Dude, how is Ichigo in Shikai w/o Zangetsu...?

[Warsaint777]

Something's not right. As soon as Zangetsu left Ichigo's body his Bankai downgraded into Shikai form. But I mean, I thought the whole point of Shikai is that you have a personal relationship with your Zanpakuto and can call upon its name. Doesn't it even translate to "half release"? So without Zangetsu, his sword should have downgraded all the way down to zero-- to the oversized regular katana he had when he first became a Reaper. Then I mean it maybe would've broken again since no-name Zanpakutos are apparently brittle and whatever. So like it seems his whole fight with Zangetsu should have basically been Ichigo as a hollow with empty hands. I mean, that's what would've made more sense to me, anyway.

So what gives? Did I miss a one-line fix for this during the episode or what?

[Yak]

Something's not right. As soon as Zangetsu left Ichigo's body his Bankai downgraded into Shikai form. But I mean, I thought the whole point of Shikai is that you have a personal relationship with your Zanpakuto and can call upon its name. Doesn't it even translate to "half release"? So without Zangetsu, his sword should have downgraded all the way down to zero-- to the oversized regular katana he had when he first become a Reaper. Then it probably would've broken again since no-name Zanpakutos are apparently brittle and whatever. So like it seems his whole fight with Zangetsu should have basically been Ichigo as a hollow with empty hands. I mean, that's what would've made more sense to me, anyway.

So what gives? Did I miss a one-line fix for this during the episode or what?

Its quite simple. Ichigo's sword is always in released state, whether Zangetsu resides inside it or not. That simply IS its shape, in standard and in shikai form.

It would not even have reverted to that big ass katana from when he first became a shinigami because that only manifested because he was lent Rukia's powers. Which then were taken away by Byakuya.

That was the whole deal at Urahara's by the way, to manifest Ichigos OWN shinigami-powers. Which he did. And thus received the new form, Zangetsu.

[Razor Ramon HG]

I was gonna make the same topic!

I'm think the standard shape was a bit different before he found zangetsu, im not sure though.

[FrostXian]

Na, it's the same. I guess it really has no lower form, even if it can't use shikai abilities.

[Utopia Realm]

Na, it's the same. I guess it really has no lower form, even if it can't use shikai abilities.

You have a point there. Shirosaki probably has Zangetsus' shikai abilities( and maybe bankai as well) and took over Ichigo as you saw him use a GT to counter Zangetsu's own.

[Unbelievable]

You have a point there. Shirosaki probably has Zangetsus' shikai abilities( and maybe bankai as well) and took over Ichigo as you saw him use a GT to counter Zangetsu's own.

In that case, Ichigo (as well as Shirosaki) should have been able to go Bankai.

[Vino]

That's because Shirosaki is his power source now, hence he stayed in shikai form.

[KazeYama]

Shirosaki and Zangetsu are two halves of the same thing. They are both connected somehow as shown when Shirosaki went back into Zangetsu during the Kenpachi fight when he first appeared.

I imagine the Shirosaki half lets him use shikai and black Getsuga but both halves are needed in order to fully utilize Bankai.

Either that or animators are lazy and didn't want to explain it so they kept it the same.

[Serp]

Its quite simple. Ichigo's sword is always in released state, whether Zangetsu resides inside it or not. That simply IS its shape, in standard and in shikai form.

It would not even have reverted to that big ass katana from when he first became a shinigami because that only manifested because he was lent Rukia's powers. Which then were taken away by Byakuya.

That was the whole deal at Urahara's by the way, to manifest Ichigos OWN shinigami-powers. Which he did. And thus received the new form, Zangetsu.

Actually once Ichigo received his own shinigami powers with Urahara he still had the guardless hilt of his previous sword until he went shikai, so using that point the big ass katana is truly his standard form as he had it even when he was no longer using Rukia's powers.

Just thought I should mention this.

[Corran]

Because if it went back to his original huge Katana it would be the size of a skyscraper :zaru
No one remembered this? :laugh

[Taurus Versant]

Actually once Ichigo received his own shinigami powers with Urahara he still had the guardless hilt of his previous sword until he went shikai, so using that point the big ass katana is truly his standard form as he had it even when he was no longer using Rukia's powers.

Just thought I should mention this.

I'm pretty sure Zangetsu's released form overwrote that.

[son_michael]

Shirosaki and Zangetsu are two halves of the same thing. They are both connected somehow as shown when Shirosaki went back into Zangetsu during the Kenpachi fight when he first appeared.

I imagine the Shirosaki half lets him use shikai and black Getsuga but both halves are needed in order to fully utilize Bankai.

Either that or animators are lazy and didn't want to explain it so they kept it the same.

This


Shirosaki can use Zangetsu's power

[Mider T]

It's his lack of reiatsu control that keeps it in it's released form, Zangetsu has nothing to do with it.

[Yak]

Actually once Ichigo received his own shinigami powers with Urahara he still had the guardless hilt of his previous sword until he went shikai, so using that point the big ass katana is truly his standard form as he had it even when he was no longer using Rukia's powers.

Just thought I should mention this.

He had his shinigami powers inside him but until he pulled out the zangetsu we know now, he had not activated them. So no, it should not be his true standart form. Its nothing but the remains of a nameless soul cutter, just like every jock shinigami in SS has one.

[Serp]

I'm pretty sure Zangetsu's released form overwrote that.

There is no actually proof for what you are saying, but what as been shown was when Ichigo came out of the shattered shaft with his own shinigami powers, he still had the big ass katana handle, which makes sense because he is still shit at controlling his spiritual power and would still have a big ass sword outisde of shikai, and seeing as to fix your broken sword you need to materlise your spirit (e.g Ichigo vs Ken and Renji after the fight with Ichigo.) Ichigo hadn't met Zangetsu yet, hence the sword in unreleased form was still broken.

Byakuya had taken his shinigami powers away completely. So he came out of the shattered shaft with his own shinigami powers and his unreleased sword, Kisuke then started to fight him and he had to go Shikai to defend himself which at that point he shouted out Zangetsu's name and did a getsuga tensho.

Its all there in the manga, the animators just fucked up or the Shirosaki Zangetsu connection would make sense.

[Sabu935]

Remember when Hollow Ichigo said "I am Zangetsu"?There is your answer.

[Warsaint777]

Remember when Hollow Ichigo said "I am Zangetsu"?There is your answer.

I'm gonna buy this one, but with one complaint. In this case Zangetsu (the sword) should have been WHITE. That's all I got.

Dude how sick would that have been though? XD

[Tasmanian Tiger]

fillers don't make sense. Zangetsu is Ichigo's SHIKAI form. He cannot seal it, like the other captains because of high spiritual power, etc.

[Robert Haydn]

I haven't read all the posts, but there can't be a reason for it.
The animators are just being lazy or forgetful.

It's his lack of reiatsu control that keeps it in it's released form, Zangetsu has nothing to do with it.
That's true, it is why he hasn't been able to seal his sword since first releasing it. However, Zangetsu was always in him, Ichigo just lacks control and can't seal his Zanpakuto. It's still a Zanpakuto, he's no different than Rukia in this aspect.

With Zangetsu separated, Ichigo should have gone back to this
http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/overkill007/Ichigo%20Kurosaki/ichigowithunrealeasedzanpakto.jpg

There's no arguing it

[Mider T]

I haven't read all the posts, but there can't be a reason for it.
The animators are just being lazy or forgetful.


That's true, it is why he hasn't been able to seal his sword since first releasing it. However, Zangetsu was always in him, Ichigo just lacks control and can't seal his Zanpakuto. It's still a Zanpakuto, he's no different than Rukia in this aspect.

With Zangetsu separated, Ichigo should have gone back to this
http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/overkill007/Ichigo%20Kurosaki/ichigowithunrealeasedzanpakto.jpg

There's no arguing it

*Argues*:awesome

That sword wasn't even Zangetsu, that was just Sode no Shiraiyuki with Ichigo's massive spiritual pressure influencing it. He hadn't even gotten his own Shinigami powers yet.

It doesn't matter what type of Zanpaktou you have, if you pour too much reiatsu in it without restraint it will grow in size. This is what Isshin explained to Grand Fisher.

[Robert Haydn]

*Argues*:awesome

That sword wasn't even Zangetsu, that was just Sode no Shiraiyuki with Ichigo's massive spiritual pressure influencing it. He hadn't even gotten his own Shinigami powers yet.

It doesn't matter what type of Zanpaktou you have, if you pour too much reiatsu in it without restraint it will grow in size. This is what Isshin explained to Grand Fisher.
Whhhy? :D:

Where was it said that he was using Rukia's Sode no Shiraiyuki that whole time? After she gave him her powers, she still had a sword, so I doubt it belong to her. If it did, it would be regular sized, and it wouldn't release into Zangetsu.

[5il3nc3r]

^actually, after she gave him powers in the first episode, she went back to having a white robe (like in the tower before her execution). She wanted to transfer only a bit of her power, to keep hers, but she ended up giving all of it, so she went back to a normal rukongai soul.

[Mider T]

Whhhy? :D:

Where was it said that he was using Rukia's Sode no Shiraiyuki that whole time? After she gave him her powers, she still had a sword, so I doubt it belong to her. If it did, it would be regular sized, and it wouldn't release into Zangetsu.

She had a sword, but it had no soul. With her Shinigami powers transferred into Ichigo so did the blade of her soul.

What are you talking about? I just told you why it was so big, and why it wasn't Zangetsu.

[Warsaint777]

I don't buy the concept of Ichigo's first sword being Rukia's sword. That's pure theory. It makes more sense that the big katana he first got was unique to himself, and just a big manifestation of his spiritual pressure. No sword spirit or special powers or anything.

I'm telling you people, the black hiltless/guardless blade that is Zangetsu in half-release form requires the SPIRIT and PRESENCE of Zanegtesu. It requires him being there and being able to call upon his name. They made a huge deal out of it when Ichigo first figured it out. So I seriously think the filler writers effed up here. The only way to justify him doing shikai by himself is by assuming he's using White Ichigo's Zangetsu. Even in which case the sword should have appeared glossy white. In fact, technically, he should even be able to pull out a white Tensa Zangetsu in this state, shouldn't he? That'd be awesome too.

Seriously if the filler writers just stuck to the simple consistencies of this series... They're not that difficult. Anyway, whatever-- this filler is still really cool so far.

Silencer your sig is uberhot btw.

[Taurus Versant]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Kubo himself confirmed that the sword was Rukia's.

[Robert Haydn]

She had a sword, but it had no soul. With her Shinigami powers transferred into Ichigo so did the blade of her soul.

What are you talking about? I just told you why it was so big, and why it wasn't Zangetsu.
I'm talking about his sword. She gave him her powers but I'm not believing he got Sode no Shiraiyuki unless it's stated. She gave him the ability to become a soul reaper, but he got his own Zanpakuto.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/16/
As you can see, just as he learns Zangetsu's name and releases it for the first time, what should appear as the sword he released ? The big sword he had all along, it was always had Zangetsu. Maybe Rukia giving him her powers affected the way it looked, but the big sword he had at the beginning of the series is his sealed sword and what he should have now, seeing as it's empty.

[Tasmanian Tiger]

stop trying to make sense of Bleach :awesome


Ichigo should have a regular katana if Zangetsu escaped.

[Mider T]

I don't buy the concept of Ichigo's first sword being Rukia's sword. That's pure theory. It makes more sense that the big katana he first got was unique to himself, and just a big manifestation of his spiritual pressure. No sword spirit or special powers or anything.

It wasn't Zangetsu at all. Swords don't just change in shape when you learn their name, especially since his was always released and never sealed.

I'm telling you people, the black hiltless/guardless blade that is Zangetsu in half-release form requires the SPIRIT and PRESENCE of Zanegtesu. It requires him being there and being able to call upon his name. They made a huge deal out of it when Ichigo first figured it out. So I seriously think the filler writers effed up here. The only way to justify him doing shikai by himself is by assuming he's using White Ichigo's Zangetsu. Even in which case the sword should have appeared glossy white. In fact, technically, he should even be able to pull out a white Tensa Zangetsu in this state, shouldn't he? That'd be awesome too.

Kubo gives direction to the filler writers, so I doubt it.

Seriously if the filler writers just stuck to the simple consistencies of this series... They're not that difficult. Anyway, whatever-- this filler is still really cool so far.

They're really good with working with Kubo in incorporating it later on.

I'm talking about his sword. She gave him her powers but I'm not believing he got Sode no Shiraiyuki unless it's stated. She gave him the ability to become a soul reaper, but he got his own Zanpakuto.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/16/
As you can see, just as he learns Zangetsu's name and releases it for the first time, what should appear as the sword he released ? The big sword he had all along, it was always had Zangetsu. Maybe Rukia giving him her powers affected the way it looked, but the big sword he had at the beginning of the series is his sealed sword and what he should have now, seeing as it's empty.

It wasn't Zangetsu, had it been he would've known immediately as Byakuya broke it, instinctually. Rukia didn't just give him the ability, she transferred her entire power to him. The fact that he was already giving out tons of spiritual pressure was just an added bonus.

Of course, Ichigo couldn't have communicated with Sode no Shiraiyuki when using it. It was just like Kenpachi using his Zanpaktou during his fight with Ichigo.

[James]

Kubo doesn't exactly give them much "direction", he seems to give them some sketches and probably nods or shakes his head when they say "Can we use this idea?" or "How about doing this with this character?". I think they discuss some ideas with him at one off meetings but he isn't regularly involved.

Remember he's a busy ass man doing his own manga (even if it is lazy sometimes), he probably doesn't have the time to go talk to all the writers and read over all their damn scripts and approve everything. It's more like ideas for general concepts.

It's possible that Ichigo's sword has no lower state, it's also possible the anime team just fucked up or ignored the fact he shouldn't be able to use it for the sake of keeping his recognisable sword.

[Mider T]

Or it's possible that his sword is always in it's unreleased state, which isn't necessary for shikai. Reiatsu attacks can still be conducted (see Ishida vs. Ichigo, Kenpachi)

[Sabu935]

stop trying to make sense of Bleach :awesome


Ichigo should have a regular katana if Zangetsu escaped.
Buuuuuttttt,Hollow Ichigo said he is Zangetsu.

[Tasmanian Tiger]

Buuuuuttttt,Hollow Ichigo said he is Zangetsu.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/1216/05/1216_05_54---Stop-Sign--Beatty--Nevada--USA_web.jpg trying to make sense of Bleach

[TS_Basilisk]

Didn't you know? Tensa Zangetsu is actually the Shikai; Ichigo hasn't gotten to Bankai yet. smile-big

Realistically, either Hichigo is giving the zanpakuto that form due to his continued presence or it simply can't revert to its base form due to the pressure that formed in the blade and the state of disrepair the original katana was it when it was released.

Or the animators forgot what his original sword looked like. :P

[Warsaint777]

Didn't you know? Tensa Zangetsu is actually the Shikai; Ichigo hasn't gotten to Bankai yet. smile-big

ghoperapiogndlakhjgoapehea...----

WHAT???

I say his sword should be a regular bigass katana, not just for consistency but because it would have been awesomer than just his same-ol' same-ol'. Anyway, there's obviously no resolve to this topic, so I stop here.

[Mider T]

Buuuuuttttt,Hollow Ichigo said he is Zangetsu.

Go read my thread in the Library and come back in here with new stuff.

[neo-dragon]

I don't buy the idea that Ichigo started out with Rukia's sword. Remember when he first met Renji and they fought in the real world Renji asked him what the name of his sword was, and then made fun of him for not being able to communicate with it. Furthermore, when Renji commented on its size Ichigo remarked that he only had Rukia's to compare it to. I admit that Ichigo was clueless about the Zanpaktous at the time, but Renji wasn't, and their conversation suggests that Ichigo and Rukia wielded different swords all along.

[Mider T]

I don't buy the idea that Ichigo started out with Rukia's sword. Remember when he first met Renji and they fought in the real world Renji asked him what the name of his sword was, and then made fun of him for not being able to communicate with it. Furthermore, when Renji commented on its size Ichigo remarked that he only had Rukia's to compare it to. I admit that Ichigo was clueless about the Zanpaktous at the time, but Renji wasn't, and their conversation suggests that Ichigo and Rukia wielded different swords all along.

How does that suggest anything? Seriously you just brought up points that neither contributed nor debunked your theory.

[neo-dragon]

Wasn't I clear? Why would Renji ask Ichigo the name of his sword if he knew it was just Rukia's on steroids?

[son_michael]

Ichigo took ruki'as powers. He didn't take her zanpaktou spirit-__- Zangetsu was always inside of that big ass sword


remembr Zangetsu said he was always calling to Ichigo but Ichigo never heard him.


Another thing. Rukia was expecting her powers to return even after she said Ichigo took all of her power. Obviously implying that Ichigo simply took all of her reiatsu or w/e. Certaintly not her Zanpaktou spirit.

[neo-dragon]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that too. That pretty much settles it.

[5il3nc3r]

I don't buy the concept of Ichigo's first sword being Rukia's sword. That's pure theory. It makes more sense that the big katana he first got was unique to himself, and just a big manifestation of his spiritual pressure. No sword spirit or special powers or anything.

I'm telling you people, the black hiltless/guardless blade that is Zangetsu in half-release form requires the SPIRIT and PRESENCE of Zanegtesu. It requires him being there and being able to call upon his name. They made a huge deal out of it when Ichigo first figured it out. So I seriously think the filler writers effed up here. The only way to justify him doing shikai by himself is by assuming he's using White Ichigo's Zangetsu. Even in which case the sword should have appeared glossy white. In fact, technically, he should even be able to pull out a white Tensa Zangetsu in this state, shouldn't he? That'd be awesome too.

Seriously if the filler writers just stuck to the simple consistencies of this series... They're not that difficult. Anyway, whatever-- this filler is still really cool so far.

Silencer your sig is uberhot btw.
I approve of everything :amuse

And I know :kloff

Ichigo took ruki'as powers. He didn't take her zanpaktou spirit-__- Zangetsu was always inside of that big ass sword


remembr Zangetsu said he was always calling to Ichigo but Ichigo never heard him.


Another thing. Rukia was expecting her powers to return even after she said Ichigo took all of her power. Obviously implying that Ichigo simply took all of her reiatsu or w/e. Certaintly not her Zanpaktou spirit.
/thread

[Robert Haydn]

Ahh good points, there really is no going against it now.
Without Zangetsu, Ichigo SHOULD be left with his jumbo katana.
Yet he isn't, and that's an error on their part.

[son_michael]

Ahh good points, there really is no going against it now.
Without Zangetsu, Ichigo SHOULD be left with his jumbo katana.
Yet he isn't, and that's an error on their part.


It could be that the reason his sword still looks like Zangetsu is because of Shirosaki.remember Shirosaki is apart of Zangetsu so it's likely as long as Shirosaki has that link he has some of Zangetsu's power{as shown last ep when he used getsuga tenshou w/o zangetsu being in ichigo's body}


It also could be that his old Katana was just a place holder until his real sword emerged. The rules might be different for permanent release types like Ichigo's Zanpaktou. for all we know those types of Zanpaktou can only be released when the fake outer shell is destroyed....or at the very least once it's released it destroys the old katana.Remember that Yorouichi said once those types of Zanpaktou are released they never go back to the unreleased state.

[Robert Haydn]

It could be that the reason his sword still looks like Zangetsu is because of Shirosaki.remember Shirosaki is apart of Zangetsu so it's likely as long as Shirosaki has that link he has some of Zangetsu's power{as shown last ep when he used getsuga tenshou w/o zangetsu being in ichigo's body}
Than shouldn't it be the inverted color version he uses?


It also could be that his old Katana was just a place holder until his real sword emerged. The rules might be different for permanent release types like Ichigo's Zanpaktou. for all we know those types of Zanpaktou can only be released when the fake outer shell is destroyed....or at the very least once it's released it destroys the old katana.Remember that Yorouichi said once those types of Zanpaktou are released they never go back to the unreleased state.
If that were the case, than Ichigo shouldn't have a weapon at all.

[5il3nc3r]

Than shouldn't it be the inverted color version he uses?
No. It just means that he still has access to his moves, because the source is still there. Even if the source is now Shirosaki, it's still Ichigo using it (or at least Ichigo's body).
And until we see an actual manifestation of Shirosaki in the real world (and I mean, to the same level as Zangetsu when Ichigo was trying to get bankai, not him taking over Kurosaki's body) then I will stand by my point.

If that were the case, than Ichigo shouldn't have a weapon at all.
If it never goes back to the unreleased state, it means it always stays in shikai state :pek:gun

[Robert Haydn]

If it never goes back to the unreleased state, it means it always stays in shikai state :pek:gun
Sorry for continually opposing you but where do they say he can't ever go back to sealed form? He just doesn't know how or cares to know, it's too hard anyway, but it's not impossible.

So because it's 'always' in Shikai, he gets a free Shikai when Zangetsu goes bye? :<3

There is no sense in that, I know it's fiction but there's really no sense in that. If Ichigo's Zanpactuio is really totally incapable of going back to sealed form, than Zangetsu leaving should result in empty hands and no remains.

[son_michael]

can we even say Zangetsu is really just a sword? It seems more like Zangetsu is apart of Ichigo's soul and the actual Zangetsu sword is just a Conduit so Ichigo can attack with his power.


Therefore I don't think the sword would change even if Zangetsu left it....




Hey guys even more evidence....I just watched dub ep 20 and when Ichigo transforms into a shinigami the first time without Rukia's power he still has the same Zanpaktou he had when he lost her power{broken stub} meaning that zanpaktou he used was always his unreleased zanpaktou.

[Robert Haydn]

Hey guys even more evidence....I just watched dub ep 20 and when Ichigo transforms into a shinigami the first time without Rukia's power he still has the same Zanpaktou he had when he lost her power{broken stub} meaning that zanpaktou he used was always his unreleased zanpaktou.
:twitch That's what I've been saying!

[5il3nc3r]

Sorry for continually opposing you but where do they say he can't ever go back to sealed form? He just doesn't know how or cares to know, it's too hard anyway, but it's not impossible.

So because it's 'always' in Shikai, he gets a free Shikai when Zangetsu goes bye? :<3

There is no sense in that, I know it's fiction but there's really no sense in that. If Ichigo's Zanpactuio is really totally incapable of going back to sealed form, than Zangetsu leaving should result in empty hands and no remains.
I do believe that Yoruichi says so, when she's explaining about Shikai and Bankai to him, right before his training. That his sword is a "permanent-release" form, or something to that matter.

But yea, not only is it fiction, but it's also a filler :P

[neko-sennin]

I'm surprised no one brought this up on the first page. I wish I could remember which chapter/episode, but I'm pretty sure it was established that some Zanpakutou, once awakened, stay in a "permanent" shikai mode. Though, oddly enough, I can't think of any other character whose sword stays released like that, except possibly Kenpachi, since people keep citing the databook on that. :notrust At the same time, you might notice that every "named" character in the series has a distinctive look for their sword, even when not released, including custom wraps, hilts, and even distinctive blade shapes and sheaths. Though apparently powerless without their zanpakutou spirit residing within them, as I suspect Ichigo's would be as well without his Hollow powers to draw upon.

As for why Ichigo can still use Getsuga is probably because 1) the attack is "powered" by his own reiatsu, or (at least this is my understanding) Shirosaki's when using his Hollow powers, and 2) though he has "lost" Zangetsu, his inner Hollow still resides within him, either or both. And I'm pretty sure, during Ichigo's Vizard training, Shirosaki claimed he and Old Man Zangetsu were one and the same... which means Ichigo's power has been split in half instead of cut off completely like the others? :huh

Given that this is just a filler, I'm not really going to sweat the small stuff, but it seems that manga canon does give the writers a couple potential loopholes to work with.

[Kasuke Sadiki]

It could be that the reason his sword still looks like Zangetsu is because of Shirosaki.remember Shirosaki is apart of Zangetsu so it's likely as long as Shirosaki has that link he has some of Zangetsu's power{as shown last ep when he used getsuga tenshou w/o zangetsu being in ichigo's body}


It also could be that his old Katana was just a place holder until his real sword emerged. The rules might be different for permanent release types like Ichigo's Zanpaktou. for all we know those types of Zanpaktou can only be released when the fake outer shell is destroyed....or at the very least once it's released it destroys the old katana.Remember that Yorouichi said once those types of Zanpaktou are released they never go back to the unreleased state.

And if it's true that Kenpachi's sword is permanent shikai (which I find hard to believe) then we know that these types of swords definitely don't follow the rules since he doesn't even know it's name. I don't really buy that though so I think the Shirosaki explanation is best. He is able to sustain it in that form because of Shirosaki's presence.


As for why Ichigo can still use Getsuga is probably because 1) the attack is "powered" by his own reiatsu, or (at least this is my understanding) Shirosaki's when using his Hollow powers, and 2) though he has "lost" Zangetsu, his inner Hollow still resides within him, either or both. And I'm pretty sure, during Ichigo's Vizard training, Shirosaki claimed he and Old Man Zangetsu were one and the same... which means Ichigo's power has been split in half instead of cut off completely like the others? :huh



I'm pretty sure Ichigo only used the red Getsuga in that fight and so it makes sense since he said the black getsuga was exclusively shirosaki's technique

[Omaeda Takes It Alone]

Too much to read, but Ichigo's long katana in the Agent of SS arc had Rukia's design. Afterall, he was borrowing her shinigami powers, stated by Zangetsu. I think it's reasonable that Ichigo's burst against Renji was dormant reiatsu, resolve, or instinct instead of Zangetsu awakening.

[son_michael]

Too much to read, but Ichigo's long katana in the Agent of SS arc had Rukia's design. Afterall, he was borrowing her shinigami powers, stated by Zangetsu. I think it's reasonable that Ichigo's burst against Renji was dormant reiatsu, resolve, or instinct instead of Zangetsu awakening.

you realy should read the rest because we crushed the theory that Rukia gave Ichigo her zanpaktou



too much evidence states otherwise

[spaZ]

Really you crush the theory?

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7264/bleach010142.png
Theres Rukias sword before she gave her powers to ichigo on the first chapter.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3357/bleachcover01.jpg
Than ichigo in a cover with the sword with the exact same hilt. And I am pretty sure its also the same color.

It was never his sword to begin with.

[son_michael]

Really you crush the theory?

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7264/bleach010142.png
Theres Rukias sword before she gave her powers to ichigo on the first chapter.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3357/bleachcover01.jpg
Than ichigo in a cover with the sword with the exact same hilt. And I am pretty sure its also the same color.

It was never his sword to begin with.



did you read the last 2 or 3 pages?{of this thread}



its obvious that zanpaktou was not rukia's. why would Ichigo still have Rukia's sword after he himself turned into a shinigami after Byakuya destroyed the powers rukia gave him?
Zangetsu said he was always calling out to ichigo yet he never heard him



Obviously borrowing rukia's power was not getting her exact powers such as her shikai and what not:notrust she even says she was expecting her powers to return while Ichigo was using her powers to be a shinigami


so yes as far as I'm concerned we crushed the theory

[Deathbringerpt]

Like posters have said in this thread already, Ichigo´s swrod is in constant Shikai shape, it doesn´t have a normal form per se. However since Zangetsu got out of Ichigo, the sword can´t used any of it´s abilities.

Which is just 1.

[Shadowace]

I'm sure some must have shown this but his sword is the same as his dads not rukia's

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/02/

Anyways his swords shape permanently changed when it went shikai. With Zangetsu gone is just an over sized sword with no special powers.

[tari101190]

it didn't make sense to me b4, and i have a few points to show why, but something is also making me think it makes sense a little. and it has nothin to do with rukia.

arguement against ichigo's shikai making sense
1. rukia's sword hilt pattern is inverted by the way (meaning the patterns face the other way like a mirror image) and ichigo's has tassles. it is only coincidence that they are similar.

2. rukia never gave ichigo sode no shirayuki. she gave ichigo her shinigami type power, to forcefully give ichigo shinigami powers. meaning as far as she knew, he didn't have zangetsu. but by doing what she did, she almost 'created' zangetsu for him. once byakuya 'sealed' up those powers, urahara revealed ichigo had his own shinigami powers all along so he could awaken zangetsu again.

3. shinigami powers are manifested through a zanpakutou. hollow powers are manifested by a monsterous beast like body. without your zanpakutou spirit to release, you cannot release your sword or keep it released. a released sword is only released cos the zanpakutou spirit is releasing it's power through the sword. no spirit, not released form.

4. ichigo's hollow is a hollow. not a zanpakutou spirit. a hollow. is is 'apart' of zangetsu only cos they are both apart of ichigo's 'inner soul'. when ichigo releases his hollow powers he transforms into a beast-like body. that's what hollow powers do. they do not release zanpakutou.

ichigo shouldn't have a released zanpakutou anymore cos there is no zanpakutou spirit to be released, and hollow spirits arn't shinigami powers to be released through a sword in 'that' way.

even arrancar who release their hollow powers through swords still gain hollow beast forms. they method of releasing the hollow is different, but they are still releasing their hollow so it has the same result.

points for ichigo's shikai making sense
now this is where it gets confusing. arrancar sealed their hollow powers into their zanpakutou. ichigo sealed zangetsu into his zanpakuto, not his hollow. but his hollow is apart of his inner soul which is sealed into a zanpakutou.

also, b4 ichigo could control the hollow, it manifested on it's own each time ichigo released more of zangetsu's powers (see renji, zaraki and byakuya fights). so that means his hollow may be apart of his zanpakutou now, whether zangetsu is their or not.

i'm confused.

[PDQ]

ichigo's hollow is a hollow. not a zanpakutou spirit. a hollow. is is 'apart' of zangetsu only cos they are both apart of ichigo's 'inner soul'. when ichigo releases his hollow powers he transforms into a beast-like body. that's what hollow powers do. they do not release zanpakutou.

I disagree, he didn't just say he was a part of Zangetsu, he said he was zangetsu, they were originally one being. If Zangetsu is distinct enough of a soul to be separated, then Shirosaki would've said that he's like Zangetsu, rather than BEING zangetsu.

Anyways, it actually doesn't make sense that Ichigo doesn't have his original sword. That wasn't Sode no Shirayuki for the reasons mentioned earlier in addition to Rukia actually still having Sode no Shirayuki when, if it had transferred as well, it would've been destroyed by Byakuya.

And the argument that Shirosaki is maintaining his shikai doesn't work because Shirosaki technically shouldn't be still in him anyways because he IS Zangetsu, the escaped spirit, so rather, Zangetsu should be the one turning into a hollow/shirosaki.

[Legend]

That is zangetsu's most basic form.

[soran]

let me break this off

shirosaki = zangetsu

and that whole rukia thing

im guessing thats just because its not rukias sword anymore

[Toffeeman]

Im guessing his zanpaktou just permanently changed shape when he first released Zangetsu? Would be the simplest way to explain it..

[soran]

or it could be that whats the point in going back yo regular if they are both the same size

[Warsaint777]

So in the most recent episode, even, when Ichigo relied solely on his Hollow-self's powers exclusively, I still think the writers missed a golden opportunity to turn Ichigo's sword white and justify his using shikai without Zangetsu. But again, whatever, because this filler still continues to be righteous anyway. :D

[tallahassee2compton]

okay so the question is: why is it that ichigo's zangetsu did not change shape when zangetsu himself left the blade?
the four reasons im hearing the most are:
1. doesnt have a sealed form
a perfectly logical idea except that that's wrong. the sealed form most definitely IS the larger katana he was using before. that whole thing that he was using sode no shirayuki is proly wrong too since rukia was mos def a shinigami even after she gave a lot of her powers to ichigo (eg. kido, hollow phone, she also wasn't a plus in her spirit form). when ichigo emerged from the hole in urahara's shop he too was no longer a plus since there was no chain and he had shinigami clothing. therefore the sword he was using was the sword byakuya broke and was linked to him. ichigo with spiritual energy implies zangetsu.
2. wont/cant go back
i mean i guess but most people in the world of bleach try to say that there definitely is a difference between sealed and shikai. especially with all the release commands going round. i remember thinking how cool it would be for the last scene in the anime to have ichigo uttering a release command for zangetsu. the spirit of zangetsu and ichigo's connection to him makes the chopper we love. if zangetsu leaves the sword and the connection is shattered then it would make sense that the sword returns to oversize whether or not the sword is completely broken. even then though the sword appeared broken in that episode because he had no connection to it right? he couldnt control his spiritual abilities and thus his soul's sword looked feeble. in the orld of bleach this reason wouldnt really fly.
3. shiro is zangetsu
FALSE. he is not zangetsu. he is a hollow. specifically he is the hollow created when plus ichigo's soul chain shattered just before his shinigamification was complete. shirosaki said "i am zangetsu" because at the time he was competing for dominance in ichigo's soul in an attempt to completely take over. but recently ichigo has used shirosaki's abilities much like he has zangetsu's (as shown when he full hollowed in the manga and told ishida that he must protect inoue). with zangetsu gone, shirosaki doesnt have the abilities of zangetsu anymore (or at least shouldnt). thus the only abilites ichigo SHOULD have are his hollow ones, but with a shingami foundation, i.e. the oversized katana.
4. who cares/dont worry about it/ they forgot
my only problem with these is that i do care and i actually really want to know. kubo is involved in all character designs, especially the personal relationships between the shinigami and their zanpakto spirits. it makes sense that he would want the anime to remain faithful to the VERY FIRST VOLUME OF BLEACH where ichigo uses the oversize. he would care and thus, as a fan, i care.
when a shinigami gains enough spiritual power, he HAS to lock away a portion of that power away inside a sword. the only way to untap that power is by learning the name of the manifestation of his spiritual energy that lies within the sword. the sword is an extension of his soul. by learning the name of his spirit, the shingami gains the abilities of the spirit (ichigo gains the excellent swordsmanship, kuchiki and hitsugaya gain ice abilities). without a spirit there can be no extra-spiritual abilites and thus the sword cannot change shape. therefore ichigo SHOULD be using his oversized katana
i know thats a stupid answer: here's hoping someone from the show pops in my room and tells me whats what

[son_michael]

@ tallahassee2compton


there's only 2 explanations

1. Zangetsu's power comes from Ichigo and Zangetsu himself is simply an Avatar of Ichigo's power so theoretically Ichigo can use Zangetsu's power when Zangetsu's Not there because Zangetsu's power was always his power in the first place. This explains why Renji was able to use his shikai against Zabimaru when Zabimaru was not in his sword...because zabimaru is simply an avatar of the power renji already had


2. Shirosaki allows Ichigo to use Zangetsu's power= if you recall there was a scene where Zangetsu allowed shirosaki to rejoin with Zangetsu...in this scene shirosaki literally breaks down into black paricles and is absorbed inside the avatar of zangetsu.....this implies shirosaki while he is a hollow he is indeed some how connected or fused to zangestu. Furthermore when Ichigo learns new power from Zangetsu Shiro saki ALWAYS learns it as well. This further indicates they are not seperate beings inside Ichigo,when Ichigo learned to use Bankai Shiro saki came out and showed Ichigo that he had MASTERED zangetsu's Bankai. Therefore we can conclude that Shiro Saki has access to Zangetsu's power and its logical to assume even without zangetsu in Ichigo's body he still retains a connection to Zangetsu's power or he even though he is a hollow he some how became a part of zangetsu and can use a portion of zangetsu's power

[Aisukaunta]

i thought it was pretty simple.

Shirosaki is in ichigo. so the shikai stayed the same.
He couldn't go bankai because it's the materalization of the zanpakuto (which the oldman isn't there.)

He could turn fully hollow and vaizard mode though because Shirosaki still resides within.

[Wintrale]

Well, I think it should be obvious by now... All Shinigami seem capable of using Shikai, even without their Zanpakuto inside of them - Ichigo, Renji and Ikkaku have all used Shikai - it seems that all you need is the resolve to beat down your Zanpakuto Spirit.

[tallahassee2compton]

@son michael

yo that makes a lot of sense...and you could even take that a step further
since ichigo has so much natural spiritual energy, he doesnt need to call on it or collect it in times of crises like renji or ikkaku. since zangetsu's just the avatar for his overflowing abilities, without zangetsu, the abilities would just keep overflowing and continue to manifest themselves

thanks a lot!