J-Man // Yondaime

[Lezard Valeth]

This chapter put J-Man on Yondaime level of legendaryness. As I thought J-Man was only missing death to be an untouchable legend like the 4t.

But IMO J-Man has always been far stronger than the Yondaime, altho there is no doubt that the 4th is up there with Sandaime & J-Man in the Konoha Pantheon.

Your thoughts?

[Sephiroth]

It was to show that Naruto surpassed them both, not hard to surpass the J-man though.:lmao

[BGtymin]

Jiraiya believed himself believed that Yondy was stronger, which makes sense. I think right now it stands Minato >= Naruto > Jiraiya. Either way J-man is proud :) he is the best teacher in the manga.

[Sephiroth]

Last one to be surpassed is Tsunade, it's going to be hard for Sakura to surpass healing an entire village at once.

[yrvd86]

It was to show that Naruto surpassed them both, not hard to surpass the J-man though.:lmao

Jiraiyas one of the strongest nin konoha has ever produced. Your logic fails =/
So anyways, yeah I think it was to symbolize that he had surpassed them both or something like that. Although im waiting to see what happens next.

[MrBlonde]

^^Orochimaru was surpased by who?And I wouldn't jump on the Naruto surpassed the Minato/Jiraiya bandwagon until i see what Naruto can really do...until then Jiraiya>=Minato>Naruto.
Kakashi also said Naruto surpased him after Naruto developed FRS,yet we all know Kakashi would have stomped Naruto in a battle back then.

[Sephiroth]

Jiraiyas one of the strongest nin konoha has ever produced. You logic fails =/
So anyways, yeah I think it was to symbolize that he had surpassed them both or something like that. Although im waiting to see what happens next.
Just because he is a Sannin right? They were legendary as a team.

I've never seen Jiraya do anything on his own that was amazing, all his students surpassed him with ease.


^^Orochimaru was surpased by who?And I wouldn't jump on the Naruto surpassed the Minato/Jiraiya bandwagon until i see what Naruto can really do...until then Jiraiya>=Minato>Naruto.
Kakashi also said Naruto surpased him after Naruto developed FRS,yet we all know Kakashi would have stomped Naruto in a battle back then.

If you don't count Sasuke as surpassing Orochimaru, Kabuto will.

[FireSpirit]

There is no way Jiraya was stronger then the 4th. Atleast that is what I believe. If Jiraya was stronger then the fourth, why didn't he face of against the kyuubi? But then again Jiraya is never present in Konoha. But Kakashi himself stated, that the new generation surpasses the old generation. Following this rule the fourth should have been stronger then Jiraya.

[Juracule Mihawk]

Minato would curbstomp his sensei, the way Jiraiya talks about him is more than enough to believe that Minato surpassed Jiraiya at a very young age.

[yrvd86]

^^Orochimaru was surpased by who?And I wouldn't jump on the Naruto surpassed the Minato/Jiraiya bandwagon until i see what Naruto can really do...until then Jiraiya>=Minato>Naruto.
Kakashi also said Naruto surpased him after Naruto developed FRS,yet we all know Kakashi would have stomped Naruto in a battle back then.

First of all I didnt say anyone surpassed anyone if you read more carefully. Second I was talking about what they were trying to symbolize since even the frogs admitted he had surpassed them.

Just because he is a Sannin right? They were legendary as a team.

I've never seen Jiraya do anything on his own that was amazing, all his students surpassed him with ease.


If you don't count Sasuke as surpassing Orochimaru, Kabuto will.

Jiraiyas fight with pain was one of the best fights imo, the jutsu he used were amazing not to mention he used hermit mode which made him that much stronger. Even Itachi saw him as a threat and thats without the other two sannin around. And when you say his students surpassed him with ease you should realize that his students arent ordinary at all. They all were geniuses except Naruto, and even Naruto is amazing now. If you dont feel that he did anything amazing in terms of fighting you can at least agree that he was an amazing teacher.

[MrBlonde]

First of all I didnt say anyone surpassed anyone if you read more carefully. Second I was talking about what they were trying to symbolize since even the frogs admitted he had surpassed them.



I know you didn't,i was talking to the poster above you,hence the 2 "^^".Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Regarding the Jiraiya and Yondaime thing.It is true that Jiraiya talks about him like he's the second coming.But also,i have to point out,Yondaime also held Jiraiya and very high esteem.Jiraiya was also the person Yondaime wanted to fight,so its clear that he considered him an worthy opponent.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/11/


As far as which of the 2 is stronger,its a very hard thing to settle,because we know very little of the Yondaime.He was a 'genius' in the sense that he experimented with jutsu and developed new ones(just like Oro) but does that actually matter in a battle?The Jiraiya we saw in the fight agaist Pain was pretty much what i consider the strongest we've seen so far(we haven't seen anything from Madara and Nagato).

[Jυstin]

Jiraiya passing Minato? No. To me, the levels were:

Naruto | Sasuke
Jiraiya | Orochimaru
Minato| Itachi

Main characters, Sannin teachers, then ultimate benchmarks. Anyway, this chapter only shows that Naruto supposedly surpassed them both(as crazy as that seems, since when would just learning Sennin Moodo make Naruto even Jiraiya's level? I mean, Jiraiya knew Sennin Moodo too.).

[BGtymin]

Just because he is a Sannin right? They were legendary as a team.

I've never seen Jiraya do anything on his own that was amazing, all his students surpassed him with ease.


If you don't count Sasuke as surpassing Orochimaru, Kabuto will.

Lol, wow, such fail.

His fight vs Pain was amazing, if you can't see that your clearly biased.

[MrBlonde]

There's also the point that even if his students surpased him with 'ease'(bleah),the reason they did that is because of Jiraiya himself.Without him Naruto would still be having chakra control problems at this time

[Elite Uchiha]

Jiraiya seems to think Minato is stronger than him.

[Dark Uchiha]

pretty much that yondaime has been brought down to sannin level. Death immortalize him. Lot of potential that was never realized.

[†_Camorra_†]

Where are people geting this BS with Yondaime? :awesome That was just the image Tsunade wacy and seeing on Naruto's back because he is Minato's legacy and J-man's student.Yondaime is still a mystery,nobody know jack shit about his fighting style but we know that he left the forbiden scroll with his jutsus from part1 to Naruto.Uchihatards still dont understand that this chapter killed all J-man vs Itachi debates,Itachi dais by a horible speedblitz :awesome

[Dark Uchiha]

Where are people geting this BS with Yondaime? :awesome That was just the image Tsunade wacy and seeing on Naruto's back because he is Minato's legacy and J-man's student.Yondaime is still a mystery,nobody know jack shit about his fighting style but we know that he left the forbiden scroll with his jutsus from part1 to Naruto.Uchihatards still dont understand that this chapter killed all J-man vs Itachi debates,Itachi dais by a horible speedblitz :awesome

Frogs discussion. They be wise... man

[Lelouch71]

Minato was stronger than Jiraiya and that's pretty obvious especially since he is the main character's benchmark. Jiraiya would definitely give Minato some trouble if they did fight, but Minato would win in the end.

[the_forth]

scary how jiraiya in his 50s is compared to minato in his 20s; and now naruto in his teens is compared to these 2 legends.

naruto may even surpass the 1st?! aswell?!

[Kitsukaru]

Jiraiya passing Minato? No. To me, the levels were:

Naruto | Sasuke
Jiraiya | Orochimaru
Minato| Itachi

Main characters, Sannin teachers, then ultimate benchmarks. Anyway, this chapter only shows that Naruto supposedly surpassed them both(as crazy as that seems, since when would just learning Sennin Moodo make Naruto even Jiraiya's level? I mean, Jiraiya knew Sennin Moodo too.).
Hahaha. Itachi was never close to Minato level!

[Dark Uchiha]

Hahaha. Itachi was never close to Minato level!

how would u prove he wasnt?

[Naruto]

Yondaime surpassed Jiraiya, otherwise Kakashi would use Jiraiya as a measuring point.

But J-Man was probably close.

naruto may even surpass the 1st?! aswell?!

Wake up dude, the first was surpassed by the third when he was still in his teens.

[Kingnaruto]

Yondaime surpassed Jiraiya, otherwise Kakashi would use Jiraiya as a measuring point.

But J-Man was probably close.



Wake up dude, the first was surpassed by the third when he was still in his teens.
Yea and Kakashi knows all jiraiyas jutsu, and fought with him on the battle field?

He compared naruto to the 4th because he is the 4ths legacy, and also he has insight to how the 4th was being his student on the battle field.

[Complete_Ownage]

Yondaime thought Jiraiya was the strongest shinobi of his time. Yonadaime wanted to fight jiraiya. If that doesn't speak leaps and bounds about jiraiya i dunno what does.

Simply Yondaime thought jiraiya was the shit while Jiraiya thought Yondaime surpassed him

Will we ever know? no but it is most likely Yondaime > Jiraiya

[jdbzkh]

how would u prove he wasnt?

Cause no matter how powerful Itachi was he can't teleport and all Minato has to do is throw 3 kunai's in his directing and bam the battles over. Either way to Sasuke Itachi is his ultimate bench mark and to surpass him he's gotta get EMS, while Naruto needs to gain Hirashin to finally surpass his father.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Tbh @ first I thought Yondaime was around Orochimaru' level, but later on, I got carried away by the hype of the boards and placed yondaime above the sannin, on par with the final villains.

But after Pa's remark, its more obvious that He was around the sannin level(that doesn't mean he is equal to them).

Cause no matter how powerful Itachi was he can't teleport and all Minato has to do is throw 3 kunai's in his directing and bam the battles over. Either way to Sasuke Itachi is his ultimate bench mark and to surpass him he's gotta get EMS, while Naruto needs to gain Hirashin to finally surpass his father.

You are aware that Kunais travel with a certain speed right? I mean, they travel with kunai speed so its nothing extra ordinary.
Hirashin is way too overrated.

[-Maya-]

Ooo for the gods Sake MINATO WAS NOT MENTIONED IN THIS CHAPTER

Previous sage users where mentioned the most recent Sage to our Knowledge is Jiraiya

That Image of Jiraiya and Minato was Tsunade remarking on the Likeness that Naruto has acheived

[Dark Uchiha]

Ooo for the gods Sake MINATO WAS NOT MENTIONED IN THIS CHAPTER

Previous sage users where mentioned the most recent Sage to our Knowledge is Jiraiya

That Image of Jiraiya and Minato was Tsunade remarking on the Likeness that Naruto has acheived

so if kakashi says "naruto your getting stronger because of him" and kishi shows a pic of sasuke.

this means kakashi wasnt talking about sasuke?

maya wake the hell up woman :ryoma

[Lelouch71]

scary how jiraiya in his 50s is compared to minato in his 20s; and now naruto in his teens is compared to these 2 legends.

naruto may even surpass the 1st?! aswell?!
Well Sarutobi already surpassed Shodai and it possible that Minato also did too, so it's high likely he will surpassed Shodai if he hasn't already. Shodai wasn't the strongest hokage. Naruto will definitely be a beast when he gets to his father and later Jiraiya's age. Naruto is already at the same level of Jiraiya and arguably Minato at the age of 16.

[Hazuki]

There is no way Jiraya was stronger then the 4th. Atleast that is what I believe. If Jiraya was stronger then the fourth, why didn't he face of against the kyuubi? But then again Jiraya is never present in Konoha. But Kakashi himself stated, that the new generation surpasses the old generation. Following this rule the fourth should have been stronger then Jiraya.

jiraiya wasn't in konoha at that time

and jiraiay never said that yondaime was stronger than him , he said , he was strong , handsome like him , but he died too early..

[Grimmjowsensei]

Ooo for the gods Sake MINATO WAS NOT MENTIONED IN THIS CHAPTER

Previous sage users where mentioned the most recent Sage to our Knowledge is Jiraiya

That Image of Jiraiya and Minato was Tsunade remarking on the Likeness that Naruto has acheived

This reminds me one of earlier conversations.

Where I claimed that Kakashi was actually referring to ninjutsu, when he stated that Naruto has surpassed him, and you were claiming that Kakashi was referring to overall skill.

But that time, Kakashi was actually talking about ninjutsu, he even used that word in his sentence. This time, noone ever mentioned the word 'sage' yet you are claiming that they were specifically referring to 'sages'.

Weird huh ?

[Khazzar]

Minato was stronger then Jiraiya,this manga is about students surpassing their masters.

[Sephiroth]

Lol, wow, such fail.

His fight vs Pain was amazing, if you can't see that your clearly biased.

It wasn't amazing, he got pwned, bad.

Jiraya had to use his ultimate form, just for one body, then was killed by all 6 off panel.

About the surpassing.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/430/20/
Jiraya never mastered Sage mode, and Minato never mastered Rasengan, Naruto has now surpassed them both.

[clador]

Yondaime surpassed Jiraiya, otherwise Kakashi would use Jiraiya as a measuring point.

But J-Man was probably close.



you don't have proof , kakashi never knew that jiraiya was that strong
he even didn't believe that jiraiay fought the 6 in the same time without aknoledge

[clador]

It wasn't amazing, he got pwned, bad.

Jiraya had to use his ultimate form, just for one body, then was killed by all 6 off panel.

About the surpassing.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/430/20/
Jiraya never mastered Sage mode, and Minato never mastered Rasengan, Naruto has now surpassed them both.

jiraiya could have beat one body as easely with his rasengan
but it's just he use it against pain absorb

naruto wouldn't be abble to killed pain if he would have use hi rasengan againt pain absorb

[aceb]

Didn't put them on same level. Just showed Naruto has surpassed them both or whatever. J-Man was in no way same level of Yondaime.

[wiggely]

there was a reason minato became the 4th and not j-man. because he was stronger

[The Luiz]

My thought is that we didn't get Yondaime action enough to judge.

[Lezard Valeth]

there was a reason minato became the 4th and not j-man. because he was stronger

actually no

it is stated in the manga that J-Man had left the village and Sarutobi looked everywhere for J-Man, the only reason he could search him was to make him Hokage

[haydenKyuubi]

Naruto surpassed everyone in power, not as a ninja. Is a bit too much to think Naruto's better ninja than Jiraya or Yondaime... Time and experience it's all he needs to get that.


PS: Sometimes power can fuck experience, that's why, in Naruto case, Kishi says explicitly the word "surpassed".

[A.E.G.I.S]

actually no

it is stated in the manga that J-Man had left the village and Sarutobi looked everywhere for J-Man, the only reason he could search him was to make him Hokage

Tsunade said Sarutobi wanted to make him the Fifth, not the Fourth ...

[Lezard Valeth]

Tsunade said Sarutobi wanted to make him the Fifth, not the Fourth ...

but J-Man was unavailable anyway, so we can not conclude Minato is better
maybe J-Man would have een picked instead if he was available

[WraithX959]

scary how jiraiya in his 50s is compared to minato in his 20s; and now naruto in his teens is compared to these 2 legends.

naruto may even surpass the 1st?! aswell?!

He shall my friend, he shall. And by doing so, Naruto will have surpassed all the previous Hoakges.

[Mo Uzumaki]

Jiraiya believed himself believed that Yondy was stronger, which makes sense. I think right now it stands Minato >= Naruto > Jiraiya. Either way J-man is proud :) he is the best teacher in the manga.

Yeah, exactly!

[Dark Uchiha]

but J-Man was unavailable anyway, so we can not conclude Minato is better
maybe J-Man would have een picked instead if he was available

the ones in contention for the 4th hokage spot was oro and minato.

oro left/caught when minato was chosen as the 4th.

So its only reasonable to believe that j-man was being looked for to replace sandaime after yondaime died.

[eHav]

There is no way Jiraya was stronger then the 4th. Atleast that is what I believe. If Jiraya was stronger then the fourth, why didn't he face of against the kyuubi? But then again Jiraya is never present in Konoha. But Kakashi himself stated, that the new generation surpasses the old generation. Following this rule the fourth should have been stronger then Jiraya.

and kakashi should have been stronger than yondaime.. :oh

[JPongo]

J-man couldn't even fully control Gamabunta, Minato did. And probably Naruto as well.

[JPongo]

the ones in contention for the 4th hokage spot was oro and minato.

oro left/caught when minato was chosen as the 4th.

So its only reasonable to believe that j-man was being looked for to replace sandaime after yondaime died.

Oro was an obviously biased choice to begin with and his evil ways was just one of the reasons he wasn't selected.

imo the sannin do not stack up to Minato.

[Noble Avenger]

Jiraiya passing Minato? No. To me, the levels were:

Naruto | Sasuke
Jiraiya | Orochimaru
Minato| Itachi
Nagato | Madara

Main characters, Sannin teachers, then ultimate benchmarks. Anyway, this chapter only shows that Naruto supposedly surpassed them both(as crazy as that seems, since when would just learning Sennin Moodo make Naruto even Jiraiya's level? I mean, Jiraiya knew Sennin Moodo too.).Yep, though you forgot about Akatsuki's resident gods of Shinobi. Surpassing Sanin Teachers equates to surpassing everyone EXCEPT the geniuses in your family (Itachi/Yondaime) and 2 most powerful bloodline users ever (Nagato/Madara).

[Fly Master 3000]

itachi > oro = minato > jiraya

end of story.

[Dark Uchiha]

Oro was an obviously biased choice to begin with and his evil ways was just one of the reasons he wasn't selected.

imo the sannin do not stack up to Minato.

minato felt jiraiya was stronger than him
jiraiya felt minato was stronger than him

they both jizzed to each other.

frogs felt they were around the same level.

[Gspot]

naruto may even surpass the 1st?! aswell?!

"Surpassing Shodai" is not a real or possible concept. Shodai Hashirama-sama reigns over the Narutoverse, and even forces Kishi to shape the manga the way Shodai-sama sees fit.:hurr

I think Yondaime had to be at least a little stronger than Jiraiya.

[UltimateDeadpool]

But Kakashi himself stated, that the new generation surpasses the old generation. Following this rule the fourth should have been stronger then Jiraya.

Then by what you think he meant, Kakashi should had beaten him.

What Kakashi meant was that the powerful grow old while the young grow powerful.

Jiraiya seems to think Minato is stronger than him.

But Minato thinks Jiraiya's stronger than himself. They were each others' biggest fanboys, lol.

Naruto surpassed everyone in power, not as a ninja. Is a bit too much to think Naruto's better ninja than Jiraya or Yondaime... Time and experience it's all he needs to get that.

Agreed.

itachi > oro = minato > jiraya

end of story.

Your book is missing a couple pages.

the ones in contention for the 4th hokage spot was oro and minato.

oro left/caught when minato was chosen as the 4th.

So its only reasonable to believe that j-man was being looked for to replace sandaime after yondaime died.

Tsunade said that Hiruzen always intended for Jiraiya to succeed him, but Jiraiya never wanted the position. When he wasn't fighting on behalf of Konoha, he was traveling the world, writing his books, spying on women, and being a pimp.

[Roach]

Anko disagrees :edu
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/94/08/

[Elite Uchiha]

When did minato ever believe Jiraiya was stronger than him. Jiraiya praised Minato just like Tsunade, Anko, Kakashi, and even Sarutobi did.

[Nic]

The gap in power is definitely a lot closer than originally thought but Minato would still be slightly stronger. Even though the DB points that Jiraiya was humble his words combined with Kakashi's puts Minato just above Jiraiya. However, Jiraiya was definitely a beast.

[Ico]

I believe that Minato is stronger than Jiraiya, and I think Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya and is very close to surpassing Minato. And by no means do I mean to disrespect Jiraiya for he is one of my top 3 favorite characters and is a legendary beast of a powerhouse, I just believe that the new generations surpass the old, in most cases. I mean do you guys really think Kakashi surpassed the 4th :LOS

[UltimateDeadpool]

When did minato ever believe Jiraiya was stronger than him. Jiraiya praised Minato just like Tsunade, Anko, Kakashi, and even Sarutobi did.

In Jiraiya's flashback, where we first saw Kushina, Minato said that he thinks Jiraiya is the greatest ninja and wanted his son to be just like him... eve technically named Naruto after Jiraiya, since "Naruto" was used as an alias in his biography.

Anko disagrees :edu
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/94/08/

Jiraiya's presence was kind of a secret, and Kakashi also said that Jiraiya was the only one that could stop Orochimaru.

[Super Mike]

J-man and Minato are on a similar level, however I seem to recall him saying yondaime was stronger than he is.

[Kai]

There is absolutely nothing the manga has said that would place Jiraiya over a top tier legendary shinobi like Yondaime.

Jiraiya seems to believe Minato is the greatest genius he's ever met, an individual that seemed to excel anything that crossed his path. Minato makes one comment of Jiraiya being the "finest" shinobi to his knowledge, which doesn't mean Jiraiya is stronger, faster, nor more intelligent. It could possibly be a comment on Jiraiya's style and nature of doing things that he finds so fascinating.

But since Jiraiya's honorifics are just more hardcore, Minato's got to be above him with little question.

Jiraiya's presence was kind of a secret, and Kakashi also said that Jiraiya was the only one that could stop Orochimaru.
Minato's presence was non-existent, so that just displays Anko waning for Yondaime's availability so he could handle the situation(Orochimaru) soundly.

About Kakashi's comment: I'm declaring you've either been misled, you've misinterpreted, or both, but ultimately you're just wrong.

[Dark Uchiha]

Tsunade said that Hiruzen always intended for Jiraiya to succeed him, but Jiraiya never wanted the position. When he wasn't fighting on behalf of Konoha, he was traveling the world, writing his books, spying on women, and being a pimp.

im not sure what your trying to imply in a reply to my quote.

But the way the convo was flowing was that jiraiya was meant to be the fifth hokage

[HumanWine]

When Jiraiya gains the ability to fight on his own ie. with out Toad Masters and giant creatures to back him up, he'll be on Yodaime's level.............oh wait....Jiraiya is dedd....

Oh well :zaru

[UltimateDeadpool]

When Jiraiya gains the ability to fight on his own ie. with out Toad Masters and giant creatures to back him up, he'll be on Yodaime's level.............oh wait....Jiraiya is dedd....

Oh well :zaru

Minato could summon toads too, and even road Gamabunta into battle against Kyuubi.

[HappyHalloween]

Yondaime, 90% fan-fiction 10% canon.

This feels like the Itachi thread, that we battled for over 20 odd pages.

Victory for Jiraiya!

[HumanWine]

Minato could summon toads too, and even road Gamabunta into battle against Kyuubi.

Yondaime isnt known in the ninja world for fighting with Toads on his side. Just a knife. :zaru

[PushMeAway]

i beg to disagree in the notion that Jman is stronger than Minato. Im a big Jman fan but its pretty logical to admit that Minato is stronger than his sensei, as the words itself came from the Jman himself, telling that Minato is the strongest Hokage for him (probably its a personal opinion, but we'll soon find it out in the next next future chapters if ever there will be a Yondaime Gaiden.

Did Naruto already surpassed the two legendary nins? The Jman, we'll probably, in many aspects. but with Minato, well its too early to tell. the next chapters will hopefully give us a few hints.