Hitler

[Cax]

This may be a taboo subject for some, but not for me.

I'd appreciate if everyone here would post their views about Hitler, if perhaps my vision on him could be cleared. And also if perhaps maybe some information, not influenced by hatred or common views on Hitler/Nazis could be posted - some down to earth stuff, material not out in the open for everyone to see.

I'm not lying when I say I've not much knowledge about him, apart from the stereotypical view influenced by my upbringing and society. Also, since this is a discussion about Hitler, Nazis are no short of being relative to this thread.

I was cruisin youtube and saw a comment which made me want to make this. I can elaborate what I'm looking for more thoroughly if I need to, but, here's the quote:

"I promise you I am quite free from all racial hatred. It is, in any case, undesirable that one race should mix with other races. Except for a few gratuitous success, which I am prepared to admit, systematic crossbreeding has never produced good results. Its desire to remain racially pure is proof of the vitality and good health of a race. Pride in one's own race -- and that does not imply contempt for other races -- is also a normal and healthy sentiment.

I have never regarded the Chinese or Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own."
- Adolf Hitler

^It just poked my motivation to find more out.

[PerveeSage]

IMO, Hitler was someone abused so far that he believed the bad things he was doing were good. His strategies and ideas were so good he might have been able to take over the world, had he not been shot up with, heroin i think it was, every day by his doctor.

Taking a close look at Hitler myself, i believe there are important lessons to be learned from his history, but only if you are intelligent enough to separate his good from his bad.

[parker pyne]

Either that quote is wrongly attributed to Hitler or just an excerpt from one of Hitler's propaganda speeches, because he did believe in a superior race. In his book he wrote "Civilisation was almost exclusively the product of the Aryan creative power... it was the Aryan alone who founded a superior type of humanity." To Hitler, the Jew represented a complete contrast to the Aryan race, hence his anti-Semitism.

It actually sounds like a quote from this forum (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/), a white nationalist site. It's funny. Check it out. :gar

I have not made up my mind about him, but I can post information that I've learnt from my textbook :gar

- In his book Mein Kampf (My Struggle), he suggested that his family was poor and he had a childhood of hardship, when in actually he was raised in a middle class household which was comfortable for the standards of the day.
- he had a poor relationship with his stern and inflexible father, who did not appreciate Hitler's growing love for art.
- left school at age 15, then applied to enter the Vienna Academy of Arts but was rejected. Applied again about 3 years later; rejected again. He was actually pretty damn good at painting architectural structures, but had trouble with the human figure.
http://ferdyonfilms.com/Europa%20Hitler%20painting.JPG
- When WW1 broke out in 1914, Hitler joined the army. Seved the entire war. "The war," he wrote, "was the greatest and most unforgettable time of my life."
- During his reign, he was strongly affected by the ideals of social darwinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism) - the idea that the strong prevail over the weak...
- Mmkay, here is what my textbook states: "It is difficult to believe that the Nazis would have come to power without Hitler. The force of this personality drove the movement and he sought power with a ruthless will and determination. He had a passion to dominate and an absolute belief in himself as a man destined by fate to lead the German people. "
- Hitler took the ideas of the philosopher Nietzsche and twisted it to fit his own perverted aims.
- The nazis believed in eugenics, the idea of improving a race through selective breeding. People were sterilised who had particular diseases or handicaps to stop them from passing on any undesirable genes. You could be sterilised for being "feeble-minded", according to the law at the time.
- Hitler had nothing but contempt for Christianity, as he viewed it as an opposing force to his established government.
- The Nazi regime held massive book burning sessions for novels which were considered "ungerman". This included books by jewish authors, book with liberal views, and books which disseminated pacifist ideals.
- Concentration camps were established to dump any people deemed desirable by the Nazis. This included Jehovah's Witnesses, gypsies, homosexuals, alcoholics, drifters.

CBF typing more


but one more, probably useless tidbit:


HITLER'S REPORT CARD! :beardthing

Moral Conduct / 3 / Satisfactory
Diligence / 4 / Erratic
Religion / 4 / Adequate
Geography & History / 4 / Adequate
Mathematics / 5 / Inadequate
Chemistry / 4 / Adequate
Physics / 3 / Satisfactory
Geometry / 4 / Adequate
Freehand Drawing / 2 / Praiseworthy
Gymnastics / 1 / Excellent
Handwriting / 5/ Unpleasing

[Sesshomaru]

Hitler's actions were cruel and evil. However, he was a brilliant leader for his people. There is no question about that.

[Sama'el]

What I find interesting about Hitler is that in the entire discussion about his atrocities, no one ever mentions who he came after first. The first people Hitler had killed werent' Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals.

He went after the socialists and communists first, espescially the trade union leaders.

[Doc. Q]

Poor military strategist. Marvelous media madman.

[parker pyne]

What I find interesting about Hitler is that in the entire discussion about his atrocities, no one ever mentions who he came after first. The first people Hitler had killed werent' Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals.

He went after the socialists and communists first, espescially the trade union leaders.

Apparently he thought Jews and the communist party were interrelated? But then again, naturally he would be against the far left, he himself stationed on the other end of the spectrum...

As for socialism, I thought the Nazi party was a socialist party in some respects (as it was usually called the National Socialist Party) - Hitler's idea of socialism was that all Germans, regardless of class of income, should work together for the national good. So I'm confused.

[AestheticizeAnalog]

Apparently he thought Jews and the communist party were interrelated? But then again, naturally he would be against the far left, he himself stationed on the other end of the spectrum...

Yes, he associated jews with communism.

I disagree regarding the spectrum. Mussolini and Lenin had many common influences, and I would argue that fascism and marxism-leninism are extremely close in their general form and attitude, although distinct in their purported ends. Both are emancipatory ideologies that hold no regard for non-linguistic practical knowledge that arises through dialogue and social practise, and try to apply an ideology solely based on instrumental technical knowledge.

The distinction is the end, in that fascism wishes to emancipate and bring greatness to the nation and create a heaven on earth for the volk, whereas leninism wishes to apply principles to create a heaven on earth for humanity qua humanity in principle.

As for socialism, I thought the Nazi party was a socialist party in some respects (as it was usually called the National Socialist Party) - Hitler's idea of socialism was that all Germans, regardless of class of income, should work together for the national good. So I'm confused.

He was an economic collectivist (to be more exact, a nationalist), although not an egalitarian. His opposition to most socialists, communists and trade union leaders was there rejection of social hierarchy and their egalitarianism, and their lack of allegiance to the state which constituted god for fascists.

Calling Hitler a socialist can only be made sense of, if socialism is meant in the sense of state control of production, for which industry largely still remained in private hands in name, it operated as a command economy.

[Cinna]

Apparently he thought Jews and the communist party were interrelated? But then again, naturally he would be against the far left, he himself stationed on the other end of the spectrum...

As for socialism, I thought the Nazi party was a socialist party in some respects (as it was usually called the National Socialist Party) - Hitler's idea of socialism was that all Germans, regardless of class of income, should work together for the national good. So I'm confused.

You have to differentiate between the slightly left-winged SPD (those are the ones he was after, the democratic-socialist party) and his own right-winged party which he claimed was socialist, too. It was socialist in that it was for the german people, but had nothing in common with the other socialist ideologies.

What suprises/scares me the most is how he managed to deceive so many people ( ok, he had a perfect propaganda apparatus), but still. Alot of people knew that there was something wrong about him, but didn't do anything about it. I admire the Scholl siblings for their courage and other fighters, who wouldn't let anything blind them.

Born and raised in Germany as a black I always come across leftovers of that time, be it buildings, stamps, old money, stories from people, literature or films and it always drives shivers down my spine.

[Cax]

Cheers for all the replies (especially you, Mashed). Any more? What were Hitler's battle plans like? And someone mentioned his doctor giving him heroin?

[Kokain]

Either that quote is wrongly attributed to Hitler or just an excerpt from one of Hitler's propaganda speeches, because he did believe in a superior race. In his book he wrote "Civilisation was almost exclusively the product of the Aryan creative power... it was the Aryan alone who founded a superior type of humanity." To Hitler, the Jew represented a complete contrast to the Aryan race, hence his anti-Semitism.

Probably propaganda, yeah. Especially based on his track record of exterminating Jews.

Or you could interpret the quote as being true, but Hitler didn't regard the Jews as part of the human race, just something more along the lines of AIDS.

It actually sounds like a quote from this forum (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/), a white nationalist site. It's funny. Check it out. :gar

Those people are hilarious. I remember after Obama won the presidency one of the first things I did was go to Stormfront to see what the Ku Klux Komedians had to say. :laugh 25+ pages of pee in your pants paranoia about the imminent race riots...I don't even know.

Some of them really love east Asians though, in accordance with that Hitler quote in the OP. :oh

* * * *

Regarding the people who agree with the viewpoint espoused by that quote, most of them prefer the term "white separatist" rather than "white supremacist" (or "black separatist", or whatever). Similarly they'd rather be called "racialist" than "racist."

Mostly they support racially homogeneous nations and oppose multiculturalism because they believe that the unique identities of different cultures should be preserved and celebrated, rather than thrown together in the international melting pot where each gets bastardized by outside influences. Then the argument runs that race is a crucial part of cultural identity, which is why racial separatism is necessary. If they're canny enough they'll try back their claims with some actual studies, like this one (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/04/the_downside_of_diversity/?p1=email_to_a_friend) (that's not the study itself, just a more convenient summary, but you can find the complete thing online pretty easily).

I can sympathize with the cultural preservation bit, since what happens in a some cases when two cultures encounter each other is absorption rather than integration, which turns the absorbed culture into a tourist attraction and cultural icons into cheap trinkets, key chains and coffee-mug images in gift shops. Of course, that doesn't mean I think that segregating all the people in the world into racially based nations is the only solution. A simple respect for others and their personal (cultural) space goes a long way.

In any case, there are benefits to diversity (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/science/08conv.html?_r=2&ref=science&oref=slogin) as well as downsides. You see the benefits everywhere, from artistic achievements to technological advances. Most of it comes from inter-cultural/national/racial collaboration of various forms (even if it's only incidental) and the widespread availability of information.

While I like the idea of preserving different cultures (to a certain extent; radical Islam can go fuck a cheese grater filled with potassium chloride) and not have everything degenerate into McDonald's and Wal-Mart, and while I understand the solidarity that can result from being surrounded by people who are similar to yourself (being of the same race usually means having comparable upbringings, and hence a similar background and pool of collective experience over which to bond), I've never understood the idea of having pride in one's race. How random Stormfront member #78934 thinks he can share in the glory of Goethe's achievement just because they both happen to be white is beyond me. Pride can only apply to things that you've accomplished yourself; it's hardly a worthy achievement to begin your existence as the union of a sperm and egg cell of a specific denomination.

Racial supremacy is even more backwards a train of thought than racial separatism, regardless of whatever scientific studies they pervert to their cause (mostly IQ testing data, I believe).

I disagree with both ideologies.

* * * *

As for Hitler himself, he was an interesting specimen. He played a fairly large role in shaping modern ideas about genocide and establishing the modern stigma associated with racism. The international laws that outlaw genocide are pretty much based on knowledge about the Jewish Holocaust.

I suppose the development of his Messiah complex and the results of the cult of personality that he built around himself using his massive propaganda machine also hold many lessons for historians and sociologists, but I don't know too much about that.

[Karol!]

well, in the Chinese zodiac, Hitler was year of the Ox and one of their traits is that in hard times, they get really mean :|

[masamune1]

IMO, Hitler was someone abused so far that he believed the bad things he was doing were good. His strategies and ideas were so good he might have been able to take over the world, had he not been shot up with, heroin i think it was, every day by his doctor.

Taking a close look at Hitler myself, i believe there are important lessons to be learned from his history, but only if you are intelligent enough to separate his good from his bad.

Hitler did'nt start getting heroin until 1942. By that point the Nazi's already established a brutal authoritarian regime, instigated programs of racial abuse and eugenics, started WW2 of course, and started to get underway with the early parts of the Holocaust.

As far as his strategy goes, Hitler was not the tactical genius he made himself out to be, and most German successes came from having a powerful armed forces (which he encouraged and arranged for, but did not directly oversee) and from listening to his generals. That things went downhill when he started thinking he knew better than everyone in the room is not really due to his heroin since it is a pretty consistent theme troughout his life.

His strategies were not so good that he could take over the world- he was dependant mostly on having a strong and able army beneath him. When he did take charge he was, at best, competent, but far from a strategic mastermind. Things like Russia actually had some fairly sound tactical groundings and were undone partly by the sheer ferocity of the Soviets rather than blunders- but the point is, please don't blame the drugs. They were'nt good for him, but they were'nt the instrument of his downfall.


Hitler's actions were cruel and evil. However, he was a brilliant leader for his people. There is no question about that.

Unless you are a half-decent historian, most of whom think he was a crap leader.

Living standards and wages dropped to levels lower than in the Weimar Republic, despite the drop in unemployment. Hitler's economic policies (and he knew hardly anything about economics) more or less neccesitated war due to extreme military deficit spending.

The Nazi state was a bueracratic mess with several different institutions competing for the same job (eg. the Party, the SS and the state all had their own foreign affairs departments, all freuently undermining each other). Most of the Nazi ministers and brass hated each other and spent a good deal of their time plotting a rivals downfall, when they were'nt busy trying to expand their personal empires.

Free speech was non-existent; the death penalty could be given for vandalism; Jews and other racial minorities were persecuted; supposed political enemies were thrown into conentration camps; friends, family and neighbours and co-workers were enouraged to spy and report on each other; any rival pseudo-political organizatin- right down to youth clubs- were stamped out....

And Hitler? He did nothing almost very day. He spent most of his time either pouring over insane architectural plans or making speeches to his entourage about art and other stuff (he was also apparently incredibly boring to be around like that). Foreign policy and the occasional persecution or compulsory euthanisia order aside, he did hardly any government work at all.

And he was hell-bent on dragging Germany into another great war, and another, and another. He wanted a state that lived in perpetual violence and was continually on-edge, which is the attitude that led to WW2 and would likely have led to others. He was a terrible leader.

What I find interesting about Hitler is that in the entire discussion about his atrocities, no one ever mentions who he came after first. The first people Hitler had killed werent' Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals.

He went after the socialists and communists first, espescially the trade union leaders.

The majority of them were not killed- they were closed down, interrogated, beaten, sent to camps, but relatively few were outright executed.

The reason he went after them first (though laws against the Jews- lighter than what was to come, but still there- were implemented very early) was because they were active political threats. Exagerrated threats, but threats nonetheless. The Communists in particular were widely suspected of taking orders from Moscow- as it turns out, rightly so (though Stalin actually ordered the KPD to help the Nazi's come to power and to more or less co-operate, or at least not resist).

They were also much easier to clamp down on since, whilst the Jews were (esp. to the Nazi's, who concerned you a Jew on racial grounds which meant religion was irrelevant and even just a Jewish grandparent made all the difference) more spread out throughout society and thus harder to identify, Socialist and Communist groups were more clealy organized and easier to identify. It was pragmatic and tactical as much as it was ideological.

The Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals are brought up because the Holocaust overshadows all of that by quite a bit (though lets not forget many left-wingers died in that too). The banning and criminalising of rival and suspect political organizations does'nt compare to the engineered mass murder of 10 million people, motivated mostly by xenophobia, prejudice and racism.

[masamune1]

As for Hitler himself, he was an interesting specimen. He played a fairly large role in shaping modern ideas about genocide and establishing the modern stigma associated with racism. The international laws that outlaw genocide are pretty much based on knowledge about the Jewish Holocaust.

I suppose the development of his Messiah complex and the results of the cult of personality that he built around himself using his massive propaganda machine also hold many lessons for historians and sociologists, but I don't know too much about that.

Well, actually, the laws about genocide were established in response to the Armenian massacre perpetrated some years prior. Hitler was the first serious example of Genocide after that and by far the worst in history, but the laws pre-dated him.

Also I do know a bit about his Messiah complex and personality cult, if anyone wants to know. Historian Ian Kershaw would probably be the expert for anyone interested in learning more about it.

[avraell]

As far as his strategy goes, Hitler was not the tactical genius he made himself out to be, and most German successes came from having a powerful armed forces (which he encouraged and arranged for, but did not directly oversee) and from listening to his generals.

One of which was Erwin fucking Rommel, a true badass. Hitler fucked him up by not providing back up when Erwin requested it, although Erwin led his forces against pretty outrageous odds. If he came back to Europe with his panzer divisions, some shit was gonna get fucked. Of course, Hitler had to fuck this up too and say no. So Hitler had to Antarctica and hide in the icebergs with the remnants of the Wolfpack like a bitch. I made that last sentence up.

Although, I guess Rommel wasn't really a nazi at heart, wanting to overthrow Hitler since he cant lead for shit, and all that.

[dreams lie]

What I find interesting about Hitler is that in the entire discussion about his atrocities, no one ever mentions who he came after first. The first people Hitler had killed werent' Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals.

He went after the socialists and communists first, espescially the trade union leaders.

He was competing for power. Also, for as I'm too lazy to expand on another Nazi thread, Marx was a Jew. :WOW

[Kokain]

Well, actually, the laws about genocide were established in response to the Armenian massacre perpetrated some years prior. Hitler was the first serious example of Genocide after that and by far the worst in history, but the laws pre-dated him.

International law? I was thinking of the U.N. and the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which didn't convene until after WWII. But you're probably right about there being legal measures against genocide already in place before the Holocaust.

Speaking of Armenia, Hitler learned a rather unfortunate lesson from the Armenian Genocide. In 1939 he is quoted as saying, "Who today still speaks of the massacre of the Armenians?"

[Chee]

That painting that Hitler did that someone posted brings up a kinda amusing event that happened in my 10th grade English class.

We were going over the holocaust and my teacher brings out Hitler's drawing. I mean they are fantastic drawings, and I admired them. I thought it was kinda funny how people said, "they aren't really good..." and I think they just said that because it was from Hitler's hand.

I despise Hitler for his beliefs and the way he handled them, but that man could draw.

[Altron]

he was a grade A dumbass for fighting a war on two fronts and invading Russia :zaru

[avraell]

Marx was a Jew.

I fucking hate Marx, his dumb ass mooched all his life and then he dares write some theories? FUCK YOU MARX! Maybe if he got off his ass and actually did something instead of having Engels pay for all his shit like some kind of overly-generous gay pimp, I would take him a bit more seriously.

We were going over the holocaust and my teacher brings out Hitler's drawing. I mean they are fantastic drawings, and I admired them. I thought it was kinda funny how people said, "they aren't really good..." and I think they just said that because it was from Hitler's hand.

I despise Hitler for his beliefs and the way he handled them, but that man could draw.

I agree, I was pleasantly surprised when I googled his art, at least in terms of landscapes, architecture, and flowers. His nudes and women in general are quite lackluster though.

[PerveeSage]

Hitler did'nt start getting heroin until 1942. By that point the Nazi's already established a brutal authoritarian regime, instigated programs of racial abuse and eugenics, started WW2 of course, and started to get underway with the early parts of the Holocaust.

As far as his strategy goes, Hitler was not the tactical genius he made himself out to be, and most German successes came from having a powerful armed forces (which he encouraged and arranged for, but did not directly oversee) and from listening to his generals. That things went downhill when he started thinking he knew better than everyone in the room is not really due to his heroin since it is a pretty consistent theme troughout his life.

His strategies were not so good that he could take over the world- he was dependant mostly on having a strong and able army beneath him. When he did take charge he was, at best, competent, but far from a strategic mastermind. Things like Russia actually had some fairly sound tactical groundings and were undone partly by the sheer ferocity of the Soviets rather than blunders- but the point is, please don't blame the drugs. They were'nt good for him, but they were'nt the instrument of his downfall.


link on Hitler's doctor. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell) Theodor Morell had Hitler on several substances, some which are known drugs, some plainly toxic. He was dosed and injected at least once a day, sometimes more than once. look at the list of substances on the list and tell me that would not have had an effect on his judgment.

I remember hearing a quote from an A&E documentary where Theodore tells his interrogators something along the lines of Hitler being so badly drugged he would eventually cause himself ruin. I will look briskly for the quote online. The point being, even Hitlers own doctor thought the drugs had a significant effect. True his own ideas were not so good, but perhaps if he weren't so drugged, he might have listened to his generals, or what had he.

Hitler's war endeavors shy in comparison to his media abilities. Most of my interest in Hitler is about this subject, and a lot of my study points to Erik Hanussen (http://paranormal.about.com/od/othermystics/a/aa082508.htm). Hanussen taught Hitler crowd control gestures, and looked into Hitler's future, telling him "you cannot be stopped." I believe i am figuring out what it was that Hitler had learned for his persuasion.

Edit; oh, i also believe hitler was a great leader. not necessarily for what he did to his people, but because of what his people saw from him. Just like Obama today, Hitler was a figurehead for hope to a people facing a bleak future, and people followed Hitler for the alternate reality he offered.

[avraell]

^Man, thanks for the Hanussen shit, this explains a lot, and he seems quite interesting himself.

[MajorThor]

He united a nation under extreme duress. Had great charisma and tried to purge the world of some vile evils. All around good guy imo.

[Cinna]

This is actually the first time I am hearing about Hitler being on drugs on a regular basis, but I don't think that is an excuse for the cruel things he did or for his downfall. Hitler had been a person who had always thought greater of himself than he actually was (hence his efforts to get into art school during his youth) and he eventually became a megalomaniac. His famous book, Mein Kampf, which he wrote during the years of 1923-1925 while he was in prison after charged for treason (Beer Hall Putsch) pretty much sums up all the plans he had in regards to his future picture of Germany. I haven't read it, since the book is on the blacklist here in Germany, but I think that excerpts of the book are enough to prove that he was simply a dark, evil person. He knew very well what he was doing and he had planned a lot of it long before anyone even knew who he was.
In my opinion Hitler was a classic megalomaniac gone bad.

He wasn't a great leader either, because in my opinion great leaders do not sacrifice their own people for power. Hitler was a good liar and knew how to twist stories till their fit what he wanted (eg. Nieztsche). If you look at the years just before WWII broke out, Hitler constantly spoke of peace with other nations while the german army was going through rearmament, ready to attack at any time. He actually singned a peace treaty with Poland and had an alliance with Russia, countries which he later on attacked.

When the Reichstag was set on fire February 1933, he used that as an excuse to "suspend" the german constitution. First he blamed communists for setting it on fire. That enabled him to suspend all basic rights (Weimarer Constitution §48,2) and simply put anyone in prison as he or his men desired. (Reichtagsverordnungen). During the entire time of Hitlers reign, people did not even have basic rights. That's not a great leader in my opinion.

The reason why people who belonged to other political parties were locked up in concetration camps first was because he feared they would still come to execute their rights in the Reichtag. (Which the actually tried ti do during the first and last "free" elections during Hitlers time). And as if that was not enough, he actually SA people to simply beat the crap of anyone opposing party who would dare show up to vote. (March '33)

Thats just mentioning very few of the awful things he did. He was not great, maybe he just seemed great. And please don't compae him to Obama.

[DeterminedIdiot]

Hitler was a man who wanted a "perfect" world. he just didnt realize there isnt such thing

[Cirus]

Hitler when comming to power and a small part after he came to power had many good ideas. Some of which came about and were accepted by the world. Does the economy car that many people own ring a bell. A car that is afordable to all people and can be mass produced. He also had several other good idea. Though when he started doing the bad things he did I blame those on his bad judgement due to drugs and his generals and staff which also made things worse. What he ended up doing which created his legacy is very bad and wrong.

[Cinna]

At all the people who say Hitler was a great guy or actually did some great things before WWII and all that began. Are you really aware that most of those "good" things were simply done out of propaganda reasons.

People also say that he built the Autobahn which in their opinion was good aswell and he founded Volkswagen. Most of those projects were founded by money (a lot of it) that had been taken away from the Jews. A lot of famous german enterprises actually had blood on their hands for a long time. Another example: ThyssenKrupp that made bombs, planes... .

I am telling you, you wouldn't think that way if you've been two former concentrations camps. You wouldn't think that way if one of your campus buildings of your uni had been a former labotoroy where "zyklon b" was developed and researched on. A very poisonous gas that was used to kill people in concentrations camps. You wouldn't think that way if you hat to ride past the factory where "zyklon b" was manufactured everyday on your way to school or work. Believe me, I know what I am talking about.