Setsuna is underrated.

[Sander RX]

So some of the 00 viewers are high on calling Setsunas piloting skills subpar.I thought that after Setsuna's nice walkthrough of the S1 final boss gauntlet,people would stop bashing him...or atleast reduce the volume of bashing,but reality is grim.:cry

Major points against Setsuna in S1 are:
He is weak and too dependant on his Gundam,it was stated so by Alejandro
True,but that was in the first half of the season.Sestsuna improved greatly since then,infact most Gundam pilots start as weakling noobs...look at what Amuro Ray was and what he became.On top of that...who commented on overreliance again?Same Alejandro Setsuna rapestomped at the end of the season?:nod

Setsuna always looses to better pilots:
Actually he never lost.Was overwhelmed and outpiloted?Yes.Lost?No.

Like Sergei
1)Sergei is the best pilot of 00 alongside Ali(Word of God).
2)Setsuna was in his "noob stage".

Or Graham
Okay,Setsuna flatout beat Graham in their first encounter.In their second run in,Setsuna was returning to base after a succesful mission and didnt have any plans to fight Graham whatsoever.Their final battle in space ended with with a draw...despite Exia being weakened.

Or Ali
Not only is Ali one of the best pilots out there,he also knows Setsuna's fighting style inside out,since he taught the damn thing to him.Thus,Ali can read his moves in melee and pre-emtively knows what Setsuna will throw at him.Hell he can even read his evasion pattern as shown in ep.6.

Setsunas growth in S1:
Starting somwhere from ep.12-13 Setsuna's piloting starts going up.
1)If you compare Sesuna/Ali encounter in ep.6-7 to their encounter in ep.13,you will notice that Setsuna does a ton better.
2)During anti-gundam battle of attrition,Setsuna lasts till sunrise.
3)He performs excellently well for first encounter with remote weapons.The way he took out those Fangs was...beutiful.He also showed great co-op with Tieria.
4)In ep.21,he is the only Meister to kill a GN-X.
5)Do I have to mention the gauntlet of hell?How good is fighting Alvatore ,then Alvaaron and then raging Graham in his Flag Custom II aka GN Flag?

Major points against Setsuna in S2:
Setsuna was rapestomped by Ginin in ep1
Lets review the condition of Exia:
*Lacks left arm.
*Lacks all armaments but GN Sword.That very sword is in bad shape.
*Most likely has GN Condensers messed up,explaining Trans Am not being used.
*Most likely has thruster system messed up,limiting mobility.
*Lacking GN Shield,its only defence is GN Sword...Ahead can cut through that,so yeah...
*Only thing functioning up to par is GN Composite armor.

Now lets review the Ahead:
*Its 4-5 years newer and advanced than Exia.
*Ahead's HG Manual reveals that it is SUPERIOR to 3rd gen gundams.
*Too further reinforce that,Hobby Japan(or whatever the hell its called) suggested that if one rates S1 Gundams power 100,Ahead would be 140 while S2 gundams except 00 would be 150.That would mean that gap between tip-top condition Exia and Ahead is 4 times bigger than between Ahead and any S2 CB gundam that isnt called 00!:amazed And if Cherudim,Seravee and Arios dominate normal Aheads with just a gap of 10,then just how much superior is Ahead to fucked up Exia Repair?!:uwah
And Ginin is a strong pilot that can use the power of his Ahead...Plus there was a GN-XIII...
^Taking all this into account,lasting as much as he did only proves Setsuna being a good pilot(he also shot of Ginins shield:awesome).

Setsuna needed Trans Am to beat Graha...Mr.Bushido.
1)Graham is still one of the best of 00...plus I think he devoted his free time to perfecting his fighting skills and watching last samurai,since fighting a certain Gundam became his main goal in life.
2)Bushido had 4 years to train,while Setsuna only had Exia's simulator to work with...if its still working that is.
3)00 was underperforming due to sync lack.Notice how it hang in air after kicking Bushido giving him an opening to counterattack?
4)As strong as Ahead already is,Bushido's Ahead Sagikage is custom version for tuned Bushido's godly skills,that is monster at melee and is very fast.
5)Being able to exchange blows with fighting-centered Graham(ep.4,00 at better performance) is already an achievement.
+Even Bushido commented on Setsuna's improved shooting.

Setsuna wins his recent fights only because of 00 Raisers's haxx
That barrelroll ...Ali was surprised with Setsuna pulling that off in his conditon and it isnt easy to handle something as fast and powerfull 00-Raiser,yet Setsuna does well.

Disclaimers:
1)I dont foolishly think that Graham is inferior to Setsuna.
2)I acknowledge that Setsuna isnt the best pilot in 00...atm.
3)Kira Yamato is overrated :zaru

[Shodai]

I think the latest fight with Ali proves he's always getting better, and he's pretty damn good now. The 00 Raiser may be a god like MS in the 00verse, but remember that shot of Setsuna following all the fangs with his eyes manually? That's a sign of an ace right there.

[Halcyon Days]

I'll go with Shodai, H's getting progressively better over time.

[Red Zaku]

Setsuna's getting better but when Graham's new machine sheads it's armor to reveal GN-Flag.... Setsuna will be screwed.

[Shodai]

Setsuna's getting better but when Graham's new machine sheds it's armor to reveal GN-Flag.... Setsuna will be screwed.

That would be amazing

If he followed that up with a "I AM A FLAG FIGHTERRRRRRR, THIS IS FOR YOU DARRYL AND HOWARDO MASON!" I would die of awesome exposure.

[Rukia]

Setsuna has had the best mobile suit since Day 1. So I have no idea how good of a pilot he is. He doesn't seem particularly intelligent or resourceful though. I've never seen him reprogram his mobile suit on the fly or kick sand up to blind his enemies or anything.

[ChocolateBar999]

Setsuna has had the best mobile suit since Day 1. So I have no idea how good of a pilot he is. He doesn't seem particularly intelligent or resourceful though. I've never seen him reprogram his mobile suit on the fly or kick sand up to blind his enemies or anything.
I've never really notice myself since he has had the best mobile suit so words like hax doesn't really seem efficient enough since we've never seen him pilot anything outside Exia although he taking out two Aheads in a damaged mobile suit in the first episode may show some indication of his skill.

[Shodai]

He drew with Graham in a powered down (due to transam) injured Exia after being fairly exhausted and having no rest. That's pretty good. And that was 4 years ago.

[Tre_azam]

he is getting better but like most anime, his emotions make him better. regardless he's still sexy F. seiei

[Triste Morningstar]

Setsuna is a fine pilot. To be honest, I like the fact that there's a limit on his fighting abilities and I like the fact that he doesn't massacre every opponent. Every fight in the second season is a struggle. There really is a great deal of suspense involved - not necessarily that Setsuna will die but that CB's goals will be seriously impeded somehow at the very least.

Also, I think the hints of his true talent are a bit more subtle than they often are in Gundam series. I mean, there are feats he performs that are pretty damn amazing as far as dodging goes that aren't noted or heavily emphasized in the show. I think we're used to a lot of hype with main characters - a main character does something cool, and someone else in the show flips out and says WOW, DID YOU FUCKING SEE THAT? THAT WAS AMAZING! There's really almost none of that in this show - you have to watch the action and let it speak for itself.

[Graham Aker]

Setsuna's definitely gotten better. But wut about Tieria? Only a slight improvement. Still relies on gimmicks.

Anyway, Mister Bushido and Setsuna are probably the best pilots in 00.
Heck, since I'm bored...

tier 0(god tier)
Saji Crossroad :awesome

tier 1
Mister Bushido
Setsuna F. Seiei

tier 2
Ali Al Saachez

tier 3
Bring Stabity
Revive Revival
Soma Pieres
Barrack Jinin

tier 4
Healing Care
Lockon Stratos
Tieria Erde

tier 5
Louise Halvey
Allelujah Haptism(4 year imprisonment damn it... you know, he's only downed 1 MS so far this season by himself, if memory serves)
Andrei Smirnov

tier 6
Patrick Colasour :LOS

Sergei and Hal didn't pilot anything this season, so they don't count.

[Shodai]

tier 5
Andrei Smirnov

I don't think so, Jim. The creators of the show even acknowledged he is the best pilot.

[Graham Aker]

I don't think so, Jim. The creators of the show even acknowledged he is the best pilot.
You're talking about his daddy, Sergei Smirnov.

Boo-yah!

[Sander RX]

I think we're used to a lot of hype with main characters - a main character does something cool, and someone else in the show flips out and says WOW, DID YOU FUCKING SEE THAT? THAT WAS AMAZING! There's really almost none of that in this show - you have to watch the action and let it speak for itself.
Epic win sir.

[Shodai]

You're talking about his daddy, Sergei Smirnov.

Boo-yah!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

*ends self*

[Goodfellow]

Setsuna has had the best mobile suit since Day 1. So I have no idea how good of a pilot he is. He doesn't seem particularly intelligent or resourceful though. I've never seen him reprogram his mobile suit on the fly or kick sand up to blind his enemies or anything.

I've always called bullshit on the "reprogram on the fly" shtick.

Seriously, it's bullshit.

"Ah, look at me! I can recalculate complex movement algorithms by sitting in the pilot's seat for the first time. I'm so awesome and believable:awesome"

[Wesley]

I've always called bullshit on the "reprogram on the fly" shtick.

Seriously, it's bullshit.

"Ah, look at me! I can recalculate complex movement algorithms by sitting in the pilot's seat for the first time. I'm so awesome and believable:awesome"

It's not that unbelieveable when you think about it. Kira was an aspiring engineer, so the mechanical processes of the suit probably weren't difficult to grasp, and that computer programming could be made to be even easier in the future is practically a given. So assuming he wasn't too ignorant and that he was smart enough to fully appreciate the task in front of him, he could probably do it in the alloted time.

It's not that hard to imagine, since he was working on what was basically a minature MS in his classroom.

Whether it's believeable, that's based upon your willingness to accept the promise of genetics or that computer programming will make complicated tasks easier and faster to perform. Personally I put more stock in the latter, since that's an everyday occurance.

[Saiko]

No one can beat the Immortal Colasour..

Wait until he will activate in his Ahead Trans-Am,

[Goodfellow]

It's not that unbelieveable when you think about it. Kira was an aspiring engineer, so the mechanical processes of the suit probably weren't difficult to grasp, and that computer programming could be made to be even easier in the future is practically a given. So assuming he wasn't too ignorant and that he was smart enough to fully appreciate the task in front of him, he could probably do it in the alloted time.

It's not that hard to imagine, since he was working on what was basically a minature MS in his classroom.

Whether it's believeable, that's based upon your willingness to accept the promise of genetics or that computer programming will make complicated tasks easier and faster to perform. Personally I put more stock in the latter, since that's an everyday occurance.

Yeah well I still call bullshit at successfully reprogramming the movement algorithms of a HUMONGOUS WALKING ROBOT in less than a few minutes (on screen):zaru

[Triste Morningstar]

Yeah well I still call bullshit at successfully reprogramming the movement algorithms of a HUMONGOUS WALKING ROBOT in less than a few minutes (on screen):zaru

There are a lot of things in Gundam that are pretty ridiculous, but this definitely tops them. But Kira Yamato was supposed to be some sort of souped-up superhuman, right?

[RAGING BONER]

i blame fucking assholes like Raging Boner for the necessity of such threads.

[Sander RX]

i blame fucking assholes like Raging Boner for the necessity of such threads.

To tell the truth,yes.It was after you called Setsuna a shit-pilot that I made this.

[Wesley]

Yeah well I still call bullshit at successfully reprogramming the movement algorithms of a HUMONGOUS WALKING ROBOT in less than a few minutes (on screen):zaru

I suggest believeing in the assumption that most of the work was already done for him.

[Goodfellow]

There's too many assumptions necessary. That's why it breaks believability.

Especially when you know that the reason why that scene even exists is because they wanted to one-up Amuro Ray. "To show his superior coordinator nature" is just a superfluous excuse.

But then again that's why they call him Jesus Yamato

[Rob`]

There's too many assumptions necessary. That's why it breaks believability.

Especially when you know that the reason why that scene even exists is because they wanted to one-up Amuro Ray. "To show his superior coordinator nature" is just a superfluous excuse.

But then again that's why they call him Jesus Yamato

all he did was change some numbers, he didn't actually reprogram it

[RED MINOTAUR~!]

Kira is basically a smart kid. He's a Co-ordinator, which makes him even smarter, and this is his profession anyway, we see him minutes before in a classroom doing the same thing on a smaller scale.

He does all that in the Strike for the purpose of creating a better Operating System. Considering he knows the ideal Operating System for himself (he's just been working on it minutes before), all he had to do really was delete the current one and make a new one, which, as a professional + Co-ordinator, shouldn't have taken any longer than it did. I realise Kira did some stupidly absurd things in both series, but he gets far too much flak for comparatively smaller acts. If another Co-Ordinator did the same thing no one would have a problem with it, they'd just say 'Oh, that's because Dearka is smart.'

=|

[Red Zaku]

Kira is basically a smart kid. He's a Co-ordinator, which makes him even smarter, and this is his profession anyway, we see him minutes before in a classroom doing the same thing on a smaller scale.

Of course that didn't translate into pilot smarts... Since we see him attempt to block beam weapons fire with his saber, and catch an anti-ship sword. Thank god for broken physics of Kira would be dead thanks to all the moves people proclaimed were awesome shows of skill that were really just completely boneheaded.

He does all that in the Strike for the purpose of creating a better Operating System.

x.x He changed sub-routines of the existing OS. Which didn't necessarily make it better as Mwu comments thanks to those changes only Kira can use Strike Gundam. It just made it better for Kira to use, not necessarily for anyone else.

Considering he knows the ideal Operating System for himself (he's just been working on it minutes before), all he had to do really was delete the current one and make a new one,

x.x He never deleted the original. He re-programs the existing OS like Athrun, Dearka, Yzak, and even Nicol did and arguably it was much harder for Athrun because he had to alter the programming for Aegis Gundam's MA mode as well.

which, as a professional + Co-ordinator, shouldn't have taken any longer than it did.

Ok, this shows his technical smarts but technical smarts don't necessarily translate into Pilot smarts. Just look at pilots like Duo who didn't know a damn thing about how to fix his MS but was still a damn good pilot.

I realise Kira did some stupidly absurd things in both series, but he gets far too much flak for comparatively smaller acts. If another Co-Ordinator did the same thing no one would have a problem with it, they'd just say 'Oh, that's because Dearka is smart.'

Actually, I'm off the opinion THEY ALL get too much credit for it from a pilots standpoint. Because re-programming an OS or having any of these technical skills doens't translate to good pilot skills and I have to say it's very annoying when feats of re-programming that Kira does are used as justification for why he's a good pilot.

[Tempest]

There are a lot of things in Gundam that are pretty ridiculous, but this definitely tops them. But Kira Yamato was supposed to be some sort of souped-up superhuman, right?

No fuckin` way! What about Heero? He fuckin` jumped out of a 50-100 story building head first without ejecting his parachute in time. He got out with a broken leg and that`s it. Or what about the self-detonation of his Wing Gundam? He survived the explosion AND the 100 ft fall that had the propulsion of the explosion. And he got away with a couple broken ribs!

Amazingly ridiculous. Oh and what about Trowa in the Vayate that Quatre destroyed in the Zero?! :yell

Doesn`t matter, I still love that series. :awesome

There hasn`t been anything that spectacular yet in Gundam 00, that I can recall.

[Wesley]

There's too many assumptions necessary. That's why it breaks believability.

Especially when you know that the reason why that scene even exists is because they wanted to one-up Amuro Ray. "To show his superior coordinator nature" is just a superfluous excuse.

But then again that's why they call him Jesus Yamato

I don't think they started with the Jesus bit until after Destiny, where he was kind of pushing the boundaries of his own limitations as they exist outside of being a very smart person with quick reflexes. That the only way to really beat him was because he was too nice.

Personally I prefer that to all the New-Type bullshit of teleporting around and having "flashes" of insight instilled in you by virtue of an evolutionary and adaptive biological path.

Freedom was a good weapon system, full of operational endurance and effectiveness. Kira was a good pilot that developed with practical experience. Toss in "Seed Mode" for a little extra drama, and there you go.

People might complain about things not being hard for him after gaining Freedom, but alot had changed at that point. Kira was no longer able to simply protect his friends, but he also wasn't sure what exactly he should do. The situation was more complicated and bigger than simple personal survival.

Meanwhile, he's got the most powerful, lbs. for lbs., MS on the planet, with real world advantages over everything else that could have been fielded at the time. It has more powerful sensors. It has far greater mobility and firepower. There's a persistent jamming effect that makes command and control difficult, reducing any chance for an effective and organized resistance. And considering the fact that there's more than one precedent of a cutting edge fighter design completely dominating the battlefield (only thing really stopping the F-22 from ruling the world is the fact that it uses up ammo and fuel), there's absolutely nothing wrong with Freedom just smacking the sh-tar out of everything in range.

Kira never took on and decimiated armies. There was some poetic liscense used, some stock footage, with battle scenes being depicted for a vague sense of scale and purpose, but it's Gundam. It's not like the studio is obligated to build a f-ing diarama, showing that Zaku #127 shot Strike Dagger #81 at 22 paces as the DINN walks while standing atop Hill #43.

Bottom-line, his primary tactic when engaging a battlefield in which he was uncontested, running beamspam, works. It appreicates his suits capabilities and limitations, his character and piloting capabilities, and the limitations of the opposition to do something about him. And at the very least he didn't teabag anyone after blowing their legs off.

And I'm glad I've finally got all of that off my chest. I like Kira. I like Gundam Seed. And I'm simply tired of the assertion that just because Kira had the moral highground, that he had the means to hold it against all opposition, that he was somehow bad or deserved to fail even once. It's ideal, well, f- it, it's a good ideal with practical applications, even if all people won't live up to it all the time.

[Sander RX]

No fuckin` way! What about Heero? He fuckin` jumped out of a 50-100 story building head first without ejecting his parachute in time. He got out with a broken leg and that`s it. Or what about the self-detonation of his Wing Gundam? He survived the explosion AND the 100 ft fall that had the propulsion of the explosion. And he got away with a couple broken ribs!
1)Those are physival feats.
2)Heero hopelessly looses in non-Gundam feats to these guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLaydxMhlw0

[Red Zaku]

No fuckin` way! What about Heero? He fuckin` jumped out of a 50-100 story building head first without ejecting his parachute in time. He got out with a broken leg and that`s it.

50-100? It was like 5, and while he didn't eject his parachute intime to float to saftey the fact he pulled the cord at all took some of the force out of his fall, and he didn't land flat on the ground which would have killed him, instead he slides down a hill dispersing his falling force over a much greater area. His survival was actually pretty realistic.

Or what about the self-detonation of his Wing Gundam? He survived the explosion AND the 100 ft fall that had the propulsion of the explosion. And he got away with a couple broken ribs!

Wing Gundam's head height is 16.3 meters which is only 53 feet. Heero is blown away fromt he explosion and the cockpit hatch for Wing Gundam is in the lower torso. At most he fell 48 or so feet, and he actually got several broken ribs a broken arms, burns and he was in a coma for almost two months... Trowa even says as much to Heero, for the benefit of the reader so we can grasp how much time has passed.

Amazingly ridiculous. Oh and what about Trowa in the Vayate that Quatre destroyed in the Zero?! :yell

Trowa after the Vayate incident disapeared for a good chunk of screen time so we don't know how injured he was but we do know he suffered serious head trauma as he lost his memory.

----------------------

I don't think they started with the Jesus bit until after Destiny, where he was kind of pushing the boundaries of his own limitations as they exist outside of being a very smart person with quick reflexes. That the only way to really beat him was because he was too nice.

>.> He didn't get bounced around by the druggy trio, or Rau cause he was too nice.


Freedom was a good weapon system, full of operational endurance and effectiveness. Kira was a good pilot that developed with practical experience. Toss in "Seed Mode" for a little extra drama, and there you go.

He's not really a good pilot though. He makes bonehead decisions that are obiviously animated for the sake of looking cool, but they're still his calls and he's still a bonehead for going through with them. His tactics become one dimensional Sit and Spam, anyone? And as SEED mode was supposed to be nothing to the physical representation of surpassing ones limits it just means he's trying really really hard, all the more depressing when you consider he needs SEED mode to spam legions of grunts who freeze in the very presense of his machine.

People might complain about things not being hard for him after gaining Freedom, but alot had changed at that point.

Yes, Kira regressed as a character. Instead of taking the logical step in development where Kira accepts that killing is apart of war and he'll have to kill people to protect those he cares about a revelation he'd already come to he regresses back to his old self at the start of the season.

Kira was no longer able to simply protect his friends, but he also wasn't sure what exactly he should do.

That's not even true.... He said that yes but he said it because he had no mobile suit and then Lacus says she'll give him a means to protect everyone, and she helps him steal Freedom.

The situation was more complicated and bigger than simple personal survival.

It was that way before he got Freedom... Freedom simply allowed him to act out the juvenile desires he had at the begining of the season, something Strike with it's limited fire power couldn't do for Kira.

There's a persistent jamming effect that makes command and control difficult, reducing any chance for an effective and organized resistance.

........There isn't a jamming effect. In fact it's sad multiple times FREEDOM ON RADAR... The jamming itself is from Nuclear Jammer's which also double as communications jammers...how that works is beyond me but SEED already had broken physics.

And considering the fact that there's more than one precedent of a cutting edge fighter design completely dominating the battlefield (only thing really stopping the F-22 from ruling the world is the fact that it uses up ammo and fuel), there's absolutely nothing wrong with Freedom just smacking the sh-tar out of everything in range.

>.> Even the F-22 has taken combat losses in simulations.

Kira never took on and decimiated armies.

SEED's ending in which Freedom, Justice and a handful of mobile suits from 3 ships stop two world super powers disagrees. Then again, Freedom delaying the EA forces from overwhelming Orb in SEED, Freedom and AA keeping ZAFT from advancing on Orb in Destiny.... they completely disagree. Hell, Freedom is able to take on ZAFT and the EA by himself in multiple battles in Destiny....

There was some poetic liscense used, some stock footage, with battle scenes being depicted for a vague sense of scale and purpose, but it's Gundam.

So basically you're addmitting Kira took down an army with ease just it shouldn't count because it was poetic liscense and it had stock footage? If that's the case over 3/4 of SEED and Destiny never happened.

It's not like the studio is obligated to build a f-ing diarama, showing that Zaku #127 shot Strike Dagger #81 at 22 paces as the DINN walks while standing atop Hill #43.

No, but the studio should be obligated to use as little as possible in the animation so things like S-Freedom turning into the original Freedom to Full Burst Mode Legend don't happen. But then Fukuda ended up spending a crap ton of his budget on the theme songs for his anime so he had to save somewhere.

Bottom-line, his primary tactic when engaging a battlefield in which he was uncontested, running beamspam, works.

Running? Where the the running? It was spam, spam, spam.... and honestly how can Grunts NOT adapt to something so obvious? Even if you have firggin Ideon, if you only use the same attack, over and over and do nothing different how do you not counter that attack after you've seen it so often?

And I'm glad I've finally got all of that off my chest.

Nevermind that it wasn't accurate in the slightest.

[Wesley]

>.> He didn't get bounced around by the druggy trio, or Rau cause he was too nice.

In Destiny, that was the emphasis. Kira lost to Shinn because Shinn knew he wouldn't go for killing shots. Whether Kira couldn't simply overcome everything in Seed because he was too nice or because the opposition was too rough, I do not know.

He's not really a good pilot though. He makes bonehead decisions that are obiviously animated for the sake of looking cool, but they're still his calls and he's still a bonehead for going through with them. His tactics become one dimensional Sit and Spam, anyone? And as SEED mode was supposed to be nothing to the physical representation of surpassing ones limits it just means he's trying really really hard, all the more depressing when you consider he needs SEED mode to spam legions of grunts who freeze in the very presense of his machine.

Personally I don't care that much about animation or fight choregraphy, but if you do, that's fine. It's an art form as much as anything. I simply take it for granted that a pilot can only do what his machine allows him to do and wiping out lots of enemies easily is more in line with how wars are generally conducted, than say, rolling around on GN-Skates with a switchblade.

Though I suppose I should applaud the effort in trying to make a melee unit look like it might actually work while being entertaining.

Yes, Kira regressed as a character. Instead of taking the logical step in development where Kira accepts that killing is apart of war and he'll have to kill people to protect those he cares about a revelation he'd already come to he regresses back to his old self at the start of the season.

Kira doesn't believe in war though. He doesn't fight wars. If he can avoid killing people to stop fighting, why not do so? The power to hold on to your principals and have them work for you. Sure, Freedom was a weapon of war, but it also allowed him to wipe out mooks while making the effort to avoid killing them outright. I'm sure Kira would appreciate the fact that simply shooting at people probably killed some of them, even if he didn't mean to. That they died from wounds or a spark ignited onboard ordinance. That they were a family running around on the ground he didn't know about when a beam deflected by an enemy nailed them or heaven forbid that he actually missed.

Maybe he was simply too quiet in Destiny, even if he didn't necessarily wallow around.

........There isn't a jamming effect. In fact it's sad multiple times FREEDOM ON RADAR... The jamming itself is from Nuclear Jammer's which also double as communications jammers...how that works is beyond me but SEED already had broken physics.

Freedom's Canceler nullifies the N-Jammers, somehow giving it better sensors/targetting, while not automatically giving an oppenent(s) the same advantage. And Gundam always has broken physics. I mean, at this point, I want to tear out my hair every time I hear the word Quantum. Fine, I get it, big things built on top of very small things moving around relative to eachother, but I still hate the impression that it means that something is actually possible because the word is attached to something, be it brainwaves or ordinance.

It's a pet-peeve of mine, nothing more.

>.> Even the F-22 has taken combat losses in simulations.

An exaggeration, but it still doesn't change the fact that the thing can take on six of the previous generation's ASFs and win more often than not. That's kind of in-line with what Freedom can do, only Freedom is a one of a kind. Why bother training people to prepare for it?

SEED's ending in which Freedom, Justice and a handful of mobile suits from 3 ships stop two world super powers disagrees. Then again, Freedom delaying the EA forces from overwhelming Orb in SEED, Freedom and AA keeping ZAFT from advancing on Orb in Destiny.... they completely disagree. Hell, Freedom is able to take on ZAFT and the EA by himself in multiple battles in Destiny....

Like I said, a diarama.

So basically you're addmitting Kira took down an army with ease just it shouldn't count because it was poetic liscense and it had stock footage? If that's the case over 3/4 of SEED and Destiny never happened.

No, I'm saying you shouldn't assume he took on an army for those reasons. Anyone that thought he was taking on an army was taking things too literally, especially when there were depictions available of Kira simply not walking over everything or having a hard time.

No, but the studio should be obligated to use as little as possible in the animation so things like S-Freedom turning into the original Freedom to Full Burst Mode Legend don't happen. But then Fukuda ended up spending a crap ton of his budget on the theme songs for his anime so he had to save somewhere.

I have an idea. How about for the next Gundam series, they try to make it as cheaply as possible? No named talent, over-seas animation studios. That might be interesting.

Running? Where the the running? It was spam, spam, spam.... and honestly how can Grunts NOT adapt to something so obvious? Even if you have firggin Ideon, if you only use the same attack, over and over and do nothing different how do you not counter that attack after you've seen it so often?

That's how I see how a suit like Freedom is really supposed to work. It has accurate guns. It's fast. Most enemies can't fly. They probably won't see it coming and even if they do, they've already got other things to worry about.

I'm not saying that Freedom could never be overcome with regular stuff, but a limited amount of experience and time didn't make the scenario probable within the series.

Nevermind that it wasn't accurate in the slightest.

An arguement for suspension of disbelief, while trying to make for an enjoyable read concerning a series that I particularly enjoyed at one point in my life. That was my attempt, nothing more, nothing less.

[Red Zaku]

In Destiny, that was the emphasis.

No it wasn't. In Destiny he lost to Shinn because he became far too predictable in a fight and Shinn and Rey were the only two pilots who actually noticed this. The key to beating Freedom in 34 wasn't just that Kira was only aiming for limbs.

Kira lost to Shinn because Shinn knew he wouldn't go for killing shots.

That was just ONE of the reasons he lost. The others were that he wasn't creative, he couldn't prioritize his targets well, and he essentially tried to be Jesus during an episode that didn't support his plot hax.

Whether Kira couldn't simply overcome everything in Seed because he was too nice or because the opposition was too rough, I do not know.

Too rough. He dropped his no kill policy in SEED for his fight with Athrun, and he ended up drawing, and really it's only considered a draw because Athrun didn't kill Kira in that fight and Athrun had to blow up his own MS after it ran out power... Basically the only reason it was a draw was because of factors not actually under Kira's control or even a result of his actions.

Personally I don't care that much about animation or fight choregraphy, but if you do, that's fine. It's an art form as much as anything.

When using it to talk about pilot skill that choregraphy is the only thing you can look to to determine bone head, from brilliant..

I simply take it for granted that a pilot can only do what his machine allows him to do and wiping out lots of enemies easily is more in line with how wars are generally conducted, than say, rolling around on GN-Skates with a switchblade.

One person is on MS is not how wars are Generally conducted at all. x.x The idea is to take out as many as you can. As many as you can is not 1 person wiping out a fleet.

Kira doesn't believe in war though.

Kira doesn't believe in killing people. That's not the same as not believing in war. He hates war, and resents it so he obviously believes in the concept of a war. He just doesn't see the point to it.

He doesn't fight wars.

He does, he even personally acknowledges his participation in wars. He simply RESENTS the idea.

If he can avoid killing people to stop fighting, why not do so?

Because it regresses him as a character and it's completely naive to think he's not killing anyone. In fact you could make an argument his disabling tactics 9/10 lead to a slower more agonizing death then just puting a beam rifle round through the cockpit. Hell, I don't see how when he cleaves off the Bridge of a Battleship with his METEOR he can assume no one died from that act.... He's essentially shutting his eyes and throwing his fingers in the air and shouting at the top of his lungs if I don't aim for the cockpit you'll all come out alive no matter what happens after I leave this area.

The power to hold on to your principals and have them work for you.

His principals are completely juvenile and they're little more then blind ignoranc.e So long as he ignores the potential protential problems with the way he fights nothing bad can happen to the people he's disabled. That's pretty much just childish ignorance...

Sure, Freedom was a weapon of war, but it also allowed him to wipe out mooks while making the effort to avoid killing them outright.

Which likely in reality just lead to their death in a slower more prolonged way, or made them easy pickings for an enemy unit who's playing the scavenger and just annihilating all the defenseless MS he can find.

I'm sure Kira would appreciate the fact that simply shooting at people probably killed some of them, even if he didn't mean to.

He doesn't. In fact he seems blissfully ignorant of that fact acting like by targeting limbs, engines, heads, whatever will always ensure the pilot lives no matter what. As I said it's a serious regression in his character and it's all thanks to Lacus and Freedom.

Freedom's Canceler nullifies the N-Jammers, somehow giving it better sensors/targetting, while not automatically giving an oppenent(s) the same advantage.


The N-Jammer Canceler only works INSIDE Freedom. It doesn't disperse particles anywhere. It's built inside the reactor so N-Jammer particles can't enter the Fission Chamber. It has nothing to do with broadcasting anything.

And Gundam always has broken physics.

SEED's just re-wrote how broken everything is in new and less well-explained ways.

An exaggeration, but it still doesn't change the fact that the thing can take on six of the previous generation's ASFs and win more often than not.

Of course it's winning by using different tactics and not repeating the same sit and spam manuevers that leave it vulnerable to attack.

That's kind of in-line with what Freedom can do, only Freedom is a one of a kind. Why bother training people to prepare for it?

Because if you do you get results like we saw with Freedom vs. Impulse in Phase 34.

No, I'm saying you shouldn't assume he took on an army for those reasons.

There is no assuming he says it repeatedly. He's fighting to protect people, and when he loses Strike Gundam he can't protect anyone anymore because he has no means to do so. Lacus gives him those means and a menas to regress to the Kira at the start of the series.

Anyone that thought he was taking on an army was taking things too literally,

So you're taking things too literally to watch the show and look at the animation and see that he is engaging and destroying full divisions of mobile suits with one unit? How is that being too literal, and not simply watching the show? It's not anyones fault that Freedom was insanely over power in it's own series or that the grunts fighting Freedom seemed to automatically forget hot to dodge, block, or return fire.

especially when there were depictions available of Kira simply not walking over everything or having a hard time.

Yes, against single named pilots who aren't grunts. In this respect Kira sucks, which is why the argument is always made for Kira not showing the kind of pilot prowess that earns him the title as best pilot because his abilities against named characters often fall very flat while his dominance of grunts is what often leads people to proclaim him the godly pilot of CE.

That's how I see how a suit like Freedom is really supposed to work. It has accurate guns. It's fast. Most enemies can't fly. They probably won't see it coming and even if they do, they've already got other things to worry about.

It doesn't matter how you think it's supposed to work, the fact is that's not how Kira uses it and the fact he uses it the dumbest manner possible and it takes a full series later almost to figure this out is just depressing....

I'm not saying that Freedom could never be overcome with regular stuff, but a limited amount of experience and time didn't make the scenario probable within the series.

Freedom lost to an inferior machine in the Impulse, hell if Shinn doesn't get over zealous with one melee attack he never even has to change parts once... The fact is, Kira's horribly reptitive tactics should have made him dog food, and if we place him in any other Gundam series he's pretty much screwed even Leo's returned fire.

An arguement for suspension of disbelief, while trying to make for an enjoyable read concerning a series that I particularly enjoyed at one point in my life. That was my attempt, nothing more, nothing less.

There is only so much you can suspend your disbelief before it just becomes insanely stupid. SEED, and especially Destiny really just not only crossed that line but pissed on it for the lol's with Kira's stunts.

[Graham Aker]

And yet another proof of Setsuna's evolution as a pilot... he deals with Mister's Trans-Am without going Trans-Am himself for a short while. He blocked the Masurao's initial attack and was able to keep track of it and then block Misters following attacks, which looked like it had a lot of force in them even though they were rather crude attacks(it reminded me of Anakin trying to break through Obi-Wan's Soresu with great futility).

And then, with his injury throbbing in pain, managed to put up a GN Field just before Mister got to him.

A great showcase of concentration, reaction time and reflexes.... and ah, willpower.