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hcheng02
06-10-2009, 06:34 PM
Recently found an interesting article from the Economist. Apparently, people are altruistic because they are militaristic, and cultured because they are common. At least that is the message of a couple of new studies

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13776964

Blood and treasure
Jun 4th 2009

TWO of the oddest things about people are morality and culture. Neither is unique to humans, but Homo sapiens has both in an abundance missing from other species. Indeed, that abundance—of concern for the well-being of others, (even unrelated others), and of finely crafted material objects both useful and ornamental—is seen by many as the mark of man, as what distinguishes humanity from mere beasts.

How these human traits evolved is controversial. But two papers in this week’s Science may throw light on the process. In one, Samuel Bowles of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico fleshes out his paradoxical theory that much of human virtue was forged in the crucible of war. Comrades in arms, he believes, become comrades in other things, too.

In the other paper, Mark Thomas and his colleagues at University College, London, suggest that cultural sophistication depends on more than just the evolution of intelligence. It also requires a dense population. If correct, this would explain some puzzling features of the archaeological record that have hitherto been put down to the arbitrary nature of what has survived to the present and what has not.

Dr Bowles’s argument starts in an obscure cranny of evolutionary theory called group selection. This suggests that groups of collaborative individuals will often do better than groups of selfish ones, and thus prosper at their expense. It is therefore no surprise, according to group-selectionists, that individuals might be genetically predisposed to act in self-sacrificial ways.

This good-of-the-group argument was widely believed until the 1960s, when it was subject to rigorous scrutiny and found wanting. The new theory does not pitch groups against groups, or even individuals against individuals, but genes against genes. It does not disallow altruistic behaviour, but requires that this evolve in a way that promotes the interest of a particular gene—for example by helping close relatives who might also harbour the gene in question. The “selfish gene” analysis, so called after a book by Richard Dawkins, makes good-of-the-group outcomes almost impossible to achieve.

War and peace

A few researchers, of whom Dr Bowles is one, have been unwilling to give up on group selection completely. They note the word “almost” in the argument above and contend that humans, with their high intelligence and possession of language, and their tendency to live in small, tightly knit groups, might be exceptional. They also think people could be subject to a form of group selection that is genetically selfish.

Dr Bowles has focused the argument on war, since it is both highly collaborative and often genetically terminal for the losers. In his latest paper he puts some numbers on the idea. He looks at the data, plugs them into a mathematical model of his devising and finds a pleasing outcome.

To gather his data, Dr Bowles trawled through ethnographic and archaeological evidence about warfare between groups of hunter-gatherers. This is rarely war in the modern sense of planned campaigns. It is more a matter of raids, ambushes and fights between groups who have met accidentally. It is, nevertheless, quite lethal. Dr Bowles identified eight ethnographic and 15 archaeological studies that met his criteria of reliability and abundance of data. They suggest that 12-16% of mortality is the result of such low-level warfare. This is a figure much higher than, for example, the mortality caused in Europe by two world wars, and is certainly enough to drive evolution. But the question remained of whether it could drive group selection.

It was to test that idea that Dr Bowles devised his model. Although it pitches group against group, it is strictly based on the idea of selfish genes. It looks at the benefit to a notional gene that promotes self-sacrifice. The question is, does such a gene do well if individuals having it belong to a group that takes over the territory and resources of a similar, neighbouring group, but at the risk of some of those individuals losing their life in the process? What is the maximum self-sacrificial cost that can evolve in these circumstances?

In the absence of war, a gene imposing a self-sacrificial cost of as little as 3% in forgone reproduction would drop from 90% to 10% of the population in 150 generations. Dr Bowles’s model, however, predicts that much higher levels of self-sacrifice—up to 13% in one case—could be sustained if warfare were brought into the equation. This, he contends, allows the evolution of collaborative, altruistic traits that would not otherwise be possible. Moreover, although warfare is an extreme example, other, less martial forms of self sacrifice may have similar group-strengthening virtues.

Dr Thomas and his colleagues also rely on a mathematical model. They are trying to explain the pattern of apparent false-starts to modern human culture. The species is now believed to have emerged 150,000-200,000 years ago in Africa and to have begun spreading to the rest of the world about 60,000 years ago. But signs of modern culture, such as shell beads for necklaces, the use of pigments and delicate, sophisticated tools like bone harpoons, do not appear until 90,000 years ago. They then disappear, before popping up again (and also sometimes disappearing), until they really get going around 35,000 years ago in Europe.

The team drew on an earlier insight that it requires a certain number of people to maintain skills and knowledge in a population. Below this level, random effects can be important. The probability of useful inventions being made is low and if only a few have the skills to fabricate the new inventions, they may die without having passed on their knowledge.

In their model, Dr Thomas and his colleagues divided a simulated world into regions with different densities of human groups. Individuals in these groups had certain “skills”, each with an associated degree of complexity. Such skills could be passed on, more or less faithfully, thus yielding an average level of skills that could vary over time. The groups could also exchange skills.

The model suggested that once more than about 50 groups were in contact with one another, the complexity of skills that could be maintained did not increase as the number of groups increased. Rather, it was population density that turned out to be the key to cultural sophistication. The more people there were, the more exchange there was between groups and the richer the culture of each group became.

Dr Thomas therefore suggests that the reason there is so little sign of culture until 90,000 years ago is that there were not enough people to support it. It is at this point that a couple of places in Africa—one in the southernmost tip of the continent and one in eastern Congo—yield signs of jewellery, art and modern weapons. But then they go away again. That, Dr Thomas suggests, corresponds with a period when human numbers shrank. Climate data provides evidence this shrinkage did happen.

According to Dr Thomas, therefore, culture was not invented once, when people had become clever enough, and then gradually built up into the edifice it is today. Rather, it came and went as the population waxed and waned. Since the invention of agriculture, of course, the population has done nothing but wax. The consequences are all around you.

Shinigami Perv
06-10-2009, 06:45 PM
The best theory on this is that the most sociable people are empathetic, and that they are more likely to have children. Therefore the human race has become kinder and gentler over the millennia.

The most violent/antisocial tend to be criminals or soldiers, so their inherently antipathetic genes get bred out and create a better world.

Mael
06-10-2009, 06:58 PM
The best theory on this is that the most sociable people are empathetic, and that they are more likely to have children. Therefore the human race has become kinder and gentler over the millennia.

The most violent/antisocial tend to be criminals or soldiers, so their inherently antipathetic genes get bred out and create a better world.

......AHEM!

Megaharrison
06-10-2009, 06:59 PM
......AHEM!

You have no excuse, crazy man. At least I was conscripted :mad

Though the fact I'm going professional then into private contracting after that is clearly just a manipulated by the military industrial process on my poor little brain. :(

LouDAgreat
06-10-2009, 07:03 PM
The best theory on this is that the most sociable people are empathetic, and that they are more likely to have children. Therefore the human race has become kinder and gentler over the millennia.

Really? I want a boatload of children like 45...nah more like 6-13 (seriously). By those standards I will be empathetic and will give generous aid to the poor. Marvelous. :quite

:LOS

Mael
06-10-2009, 07:07 PM
You have no excuse, crazy man. At least I was conscripted :mad

Though the fact I'm going professional then into private contracting after that is clearly just a manipulated by the military industrial process on my poor little brain. :(

Bitch I still volunteered...and I'm still benevolent.

LouDAgreat
06-10-2009, 07:08 PM
Bitch I still volunteered...and I'm still benevolent.

You are a Boston Redsox fan...that automatically cancels out your benevolence. :pek

Shinigami Perv
06-10-2009, 07:18 PM
Bitch I still volunteered...and I'm still benevolent.

Well, it's really not about being benevolent or malevolent; it's about whether or not you can empathize. The more empathy, the more respect for other people and thus the basis for the rule of law.

No offense, but the soldiers I see are not very empathetic, most seem pretty antisocial and violent. Every time I see cheering for a kill, whether it be hunting or a terrorist, I inwardly smirk at the proof of this theory.

Darklyre
06-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Well, it's really not about being benevolent or malevolent; it's about whether or not you can empathize. The more empathy, the more respect for other people and thus the basis for the rule of law.

No offense, but the soldiers I see are not very empathetic, most seem pretty antisocial and violent. Every time I see cheering for a kill, whether it be hunting or a terrorist, I inwardly smirk at the proof of this theory.

It's generally satisfaction over a victory than joy at killing.

Shinigami Perv
06-10-2009, 07:25 PM
It's generally satisfaction over a victory than joy at killing.

Could be; I've never experienced this myself. I don't kill animals, I don't kill the occasional spider I find (just catch and release).

According to this theory, I've evolved. :dance

Megaharrison
06-10-2009, 07:26 PM
No offense, but the soldiers I see are not very empathetic, most seem pretty antisocial and violent. Every time I see cheering for a kill, whether it be hunting or a terrorist, I inwardly smirk at the proof of this theory.

It has to do with a mixture of fear and adrenaline combined a group mentality. Being fired at is not a very fun experience, and when that event is over great relief and satisfaction is expressed. Especially since the people just killed are those who were just trying to kill you.

Also, the mindset of "OMG WE JUST KILLED ANOTHER HUMAN BEING GAI'S" won't get you very far in a warzone. Empathy itself is a hazardous mindset to have there under many circumstances.

Though, I find it odd you're pontificating empathy for other human beings when you've mocked civilians coming under rocket fire in the past.

Shinigami Perv
06-10-2009, 07:34 PM
It has to do with a mixture of fear and adrenaline combined a group mentality. Being fired at is not a very fun experience, and when that event is over great relief and satisfaction is expressed. Especially since the people just killed are those who were just trying to kill you.

I've no experience with it at all. I've fired a gun, but never at a living thing. I've no desire to, I guess. There's really no reason to anymore, since humanity has evolved beyond needing hunters.

Also, the mindset of "OMG WE JUST KILLED ANOTHER HUMAN BEING GAI'S" won't get you very far in a warzone. Empathy itself is a hazardous mindset to have there under many circumstances.

I've no desire to be in a warzone, nor to send anyone there. It seems so pointless. The people doing the fighting are mostly uneducated minimum wage earners whose violent tendencies can be channeled, and many of which would be filling our prisons instead of filling out the uniforms otherwise.

Though, I find it odd you're pontificating empathy for other human beings when you've mocked civilians coming under rocket fire in the past.

Not necessarily the civilians themselves, or anyone who experiences trauma, only the exaggerated danger from such activities (I troll a lot anyway :awesome you should know this). If I wanted people to suffer, why would I even want a solution for ME peace?

vivEnergy
06-10-2009, 07:43 PM
While i'm on a roll ...

empathy != compassion

Almost anyone can know when someone feel sad or happy or whatever emotion, that's called empathy. It doesn't mean you'll just fucking kill torture rape them anyway, actually knowing how they would feel might give you pleasure (u sadist !).

Thus WalkingMaelstrom is actually compassionate toward other because he wants to help them, or if he is a sadist he likes to kill other, or if he lacks empathy he is just a tool :zaru

Empathy certainly does not guarantee benevolence.

impersonal
06-10-2009, 07:43 PM
Recently found an interesting article from the Economist. Apparently, people are altruistic because they are militaristic, and cultured because they are common. At least that is the message of a couple of new studies

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13776964

That sounds like common knowledge finally getting proven. Altruism appeared because a little self sacrifice helps the group, in war or mere hunting (I find it surprising that the author puts so much stress on war, when many other things can require self-sacrifice for the benefit of the group), sophisticated culture appears when people are numerous enough to divide tasks and specialize... ...I'm not impressed :hmpf

Vom Osten
06-10-2009, 08:10 PM
I've no experience with it at all. I've fired a gun, but never at a living thing. I've no desire to, I guess. There's really no reason to anymore, since humanity has evolved beyond needing hunters.

Not really.



I've no desire to be in a warzone, nor to send anyone there. It seems so pointless. The people doing the fighting are mostly uneducated minimum wage earners whose violent tendencies can be channeled, and many of which would be filling our prisons instead of filling out the uniforms otherwise.

Its not pointless when your and your loved ones (and your country) survival is on the line. There is such thing as nessessary war, and to call all soldiers uneducated minimum wage earners is simply ridiculous. There are many reasons people join the Army, and a good portion of recruitment comes from the middle class.

Shinigami Perv
06-10-2009, 08:25 PM
Its not pointless when your and your loved ones (and your country) survival is on the line. There is such thing as nessessary war, and to call all soldiers uneducated minimum wage earners is simply ridiculous. There are many reasons people join the Army, and a good portion of recruitment comes from the middle class.

Nice recruiting rhetoric.

I live in the US; my state's survival is never on the line. Nor is any nuclear power's state on the line.

What are they going to do? Invade us? Any war by the US at this point is unnecessary; I don't even see a plausible scenario where our state itself is threatened, and we'd need the military to save us. Basically, this whole myth that without the military we'd never survive is created by military types to justify their existence, nothing more.

dummy plug
06-10-2009, 10:27 PM
so war has other permanent wounds aside from physical ones :uwah

Vom Osten
06-11-2009, 02:08 PM
Nice recruiting rhetoric.

Not bashing the military is considered recruiting rhetoric?



I live in the US; my state's survival is never on the line. Nor is any nuclear power's state on the line.

I was thinking more of WW2, because if the Russians didn't arm every civilian that move or lost; they were all going to end up dead. There is such a thing as a justifiable and necessary war.

What are they going to do? Invade us? Any war by the US at this point is unnecessary; I don't even see a plausible scenario where our state itself is threatened, and we'd need the military to save us. Basically, this whole myth that without the military we'd never survive is created by military types to justify their existence, nothing more.

That's because you live in a world where the US and its military is number one and no one dares to set foot on our shores. You just need to realize that war is a part of human nature.

masamune1
06-11-2009, 02:52 PM
While i'm on a roll ...

empathy != compassion

Almost anyone can know when someone feel sad or happy or whatever emotion, that's called empathy. It doesn't mean you'll just fucking kill torture rape them anyway, actually knowing how they would feel might give you pleasure (u sadist !).

Thus WalkingMaelstrom is actually compassionate toward other because he wants to help them, or if he is a sadist he likes to kill other, or if he lacks empathy he is just a tool :zaru

Empathy certainly does not guarantee benevolence.

Empathy is about more than just knowing or recognising emotions. It's the capacity to understand and share in emotions. It's true that that does'nt neccesarily equal compassion but compassion almost certainly derives from empathy, and the more empathic you are the more compassionate.

You don't need empathy to recognise emotions. Psychopaths by definition (or the classic definition) are incapable of empathy but they can still identify and imitate emotions that they don't really feel, or don't feel that deeply. Your definition is too broad.

Also it's possible for most people to "turn off" their empathy at will depending on circumstances or the person in question. You might not feel any empathy for someone who murdered your family, or if you were a Nazi you might have conditioned yourself not to feel anything for the Jews.

Sadism may not be empathy because you are not sharing in the other persons emotions- you are feeling pleasure from seeing them in fear or pain. An empathic person would feel bad seeing them feel bad, though that's not quite the same as compassion since they don't neccesarily have to care about them. Sadists might have warped empathy (feeling good seeing them feel bad) but they might have no empathy at all since they might just be getting off on their own feelings of power.