Gundam 00 Raiser vs Strike Freedom Gundam [Archive]

Tranquil Fury

04-07-2009, 02:49 PM

From wiki:
GN Sword III, an upgraded version of the GN Sword of Gundam Exia. It has 3 modes: A standard mode where the sword is simply folded up, Rifle mode, in which the sword is folded and a rifle extends from the front, and Sword mode, which has the sword fully extended and with another rifle mounted above the blade. The edge of the sword is made from the same material that was derived from the material inside the GN Condensers that was first used in the GN-0000/7S 00 Gundam Seven Swords' GN Katars. However, the design has since been perfected, and as a result the cutting edge is so hot and sharp that even getting within several feet of the blade will cause a Mobile Suit's armor to start melting.

Also found something interesting on wiki:

GN-0000/7S 00 Gundam Seven Swords
A variation of the 00 Gundam that appears in the Mobile Suit Gundam 00V and resembles the Seven Sword System of Gundam Exia. It appears in the side series Mobile Suit Gundam 00V. The armaments include a GN-Short Sword II, which features a tip that is attached to a wire and can be shot out and retracted as many times needed, and a GN-Long Sword II which has an enhanced rifle mode, but a decreased rapid-fire capability and increased particle consumption compared to that of the GN-Sword II. GN-Katars are mounted on the add-on parts at both knees, a type of heat sword that has not been adopted by any Gundam so far. The cutting edges are made of a material developed from those that are used in GN condensers. As the GN particles change to heat, the heat is transferred to whatever is in contact at the time. The GN-Katars are still in their prototype stage, as the heat produced by them is much higher than the material the GN-Katars are made of can endure for at most 2 minutes. The longest sword of the Seven Swords is the GN-Buster Sword II, which is attached to the GN-Drive on the left shoulder; it is known as the GN Shield mode in its kept state. In its Shield Mode, a large multi-directional GN Field can be generated. Before the Twin Drive System was deemed fully functional, these swords were meant to be close range equipment designed for the 00 and its pilot, Setsuna F Seiei. The equipment is an offshoot of the Exia's Seven Swords System and its armaments are far superior to the Exia's swords in comparison. However, when development of the 0-Raiser became the top priority for Celestial Being's engineering staff, this equipment was abandoned and put into storage at Celestial Being's Lagrange 3 base.

MindlessFire

04-07-2009, 04:05 PM

LightMaster

04-07-2009, 04:39 PM

I don't see why not, heck even Red Frame's Geraba Straight Katana was able cut through PS armor like nothing and it isn't even lined up with GN Particles and so was Blue Frame Second L's Tactical Arms Sword. So was the Delta Astray's solid sword.

Er... the Gerbera Straight never cut through Phase Shift, and never Easily at that. The Blue Frame's sword is extremely heavy, probably broke it on merit of the extremely high amount of power it can put down, coming from a swing, and it's weight. Pretty sure the Delta Astray never cut Phase Shift with it's Solid Sword either.

MindlessFire

04-08-2009, 12:38 AM

LightMaster

04-08-2009, 01:03 AM

Read Gundam SEED: Astray R and Gundam Seed Delta Astray. Lowe's master Un No tells him that his form is wrong because the katana doesn't use it's weight to cause damage. He explains that the thin part does the cutting and must be perpendicular to target. He says that with a proper form Lowe can slice something apart with just one cut, even PS Armor. The Geraba Straight may have been broken by the Gold Frame where some would argue that the it was incomplete at the time because they couldn't original data of the smith who originally forged it. It was then reforged with rare metal found in a meteor. Delta Astray's solid sword was easily slicing up the Strike Noir in later volumes.

And you don't think the GN Sword III has a huge amount of mass to rival the Tactical Arms Sword not to mention its charged with GN Particles allowing it to literally cut through armor without effort and it can even block a beam saber, something that PS armor cannot.

I seem to remember that the Original Delta Gundam was beaten to shambles by the Noir, and then Turn Delta was used for the remainder of the series, I do know that unless the Noir popped up again after it was beaten down by the Turn Delta- there's no way that the Solid sword on the Delta came up against it again. Regardless, Uno can go suck it, until the Straight cuts PS, I call bunk, even though I love that sword.

Lastly, hell no the GN Sword III doesn't fucking rival the mass of the Tactical Arms, Tac. Arms is Longer, Wider and thicker, carries ammo and fuel, how the blast can the GN Sword III be heavier? And I never said the GN Sword III couldn't cut Phase Shift.

MindlessFire

04-08-2009, 02:52 PM

Wait the second, then why the hell are we arguing if we both agree that he GN Sword III can slice through PS armor then?

Sander RX

04-09-2009, 04:08 AM

Delta Astray slashed off Strike Noir's wings.

Darth

04-09-2009, 04:17 AM

NOTHING CAN BEAT THE STRIKE FREEDOM! :awesome:gun

Tachi67

04-09-2009, 02:26 PM

Ahem! Dematerialzation HAX >>>>>> ALL

Kuwabara99

04-09-2009, 06:14 PM

Strike Freedom all the way!

Kira cant die. He's got Flay power:P

Oujisama

04-09-2009, 11:00 PM

Meh, this isn't really fair. 00 Raiser in Trans-Am Burst mode is totally in its own tier, no other Gundam can really match it. It is simply too much ZOMG WTFPWNAGE

Kasuke Sadiki

04-09-2009, 11:22 PM

Meh, this isn't really fair. 00 Raiser in Trans-Am Burst mode is totally in its own tier, no other Gundam can really match it. It is simply too much ZOMG WTFPWNAGE

in b4 Zetta :zaru

Zetta

04-09-2009, 11:33 PM

Meh, this isn't really fair. 00 Raiser in Trans-Am Burst mode is totally in its own tier, no other Gundam can really match it. It is simply too much ZOMG WTFPWNAGE

You need to watch G Gundam, Gundam X and Turn A Gundam.

Especially Turn A Gundam. The Turn A can beat all the Gundams in Seed, Destiny and 00 combined with less than 1/5 of its total power.

I could even name less powerful. The GP 03 Dendrobrium Orchis could beat the 00 Raiser, so could the Neue Ziel.

Zeta Gundam, Nu Gundam, Double Zeta Gundam, Sazabi, Nightingale, Unicorn, Sinanju,...

And these are just the ones that could handle the 00 Raiser without even trying. There are plenty of suits that could give the 00 Raiser a fair fight and even scrape a win.

Sander RX

04-10-2009, 02:20 AM

I could even name less powerful. The GP 03 Dendrobrium Orchis could beat the 00 Raiser, so could the Neue Ziel.
How?No seriously,how?

Zetta

04-10-2009, 10:05 AM

How?No seriously,how?

The Dendrobium Orchis and Neue Ziel both have extremly powerful Ifields. They've shown they can tank an attack by the Solar System superweapon and keep fighting.

Not to mention that the output of their beam cannons have been calculated at anything between 4 and 10 times the output of Wing Zero's Double Buster Rifle.

It took the entire Federation fleet to take down the Neue Ziel and that was AFTER it shrugged off a blast from the Solar System.

MindlessFire

04-10-2009, 03:23 PM

Setsuna near the end pretty much mainly uses the GN Sword III. The I-field technology however had two major flaws, one being the requirement of a near battleship-sized reactor to create even the most basic of fields, and two, that the generator itself needed to be exposed, on the surface of the vehicle. The I-field technology does not provide any protection for the mobile armor from any form of solid weaponry or close range beam weapons that were provided a consistent power source, and provided no resistance to mobile suits that got through the energy bubble of the I-field. A basic beam saber was enough to easily disable an I-field generator.

Also 00 Raiser's size is what gives him another advantage. Being smaller, means you're a harder target to hit.

Zetta

04-10-2009, 04:43 PM

Wrong. The Neue Ziel and the Dendrobium used their giant beam sabel (boosted for extra length and power) on eachother and weren't able to break through them.

Don't compare normal I barriers to the ones on Dendrobium and Neue Ziel. The only way to hurt it would be to hit it with a close range material wapen in the generator. Which Neue Ziel did using its Claw Arms.

Not only would Setsuna not know how the Ifield works but he'd have to get close to the Dendrobium or Neue Ziel. Two MSes with enough firepower to take on the entire Earth Federation Fleet and stand a chance at winning. I don't care how Innovator he thinks he is, he can't handle that firepower.

This isn't some shitty mobile suit with a couple of little beam cannons to dodge. These are mobile suits created to take on armies.

MindlessFire

04-10-2009, 06:30 PM

Zetta

04-10-2009, 07:39 PM

OMG... First of all, the I-Field acts as has sort of a invisible bubble or sphere that negates beam attacks. But that bubble cant stop solid objects so are you have to do is have a small MS fly through that bubble, and then the MS can use its beam saber. That's how Amuro was able to take down the Big Zam with since the Gundam used its beam saber inside the radius of the I-Field.

The Big Zam is a lot langer than either Dendro or Ziel. Yet again, how does Setsuna know how an I field works? :amuse

Thats why the Neue Ziel and the Orchis's beam sabers weren't getting past each other's I-Fields because they were using them outside the I-Field's radius which the I-Field was containing the beam sabers. The Neue Ziel's claws with its beam saber deactivated was able to go through the Orchis's I-Field because its a solid weapon.
And you're repeating what I said in the last post... why?

Even then so, Setsuna would probably be using the GN Sword III which is not a beam saber. The Celestial Being's main cannon took out the entire remaining ALAWS fleet and he was the only one able to sense it and told everyone to evade it.
Uhu and that has what to do with this battle? Does 00 Raiser have feats of tanking said cannon? Is the cannon as mobile as either MSes? Is it piloted by two veteran MS pilots? All it shows is that Setsuna is not brain dead enough to stand infront of a laser canon. Great, he's not a retard. smile-big

Heck Setsuna took on the Alvatore whose main cannon was able to detonate an asteroid field, and he wasn't even at his full prime either. Quit exaggerating things.

Wing Zero's Double Buster Rifle destoyed an part of a space station big enough to end the world if it fell and casually destroyed colonies with it. Now add 4 to 10 times that power. Where's your Alvatore now?

Also, quit saying the all AU pilots suck and UC pilots are Gods. Let's face it your nothing but a UC Extremists who knows nothing about Minovnsky Tech! I bet if I hypothetically ask you who you think can take on and beat the NZ and Orchis, you'd probably only pick UC MS like the Zeta Gundam, Nu Gundam, Sazabi, V2AB, etc. etc.
Nah. Wing Zero and Epyon could do it too. Zero/Epyon's system calculation gives the same effect as newtype precog.

You know why Neue Ziel and Dendro were so strong? Because Anaval Gato and Kou Uraki arn't newtypes. They have to tank attacks instead of precogging it. All the beam cannon made after 0083 were made using the tech from Dendro's beam rifle.

As for the pilots. AU pilots do suck compared to newtypes. None of them are anything close to exceptional. Even Setsuna and Ribbons would at best be aces. That's all. Why? Because newtypes are just that overpowered.

You can hear my thoughts? Great. Now watch as I deflect your beams WITH MY MIND. Not enough? How about I disable your mech with my mind and then mindfuck you?

You're teleporting? How cute. Pity I already know where you're going to reappear before you do and I'm pointing a beam rifle at your cockpit. :amuse

MindlessFire

04-11-2009, 01:47 AM

Blaze of Glory

04-11-2009, 02:03 AM

Neither Strike nor 00 Raiser were ever close to the strongest Gundam.

AD and CE fanboys be damned.

Which is the strongest Gundam then :headscrat

MindlessFire

04-11-2009, 02:05 AM

Arguably Turn A and Turn X.

Zetta

04-11-2009, 03:56 PM

Oh please, all you're spewing is just a bunch of fanboy rubbish and you're not the first one. Newtypes obviously aren't invincible, as the animation itself has always suggested, even so you continue to deny this. Lalah, Scirocco, Haman, Maria - all powerful Newtypes, ended up dying just like any other mortal. On a more ambiguous level, even Char and Amuro couldn't escape their demise.
And all beaten by other powerful newtypes. Not to mention Lalah is so powerful that her spirit can still talk to Amuro and Char even after being dead for 15 years.

Oh and I love how wrong you are.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3310163437_18e5fc36af_o.jpg

Char aka Full Frontal has been confirmed as alive in Gundam Unicorn. There are rumours that Amuro will be making a comeback too considering Gundam Unicorn is white. White Unicorn. Amuro's nickname in the Federation was White Unicorn.

They have limited precognition under certain circumstances and a heightened awareness of their surroundings. While they can't literally see into the future except in rare instances, they're able to make accurate predictions of what's going to happen and how it will happen. Really, it's just a way of explaining why Newtype pilots can be so creative and dodge beams - weapons that are officially supposed to be traveling close to the speed of light - so easily. However, even though their minds may perceive an event occuring, their bodies are still limited by flesh and bones, and so they don't always react in time. Case in point, Amuro accidentally stabbing Lalah probably wouldn't have happened if he reacted fast enough. Another limitation that's explicitly mentioned is the mobile suit itself, which may not be able to keep up with the physical reflexes of the pilot, hence the magnetic coating upgrade.
Amuro at that point had still only discovered his newtype powers. I can't believe you're comparing Amuro the One Year War rookie with current Hi-Nu Gundam veteran Amuro.

Case in point: Scirocco was able to not only dodge ALL of Haman's funnels but destroy them casually. The only person in Zeta Gundam who was able to touch Scirocco in ANY form was shockingly Kamille Bidan. Not even Haman nor Char could damage him. Understand? A newtype who has mastered his power is nearly untouchable except by a superior newtype.

Also, your explanation is bullshit. Why? Because Amuro's son in the novel Beltorchika's Children (Char's Counterattack novel written by Tomino) was able to see the future, use telepathy and create a newtype shield around Amuro's Gundam during the battle... WHILE HE WAS STILL IN HIS MOTHER'S WOMB.

Understand? Newtype are just some little parlor trick like Innovators or Seed mode. They are powerful psychics that developed and mastered their powers due to constant exposure to space itself. Some are more powerful than others but if unborn children can do these feats, why can't most of the stronger ones see the future?

Answer: they can. The only way to beat a powerful newtype is by using a more powerful newtype.

Which is the strongest Gundam then :headscrat
Turn A and Turn X if the novels are canon.
In the anime, it'll be a close match between the Turn Gundams and Master and God Gundam.

MindlessFire

04-11-2009, 05:58 PM

First of all, no one's denying that Newtypes aren't powerful pilots and soldiers. The point I'm trying to make is that regardless of their amazing feats they're still human. What I was getting at is you spewing crap about how they can all instantly see into future make a move before it happens or they can easily disable and mindfry people. I'm not saying they can't do it, its just they cannot do it whenever they want.

Not all Newtypes in the shows are on the same level or even the same powers at all. A lot of newtypes have a trick that is unique to them. Most Newtypes can predict the enemy's even more so feelings in a battle but not exactly what is going to happen. It is more the pressure of an enemy. Scirroco pretty much over loaded Kamile to the point he was comatose but did not control him. As regarding to Amuro's unborn child No matter how strong a newtype may be they still need to train and get combat experience to be a better themselves and they need a MS that can keep up with them or the might end up like Katz for example. They are better then a "oldtype" of the same training and situations but even Newtypes can be over come by better training, skills, and experience. A lot of the newtype "magic" is form the technology that is made to harness and use the newtypes different abilities and not from the newtype themselves such as the Bio Sensor and Psychoframe.

Being able to predict enemy movement is something that we do see frequently however, especially among main characters like Amuro, Kamille, Judau, Seabook and Uso. Nevertheless, a good non-Newtype pilot (Yazan, Rakan, Rezin, etc) can usually react fast enough to still avoid getting hit. Likewise, a Newtype pilot doesn't always manage to dodge attacks just because they can forsee them, as seen in shows (Hamans Funnels did hit The O, but The O was heavily armored enough to shrug off the damage). Also, the official explanation for Scirocco's mind-frying ability was The O's Biosensor in Scirroco's last ditch effort before he died, similiar in the manner how Kamille used the Bio Sensor to be able to create a giant beam saber or to freeze up The O's controls and then ram it with Zeta engulfed in the Biosensor Barrier. What Kamille did appear to do was contaminate The O's Biosensor to prevent the mobile suit from moving, hence why the controls weren't responding to Scirocco and he couldn't dodge in time. Different Newtypes all have similar and also various different abilities.

Also, I find it highly doubtful, Full Frontal is most likely just an obsessive biological clone of sorts. I simply can't imagine Sunrise would bring either character back from the dead at this point, although certainly if they did, it wouldn't be just one of them. Then again, I'm just as oblivious to recent happenings in the novel as most people, so I could be wrong. One possibility that I always thought would be interesting is if Amuro's "soul" was inside Unicorn along the lines of the EXAM system from Blue Destiny.

Zetta

04-11-2009, 07:54 PM

First of all, no one's denying that Newtypes aren't powerful pilots and soldiers. The point I'm trying to make is that regardless of their amazing feats they're still human. What I was getting at is you spewing crap about how they can all instantly see into future make a move before it happens or they can easily disable and mindfry people. I'm not saying they can't do it, its just they cannot do it whenever they want.
Not all newtypes can do it obviously, just the upper tier.

Not all Newtypes in the shows are on the same level or even the same powers at all. A lot of newtypes have a trick that is unique to them. Most Newtypes can predict the enemy's even more so feelings in a battle but not exactly what is going to happen. It is more the pressure of an enemy. Scirroco pretty much over loaded Kamile to the point he was comatose but did not control him.
Retconned with the Zeta movies.

As regarding to Amuro's unborn child No matter how strong a newtype may be they still need to train and get combat experience to be a better themselves and they need a MS that can keep up with them or the might end up like Katz for example. They are better then a "oldtype" of the same training and situations but even Newtypes can be over come by better training, skills, and experience. A lot of the newtype "magic" is form the technology that is made to harness and use the newtypes different abilities and not from the newtype themselves such as the Bio Sensor and Psychoframe.
Show me a any experienced newtype getting hit by someone who isn't a newtype.

Being able to predict enemy movement is something that we do see frequently however, especially among main characters like Amuro, Kamille, Judau, Seabook and Uso. Nevertheless, a good non-Newtype pilot (Yazan, Rakan, Rezin, etc) can usually react fast enough to still avoid getting hit.
Yazan was retconned as a newtype in the Zeta movies. Not sure about the others.

Likewise, a Newtype pilot doesn't always manage to dodge attacks just because they can forsee them, as seen in shows (Hamans Funnels did hit The O, but The O was heavily armored enough to shrug off the damage). Also, the official explanation for Scirocco's mind-frying ability was The O's Biosensor in Scirroco's last ditch effort before he died, similiar in the manner how Kamille used the Bio Sensor to be able to create a giant beam saber or to freeze up The O's controls and then ram it with Zeta engulfed in the Biosensor Barrier. What Kamille did appear to do was contaminate The O's Biosensor to prevent the mobile suit from moving, hence why the controls weren't responding to Scirocco and he couldn't dodge in time. Different Newtypes all have similar and also various different abilities.
That explanation was retconned long ago and it's now due to psychic powers.
They had to do this in order explain Angel's Halo.

Also, still doesn't explain the newtype barrier that deflected Yazan's blasts in the Zeta movies.

Also, I find it highly doubtful, Full Frontal is most likely just an obsessive biological clone of sorts. I simply can't imagine Sunrise would bring either character back from the dead at this point, although certainly if they did, it wouldn't be just one of them. Then again, I'm just as oblivious to recent happenings in the novel as most people, so I could be wrong. One possibility that I always thought would be interesting is if Amuro's "soul" was inside Unicorn along the lines of the EXAM system from Blue Destiny.
It was recently confirmed. Char survived. This kinda makes Amuro's presence in the later stages mandatory. Especially with talks of manga novilization and movie.

Anyway, enough with the offtopic. Don't feel like getting in trouble today.

MindlessFire

04-11-2009, 09:10 PM

Agreed. Although not many people consider the Zeta movies to be canon since it potentially changes ZZ Gundam's storyline and even Char's Counterattack.

Zetta

04-11-2009, 09:59 PM

Agreed. Although not many people consider the Zeta movies to be canon since it potentially changes ZZ Gundam's storyline and even Char's Counterattack.

The problem with that is that Tomino himself supports the retcon and said it was the ending he should've given Zeta.

sazabi24

04-12-2009, 11:35 AM

Not all newtypes can do it obviously, just the upper tier.

Retconned with the Zeta movies.

Show me a any experienced newtype getting hit by someone who isn't a newtype.

Yazan was retconned as a newtype in the Zeta movies. Not sure about the others.

That explanation was retconned long ago and it's now due to psychic powers.
They had to do this in order explain Angel's Halo.

Also, still doesn't explain the newtype barrier that deflected Yazan's blasts in the Zeta movies.

It was recently confirmed. Char survived. This kinda makes Amuro's presence in the later stages mandatory. Especially with talks of manga novilization and movie.

Anyway, enough with the offtopic. Don't feel like getting in trouble today.

char is alive!?!?!?!?!?! wtf!?!!??!!??!!?!!

UC is going to degenerate into Gundam Seed Destiny!!!!

MindlessFire

04-12-2009, 03:16 PM

So where did you find the source that Full Frontal really is Char not just a clone of him?

Zetta

04-12-2009, 07:56 PM

A blog written by a guy in Japan who buys and reads the books. *shrugs* It's the best source we can find until the mangas/movie are out.

Tranquil Fury

04-13-2009, 04:58 AM

I hope Amuro is alive, he is one of my fav pilots.

Sander RX

04-13-2009, 11:32 AM

Zetta

04-13-2009, 12:25 PM

Strange I've been reading that Full Frontal is the real Char,but not the one we know and love.It was the person from whom Casval ripped "Char Aznable" off.Later Casval made the name and FF couldnt really use it anymore.I wont be surprised if we found out that FF was so obssesed with becoming a "real Char" that he even edited his own voice and looks(even the scar) to match that of Char.

P.S If that really is our Char then those bastards killed UC...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3310163437_18e5fc36af_o.jpg

He has the scar apparently. All we need to do is wait for manga/anime. Casval and real Char have different eyecolors. Still, everyone knew about Char's real identity and eyecolor during Char's Counterattack so I doubt they would make a mistake like that. I'm gonna make a seperate thread.

Helpoemer07

04-18-2009, 08:36 PM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3310163437_18e5fc36af_o.jpg

He has the scar apparently. All we need to do is wait for manga/anime. Casval and real Char have different eyecolors. Still, everyone knew about Char's real identity and eyecolor during Char's Counterattack so I doubt they would make a mistake like that. I'm gonna make a seperate thread.

Hey bro... why did it lead to UC stories? I mean... this is a Strike Freedom vs 00 Raiser Thread right? Well, I just wanted it to revert back to how it was intended to be...

I don't know much about UC Gundams... so sorry if I can't give that much credit to Nueu Ziel and Dendobrium or something like that... Hmmm... but if you ask me, while reading your posts I can't help but think that yeah you're a little over exaggerating... Let's say that they have been made to actually defeat armies... That just means that they're Gundam Technology is far more superior than that of the army's... The same is through with 00... 00 and the other Gundams are also made to withstand an entire enemy fleet! Well, although I guess they made it more realistic for them to have a hard time at them... As for combat, I'd say 00 Raiser is equipped with all necessary armaments to take on any kind of mobile suit... I don't know much about IField, but I read in Wiki that it's quite similar to GN-Fields as it can take on beams and other kinds of assaults with ease but is weak against solid attacks like Swords, etc... If that's the case, I don't really get it why the Gundams you said are A FAR FAR FAR more SUPERIOR than 00 Raiser... They may be stronger but I'd say that 00 Raiser also has a chance of winning... In a scale of 1 to 100, I'd say he has at least 40% chance of actually winning not with luck... If 00 Raiser would use Trans-Am Burst together with the GN-Field, he can quanticize himself and appear right in front of the said UC gundams and possibly bring a melee combat into action rendering both IFields and GN-Fields useless...

I read that the newtypes are quite similar to the coordinators of Seed (I'm not arguing they're equals)... I'm just saying that I have an idea how good they are... Innovators on the other hand is very much a different type of human beings... It's not clear what advantages do the Innovators really have aside from use of Quantum brainwaves and access to Veda System, but I believe it's not right to just say right away that again.. Newtypes are FAR FAR FAR more superior to Innovators... Without a solid ground to base it on, you can just assume things... although it is also a reality that Innovators, unlike Coordinators, doesn't have super human strength (haha just kidding)... They aren't stronger than ordinary humans... All i'm saying is please stop assuming things if they aren't as crystal clear as Scissors vs Rock... And besides, i learned that Setsuna can anticipate movements of the enemies and sense impending danger(spider sense... haha).

Simply put, the UC gundams you said together with the Newtypes breed MIGHT be superior to AD gundams and Innovators, BUT that is just an assumption due to present facts... Their a little better but that doesn't put the AD 00 Raiser and Setsuna FAR behind... Like I said, I believe there's a 40% chance he'll win considering the advantages of 00(like quantization, trans-am burst and infinite energy supply).

I know I know! I don't know anything about UC so I may not be a reliable post, but I just wanted to give my side in favor of AD... I read your posts and with that I formed the conclusion that they're not as superior as what you're exaggerating in your posts... Please do not take this against me... All I'm doing is posting my opinion, that's all... It ain't right to judge things like that since they are in a different league... They're in fact a different series. But I guess we all enjoy putting them into an arena for a fight... haha... :laugh

With all that was said and done, I hope you see my points... With the things you said in your posts, I think you're right in ASSUMING the said UC Gundams have a greater chance of winning than 00 and Setsuna... BUT, Like I said, just an assumption... 00 and Setsuna also has a chance of winning (around 40% in my opinion)... *not with luck*

Back to the main topic...

I'm in favor of a win for 00 Raiser against Strike Freedom... Although I believe Kira is a better pilot than Setsuna. Haha...

Well, here are their characteristics:

ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom docked with METEOR:
power supply
Ultracompact Hyper-Deuterion Nuclear Fission Reactor
armor
Phase Shift Armor/Variable Phase Shift Armor
specials
DRAGOON system
Multi-lock system (can hardly use this against 00 alone)
METEOR (Mobile Suit Embedded Tactical Enforcer)
Beam Shield Generator
HiMAT (High Mobility Aerial Tactics)

GN-0000+GNR-010 00 Raiser
power supply
GN Drive x 2
armor
E-Carbon filled with GN particles
specials
GN-Field
Trans-Am
Trans-Am burst
Quantization
Raiser Sword

--------

Now, for a calculation... both are High speed Gundams...

1.) SF equipped with a variation of Vioture Lumiere and 00 Raiser with the Trans-Am... But Trans-Am versus HiMAT, a point for 00 Raiser...
2.) Power supply, an arguably infinite "Ultracompact Hyper-Deuterion Nuclear Fission Reactor" power supply for SF, while Twin GN-Drives for 00 Raiser. Another point for 00 Raiser because it was declared a fact that GN-Particles are indeed "Infinite" sources of power while Nuclear reactors are only assumed because of its massive energy output...
3.) Armor. VPS armor for SF while E-Carbon with GN-Particles for 00 Raiser... I think this is a point on effectivity for SF. Since it uses quite a huge amount of energy, the Nuclear power satisfies it quite well. And in comparison to both armor, in battles the VPS proved more effective against assaults than E-Carbon is... A point for SF.
4.) Beam Shield Generator vs GN-Field. A clear win for 00 Raiser.

initial comparison: 3:1 in favor of 00 Raiser.

2nd Phase:
Other specials:
DRAGOON System. I'll put this against Quatization of 00 Raiser... But since 00 Raiser can't use it without Trans-Am, I'm going to put into consideration the HiMAT of SF. Hmmm... a hard one, but I believe it's more in favor for 00 Raiser. Since 00 Raiser can just disappear right before it's hit by beam rifles of the DRAGOON system.

METEOR. I'll put this as a point for SF. Why? GN-0000 00 Gundam without the GNR-010 Rasier, is only a Gundam with amazing potentials. While, SF without METEOR is proven to be a dreadful enemy already.

Multi-lock system. I will say this is quite useless against a single opponent, but considering the number of targets it can hit... Let's just make this as not just Multi-lock but HEAVY Firepower for SF, I can say it can be a bit of an advantage for SF.. so arguably, it's a point for SF. *I'm not saying 00 Raiser can't handle this, of course 00 has GN-fields but I'm just saying that this is an advantage for SF over 00 Raiser*

Trans-Am Burst. A clear victory for 00 Raiser.

Raiser Sword. Can't say as a victory for 00 Raiser since I doubt it's possible to hit SF with this. but since I used the Multi-lock as an advantage rather as an immediate win then I guess I'll just have to consider this as a point for 00 Raiser.

--------

Further results: 3:2

Now for the pilots...

Kira Yamato vs Setsuna F. Seiei

Coordinator vs Innovator

*Note* I have removed the "ultimate" and "genuine" in their titles because Kira as Ultimate Coordinator doesn't mean he's superior to any other coordinators. Why? Because the ultimate there just means he's a successful result of Genetic Engineering. This means he has acquired the traits that were planned (eye colors, skin, etc). Proof: Kira vs Athrun in Strike and Aegis. Athrun was able to come out with a tie with Kira even though he's not an "ultimate coordinator". Kira just happens to be more intelligent than ordinary coordinators and gifted with the SEED. That's all. Setsuna on the other hand, "Genuine" only means that he acquired Innovation not with artificial means. This doesn't make him more superior to other possible innovators. (Ribbons, Divine, Revive, etc. are not Innovators but Innovades... an artificial Innovator. They're clearly inferior to Innovators).*

Now that everything is cleared, let the battle begin!

Kira is FAR more intelligent than Setsuna.
Kira has the SEED.

Setsuna can use Quantum brainwaves to communicate and access Veda.
Setsuna is a soldier. Knowing a lot of firearms and best at CQC (close-quarter combat)
Setsuna can sense impending danger and anticipate movements and actions of opponents.

*Note: since it is not yet clear what the advantages of being an Innovator really is aside from performing better in the battlefield together with the use of Quantum brainwaves and access to Veda... I can't say much about it.*

Kira is a flexible pilot (not a gymnast or acrobat ^^)
Kira has spatial awareness which is a very rare attribute.
Kira is a skilled unarmed fighter.
----------

Results of Kira vs Setsuna: 3:5 in favor of Kira

Final Results: 9:8 in favor of 00 Raiser w/ Setsuna

Whew... a close fight... but 00 Raiser and Setsuna managed to bring home the victory... haha... I hope you find this helpful in judging the two MS Gundams... Thanks for reading! smile-big

Zetta

04-19-2009, 12:13 AM

LightMaster

04-19-2009, 02:25 PM

In response to your post.

Even if the specs were equal... both the Dendrobium and the Nueue Ziel have UC's version of the Zero System installed on it. Why?

Because Uraki Kou and Anaval Gato arn't newtypes and yet they needed to pilot suits created for them. That's one of the reason this system was never put into real production... since newtypes don't need it.

You have... No idea what you're talking about if you think they have anything even resembling the Zero System. Ziel has the Half Control System, and the Orchis has pretty much no special system, certainly nothing alike to the Zero System. Half Control is nothing like Zero either.

Lastly... no, again, no talking out of your ass Mr know more about UC. The Gp03 and Ziel weren't made for Newtypes. They have no NT systems, Half Control isn't meant for Newtypes either to my knowledge.

But you know...being wrong is fun too, I guess.

Zetta

04-19-2009, 02:37 PM

You have... No idea what you're talking about if you think they have anything even resembling the Zero System. Ziel has the Half Control System, and the Orchis has pretty much no special system, certainly nothing alike to the Zero System. Half Control is nothing like Zero either.

Lastly... no, again, no talking out of your ass Mr know more about UC. The Gp03 and Ziel weren't made for Newtypes. They have no NT systems, Half Control isn't meant for Newtypes either to my knowledge.

But you know...being wrong is fun too, I guess.

Yeah, you're wrong because I say so :argh
Brilliant.

Specsheet for the Neue Ziel:
AMA-002 (AMA-X2, AMX-002) Neue Ziel

Manufacturer: Axis
Operator: Axis
Unit type: trial production Newtype use mobile armor
Overall height: unknown
Weight: unknown
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, unknown output rate
Armament: 2 x heavy claw arm, mounts mega particle gun/beam saber each; 2 x 80mm vulcan gun, mounted on main body; 6 x missile launcher, mounted on main body; I-field barrier generator, provides 360 degrees of protection against all beam weapons fire, mounted in main body

About the Half-Control:
One of the first examples of a "true" incom unit would be the remote claws of the AMA-02/AMX-002 Neue Ziel mobile armor fielded by the Delaz Fleet in UC 0083, controlled by a "half-control system" which is similar, if not the same as, the later produced quasi-psycommu system employed by Axis/Neo Zeon.

So it's a system that gives the user powers that resemble newtypes... just like the zero system. :uwah Even more proof is when Char went to Axis and piloted the Neue Ziel II, it was fitted with a psycommu system since Char didn't need the Half-Control because he was already a newtype... :apathy

I like how the only reason you came here is because you got mauled in the Heero vs Kira thread and thought you could get a cheap revenge :amuse

LightMaster

04-19-2009, 03:14 PM

Yeah, you're wrong because I say so :argh
Brilliant.

Specsheet for the Neue Ziel:
AMA-002 (AMA-X2, AMX-002) Neue Ziel

Manufacturer: Axis
Operator: Axis
Unit type: trial production Newtype use mobile armor
Overall height: unknown
Weight: unknown
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, unknown output rate
Armament: 2 x heavy claw arm, mounts mega particle gun/beam saber each; 2 x 80mm vulcan gun, mounted on main body; 6 x missile launcher, mounted on main body; I-field barrier generator, provides 360 degrees of protection against all beam weapons fire, mounted in main body

About the Half-Control:
One of the first examples of a "true" incom unit would be the remote claws of the AMA-02/AMX-002 Neue Ziel mobile armor fielded by the Delaz Fleet in UC 0083, controlled by a "half-control system" which is similar, if not the same as, the later produced quasi-psycommu system employed by Axis/Neo Zeon.

So it's a system that gives the user powers that resemble newtypes... just like the zero system. :uwah Even more proof is when Char went to Axis and piloted the Neue Ziel II, it was fitted with a psycommu system since Char didn't need the Half-Control because he was already a newtype... :apathy

I like how the only reason you came here is because you got mauled in the Heero vs Kira thread and thought you could get a cheap revenge :amuse

I'm not sure where you get your information from...sounds wrong. Nueu Ziel is not newtype use. But here's the link to the profile on mahq.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0083/amx-002.htm

Oh and here's a snippet from Gundam Official on the arms that are the controlled by the Half-Control system.

"it sports a pair of computer-controlled claw arms which allow even non-Newtypes like Anavel Gato to carry out the dreaded multi-directional "all-range attack."

Oh and a link to the official listing for the superior Quasi system.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/glossary_technology.html#quasipsycommusystem

Gonna say you were wrong, since Gundam Official says they're computer controlled... And thats like, the official site with information OK'D by Bandai and sunrise. Hell, Zero doesn't even give a person Newtype power's, ZERO has the ability to mimick Newtype precog KIND-OF, and then gives it's predictions to the pilot... it's like having a pseudo newtype backseat driving.

Zetta

04-19-2009, 03:23 PM

I'm not sure where you get your information from...sounds wrong. Nueu Ziel is not newtype use. But here's the link to the profile on mahq.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0083/amx-002.htm
Spec from a site that deals ONLY with Gundam versus Mahq. A site that deals with every mecha anime.

Yeah, I think I trust the Gundam only site a tad better.

Oh and here's a snippet from Gundam Official on the arms that are the controlled by the Half-Control system.

"it sports a pair of computer-controlled claw arms which allow even non-Newtypes like Anavel Gato to carry out the dreaded multi-directional "all-range attack."
And now read between the lines. It gave Anaval Gato, an oldtype, the power to fight like a newtype. Same as Zero System. You lose.

Oh and a link to the official listing for the superior Quasi system.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/glossary_technology.html#quasipsycommusystem
The Half system is the precursor for the Quasi system, which lets oldtypes fight like newtypes. Just like Zero System. I win.

Gonna say you were wrong, since Gundam Official says they're computer controlled... And thats like, the official site with information OK'D by Bandai and sunrise. Hell, Zero doesn't even give a person Newtype power's, ZERO has the ability to mimick Newtype precog KIND-OF, and then gives it's predictions to the pilot... it's like having a pseudo newtype backseat driving.
Which is what I said. :apathy
Learn to read :amuse

Also, a good Gundam fan knows most of the Gundam info on Gundam Official isn't accurate.

"it sports a pair of computer-controlled claw arms which allow even non-Newtypes like Anavel Gato to carry out the dreaded multi-directional "all-range attack."

Even in your own snippet, there's an error. There is no such thing as a non-newtype. There are only newtypes and oldtypes.

Gundam Official is filled with these kinds of errors. That's why good fans don't use it. But, considering you're a seednewblet, you didn't know that :amuse

Anyway, considering you've proved that you're just a little seedlet using a site, there is no reason for me to continue. I have better things to do than debate with noobs. Bai bai :zaru

LightMaster

04-19-2009, 04:29 PM

Spec from a site that deals ONLY with Gundam versus Mahq. A site that deals with every mecha anime.

Yeah, I think I trust the Gundam only site a tad better.

What does that have to do with anything, mahq is pretty good at Gundam, pretty damn good at Gundam. And what "Only Gundam" site are you even talking about?

And now read between the lines. It gave Anaval Gato, an oldtype, the power to fight like a newtype. Same as Zero System. You lose.

It's nothing like the Zero System, it's like you're saying having a Beam Rifle makes you a Gundam.

Anyway, considering you've proved that you're just a little seedlet using a site, there is no reason for me to continue. I have better things to do than debate with noobs. Bai bai

So I should just post up stuff from sources I can't show people... like you? Or know anything about Gundam in general like you? I guess the official site is wrong, yeah. I'd like to know where the Official site is wrong and you're right. Inform me please.

Oh, and I JUST noticed you copied Ziel II's stats, put in Ziel's name.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/AMA-002_Neue_Ziel

The original MA's stats are on the side of the page, genius. And WAIT, they're the exact same stats as listed on mahq, and expanded from the stats listed on Gundam Official.

Like I said, full of shit.

Hellrasinbrasin

04-19-2009, 04:50 PM

THE GUNDAM SERIES:
TOP GUN

- Amuro Ray UC 0079-0093
- Char Aznable UC 0079-0093
- Kamille Bidan UC 0087-0087
- Setsuna F Seiei AD 2307-2312
- Lockon Stratos AD 2307-2312
- Graham Aker AD 2307-2312
- Allelujah Haptism AD 2307-2312

:ohpek

Helpoemer07

04-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Mr. Zetta and all other members in this thread that got lost...

I don't know if you really ignored my post or you just happen to see it's irrelevant or something. But at least you should say something.

Since I feel like you've ignored my post I will post it again and hope that you'll read it this time for good...

Here's my post:

Hey bro... why did it lead to UC stories? I mean... this is a Strike Freedom vs 00 Raiser Thread right? Well, I just wanted it to revert back to how it was intended to be...

First let me give my brief opinion on UC:

I don't know much about UC Gundams... so sorry if I can't give that much credit to Nueu Ziel and Dendobrium or something like that... Hmmm... but if you ask me, while reading your posts I can't help but think that yeah you're a little over exaggerating... Let's say that they have been made to actually defeat armies... That just means that they're Gundam Technology is far more superior than that of the army's... The same is through with 00... 00 and the other Gundams are also made to withstand an entire enemy fleet! Well, although I guess they made it more realistic for them to have a hard time at them... As for combat, I'd say 00 Raiser is equipped with all necessary armaments to take on any kind of mobile suit... I don't know much about IField, but I read in Wiki that it's quite similar to GN-Fields as it can take on beams and other kinds of assaults with ease but is weak against solid attacks like Swords, etc... If that's the case, I don't really get it why the Gundams you said are A FAR FAR FAR more SUPERIOR than 00 Raiser... They may be stronger but I'd say that 00 Raiser also has a chance of winning... In a scale of 1 to 100, I'd say he has at least 40% chance of actually winning not with luck... If 00 Raiser would use Trans-Am Burst together with the GN-Field, he can quanticize himself and appear right in front of the said UC gundams and possibly bring a melee combat into action rendering both IFields and GN-Fields useless...

I read that the newtypes are quite similar to the coordinators of Seed (I'm not arguing they're equals)... I'm just saying that I have an idea how good they are... Innovators on the other hand is very much a different type of human beings... It's not clear what advantages do the Innovators really have aside from use of Quantum brainwaves and access to Veda System, but I believe it's not right to just say right away that again.. Newtypes are FAR FAR FAR more superior to Innovators... Without a solid ground to base it on, you can just assume things... although it is also a reality that Innovators, unlike Coordinators, doesn't have super human strength (haha just kidding)... They aren't stronger than ordinary humans... All i'm saying is please stop assuming things if they aren't as crystal clear as Scissors vs Rock... And besides, i learned that Setsuna can anticipate movements of the enemies and sense impending danger(spider sense... haha).

Simply put, the UC gundams you said together with the Newtypes breed MIGHT be superior to AD gundams and Innovators, BUT that is just an assumption due to present facts... Their a little better but that doesn't put the AD 00 Raiser and Setsuna FAR behind... Like I said, I believe there's a 40% chance he'll win considering the advantages of 00(like quantization, trans-am burst and infinite energy supply).

I know I know! I don't know anything about UC so I may not be a reliable post, but I just wanted to give my side in favor of AD... I read your posts and with that I formed the conclusion that they're not as superior as what you're exaggerating in your posts... Please do not take this against me... All I'm doing is posting my opinion, that's all... It ain't right to judge things like that since they are in a different league... They're in fact a different series. But I guess we all enjoy putting them into an arena for a fight... haha...

With all that was said and done, I hope you see my points... With the things you said in your posts, I think you're right in ASSUMING the said UC Gundams have a greater chance of winning than 00 and Setsuna... BUT, Like I said, just an assumption... 00 and Setsuna also has a chance of winning (around 40% in my opinion)... *not with luck*

Back to the main topic...

I'm in favor of a win for 00 Raiser against Strike Freedom... Although I believe Kira is a better pilot than Setsuna. Haha...

Well, here are their characteristics:

ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom docked with METEOR:
power supply
Ultracompact Hyper-Deuterion Nuclear Fission Reactor
armor
Phase Shift Armor/Variable Phase Shift Armor
specials
DRAGOON system
Multi-lock system (can hardly use this against 00 alone)
METEOR (Mobile Suit Embedded Tactical Enforcer)
Beam Shield Generator
HiMAT (High Mobility Aerial Tactics)

GN-0000+GNR-010 00 Raiser
power supply
GN Drive x 2
armor
E-Carbon filled with GN particles
specials
GN-Field
Trans-Am
Trans-Am burst
Quantization
Raiser Sword

--------

Now, for a calculation... both are High speed Gundams...

1.) SF equipped with a variation of Vioture Lumiere and 00 Raiser with the Trans-Am... But Trans-Am versus HiMAT, a point for 00 Raiser...
2.) Power supply, an arguably infinite "Ultracompact Hyper-Deuterion Nuclear Fission Reactor" power supply for SF, while Twin GN-Drives for 00 Raiser. Another point for 00 Raiser because it was declared a fact that GN-Particles are indeed "Infinite" sources of power while Nuclear reactors are only assumed because of its massive energy output...
3.) Armor. VPS armor for SF while E-Carbon with GN-Particles for 00 Raiser... I think this is a point on effectivity for SF. Since it uses quite a huge amount of energy, the Nuclear power satisfies it quite well. And in comparison to both armor, in battles the VPS proved more effective against assaults than E-Carbon is... A point for SF.
4.) Beam Shield Generator vs GN-Field. A clear win for 00 Raiser.

initial comparison: 3:1 in favor of 00 Raiser.

2nd Phase:
Other specials:
DRAGOON System. I'll put this against Quantization of 00 Raiser... But since 00 Raiser can't use it without Trans-Am, I'm going to put into consideration the HiMAT of SF. Hmmm... a hard one, but I believe it's more in favor for 00 Raiser. Since 00 Raiser can just disappear right before it's hit by beam rifles of the DRAGOON system.

METEOR. I'll put this as a point for SF. Why? GN-0000 00 Gundam without the GNR-010 Rasier, is only a Gundam with amazing potentials. While, SF without METEOR is proven to be a dreadful enemy already.

Multi-lock system. I will say this is quite useless against a single opponent, but considering the number of targets it can hit... Let's just make this as not just Multi-lock but HEAVY Firepower for SF, I can say it can be a bit of an advantage for SF.. so arguably, it's a point for SF. *I'm not saying 00 Raiser can't handle this, of course 00 has GN-fields but I'm just saying that this is an advantage for SF over 00 Raiser*

Trans-Am Burst. A clear victory for 00 Raiser.

Raiser Sword. Can't say as a victory for 00 Raiser since I doubt it's possible to hit SF with this. but since I used the Multi-lock as an advantage rather as an immediate win then I guess I'll just have to consider this as a point for 00 Raiser.

--------

Further results: 3:2

Now for the pilots...

Kira Yamato vs Setsuna F. Seiei

Coordinator vs Innovator

*Note* I have removed the "ultimate" and "genuine" in their titles because Kira as Ultimate Coordinator doesn't mean he's superior to any other coordinators. Why? Because the ultimate there just means he's a successful result of Genetic Engineering. This means he has acquired the traits that were planned (eye colors, skin, etc). Proof: Kira vs Athrun in Strike and Aegis. Athrun was able to come out with a tie with Kira even though he's not an "ultimate coordinator". Kira just happens to be more intelligent than ordinary coordinators and gifted with the SEED. That's all. Setsuna on the other hand, "Genuine" only means that he acquired Innovation not with artificial means. This doesn't make him more superior to other possible innovators. (Ribbons, Divine, Revive, etc. are not Innovators but Innovades... an artificial Innovator. They're clearly inferior to Innovators).*

Now that everything is cleared, let the battle begin!

Kira is FAR more intelligent than Setsuna.
Kira has the SEED.

Setsuna can use Quantum brainwaves to communicate and access Veda.
Setsuna is a soldier. Knowing a lot of firearms and best at CQC (close-quarter combat)
Setsuna can sense impending danger and anticipate movements and actions of opponents.

*Note: since it is not yet clear what the advantages of being an Innovator really is aside from performing better in the battlefield together with the use of Quantum brainwaves and access to Veda... I can't say much about it.*

Kira is a flexible pilot (not a gymnast or acrobat ^^)
Kira has spatial awareness which is a very rare attribute.
Kira is a skilled unarmed fighter.
----------

Results of Kira vs Setsuna: 3:5 in favor of Kira

Final Results: 9:8 in favor of 00 Raiser w/ Setsuna

Whew... a close fight... but 00 Raiser and Setsuna managed to bring home the victory... haha... I hope you find this helpful in judging the two MS Gundams... Thanks for reading!

For mr. Zetta, I wish to see your views too... Views on the fight between 00 Raiser and Strike Freedom... *not other gundams* Because you seem to be very knowledgeable... thanks...

And by the way... Do you know where can I download the original Mobile Suit Gundam? With a nice dub or sub? I hate to buy pirated DVDs and end up with subtitles that doesn't mean a thing! whew... thanks...smile-big

Zetta

04-20-2009, 12:34 AM

For mr. Zetta, I wish to see your views too... Views on the fight between 00 Raiser and Strike Freedom... *not other gundams* Because you seem to be very knowledgeable... thanks...

I actually don't really like debating 00 vs Seed. It's too ambigious.

And by the way... Do you know where can I download the original Mobile Suit Gundam? With a nice dub or sub? I hate to buy pirated DVDs and end up with subtitles that doesn't mean a thing! whew... thanks...smile-big
That, I can help with.

http://getfansub.com/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Gundam

They have links to every episode on megaupload/rapidshare. You can also find links to the fansubber just incase you wanna XDCC it.

You can also find every Gundam every made on this site and it's overal great for finding nearly any anime.

Helpoemer07

04-20-2009, 06:44 PM

Thanks for all the help mr. Zetta... I really appreciate it...

*to others out there*
just a reminder: this is a Strike Freedom vs 00 Raiser thread. Please don't intentionally change the topic... If it can't be helped, at least remain in their respective series (Seed and 00)... Just a friendly reminder...

*to UC fans*
I'm really excited to start watching the original Gundam timeline, then I'll be able to have a good conversation with you guys... Hooray Gundam!

*to mr. Zetta*
thanks for being great!smile-big

Biolink

04-20-2009, 08:25 PM

LightMaster

04-20-2009, 09:28 PM

Kira might be flexible, I guess, maybe he even has a low level amount of Spatial Awareness since all it is is a higher understanding of a 3 dimensional plane(You'll have to explain that one to me because the incident where he destroys 25 suits in the short amount of time, and had the Newtyple "flash" was confirmed as a homage if that's your example of his Spatial Awareness. Also Strike Freedom's DRAGOONS were based off of Chas Gundam's gunbarrels which were computer controlled)

But skilled hand to hand fighter?

On what grounds? That he overpowered and beat up a geeky Natural kid?

I guarantee he wouldn't be able to fight hand to hand with Setsuna. A guy actually TRAINED in hand to hand combat.

There's a difference between not being a pushover in a fight, and then actually having some skill that stems from formal training in hand to hand combat(Like Setsuna and Heero).

Generally speaking, the bit about the SUPER DRAGOON's and any other easier to control system is computer controlled, and most people like to say it's a combination of Mental control and automation. But CONTROLLING them aside, he's been sensing and fighting them since way before then, and sensing Newtype's before then as well.

Anyway, why does everyone put so much stalk in formal training; in Gundam no less; land of untrained teenagers becoming the best pilots without formal training. If Kira had cleared a room of 12 soldiers in hand-to-hand combat, going on feats, he'd stomp on Heero and Setsuna... ah well. He hasn't, he'd probably lose in a fight with hands.

Anyway, Even in real life, skill isn't measured by how much training you have but how good you actually are. Hell, I can get several people who practice and study Martial Arts, and have been doing it for years to outright tell you if they meet someone in the middle of the street who's got no formal training... but has been brawling for a while, the brawler would probably win.

Yukihiko Miroku

04-20-2009, 10:14 PM

Anyway, why does everyone put so much stalk in formal training; in Gundam no less; land of untrained teenagers becoming the best pilots without formal training. If Kira had cleared a room of 12 soldiers in hand-to-hand combat, going on feats, he'd stomp on Heero and Setsuna... ah well. He hasn't, he'd probably lose in a fight with hands.

Based on feats, he would stomp Heero and Setsuna? HELL NO! Heero destroys military bases by himself. Hell, he goes in unarmed and comes out the only man standing. He takes out armed men with his bare hands.

I can get several people who practice and study Martial Arts, and have been doing it for years to outright tell you if they meet someone in the middle of the street who's got no formal training... but has been brawling for a while, the brawler would probably win

Well, you just proved our argument!

The brawler had his own experience and training. Thus, he has a chance.

Amuro... had at least decent experience and knowledge on mobile suits.
Kamille had knowledge, training and experience in mobile suits
Judau had knowledge and experience in suits,
The guy from 0083... same boat.
Uso (can't remember, but he wasn't that freakin' good. That mobile suit was though! lol)
Heero ... had training and knowledge.

Seriously! They all had something and when they got their suits, they TRAINED with them in order to get better.

Kira was placed within situations and bitched about it in beginning and then saw it as a burden. Eventually, his mobile suit took him pretty far. I guess some of that added up to his abilities. If he would have TRAINED during the series to perfect himself, don't you think that we'd give him more credit. Training makes a hell of difference because it's saying, when Heero does not have his ZERO system, what can you do? If Setsuna doesn't have his innovator powers, what can he do? What can Amuro do without his newtype powers? Based on their experience, they should be able to do something without their powers or add-ons. Kira...well what has he shown you that he should be able to take on someone like Rau without his seed powers or freedom?

Based on what your description or what you are saying, Kira on the first episode should be able to beat Heero from the last episode. Am I right?

Biolink

04-20-2009, 10:43 PM

Generally speaking, the bit about the SUPER DRAGOON's and any other easier to control system is computer controlled, and most people like to say it's a combination of Mental control and automation. But CONTROLLING them aside, he's been sensing and fighting them since way before then, and sensing Newtype's before then as well.

Anyway, why does everyone put so much stalk in formal training; in Gundam no less; land of untrained teenagers becoming the best pilots without formal training. If Kira had cleared a room of 12 soldiers in hand-to-hand combat, going on feats, he'd stomp on Heero and Setsuna... ah well. He hasn't, he'd probably lose in a fight with hands.

Anyway, Even in real life, skill isn't measured by how much training you have but how good you actually are. Hell, I can get several people who practice and study Martial Arts, and have been doing it for years to outright tell you if they meet someone in the middle of the street who's got no formal training... but has been brawling for a while, the brawler would probably win.

Show me something that says the Super DRAGOONS are a mixture of both, because I'm looking at a MAHQ article that clearly says its based on a quantum communications system allowing users without expanded spatial awareness to use them.

As to the fist fight debate, I don't know what you're trying to debate.

I'm not disagreeing with you that in real life, a person who is just a plain naturally better fighter could win despite having no formal training, against somebody that's worse, but had formal training.

I'm saying that Setsuna and Heero with their military training would beat Kira in a fight, because more than likely on top of being trained, because of their experience on the battlefield it's pretty much a 10:1 wager that they are superior fighters to Kira naturally. Unless you want to debate that a brawler can somehow beat somebody who's been taught to kill in order to defend himself(And if that's not what you meant sorry for putting words in your mouth)

Even with somebody that's just a naturally better fighter, there are many different factors with the more experienced and formally trained guy. Because he's had experience he could've fought brawlers that probably should've won under any other circumstance, but lost due to experience. To give a Sports example, people talk about "Raw" talent all the time, but when it comes down to it in a game time situation you'd rather have somebody that has been there before, and knows what they are doing as opposed to to somebody that's talented, but has been pretty much thrown out there to the sharks.

You do realize how ambiguous saying somebody is "Naturally" better is right?

LightMaster

04-20-2009, 11:13 PM

Based on feats, he would stomp Heero and Setsuna? HELL NO! Heero destroys military bases by himself. Hell, he goes in unarmed and comes out the only man standing. He takes out armed men with his bare hands.

Bah, I didn't say that. I said if he HAD, he would. Then I said he didn't and would thusly lose because he doesn't have to many hand-to-hand showings. Not to say he's not pretty damned agile for a kid without any kind of training.

Oh, and destroying a military base isn't indicative of Hand-to-Hand combat ability. If he ran in and beat everyone to death with his mastery over Close Combat, very well, but the use of guns and Grenades, or just not encountering anyone at all isn't a case for saying he could bloody Ryu or something.

Amuro... had at least decent experience and knowledge on mobile suits.
Kamille had knowledge, training and experience in mobile suits
Judau had knowledge and experience in suits,
The guy from 0083... same boat.
Uso (can't remember, but he wasn't that freakin' good. That mobile suit was though! lol)
Heero ... had training and knowledge.

Amuro didn't have any training before he got into the Gundam, he had some knowledge of design I think... he needed the Gundam's manual to get the hang of it in the beginning.

Kamille had training in Junior Mobile Suits and those Glider deals you see Katz use Later on in Zeta. Kamille wasn't all that good anyway... got helped WAY to often.

Judua was a junker, Kou was a pilot for the Earth Federation from the very start. You're forgetting Seabook, and Garrod.

So generally speaking the higher level people don't have formal training so far as MS go. Plus Usso was pretty good, Victory and V2 were good suits...but he used them damned well IIRC.

Kira was placed within situations and bitched about it in beginning and then saw it as a burden. Eventually, his mobile suit took him pretty far. I guess some of that added up to his abilities. If he would have TRAINED during the series to perfect himself, don't you think that we'd give him more credit.

Actual Combat Experience is superior to training, it's a training all it's own. Why train on your down time, you're stressing yourself and your eating up energy you're going to need during combat. You give Strike to much credit, it's a superb unit, but even when Strike was at a disadvantage Kira dragged them through it. See when he fought in the desert and submerged for examples; Strike is most glaringly inferior to the GooHn's.

The Machine is only as good as it's pilot. Kira turns the Strike into a machine to be feared, not the other way around. Even when it's dated in Destiny, he clears people out.

Training makes a hell of difference because it's saying, when Heero does not have his ZERO system, what can you do? If Setsuna doesn't have his innovator powers, what can he do? What can Amuro do without his newtype powers? Based on their experience, they should be able to do something without their powers or add-ons. Kira...well what has he shown you that he should be able to take on someone like Rau without his seed powers or freedom?

Training doesn't tell you anything in Gundam, or shouldn't, because the greatest pilots don't have any training except the training they get on the battle field. Even Kira spent the majority of his time outside of combat sitting in Strike's cockpit doing whatever he was doing, much like how Amuro spent his off time messing with Gundam. We'd base what these people can do WITHOUT their Powers/Systems on what they do before they get them or fully unlock them in some cases.

Why could Kira take on someone like Rau without his SEED Powers... well, because he takes on several other aces without them, or Freedom. He doesn't use SEED to win or fight all his battles, and he doesn't get Freedom until the final 16 episodes. Could he beat Rau in Providence with Strike, no, Strike can't move fast enough as seen when it got destroyed trying to avoid the DRAGOON's. In that case, Strike is the hindrance not Kira.

He Fought Rau for a pretty good chunk of time without SEED, and came out without getting Freedom scratched even with the massive METEOR attached to his ass, and Freedom doesn't do anything without Kira making it do it. Avoiding the DRAGOON's, deflecting the beams, shooting DRAGOON's down all of that his him, just as much as avoiding Funnels, shooting them down is Amuro or Char... they guide the machine.

Training isn't the end all be all, every cannon fodder pilot that's part of the respective series military has proper training... they die, because they're not as good DESPITE either having more training or the same amount, less in the case of the Wing Boys.

Based on what your description or what you are saying, Kira on the first episode should be able to beat Heero from the last episode. Am I right?

Not at all, Kira in the first episode was good for a first timer. He was raw though, as seen a few episodes later when he wasted away his whole battery firing at duel and dodging Blitz, Buster and the aforementioned Duel. He grows, and ends up schooling Buster, Blitz and Duel before or during they ORB deal.

If we were going on First Episode Kira vs. First episode Heero... Kira win based solely on the showing in that one episode. Kira comes off better, Heero relied far to much on the Wing's armor, and ended up getting locked down by the Leo despite having the ability to remove it in several ways, and stop himself from dropping into the ocean. Based solely on this episode, no start of series pilot can beat an end of series pilot(SERIES not movies)

Show me something that says the Super DRAGOONS are a mixture of both, because I'm looking at a MAHQ article that clearly says its based on a quantum communications system allowing users without expanded spatial awareness to use them.

How exactly does that mean automation of the DRAGOON's. I think you're inferring a lot more then is given there.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11102

That thread talks more about it.

'm saying that Setsuna and Heero with their military training would beat Kira in a fight, because more than likely on top of being trained, because of their experience on the battlefield it's pretty much a 10:1 wager that they are superior fighters to Kira naturally. Unless you want to debate that a brawler can somehow beat somebody who's been taught to kill in order to defend himself(And if that's not what you meant sorry for putting words in your mouth)

I suppose I took what you said to far, I assumed you meant that simply because they have more training they're clearly superior. Which is where I disagreed.

Helpoemer07

04-21-2009, 06:57 PM

goodness... I only left for a while and there's already a debate here (is it because of me?)... oh well...

Mr. BIOLINK,
you were right in saying that Kira's DRAGOON system doesn't need spatial awareness for it... Although heightened mental awareness would of course improve it compared to a mere natural piloting it.

Spatial awareness of Kira. This refers to his capability to sense incoming danger and hostile movements around him. Although if he was given an older version of DRAGOON system, I doubt it'll make a difference considering he will also be able to use it effectively through his spatial awareness.

Who said anything about hand-to-hand combat? Look, I only said their characteristics and made them as *possible advantages. If they were to fight hand-to-hand, there's a huge possibility for Setsuna to win considering his training and experiences.

Kira is a skilled unarmed fighter. I said this because I read it in an article. Due to his spatial awareness, he can quickly react to a hostile attack making him dodge or attack faster. It also means that he just ain't good with range weaponry due to his own kindness. Although it was also shown that he became better with guns during the Destiny series.

CONCLUSION:
If Kira were to fight Setsuna in a hand-to-hand combat...

Kira's spatial awareness vs Setsuna's trained reflexes
-----
0:1 in favor of Setsuna
why? spatial awareness let's you know that the opponent might do this to you and thus give you chance to react. The same thing with reflexes, but spatial awareness is more of the mind. Reflexes is more of the physique of the person.
Knowing what might happen and be able to make a move against it are different. If the attack is something faster than your chain of thoughts, you're doomed. However, if you have trained reflexes... even if an attack is faster than your chain of thoughts, your body will move in accordance to a similar event and render you being able to dodge the attack. That's the difference between the two.
-----

Conclusion: Setsuna is far better than Kira in CQC (as I have posted EARLIER).
I just said that Kira is a skilled unarmed fighter considering his enhanced reactions due to spatial awareness. hope you guys get it right this time.

Please try to understand posts first before giving necessary comments.

To Biolink, Kira isn't somebody with a low-level of spatial awareness. He has a HEIGHTENED level of spatial awareness. I don't know if it's comparable to Mu's but he isn't just anybody with that kind of ability. He was gifted with it. And also, when did I say that Kira will win in hand-to-hand combat? I think you got me wrong there. I only said their characteristics and pitted them against another. Kira might be a skilled unarmed fighter considering his senses, but Setsuna is way better.

Although if they'll have an IQ test... hmmm... haha...
Well, if the questions were about weapons and guns... Setsuna will win.. haha... other than that... hmmm...

Zetta

04-21-2009, 09:17 PM

Kira's spatial awareness isn't that extreme. It's higher than normal humans and his enhanced reflexes allow him to utilise it to a greater degree than normal people but he doesn't have a sixth sense spatial awareness like Newtypes have.

It's more a combination of his already boosted stats coupled with his extra speed/reflex that allow him to utilize it to a greater degree than normal people. Advantages of being the Perfect Coordinator I suppose.

Helpoemer07

04-22-2009, 02:43 AM

Well, I don't know if it's reliable but I believe so... I'm taking all my claims from the official Gundam Wiki...

I'm taking some of my claims about Kira from Gundam Wiki:

While lacking any true form of military training, Kira's fighting prowess has developed much as the series progresses. In the original Gundam SEED series, Kira is shown to be inexperienced with handguns, preferring not to use them. He even has to be reminded by Mu to remove the safety on his gun in episode 44 while in pursuit of Rau on Mendel station. He is shown as a skilled unarmed fighter, however, and is extremely effective with his mobile suit's artillery. In Gundam Seed Destiny, his handgun skills improve dramatically as seen in the second assassination attempt on Lacus Clyne. His implied status as a person with high spatial awareness ability also has an impact on his fighting abilities.

If you know a MORE reliable site, then it would help me a lot. But I believe Gundam Wiki is pretty much reliable. And my claim that Kira has a heightened Spatial Awareness came from the above quote which says:

His implied status as a person with high spatial awareness ability also has an impact on his fighting abilities.

I hope you don't take it against me. I'm just stating my opinion on this issue. And also, Kira being an "ULTIMATE" Coordinator doesn't really mean he's BETTER in all aspects. He is just the same as every other coordinator in the sense that he's a cut stronger, faster, and more intelligent than NATURALS. Yet, if he were to go up against a fellow coordinator the chances of him winning would be different. It's not as if he IS STRONGER, FASTER, and MORE INTELLIGENT (well for some) than them.

The ultimate in the "Ultimate Coordinator" title only means he is the MOST SUCCESSFUL coordinator since each and every attribute that was given to him by his "parents" have been successful. Of course I believe that he was also given the "genes" to be SO DAMN SMART...

One proof would be his "almost-death-but-ended-in-a-tie" battle of Kira vs Athrun with GAT-X105 Strike and GAT-X303 Aegis Gundams... How come the result is like that even though Athrun isn't an "ULTIMATE COORDINATOR"? Hope you see the points...

The advantages of an "ultimate coordinator" would be all dependent on the genes that were altered.

Of course I wouldn't deny the fact that it can also be true that they're a cut better than their fellow coordinators if we pit them to a fight, but that can also mean that that's the way their genes were altered... TO BE STRONGER...

Hope you guys see my points...

hmmm... mr. Zetta, you said...

It's more a combination of his already boosted stats coupled with his extra speed/reflex that allow him to utilize it to a greater degree than normal people. Advantages of being the Perfect Coordinator I suppose.

yeah, you're right... It's possible that that's the way Prof. Ulen Hibiki (Kira's Biological Father) altered his genes.... smile-big

Red Zaku

04-23-2009, 03:01 AM

Well, I don't know if it's reliable but I believe so... I'm taking all my claims from the official Gundam Wiki...

Which is the worst thing to do in a debate. Taking claims from sources that can be edited by anyone to say anything is never a good idea.

If you know a MORE reliable site, then it would help me a lot. But I believe Gundam Wiki is pretty much reliable.

It's not in fact Gundam Wiki has less information and then the old Gundam articles on Wikipedia itself.

And my claim that Kira has a heightened Spatial Awareness came from the above quote which says:

>.> Ok, but that doesn't fit witht he specs of S-Freedom which say, "the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them."

I hope you don't take it against me. I'm just stating my opinion on this issue. And also, Kira being an "ULTIMATE" Coordinator doesn't really mean he's BETTER in all aspects.

He's not better then any. From GundamOfficial.com, "The final goal of the genetic engineers who created the Coordinators. Although Coordinators are mentally and physically superior to ordinary humans, their embryonic development is still affected by the environment of the mother's body. To eliminate this variable, the researcher Ulen Hibiki developed an artificial womb designed to produce biologically perfect children. The result would be the Ultimate Coordinator, whose every attribute could be scientifically controlled. Of the countless embryos which Hibiki used as test subjects for this artificial womb, his son Kira Yamato is believed to be the only survivor."

>.> Basically kids were being born with blue hair instead of red so so Hibiki created a fake womb to raise a child in so he'd come out exactly as he was supposed to. Kira himself is never stated to be better then a coordinator at anything. In fact his intelligence was commented on as being of a top tier coordinator, his physical body was unremarkable because no one ever mentions Kira as being stronger or faster. His pilots skills aren't superior as he can be pushed around by normal humans given drugs...

He is just the same as every other coordinator in the sense that he's a cut stronger, faster, and more intelligent than NATURALS.

Which is the defining set of traits for all coordinators so what are you arguing? Heck it's not even true because a Natural Mwu was stated by Fukuda to have beaten Kira in the beam saber duel between Strike and Freedom. Not to mention Kira was stunned and hard pressed to deal with the haphazard team work of the druggies which wasn't very good, nor incredibly clever.

The advantages of an "ultimate coordinator" would be all dependent on the genes that were altered.

There is no advantage at all. Being the Ultimate Coordinator means Kira was born exactly as his genes were mapped out to be. He was born with Brown Hair, purple eyes etc. Kiras was supposed to be a visually perfect specimen, and he was.

Zetta

04-23-2009, 07:20 AM

GundamWiki is basically a combination of the good info from Gundamofficial (since people have proofread the info before posting it so you don't get shit like non-newtypes instead of oldtypes) and the specs from Mahq.net

It's probably the best source of info you'll find on the net unless you have the Dark History Encyclopedia in translated form somewhere.

Sander RX

04-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Zetta

04-23-2009, 11:36 AM

Before you declare Gundam Wiki a ligitimate source,remember how they thought some fanart a lineart of Mr.Bushido's new MS...then Masurao cam along and made whoever wrote that article look irresponsible.

Yeah but that was before it was revealed. It's a lot harder to make mistakes when there's been ton of info released about both 00 and seed.

All 00 still needs is a databook and we'll have all the info possible (unless it's been released while I wasn't looking...)

Basilikos

04-23-2009, 02:17 PM

I hate to say it but 00 Raiser takes this match. It's just too broken for Strike Freedom.

Helpoemer07

04-23-2009, 06:03 PM

Red Zaku said,
>.> Ok, but that doesn't fit witht he specs of S-Freedom which say, "the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them."
O.o ok... so here is what I mean... It amplifies Kira's use of the DRAGOON system due to the fact that he can SENSE enemy hostilities in the area. Example, while Kira is fighting against an enemy unit another might be close by ready to fire at him or at one of his DRAGOONs... His heightened spatial awareness would make him realize this before hand and save himself or his DRAGOON from getting destroyed (especially by some random guy). This is what I meant by Kira being able to use DRAGOON more effectively.

And about the Gundam Wiki thing, I tried to look into GundamOfficial.com coz it looks like that's where you are taking you're data. But I wasn't able to find a page for Kira's character traits and abilities. Where can I get a really reliable information if gundam wiki is unreliable AS YOU ARE CLAIMING. please be specific, and unless I can find a better source, Gundam Wiki is RELIABLE ENOUGH for me.

And also... you said,
There is no advantage at all. Being the Ultimate Coordinator means Kira was born exactly as his genes were mapped out to be. He was born with Brown Hair, purple eyes etc. Kiras was supposed to be a visually perfect specimen, and he was.
There is. If you are trying to argue that Kira is just like any other coordinator then in a sense you are correct. But I believe that Prof. Ulen Hibiki, being able to control Kira's genes at will must have wanted to make him better in some aspects than just an ordinary coordinator... Like Kira's intelligence. Hibiki must have wanted his son to be intelligent like him. If Kira is the same as other coordinators (why the hell can't the normal soldiers of Zaft make use of the Gundams? why train specialized soldiers for them like Athrun, Dearka, Rusty, Yzak, Nicol?). That's because Kira's intelligence must have been altered to BE LIKE THAT. to be more intelligent than an already more-intelligent-than-a-natural coordinator. You see my point?

He's not INSANELY superior than other coordinators. He (like anybody among us in real life) is just better AT SOME ASPECTS than others.

Which is the defining set of traits for all coordinators so what are you arguing? Heck it's not even true because a Natural Mwu was stated by Fukuda to have beaten Kira in the beam saber duel between Strike and Freedom. Not to mention Kira was stunned and hard pressed to deal with the haphazard team work of the druggies which wasn't very good, nor incredibly clever.

What am I arguing? I'm just justifying my "removal" of the "ultimate" adjective of the "ultimate coordinator". I'm just explaining coz some people like to think things with EXTREME,PERFECT,ULTIMATE are godz.... you see my point? This is because I WAS TRYING to compare Kira and Setsuna... I sure hope you read my post...

ok?smile-big

For Basilikos, you said:
I hate to say it but 00 Raiser takes this match. It's just too broken for Strike Freedom.
Don't hate itsmile-big... Read my earlier post. It's a close fight but 00 Raiser w/ Setsuna won. But don't think that Strike Freedom doesn't stand a chance. 00 Raiser just won because of the difference in their specs. ok?:laugh

Red Zaku

04-24-2009, 12:31 AM

O.o ok... so here is what I mean... It amplifies Kira's use of the DRAGOON system due to the fact that he can SENSE enemy hostilities in the area.

Ok, but he doesn't... Fukuda already said post SEED that Kira's "newtype" moments were homages tot he original Gundam and that Kira got nothing from them. His Destiny moments can be written off as recognizing similarities in the way the people he was taking on fought.

Example, while Kira is fighting against an enemy unit another might be close by ready to fire at him or at one of his DRAGOONs...

>.> The New DRAGOON's are for all intents and purposes as far as anyone knows completely controlled by a computer. Hence Spatial Awareness isn't going to matter.

His heightened spatial awareness would make him realize this before hand and save himself or his DRAGOON from getting destroyed

Except that's not Spatial Awareness, that's newtype pre-cognition. Spatial Awareness would be the ability to control an object on a 3 dimensional plain in space. The idea that if you're removed from the object and looking at it froma distance you can accurately guage it's position in space along with the position of the targets it's relative to. Such a thing would be damn near impossible for a normal person, so the idea that people who could use stage one DRAGOON's and Gun-Barrels is pretty legit. Newtypes simply make the best candidates because of their ESP type abilities.

(especially by some random guy). This is what I meant by Kira being able to use DRAGOON more effectively.

Ok, but you haven't established he has Newtype Pre-cognition which is what you're talking about.

And about the Gundam Wiki thing, I tried to look into GundamOfficial.com coz it looks like that's where you are taking you're data.

Mahq.net. It's your friend.

But I wasn't able to find a page for Kira's character traits and abilities.

Kira has no ablities beyond his SEED Factor which is shared by several other cast members.

Where can I get a really reliable information if gundam wiki is unreliable AS YOU ARE CLAIMING.

Let's see, MAHQ.net, Gundamofficial.com, ultimatemark.com, mechatalk.net, various model kits, and technical manuals.

please be specific, and unless I can find a better source, Gundam Wiki is RELIABLE ENOUGH for me.

Just not enoguh to pass off in any kind of formalized debate.

But I believe that Prof. Ulen Hibiki, being able to control Kira's genes at will must have wanted to make him better in some aspects than just an ordinary coordinator...

Why? That wasn't the problem Hibiki was out to solve, nor was it the one he wanted to solve. He wanted a child who would be born exactly as he was supposed to be with his genes showing the exact encoding he'd selected when the child was still in the embryonic state. He wasn't out to make a super soldier, or make a child superior to other coordinators, he just wanted to make one that didn't have his genes altered by the mothers womb.

Like Kira's intelligence. Hibiki must have wanted his son to be intelligent like him.

And this is based on what? Certainly not the series because the only compliment Kira ever gets about his smart Andy compares him to top tier coordinators, but he doesn't suggest, or hint that he's actually smarter then the brightest of their race. You've just made a claim about how a character feels with no basis for why he would feel that way. The idea Hibiki wanted to make Kira superior to all other coordinators wasn't reflected in the flashback either as he simply wanted to make the specifimen who came out perfectly as his gene manipulation intended.

If Kira is the same as other coordinators (why the hell can't the normal soldiers of Zaft make use of the Gundams?

>.> Yzak, Dearka, and Nicol dominated EA forces repeatedly with their machines. They only have a hard time against Kira and Kira has Strike which was far more versatile then any of the mobile suits possessed by Yzak, Dearka, and Nicol. Especially considering Dearka is in a long range artillery/sniper unit not exactly built for mobility, Yzak's Duel was only a stepping stone to Strike, and later sports an extra twenty or so tons of armor it was never designed to carry, and Nicol's unit was meant to be a stealth machine not designed for frontile attacks. The majority of ZAFT forces never get Gundam's outside of these characters and by the end Yzak is able to kill two Druggies for the price of one, and Shinn shows us he can pull Kou Uraki's etc.

why train specialized soldiers for them like Athrun, Dearka, Rusty, Yzak, Nicol?).

They weren't specialized. Red Coats are Red Coats because they graduated with the highest marks of their class from the military academy. They're not special forces nor do they have training better then any other green shirt. They simply did better on their tests and in trainign then the green shirts. I'd also point out MS combat is brand new at the start of SEED. The idea that any of the ZAFT Red Caots of the Le'Creuset team.

That's because Kira's intelligence must have been altered to BE LIKE THAT.

Be like what? Kira actually get's tossed around by enhanced NATURAL's, he nearly dies fighting Athrun, and he never has to face Yzak, Dearka, or Nicol one on one by himself he's always had support or some form of advantage over them like the Aile pack vs. Guul's.

to be more intelligent than an already more-intelligent-than-a-natural coordinator. You see my point?

Not at all. Largely because it seems completely un-founded rooted in fights that generally cattered to Kira in one way or another whether it be by the advantage he has over them in the form of Strike's mobility and versatility, or the Mwu to the rescue plot savers.

He's not INSANELY superior than other coordinators. He (like anybody among us in real life) is just better AT SOME ASPECTS than others.

Ok, but his intelligence in series is only suggested to be on the level with other highly intelligent Coordinators and not ever hinted to be better then a coordiantor's.

Helpoemer07

04-24-2009, 10:19 AM

Spatial awareness is a well thought-out awareness of things in the space around us. It also deals with the awareness of our body's position in space. Spatial awareness is a basic thing to have that can help solve the most complex of problems. Without having spatial awareness, we would not be able to scroll down this page. Without spatial awareness, we would not be able to walk up to the refrigerator, open up its door and gulp down a bottle of water. Spatial awareness makes us distinguish between words in this page and see the letters in correct relation to each other. It goes without saying that enhancing your spatial awareness lays a crucial importance in sports and games.

I found that while surfing the net. Hmmm... doesn't really look like the kind of ability you were talking about... ok so look... Spatial Awareness means your sense of the things around you. Example, spatial awareness works when while doing something you feel somebody is behind you. Now, it is the ability being used in the OLD DRAGOON system. But what I was saying is that Kira's heightened spatial awareness would make him realize possible danger to him, to SF, and even to his flying DRAGOONS... I was never arguing that SF's DRAGOON system needs to be piloted by somebody with high level of spatial awareness...

In regards to the argument on Kira's intelligence... you might not have gotten my points exactly right... it's like this...

First, Athrun, Rusty, Nicol, Dearka and Yzak were specialized soldiers of ZAFT to be able to use the proto-type OS of the G-weapons. If a normal ZAFT pilot would try to use it, I doubt it'll move. This means that not all coordinators have the intelligence to reprogram or even use the OS of the Gundams.

Second, because of this, it proves that piloting Gundams and even ordinary mobile suits require a certain level of intelligence. Now if normal coordinators can't reprogram the OS like what Kira can do or even manipulate it, this means a higher level of intelligence was a gift for Kira.

Third, I'm NOT arguing that Kira is the MOST INTELLIGENT coordinator... I'm just saying that his level of intelligence was a product of science... Another example would be Lacus Clyne's voice. Just because she sings so damn good doesn't make her the BEST singing coordinator. That CAN BE just a product of her altered genes and many might still be better.

Fourth, all I'm saying is that Kira must have been gene-altered to be more intelligent than ordinary coordinators.

Fifth, you might not have gotten my point at not all ZAFT forces being able to use Gundams... what I mean is that they need a specialized corps to do the job because ordinary ZAFT soldiers won't do. Please don't think of coordinators as superhumans. If we will remove the Naturals at that era, they're practically normal to each others eyes. this means that not everything can be done by a coordinator, he also needs training and studies.
---

Now for the discussion on reliable sources...

you said,
Let's see, MAHQ.net, Gundamofficial.com, ultimatemark.com, mechatalk.net, various model kits, and technical manuals.
I've checked all of them and I found no results for the ones I was searching. MAHQ.net only features the Mechas and not the anime characters or pilots. Gundamofficial was very limited in giving character traits and abilities. It was almost zero to one. ultimatemark only features Gundam unofficial so I didn't bother to check. mechatalk.net was a forum just like this one so no need to check this one either. I mean, not one have given details as objective as in the Wiki... Hmmm... as of this moment I'm still seeing Gundam Wiki as a reliable source be it formalized debating or not (hope you don't take it against me)... That's just how I see it...

LightMaster

04-24-2009, 11:59 AM

Ok, but he doesn't... Fukuda already said post SEED that Kira's "newtype" moments were homages tot he original Gundam and that Kira got nothing from them. His Destiny moments can be written off as recognizing similarities in the way the people he was taking on fought.

Bullshit he didn't. He may not be a Newtype, but he's got NT traits out the ass. Still doesn't mean he deson't have enhanced Spatial Awareness.

The New DRAGOON's are for all intents and purposes as far as anyone knows completely controlled by a computer. Hence Spatial Awareness isn't going to matter.

Bullshit they are, no one even begins to agree with that. And you damn well know it, you probably frequent Mecha talk more then I do.

Except that's not Spatial Awareness, that's newtype pre-cognition. Spatial Awareness would be the ability to control an object on a 3 dimensional plain in space. The idea that if you're removed from the object and looking at it froma distance you can accurately guage it's position in space along with the position of the targets it's relative to. Such a thing would be damn near impossible for a normal person, so the idea that people who could use stage one DRAGOON's and Gun-Barrels is pretty legit. Newtypes simply make the best candidates because of their ESP type abilities.

Er. Spatial Awareness is just the ability to sense objects around you, in the space around you. It's not what allows you to control them. Which is why no one has to be a NT to have enhanced Spatial Awareness.

Kira has no ablities beyond his SEED Factor which is shared by several other cast members.

High Spatial Awareness. Bullshit he doesn't have it because it's what allows you to keep up with DRAGOON's that are dashing around everywhere.

Zetta

04-24-2009, 03:52 PM

Bullshit he didn't. He may not be a Newtype, but he's got NT traits out the ass. Still doesn't mean he deson't have enhanced Spatial Awareness.

Enhanced reflexes and enhanced spatial awareness due to these reflexes which allow him to take in information from around him faster than usual.

Anything else?

Mindfucking? Telepathy? Barriers? Paralysis? Being able to talk to the dead?

Red Zaku

04-24-2009, 11:17 PM

Spatial Awareness means your sense of the things around you.

No, that's what it means to be a newtype. Spatial Awarness is just as it sounds. Awarness of objects in space specifically the ability to guage distance and location from great distasnces without anything to put the object in question into scale. This is why there are non-newtypes who can use DRAGOON's.

Example, spatial awareness works when while doing something you feel somebody is behind you.

That's newtype pre-cognition.

Now, it is the ability being used in the OLD DRAGOON system.

The reason someone who's spatially aware can use the DRAGOON system is because they can guage distance to target and keep track of mutliple small objects at a distance, and know how to surround targets at a distnace. While that sounds easy it's not especially in space where there are few to no objects around in order to help the eyes analyze distance and size.

But what I was saying is that Kira's heightened spatial awareness would make him realize possible danger to him, to SF, and even to his flying DRAGOONS...

You have to prove he has spatial awareness. He doesn't. His DRAGOON's can be used by any idiot, and they're theorized to be entirely computer controlled. Prove he has spatial awareness before trying to prove it allows him greater control of his DRAGOONs.

I was never arguing that SF's DRAGOON system needs to be piloted by somebody with high level of spatial awareness...

No, you've been arguing Kira has newtype senses, confusing that with Spatial Awareness, and then claiming it helps him control his DRAGOON's better when there is no evidence he's actually controlling them in the first place and it's not simply a quantum computer like most suspect it is.

In regards to the argument on Kira's intelligence... you might not have gotten my points exactly right... it's like this...

You think Ulan Hibiki wanted to make parts of Kira better then other coordinators. You've not proven he even had that intention let along Kira has an intelligence above Coordinators...

First, Athrun, Rusty, Nicol, Dearka and Yzak were specialized soldiers of ZAFT to be able to use the proto-type OS of the G-weapons.

First off no. Athrun, Rusty, Nicol, Dearka and Yzak aren't specialized soldiers. They're ZAFT Red's Miguel even remarks they're fresh out of the Academy. They're red-coats because they graduated from the Academy with the best marks in their class, and just like Kira they re-wrote the OS's for their machines before stealing them.

If a normal ZAFT pilot would try to use it, I doubt it'll move.

They are normal ZAFT pilots. They're red-coats fresh out of the Academy. That was stated in the first epsidoe by Miguel.

This means that not all coordinators have the intelligence to reprogram or even use the OS of the Gundams.

>.> Ok, but how are you not proving Kira's intelligence is superior to other coodinators? Even if you want to argue not every coodinator could have done it the problem still remains, that doesn't make Kira vastly more intelligent, then the newbs from the Academy.

Second, because of this, it proves that piloting Gundams and even ordinary mobile suits require a certain level of intelligence.

That's actually not proven by that at all. Given that Green's also pilot mobile suits as well. The GiNN had been in mass production and was fielded by ZAFT before the two year war even started. In fact, Elijah Kiel who was the brains of a Coordintor but the physical skills of a natural can't even keep up other corodinators because of that physical limitation. In fact his poor physical reaction time almost gets him killed against Canard Pars... So piloting is much more then just the brain. >> Your proof = horribly bad.

Now if normal coordinators can't reprogram the OS like what Kira can do

Ok, but you don't know they can't. In fact you just said admitted above it's a giant assumption. The point of a debate is to prover with facts not just demand we assume all your points so you can be right....

or even manipulate it, this means a higher level of intelligence was a gift for Kira.

>.> And this is based on what? The extensive list of coordinators who've been given MS that need to have their OS re-programmed?

Third, I'm NOT arguing that Kira is the MOST INTELLIGENT coordinator... I'm just saying that his level of intelligence was a product of science...

And you have no proof for that at all....

Another example would be Lacus Clyne's voice. Just because she sings so damn good doesn't make her the BEST singing coordinator. That CAN BE just a product of her altered genes and many might still be better.

>.> Again, your argument for Kira's intelligence is based on 100% speculation. You've given no factual supporting evidence to make this conclusion believable in anyway.

Fourth, all I'm saying is that Kira must have been gene-altered to be more intelligent than ordinary coordinators.

Yes, and I'm deamnding you give proof to support that theory... Not just a theory. You can say it all you want but I want you to provide something that might make it true and not just more BS....

Fifth, you might not have gotten my point at not all ZAFT forces being able to use Gundams... what I mean is that they need a specialized corps to do the job because ordinary ZAFT soldiers won't do.

No, they gave the Gundam's to the pilots who graduated top of their class because they were the best soldiers available.

mean, not one have given details as objective as in the Wiki...

As objective? Wiki gave Kira powers he didn't have. >.> How is that objective. And the whole reason Mechatalk is better is because it's a forum of people who know about Gundam. WHo have access to model kit's and can translate Japanese and are knowledgable about the franchise. That's what makes it a better source the answers are coming from identifiable people who good sources all lumped together nicely in one location....

--------------------------------------------------

Bullshit he didn't. He may not be a Newtype, but he's got NT traits out the ass.

Really? He didn't talk to the dead Fukuda confirms as much when he says in his post SEED interview things Fllay wanted to say. Fukuda confrims Mwu and Rau are the only newtypes in CE, his only newtype trait shown was recognizing Neo as Mwu easily something he could have gotten from the similar manner in which the two fight, and Rey = Rau, even though Rey is not Rau and that vision can be sparked by the similarity in the mobile suits... He has good reflexes and has remote weapons which he doesn't control...

Still doesn't mean he deson't have enhanced Spatial Awareness.

His weapons can be used by anyone no spatial awarness needed hence it comes to the conclusion prove he has it. Because the weapons alone don't do that. The idea when making a claim like Kira has Spatial Awareness requires one to follow that claim with evidence. Right now all the evidence points to no, he doesn't because his weapons don't need it to be used.

Bullshit they are, no one even begins to agree with that.

>.> Yes, of course you're so knowledgable as to what others think how could I forget you speak for everyone?

Er. Spatial Awareness is just the ability to sense objects around you, in the space around you. It's not what allows you to control them.

You can't control remote weapons without Spatial awarness, precisely why ZAFT made a DRAGOON system that did not require spatial awareness to function.

Which is why no one has to be a NT to have enhanced Spatial Awareness.

I never said they did, inf act I explaiend they were two different things. The person above was confusing newtype traits with the traits of someone who's spatially aware. Doesn't change the fact Kira has neither, until proven otherwise.

High Spatial Awareness. Bullshit he doesn't have it because it's what allows you to keep up with DRAGOON's that are dashing around everywhere.

>.> Except no, because his DRAGOON's work without spatial awareness, "the Strike Freedom features eight DRAGOON (Disconnected Rapid Armament Group Overlook Operation Network) units. The DRAGOON units housed in the wings utilize an improved quantum communications system, allowing normal pilots without expanded spatial awareness to use them." >> So obviously no, that's not what he uses to make them zip around the battlefield because they're designed to zip around the battlefield on their own. And how is that what allows him to keep up with DRAGOON's considering it was those same spatial-awareness less DRAGOON's that allow fought Rey's Spatial-awareness less DRAGOON's.

Not to mention we've seen pilots who have spatial awareness not be able to dodge DRAGOON's. Did you forget Mwu? Obviously having spatial awarness plays no roll in dodging them as it failed to keep Mwu from losing the limgs of his Strike Grundam against them...

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/zgmf-x20a.htm

LightMaster

04-24-2009, 11:52 PM

That's newtype pre-cognition.

...No. Newtype pre-cognition is when a Newtype senses the intentions of another pilot and is given a premonition based on it. Spatial Awareness is an organized awareness of the objects in the space around us, and also an awareness of our body’s position in space.

Ok, but how are you not proving Kira's intelligence is superior to other coodinators? Even if you want to argue not every coodinator could have done it the problem still remains, that doesn't make Kira vastly more intelligent, then the newbs from the Academy.

He was more intelligent then the Red coats that were piloting the Gundam's outside of him, at least Dearka and Yzak. It took him a few minutes to reprogram Strike to balance, walk, and run on the sand; a few seconds to figure out the problem with his Rifle in the desert, figure out how to fix it, and program in the fix; Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix it. The fact that he could calculate the changes needed in each case means he's more then just a programmer.

Ok, but you don't know they can't. In fact you just said admitted above it's a giant assumption. The point of a debate is to prover with facts not just demand we assume all your points so you can be right....

Eh... but Redcoats can't just up and do it at a moments notice. Yzak and Dearka couldn't, and Nicol was slower with reprogramming his MS in the first episode, so I doubt he's the better of them. I mean, who else can be billed as having designed the Operating System used by every MS of a nation.

Yes, and I'm deamnding you give proof to support that theory... Not just a theory. You can say it all you want but I want you to provide something that might make it true and not just more BS....

Well, he's certainly a top programmer, and you say Andy compares him to some of the Top he knows about. Which puts him in the top at the age of what...15. It amazed Andy enough, his being able to do what he did...so I'm personally going to assume that it was an amazing feat.

Helpoemer07

04-25-2009, 02:32 AM

Red Zaku, I repeat... Spatial awareness is the sense of a person of the objects (both animate and inanimate) around us. Kira has a heightened level of spatial awareness due to the facts that he knows where enemies are coming from and have the time to make his own move. Newtype precognition is a similar yet a little more advantageous as it can sense the intent of people around and come up with possible counter measures. Spatial awareness is only the sense of objects. Example, if you see a flying bat inside a room even if close your eyes you can still feel it hovering over you. A heightened spatial awareness would be the ability to accurately tell even it's distance and route of travel. The difference would be Newtype precognition let's you sense the will of that bat (whether it would attack or not). I really don't want to give proofs since it is supposed to be a fact, but since you are insisting on it... Watch Episode 19 of SEED... When members of the Blue Cosmos fired a rocket launcher, Kira and Andrew were able to sense it possibly due to the sudden interference of the natural space... Ok? (I know... you might say "whooh I'm not satisfied..." so I suggest you just REWATCH the entire series then you'll begin to understand my points and say "ah ok... my bad"...

The NEW DRAGOON system made by ZAFT is COMPUTER manipulated--that is a fact... I never argued on that one (try to read my posts again). This was to let people without having spatial awareness to use the system. But what I was arguing is that Kira's heightened spatial awareness would give him an edge in the battlefield as he would be able to sense enemies moving to and fro around him and thus take necessary precautions (that oh... somebody might shoot me from here... need to change place).

The reason someone who's spatially aware can use the DRAGOON system is because they can guage distance to target and keep track of mutliple small objects at a distance, and know how to surround targets at a distnace. While that sounds easy it's not especially in space where there are few to no objects around in order to help the eyes analyze distance and size.
Wow... we finally agree on something! Hehe... too bad, that's not the only thing spatial awareness does...

No, you've been arguing Kira has newtype senses, confusing that with Spatial Awareness, and then claiming it helps him control his DRAGOON's better when there is no evidence he's actually controlling them in the first place and it's not simply a quantum computer like most suspect it is.
Oops... Drink water my friend... your confusion might just be a result of dehydration (trust me drinking water really works)... I'm not that stupid to confuse it with such... As I've said, try to REWATCH the entire series... You'll then begin to see our side... ^.-

They are normal ZAFT pilots. They're red-coats fresh out of the Academy. That was stated in the first epsidoe by Miguel.
Half-true... They're fresh out of the academy BUT they're no normal ZAFT pilots... They're well-trained and more capable than ordinary ones. They have proven to have talents and abilities that are very much beneficial to military and was given high remarks because of that (proof [*sigh* not again]: In school, are high grades given to everybody? no. they're given to ones who deserve them. those who work hard or simply have the talent or intellect.).

That's actually not proven by that at all. Given that Green's also pilot mobile suits as well. The GiNN had been in mass production and was fielded by ZAFT before the two year war even started. In fact, Elijah Kiel who was the brains of a Coordintor but the physical skills of a natural can't even keep up other corodinators because of that physical limitation. In fact his poor physical reaction time almost gets him killed against Canard Pars... So piloting is much more then just the brain. >> Your proof = horribly bad.

Horribly bad? Now you've pissed me... That's not how one should regard another's arguments... I thought this was a friendly competition... Ok... I'll try to remain calm (coz I still know I'm right)... *deep breath* there i'm fine...
Look, I said that piloting MSes require a certain degree of intelligence, but I never said that being intelligent will make you the best pilot. I never said that intelligence is the only factor. My point is, "are you saying that even cerebral-pulsy victims will be able to use MS?"... You see? One should at least have a proper intellect to such. Another proof? I'll state it in a question... Can ordinary civilian coordinators possibly reprogram the OS of Gundams? you see?

I said that ...I'm NOT arguing that Kira is the MOST INTELLIGENT coordinator... I'm just saying that his level of intelligence was a product of science...
And you said,
And you have no proof for that at all....
Fine... then I'll accept it if you have proof that Prof. Hibiki didn't altered Kira's intelligence... You see? That's one of the conflicts in Seed... Nobody can already tell whether somebody's feats are natural or due to genetic engineering... But since he is a coordinator and the "ultimate" (which means all traits his parents wanted were successfully brought out) one at that... I think it is safe to assume that he was "engineered" to be at a descent intelligence.
Proof of his intelligence: Andy compares him to some of the Top he knows about. Even Erica Siemons who is a chief engineer in ORB (which hosts both Naturals and Coordinators as workers) gives so much credit on Kira's abilities as seen in episode 25 of SEED.

First off no. Athrun, Rusty, Nicol, Dearka and Yzak aren't specialized soldiers. They're ZAFT Red's Miguel even remarks they're fresh out of the Academy. They're red-coats because they graduated from the Academy with the best marks in their class, and just like Kira they re-wrote the OS's for their machines before stealing them.
They were at the top of their class... this is a fact... But let me tell you this... Miguel Aiman is also one of their classmates at the academy, yet he ended up with Green Coat. Why? Because the other's are just a little superior in their abilities. Now, why didn't they just assign him to do the job of stealing one of the G-weapons just like Athrun and the others? It's because the 5 of them are just better than him in doing that. They can reprogram the OS a little faster than them, they can manipulate the weapons better than them... Coz their abilities are just a cut above him. This might have (ok an assumption... but so? at least it's logical) made them worthy of acquiring better trainings (this is what I meant on being specialized).
Proof: ZAFT was pre-informed of the possible manufacturing of EAF of MS at Helipolis. This prompted them to send out their best soldiers (taken from your statement) that are capable of handling the job. See the point?

How can you say that Wiki gave Kira powers that he DOESN'T have? Oh, I know... Because there were NO reports of such in other sites... Hmmm... But in these sites, are there any statements that Kira DOESN'T have them? Or you are just ASSUMING that because there were no statements, those abilities didn't exist. Let me say this, Wiki might not be the MOST reliable source, but it's reliable enough to be trusted. The skills written there might have been observations by various sources of Wiki. How can you be so sure that these sources know NOTHING of Gundams? How about the forums you are talking about? If they're just like us who knows and loves Gundam, how can they be more reliable... They're humans too. They too can be biased and assume things. See?

Now, if you still want more proofs, go ahead and REVIEW the entire series... Only then will you agree with us... I'm hoping you won't get so hard-headed and try to desperately protect your pride. You are knowledgeable in Gundams as much as we are and we all love Gundams... We are all the same here... no one is blaming you even if you have the wrong concepts understood. No one is laughing at you just because you were defeated... This is just a friendly competition and my side just happen to have more sparkling ideas than you do. Don't let it get to you. Everythings alright... Coz at the end of everything, we will all be shouting:

HOORAY GUNDAMS!!!:wink

Red Zaku

04-25-2009, 03:19 AM

...No. Newtype pre-cognition is when a Newtype senses the intentions of another pilot and is given a premonition based on it. Spatial Awareness is an organized awareness of the objects in the space around us, and also an awareness of our body’s position in space.

You seem to be missing the point that he's describing sensing the people around him with is a newtype trait. He's implying Kira can sense when someone is going to attack him and from where and chalks this up as a trait of Spatial Awareness. Not to mention the use of the word sense is wrong because Kira senses nothing. He knows the position of objects in space if he has said gift and nothing suggests he does since the only things that ever implied he did the DRAGOON's operate off a system that doesn't require it at all.

He was more intelligent then the Red coats that were piloting the Gundam's outside of him, at least Dearka and Yzak.[/quoted]

Based on what? Nicol came up with a brilliant plan to assualt the Umbrella of Artemis, that takes down the entire station, all of the pilots re-program their OS's. The only thing abundantly clear is they don't match Kira in piloting skill and that's fairly suspect since none of their machines are as versatile or agile as Strike.

[quote]It took him a few minutes to reprogram Strike to balance, walk, and run on the sand;

It took seconds for all but Rusty who was shot to re-write the OS for their Gundam's and fly off. What's your point?

a few seconds to figure out the problem with his Rifle in the desert, figure out how to fix it,

He didn't fix it. He simply corrected it so the problem would delay itself, because it was created by the heat of the Desert Sand.

and program in the fix; Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix it.

Yzak's machine has an extra 20 tons of armor it's frame wasn't built to support. No amount of OS re-writing is going to change the fact the unit was only designed to displace the weight of 60 some metric tons not a full 80+ that that Assault Shroud features, and the Buster Gundam is designed to be a long range support MS. It was never intended to be mobile and as such doesn't have or require the balancing systems Strike does especially when it has to worry about absorbing the shock from it's weaponry which is why it has those "boxs" on the knee-joints.

The fact that he could calculate the changes needed in each case means he's more then just a programmer.

>.> No, that's exactly what it means. He's a good programmer because that's what he did. He programmed the suit. Even then note Andy is impressed with how fast he adjusts not because he's super smart but because he thought the pilot was a natural, suggesting that it's not an impressive feat for a coordinator.

Eh... but Redcoats can't just up and do it at a moments notice.

>.> They did so. It took them seconds to fix re-write the OS for the units they stole and fly off.

Yzak and Dearka couldn't,

Yzak had a mobile suit with 20 extra tons it wasn't designed to carry and Dearka is in an MS that's not focused on agility. They couldn't because of the limitations of the MS they were using, not because they can't program, they obviously can they re-wrote their mobile suit's OS' just like Kira.

and Nicol was slower with reprogramming his MS in the first episode, so I doubt he's the better of them.

So basically evidence for Kira being super smart relies on him being a good programmer which he did for a living with programming the CE equivalent of Junior mobiles?

I mean, who else can be billed as having designed the Operating System used by every MS of a nation.

>.> Kira didn't design it. He simply added missing components to an OS Orb already made. And it's not every nation either it's just Orb, the EA didn't have access to the data Kira finishes writing for Morgenreote until well after they'd already begun mass producing mobile suits. In fact the Natural Use OS for the EA comes from the Duel, and Long Dagger units. Jean Carrey, along with the Socius clones help gather test data for a Natural use OS. And the majority of Orb's natural use OS was written by Orb. It was installed in the Astray Red Frame, and then given back to Orb when Lowe goes to Morgenreote for upgrades to Red Frame.

Well, he's certainly a top programmer,

I'd hope so, he did it for a living along with Sai, and Kuzzy. In fact he first appears working with them on developing programming for a Junior Mobile they're working on.

and you say Andy compares him to some of the Top he knows about.

Andy says he might be up there with top tier Coordiantors when it comes to his smarts. Keywords being might be. He never really displays as such, and his mid-fight OS re-programming only impressed Andy because it showed Kira wasn't a Natural which is what he was expecting. Note the argument on the floor is Kira surpasses Coordinator intelligence because Hibiki made him that way. Not only is there zero evidence for him surpassing Coordinator level intelligence there is zero evidence Hibiki wanted him that way....

Which puts him in the top at the age of what...15. It amazed Andy enough, his being able to do what he did...

Andy was surprised because he found out the pilot wasn't a natural, saying something along the lines of "adjusting that quickly? The pilot must be a coordinator." Showing surprise that the pilot was a coordinator not that that the adjustment itself was outstanding..

Red Zaku

04-25-2009, 04:43 AM

Half-true... They're fresh out of the academy BUT they're no normal ZAFT pilots...

They have no training beyond what the Academy teaches. Them being Reds is because they graduated with the highest marks int he Academy's offered courses.

They're well-trained and more capable than ordinary ones.

No they're not. Nicol alone proves that. They're ZAFT Red's because they graduated from the Academy with top marks. No more no less.

They have proven to have talents and abilities that are very much beneficial to military and was given high remarks because of that (proof [*sigh* not again]:

>.> Proof? Because nothing says or suggests that at all. ZAFT Red's simply graduated with the best marks of their class.

In school, are high grades given to everybody? no. they're given to ones who deserve them. those who work hard or simply have the talent or intellect.)

That of course does not give them a level of training beyond the common soldier. It's the same training they simply scored higher. Having the same training as a standard grunt, and getting higher marks does not and never will make you automatically more capable then a common soldier who's seen his way though more then a few battles. One need only look at Nicol's piloting skills to see that.

Horribly bad? Now you've pissed me... That's not how one should regard another's arguments...

So I should not regard bad arguments as bad? Why the hell wouldn't I?

quote]I thought this was a friendly competition... Ok...[/quote]

Hows does friendly debate = a person can't have a bad argument? It doesn't? Hm...

I'll try to remain calm (coz I still know I'm right)... *deep breath* there i'm fine...

Gotta love that attitude. You're not out to debate just force your opinion on others til they argee with it, even if it has no backing.

Look, I said that piloting MSes require a certain degree of intelligence, but I never said that being intelligent will make you the best pilot. I never said that intelligence is the only factor.

You tried to suggest Kira's dominance over the Red's was due to his intelligence when Kira wasn't even that creative fighting them. The vast majority of the time he held a seirous advantage, and or had support that kept it to an easy to manage 1 on1 and generally that meant he was fighting Athrun who wasn't out to kill him and obviously restraining himself so he could try and convince Kira to join ZAFT.... You ignored a vast number of other factors and seemed to imply it was do to him being smarter... Like I said, horrible argument.

My point is, "are you saying that even cerebral-pulsy victims will be able to use MS?"...

>.> Your point is horrible then because you're going to the most inane argument ever, trying to disprove what I say by taking it to an illogical extreme is laughable. Kira does not have super intelligence because he can pilot an MS. Just like a Jet Fighter pilot is not Einstein simply because he passed an IQ test which made him eligible to fly. Hell, Kira piloting an MS doesn't suggest he's smarter then even a Natural as even Naturals can operate MS.

You see?

No, I don't largely because you took an argumet to such an extreme that it became a logical fallacy. Not only did you break out the fallacy of an irrelevent conclusion, but you ignored the point that Kira piloting an MS is not proof Kira is smart, which is also a Non Sequitur.

One should at least have a proper intellect to such.

Look, I appreciate the poorly guised ad hominem's that's you've been tossiing out by subtly suggesting you're right because I didn't watch the series but sadly, I did. I'm also not wrong simply because your conclusion is a Non Sequitur. You cannot prove Kira is smart because he pilots an MS, as there is no known criteria for the intelligence of a pilot.

Another proof?

The first one wasn't proof, it's a non sequitur. You've not established Kira as being smart simply because he can pilot. A person of average intelligence can likely pilot a mobile suit, and there is no known criteria for the intelligence of a pilot in Gundam SEED. Hence saying simply because a mentally handicapped individual can't pilot doesn't prove only people of exceptional minds can.

I'll state it in a question... Can ordinary civilian coordinators possibly reprogram the OS of Gundams? you see?

Yes. Coordinators not labeled as the ultimate coordinator have been shown programming their OS. The EA a collection of Natural's designed their onw, and Lowe Gear did the same.

I said that ...I'm NOT arguing that Kira is the MOST INTELLIGENT coordinator... I'm just saying that his level of intelligence was a product of science...

Which Kira piloting a mobile suit doesn't prove. Kira being smart does not prove his genes were altered to make him incredibly smart. Both of your supporting facts are non sequiturs which do not support the conclusion you've reached. Being smart doesn't prove science or Hibiki wanted or intended him to be that way, and opperating an MS does not prove he's smart either.

And you said,
Fine... then I'll accept it if you have proof that Prof. Hibiki didn't altered Kira's intelligence... You see?

No, once again you're countering with a logical fallacy, you're begging the question earliar by using several non-sequiturs as evidence, and now you're doing it again. You're arguing Hibiki most have made Kira super smart, because nothing suggests he didn't. You've supplied nothing that suggests he did. Your reasoning is a collection of formal fallacies lumped together in the worst attempt at reasoning I've had the displeasure of reading. The worst part is, is that you seem to insanely sure of yourself that you've developed a wonderfully snide subtext to your posts.

That's one of the conflicts in Seed... Nobody can already tell whether somebody's feats are natural or due to genetic engineering...

>.> All feats are natural as stated in SEED the engineering only gives Corodiantors a higher potential the Coordinator still has to put in the work to tap that potential. Which makes it even less likely Hibiki made Kira super smart....

But since he is a coordinator and the "ultimate" (which means all traits his parents wanted were successfully brought out) one at that... I think it is safe to assume that he was "engineered" to be at a descent intelligence.

Based on? Non Sequiturs and arguments which beg the question? It's not safe to assume anything least of all when your evidence doesn't prove your conclusion.

Proof of his intelligence: Andy compares him to some of the Top he knows about. Even Erica Siemons who is a chief engineer in ORB (which hosts both Naturals and Coordinators as workers) gives so much credit on Kira's abilities as seen in episode 25 of SEED.

Eric Simmons recounts what Kira does in a flash back episode, she never praises it in a manner thant qauntifies just how smart Kira is. Only Andy does so with his comment, and even then it does not prove your argument that he's smart because he was engineered to be so beyond what a normal Coordinator would have been given.

They were at the top of their class... this is a fact... But let me tell you this... Miguel Aiman is also one of their classmates at the academy, yet he ended up with Green Coat. Why?

He ends up showing a better set of piloting skilsl then Nicol... He even manages to fight Gai Murakumo, which is why Miguel's custom GiNN was damaged and he sortied with aregular one in the first Episode of SEED. Theory and practice does not relate to actual combat. Being good at theory does not make you good in practical application.

Because the other's are just a little superior in their abilities.

No, the others had better handle of the htoery presented at the Academy. They got good grades because they were good witht he material. How well did that pan out in practice? Rusty dies, Nicol can't take down a battleship, and Miguel ends up showing more skill in combat in just two fights then Nicol, and even Dearka will display during the entire show.

Now, why didn't they just assign him to do the job of stealing one of the G-weapons just like Athrun and the others?

Because he and Rau were the only ace mobile suit combatants on the whole ship and they would be needed to distract the colonies guard forces, and cause a suitable distraction to allow the Gundam's to be stolen in the first place.

It's because the 5 of them are just better than him in doing that.

In doing what? Firing a machine gun? Nicol wasn't very good at that, was it anti-MS combat? Impossible only Miguel had prior experience with Gai Murakumo's Ginn...

They can reprogram the OS a little faster than them, they can manipulate the weapons better than them...

The pilots were shocked that the OS's were so bad when they started up their machines. They weren't expecting to have to re-program them. So that can't be why Miguel wasn't part of the team jacking the Gundam's. And manupulate weaposn better then Miguel? Miguel has combat experience with an MS and no one knows how the GAT-X machines operate. Hence no one knows how they'll aim. the reason Miguel and Rau don't do it is because Miguel, and Rau are aces and the only two named characters with anti-MS and MA combat under their belts. Hence it makes them the best cover for the hi-jackers, and the best men to run the distraction.

Red Zaku

04-25-2009, 04:43 AM

How can you say that Wiki gave Kira powers that he DOESN'T have?

Because there is no proof he's got spatial awareness. None. At all. Anywhere. The claim was based on S-Freedom having DRAGOON's and it was made before the official model kit booklet caused everyone to realize you didn't need it to use those DRAGOON's. That's why.

Oh, I know... Because there were NO reports of such in other sites...

No official documentation either. In fact the only thing that suggested he did turned out to suggest he probably didn't. He uses a DRAGOON system that doesn't require spatial awareness. If he was spatially aware, that little bit wouldn't even be needed. Remember the S-Freedom's blue-prints were t'weaked for Kira's personal use after all.

Hmmm... But in these sites, are there any statements that Kira DOESN'T have them?

So you're arguing Kira is spatially aware because no one says he isn't? But that's not even true Bandai said he wasn't when they said his DRAGOON's didn't require it to function.

Or you are just ASSUMING that because there were no statements, those abilities didn't exist.

Certianly there's potential but his weapons don't require it. You proof he's spatially aware si that he can dodge.... I'm going to say no. You've not adequitely illustrated he has spatial awareness, and the only proof her ever did were the DRAGOON's that doesn't require the trait to function according to the specs....

It's not RELIABLE AT ALL. Unless you'd also like to suggest Orihime's profession was a slut because Wiki said so...

[quote]but it's reliable enough to be trusted.

Again, it's not. The information is being edited by people who have no accountability for what they place down. Hence they can make gundam wiki say whatever they choose, and don't have to source anything. It's completely unreliable. To suggest it's good enough is just patently false.

The skills written there might have been observations by various sources of Wiki.

Of course they should be from legit sources like published information from Sunrise, it's not like it doesn't exist, it's everywhere. Sunrise itself has never said Kira has spatial aawareness either. In fact they made the specs for S-Freedom and they made it so his DRAGOON's didn't even require the trait to function.

How can you be so sure that these sources know NOTHING of Gundams?

Because there is no accountability for the information that get's posted and some of it is directly copy and pasted off of fan-sites which do even less fact checking. The idea wiki is reliable source of information for anything that can be considered non-mainstream is sort of laughable.

How about the forums you are talking about? If they're just like us who knows and loves Gundam, how can they be more reliable... They're humans too.[/quotes]

Humans with first hand sources and information that they can directly back up. The opposite of wiki which operates completely anonymously, making it impossible to actually check anything that's featured on the site except for things that are sourced which is only handful of the articles content in a majority of cases.

[quote]They too can be biased and assume things. See?

Of course if they do so they can be singled out and thus you can build up a reputation who's giving out truthworthy information. The same cannot be said of Wiki....

Now, if you still want more proofs, go ahead and REVIEW the entire series...

A review of how muched the reviewer liked the whole series will prove Kira is spatially aware? What

LightMaster

04-25-2009, 11:21 AM

You seem to be missing the point that he's describing sensing the people around him with is a newtype trait. He's implying Kira can sense when someone is going to attack him and from where and chalks this up as a trait of Spatial Awareness. Not to mention the use of the word sense is wrong because Kira senses nothing. He knows the position of objects in space if he has said gift and nothing suggests he does since the only things that ever implied he did the DRAGOON's operate off a system that doesn't require it at all.

Spatial Awareness isn't required to sense the presence and position of DRAGOON's, generally speaking if you need it to sense where they are to attack... you'd probably need it to sense where they are to defend.

It took seconds for all but Rusty who was shot to re-write the OS for their Gundam's and fly off. What's your point?

It took Nicol longer, he was the last one to finish up.

He didn't fix it. He simply corrected it so the problem would delay itself, because it was created by the heat of the Desert Sand.

... He fixed the problem, the problem was the ambient heat of the desert messing with the beams trajectory(IIRC), so he fixed the Strike's targeting computer so it would display the correct data.

Yzak's machine has an extra 20 tons of armor it's frame wasn't built to support. No amount of OS re-writing is going to change the fact the unit was only designed to displace the weight of 60 some metric tons not a full 80+ that that Assault Shroud features, and the Buster Gundam is designed to be a long range support MS. It was never intended to be mobile and as such doesn't have or require the balancing systems Strike does especially when it has to worry about absorbing the shock from it's weaponry which is why it has those "boxs" on the knee-joints.

You're bullshitting, and bullshitting hard. The Duel can't balance and displace the Assault Shroud's weight, then it should fall over, collapse or hunch over when it stands, period. Except Yzak enjoys the ability of outright hop-scotching off of his Guul and crashing into the ground without blowing out his legs, or anything to make anyone think it can't support, balance and displace it's 100+ ton weight. ALL MS have a Balance system, or else they'd tumble over whenever they lifted a foot for a step, or it's questionable if they'd even last that long. As for Buster, if anything, it should have a more substantial Balancing System since it's weapons are constantly trying to knock it on it's ass.

They ALL have the same baseline OS. Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix the flippin' problems, don't bullshit to make it seem like they couldn't have because they're MS couldn't.

No, that's exactly what it means. He's a good programmer because that's what he did. He programmed the suit. Even then note Andy is impressed with how fast he adjusts not because he's super smart but because he thought the pilot was a natural, suggesting that it's not an impressive feat for a coordinator.

It doesn't suggest that at all, it suggests that Andy didn't know he was Natural. It suggests that a Natural wouldn't have been able to do it so fast. Plus you have to be more then a good programmer to figure out why your MS is slipping on the sand, him figuring out how to fix it then figuring out how to program the fix in is pretty fucking impressive.

They did so. It took them seconds to fix re-write the OS for the units they stole and fly off.

And you're assuming they didn't train before hand because...? They knew they'd have to fix it, so why not train before hand? They never did it on the fly, like I said...Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix their balance problems.

Yzak had a mobile suit with 20 extra tons it wasn't designed to carry and Dearka is in an MS that's not focused on agility. They couldn't because of the limitations of the MS they were using, not because they can't program, they obviously can they re-wrote their mobile suit's OS' just like Kira.

Bull-fucking-shit. This isn't a question of Mobility, this is a question of basic balance. They all have it because they can all fucking stay upright. They don't need to be able to run, or do triple-axles on the desert sand- no, they couldn't even WALK normally. And that's just basic, they all have a balancing program, no different from Strike's. Yzak and Dearka couldn't fix the g'damned problem.

So basically evidence for Kira being super smart relies on him being a good programmer which he did for a living with programming the CE equivalent of Junior mobiles?

You're point is what exactly, that because he went to school for it he can't be super smart. That doesn't make any sense, every Coordinator goes to school, every genius ever has some kind of education, information isn't just given to them by some divine being. He was 15 and writing and OS for a whole nations Mobile Suit corp's, he did what an entire development company couldn't do. Made a working Natural OS, and he did it in what... a day?

Kira didn't design it. He simply added missing components to an OS Orb already made. And it's not every nation either it's just Orb, the EA didn't have access to the data Kira finishes writing for Morgenreote until well after they'd already begun mass producing mobile suits.

I said every MS of a Nation, genius. As in every MS used by ONE, Singular, Nation. As in ORB.

I'd hope so, he did it for a living along with Sai, and Kuzzy. In fact he first appears working with them on developing programming for a Junior Mobile they're working on.

He didn't do shit for a living, he was a student. They were all students, not employees.

Andy says he might be up there with top tier Coordiantors when it comes to his smarts. Keywords being might be. He never really displays as such, and his mid-fight OS re-programming only impressed Andy because it showed Kira wasn't a Natural which is what he was expecting. Note the argument on the floor is Kira surpasses Coordinator intelligence because Hibiki made him that way. Not only is there zero evidence for him surpassing Coordinator level intelligence there is zero evidence Hibiki wanted him that way....

Oh, I thought this was about Kira being just really fucking smart all together... Really no evidence he's above everybody else. That'd be kind of gay even...he's not even 20 yet.

Red Zaku

04-26-2009, 03:41 AM

Spatial Awareness isn't required to sense the presence and position of DRAGOON's, generally speaking if you need it to sense where they are to attack... you'd probably need it to sense where they are to defend.

Based on? Characters with spatial awarness got own'd by them so I'm going to assume no, you don't need spatial awareness to dodge them or Mwu wouldn't have gotten utterly crushed. Neither would Rey since he had newtype powers being a Rau clone and all. Characters who we know for a fact do have spatial awareness did not dodge them so it's clearly not required.

It took Nicol longer, he was the last one to finish up.

And? Your argument is what then? He's a better programmer then Nicol? I should hope so Kira was programming for small scale mobile suits as part of his work on Heliopolis. He's working with the exact same concepts on a simply larger scale....

... He fixed the problem, the problem was the ambient heat of the desert messing with the beams trajectory(IIRC), so he fixed the Strike's targeting computer so it would display the correct data.

He fixed it to auto aim for him to work better we know... I even said that. He didn't correct the problem of the beam hooking he adjusts the computer so it accountered for that. Which is not a hugely impressive feat given that people can do it manually... In fact that's the entire point of sniping except they can make the adjustment ont eh first shot a vast majority of the time. The calculations are not impossible for a normal person to do, or do them quickly either so here he's just programming something into a computer a person of somewhat above average intelligence can do. That's not distinct proof he's smarter then a coordinator, nor is it distinct proof it's above average intelligence for Coordinators... And even if that was proof of above average intelligence it still doesn't mean Ulan Hibiki genetically engineered him to be that way. >.> You've just taken a bunch of non-sequiturs and strung them together to try and make a point that ultimately proves nothing.

You're bullshitting, and bullshitting hard. The Duel can't balance and displace the Assault Shroud's weight, then it should fall over,

>.> Umm, who said it counldn't ballance the weight and displace it? No one. I do believe I said it couldn't do it properly because it was never designed to carry that extra weight. The idea that Duel's construction can perfectly account for an add-on it was never intended or designed to carry is silly, and Duel's base frame recieved no upgrades. Sure it can displace the weight but being able to do it enough to function and being able to do it perfectly are two different concepts.

collapse or hunch over when it stands, period.

That'd be true if I ever said it couldn't do it at all. I made the claim it couldn't do it well. Certainly not well enough to have it move efficently over loose sand. Especially when Duel's Assault Shroud was designed to use the jets added to the legs as locomotion and not walking. Which should be enough to tell you right there it can't evenly disperse the weight of the add-on's properly.

Except Yzak enjoys the ability of outright hop-scotching off of his Guul and crashing into the ground without blowing out his legs, or anything to make anyone think it can't support, balance and displace it's 100+ ton weight.

Ever think that might have been do to the fact Duel had 6 rocket engines mounted on the leg's to help take the weight off of those landings and ultimatley aid it's movement because the frame can't compensate for the added weight on it's own? Hell, it wasn't even just the leg's the entire back-pack adds a huge array of thrusters because Duel's engines can't compensate for the added weight alone either.

ALL MS have a Balance system, or else they'd tumble over whenever they lifted a foot for a step, or it's questionable if they'd even last that long.

Except the balance system was thrown out of whack by tossing more shit onto the Duel. So o they solved it by adding six thrusters on the legs, because they help take the load off the joints by firing inorder to relieve stress to the frame. That's how it compensates for the added weight. I mean, can you keep balance when you've got an additional 80lb packpack lashed onto you? I bet you could but you'd struggle to do it a great deal. As everything would become harder as you try to compensate for the added weight. Could you walk and move? Certainly. Could you do it to the same degree as you could completely un-hindered? Hell no. The exact same concept applies here to the Duel. It's not enough weight to crush it's joints, it is enough weight to negatively affect the units performence and mobility, along with it's agility. Precisely why a crap ton of extra thrusters were added to make up for the fact Duel struggles to walk....

As for Buster, if anything, it should have a more substantial Balancing System since it's weapons are constantly trying to knock it on it's ass.

That's precisely why Buster uses springs mounted in key locations on it's frame to deazl witht he recoil of it's weapons package. Not to mention Duel is a primarily a sniper style MS and most of it's werapon design seems to have been done so witht he idea it would be shooting from a stable position. How Dearka uses Buster is essentially the anti-thesis of the units design.

They ALL have the same baseline OS.

Yes, and all PC's use Windows that doesn't change the fact the programs on Windows varry from PC to PC. Same applies here, they all use the same base OS but they're all intended for completely different combat rolls so they'll share some programs and other programs will be completely different. Buster is not a machine intended for close range fighting, nor highly-mobile hit and run combat. There is no reason for the Buster to have the same kind of mobility, or programs to manage it's weight displacement as there are for Strike.

Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix the flippin' problems, don't bullshit to make it seem like they couldn't have because they're MS couldn't.

Yes, because they were both piloting the Strike too. Making legit points about the differences in the machines creating a difference in operation has no baring on adjusting for mobility on Sand at all apparently. Then again according to you, adding 20 tons of extra armor had no disadvantage to Duel at all, simply because it's joints didn't buckle....

It doesn't suggest that at all, it suggests that Andy didn't know he was Natural. It suggests that a Natural wouldn't have been able to do it so fast.

>.> Which surprises Andy because he thought it was a natural pilot. Andy wouldn't be surprised if he was expecting a coordinator as his quote implies it's not super impossible for a coordiantor to make that change so fast. He was expecting a natural pilot.

Plus you have to be more then a good programmer to figure out why your MS is slipping on the sand,

>.> Really? Common sense would tell me if my MS is sliding on a surface it's weight is probably not displacing well enough to keep it from sliding....

him figuring out how to fix it then figuring out how to program the fix in is pretty fucking impressive.

Not when you consider he was programming OS for small scale MS when he was on heliopolis. The basic calcualations for adjusting displacement values would only be altered by the increased weight of Strike.... contrary to popular belief the mechanics of making a small robot walk, and city sized one walk aren't vastly different mathmatically. And that's all it is, math.

And you're assuming they didn't train before hand because...?

Because ZAFT had no intel on the operating system of the enemy mobile suits. Making it damn impossible to prep a remotely accurate simulation of the kind of thing they'd be working with. Even if they did simulate re-writing the OS before the mission went underway, they'd only be able to work with a modified version of a Coordinator OS.

They knew they'd have to fix it, so why not train before hand? They never did it on the fly, like I said...Dearka and Yzak couldn't fix their balance problems.

Dearka and Yzak are in two completely different machines then Strike both of which have handicap's working against them in the Desert that you're all to happy to write off. But if Yzak is such a horrible programmer I have to question why in the Side Story, Housenka yzak is able to diagnose the problem with the power displacement of Shiho's CGue DEEP Arms Type so easily?

Bull-fucking-shit. This isn't a question of Mobility, this is a question of basic balance.

Moving on sand is not a question of mobility? Balance is not part of mobility? Hmm....

They all have it because they can all fucking stay upright.

There is a difference between the ability to stand and walk, and the abilityt to stand and walk without diffculty. Walk with an 80lb packk on, and you can both stand and walk fine. You however will not be as light on your feet, or as well balanced. Your entire body will have much more sluggish reactions and you'll find on soft surfaces you sink deeper into them because your body is spreadin more weight over a smaller surface. Duel encounters those same problems because of it's assualt shroud. There is aboslutely nothing wrong with the logic I presented just a stubborn refusal to acknowledge it because it makes Kira look better then two characters who are in completely different MS... It's like suggesting a 32GB hard drive computer that runs Vista = 320Gb hard drive computer that runs vista...

Red Zaku

04-26-2009, 03:41 AM

They don't need to be able to run, or do triple-axles on the desert sand-

Why in gods name wouldn't they need to walk and run on sand to be able to fight evenly with the Strike? Also why would they need to cartwheel when Strike can't?

no, they couldn't even WALK normally. And that's just basic, they all have a balancing program, no different from Strike's.

Based on? Oh they share the same OS.... Again, I point out the PC analogy. Having Windows Vista does not mean you have a Roxio Easy DVD creator program. You have programs for the components your computer supports. Same concept here, Buster, and Duel are not going to have the same programs Strike has, they don't need it.

Yzak and Dearka couldn't fix the g'damned problem.

They have completely different machines which are obviously not the Strike. Meaning the steps to solve the same problem are likely totally unique. If they can be solved at all on those machines.

You're point is what exactly, that because he went to school for it he can't be super smart.

Actually that you'd expect someone who went to school and was educated on programming to be good at programming. Being better at programming alone doesnt prove in anyway shape or form intelligence relative to anyone eslee even if they themselves can't program...

That doesn't make any sense, every Coordinator goes to school, every genius ever has some kind of education, information isn't just given to them by some divine being.

Excelling in certain subjects in school does not make you more intelligent over all then someone else....It makes you better in that field. It is not a mark of superior overall intelligence because there is more than that, that goes into intelligence.

He was 15 and writing and OS for a whole nations Mobile Suit corp's,

Again, he didn't write the OS he filled in gaps in the programming on an OS Morgenreote already made...You're giving Kira credit for something he didn't do. You're saying Kira did something he fundamentally did not do.

he did what an entire development company couldn't do.

They'd already done it.... The OS Kira encounters when he steps into Strike is a poorly functioning natural use OS which he modified into something only a Coordinator could use.... Morgenreote already developed the OS Kira just made it Natural user friendly.

Made a working Natural OS, and he did it in what... a day?

Because he didn't make it Morgenreote did, he simply made it user accessable for a natural because he had combat experience in the Sterike to fill in the programming gaps that would make it function for a natural.... Not to mention a week or actually went by continuity wise...

I said every MS of a Nation, genius. As in every MS used by ONE, Singular, Nation. As in ORB.

And you're still wrong. Morgenreote made the OS Kira just added the programming to make it natural user friendly. It's also not the singular OS either it was just the natural use version. Orb already had one for Coordinators.

Oh, I thought this was about Kira being just really fucking smart all together... Really no evidence he's above everybody else. That'd be kind of gay even...he's not even 20 yet.

The claim was Kira is smarter then a majority of coordinators and was engineered so by Hibiki there is nothing in SEED supporting that notion at all.

Helpoemer07

04-26-2009, 07:19 AM

I'm really tired on this game of tag-of-war... it seems you nor I really wants to give up. I will not give up yet I want to finish this as soon as possible already.

Coordinators ARE genetically modified humans. This means that their genes are altered. There may be no proofs that Kira's genes were altered to surpass Coordinator-intelligence level... And besides, that's NOT what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that his intelligence can be greatly acknowledge even in the PLANTS. Something that normal-level of intelligence coordinators CAN'T do. ORB's a NEUTRAL nation which means they're able to witness the greatness of coordinators as workers everyday. Erica wasn't directly saying that Kira's intelligence is highly commendable yet the way she addresses Kira's intelligence both in and out of the battlefield is something we can ASSUME (yes an assumption... take it against me again) that she is acknowledging the great intellect a 15-year old posses.

That of course does not give them a level of training beyond the common soldier. It's the same training they simply scored higher. Having the same training as a standard grunt, and getting higher marks does not and never will make you automatically more capable then a common soldier who's seen his way though more then a few battles. One need only look at Nicol's piloting skills to see that.
It gives them the credit. AND BESIDES, I am assuming (yes, another one of my assumptions... don't worry. at least they're logical for people with common sense... hey, don't let it get to you.) that Rau Le Creuset IS an INTELLIGENT-ENOUGH Commander to think things through BEFORE taking actions. If they were going to pilot UNKNOWN Mobile Suits then at least they have to send pilots that are well capable. OR maybe you are claiming that coordinators are just that great that WITHOUT proper training, they CAN STILL do feats IMPOSSIBLE to naturals. Hmmm... But wait a sec, I think I know of a dialogue similar to this... Oh! Now I remember... Kira said coordinators are just like naturals... They are mere potentials... Oh... That explains-no, not your side.

Hmmm... Red coats DOES mean that they're students with the TOP marks... I'm not arguing you're wrong. I'm just saying that without having some kind of a special training they can't possibly have piloted the Gundams outright...

Here's a logical proof for both Kira's intellectual COMPETENCE and the Red coats possible TRAINING:
The MBF-M1 Astray in ORB was being test-driven by mere NATURALS (kindly look it up... not so sure whether they're coordinators but most probably they're Naturals)... Look if Coordinators in ORB, "SCIENTISTS and ENGINEERS at that" cannot reprogram or modify their OS to suit Naturals and Coordinators alike, without somekind of "A LITTLE" superior intelligence on Kira's part, it wouldn't have been possible for him to BEAT fellow coordinators. Now if it's a little hard for coordinators to pilot such a complex OS, why don't they just utilize some coordinators in their country to pilot them and possibly "modify" it themselves? (Ok, the next one is an assumption but just let it be... it's logical anyways) I will ASSUME that some refugees from ZAFT are also pilots or possibly graduates from the academy... Why don't they just look for them and possibly ask their help to reprogram the OS? If there's no special training to do such then the knowledge is quite for public use! Then there's no reason for ORB to not gain such a knowledge since it's a neutral nation...

Now, is does that satisfy you? (I'm hoping and keeping my fingers crossed, but there's a high possibility you're not... *sigh* this'll go on forever.

In regards to the Wiki issue...
You said,
So you're arguing Kira is spatially aware because no one says he isn't? But that's not even true Bandai said he wasn't when they said his DRAGOON's didn't require it to function.
You're doing the same thing... ASSUMING that is... So you're arguing Kira is NOT spatially aware because Bandai doesn't say he is? (brought the question back to you)... Look, No one said he doesn't. Yet Wiki said he does. That gave me the reason to use that as an argument since NO other OFFICIAL SITE said he doesn't... You see? (nope I'm guessing you still don't).

It's not RELIABLE AT ALL. Unless you'd also like to suggest Orihime's profession was a slut because Wiki said so...
Really? Wiki said that? Hmmm... even if that's true there must be some kind of a valid explanation for that. Possibly it was some kind of an exaggerated description or something. But even so, that doesn't prove Wiki to be unreliable.

Of course if they do so they can be singled out and thus you can build up a reputation who's giving out truthworthy information. The same cannot be said of Wiki....
Nope... the same can be said in Wiki... References are placed at the lower portion of the site. Although it's a little different in Gundam Wiki coz there's no such portion... Yet, try to think about it. If Wiki will just accept even the worse of worst articles, it'll end up with their reputation stained (like what you're thinking about Wiki). This will make them lose money from advertisers because this will cause them to lose integrity. But before the worst-case scenario for Wiki happens, they have time to think about the users comments and change their articles for the better. But in such case, Wiki have not removed that part of Kira's abilities. This maybe due to their OWN reliable sources saying that IT is possible and "best-case scenario" maybe from people from Bandai/Sunrise themselves.

Gotta love that attitude. You're not out to debate just force your opinion on others til they argee with it, even if it has no backing.
Nope, I'm not forcing my opinion on you. I'm just replying coz you still keep on coming. Now, if you still think you're right then that's fine with me. But I'll also STAND FIRM in my CONVICTION no matter what arguments/proofs you throw at me. I'll just eat them all up and add them to my databank. Then I'll try to rebut them in my head and say "I have a counter for that". And it'll become an endless process... *sigh* how I wish for this to end already.

Humans with first hand sources and information that they can directly back up. The opposite of wiki which operates completely anonymously, making it impossible to actually check anything that's featured on the site except for things that are sourced which is only handful of the articles content in a majority of cases.
Hey, they can't simply be just anonymous. Wiki has a log in system. And they can easily single out those with bad contributions. The same with FORUMS...

Of course they should be from legit sources like published information from Sunrise, it's not like it doesn't exist, it's everywhere. Sunrise itself has never said Kira has spatial aawareness either. In fact they made the specs for S-Freedom and they made it so his DRAGOON's didn't even require the trait to function.
They made the specs like that solely because that's the LATEST update for DRAGOON system. It wouldn't seem right for the "lead" character to have a system that is outdated. This might have been a conflict on whether they want Rey to have DRAGOON or not. Yet it wouldn't seem right if Rey doesn't have DRAGOONs cause he's supposed to resemble Rau. So they must have decided to make the DRAGOONs computerized but leaving an argument whether Kira has spatial awareness or not. See? You're argument IS also ambiguous.

A review of how muched the reviewer liked the whole series will prove Kira is spatially aware? What
? Didn't quite get what your last sentence mean. Ok, I'll just explain my side. I'm imploring you to review or rewatch the entire series coz I'm tired of thinking for scenes that'll prove you wrong... Just go and watch the series and you might stumble upon scenes that'll prove my claims... Or who knows, you might be lucky and be able to find something that'll prove your claims but I highly doubt it for the latter.

Ok... I want this to end already. This isn't a thread for Kira's intelligence or such... This is GN-0000 00 Gundam Raiser vs ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam thread.

But if you still want to continue (goodness, I'm tired already)... bring it on... I'll just go and smash your arguments again and again (lol. don't let it get to you. I'm just trying to act cool). Ok? If you're like me who wants this to end here too... then just let it end here ok? Although, if you say something to counter me, I'll counter you again for sure (haha...). But if you think you've said enough and won't be countering me, let's end this with a bang... Let's both say this...

"Gundam series are really awesome!" smile-big

Then we'll be brother in arms in proclaiming the greatness of each series! haha...

Helpoemer07

04-26-2009, 08:05 AM

LightMaster, don't worry... this is an argument about whether Kira is super smart for his age even as a coordinator... Taking into consideration his intelligence as a whole... Not as some super human intelligence that surpasses ALL coordinators... Don't worry... smile-big

Red Zaku

04-27-2009, 03:38 AM

I'm really tired on this game of tag-of-war...

First off it's tug-of-war. There is no such thing as tag of war. There is Tag, and there is War, but no such game that combines the two concepts..

it seems you nor I really wants to give up.

The difference being what I say actually supoorts my argument and you simply tag a bunch of statements together to make a giant non-sequitur.

I will not give up yet I want to finish this as soon as possible already.

It is finished your argument and points hinged on things that don't prove your point. Not one thing you used as evidence actually backed a single claim...

Coordinators ARE genetically modified humans. This means that their genes are altered. There may be no proofs that Kira's genes were altered to surpass Coordinator-intelligence level...

Which is what a debate about logic and arguments requires. Proof. Having none means your theory is not accepted. There is no reason to think Kira's genes were altered anymore then a normal coordinator. So the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim and as you just so eliquently put it there isn't any. That fact doesn't get glossed over just because it hurts your argument.

And besides, that's NOT what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that his intelligence can be greatly acknowledge even in the PLANTS.

It's not. It's only ever regarded by one person, Andy. The only people who've indirectly acknowledged it are Orb's Morgenreote division, though Kira's piloting of the Strike certainly gave him a knowledge of the workings of that machine a mechanic or programmer alone couldn't hope to possess. So one can make the argument Orb acknowledged Kira's experience, and not his smarts. So out of an entire planet, and space colonies Kira doesn't even have the recognition of 1% of the population of SEED for intelligence...

Something that normal-level of intelligence coordinators CAN'T do.

Well, Kira didn't do it either. So now what? You're resorting to making up points for your argument? PLANT acknowledges Kira, and Athrun as war hero's nothing about being war hero's implies that either person is regarded as intelligent.

ORB's a NEUTRAL nation which means they're able to witness the greatness of coordinators as workers everyday.

That's not even true. Being a Neutral nation does not mean all it's workers are great, or that is has the best workers at all..... You've again just made up something to try and show Kira is super smart. Is it really so much trouble to stick to what happened in the show and not BS about things like Orb knows how great Coordinators are because they work with them all the time? Obviously as shown in just piloting there are naturals who can surpass coordinators like Rena Imelia, so the idea being a coordinator automatically even makes you the best is flat out untrue, and is challenged by mutliple characters within the SEED universe.

Erica wasn't directly saying that Kira's intelligence is highly commendable yet the way she addresses Kira's intelligence both in and out of the battlefield is something we can ASSUME

Assumptions are not fact, they're completely and 100% conjecture, and unless that conjecture has some factual support in things that aren't assumed it's useless opinionated banter.

(yes an assumption... take it against me again) that she is acknowledging the great intellect a 15-year old posses.

Or she's acknowledging the intimate working knowledge Kira has of mobile suits designed using Strike's data, like the Astray series and thus recognizes hec an solve some of the problems they've had because he's got first hand experience. That doesn't necessarily make Kira smart, and as there are mutliple ways to interprete her speech it's obviously not conclusive enough to be the sole and singular basis of an entire theory or point.

It gives them the credit.

For something that's not qauntified in her speech. We have to assume what's she's giving credit to. Kir'as smarts, or his unique experience.

AND BESIDES, I am assuming (yes, another one of my assumptions...

So you're right because your entire argue relies entirely on assuming things to prove your theory? How the heck, do you even think this is a good debate platform?

don't worry. at least they're logical for people with common sense... hey, don't let it get to you.)

Except using common sense I already pointed out and gave a potential alternate meaning to what she was saying to Kira which once again, makes your argument null and void. There is nothing that makes one theory more correct then the other. Your entire argument relies and hinges on moments that are entirely up to the viewer to interprete. That means they're not actually facts. Each viewer will take something different away from those moments.

that Rau Le Creuset IS an INTELLIGENT-ENOUGH Commander to think things through BEFORE taking actions.

Based on what? His long track-recorder of proven stable behaviour that was strangely absent when he left the unit he was escourting behind to pursue Mwu in the Moebius Zero by himself? Maybe it was when he wrecklessly charged into JOSH-A ran into Fllay Alstair and kidnapped her on a whim? His meticulous planning, to have both sides kill each other which basically came about because he was lucky enough for ZAFT to develop a way for WMD's to work again? Rau basically luck's into a way to carry out his "master plan." Rau, was apparently so cool and calculating he wasted so much time telling Kira of his true origin's that he failed miserably finish off him and Mwu.

If they were going to pilot UNKNOWN Mobile Suits then at least they have to send pilots that are well capable.

ZAFT Red's are not capable pilots?

OR maybe you are claiming that coordinators are just that great that WITHOUT proper training, they CAN STILL do feats IMPOSSIBLE to naturals.

>.> It certainly worked out for Kira, Athrun, Dearka, Yzak, Shiho, Elijah, Gai, etc.... As unless there is some sort of magic to fast forward and rewind through time in SEED MS to MS combat didn't exist on a wide scale so there was no comprehensive training for such tactics, as there couldn't be the form of fighting didn't exist. It's like arguing fighter pilots in WWI should have known how to dog-fight before both sides even had weapons with them in the sky. Tactics for MS to MS combat were invented during the First Bloody Valentine War cause it's the first time it happened.

Hmmm... But wait a sec, I think I know of a dialogue similar to this... Oh! Now I remember... Kira said coordinators are just like naturals... They are mere potentials... Oh... That explains-no, not your side.

It really doesn't. As learning and growing in and of itself is a process of trial and error. You can't have Aces experienced in MS to MS combat if it's a rarity.... It's sort of hard to grow and learn how to fight a form of combat that didn't exist until the other side finally developed mobile suits of their own....

Hmmm... Red coats DOES mean that they're students with the TOP marks... I'm not arguing you're wrong. I'm just saying that without having some kind of a special training they can't possibly have piloted the Gundams outright...

>.> Why not? MS are MS. The only thing that's differtent is the OS which they altered to be more like what they're used to. The control inputs for a GiNN are the same basic set up as those for the GAT-X units, because they're still designed for the same anatomical body.

Here's a logical proof for both Kira's intellectual COMPETENCE and the Red coats possible TRAINING:

>.> So far your logic has suggested assumptions = credible sole support for theories, and you can know how to fight a certain means of warfare before it exists. What exactly has been logical about anything you're replied with so far?

The MBF-M1 Astray in ORB was being test-driven by mere NATURALS (kindly look it up... not so sure whether they're coordinators but most probably they're Naturals)...

>.> The MBF-M1 Astray was also developed several months after the GAT-X, and original Astray Units. So how this will even be remotely applicable to the situation as presented at the start of the series is beyond me.

Look if Coordinators in ORB, "SCIENTISTS and ENGINEERS at that" cannot reprogram or modify their OS to suit Naturals and Coordinators alike, without somekind of "A LITTLE" superior intelligence on Kira's part,

Well, it's sort of hard to program an OS when you have no data on the MS when it's working to peak efficiency because of the poor state of the OS itself. It's not hard to believe someone who's been piloting a mobile suit under combat conditions would have developed solutiosn to problems one can't find in a lab. That's generally the natural path almost every weapon takes in it's development history.

t wouldn't have been possible for him to BEAT fellow coordinators.

Why not? He had a massive tech advantage over the vast majority of his fellow coordinators...Strike's sensors could work in debris fields that other-wise required specialized GiNN units to move through... Except for Andy, the Ghoon Squad, and the stolen GAT-X units Kira never faced a single enemy that could even scratch Strike. And in cases where he didn't have the tech advantage 99% of the time he had a notable excuse as to how he got out unscathed. Like Athurn holding back on Kira and keeping the rest of his team from ganging up and slaughtering Strike. The Strike being more agile then the other units in ZAFT's postion thanks to their limited abilities on Earth...

Red Zaku

04-27-2009, 03:39 AM

Now if it's a little hard for coordinators to pilot such a complex OS, why don't they just utilize some coordinators in their country to pilot them and possibly "modify" it themselves?

I think you meant if it's a little hard for naturals, and if that's indeed what you meant it's because Orb, does not have the size or military strength to pick and choose who pilots. Their population is already tiny as the their entire nation is about the size of Hawaii's main island. Orb's population does not comprise enough Coordinators alone to make up a worth-while fighting force... It'd be like is Hawaii wanted to form it's own country but wouldn't allow Native Hawaiian's in thier military.

, why don't they just utilize some coordinators in their country to pilot them and possibly "modify" it themselves?

Who's to say that's not what they did for their coordiantor pilots? Orb only asked for help on it's Natural use OS afterall.

(Ok, the next one is an assumption but just let it be... it's logical anyways)

>.> You just assumed that Orb had enough coordinators that they didn't need Natural's, and that Coordinator OS's were hard to develop for Orb when Orb only asked for Kria to help with the natural use OS.

I will ASSUME that some refugees from ZAFT are also pilots or possibly graduates from the academy...

Refugee's from ZAFT? You've got it backwards, it was from Orb to ZAFT after Orb was crushed. Before that point it was emmigration to and from each nation. And it's highly doubtful, people in the military emmigrated from ZAFT to Orb, especially in any kind of serious numbers. Particularly since doing so while still in service would have been an act of treason which is punishable by death or life imprisonment. In fact, there is only one case of that and it doens't happen until after Orb falls as a nation.

Why don't they just look for them and possibly ask their help to reprogram the OS?

Because GiNN's doesn't face the same kind of issues much lighter more agile MS like the Astray's do.

If there's no special training to do such then the knowledge is quite for public use!

>.> When did I say there was no training for the operation of mobile suits? Never? That's what I thought. I said time and time again, no training for MS combat because it didn't exist. Training in the standard operations of MS would certianly exist if said military fielded them.

Then there's no reason for ORB to not gain such a knowledge since it's a neutral nation...

It's not actually neutral as it broke it's neutrality at the start of SEED by helping the EA develop it's machines. That aside there is nothing to suggest emmigration of ZAFT pilots happened in large scale to Orb, and everything to suggest the opposite that it was fairly small scale since doing something like what you proposed is TREASON.

Now, is does that satisfy you?

Not in the slightest. I'm still waiting on the logic.

(I'm hoping and keeping my fingers crossed, but there's a high possibility you're not... *sigh* this'll go on forever.

Well, unless you realize your opinion alone doesn't make you right. Then it will. But checking your ego in a messageboard debate? Yeah, I don't see it happening either.

In regards to the Wiki issue...

>.> You're trying to defend wiki as a source despite the fact it has no way to validate itself? As updates are entirely anonymus?

You're doing the same thing... ASSUMING that is... So you're arguing Kira is NOT spatially aware because Bandai doesn't say he is?

You do know there is a difference between reasonable, and unreasonable assumptions? It's unreasonable to asusme Kira has saptial awarness when there is nothing to suggest he does, and official sources slap down the idea by publishing specs that account for Kira not being spatially aware.

(brought the question back to you)... Look, No one said he doesn't.

Sunrise sort of did, when everyone was aying he must be spatially aware he has DRAGOON's sunrise publishes official data, that his DRAGOOn's don't require Spatial Awareness to function...Sunrise sort of slapped down the idea before I even got a chance with their specs and now people are trying to prove it by making up requirements to judge that don't exist.

Yet Wiki said he does.

So you're arguing wiki knows more then sunrise? Because Sunrise kinda slapped the idea down by saying the only evidence for it, isn't evidence at all.

That gave me the reason to use that as an argument since NO other OFFICIAL SITE said he doesn't... You see? (nope I'm guessing you still don't).

No, I see your point. You're arguing Wiki counts for your argument because it's just some kids word of mouth printed on paper, and that makes it factually accurate in the face of no supporting evidence, with at least some official evidence to disprove the idea? I get what you're arguing it's just a god-awful argument to make.

quote]Really? Wiki said that? Hmmm... even if that's true there must be some kind of a valid explanation for that.[/quote]

There is. Anyone can edit the site to say whatever they please. Pricisely why Ichigo's race was Super Saiyan for several months, and Goku's eye color was piss-yellow when in SSJ4....

Nope... the same can be said in Wiki... References are placed at the lower portion of the site.

Yes, for what's sourced. Not everything contained on the site is actually sourced. In fact there are numerous tags on pretty much every page demanding cleaning up of articles because most of the claims are unsourced.

Hell here is a quote from that wikia article...."In Gundam Seed Destiny, his handgun skills improve dramatically as seen in the second assassination attempt on Lacus Clyne." >.> Uh-oh. The problem here is Kira doesn't have a gun. He and Lacus are unarmed the entire time. The only ones in the group with weapons are Murrue and Andy, Kira never so much as touches a gun in the whole episode.

In fact his only involvement with guns is calling out the location of shooters to Murrue, and diving to save Lacus after her Haro spots the shooter in the vent. Good thing Wiki is so factually accurate despite none of the paragraphs in each category even having a citation note attached to them. Hell, did you even look at the article? They even included a section dedicated to comparing Kira to Amuro Ray, which is neither perinant to his character, or informational.

Although it's a little different in Gundam Wiki coz there's no such portion... Yet, try to think about it.

Nope, there isn't, and then there's this. "His implied status as a person with high spatial awareness ability also has an impact on his fighting abilities." You do realize you completely mis-quoted an inaccurate source. They say his implied status IE the animation implies, it. They've likely taken this from his use of DRAGOON's. The problem is they don't require spatial awareness, so the idea he has Spatial Awareness is no longer implied from that. So his ability to dodge is either Spatial Awareness or just good piloting skills. So that's one section where not only are two claims both unsourced but one is completely disproven and the other is no longer implied.

If Wiki will just accept even the worse of worst articles, it'll end up with their reputation stained

What rock have you been living under? It's always been stained. It has never had a good reputation. Wikipedia isn't even allowed as a source for high-school level research papers... In fact the entire concept of Wikipedia was mocked on national TV during The WORD segment of Steven Colbert's show the Colbert Report entitled Wikiality, in which he crushed the very concept of a peer review dictionary by showing Wikipedia could be altered to say Elephants in Africa are over-populated and that would be a fact...

(like what you're thinking about Wiki).

>.> If only it were just my thinking at not a sad fact of the internet.

This will make them lose money from advertisers because this will cause them to lose integrity.

If only internet advertising worked that way. It's about site hits, and people no matter how horrible a source wikipedia is will still use it form information. Hell, I'll just show you the video to illustrate my point....http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72347/july-31-2006/the-word---wikiality?videoId=72347.

But before the worst-case scenario for Wiki happens, they have time to think about the users comments and change their articles for the better.

For mainstream subjects that works. For things like anime where the user base is not so high and even fewer have extensive knowledge, not so much.

But in such case, Wiki have not removed that part of Kira's abilities.

Beceause Wiki's Gundam community isn't large of knowledgable enough to care.

This maybe due to their OWN reliable sources saying that IT is possible and "best-case scenario" maybe from people from Bandai/Sunrise themselves.

No, it's simply that they don't care. Fact checking is the job of the users who submit the information. There is too much on Wikipedia for an entire staff to deal with all the subjects submitted on a daily basis. Essentially you're on the honor system when submitting.

Red Zaku

04-27-2009, 03:39 AM

Nope, I'm not forcing my opinion on you. I'm just replying coz you still keep on coming. Now, if you still think you're right then that's fine with me. But I'll also STAND FIRM in my CONVICTION no matter what arguments/proofs you throw at me.

So basically, you're going to take the childish road and throw you hands over your ears screaming I'm right your wrong? Well, at least you'll admit it.

I'll just eat them all up and add them to my databank. Then I'll try to rebut them in my head and say "I have a counter for that". And it'll become an endless process... *sigh* how I wish for this to end already.

So basically you're trying to get me to admit defeat not because you're right but because you just won't shut up til I agree? How old are you sir? Your logic here is that of a 10 year old throwing a tantrum.

Hey, they can't simply be just anonymous.

Yes you can. Have you ever even tried to edit wiki? So long as you don't use an AOL IP, or sometimes even if you do, you can edit any content without an account. Hell, the guy who created wikipedia quit the staff, and is opening a new site which you have to pay to be a member and edit content so the problems with wikipedia go away.

Wiki has a log in system.

For it's registered users. You do not have to be one to edit articles.

And they can easily single out those with bad contributions. The same with FORUMS...

They could if Wiki wasn't a community of billions of people, far too many to easily manage which just the staff Wikia employs. But then they don't require accounts to edit information either which just makes it all the harder to fact check any of this. Not mention most of what you cite would be considered fan cruft, which is nearly impossible to source as is and is generally stuff that by Wiki's own TOS should be deleted but isn't.

They made the specs like that solely because that's the LATEST update for DRAGOON system.

They didn't make those specs. They stole them from MAHQ.net and then didn't source them. In fact several pictures I edited for MAHQ have been used as MS art for Wikipedia without my consent, or siting the source for the images which was either MAHQ or Mechatalk.

It wouldn't seem right for the "lead" character to have a system that is outdated.

Why if that system offers much more precise control because it allows the pilot touse his spatial awareness to manipulate his weapons function?

This might have been a conflict on whether they want Rey to have DRAGOON or not.

>.> So your counter is what? Maybe? Possibly?

Didn't quite get what your last sentence mean. Ok, I'll just explain my side. I'm imploring you to review or rewatch the entire series coz I'm tired of thinking for scenes that'll prove you wrong...

What scenes? You haven't posted one, in fact I explained how the only scene you ever brought up actually went down.

Just go and watch the series and you might stumble upon scenes that'll prove my claims...

I have, watched the series, maybe you're the one who needs the second look? Especially at your own posts. You haven't brought up a single scene in this post to cite.

Ok... I want this to end already. This isn't a thread for Kira's intelligence or such... This is GN-0000 00 Gundam Raiser vs ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam thread.

Then admit your're arguing for an opinion with no support and just stop replying? How is that so hard?

But if you still want to continue (goodness, I'm tired already)... bring it on... I'll just go and smash your arguments again and again

When did you do it before that you could actually imply again?

Sorry for the tripple post mods, but this was a long reply.

Zetta

04-27-2009, 09:00 AM

Red Zaku. I applaud your tenacity.

Helpoemer07

04-27-2009, 06:59 PM

I really thought this was a friendly and intellectual debate... If you're going to look at my posts, never have I said any insulting words or statements. I may have used some statements that are a little offensive, but it was just to make my statements a little cool yet I apologize time and time when I do that. Then why are you acting like a "sore loser"? Sorry for the term, don't worry I'm just describing what you're doing. If you really think you are right, then why go overboard and try to offend others? I really do think those offensive actions of yours are the ones that are childish (sorry)... I don't have to say my age. Maturity is something that age never gains. Older doesn't equal maturity. I myself am immature but to think that in my opinion I haven't seen anybody I can call mature in this world. That's my philosophy. Ok back to topic...

First off it's tug-of-war. There is no such thing as tag of war. There is Tag, and there is War, but no such game that combines the two concepts..
Oops, I know, sorry my mistake...

So basically, you're going to take the childish road and throw you hands over your ears screaming I'm right your wrong? Well, at least you'll admit it.

So basically you're trying to get me to admit defeat not because you're right but because you just won't shut up til I agree? How old are you sir? Your logic here is that of a 10 year old throwing a tantrum.

That's not what I meant. You didn't quite get what I mean. I was merely describing what we are both doing. We both don't want to admit defeat because we both think we're right. I can't believe you misunderstood me and even resulted to giving an insult.

Refugee's from ZAFT? You've got it backwards, it was from Orb to ZAFT after Orb was crushed. Before that point it was emmigration to and from each nation. And it's highly doubtful, people in the military emmigrated from ZAFT to Orb, especially in any kind of serious numbers. Particularly since doing so while still in service would have been an act of treason which is punishable by death or life imprisonment. In fact, there is only one case of that and it doens't happen until after Orb falls as a nation.
ZAFT forces seeking refuge from the war. Those who doesn't want anymore war. It isn't impossible. Look, the purpose of most of my assumptions isn't to directly back-up my claims. My claims are good enough to be considered as possibilities and even some are facts. The purpose of my assumptions is to create a state of mind that what I'm saying are possible and that you too can't deny that. Although I don't have the ability to support a FEW of my claims, you still can't deny the fact that they're possible and you don't have the power either to remove them as possibilities.

They didn't make those specs. They stole them from MAHQ.net and then didn't source them. In fact several pictures I edited for MAHQ have been used as MS art for Wikipedia without my consent, or siting the source for the images which was either MAHQ or Mechatalk.

Why if that system offers much more precise control because it allows the pilot touse his spatial awareness to manipulate his weapons function?

>.> So your counter is what? Maybe? Possibly?
GOODNESS! Stop chopping my statements. Quote statements as a whole. Or is that how you understood my arguments (word by word, phrase by phrase)? I can't help but think that you are misunderstanding me because you are taking my statements by phrase. I wasn't talking about Wiki making those Specs. Read my post again. I was talking about why Bandai might have made the specs of the DRAGOONs like that.

And yes. My counters are Maybe and possibly. As I've said, if you aren't interpreting my views at the best perspective, you are bound to misunderstand me.

What scenes? You haven't posted one, in fact I explained how the only scene you ever brought up actually went down.
Nope. We're basically doing the same thing. You just happen to have more "scenario"-claims than I do since I'm so lazy to remember a hundred scenes that would support my claims (haha... an exaggeration...). And what we're doing is stating a clam, the other destroying that claim, then here comes the first to try to rebuild that claim by destroying the other's claim... and vice versa. This is basically a stalemate since neither one of us want to give up.

I have, watched the series, maybe you're the one who needs the second look? Especially at your own posts. You haven't brought up a single scene in this post to cite.
Nope... I'm quite sure the message is for you.

Then admit your're arguing for an opinion with no support and just stop replying? How is that so hard?
I did... I already did so a few posts back. Look, evidences aren't the only things that matter in a debate. I have evidences and most of them are assumptions that can still be considered with proper logic. Same question should also be raised against you.

When did you do it before that you could actually imply again?
See? That's cause you're not reading my posts intelligently. You're just concentrated in thinking about, "this guy is SO wrong!" and miss my points. Try to read my posts again, I swear you'll be illuminated.

I think you meant if it's a little hard for naturals, and if that's indeed what you meant it's because Orb, does not have the size or military strength to pick and choose who pilots. Their population is already tiny as the their entire nation is about the size of Hawaii's main island. Orb's population does not comprise enough Coordinators alone to make up a worth-while fighting force... It'd be like is Hawaii wanted to form it's own country but wouldn't allow Native Hawaiian's in thier military.

Who's to say that's not what they did for their coordiantor pilots? Orb only asked for help on it's Natural use OS afterall.
I didn't make a mistake there. I said it's a little hard for coordinators to pilot them and that's what I mean. Yzak, Dearka, and the others also acknowledged the complexity of the OS they're using. Even Rau Le Creuset acknowledged it. I said A LITTLE hard. I never said it was too difficult. Again, you misunderstood me.

So you're saying that their coordinator pilots doesn't have to train for the use of MS? Of course they did train. Now if they had a prior training, how come they still can't rewrite the OS and help ORB's natural pilot corps?

Because GiNN's doesn't face the same kind of issues much lighter more agile MS like the Astray's do.
Oh! So that's how it was. I wonder how come Athrun, Dearka, Yzak, and Nicol managed to face an issue of OS similar to what you're talking about... Hmmm... If ZAFT mobile suits are that different, then would that mean Athrun and the others are that great to overcome the difference in technology? Or they had prior training different from other pilots? Like the pilots of GINNs that you were talking about. Hmmm... Guess you have to be careful on what you're saying. You might get misunderstood like how you are to me.

>.> When did I say there was no training for the operation of mobile suits? Never? That's what I thought. I said time and time again, no training for MS combat because it didn't exist. Training in the standard operations of MS would certianly exist if said military fielded them.
Reprogramming an OS is part of that course? Wow! Then I just have to find even somebody in green coat and all of the problems of EAF in MS are solved. But haven't they been having prisoners of war? I mean, that's natural at wars. Not all EAF are cruel to kill all alive ZAFT forces soldier. If reprogramming an OS is known by each and every single one of ZAFT soldiers, then I can't seem to fathom how EAF had such a hard time developing their Gundams.

It's not actually neutral as it broke it's neutrality at the start of SEED by helping the EA develop it's machines. That aside there is nothing to suggest emmigration of ZAFT pilots happened in large scale to Orb, and everything to suggest the opposite that it was fairly small scale since doing something like what you proposed is TREASON.
ORB didn't break it's neutrality. It was done by a minority of people in ORB that knows the technology and helped the EAF to gain selfish interests.

Helpoemer07

04-27-2009, 07:01 PM

No, I see your point. You're arguing Wiki counts for your argument because it's just some kids word of mouth printed on paper, and that makes it factually accurate in the face of no supporting evidence, with at least some official evidence to disprove the idea? I get what you're arguing it's just a god-awful argument to make.
Nope. Based on your idea of debate, it's a good point on my part. Although I dislike your description "kids word of mouth printed on paper" thing. The thing is you can't be sure which ones are accurate and which ones are not. So let's make a deal... I'll go ahead and admit my defeat following your confirmation that the part on Kira's abilities is incorrect. Possibly an interview with the director, a direct statement from Bandai/Sunrise, etc. As long as it's official it suits me just fine. As I've said in my earlier posts, I want to gain access to better sources but since sites like MAHQ and Gundamofficial has limited statements, I still see Wiki as a good source as it has more thorough information. See? I've been trying to appeal to everybody from the very start! Yet you overlook my posts and just say "Oh! I think I can beat the hell out of this guy" even though you miscalculated that our egos are the same.

Sunrise sort of did, when everyone was aying he must be spatially aware he has DRAGOON's sunrise publishes official data, that his DRAGOOn's don't require Spatial Awareness to function...Sunrise sort of slapped down the idea before I even got a chance with their specs and now people are trying to prove it by making up requirements to judge that don't exist.

So you're arguing wiki knows more then sunrise? Because Sunrise kinda slapped the idea down by saying the only evidence for it, isn't evidence at all.
Your assumption is no better than mine. Read my post. I was talking about a possible reason why Sunrise needed to claim that DRAGOONs in SF are computerized. Hope you understood that earlier post of mine coz it's as if you didn't.

There is. Anyone can edit the site to say whatever they please. Pricisely why Ichigo's race was Super Saiyan for several months, and Goku's eye color was piss-yellow when in SSJ4....
So? It did change right? It means Wiki knows what's valid info and not... See? But wait, the part on Kira's abilities haven't change right? It has been... hmmm... 4 or 5 years already? Wow! See the point?

Hell here is a quote from that wikia article...."In Gundam Seed Destiny, his handgun skills improve dramatically as seen in the second assassination attempt on Lacus Clyne." >.> Uh-oh. The problem here is Kira doesn't have a gun. He and Lacus are unarmed the entire time. The only ones in the group with weapons are Murrue and Andy, Kira never so much as touches a gun in the whole episode.
Hey edit that part my friend. It was the SECOND assassination of Lacus Clyne. The one where Meer was shot. Kira was holding a handgun. I hope you edit that post, it might be bad to your reputation... Just trying to be helpful. After you edit it I'll edit mine too to remove the quote. Cause I still see this as a friendly debate. smile-big Sadly, you're making it as if I'm the worst enemy of all... sigh... :(
Nope, there isn't, and then there's this. "His implied status as a person with high spatial awareness ability also has an impact on his fighting abilities." You do realize you completely mis-quoted an inaccurate source. They say his implied status IE the animation implies, it. They've likely taken this from his use of DRAGOON's. The problem is they don't require spatial awareness, so the idea he has Spatial Awareness is no longer implied from that. So his ability to dodge is either Spatial Awareness or just good piloting skills. So that's one section where not only are two claims both unsourced but one is completely disproven and the other is no longer implied.
That can be, but what if they wanted to make Kira spatially aware that's why they intended for the use of SF's DRAGOON but Rey's Legend's DRAGOON contradicts. Since they're both using the latest DRAGOON system, Bandai must've made a decision whether Kira's DRAGOONs are computerized or not. I've posted this point earlier.

Based on what? His long track-recorder of proven stable behaviour that was strangely absent when he left the unit he was escourting behind to pursue Mwu in the Moebius Zero by himself? Maybe it was when he wrecklessly charged into JOSH-A ran into Fllay Alstair and kidnapped her on a whim? His meticulous planning, to have both sides kill each other which basically came about because he was lucky enough for ZAFT to develop a way for WMD's to work again? Rau basically luck's into a way to carry out his "master plan." Rau, was apparently so cool and calculating he wasted so much time telling Kira of his true origin's that he failed miserably finish off him and Mwu.
I wasn't saying he's intelligent or superior at that. I was saying he's an intelligent-ENOUGH commander. I doubt ZAFT will position somebody as a commander if he's not capable. I really hate it when you don't read my posts nicely coz I read yours like it were my own... Everytime I read your posts I admit I have the tendency to say you're good coz you really are. But the problem is we just have different views on the matter. sigh... I really do hope it ends here. But I'm guessing it won't. Hey, I might get late in replying to future posts coz we'll be having our exams on Wed and Thurs... Gotta review.smile-big

ZAFT Red's are not capable pilots?
They are because they might have had a specialized training for that kind of feat.

Why not? He had a massive tech advantage over the vast majority of his fellow coordinators...Strike's sensors could work in debris fields that other-wise required specialized GiNN units to move through... Except for Andy, the Ghoon Squad, and the stolen GAT-X units Kira never faced a single enemy that could even scratch Strike. And in cases where he didn't have the tech advantage 99% of the time he had a notable excuse as to how he got out unscathed. Like Athurn holding back on Kira and keeping the rest of his team from ganging up and slaughtering Strike. The Strike being more agile then the other units in ZAFT's postion thanks to their limited abilities on Earth...
Again, you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about Kira's piloting skills that couldn't beat fellow coordinators. I was talking about how he can beat fellow coordinators working on the Astray projects. Please (5X) read my posts the best way you can. Don't let your emotions get the best of you.

It really doesn't. As learning and growing in and of itself is a process of trial and error. You can't have Aces experienced in MS to MS combat if it's a rarity.... It's sort of hard to grow and learn how to fight a form of combat that didn't exist until the other side finally developed mobile suits of their own....
So you're saying that if the programmer is somebody who have acquired a real time combat experience, then he'll be able to do what Kira did to the OS of ORB? If that were the only case then that would've been easy. They have been conducting sparring sessions over and over. Why in the world did it never occurred to them to use engineers and programmers to pilot the OS? Look, it's a question on why they weren't able to do what Kira did. For me, it's because Kira is a cut (meaning a little) more intelligent than the average coordinator. That's what I've been arguing about.

Now, the point on whether his intellect is due to genetic engineering is a little of my very own perspective. I see it as either he was just born as a little more intelligent than the average and it's a gift... Or it was because he was genetically engineered to be like that. And I picked the latter as it is more logical. Although I can also accept that it was a gift from God like how singers are gifted with singing voice.

If you're going to reply, and I'm guessing you will... Let me ask you one favor, please refrain from using insults or derogatory words or phrases. Read my posts, I've never used one. This is a friendly debate between forum-friends that have different perspectives (or so that's what I believe). smile-big

Helpoemer07

04-27-2009, 07:03 PM

Helpoemer07

04-27-2009, 08:58 PM

To Mods... please delete the double post I made... My net wasn't working very well and I clicked on Submit twice... sorry for the trouble... thanks...

Red Zaku

04-28-2009, 02:13 AM

I really thought this was a friendly and intellectual debate...

>.> Intellectual? You've yet to say anything that isn't entirely based on your opinion. In fact you even admitted there is no factual backing to your argument at all, but say it should be considered accurate because you feel that it is...

If you're going to look at my posts, never have I said any insulting words or statements. I may have used some statements that are a little offensive,

>.> So then, you're contradicting yourself? You just said you never said anything insulting but then say you said things that would be offensive. Obviously, you don't know what a synonym is if you're saying you're not insulting when you're potentially offending people....

but it was just to make my statements a little cool yet I apologize time and time when I do that.

When? Especially at the end of your post where you seemed to get this insanely idiotic sense of entitlement that just because you have a view means it's right...

Then why are you acting like a "sore loser"? Sorry for the term, don't worry I'm just describing what you're doing.

Sore loser? How have I lost? By breaking down your argument to the point you essentially admitted that you were just going to stick your fingers in your ears and say I'm right you're wrong? Generally intellectual debate, requires a better train of thought then, " I'm right and no matter how many facts stand against me I'm still right." If you're going to toss around the word and claim you thought that's what this debate was, then could you at least put it into practice? Claiming yourself victor before you've even said anything to defend your point just makes you look like a pompous ass.

If you really think you are right, then why go overboard and try to offend others?

I only return what I've been getting and you've been talking down to me since the first time I pointed out your theory was bogus. Perhaps if you wouldn't have tried to imply you were on a higher level of intellectual supremacy when you first initiated your reply, I wouldn't have had to get a little hostile. But then, my hostility doesn't change the factual nature of what I've replied with vs. the utterly opinionated non-sense that is your reasoning.

I really do think those offensive actions of yours are the ones that are childish (sorry)...

Does one even have room to talk about being childish when they've admitted they're not debating with facts or logic but simply because it's what they want to believe about the character facts be damned? If you wanted to make this a grade school contest of, "no you," you simply could have replied with that and been done with it. Adding more words to it, doesn't change the fact it's what you're doing anyway.

I don't have to say my age. Maturity is something that age never gains. Older doesn't equal maturity.

The idea that one doesn't become wiser with the increased amount of life experiences that come with age is silly, naive, and ultimately just a sad excuse to make you feel better about how you've chosen to conduct yourself. Don't try and justify your desire to be right at all costs as if I should pity, accept, or condone anything you've just said...I don't know the kind of reaction you were hoping for but all this has done is manage to depress me slightly.

That's not what I meant. You didn't quite get what I mean. I was merely describing what we are both doing.

Both doing? I was giving facts and evidence and at the end of the day you said the following: I'm just replying coz you still keep on coming. Now, if you still think you're right then that's fine with me. But I'll also STAND FIRM in my CONVICTION no matter what arguments/proofs you throw at me.

>.> How in gods name is that anything like what I'm doing? I'm replying because you're wrong and I'm correcting you. It's nothing beyond that. You're replying because I replied..... See the huge difference? One of us is interested in facts, the toehr just wants the last word apparently.

We both don't want to admit defeat because we both think we're right.

It's not a question of thinking. It's a question of facts. I've given more, I've had factual support for my arguments. You have an unsourced, innaccurate Wikia entry....How do I know it's inaccurate? Because I friggin pointed out an entire claim that the section made and completely disproved it in seconds just by watching the episode it said to.

I can't believe you misunderstood me and even resulted to giving an insult.

Because there was no mis-understanding involved. You're just trying to play it off, but it's hard to mis-understand you when you say right in the reply, you will respond simply because I did. You admitted logic can go to hell, you're replying cause I did nothing else needed.

ZAFT forces seeking refuge from the war.

>.> ZAFT forces, ZAFT military seeking refuge from war? If they didn't want to be in war why would they have joined the military? That logic is completely counter productive to the entire idea of being a soldier....

Those who doesn't want anymore war. It isn't impossible.

But it damn sure isn't likely. Hell, generally not wanting war is the reasoning used to justify the decision to fight. So that war can be ended...That's pretty much the foundation of SEED character logic, especially in the case of the TSA, and Terminal.

Look, the purpose of most of my assumptions isn't to directly back-up my claims.

That's not true, you supported what your opinion with that assumption and nothing else.

My claims are good enough to be considered as possibilities and even some are facts.

1.None of them were facts.
2.There is a posibility that you will get hit by a truck tomorrow, just because it's possible doesn't mean it's likely.

The purpose of my assumptions is to create a state of mind that what I'm saying are possible and that you too can't deny that.

>.> Except when your assumption has no supporting evidence it's not proof of a claim. It's just that an assumption. Being possible doesn't make it likely, and in the case of some claims completely improbable.

Although I don't have the ability to support a FEW of my claims,

A few? You don't have the ability to support any of them. Even your so-called "support" from Gundam Wikia was proved unreliable, not like it ever was, but I damn sure illustrated it wasn't.

you still can't deny the fact that they're possible and you don't have the power either to remove them as possibilities.

Sure I do. I can remove them as possibilites based on how likely they are to have transpired. Hibiki showing no interest in making Kira superior to other coordinators makes it highly improbable he did anything to Kira other then map his genes to the standards of all other coordinators....

In the same manner I can eliminate Kira's spatial awareness, because the only arguments for him possessing it come from an unreliable wikia article, and the assumption he possessed the quality after S-Freedom was revealed to have DRAGOON's. Now that we know those DRAGOON's function without that trait, and there is no other means of dtermining if one possesses it logic says we can eliminate it as a possibility because of how unlikely it is.

This is called Occam's Razor. The idea that the simpilist explaination which makes the fewest assumptions is often the more correct answer. It was designed for just this such an instance. The only thing that can make Occam's Razor invalid or not apply is if there was a confirmed explanation that was actually more complex. As there isn't Occam's Razor is applicable to this situation.

GOODNESS! Stop chopping my statements. Quote statements as a whole.

Why? Sometimes your statements have multiple things in them that are completely incorrect, and chopping them makes it much easier to address each individual incorrect point rather then having to run a gambit in a long and often mutli-directional rant. This way there is never any question in the readers mind just what I've responding to.

Or is that how you understood my arguments (word by word, phrase by phrase)?

It's how I broke them down so as to address them in the most efficient manner possible. Taking your theories point by point makes sure I've replied to everything. If it makes you so upset, I'm sure someone could play a sad tune on a violin for you?

I wasn't talking about Wiki making those Specs. Read my post again. I was talking about why Bandai might have made the specs of the DRAGOONs like that.

Of course your phrasing was awful, and you suggested it was like that on wiki because Bandai corrected wiki on it personally..... Why the hell would Bandai/Sunrise give out character information for free when they can publish it in a post-series summary book and sell it for a large profit?

And yes. My counters are Maybe and possibly. As I've said, if you aren't interpreting my views at the best perspective, you are bound to misunderstand me.

Your views are horribly mis-placed and often assign too much faith to unrealiable sources to be taken with an ounce of seriousness.

Nope. We're basically doing the same thing.

Please feel free to point it out then. I'll be happy to just start listing sources.

Red Zaku

04-28-2009, 02:13 AM

You just happen to have more "scenario"-claims than I do since I'm so lazy to remember a hundred scenes that would support my claims

>.> Umm... I hate to break it to you big guy but it's not a claim, if it's sourced from a scene. Especially if the scene is stating something factual not something opinionating. Or if I'm referencing something animated. It's not a claim, if it's undisputable, it's a fact.

This is basically a stalemate since neither one of us want to give up.

Unless you remember I've got support in the show for what I'm saying along with secondary source support from official materials... You've got... well, your opinion....It's not really a tie when I've got something that supports what I've said and you have... well, nothing.

I did... I already did so a few posts back. Look, evidences aren't the only things that matter in a debate.

Wait what? I must have read that wrong. You can't possibly be saying evidence isn't the key component of debate? I never thought I'd read anything, well, it's hard to describe just how shocking this is.... Well, maybe not given your earliar admission to replying only because I do, but wow.....

I have evidences and most of them are assumptions that can still be considered with proper logic.

>.> Your assumptions are eliminated with proper logic, see: Occam's Razor.

Same question should also be raised against you.

Not really but ok....

See? That's cause you're not reading my posts intelligently. You're just concentrated in thinking about, "this guy is SO wrong!" and miss my points. Try to read my posts again, I swear you'll be illuminated.

You remind me of another horrible debater, repeating that your points need to be re-read and that will make them better is something you've fooled yourself into thinking because it's your view. Your view can't be bad because it's yours. Sad truth is? You can look at a rusted car for hours it's still a rusted car.

I didn't make a mistake there. I said it's a little hard for coordinators to pilot them and that's what I mean.

And you're basing that on what? Yzak, and Dearka in episode 1 commenting on how awesome their new machines handled?

Yzak, Dearka, and the others also acknowledged the complexity of the OS they're using.

When? Aside from remarking the OS was poorly written a comment made by Kira none of them ever talked about the complexity of the OS, in fact Dearka, and Yzak re-wrote their OS in seconds, and it only took Nicol a little longer, before Blitz was up and running too.

Even Rau Le Creuset acknowledged it.

Rau acknowledged the machines as being potentially deadly, and suggested if they didn't act those weapons would make ZAFT regret not capturing them when they had the chance. He suggests nothing else in episode 1 especially about the OS.

I said A LITTLE hard. I never said it was too difficult. Again, you misunderstood me.

>.> And again your basis for this is what? No one acknowledged the OS, they acknowledged the mobile suits performence. ZAFT's council was in an uproar about the devastating potential of the EA's Mobile Suit's. No one gave a crap about the OS except for the Eurasian Federation who wanted to leap ahead in the mobile suit race with the Atlantic Federation, and Orb.

So you're saying that their coordinator pilots doesn't have to train for the use of MS? Of course they did train.

Wait, you're talking about my reading comprehension and this is the third time I had to explain, there was no training for Mobile Suit to Mobile Suit warfare because it didn't exist? And by third time I mean in 3 posts... I can't begin to count the number of times I did so in each of those three posts.

Now if they had a prior training, how come they still can't rewrite the OS and help ORB's natural pilot corps?

x.x Why in the hell would Coordinator pilots know how to program an OS for Natural's? The last I checked the two were on completely different levels when it came to efficiency and competency along with reaction time... In fact there is only one Natural in the whole world who's known to be able to use a Coordinator OS. And as hot as Rena Imalia is, she's certainly not going to help Orb develop a natural use OS.

Oh! So that's how it was. I wonder how come Athrun, Dearka, Yzak, and Nicol managed to face an issue of OS similar to what you're talking about... Hmmm...

..... Because they re-programmed the OS to make them function for them?

If ZAFT mobile suits are that different, then would that mean Athrun and the others are that great to overcome the difference in technology?

>.> So are you suggesting it's harder to use newer technology? I know I wasn't. I said there was no way to accurately simulate what they'd be expecting to fact when it came to re-writing their OS. No where does that imply the machines themselves would be difficult to master simply because they're different from a GiNN. Not to mention the entire raid on the Colony was done without the council's consent and ordered by Rau while he was still in the field giving them no-prep time to go over such a thing anyway.

Or they had prior training different from other pilots?

No, nothing supports that. Considering, the raid was a last minute decision by Rau, they had no intel on the mobile suits other then picture and location, and they had no idea what to expect when stepping inside them.... The idea they could be given extra training for a last minute situation is both highly improbable and a silly suggestion. Also note The Red's had an entire ZAFT Strike team with them doing the same things the Red Coat's were, they simply weren't tasked to jack the Gundam's.

Like the pilots of GINNs that you were talking about. Hmmm... Guess you have to be careful on what you're saying. You might get misunderstood like how you are to me.

>.> Umm, but I was. This is the eighth time I had to explain it. At this point it's probably not be me, and just might be you.

Reprogramming an OS is part of that course? Wow!

How do you get re-programming an OS from Standard operations of mobile suit courses?

Then I just have to find even somebody in green coat and all of the problems of EAF in MS are solved.

>.> The EAF solved it's own problem... I even explained how and where it was gone over....

But haven't they been having prisoners of war? I mean, that's natural at wars. Not all EAF are cruel to kill all alive ZAFT forces soldier.

Where in the hell are you even going with this rant? Not only does re-programming an OS not fit into Standard operations, if anything that would be standard repair for a mechanic if changes had to be made, but the idea Coordinators = care or know how to develop natural use OS is beyond me.....

If reprogramming an OS is known by each and every single one of ZAFT soldiers,

It's not. Why would such a thing even qualify as Standard MS operation?

then I can't seem to fathom how EAF had such a hard time developing their Gundams.

>.> They didn't? They had a very easy time of it once they got data from the test bed Duel, Long, and 105 Daggers.

ORB didn't break it's neutrality. It was done by a minority of people in ORB

It was done by Morgenreote and the Sahaku family the Sahaku's are member of the royalty and part of the parliamentary staff, and Morgenreote is owned by the nation of Orb, it's not a private buisness. No matter who set things in motion it's a breah of Neutrality. Even Uzumi Nara Athha get's that it's a breach of Orb's Neutrality, it's seemingly just Orb supporters who don't.

Diceman

04-28-2009, 02:58 AM

This is still going on? Props to Red zaku

Red Zaku

04-28-2009, 03:25 AM

Nope. Based on your idea of debate, it's a good point on my part.

Using facts with as little baseless conjecture as possible?

Although I dislike your description "kids word of mouth printed on paper" thing.

Accurate descriptions of Wikipedia will do that to people who rely on it as the their only source of information.

The thing is you can't be sure which ones are accurate and which ones are not.

>.> Fact checking sir. You read what it says and then you verify the source for yourself, by looking for something the proves the claim. If nothing proves the claim then it's unreliable.

So let's make a deal...

This is organized debate, not a popular TV gameshow....

I'll go ahead and admit my defeat following your confirmation that the part on Kira's abilities is incorrect.

I already proved it was incorrect. Please read my last post where I pointed out Kira never held a gun in episdoe 13 of Destiny let alone used one.

Possibly an interview with the director, a direct statement from Bandai/Sunrise, etc. As long as it's official it suits me just fine.

>.> It's a direct statement from Bandai/Sunrise that says the only way to people could prove Kira's spatial awareness doesn't prove it at all, and that comes from S-Freedom's MG model kit.

As I've said in my earlier posts, I want to gain access to better sources but since sites like MAHQ and Gundamofficial has limited statements

That's because it's limited to confirmed factual information. Not random speculation and fan-boy screen humping. What sites like Gundam Official, and MAHQ publish is all stuff that can be sourced from Sunrise/Bandai, and that's why they have less content then sites like wikipedia. Because 99% of Gundam Wikia contains no-sourcing, and is often just made up. Like that part about Kira using a gun in episode 13...And then there are sites like Gunota which before it's closing stock-piled infromation and press-releases for us casual fans.

I still see Wiki as a good source as it has more thorough information.

It's not thorough as it's undergone zero scrutiny at all. In fact I put it under the microscope and an entire claim was complete BS....

See? I've been trying to appeal to everybody from the very start!

Appeal to everybody? The fact that there is no source for the claim Kira is spatially aware should be proof in and of itself that Kira isn't....It's not taken from anything said in the TV show. It's not stated in any inteviews or post scripts... It's just something someone made up.

Yet you overlook my posts and just say "Oh! I think I can beat the hell out of this guy" even though you miscalculated that our egos are the same.

It has nothing to do with ego. I'm debating you because you have no proof for anything you say, and you've chosen to for-go most all of the rational conventions held to logical debates.... It has nothing to do with ego, it has everything to do with I corrected you and you don't want to accept it.

Your assumption is no better than mine.

It certainly is, because it uses factual evidence from the show, it doesn't rely on a source that was already illustrated to contain non-factual information, and it doesn't ignore logical conventions like Occam's Razor, to make an argument in favor of what I'm saying....Our arguments aren't the same because mine actually contains substance...

Read my post. I was talking about a possible reason why Sunrise needed to claim that DRAGOONs in SF are computerized. Hope you understood that earlier post of mine coz it's as if you didn't.

It doesn't matter why you think they did it the fact is they did it in the wake of everyone saying Kira was spatially aware and a newtype.... your theory for why they did it completely ignores the circumstances surrounding the decision at the time.

That can be, but what if they wanted to make Kira spatially aware that's why they intended for the use of SF's DRAGOON but Rey's Legend's DRAGOON contradicts.

Why would they contradict? It's a different machine and it's blue-prints wouldn't have been altered specifically for Kira. You know like S-Freddom was. And it still doesn't have DRAGOON's which require spatial awareness to function.

Since they're both using the latest DRAGOON system,

They're two completely different machine and S-Freedom had it's blue-prints altered specifically for Kira as it's official background story. Again fromt he model kit booklet. There is no reason why one system would be inferior to another if one used only spatial awareness to function and one didn't.

Bandai must've made a decision whether Kira's DRAGOONs are computerized or not. I've posted this point earlier.

And it was a horrible point the first time you made it. The S-Freedom was personalized for Kira hence if had spatial awarness there is no reason for him to use the DRAGOON's for Dumbies system.

I wasn't saying he's intelligent or superior at that. I was saying he's an intelligent-ENOUGH commander.

He's not. We never even see him plan an assault for us to even believe he's a tallented to commander. Especially considering he is often fighting alone on the battlefield and turning command over to his subordinate. Rau's a commander for his piloting skills which were exceptional, he is a newtype, not because he's a brilliant strategist.

I doubt ZAFT will position somebody as a commander if he's not capable.

He was made a commander because he was a good pilot. The same can be said of Yzak. He's never shown tactical brilliance but he's given a white coat anyway.

I really hate it when you don't read my posts nicely coz I read yours like it were my own...

>.> I sort of doubt that when you're saying things like standard pilot training = re-programming OS.

Everytime I read your posts I admit I have the tendency to say you're good coz you really are. But the problem is we just have different views on the matter.

It's not about views it's about facts. You have none supporting your argument except unsourced claim that can't be varified anywhere not even in the show....

sigh... I really do hope it ends here. But I'm guessing it won't. Hey, I might get late in replying to future posts coz we'll be having our exams on Wed and Thurs... Gotta review.smile-big

Maybe save me the trouble, and just write the following, " No you." And we can go from there.

They are because they might have had a specialized training for that kind of feat.

And Jesus might have gotten sucked into a 747's engine if Heaven is really in the clouds, doesn't make it happens, or it's probable.

Again, you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about Kira's piloting skills that couldn't beat fellow coordinators. I was talking about how he can beat fellow coordinators working on the Astray projects.

Again, how do you expect coordinators to program a natural use OS without combat data to work with? There is only so much you can simulate in a lab. Hell, human pilots and even engineers don't know the full capabilities of the F-22A Raptor because it's ability to manuever exceeds the pilots ability to survive.

So you're saying that if the programmer is somebody who have acquired a real time combat experience, then he'll be able to do what Kira did to the OS of ORB? If that were the only case then that would've been easy.

It was. But who in Orb has any combat experience at all that can program? No one. And not one of them had any real combat data to work with. Not ot mention the OS isn't finished until after Kira departs Orb.

They have been conducting sparring sessions over and over.

How are sparring sessions in the limited terrain of Orb meanful to genuine combat data? Because I can tell you right now. It's not.

Why in the world did it never occurred to them to use engineers and programmers to pilot the OS?

1. Programmers and Engineers likely don't meet the physical requirments needed for pilots.
2. Sparring data is not akin to combat data, or all-terrain combat data. Orb can't simulate space combat, or desert combat, it can't simulate combat in flight, it never had a chance to simulate combat in water, beam weapons effects over water...

Look, it's a question on why they weren't able to do what Kira did.

I just told you.

Now, the point on whether his intellect is due to genetic engineering is a little of my very own perspective. I see it as either he was just born as a little more intelligent than the average and it's a gift... Or it was because he was genetically engineered to be like that. And I picked the latter as it is more logical.

>.> They're the same thing you just explained why he was a little more intelligent. Rather, he's shown himself a good programmer, which is to be expected he was studying programming with Morgenreote. He also had access to combat data the engineers and programmers are Morgenreote didn't have. And to get that Data Kira would have to remove the safty lock he placed on the OS.

Although I can also accept that it was a gift from God like how singers are gifted with singing voice.

Or it could simply be he's just a good programmer with access to things that Morgenreote's engineer's didn't have.

Tranquil Fury

04-28-2009, 03:32 AM

Red Zaku, I'm impressed Light Master and now this guy, how are your brain cells not destroyed from reading those posts?.Most users would have ignored them but you actually break down their arguments and take the time to put credible sources even if you have to repeat yourself a 1,000 times over.I'm repping you whether it means anything to you or not.

LightMaster

04-28-2009, 10:29 AM

Gekigangar

04-28-2009, 10:52 AM

I figured this would end after a few posts... since there's no evidence Kira's intelligence comes from Ibiki. And isn't that the whole point of this debate, you've both been sucked into a no-win battle! So glad I got out when I did... so sad, they were so young.

Well, I suppose Kira's intelligence could have come from Ibiki's natural genes. The sort of way 2 beautiful people have a high chance of getting a good looking child...

Helpoemer07

04-30-2009, 08:51 PM

Yo, I'm back but I'm no longer interested in debating with you. You win ok? But I still see it logical for me to believe that Kira indeed has above average intelligence. Either that or he is just so good at logic. you see I'm an IT student and programming is all about logic. You can't possibly gain such feats without above average intellect/logic. But since almost all of my arguments are nothing but assumptions, I'll give it to you Red Zaku...

Now to correct some misunderstandings to people:

1.) Kira is yet to be proven with Spatial Awareness. (although being a coordinator could also mean advantage or a higher form of this compared to mere naturals, so I think it's still logical to use this as an advantage for Kira)
2.) Gundam Wiki isn't reliable but still contains facts (still, this doesn't support my claims)
3.) There is no existential proof that Hibiki made Kira intelligent
-although Red Zaku was talking about Occam's Razor which could also be used to justify Hibiki's intentions. This is because Hibiki was shown to have interest in achieving all traits that he want Kira to have, this means that there is a high possibility that he wanted some traits of Kira to be above average--possibly logic/intellect, computer-literacy, etc... Or maybe some were mere products of biological inheritance.
4.) There is no proof to say that Red coats had specialized training for such a feat (but I sure do hope this doesn't mean that the only requirement for such is being a coordinator and standard MS operation/programming because in my field which is IT, it sure is damn hard or even impossible to rewrite a program without even the knowledge on what language they used)
5.) Kira can still be considered to be more intelligent and has better spatial awareness (as I have stated in number 1) than Setsuna since he is a coordinator.
6.) Rau is an intelligent-enough commander... He may have been entitled as such because he was a good pilot but that doesn't change the fact that he isn't dumb and stupid. That was what I meant. that's why there's the adjective "enough". Enough to understand what's logical and what's not. Besides, he was shown some "intellect" when he decided to bring Athrun with him to the meeting with the council since his father is there and he could help justify their loss. I wasn't saying he was a tactician, I was saying he is capable.

--------
Red Zaku,
just some minor corrections... you said,
Wait what? I must have read that wrong. You can't possibly be saying evidence isn't the key component of debate? I never thought I'd read anything, well, it's hard to describe just how shocking this is.... Well, maybe not given your earliar admission to replying only because I do, but wow.....
What I mean is that I was thinking that this is a friendly, intellectual yet informal debate where opinion matters. Where as long as it's logical it can still be considered. Sorry for not clearing that up earlier...

It was. But who in Orb has any combat experience at all that can program? No one. And not one of them had any real combat data to work with. Not ot mention the OS isn't finished until after Kira departs Orb.
ok... but why didn't Kira just give the data and be done with it? Why did he have to go through all the trouble of actually working on it? Don't worry, I'm just curious.

I already proved it was incorrect. Please read my last post where I pointed out Kira never held a gun in episdoe 13 of Destiny let alone used one.
Bro, I told you to edit your post because it was wrong... The one being described in Gundam Wikia isn't the FIRST assassination where Lacus was assaulted at her house which was the first re-appearance of Strike Freedom BUT the article was talking about the SECOND assassination where Lacus decided to meet with Meer Campbell even though they all know it's a trap. That's when Meer was shot.

Rau acknowledged the machines as being potentially deadly, and suggested if they didn't act those weapons would make ZAFT regret not capturing them when they had the chance. He suggests nothing else in episode 1 especially about the OS.
While Rau was talking to his vice-captain (don't know the name--the one in black), he referred to the Gundams as having such a complicated OS. I can still remember the scene quite well...

x.x Why in the hell would Coordinator pilots know how to program an OS for Natural's? The last I checked the two were on completely different levels when it came to efficiency and competency along with reaction time... In fact there is only one Natural in the whole world who's known to be able to use a Coordinator OS. And as hot as Rena Imalia is, she's certainly not going to help Orb develop a natural use OS.
I thought you said all they need is battle data? Is it that hard to find battle data during a war? Well, it's just bugging me so I needed to raise that question...

No, nothing supports that. Considering, the raid was a last minute decision by Rau, they had no intel on the mobile suits other then picture and location, and they had no idea what to expect when stepping inside them.... The idea they could be given extra training for a last minute situation is both highly improbable and a silly suggestion. Also note The Red's had an entire ZAFT Strike team with them doing the same things the Red Coat's were, they simply weren't tasked to jack the Gundam's.
yeah, hands down to that one... I basically remembered the wrong scene... haha... But what I meant by having a specific training was reprogramming an OS... well, although it's also possible it's included in their curriculum... ok...

It's not. Why would such a thing even qualify as Standard MS operation?
So not all soldiers know how to reprogram an OS? So what do you exactly mean? That only specific soldiers can do it? I'm quite confused. Isn't that the same as what I've been clamoring before? That it's possible that Athrun and the others had prior training in reprogramming OSes? And possibly include poorly written OS as a subject? Oh well, never mind...

>.> So then, you're contradicting yourself? You just said you never said anything insulting but then say you said things that would be offensive. Obviously, you don't know what a synonym is if you're saying you're not insulting when you're potentially offending people....
I was basically talking about how I write my posts. Some have the tendency to taunt you... Or to even have the tendency to look like I'm making fun of your posts. The reason was I was trying to act cool in words. I always say sorry because I don't mean it. Most of them are just expressions common in conversations like... "Wow, I didn't know that..." --It's like saying nope it isn't true but wow!... Or something like that... hehe...

Sore loser? How have I lost? By breaking down your argument to the point you essentially admitted that you were just going to stick your fingers in your ears and say I'm right you're wrong? Generally intellectual debate, requires a better train of thought then, " I'm right and no matter how many facts stand against me I'm still right." If you're going to toss around the word and claim you thought that's what this debate was, then could you at least put it into practice? Claiming yourself victor before you've even said anything to defend your point just makes you look like a pompous ass.
You didn't get what I mean... I was talking about your insults... It was not a behavior by somebody winning right? If you're winning against an opponent, the loser tends to insult you with words-hoping to win with offensive words. That was what I meant... You're somewhat saying that I lose but you're the one using insults. I wasn't directly saying you're a sore loser but I was just wondering why act like that when it looks like you have the upper hand...

I only return what I've been getting and you've been talking down to me since the first time I pointed out your theory was bogus. Perhaps if you wouldn't have tried to imply you were on a higher level of intellectual supremacy when you first initiated your reply, I wouldn't have had to get a little hostile. But then, my hostility doesn't change the factual nature of what I've replied with vs. the utterly opinionated non-sense that is your reasoning.
Intellectual supremacy? When did I imply that? I was basically saying words like "it's a stalemate", "my views on the matter" and similar statements... How did it look like I was trying to be superior? I was just saying that you can't change what I believe in if you can't prove they ain't logically possible.
Occam's Razor doesn't change that. Because it only states (from your statement) that the least number of assumptions is "probably" the correct one.

Does one even have room to talk about being childish when they've admitted they're not debating with facts or logic but simply because it's what they want to believe about the character facts be damned? If you wanted to make this a grade school contest of, "no you," you simply could have replied with that and been done with it. Adding more words to it, doesn't change the fact it's what you're doing anyway.
Like I said, I wasn't thinking of this as a formal debate. I was just basically trying to prove that my side is also highly possible. And that since there are no official claims against those possibilities, you can't blame people to think they can be true. How is that childish?

Helpoemer07

04-30-2009, 08:52 PM

Both doing? I was giving facts and evidence and at the end of the day you said the following: I'm just replying coz you still keep on coming. Now, if you still think you're right then that's fine with me. But I'll also STAND FIRM in my CONVICTION no matter what arguments/proofs you throw at me.

>.> How in gods name is that anything like what I'm doing? I'm replying because you're wrong and I'm correcting you. It's nothing beyond that. You're replying because I replied..... See the huge difference? One of us is interested in facts, the toehr just wants the last word apparently.
Correcting me? Oh well, I was just stating my opinions as far as possibility is concerned... Looks like we were dragged down into a debate without even having the same frequency. :laugh

I'm replying coz I wanted to tell you and explain how I began to believe with my beliefs... Everytime you reply it causes me to think that you really don't see my points... that's all...

Why? Sometimes your statements have multiple things in them that are completely incorrect, and chopping them makes it much easier to address each individual incorrect point rather then having to run a gambit in a long and often mutli-directional rant. This way there is never any question in the readers mind just what I've responding to.
yes I know, but some statements have follow-ups that is really important to that. Like my comments that the statement is a mere exaggeration or something... And then some even have points where I wanted to show why I came up with that idea... but since you only quote a portion of my statements, it leads me to believe that you're misunderstanding me... that's all... hope you understand.

The idea that one doesn't become wiser with the increased amount of life experiences that come with age is silly, naive, and ultimately just a sad excuse to make you feel better about how you've chosen to conduct yourself. Don't try and justify your desire to be right at all costs as if I should pity, accept, or condone anything you've just said...I don't know the kind of reaction you were hoping for but all this has done is manage to depress me slightly.
I was basically just saying my belief in life. That most adults (or even all) don't see much of the reality of life children have... It's more of my own guiding principle... I believe that people mature the moment they accept that they're immature. The moment they see that having certain views or perspectives of children makes one truly mature... Maturity isn't when people get into mutual relationships... Maturity isn't when people start burning their eyebrows for the sake of earning money for a living. I believe that maturity is when people start to realize that if they're living just like how everybody is living, they are bound to see how immature they were when it's too late. This is basically how I see life. It's because I want to change the world with my own two hands... Funny isn't it? I know... But that's just now... I'll someday prove that dreams are what makes people. WELL... that's not the topic but I'm so glad I cleared myself... age doesn't matter in maturity... Actually there are times when even kindergartens are more mature than us. That is what I believe. My own opinion... Silly? You also have your own unique views in life... you want them to be called silly? Naive? no right?

OK that's all... hope you got my message... But all in all... you win...

*hey, you win ok? but that doesn't change the results of my earlier post on whether GN-0000 00 Raiser will win against ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom or not. Since Kira is a coordinator with genes altered to be superior to naturals... Setsuna might be an innovator but with abilities not yet known to the public... So I guess there's nothing wrong with my conclusion... But it was fun having to spend time thinking of arguments against you... thanks for the time... I learned a lot. smile-big

Red Zaku

04-30-2009, 11:41 PM

1.) Kira is yet to be proven with Spatial Awareness.

Correct.

(although being a coordinator could also mean advantage or a higher form of this compared to mere naturals,

Incorrect. We've never even found a single coordinator even in the Astray side-stories who posesses spatial awareness. The only ones who've ever showed the ability are NATURAL pilots...

so I think it's still logical to use this as an advantage for Kira)

>.> How is it logical? You just made up a quantifier that Coordinators Spatial Awareness by default > Natural's, but we've never even seen a single Coordinator with the skill ever...

3.) There is no existential proof that Hibiki made Kira intelligent
-although Red Zaku was talking about Occam's Razor which could also be used to justify Hibiki's intentions.

>.> Occam's Razor supports the simplist theory. The simplist theory is not that Hibiki wanted Kira to be smarter and made him that way.

This is because Hibiki was shown to have interest in achieving all traits that he want Kira to have, this means that there is a high possibility that he wanted some traits of Kira to be above average

No it doesn't. You've just made a Non-sequitur. Wanting Kira's gene mapping to come out perfectly, and wanting Kira to be superior to other Coordinators are two different things and wanting to achieve one end does not mean he wants to achieve the other...You connected them by a desire we don't know Hibiki posesses so you've just made a leap in formalized logic... Which is a logical fallacy...And still makes the situation needlessly complex, with relation to why Kira is smart if he even is super smart. The simplist solution would be Kira's a brainiac because he is the product of two brainiacs...

4.) There is no proof to say that Red coats had specialized training for such a feat (but I sure do hope this doesn't mean that the only requirement for such is being a coordinator and standard MS operation/programming because in my field which is IT, it sure is damn hard or even impossible to rewrite a program without even the knowledge on what language they used)

Well thank god this is a work of fiction and Coordinators are so superior intelligently they can figure out base programming sequences incrddibly quickly.

5.) Kira can still be considered to be more intelligent and has better spatial awareness (as I have stated in number 1) than Setsuna since he is a coordinator.

>.> Setsuna has evolved past the point of a normal human into a true innovator. At this juncture making any claim about the superiority of a a Coordinator vs. Innovator is impossible we simply don't understand what that encompasses...

6.) Rau is an intelligent-enough commander... He may have been entitled as such because he was a good pilot but that doesn't change the fact that he isn't dumb and stupid.

Considering the only planning he did in the whole of GS relied extensively on dumb luck, I'm not going to say he's an intelligent commander. Considering he let's others do the actual work at every possible turn.

ok... but why didn't Kira just give the data and be done with it?

He password locked access to the Strike's computer he had to go with Morgenreote anyway because there is no way they could have even obtained the combat data without him.

Why did he have to go through all the trouble of actually working on it? Don't worry, I'm just curious.

Kira completely re-wrote the key-functions of the OS which made it impossible for anyone to use but Kira. The best person to understand the programming changes Kira made would be Kira..

While Rau was talking to his vice-captain (don't know the name--the one in black), he referred to the Gundams as having such a complicated OS. I can still remember the scene quite well...

Well then do you at least remember the episode? Because not only does Rau never mention such a thing in episode 1, but the Coordinators alter them before the Gundam's are even returned to ship so Rau never even saw the original OS to make a comment, and it's understandable a Coordinator OS would be complex for Rau he's still a Natural.

I thought you said all they need is battle data? Is it that hard to find battle data during a war? Well, it's just bugging me so I needed to raise that question...

Yes when you're a neutral nation, that has no involvement with any nation currently fighting, and you've cut ties with the development team from the EA you had previously been working with. Getting combat data would require destroying every MS that the Astray came accorss for maximum secrecy and with an incomplete OS the idea that would be an easy task or evne possible becomes totally unlikely.

So not all soldiers know how to reprogram an OS? So what do you exactly mean?

I mean that the only ones who'd need such a course at the maintence and support staff not the pilots. While that doesn't prohibit the idea the Red-Coats may have asked for a small instruction course from the mechanics, the Mechanics are the only feasible staff that would require knowledge to re-program OS.

Gekigangar

05-01-2009, 12:49 AM

Actually, regarding about the Gundam OS, the OS of all the Gundams were incomplete as told by Murrue Ramius.

From what we have seen, the OS could make the Gundams move awkwardly, but that's about it.

My guess is that Issac and his team just...fine tuned the OS just enough to get the Gundams back to their ship.

From what I can remember when Rau spoke to the team, he said that he does not understand how the Strike Gundam could move so well, as they all should know how incomplete the OS was which made it more of a reason to either destroy or capture the Strike Gundam. (Probably because he assumed that the Strike Gundam might have a copy of a fully completed OS)

We see in the scene of the Aegis Gundam that 2 technicians were helping Athrun in reprogramming the incomplete OS. This backs up Red Comet's statement that the pilots did not need to know how to reprogram the whole OS, just enough to get it make to base.

Red Zaku

05-01-2009, 04:34 AM

Actually, regarding about the Gundam OS, the OS of all the Gundams were incomplete as told by Murrue Ramius.

No one's disputing that all the OS were intended for Natural pilots which meant they couldn't have been finished. It doesn't change the fact Kira, and all the ZAFT pilots who jack them alter the OS so it functions for Coordinators.

From what we have seen, the OS could make the Gundams move awkwardly, but that's about it.

How much of that was Murrue, and how much of that was the OS is debatable, note with just a button press and push on the controls Kira get's a very fluid reaction out of the unit. >.> Murrue being nothing but a mechanic at that point kinda tells the horrid operation could come from either source.

My guess is that Issac and his team just...fine tuned the OS just enough to get the Gundams back to their ship.

It had to ahve been more then that Yzak and Dearka delight in how easy it is to control their machines they re-wrote the entire thing. The same applies to Kira, they never needed to work on Strike's OS after Kira alters it but it can no longer be used by a Natural it's too complex.

From what I can remember when Rau spoke to the team, he said that he does not understand how the Strike Gundam could move so well, as they all should know how incomplete the OS was which made it more of a reason to either destroy or capture the Strike Gundam. (Probably because he assumed that the Strike Gundam might have a copy of a fully completed OS)

But that speaks to neither the complexity or the OS or the impossibility of the ZAFT pilots to make the machines work, as we know that the ZAFT pilots re-programemd them. Rau had no idea that Kira took over piloting and likely assumed the pilot a Natural which would explain why he doesn't understand how it could work so well.

We see in the scene of the Aegis Gundam that 2 technicians were helping Athrun in reprogramming the incomplete OS.

You'll have to show me that scene then because I've watched both episode 1&2 half a dozen times now and I still can't find it.

Gekigangar

05-01-2009, 06:39 AM

No one's disputing that all the OS were intended for Natural pilots which meant they couldn't have been finished. It doesn't change the fact Kira, and all the ZAFT pilots who jack them alter the OS so it functions for Coordinators.

The Co-ordinators could have used the Incomplete OS as it is, but they probably changed a few settings around to make it move better and maybe added any missing parts to the OS related to flying. Their main goal was to Jack the Gundams to move and get them back in 1 piece.

It would not make much sense to use the original OS which could screw up the take off and landing.

How much of that was Murrue, and how much of that was the OS is debatable, note with just a button press and push on the controls Kira get's a very fluid reaction out of the unit. >.> Murrue being nothing but a mechanic at that point kinda tells the horrid operation could come from either source.

It probably came from both. Incomplete OS and inexperienced piloting. So we shall leave it at there.

It had to ahve been more then that Yzak and Dearka delight in how easy it is to control their machines they re-wrote the entire thing. The same applies to Kira, they never needed to work on Strike's OS after Kira alters it but it can no longer be used by a Natural it's too complex.

From what I have heard, Issac just remarked how nice and impressive the machines were. Nothing about how easy they are to control. It's like you get into a nice flashy sports car like a Ferrari when you have been driving a Toyota your whole life.

From what I have seen them do, they just made the Gundams stand up and fly off. Nothing too fancy about that. I assume if you were Jacking a Gundam with an incomplete system, you would not spend too much time going into every detail, just enough to get the suit up and running to get back to your base where you will have the leisure to customize it to your needs.

But that speaks to neither the complexity or the OS or the impossibility of the ZAFT pilots to make the machines work, as we know that the ZAFT pilots re-programemd them. Rau had no idea that Kira took over piloting and likely assumed the pilot a Natural which would explain why he doesn't understand how it could work so well.

Gundams in SEED need OS to work properly. If that was not so, Rau would not have remarked to the team that since the Gundams have such lousy OS, he could not understand how the Strike could move as well as it did.

Even Kira, a co-ordinator could not do much with the pre-installed incomplete OS and had to modify it to suit his needs.

You'll have to show me that scene then because I've watched both episode 1&2 half a dozen times now and I still can't find it.

My mistake. I mis-interpreted the scene wrongly. My apologies.
The scene was near the beginning of Episode 3 where 2 techies was doing 'something' to the Aegis. Around the 5 minute mark.

Helpoemer07

05-01-2009, 07:24 AM

I sure do hope you won't consider my reply as continuing the debate.. I'm just here to clear the things I've said...

I made some mistakes with my corrections...

1.) The first one should have been... Kira is yet to be proven with heightened spatial awareness. What I mean with this is that everybody has spatial awareness... Although majority of people has very low of this. But since Kira is a coordinator which means his genes were enhanced to be superior to naturals... Wouldn't it be logical for him to "at least" have superior spatial awareness compared to naturals who doesn't have heightened skill (except of course for Mwu La Flaga)? So it's also logical to assume that Kira is has this as an advantage since Setsuna is yet to prove greater abilities aside from QTBW (See #3).

2.) >.> Occam's Razor supports the simplist theory. The simplist theory is not that Hibiki wanted Kira to be smarter and made him that way.
Yes I know... But I hope you're not saying that Kira is balanced in all aspects. All people have unique superiorities like (singing voice, better memory, etc). So this is what I meant. The simplest theory is that Hibiki had to choose what appearance, abilities, and potentials Kira would have. If that's the case, then there is a high possibility for Hibiki to make Kira superior in a few aspects than average coordinators (although these coordinators also has something which are superior to Kira). Hope I cleared myself with this.

3.) >.> Setsuna has evolved past the point of a normal human into a true innovator. At this juncture making any claim about the superiority of a a Coordinator vs. Innovator is impossible we simply don't understand what that encompasses...
Yes I know... But as I have been saying in my earlier posts... The extent of human innovation that Setsuna have reached isn't clear yet. Meaning, the extent of Setsuna's abilities are yet to be discovered. That's why I can only use Quantum brainwaves, etc... as his advantages. It was like a fight between Kira at the height of his abilities vs Setsuna whose abilities are yet to be known. So the obvious answer would be Kira... But as I was saying, when Setsuna's true abilities finally surface, I doubt Kira stand a chance... lol.

4.) Considering the only planning he did in the whole of GS relied extensively on dumb luck, I'm not going to say he's an intelligent commander. Considering he let's others do the actual work at every possible turn.
As I have said, I'm not claiming he's intelligent... I'm saying he's intelligent-enough. Which are 2 different things. I'm not saying he's a tactician coz he certainly is not. I'm saying that he certainly isn't dumb that's all nothing more nothing less.

5.) Yes when you're a neutral nation, that has no involvement with any nation currently fighting, and you've cut ties with the development team from the EA you had previously been working with. Getting combat data would require destroying every MS that the Astray came accorss for maximum secrecy and with an incomplete OS the idea that would be an easy task or evne possible becomes totally unlikely.
You should have cleared that a little earlier then.. You should have said not only simply "battle data" but it should have been "battle data using the G.U.N.D.A.M. OS". Because battle data is everywhere considering that they provide maintenance during foreign forces docking in their ports.

6.) I mean that the only ones who'd need such a course at the maintence and support staff not the pilots. While that doesn't prohibit the idea the Red-Coats may have asked for a small instruction course from the mechanics, the Mechanics are the only feasible staff that would require knowledge to re-program OS.
Wait, isn't that the same as saying they did have some sort of special training? I thought I was saying that there was possibility for that and you opposed the idea. Oh well, never mind...

7.) Well thank god this is a work of fiction and Coordinators are so superior intelligently they can figure out base programming sequences incrddibly quickly.
So I think that supports my argument from before that Kira is more intelligent than Setsuna since Kira is a coordinator and Setsuna's abilities are not yet known and proven.

----------
I sure hope you're not viewing this as a debate coz I gave up on the idea since I was just stating my opinions. Anyways, hmmm... just see this as a friendly conversation... Just let bygones be bygones... :laugh

Zetta

05-01-2009, 08:55 AM

Hey Red Zaku, ever been to the Outskirts Battledome? You seem like the kind of guy who would feel right at home there :ho

Red Zaku

05-01-2009, 11:09 AM

1.But since Kira is a coordinator which means his genes were enhanced to be superior to naturals... Wouldn't it be logical for him to "at least" have superior spatial awareness compared to naturals who doesn't have heightened skill (except of course for Mwu La Flaga)?

No, because we've seen only natural pilots possessing Heightened Spatial Awareness, Mwu, Rau, Morgan Chevalier, Prayer Reverie, and the eleven other pilots who were originally apart of the Mobius Zero Squadron, as the Mobius Zero required a very precise level of control to work it's Gunbarrels.

So it's also logical to assume that Kira is has this as an advantage since Setsuna is yet to prove greater abilities aside from QTBW (See #3).

Spatial awarness doesn't exist in 00. Hence it's impossible for Setsuna to ahve it. Instead Setsuna has newtype powers so long as GN particles are active in the area, and Newtype powers especially precognition are far more useful then anything else. Besides we haven't even established everyone is even spatially aware, or that Coordinators are more so. So it's completely illogical to assume anything like that.

2.)
Yes I know... But I hope you're not saying that Kira is balanced in all aspects. All people have unique superiorities like (singing voice, better memory, etc). So this is what I meant. The simplest theory is that Hibiki had to choose what appearance, abilities, and potentials Kira would have.

>.> Hibiki was out to make the ultimate coordinator who's altered DNA sequences came out exactly as they were altered to do so. This means Kira likely did night go through any proceedures that normal Coordinator embryo's don't already go through. The only features that were set that we know for sure were physical appearence features like hair and eye color. We know this for sure because Kira's technical brother Canard Pars was disqualified as a successful project because his hair turned out black instead of brown. Hair color is the only feature we even know for sure that was intended to be brown.

If that's the case, then there is a high possibility for Hibiki to make Kira superior in a few aspects than average coordinators

There is no reason to make Kira superior to other coordinators. He simply wants to make a coordinator who's genetic encoding is exactly as it was written at the time of his birth. He has no reason to shoot for superior he just needs Kira to be an average coordinator. Kira's smarts can and likely did come from his dedication to his studies, as the development of Coordinators after their birth is controlled by which muscles they exorcise and which they don't.

Like Canard Pars is nick-named the "Super Coordinator" because of the extreme testing done on his body which ended up making him physically superior in terms fo durability to other Coordinators. It has nothign to dow ith Kira's physical traits being superior to other and is likely simply a by-product of the fact he's exercising his brain a lot more and Coordinaotrs have a higher memory retention then Naturals.

3.)
Yes I know... But as I have been saying in my earlier posts... The extent of human innovation that Setsuna have reached isn't clear yet. Meaning, the extent of Setsuna's abilities are yet to be discovered.

Yes, which makes it impossible to declare Kira better then Setsuna in any aspect because Setsuna's stats are nothing but question marks...

Because battle data is everywhere considering that they provide maintenance during foreign forces docking in their ports.

Actually they don't the Archangel was a huge exception, but because it was only providing aid Orb somehow didn't feel it was violating it's Neutrality. It was but that's a pilotical debate and a referendum on the idiotic ideals held by said nation.

6.)
Wait, isn't that the same as saying they did have some sort of special training? I thought I was saying that there was possibility for that and you opposed the idea. Oh well, never mind...

It's not really special training becuase nothing suggests it took place. Being a posibility doesn't make it likely as I said situations for the attack and raid didn't support the concept they even had time for a quick lesson.

So I think that supports my argument from before that Kira is more intelligent than Setsuna since Kira is a coordinator and Setsuna's abilities are not yet known and proven.

>.> It doesn't support any argument. A question mark can't be greater, equal or worse then something else because it could be any of those three. There is no way to compare the two as pilots because there is still so much unknown about Setsuna's abilities.

Helpoemer07

05-01-2009, 07:08 PM

hmmm...

actually what I meant was that I don't believe Kira to be balanced all throughout. Of course he has certain weaknesses and strong points. If that were the case, then Hibiki must've made some aspects of Kira to be uniquely above average but some are average or even less. Somewhat like an idea where a singer is good in singing but sometimes they're not good in dancing. I only mean that there are certain abilities to be considered by Hibiki for Kira's development.

Besides we haven't even established everyone is even spatially aware, or that Coordinators are more so. So it's completely illogical to assume anything like that.
If we would consider your earlier definition that Spatial Awareness was the ability to gauge distances in a 3 dimensional plane in space, everybody has it or else nobody would be able to hit enemies in space. But since Kira is a coordinator which means he has enhanced abilities, I believe it's right to say that in terms of being spatially aware, Kira is better than Setsuna... that's all... *note: I'm not saying anymore that Kira has heightened spatial awareness. I'm just saying that coordinators must have a cut higher of this ability over naturals except for those with heightened spatial awareness like Mwu, etc... So coordinators > naturals in average spatial awareness, but naturals (w/ heightened SA) > coordinators. that's what I meant.

>.> Hibiki was out to make the ultimate coordinator who's altered DNA sequences came out exactly as they were altered to do so. This means Kira likely did night go through any proceedures that normal Coordinator embryo's don't already go through. The only features that were set that we know for sure were physical appearence features like hair and eye color. We know this for sure because Kira's technical brother Canard Pars was disqualified as a successful project because his hair turned out black instead of brown. Hair color is the only feature we even know for sure that was intended to be brown.
Yes, I know what you mean. But what I mean is that they all went through the same procedures but that doesn't change the fact that Hibiki was to alter his genes. If that were the case, coordinators must've faced gene-alteration with their abilities being enhanced at some points. Kira is an average coordinator by default, but since they used an artificial womb, all traits have been successfully implanted. What I mean is that Kira's appearance have become 100% successful, same is through with the abilities implanted in him. He is not superior to average coordinators. But, he has strengths and weaknesses different from other coordinators. That's what i meant.

Kira must have been potentially smart or strong depending on how Hibiki altered his genes. Then it all depended on Kira exercising these abilities. that's what I meant. Kira isn't superior. He is also an average coordinator but his greatest potentials are different from other coordinator's greatest potentials.

>.> It doesn't support any argument. A question mark can't be greater, equal or worse then something else because it could be any of those three. There is no way to compare the two as pilots because there is still so much unknown about Setsuna's abilities.
You didn't quite get me bro... I meant that the comparison is between Kira (at the height of his abilities) vs Setsuna (with question-marked abilities). I was practically saying that Kira is better than Setsuna IF-AND-ONLY-IF Setsuna's abilities remain as it is where they are unknown. I'm saying that Setsuna has the potential to become far greater than Kira if his abilities were to be discovered, but for now it's Kira's win. that's all...

It's not really special training becuase nothing suggests it took place. Being a posibility doesn't make it likely as I said situations for the attack and raid didn't support the concept they even had time for a quick lesson.
Wait, here is what I meant. You said in your earlier post that Red coats didn't have any special training. Then you said they were taught how to reprogram OSes. Then you said that only maintenance staff needed to know how to reprogram OSes not the pilots. Then you said that the Reds might have asked for some instructions from the mechanics. Then I questioned it because it sounds like special training to me. But nonetheless, my question is does all ZAFT pilots know how to reprogram them? Or the Reds are the only ones who can?

Actually they don't the Archangel was a huge exception, but because it was only providing aid Orb somehow didn't feel it was violating it's Neutrality. It was but that's a pilotical debate and a referendum on the idiotic ideals held by said nation.
I believe they said a line or two somewhere that as long as they're laws aren't violated, ZAFT and EAF are free to come and go in their country. But, my memory on that is a little blurry so just forget that... haha...

Anyways, regarding battle data. You said that they only needed battle data right? But the problem is that they can't get any. Then you said that the Strike's battle data is locked in Strike's OS and that's why they needed help from Kira. You said they can do the OS upgrade themselves with the battle data. But in episode 27, Erica Simons already have the battle data of Strike even before they asked Kira's help. And also, Kira wasn't there to rewrite the OS but to create a new one. He was to create a "support" OS for the Astrays. Can't ORB do it alone without Kira's help? They of course have coordinators too as workers... And besides, Erica Simons was amazed as how quickly Kira did the work. Considering that Erica see coordinators almost everyday, why was she amazed? She even said, "you're pretty good, aren't you?"... Just wondering...

-----------
Well, those are just few things left undone... haha... hey, do you happen to know where I can download HQ Original Mobile Suit Gundam series? I need episodes 6 and 7 because my download link is broken... thanks...smile-big

Red Zaku

05-02-2009, 03:34 AM

hmmm...

>.> I thought we were done with this debate? You don't have to try and counter evertyhing I say with what you thought, what you thought was inocorrect, explaining why you thought that way doesn't change the outcome of it all.

actually what I meant was that I don't believe Kira to be balanced all throughout. Of course he has certain weaknesses and strong points. If that were the case, then Hibiki must've made some aspects of Kira to be uniquely above average but some are average or even less.

Or it could simply be much like Kira explained, he's simply not developed those traits thus he doesn't possess them. It's entirely up to the coordiantor to live his life in a manner that develops certain traits over others. Kira being better in some areas and not as good in others is only indicative of the process explained that Coordinators still have to work to achieve physical results. No more no less.

Somewhat like an idea where a singer is good in singing but sometimes they're not good in dancing.

>.> Which does nothing to speak to genetics. Dancing is a learned skill, he could become good at dancing and singing if he takes classes.... It's nothing like that at all...

I only mean that there are certain abilities to be considered by Hibiki for Kira's development.

And nothing you've said supports that, so why bother trying to explain the view? Explaining why you have your unsupported theory doesn't change it's unsupported and there are more logical and simplistic solutions for why Kira possesses the traits he does...

If we would consider your earlier definition that Spatial Awareness was the ability to gauge distances in a 3 dimensional plane in space, everybody has it or else nobody would be able to hit enemies in space.

>.> Considering it's done through targeting computers, threat warning alarms, and radar/heat detection systems then no, everyone does not have it. Not to mention you omitted lot's of things I said in that difinition like the ability to control objects and guage distances between those controlled objects and the target and their position in space relative to the target... Not everyone possesses these traits in fact no one does. The human brain can't even assign proper scale to objects in great distances without some form of reference point in the field of vision.

But since Kira is a coordinator which means he has enhanced abilities, I believe it's right to say that in terms of being spatially aware, Kira is better than Setsuna... that's all...

>.> Except you omitted a crap ton of the definiton for spatially aware assigning it a wholy new one and then claiming it was my own words when it was not. You pretty much decided to pick and choose what you wanted me to have said.... Not to mention, I even explained how the human brain CAN'T do such things without reference points to help our brains guage distance size. Since there is NOTHING like that in space the idea it can be done is entirely impossible, and it's the reason why the trait in SEED is so rare.

*note: I'm not saying anymore that Kira has heightened spatial awareness. I'm just saying that coordinators must have a cut higher of this ability over naturals except for those with heightened spatial awareness like Mwu, etc... So coordinators > naturals in average spatial awareness, but naturals (w/ heightened SA) > coordinators. that's what I meant.

And what you meant is completely unsupported by my definition of the trait, let alone the show which never suggests even normal spatial awareness is common... And then comparing it to Setsuna is more silly-0ness as there is no such thing as spatial-awareness in 00. It'd be like holding it against Kira that he's not a master of the Zero system if we were to compare Heero, and Kira, or suggesting Kira is superior cause he has SEED Mode and no one else he could fight out of his universe does....There are reasonable comparison's and there are stupid ones. Trying to suggest Kira has a trait over Setsuna that doesn't exist in his universe is not a good way to compare characters...

What I mean is that Kira's appearance have become 100% successful, same is through with the abilities implanted in him. He is not superior to average coordinators. But, he has strengths and weaknesses different from other coordinators. That's what i meant.

>.> Then by that logic ALL Coordinators have different strengths and weaknesses so it's not much of a point at all.

Kira must have been potentially smart or strong depending on how Hibiki altered his genes.

See this here? Completely unsupported in SEED. Completely and totally. Kira was in a field of study that required him to be a good thinker. Thus his mind developed more then his physical abilities because that's what he used the most. In the same manner, Canard, Kira's technical brother, was experimented on to test his physical abilities and as such he became physically superior to most coordinators. As you can see here, Kira being smarts are as much and far more likely a product of his environment just as Canard's physical abilities are a product of his. And unlike your Hibiki did it theory my explaination was directly mentioned in Gundam SEED, that Coordiantors gene manipulation only gives them a greater potential it's up to the coordinator to make it into an actual advantage.

You didn't quite get me bro... I meant that the comparison is between Kira (at the height of his abilities) vs Setsuna (with question-marked abilities).

Then that's the worst comparison in the history of comparing anything....You cann't say Kira > Setsuna on the premise that simply because you don't know what Setsuna can do, and you do know what Kira can that Kira is bettter, there is no evidence for that conclusion. It's as bankrupt as any of your other theories at this point.

I was practically saying that Kira is better than Setsuna IF-AND-ONLY-IF Setsuna's abilities remain as it is where they are unknown. I'm saying that Setsuna has the potential to become far greater than Kira if his abilities were to be discovered, but for now it's Kira's win. that's all...

>.> Yes, and that's the proble you declared a winner with no basis to compare them. It'd be like picking a winner in a NASCAR race and making it official before the Race even started...You don't know who the winner is until the race is actually won. In the same manner you can't claim a victor until you can compare the two somewhat evenly.

Wait, here is what I meant. You said in your earlier post that Red coats didn't have any special training.

>.> They don't. Red Coat = highest marks in the Academy Course's for that particular graduating class.

hen you said they were taught how to reprogram OSes.

No, I said the only Coordiantors who would be taught such a thing would the maintence crew they'd be the only ones with the need to be able to do it. Unless you're arguing that the Red Coats = Maintence Crew. In fact the only thing I said was maybe, and this is a giant maybe, the Maintence Crew taught them something of how to do it. Of course as I said that's a giant maybe because nothing suggests they had the time to do it at any point before the operation to capture the GAT-X units. And even if they did, getting a bit of knowledge from the maintence crew is not good enough to qualify as special training...

Then you said that only maintenance staff needed to know how to reprogram OSes not the pilots.

Yes, because Maintence has to do repairs on the mobile suits and the OS controls things like the calibration for weapons as seen with the Strike, thus having the ability to work with the OS is a huge deal for MAINTENCE! Seperate from SOLDIERS....

Then you said that the Reds might have asked for some instructions from the mechanics. Then I questioned it because it sounds like special training to me.

How is it special training when they'd be gaining knowledge passed on to any average mechanic? Hell, how is it special when the same knowledge could be imparted to anyone of any coat provided they just ask? It's hardly specialized training for the Red's when it's simply something they might have picked up through conversation with their mechanics, and it's not even limited to the Red's any member of the MS team even the green coats could have gained the same knowledge...

But nonetheless, my question is does all ZAFT pilots know how to reprogram them? Or the Reds are the only ones who can?

And the simple answer is no one knows. Likely no, they're not, because the information can be obtained quite easily jsut from dicussing the topic with a mechanic...It's certainly not information that would only be limited to Red-Coats and certainly not part of any real training program for pilots either. It'd be like hanging out in a Auto-body repair shop. You're there long enough you learn things. Certainly doesn't make you as qualified as the experts but you can gain enough knowledge to get by with a few things. Now, are the red's the only one who can mingle with the mechanics? Obviously not, and so the information can be picked up to anyone who actually observes or talks with them...

Red Zaku

05-02-2009, 03:35 AM

I believe they said a line or two somewhere that as long as they're laws aren't violated, ZAFT and EAF are free to come and go in their country. But, my memory on that is a little blurry so just forget that... haha...

>.> Orb giving specific and soul aid to an EA warship to the point of using force and sovereign rights to keep ZAFT out would be a violation of Orb's Neutrality. ZAFT could have ordered a full military strike on Orb just from that. Orb is not actually a Neutral nation, they take sides quite often but only when it suits them. Orb pretty much hides behind the notion of Neutrality while taking a leak on it with how they actually carry out their policies, and most in the world of SEED are actually dumb enough to ignore this....
But in episode 27, Erica Simons already have the battle data of Strike even before they asked Kira's help.

>.> Erica refers to the combat records of Kira Yamato, not the combat data recorded in Strikes internal computer. Refering to data she has on Kir'as fights,a dn refering to the data contained in Strike's computer on it's performence in those fights are two different hings....

And also, Kira wasn't there to rewrite the OS but to create a new one. He was to create a "support" OS for the Astrays. Can't ORB do it alone without Kira's help?

How can they? They have no traces of their original Natural use OS as it was lost with the Astray Red Frame... The only other copies remained in the mobiles stolen from the EA, and the EA's own unit was in the hands of a rogue ship and crew which while still part of the EA was not in constant comunications inf act watching epsideo 27 Erica pretty much states what seh has on the Strike comes from the files submitted by Kisaka.

They of course have coordinators too as workers... And besides, Erica Simons was amazed as how quickly Kira did the work. Considering that Erica see coordinators almost everyday, why was she amazed? She even said, "you're pretty good, aren't you?"... Just wondering...

So because she's impressed with how quikcly Kira can write a program with things avialbalbe to him that were not available to Orb we must take her beign impressed with the quick design of that program? >.> Still not convincing that Kira is smarter then other Coordiantors....

Well, those are just few things left undone... haha... hey, do you happen to know where I can download HQ Original Mobile Suit Gundam series? I need episodes 6 and 7 because my download link is broken... thanks...smile-big

HQ? No, their sub-work is terrible. You want good subs you go with Conclave Mendoi who have download links right on their site. They're slow but they offer the most accurate translation short of official subs and dubs.

Helpoemer07

05-02-2009, 05:23 PM

>.> I thought we were done with this debate? You don't have to try and counter evertyhing I say with what you thought, what you thought was inocorrect, explaining why you thought that way doesn't change the outcome of it all.
Yup we're done... You won remember? I no longer want the stress from debating and I pointed out that we were on different frequencies remember? I was basically thinking that our debate was informal and thus I thought logical assumptions matter but nonetheless you won. But didn't you read my previous post? I said I just want to have a nice friendly conversation. An exchange of thoughts. but if you don't want that then fine. Just say so...

HQ? No, their sub-work is terrible. You want good subs you go with Conclave Mendoi who have download links right on their site. They're slow but they offer the most accurate translation short of official subs and dubs.
What I meant with HQ is High Quality... lol. But thanks anyways, I'll go and check their site out.

Thanks for the time but it seems you don't want to continue the conversation so I'll stop here. Well, I just thought it was rare to find somebody who is willing to take some time reading somebody else's post and also allocate time for replying. I figured it was also not that easy to find somebody who takes time giving well-thought and thorough explanations but nonetheless since you seem like saying you're out-then fine... bye... see ya later. smile-big

Helpoemer07

05-02-2009, 09:49 PM

And also, I was merely comparing Kira and Setsuna because this thread is asking me and everybody to do so. Don't blame me for comparing the two because I just followed what this thread is supposed to do. The thread is asking people whether 00 Raiser will win against Strike Freedom considering their pilots are Setsuna and Kira respectively. If the pilots were unnamed then I wouldn't have compared the two pilots. Read the very first post. It's not like I wanted to compare the two. So I'm basically saying that since this thread is asking people who would win, I just said Kira will win FOR NOW. That's all... Hope you don't misunderstand me for doing so. And for the rest of your reply, I'll just keep my mouth shut since it feels like you no longer want to continue...ok... bye...

Red Zaku

05-05-2009, 01:55 AM

And also, I was merely comparing Kira and Setsuna because this thread is asking me and everybody to do so. Don't blame me for comparing the two because I just followed what this thread is supposed to do.

I never said you couldn't compare the two, I said it was silly, and all together pointless to compare feats that don't exist in one universe to anothers. There are plenty of legit ways to compare them that don't involve holding things like Spatial Awareness, and SEED mode against Setsuna...

Green Poncho

05-10-2009, 02:16 AM

Well since DRAGOONs are slower and weaker versions of GN Fangs without any melee capability and by the end of 00 might as well be not existent to Setsuna with the way he rips them apart, they are non-issue.

Leaving Kira with two beam rifles, a beam cannon and two bea- Oh fuck this.

Setsuna could due this with the Exia.

Jack of All Trades

05-24-2009, 05:28 PM

This reminds me of "Goku vs ____"

If you watched both shows, you can have your opinions.

I wish Sunrise would make a booklet that ranks pilots and the suits.

Red Zaku

05-25-2009, 01:13 AM

This reminds me of "Goku vs ____"

It's not completely like that, there are legit ways to compare the two MS cross universe, the problem stems from holding certain power ups against the respective pilots. Like SEED mode.

[quote[I wish Sunrise would make a booklet that ranks pilots and the suits.[/QUOTE]

It'll never happen. Sunrise knows better then anyone that those kind of dicussions create series awarness, plus a list like that could alienate some fans and Sunrise hates lossing money more then they love making it.

Gekigangar

05-25-2009, 02:55 AM

I suppose if you have some battle info about the 00 Raizer, you can formulate tactics to defeat it.

Such as when it uses Quantization, it will always teleport behind you. Knowing this will allow you to know to turn around when it execute it's trick and prepare to whack the hell out of it when it re-appears.

Red Zaku

05-26-2009, 02:27 AM

Such as when it uses Quantization, it will always teleport behind you.

Actually during one of it's moments of Quantimization, it actually teleported next to one of the Innovade's. Where 00+Riser ends up after undergoing Quantimization seems entirely up to where the pilot feels like taking it.

Knowing this will allow you to know to turn around when it execute it's trick and prepare to whack the hell out of it when it re-appears.

x.x That's of course ignoring the fact it doesn't always appear behind the enemy. And in some cases actually apears near a seperate enemy.

Gekigangar

05-26-2009, 03:20 AM

Actually during one of it's moments of Quantimization, it actually teleported next to one of the Innovade's. Where 00+Riser ends up after undergoing Quantimization seems entirely up to where the pilot feels like taking it.

And from what we see from Setsuna's preference, it is often to the back of whatever enemy it is facing. So a pretty good chance about 90% it will appear to the back of you.

x.x That's of course ignoring the fact it doesn't always appear behind the enemy. And in some cases actually apears near a seperate enemy.

If I had a group, I would definitely tell them if they lose sight of 00-Raizer when it teleports, 90% of the time it will teleport behind you. With this knowledge, you have a pretty good chance to prepare yourself when it re-appears.

So tactics would be either turn around and prepare for 00-Raizer to reappear, or go into a back to back formation and do a Igelstellung firing pattern.

There's a reason why 00-Raizer mainly teleports to behind the enemy MS. Cuz it is out of the line of sight + it can inflict a critical hit before the opponent can turn around to counter. Unless said Enemy MS has weapons on it's back to counter the 00-Raizer...

Zetta

05-26-2009, 07:32 AM

Even if he teleports. Some people might be able to react to it.

Zero System users could calculate that since Setsuna prefers melee, the best place would be behind them in melee range... which would end up with 00 cleaved.

Newtypes sense him before he appears and blast him.

Sufficiently strong Coordinators in Seed mode could possible block the attack after he appears.

Red Zaku

05-27-2009, 02:08 AM

And from what we see from Setsuna's preference, it is often to the back of whatever enemy it is facing. So a pretty good chance about 90% it will appear to the back of you.

Preference aside it's a mistake to auto assume it's going to be behind you. As it goes wherever the pilot feels like. Hence if you're looking behind you and he teleports to your left you're dead... The entire point here si that there is no set pattern for this move and expectign it everytime to be from behind will likely get you killed...

If I had a group, I would definitely tell them if they lose sight of 00-Raizer when it teleports, 90% of the time it will teleport behind you. With this knowledge, you have a pretty good chance to prepare yourself when it re-appears.

And then he figures out you're expecting and he teleports other places and you're screwed. x.x

So tactics would be either turn around and prepare for 00-Raizer to reappear, or go into a back to back formation and do a Igelstellung firing pattern.

Back to back will do what? Setsuna is obviously not going to appear behind you if he realizes the machines are close enought o go back to back. He likely appears at the side. x.x The kid isn't stupid. He teleported behind people when there was no chance in hell they were going to be able to defend against it. Plus I question how a lone mobile suit S-Freedom can do back to back without an MS to go back to back with it. Unless you suggest Kira spreads his DRAGOON's to watch his back, but then what's to stop Setsuna from exiting his teleport to take out the DRAGOON's from behind? I mean let's face it those are just giant targets to Setsuna by this point in 00. He's already shown enough precision to hurl beam daggers are GN fangs, both faster and more deadly then the DRAGOON's.

There's a reason why 00-Raizer mainly teleports to behind the enemy MS.

Generally because it's the most vulnerable place to attack someone. It's no different then fighter pilots trying to turn, climb, and dive to get on someone's 6'o'clock. The rear is simply the best position to shoot someone out of the sky.

Cuz it is out of the line of sight + it can inflict a critical hit before the opponent can turn around to counter.

>.> It's line of sight? What are you suggesting with it's line of sight? He teleports there because it's in his field of view, because it's not in the enemy pilots field of view, or because 00 can only teleport in a straight line? x.x The enemy thing isn't really accurate MS have a rear camera feed, and of course 00+Raiser is invisible so it's pretty inconsiquental... x.x Teleporting is basically instant transmission from one point to another, nothing to suggest it's limited to a straight line of sight, and the first one, well, it's kinda obvious that Setsuna would be seeing the enemy that's in front of him. x.x

said Enemy MS has weapons on it's back to counter the 00-Raizer

Which aside from the Reborn Canon, no MS features...

Gekigangar

05-27-2009, 03:24 AM

Preference aside it's a mistake to auto assume it's going to be behind you. As it goes wherever the pilot feels like. Hence if you're looking behind you and he teleports to your left you're dead... The entire point here si that there is no set pattern for this move and expectign it everytime to be from behind will likely get you killed...

No, it is not a mistake. It's a good bet. Where the pilot feels like is to the back to avoid counter attacks.

If you notice, when he did teleport to the sides, no one died. Front and Side attacks are easier to counter attack from than a back attack. Setsuna favors back attack because side attacks do not give him the critical hit. It gives his opponent time to react. The point is, if you know your opponent's favored tactic, you can use it against him.

And then he figures out you're expecting and he teleports other places and you're screwed. x.x

And once he knows that the opponent expects his tactic, he will think twice in trying to teleport to the back of MSes as he will not know which way they will be facing when he re-appears.

Back to back will do what? Setsuna is obviously not going to appear behind you if he realizes the machines are close enought o go back to back. He likely appears at the side. x.x The kid isn't stupid. He teleported behind people when there was no chance in hell they were going to be able to defend against it. Plus I question how a lone mobile suit S-Freedom can do back to back without an MS to go back to back with it. Unless you suggest Kira spreads his DRAGOON's to watch his back, but then what's to stop Setsuna from exiting his teleport to take out the DRAGOON's from behind? I mean let's face it those are just giant targets to Setsuna by this point in 00. He's already shown enough precision to hurl beam daggers are GN fangs, both faster and more deadly then the DRAGOON's.

Back to back will mean no blind spot to attack from. It gives them a good chance to counter attack. And no, I am not suggesting anything about Strike Freedom. I'm suggesting that a well prepared squad with knowledge of 00-Raizer's tactics is able to put up a decent fight against it.

Generally because it's the most vulnerable place to attack someone. It's no different then fighter pilots trying to turn, climb, and dive to get on someone's 6'o'clock. The rear is simply the best position to shoot someone out of the sky.

Precisely, because to counter attack from the back is either not possible or difficult.

>.> It's line of sight? What are you suggesting with it's line of sight? He teleports there because it's in his field of view, because it's not in the enemy pilots field of view, or because 00 can only teleport in a straight line? x.x The enemy thing isn't really accurate MS have a rear camera feed, and of course 00+Raiser is invisible so it's pretty inconsiquental... x.x Teleporting is basically instant transmission from one point to another, nothing to suggest it's limited to a straight line of sight, and the first one, well, it's kinda obvious that Setsuna would be seeing the enemy that's in front of him. x.x

He teleports there because it is difficult to counterattack from that position. Out of the enemy's line of sight. By the time their warning system confirms that 00-Raizer is behind them, it's kinda a bit late.

Think about it.

00-Raizer teleports out of sight.
You waste time looking around to the front,side,top and bottom.
Your warning systems beeps that 00-Raizer is behind.
You turn your MS towards it to counter.

How much time is wasted? A lot.

Compared to :

00-Raizer teleports out of sight.
You turn your mech 180 degress looking forward, up and down to see the materialization process.
You prepare your counter attack and trash the 00-Raizer when it fully materializes.
Setsuna is given a rude awakening.

Much better.

Which aside from the Reborn Canon, no MS features...

Indeed, so thus attacking from the back is the best way to avoid a counter attack, unless said suit can attack from the back OR sports some heavy armor/defense system that can survive the preliminary attack from 00-Raizer.