resort to that when they can't support what they say.Ichigo was able to do the blasts during the bankai training before Zangestu told him the name by will. Knowing the name increased the power of the blasts from the training. And only because Zangestu didn't say there weren't exeptions doesn't mean there weren't.

speculation...
The first blast was at least as powerful as the blast against Byakuya.
speculating AGAIN...that'll take you far. With all the copout arguments you make, might as well...

[omg laser pew pew!]

As I believe you once said at Blizzforums

"Never argue with the Whiz!"

[Sasuke1_2]

arguing with Insipidipity is like suicide

the guy is an awsome debater and always brings up good points.

[Parell]

Speculaton much? It may or may not. but the more reitsu Zangestu throws out the more powerful the blast'll be. Making it likley that the bigger = more powerful in shikai.

Wasn't it said by Isshin that bigger dosn't mean better? It just means you don't know hot to condense and control you reiatsu.

[Freija the Dick]

well let's see, Urahara's shield took Getsuga Tenshou almost completely, and easily stopped a bara/bala without being full powered, and Inoue's shield cracked like hell when Yami stomped on it or something.

[Pimp of Pimps]

Wasn't it said by Isshin that bigger dosn't mean better? It just means you don't know hot to condense and control you reiatsu.

He was talking about zanpaktou, not reiatsu.

~~~~

Shinji himself says Ichigo has bad spirtual control. According to him, it was a miracle Ichigo even found them. And this was when they were throwing their spirtual energy around just so they could be found. I can't see how Ichigo could compress the size of his blast seeing as how he has horrible control over his spiritual energy. Going by this we can say that a bigger blast = more power = more destruction.

And there is no question that the first blast is bigger than any other shikai blast thus far. It's not about the angles. The angles are different, but they aren't that different. The first on is clearly bigger. And the second one couldn't have had gotten much bigger as the cliff ended right there.

Also it is clearly stated that Ichigo learned how to use Zangestu's ability in the training. Zangestu himself stated this. He then told Ichigo the name and said knowing the name makes a differance in strengh of the blast.

If you're saying that the first blast wasn't stronger than the second, you're saying Yami's attacks against Urahara were weaker than the blasts against Byakuya. Which I doubt.

And Insipidipity don't make me laugh. None of your points are any good. It just all speculation and one desperate attemp on using angles to your advantage. You keep on more reiastu doesn't mean bigger blast and yet you have nothing backing this up. It's possible but not lickley.

Even in bankai bigger blast = more power. They are just more compressed to start with.

And just so you know, the angles from the 2 pics aren't very different. One is slighley higher than the other and that's it.