Hamas rejects Israel peace vision

[Diceman]

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal has dismissed the terms for a demilitarised state laid out by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Mr Netanyahu offered "merely self-governance under the name of a country," Mr Meshaal said.
Speaking in Damascus, he described the demand that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state as "racist".
But he hailed what he said was "new language" towards Hamas from US President Barack Obama.
The exiled leader of the Palestinian militant Islamist movement, which backs attacks on Israel, was speaking in the wake of key address by both Mr Obama and Mr Netanyahu.
Minimum demands
The US regards Hamas as a terrorist organisation and does not deal with it, but Mr Obama acknowledged that many Palestinians support the group.
Mr Netanyahu bowed to heavy US pressure to endorse the principle of a Palestinian state, but said it must have no military, no control of its air space and must recognise Israel as a Jewish state.
"The enemy's leaders call for a so-called Jewish state is a racist demand that is no different from calls by Italian Fascists and Hitler's Nazism," Mr Meshaal said.
He reiterated Hamas's position that its "minimum demands" are "the establishment of a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital, that has full sovereignty on the borders of 4 June 1967... the removal of all settlements and the achievement of the right of return".
In his speech two weeks ago, Mr Netanyahu said Jerusalem should be the undivided capital of Israel and made clear that he wished to continue limited settlement activity in the West Bank and that he rejected the right Palestinian refugees want to return to Israel.
Mr Meshaal also welcomed Mr Obama's recent comments.
"We value Obama's new language towards Hamas. It is a first step in the right direction toward direct talks with no conditions," he said.
The international community is demanding that Hamas renounce violence and recognise Israel before it will hold direct talks with the group, which controls Gaza.
Unity talks to end the feud between Hamas and the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority have so far failed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8120405.stm

[The Pink Ninja]

Israel maybe, maybe might accept a limited number of "Returnees" (The few who say they would actually like to move) with some set conditions, but a full right to unlimited immigration? No gonna happen.

And while I see their point vise ve sovereignty nothing coming from Hamas is credible until they recognise Israel. Do that first guys, otherwise there's no point talking to people dedicated to destroying one of the negotiating parties.

[iander]

Hamas needs to agree with the Arab Peace Plan which would give them everything they are asking for except right of return (which they could possibly negotiate for a limited right after they have their own state).

Also, this might be the first time I've heard Hamas say something positive about a US president that I can remember.

[The Pink Ninja]

Hamas are just playing the game.

As soon as Obama doesn't go along they'll throw their toys out of the pram and bash him with the best of them.

[Megaharrison]

Not a surprise. Hamas has long maintained that they'll never make peace with Israel no matter what (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079063.html). They've attempted to publicly soften their tone lately as a way to A.) Take advantage of Obama, B.) Take advantage of international hatred of Bibi, and C.) Post-Cast Lead they had their military wing broken and have been forced to halt attacks on Israel.

[Sesshomaru]

Not a surprise. Hamas has long maintained that they'll never make peace with Israel no matter what (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079063.html).

Give them fair rights and they might just do that.

[Mael]

Give them fair rights and they might just do that.

Stop firing Kushetkas into civilian areas and making stupid children's programming about killing Jews and "liberating" Palestine, and Israel might just do that.

[Megaharrison]

Give them fair rights and they might just do that.

What can we give the government of Gaza in terms of rights? We've completely disengaged from Gaza and there is not a single IDF personnel or settler there.

You're completely ignoring regional circumstances, including the fact Hamas is a proxy of Iran or the fact their most basic ideology is the total eradication of Israel due to it being their religious duty. Human rights won't change either of these.

What, do you think Hamas is some humanitarian organization that cares about the rights of Palestinians? If it did, it wouldn't be massacring political opposition in Gaza now would it?

Not to mention...They said no matter what. This means that giving them "fair rights" would in fact lead to no change in policy.

So yeah, horrifically unrealistic.

[martryn]

Fuck what Hamas rejects. I reject Hamas. They can suck the shit out of my ass for all I care.

[Agmaster]

Fuck what Hamas rejects. I reject Hamas. They can suck the shit out of my ass for all I care.
There comes a time when crassness becomes art. That line shows me that time.

[Karn of Zeon]

/waiting for Lezard to come up with some anti-Israel Bullshit and flame him.

[Sesshomaru]

What can we give the government of Gaza in terms of rights? We've completely disengaged from Gaza and there is not a single IDF personnel or settler there.

Disengage from Palestine. Stop treating it as a colony.


You're completely ignoring regional circumstances, including the fact Hamas is a proxy of Iran or the fact their most basic ideology is the total eradication of Israel due to it being their religious duty. Human rights won't change either of these.



There is absolutely no religious duty in obtaining Israel what so ever. Its more like, "you took my thing, now I want it back". Any human, regardless of
religion would want the same, its nothing more than bitterness towards the other party.



What, do you think Hamas is some humanitarian organization that cares about the rights of Palestinians? If it did, it wouldn't be massacring political opposition in Gaza now would it?



Like always, whenever I try to defend Palestine, you accuse me of being an Hamas follower. Forget Hamas for once will you.



Not to mention...They said no matter what. This means that giving them "fair rights" would in fact lead to no change in policy.

So yeah, horrifically unrealistic.

It is only horribly unrealistic because the "no matter what" part is not only stated by Palestine, but is also thought by Israel. Its just that Israel wants to appear far more humane than it actually is.

Stop firing Kushetkas into civilian areas and making stupid children's programming about killing Jews and "liberating" Palestine, and Israel might just do that.

Even if that happened, Israel wouldn't change its policy.

[Megaharrison]

Disengage from Palestine. Stop treating it as a colony.

That will not stop Hamas. They will never recognize us no matter what, according to their own words.

The evidence for this is Gaza. Complete disengagement and look what happens. More attacks on Israel, and Palestinians massacring each other in the streets.



There is absolutely no religious duty in obtaining Israel what so ever. Its more like, "you took my thing, now I want it back". Any human, regardless of
religion would want the same, its nothing more than bitterness towards the other party.

Hamas is a religious party. Their very name is an acronym for the "Islamic Resistance Movement". Their charter makes it very clear they view this as a religious war.

Like always, whenever I try to defend Palestine, you accuse me of being an Hamas follower. Forget Hamas for once will you.

Lol, ridiculous. You expect me to "forget" the primary instigator of violence against Israel when discussing the Israeli-Arab conflict? Right.

No, I will not forget Hamas. To forget Hamas and even try to discuss this is beyond moronic and ignores basic realities

Oh and I never accused you of being an Hamas supporter. No idea where you got that.

It is only horribly unrealistic because the "no matter what" part is not only stated by Palestine, but is also thought by Israel. Its just that Israel wants to appear far more humane than it actually is.

Israel has not said it will never recognize a Palestinian state no matter what. Hamas has. If we had the same mindset at Hamas there wouldn't even be any Pali's left. This entire conflicts length is based upon the mercies of Israel, so to assume Israel intends to wipe them all out is silly.

Even if that happened, Israel wouldn't change its policy.

Incorrect, as a lull in violence led to the Gaza withdrawal

[Sesshomaru]

That will not stop Hamas. They will never recognize us no matter what, according to their own words.


That is not their, but your fault. Had Israel come up with a decent and fair strategy back in 47, none of this would have been happened. Just because you started it, doesn't mean they have to end it. Although it would be in their favor to do so. However, the lives they have lived and the mindset they have gained as a result of living through war is not a very nice one. This happens to humans who have seen violence all their lives. Although poverty and violence being the cause, they saw solace in religion, that is why it is blamed.



Lol, ridiculous. You expect me to "forget" the primary instigator of violence against Israel when discussing the Israeli-Arab conflict? Right.

No, I will not forget Hamas. To forget Hamas and even try to discuss this is beyond moronic and ignores basic realities



I guess Israel will never let Hamas die, since it is them which give Israel the excuse of taking over other territory.



Israel has not said it will never recognize a Palestinian state no matter what. Hamas has. If we had the same mindset at Hamas there wouldn't even be any Pali's left. This entire conflicts length is based upon the mercies of Israel, so to assume Israel intends to wipe them all out is silly.



Look at your lifestyle and compare it to theirs. Your mind set is far worse. Hamas was nothing more but a meager response to your cruel mindset.

[Megaharrison]

That is not their, but your fault. Had Israel come up with a decent and fair strategy back in 47, none of this would have been happened. Just because you started it, doesn't mean they have to end it. Although it would be in their favor to do so. However, the lives they have lived and the mindset they have gained as a result of living through war is not a very nice one. This happens to humans who have seen violence all their lives. Although poverty and violence being the cause, they saw solace in religion, that is why it is blamed.

So you basically have absolutely no solution and acknowledge that Hamas will never recognize Israel, thus acknowledging that your original point that they would is now incorrect? Good to hear, though sob stories won't get us anywhere.



I guess Israel will never let Hamas die, since it is them which give Israel the excuse of taking over other territory.

Yes, clearly Israel loves to spend millions of dollars, the lives of its citizens, and international hassle to demolish people who we covertly support. Not to mention those thousands of rockets on our civilians must be yet another elaborate trick. Holograms I tell you!

Seriously, is everything in life one giant conspiracy to you? Every thread is you with some new information of x nefarious scheme.

Look at your lifestyle and compare it to theirs. Your mind set is far worse. Hamas was nothing more but a meager response to your cruel mindset.

Groups like Hamas existed back in the 40's when we were both in poverty. Though in any regard we're not going to make ourselves poor just to make these people happy, so you don't seem to have any real point again.

All I see here is your concession that Hamas won't change its policies as now you're trying to explain why they won't. Which is good I suppose.

[Jin-E]

That will not stop Hamas. They will never recognize us no matter what, according to their own words.

The evidence for this is Gaza. Complete disengagement and look what happens. More attacks on Israel, and Palestinians massacring each other in the streets.

What do you say to people that claim that Israel is still de facto occupying Gaza since they control every borderline(excluding the Rafah crossing) and control the Airspace and Territorial waters surrounding it?

That is not their, but your fault. Had Israel come up with a decent and fair strategy back in 47, none of this would have been happened. Just because you started it, doesn't mean they have to end it. Although it would be in their favor to do so. However, the lives they have lived and the mindset they have gained as a result of living through war is not a very nice one. This happens to humans who have seen violence all their lives. Although poverty and violence being the cause, they saw solace in religion, that is why it is blamed.

Thats turning things completely on the head. It was the Palestinians(and the Arabian nations in general) in general that refused to compromise on any issue. Israel could simply have claimed two city blocks in downtown Tel Aviv and named it "Israel" and they would have still declared war.

Tell me then, what could Israel have done in 1947-48 to appease the Arabs and still survive as a state? Nothing, because fulfilling one demand would ultimately eliminate the other.

[Megaharrison]

What do you say to people that claim that Israel is still de facto occupying Gaza since they control every borderline(excluding the Rafah crossing) and control the Airspace and Territorial waters surrounding it?

I would say that those are responses to Hamas policies, such as cross-border attacks on Israel and rocket fire. Encircling the enemy stronghold and resource denial is a basic military strategy. Are we supposed to give an area that fires thousands of rockets at us complete free access? Of course not.

If Hamas does not like being blockaded then they should in fact undertake unnecessary policy measures that lead to it. Namely, insisting to wage their ridiculous little adventure against Israel. Note that we did not blockade Gaza until it came to power. I wonder what that indicates?

And "excluding Rafah" is a pretty big fucking deal. Everybody forgets the Gypos are in this too. I've never really understood why we have to stop our defensive blockade and give Hamas more cement when Mubarak could open the crossing at any time they wanted.

[Sesshomaru]

So you basically have absolutely no solution and acknowledge that Hamas will never recognize Israel, thus acknowledging that your original point that they would is now incorrect? Good to hear, though sob stories won't get us anywhere.


The way you dealt with Palestine created Hamas. Hamas will never recognize you but perhaps other people just might. You already caused Hamas to hate you, and will probably do the same thing with other parties by handing over shitty little proposals and treaties.



Yes, clearly Israel loves to spend millions of dollars, the lives of its citizens, and international hassle to demolish people who we covertly support. Not to mention those thousands of rockets on our civilians must be yet another elaborate trick. Holograms I tell you!

Seriously, is everything in life one giant conspiracy to you? Every thread is you with some new information of x nefarious scheme.



I didn't say anything about supporting. Probably just babble some bullshit rumors in order to win the media. :iria



Groups like Hamas existed back in the 40's when we were both in poverty. Though in any regard we're not going to make ourselves poor just to make these people happy, so you don't seem to have any real point again.



Your just diverting my point. We are talking about Hamas not "Groups like Hamas" (they probably existed but probably not with the same mindset as they have now). Hamas was created as a direct consequence of your actions. They have seen their relatives, friends and fellow citizens die, it is obvious why they possess the mindset they have now.


All I see here is your concession that Hamas won't change its policies as now you're trying to explain why they won't. Which is good I suppose.

Well the explanation is more important than their actions since you are the ones who caused it.