So I've got down to watching Seed Destiny... [Archive]

RED MINOTAUR~!

12-04-2008, 08:26 PM

The Specials, mind you (I'm roughly halfway through them now), but it's still Destiny.

Firstly, these specials seem to put everything in a better light, I've been told that the series was very bad, and as I watched the first 10 or so episodes I thought 'yeah, this seems quite poor', and didn't watch anymore until now, and it's got my attention and keeping me watching, which has to at least be a good thing.

Secondly, does anyone agree that Shinn is a completely nasty vile cuntish piece of work? How anyone can possibly like him (and I haven't seen anyone on this forum who likes him yet) is beyond me. He constantly bullies Cagalli, a weak young lady, over something she had nothing to do with. He's always acting like an asshole to Athrun, a military hero of the Gundam and Cosmic Era world who is a much higher rank and even on the same force as him. Even when he falls in love with Four Murasame Stella and she is flattening a capital city with the Destroy, as soon as he sees her piloting he suddenly wants to stop doing anything and even fights Kira in the Freedom (who is trying to stop her). Ok, you have a lame crush on her, but that doesn't change the fact that she is killing thousands of people, you dick-nippled bitch. Do the right thing and stop her, not those trying to.

Even when he's discharged from jail, as he's explaining how 'cool' he thinks he is to Athrun there's this horrid cocky smile on his face as if to say 'I'm the coolest person ever now that I'm an ex-convict, I bet you've never done anything cooler'. How anyone can see him at all as the main character is beyond me, the only slight claim to that is that it's his mobile suit that the series is named after. You could name the series 'Gundam Seed: "Fodder Gouf Ignited"' and make the same claim that Heine is the main character :edu The anime (the Specials, at least) follows Athrun's path, and Kira is introduced relatively early on into the series, and both of them have much stronger claims to being the central character.

:zaru Seriously, is this guy just a total fag or what? Anyone else despise him as much as I do?

NewtypeS3

12-05-2008, 12:09 AM

Firstly, these specials seem to put everything in a better light, I've been told that the series was very bad, and as I watched the first 10 or so episodes I thought 'yeah, this seems quite poor', and didn't watch anymore until now, and it's got my attention and keeping me watching, which has to at least be a good thing.
Actually, if you ask me, Destiny doesn't really get bad until the later episodes in the 30s - around 36, 37, 38 or 39, depending on who you ask. And then, of course, it depends on if the person's a Shin fan or a Kira fan - because the latter will say the series gets good around then, despite being the technical minority of the fanbase.

Secondly, does anyone agree that Shinn is a completely nasty vile cuntish piece of work?
I don't.

How anyone can possibly like him (and I haven't seen anyone on this forum who likes him yet) is beyond me.
And there's more than just me who like him, by the way. We're just far, far less vocal on the matter because we realize that, in spite of the fact that the head writer screwed him over in the finale by taking away what made him a character, he's still one of the best-written and most human characters in the Cosmic Era subsection of the franchise.

He constantly bullies Cagalli, a weak young lady,
...and there's problem 1.
Cagali's not a 'weak young lady,' nor does Shin constantly bully her. Shin voices his opinion on Orb, one he has a right to, in front of Cagali because he's sick of being lectured about 'pacifism' from a country who hasn't been pacifistic at all in their history (providing aid to only one half of the war and ignoring the other half? That ain't neutral. Then ignoring the half you were just aiding in order to aid the ones you were initially ignoring? That's still not neutral.). And Shin does this a grand total of once in both the series and the movie iteration.

Furthermore, if you really do believe Cagali is a 'weak young lady,' how do you explain her characterization throughout Seed? There, Cagali was a tomboy who was more likely to hit Shin and then bitch right back at him rather than break down and cry. When her friends from Moregonrate died, she didn't break down and cry like a baby - Cagali screamed "Murderers!" and then fought even harder in that final battle at Jachin Due.

over something she had nothing to do with.
She's the daughter of the leader of the country at the time and had intimate knowledge of what was going on - and her voice may have been able to sway her father.
She currently runs the country. This means she's the perfect person to complain to about Orb's diplomatic policy.

American President Bush isn't actually responsible for the current economy, the fault for that stretches back into the Regan era - over 20 years ago. But it doesn't stop people from blaming him for the current problems of the nation, now does it?

He's always acting like an asshole to Athrun, a military hero of the Gundam and Cosmic Era world who is a much higher rank and even on the same force as him.
Actually, Shin made it pretty clear that he'll respect you once you've earned his respect. What has Athrun actually done in Destiny to earn that? Sure, he fights well in a ZAKU, but the minute he shows up in a ZAFT uniform, he hems and haws about what he's trying to do - avoiding combat with Kira to the point that he loses his custom mobile suit made just for him.
Furthermore, Athrun merely whacks Shin around for doing things that everyone else praises him for. Freeing people who are no more than slaves? Athrun whacks him upside the head and acts as if Shin had stepped on them.

Even when he falls in love with Four Murasame Stella
Actually, he's not in love with Stella. He considers her similar to his little sister, who he lost two years ago in the first battle of Orb - along with the rest of his family right in front of his eyes. Really, it's a common psychological thing to become attached to someone who reminds you of someone you lost.

and she is flattening a capital city with the Destroy, as soon as he sees her piloting he suddenly wants to stop doing anything and even fights Kira in the Freedom (who is trying to stop her).
Actually, Shin was getting Stella to stop completely - without major violence. Kira, on the other hand, stumbled into a massive military operation and began firing at random... which actually caused more damage than you'd think.
Also, Stella was actually stopping completely. Then Kira waltzes in, and kills Stella.

Ok, you have a lame crush on her, but that doesn't change the fact that she is killing thousands of people, you dick-nippled bitch. Do the right thing and stop her, not those trying to.
Actually, Shin was trying to do the right thing. Stella literally didn't know what she was doing - scared out of her mind and reacting entirely out of fear.
And, ironically, he was stopping her - and doing a far better job than Kira was.

Even when he's discharged from jail, as he's explaining how 'cool' he thinks he is to Athrun there's this horrid cocky smile on his face as if to say 'I'm the coolest person ever now that I'm an ex-convict, I bet you've never done anything cooler'.
...jailed after the Stella event in Berlin? Or are you just jumping around in your rambling now?
Because he was brought out of jail (and the death sentence) because ZAFT needed him to deal with Stella. Furthermore, I don't know what show you've been watching, but Shin never gave the 'I'm awesome' look - that seems to be you putting words in Shin's mouth and being horrible at reading expressions in general. Shin has a smirk for literally 2 seconds, in which he is actually justified in having. Athrun, the man who's been beating him upside the head with his own morals, is wrong for once. Shin outright explains it by saying "your ideal of justice isn't the only one out there."

So really, what Destiny are you watching?
Because it sure as hell isn't the TV or movie forms.

How anyone can see him at all as the main character is beyond me,
Bandai, Sunrise, Director Fukuda and well over half of the Japanese fanbase see him as the main character. And when Bandai, Sunrise and the director all agree, the fans agreeing as well is only a bonus.
Go figure, huh?

the only slight claim to that is that it's his mobile suit that the series is named after.
Shin is the first person shown to us, as the first thing we see in Destiny is the death of his family.
Shin pilots the first new Gundam shown to us in the series, the one that made all the production materials and gets the central focus in the opening sequences.
ZAFT is the side we start out on, not the EA or Orb. Shin works for ZAFT as a soldier.
The official materials from Gundam Seed Destiny, released by Bandai and Sunrise, call Shin Asuka the main character of Destiny - even the materials released after the series ended.

Go figure - he has more than a single claim.

You could name the series 'Gundam Seed: "Fodder Gouf Ignited"' and make the same claim that Heine is the main character :edu
Well, Heine only showed up for about, what, 3 episodes? And he was voiced by TM Revolution - his death was as guaranteed as Miguel's was in Seed. If you're going to try and make an argument to change the focus, you might want to troll less and think more.

The anime (the Specials, at least) follows Athrun's path,
The focus was changed to Athrun so the movies would be more balanced between sides. This was done by the script writers who had to fix the trainwreck of the TV series - and it's a choice that changes the focus but not the main character.

and Kira is introduced relatively early on into the series,
Main characters don't show up in the 13th episode for their first appearance.

and both of them have much stronger claims to being the central character.
Actually, neither do.
Because word-of-God outright states Shin is.

:zaru Seriously, is this guy just a total fag or what? Anyone else despise him as much as I do?
The fact that I'm the only one replying in this topic so far kinda says that few seem to agree with you - especially with your blatant trolling.

Biolink

12-05-2008, 04:02 AM

The only thing I have to say is that Athrun definitely deserved whatever he had coming to him. It was incredibly annoying that Shin was one of the few characters that wasn't mesmerized just by Athrun's label as a hero. You can respect somebody to an extent, but why be mesmerized over someone that you didn't know personally? Meyrin and Lunamaria immediately come to mind, in the latter case Lunamaria not really letting up her crush over Athrun until it seemed he was dead.

Athrun was the one if anybody that was acting like a bitch IMO(Pardon my Language). For some reason I couldn't shake the feeling that he was acting INCREDIBLY entitled, and up until a certain point, he hadn't really done anything in battle or Leadership wise to cement himself as worthy as a hero of Legend. I need not even mention his Wishy-Washyness when he outright refuses to fight back against Kira.

Of course Athrun just generally acting suspicious and paranoid in general, over circumstantial evidence about Dullindal wouldn't help to convince Shin that Athrun was worthy of respect or anything.And I really stress that, Athrun's paranoia was so circumstantial that you could basically say it was thing's that he was making up in his mind, as he was going along, just to label Dullindal as somebody with hidden agendas. True or False people tend to believe what they want to believe, and what Athrun wanted to believe was that Dullindal was secretly up to something

"OMG Dullindal had stronger Mobile Suits built(Destiny and Legend), he must be getting ready to go to war!"

Athrun slapping Shin after he freed all of the labor workers who were working there force, pretty much permanently cemented Athrun as one of Destiny's big morons.

Wesley

12-05-2008, 04:55 AM

Actually, if you ask me, Destiny doesn't really get bad until the later episodes in the 30s - around 36, 37, 38 or 39, depending on who you ask. And then, of course, it depends on if the person's a Shin fan or a Kira fan - because the latter will say the series gets good around then, despite being the technical minority of the fanbase.

I don't.

I don't really think it's like that. Whether fans of a certain colour thought it was good or bad after that point. Really, I don't see how anyone could have been satisfied with those last episodes.

I think the main problem was that Gil as the final boss was kind of...unconvincing. It seemed like they made him into a bad guy who kills and threatens people just to provide an excuse to take him down.

If he hadn't pilfered and pulled superweapons out of his ass, I don't think Kira and company would have done anything about him. He was basically set up as a fall guy and it left a bad taste in my mouth.

And there's more than just me who like him, by the way. We're just far, far less vocal on the matter because we realize that, in spite of the fact that the head writer screwed him over in the finale by taking away what made him a character, he's still one of the best-written and most human characters in the Cosmic Era subsection of the franchise.

Being a loud, mouthy, jerk, who's never wrong about anything doesn't make him more human. It just makes him immature.

...and there's problem 1.
Cagali's not a 'weak young lady,' nor does Shin constantly bully her. Shin voices his opinion on Orb, one he has a right to, in front of Cagali because he's sick of being lectured about 'pacifism' from a country who hasn't been pacifistic at all in their history (providing aid to only one half of the war and ignoring the other half? That ain't neutral. Then ignoring the half you were just aiding in order to aid the ones you were initially ignoring? That's still not neutral.). And Shin does this a grand total of once in both the series and the movie iteration.

Cagalli's character was thrown under the bus in Destiny. All so that Shinn could waltz around unchecked. She should have gotten pissed off at him, but kept it to herself and ignored him. Just like she shouldn't have been bullied into marrying some nobody.

As far as I'm concerned, Destiny doesn't exist because it made Cagalli needlessly weak.

Actually, Shin made it pretty clear that he'll respect you once you've earned his respect. What has Athrun actually done in Destiny to earn that? Sure, he fights well in a ZAKU, but the minute he shows up in a ZAFT uniform, he hems and haws about what he's trying to do - avoiding combat with Kira to the point that he loses his custom mobile suit made just for him.
Furthermore, Athrun merely whacks Shin around for doing things that everyone else praises him for. Freeing people who are no more than slaves? Athrun whacks him upside the head and acts as if Shin had stepped on them.

That's all Cagalli's fault again. Besides that, he wasn't avoiding combat with Kira. He confronted him and got owned because of his feelings for Cagalli and the fact they were fighting Orb at the time.

And Shinn was acting like he was a hero. He's not a hero. He was supposed to stick to the mission and not rampage through an enemy base like a self-righteous idiot.

Actually, Shin was getting Stella to stop completely - without major violence. Kira, on the other hand, stumbled into a massive military operation and began firing at random... which actually caused more damage than you'd think.
Also, Stella was actually stopping completely. Then Kira waltzes in, and kills Stella.

Europe is being wiped off the map and Archangel just stumbles into it? They were there for a very obvious reason, that being to literally save Europe. A very good reason and pretty much the only time they made an aggressive move in the series that didn't involve Orb (and the only reason why they acted there was because Cagalli, again, sucked so much).

And it's not Kira's fault Stella was a headcase who freaked out at the mere sight of him, even after Shinn managed to calm her down.

Actually, Shin was trying to do the right thing. Stella literally didn't know what she was doing - scared out of her mind and reacting entirely out of fear.
And, ironically, he was stopping her - and doing a far better job than Kira was.

And what if he hadn't gotten through to her? Hm, that sounds like a good premise for a fanfic. What if Shinn is forced to kill Stella? Good idea...

...jailed after the Stella event in Berlin? Or are you just jumping around in your rambling now?
Because he was brought out of jail (and the death sentence) because ZAFT needed him to deal with Stella. Furthermore, I don't know what show you've been watching, but Shin never gave the 'I'm awesome' look - that seems to be you putting words in Shin's mouth and being horrible at reading expressions in general. Shin has a smirk for literally 2 seconds, in which he is actually justified in having. Athrun, the man who's been beating him upside the head with his own morals, is wrong for once. Shin outright explains it by saying "your ideal of justice isn't the only one out there."

Athrun doesn't moralise. He disciplines. Something Shinn lacked.

You seem to think that Shinn actually argued with people, when he'd just yell at and attack them with sarcasm dripping from his mouth.

Well, Heine only showed up for about, what, 3 episodes? And he was voiced by TM Revolution - his death was as guaranteed as Miguel's was in Seed. If you're going to try and make an argument to change the focus, you might want to troll less and think more.

I hate it when people call people trolls.

Red Zaku

12-05-2008, 09:05 AM

Being a loud, mouthy, jerk, who's never wrong about anything doesn't make him more human. It just makes him immature.

He wasn't being a loud mouth jerk. He was quite for the most of the serie.s In fact 99% of the time the people who call him a loud mouth Jerk cite a total of three instances most often being mean to Cagalli and making her cry. Yet he made a valid point about Orb and how is had no right to talk down to anyone. Orb literally promised one thing while doing another.

All so that Shinn could waltz around unchecked.

Walk around un-checked? She was with him a grand total of what? Five episodes. How she could have kept him inline a whole series is beyond me. Though honestly how was Shinn un-checked? Athrun punches Shinn in the face for rescueing innocent people who the EA rounded up and put into a forced labor camp.

She should have gotten pissed off at him, but kept it to herself and ignored him.

She didn't keep to herself, she got slightly angry, then misty eyed and started crying. That's not really keeping it to yourself.

Just like she shouldn't have been bullied into marrying some nobody.

She wasn't bullied she was litterally talked into by Yuna who was filling her head with crap every second he was with her. The worst part? Against her character in SEED she went along with it.

That's all Cagalli's fault again. Besides that, he wasn't avoiding combat with Kira. He confronted him and got owned because of his feelings for Cagalli and the fact they were fighting Orb at the time.

Athrun wasn't fighting his best or even close to competently. He fired perhaps a grand total of three shots and they were just to keep Kira busy so he couldn't stick his nose any further into a fight that had nothing to do with him. Kira then said Cagalli was crying, why this stops Athrun, who at this point should say something to the affect of, " That doesn't give you the right to stick you nose into a fight that's not your buisness," is beyond me.

And Shinn was acting like he was a hero. He's not a hero. He was supposed to stick to the mission and not rampage through an enemy base like a self-righteous idiot.

>.> Isn't that the same thing people Praise Kira for? And Athrun no less? Funny how Shinn get's condemned for helping people but Kira and Athrun get praised for doing stupid things repeatedly.

And it's not Kira's fault Stella was a headcase who freaked out at the mere sight of him,

How was it not Kira's fault when he nearly killed her, appeared to have killed Neo, and had been attacking Stella for the entire episode. How exactly is that not going to give Stella a reason to fear the Freedom and act rashly when it's around? >.>

And what if he hadn't gotten through to her?

Dumb question because HE DID. It's sort of pointless to talk about maybe's that have no affect on the story. Shinn's words did stop her, and Kira screwed up by attacking Stella not once but twice.

Athrun doesn't moralise.

Yes he does. x.x He does this repeatedly throughout Destiny and even in SEED.

You seem to think that Shinn actually argued with people, when he'd just yell at and attack them with sarcasm dripping from his mouth.

That's what most arguing is. Yelling back and forth with a series of sarcastic remarks inserted randomly based on the most recent counter from the other party.

I hate it when people call people trolls.

well, in this case it fits. Kinda like it fits when we talk about your dicussions on the episode topics for 00.

kakoishii

12-06-2008, 01:01 AM

Well gee, first were talking about seed destiny, then Shin, now trolling? Huh, well I'm gonna put this back in reverse a little. My opinion of destiny? I'm still trying to get rid of the dvd volumes I have on my shelf because that show was more than disappointing, the ending left me completely dissatisfied.

I'll join the camp that didn't like Shin, but I also hate how Athrun, Kira, and Cagali's characters got thrown under the bus to make us think that Shin is a great main character. My main issue with Shin was the fact that the guy had serious issues. He's obviously been emotionally stunted from watching his family get murdered and because of that it makes him an incredibly annoying character to watch. The worst part was he could never think for himself, he let Durandal and Ray pull his strings and work him like a puppet to each of their own ends, he's rash and he never thinks things through before acting. And the worst part? At the end of the series when everything is revealed that Durandal is a nut job, what does Shin learn? Absolutely NOTHING! The most frustrating thing of all is he learned nothing over the course of 51 episodes and was a whiny bitch to the very end.

Athrun's at fault for not even knowing what he wanted to do the whole time and effectively not being aggressive enough when he really needed to be. Athrun went seed effectively one time over the course of the whole series, that's a disappointment. Kira was just odd showing up half the time to make a difference but not really even knowing if he was or not. Cagali was the worse offender. We all saw her kick ass in Seed, but in destiny it's like she lost her balls. She went from kick ass to a cry baby who'd sit in her cockpit of her strike rouge balling her eyes out for people to be "peaceful" and "get along" rather than fighting back and taking names. Her character was torn to shreds. I dunno what they were thinking with destiny but I guess I'll join the camp of people who are claiming this series never happened.

Wesley

12-06-2008, 02:13 AM

Red Zaku

12-06-2008, 03:07 AM

but I also hate how Athrun, Kira, and Cagali's characters got thrown under the bus to make us think that Shin is a great main character.

How did Kira, or Athrun get thrown under the bus to make Shinn a better character? Neither of them actually made Shinn look better as a character. Kira made Shinn look great as a pilot, and Athrun, well he made Shinn appear to be the only person who actually knew how to act like a SOLDIER in all of SEED. Neither of those really boosts his character. Neither does Cagalli's nerfing at the hands of Morosawa. They were writtne poorly because Morosawa admitted she couldn't write the old characters with the new it was too hard for her.

My main issue with Shin was the fact that the guy had serious issues. He's obviously been emotionally stunted from watching his family get murdered and because of that it makes him an incredibly annoying character to watch.

How was he emotionally stunted? For the majority of the series he acted like a normal teenager. Only his motivations for fighting and his views on the Orb Union were actually motivated by what happened to his family, neither of which makes him developmentally stunted as you claim.

The worst part was he could never think for himself,

Shinn concluded what Kira was doing was wrong for himself. Shinn decided to fight for Durandal on his own, he simply needed reassurance from Rey. Shinn knew he had to shoot Athrun and Meyrin down on his own, he was just conflicted over it because Athrun, and Meyrin were friends. But Shinn's actions are pretty much always his own choices.

he let Durandal and Ray pull his strings and work him like a puppet to each of their own ends,

And what are those? Honestly you say this provide no examples and this makes it so? >.> Hating his character is all well and good but when you list reason's they're supposed ot be supported in something. Preferably the show.

he's rash and he never thinks things through before acting.

>.> So Kira thinks things through? He ran into the middle of a fight between the EA allied with Orb against ZAFT and he didn't get attacking ZAFT would piss them off, but that's excusable? It's also not like that is a new development in SEED Destiny either. The entire TSA in SEED did the same thing, fought pointless battle after battle with no clear goal or means to end the war. They just kinda lucked out that Jachin Due exhausted the fighting forces for both sides.

And the worst part? At the end of the series when everything is revealed that Durandal is a nut job, what does Shin learn?

Durandal wasn't a nut job. Hell, Fukuda said it himself in his post Destiny Interview. Kira and Lacus are the ones who strayed from the Path of Justice. Here in an expert from my post on Mechatalk Forums.

- Shinn seems to have realized that he's wrong during the final confrontation against Athrun, have you ever thought of the possibility that he may go to Kira's side?

Fukuda : I have absolutely no such intention right from the start, because I always want to create a story where in the end Shinn loses everything except Lunamaria. I hope people don't misunderstand it, I don't think Shinn is incorrect (unjust? wrong?) at all. What Shinn and Dullindal have done are all for the good of the world, on the other hand Kira's side is the one which has somewhat deviated from the path of justice.

mcred23 wrote:
While I know there is probably some degree of truth to a lot of this, I can't help but be reminded of the many 'quotes' attributed to Yoshiyuki Tomino I've seen over the years that are totally BS, and I wouldn't be suprised if at least one or two of Fukuda's turned out to be as well. It would probably be best for people to post the interviews that the quotes or comments they're interested in come from (Or links to them, to avoid a bunch of overly long posts), if only to confirm that Fukuda (Or whomever, if it's someone else from the production staff) actually said them at some point...

Here these are a few links which seem to confirm the text I posted already. Including a link to buy the back issue of animage specifically inquestion.

http://www.animecornerstore.com/animage.html
http://blog.yam.com/ekliptiko/archives/706118.html
http://www.celestialbeing.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=190804&st=0&p=206864&#entry206864

The most frustrating thing of all is he learned nothing over the course of 51 episodes and was a whiny bitch to the very end.

51 episodes? What? It's more like 50 flat with the 51rst being 50 with more footaged tagged on to make Terminal's win look like less hax then it initially did plus a Darth Lacus scene where it looks like she's Darth Sidious exited his shuttle on the Death Star II.

---------------------------------------
You accused him being a troll,

If the shoe fits....

which is simply rude.

Then perhaps he should go about posting in a manner that makes it seem less like a post intended solely to offend or annoy other users? You know by using more facts, and not just kinda making sutff up as he goes along or flaming people in his next reply cause he doesn't like what they said. You've done this too so you should know better as well. You don't get called a Troll without conducting yourself in manner that makes the term warrented in it's use.

Even after making an arguement against what he said, rather than simply waiting for a response, you called him a troll.

Trolling by definition is a post with the intent of offending or annoying other users. Why would you wait for a response when the very obvious answer is that he won't admit to trolling because in most cases Trolling is a punishable offense on messageboards. Also considering his very next post was a flame at me who wasn't even debating his points but yours, well how does that not look like trolling?

If you find fault with his logic, fine, tell him that, but don't be a douchebag about it.

Don't be so naive and we won't have a problem. But then you also conduct yourself in a similar manner so is it any surprise you're trying to defend him? No, not really. Also, way to prove you, yourself, aren't a troll by flaming Newtype. Just brilliant. >.>

kakoishii

12-07-2008, 12:12 AM

How did Kira, or Athrun get thrown under the bus to make Shinn a better character? Neither of them actually made Shinn look better as a character. Kira made Shinn look great as a pilot, and Athrun, well he made Shinn appear to be the only person who actually knew how to act like a SOLDIER in all of SEED. Neither of those really boosts his character. Neither does Cagalli's nerfing at the hands of Morosawa. They were writtne poorly because Morosawa admitted she couldn't write the old characters with the new it was too hard for her.
are those don't make him look like a better character? Morosawa admitting she couldn't write the new characters in with the old is also a problem, but nothing can be done about that. At least she knows she goofed up.

How was he emotionally stunted? For the majority of the series he acted like a normal teenager. Only his motivations for fighting and his views on the Orb Union were actually motivated by what happened to his family, neither of which makes him developmentally stunted as you claim.
that was exactly what bothered me. He used the death of his family to justify everything and really that's not healthy. It shows that he hasn't come to terms with his family's death, he's still grieving, and he's piloting a giant robot :huh There's no way any good can come from that combination. It also always baffled me that after seeing his family killed by a mobile suit he joins the army and learns to pilot one?

Shinn concluded what Kira was doing was wrong for himself. Shinn decided to fight for Durandal on his own, he simply needed reassurance from Rey. Shinn knew he had to shoot Athrun and Meyrin down on his own, he was just conflicted over it because Athrun, and Meyrin were friends. But Shinn's actions are pretty much always his own choices.
Shin was always conflicted when he needed to make decisions. What he got from Rey and Durandal weren't reassurances, but nudges, because shin seriously couldn't make a decision on his own. He'd likely fall back on another flash back of his family's death and then make a rash decision based on that. It's more on the fact that he's still grieving and thus why his character is so reckless.

And what are those? Honestly you say this provide no examples and this makes it so? >.> Hating his character is all well and good but when you list reason's they're supposed ot be supported in something. Preferably the show.
we both watched the same show correct? Durandal planned to eradicate war but eliminating choice and thus making it so people's lives were pre-destined from birth. Rey was working to realize Durandal's dream. No reason to be snarky, but I didn't list "reasons" from the show because I assumed we all knew what happened, but my mistake :oh

No doubt Shin was being manipulated by both Durandal and Rey to act as a soldier to fulfill their dream. When Durandal realize Athrun wouldn't be so easily manipulated he had Shin take care of him by having Rey convince him to.

>.> So Kira thinks things through? He ran into the middle of a fight between the EA allied with Orb against ZAFT and he didn't get attacking ZAFT would piss them off, but that's excusable? It's also not like that is a new development in SEED Destiny either. The entire TSA in SEED did the same thing, fought pointless battle after battle with no clear goal or means to end the war. They just kinda lucked out that Jachin Due exhausted the fighting forces for both sides.
just because I disliked shin as a character doesn't me I glorify kira by consequence. Everyone in this series made serious judgment lapses, but since Shin was the main character his mistakes were placed front and center. They're a lot harder to ignore and shoved in your face to an obnoxious degree, that's really the only difference.

Durandal wasn't a nut job. Hell, Fukuda said it himself in his post Destiny Interview. Kira and Lacus are the ones who strayed from the Path of Justice. Here in an expert from my post on Mechatalk Forums.

- Shinn seems to have realized that he's wrong during the final confrontation against Athrun, have you ever thought of the possibility that he may go to Kira's side?

Fukuda : I have absolutely no such intention right from the start, because I always want to create a story where in the end Shinn loses everything except Lunamaria. I hope people don't misunderstand it, I don't think Shinn is incorrect (unjust? wrong?) at all. What Shinn and Dullindal have done are all for the good of the world, on the other hand Kira's side is the one which has somewhat deviated from the path of justice.

mcred23 wrote:
While I know there is probably some degree of truth to a lot of this, I can't help but be reminded of the many 'quotes' attributed to Yoshiyuki Tomino I've seen over the years that are totally BS, and I wouldn't be suprised if at least one or two of Fukuda's turned out to be as well. It would probably be best for people to post the interviews that the quotes or comments they're interested in come from (Or links to them, to avoid a bunch of overly long posts), if only to confirm that Fukuda (Or whomever, if it's someone else from the production staff) actually said them at some point...

Here these are a few links which seem to confirm the text I posted already. Including a link to buy the back issue of animage specifically inquestion.

http://www.animecornerstore.com/animage.html
http://blog.yam.com/ekliptiko/archives/706118.html
http://www.celestialbeing.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=190804&st=0&p=206864&#entry206864
That may have been his intentive message, but I honestly didn't get it. I could never believe that Shin was in the right. Perhaps Kira and crew may not have gone about everything right, but I don't see what's so unjust by giving people the choice to live their lives how they want even if it should end up in wars from time to time. That's life, and when you try to control it you're playing god and that's what Durandal tried to do. Shin realized he was wrong in the end? I didn't really get that from the last episode, but even still from this point on he's got a lot of growing up to do. For starters the guy needs to let his grieving process run its course because it obviously hasn't yet.

51 episodes? What? It's more like 50 flat with the 51rst being 50 with more footaged tagged on to make Terminal's win look like less hax then it initially did plus a Darth Lacus scene where it looks like she's Darth Sidious exited his shuttle on the Death Star II.
my bad, it's been a while since I finished the series I really couldn't remember if it was 50, 51, or 52 episodes long so I went with the middle number.

Biolink

12-07-2008, 01:41 AM

we both watched the same show correct? Durandal planned to eradicate war but eliminating choice and thus making it so people's lives were pre-destined from birth. Rey was working to realize Durandal's dream. No reason to be snarky, but I didn't list "reasons" from the show because I assumed we all knew what happened, but my mistake

No doubt Shin was being manipulated by both Durandal and Rey to act as a soldier to fulfill their dream. When Durandal realize Athrun wouldn't be so easily manipulated he had Shin take care of him by having Rey convince him to.

Ye old, Destiny Plan debate.

I would handle this, but I have a crazy headache, and don't feel like wrapping my mind around this at the moment.

Maybe if I'm still up and Red or Newtype don't respond, but for the time being

http://s3.amazonaws.com/giflix/gifs/yr5xiwn4gkya.gif?AWSAccessKeyId=0NEMFYTS5VQ806HF9C R2&Expires=1228629592&Signature=9uGCvTB8SUITAId%2BpDJUubBwh%2FE%3D

Red Zaku

12-07-2008, 02:11 AM

are those don't make him look like a better character?

No. Looking good as a pilot isn't the same as looking good as a character. Nor does acting like a soldier = good character. Grunts act like soldiers they're horrible characters. Kira depending on if they're grunts or not is a good pilot, but his character was horrible and completely static throughout all of Destiny.

Morosawa admitting she couldn't write the new characters in with the old is also a problem, but nothing can be done about that. At least she knows she goofed up.

Actually worse, she admitted she had trouble writing them, but then goes on in her interview to try and suggest that her writing was still very good, and that changes in the characters that pissed fans off like those with Cagalli were because Fans didn't understand the characters or their relationships.

that was exactly what bothered me. He used the death of his family to justify everything and really that's not healthy.

He didn't use it to justify anything. He used it as motivation. Motivation is not the same thing as Jusitifcation.

It also always baffled me that after seeing his family killed by a mobile suit he joins the army and learns to pilot one?

So he can make sure no other families have to go through what he went through.

Shin was always conflicted when he needed to make decisions.

The only decision you could argue he was truly conflicted about was shooting down Athrun and Meyrin. Everything else he'd already made up his mind on. Everything else was just a reassurance in his decision.

we both watched the same show correct? Durandal planned to eradicate war but eliminating choice and thus making it so people's lives were pre-destined from birth.

x.x We both watched the show which contained NO ACTUAL DETAILS on the Destiny Plan. Just a bunch of baseless speculation on the part of the Archangel Crew and Lacus. The only concrete info we have on the Destiny Plan comes from Destiny and Delta Astray. The only think pre-determined for you is your Job, and even that's optional. You don't actually hav eto work at what you're assigned, but if you don't want to you leave ths society. No one get's executed, black baged, or drugged. Literally the whole cause of war in CE was jealousy. The Destiny Plan sets everyone as equals by making the value of everyone the same to the whole society.

Rey was working to realize Durandal's dream. No reason to be snarky, but I didn't list "reasons" from the show because I assumed we all knew what happened, but my mistake :oh

We all know what happened. The Difference is some of us have more information from the two official side stories to Destiny that flesh out more of the story hence giving us a better frame to judge things.

No doubt Shin was being manipulated by both Durandal and Rey to act as a soldier to fulfill their dream.

Except of course Shinn desided to follow Durandal, and then he was reassured by Rey and Durandal after he'd already concluded it's what he wanted to do.

When Durandal realize Athrun wouldn't be so easily manipulated he had Shin take care of him by having Rey convince him to.

>.> Not like Athrun never told him about meeting with Kira and Lacus something Durandal wanted Athrun to tell him about. Athrun didn't show questionable judgement by hardly putting up resistence to Kira, and then striking Shinn for shooting the Freedom down? Yeah, Athrun did nothing to actually make himself look suspicious at at all. <.<

That may have been his intentive message, but I honestly didn't get it. I could never believe that Shin was in the right. Perhaps Kira and crew may not have gone about everything right, but I don't see what's so unjust by giving people the choice to live their lives how they want even if it should end up in wars from time to time.

Durandal wasn't taking away peoples freedom on how to live their life, just what job to work at. Even then that Freedom wasn't actually removed. You just couldn't work int he Destiny Plan Society. Which is why some nations rejecting the Plan like Scandinavia was actually a GOOD thing for Durandal.

kakoishii

12-07-2008, 06:53 PM

No. Looking good as a pilot isn't the same as looking good as a character. Nor does acting like a soldier = good character. Grunts act like soldiers they're horrible characters. Kira depending on if they're grunts or not is a good pilot, but his character was horrible and completely static throughout all of Destiny.
I see what you're saying, but although a lot of those character characteristics can do nothing to make the character look better they can also be employed to make the character look better to. That in contrast with how poorly written Kira and Athrun were made Shin look better by comparison.

Actually worse, she admitted she had trouble writing them, but then goes on in her interview to try and suggest that her writing was still very good, and that changes in the characters that pissed fans off like those with Cagalli were because Fans didn't understand the characters or their relationships.
Well, then the real problems with destiny happened way before it was translated into an anime, and that's a real shame.

He didn't use it to justify anything. He used it as motivation. Motivation is not the same thing as Jusitifcation.
motivation to carry out a task, it all amounts to the same end.

So he can make sure no other families have to go through what he went through.
That still makes no sense to me. If I watched my family get killed by the military the last thing on my mind would be to join the military, I'd want to eradicate the military. If you align his reasons for joining ZAFT with all his other decisions and actions through out the series, it would make it seem like the single most mature decision he ever made. When you pilot a mobile suit someone's going to die. When Shin went out onto the battle field rarely if ever did he make sure no innocent people were getting caught in the crossfire, but he joined the military to make sure no other family would get killed the way his was? I dunno if I can believe that, perhaps more of Morokawa's shotty writing.

The only decision you could argue he was truly conflicted about was shooting down Athrun and Meyrin. Everything else he'd already made up his mind on. Everything else was just a reassurance in his decision.
I'd have to pull out the episodes to confirm if there were anymore, but I honestly don't have that kind of time, so I won't try to dispute this.

x.x We both watched the show which contained NO ACTUAL DETAILS on the Destiny Plan. Just a bunch of baseless speculation on the part of the Archangel Crew and Lacus. The only concrete info we have on the Destiny Plan comes from Destiny and Delta Astray. The only think pre-determined for you is your Job, and even that's optional. You don't actually hav eto work at what you're assigned, but if you don't want to you leave ths society. No one get's executed, black baged, or drugged. Literally the whole cause of war in CE was jealousy. The Destiny Plan sets everyone as equals by making the value of everyone the same to the whole society.
And if you leave the society what are your alternatives for working and making a living? If this destiny plan was to erradicate war by eliminating jealousy then how would it work if people didn't have to adhere to it?

Except of course Shinn desided to follow Durandal, and then he was reassured by Rey and Durandal after he'd already concluded it's what he wanted to do.
that's debatable. I question Shin's ability to make clear minded decisions. His basis for making any decision throughout the series was based on either prodding by Durandal and Rey, or the "motivation" he keeps in his back pocket (again not healthy to keep playing your dead sister's voice mail over and over on a nearly daily basis). So to say it's what he already wanted is taking a big leap of faith.

>.> Not like Athrun never told him about meeting with Kira and Lacus something Durandal wanted Athrun to tell him about. Athrun didn't show questionable judgement by hardly putting up resistence to Kira, and then striking Shinn for shooting the Freedom down? Yeah, Athrun did nothing to actually make himself look suspicious at at all. <.<
I never said Athrun didn't make it plainly obvious he wouldn't do Durandal's bidding, but it isn't even like Durandal didn't know from the start that Athrun's trust would be hard to gain, afterall he did send Lunamaria to ███ on him.

Wesley

12-07-2008, 07:58 PM

I can kind of see Kira as being traumatized by the events in Seed, especially by what happened at the end. Though I wish he hadn't simply been sitting around in an orphanage for two years, doing nothing, while Lacus changed his IV drip every few hours. Not doing anything with yourself is a sure fire way to drive you mad, no matter how hot and empathic your nurse is.

He should have actively worked to rebuild Orb or at least be shown trying to do something like that. Not simply waited around until Freedom was needed again.

I can kind of see Athrun wanting to take control and do something with his life and talents. And Gil seemed to give him the green light to do pretty much anything he as he saw fit, but he didn't really seem to apply that authority. Plus the fact that Shinn frequently and unprofessionally undermined him out of pure spite.

He would have been alright if he didn't have Orb and Cagalli weighing him down. Breaking off the relationship was the right thing to do, but he shouldn't have held on to it like he did.

I can even see Cagalli sucking at traditional politics and weighing policy vs. principals, and when to assert her authority and in what way. That she would be inexperienced is believeable, but I'd rather her make bad decisions and mistakes because she's overly assertive, probably as a means of compensating, rather than hopelessly unassertive as was the case in Destiny.

I did like the little gag with the Wedding Rescue though. That was funny.

Also, I'd completely ditched the concept of LOGOS. Ancient secret organizations controlling everything suck. They're the foundation for conspiracy theories, not storylines based on the real world. They're very annoying and war profiteering isn't anywhere near what it's cracked up to be.

And if they insist on presenting the Destiny Plan, I'd wish they wouldn't simply have implied how Gil was going to implement it, and shown him actually forcing everyone to comply with it. They shouldn't have killed him off without him actually having not done anything yet.

Red Zaku

12-07-2008, 08:49 PM

I see what you're saying, but although a lot of those character characteristics can do nothing to make the character look better they can also be employed to make the character look better to. That in contrast with how poorly written Kira and Athrun were made Shin look better by comparison.

But that's certianly not why Kira or Athrun were written that way which was what you were tyring to assert. That they were nerfed to make Shinn look better. In reality the writer was just that bad, and made horribly static characters.

Well, then the real problems with destiny happened way before it was translated into an anime, and that's a real shame.

Was that really so shocking? I mean think about, in SEED Fukuda in his interviews admits Orb is an ideal Japan, and he brought back Waltfeld because he liked his voice actor. Knowing there were major script revisions to create piss poor plot twists like that just because a character's VA was good, should have been fair warning they were dealing with a terrible director.

motivation to carry out a task, it all amounts to the same end.

>.> Motivation is the thing that drives you to do something. Justification is the reverse in that it's used after the fact to explain why you did it regardless of whether it was you actual motivation at the time or not.

That still makes no sense to me. If I watched my family get killed by the military the last thing on my mind would be to join the military, I'd want to eradicate the military.

See, and I would join tyhe military fighting that military so I could get justice. No matter how you look at it we'd want revenge you simply would become a pacifist but your route isn't necessarily indicative of proper logic vs. poor logic or good choice vs. bad choice.

If you align his reasons for joining ZAFT with all his other decisions and actions through out the series, it would make it seem like the single most mature decision he ever made.

Despite what you think the decision to follow orders and face death every time he sorties is a pretty damn mature decision.

When you pilot a mobile suit someone's going to die.

>.> So Shinn should have a problem killing enemy soldiers? When you pilot an MS it's assured someone will die sure. It's not assured that someone will be a civilian, nor is it assured you'd be the one harming that civilian. If you want to look at it in a broader perspective WAR is what promises innocents will die, and Durandal's goal of eradicating the source of conflict Identifies well with Shinn's desire to protect innocent people.

When Shin went out onto the battle field rarely if ever did he make sure no innocent people were getting caught in the crossfire,

O.o; Shinn doesn't get to choose where he fights. The point is as far as we know he never actually killed any civilians at all. In fact he frees a bunch of civilians put into forced Labor camps by the EA something Athrun punches him in the face for doing.

but he joined the military to make sure no other family would get killed the way his was? I dunno if I can believe that, perhaps more of Morokawa's shotty writing.

Why not? Because Shinn has to fight in areas with people? How is that his fault? The point is, he fights to make sure not one of them is harmed by the people he's fighting.

And if you leave the society what are your alternatives for working and making a living?

The Kingdom of Scandinavia was a potential Destination, as they rejected the Plan, and all indications said had Orb, not let Lacus lead their forces into an epic final battle Orb as well.

If this destiny plan was to erradicate war by eliminating jealousy then how would it work if people didn't have to adhere to it?

If you're raised to work a certain job chances are you like it you wouldn't wan tto leave anyway. And since you're of equal worht in society as the next guy, there is no reason to be pissy about him being better then you. >.> Which is what set off the first two wars. Because Coordinators were superior to Naturals. Now that no one is superior to anyone there is no reason to be hostile with each other.

that's debatable. I question Shin's ability to make clear minded decisions. His basis for making any decision throughout the series was based on either prodding by Durandal and Rey, or the "motivation" he keeps in his back pocket (again not healthy to keep playing your dead sister's voice mail over and over on a nearly daily basis).

Based on what and who's opinion? Yours? x.x Most psychiatrists would consider that a very good coping method for getting over severe trauma. But honestly it's silly to suggest it's bad to want to remember how the voice of someone close to you sound safter they've died. Hell, there was a recent story about a man in New York who did the same thing until the company changed it's voicemail service and her message was lost.

I never said Athrun didn't make it plainly obvious he wouldn't do Durandal's bidding, but it isn't even like Durandal didn't know from the start that Athrun's trust would be hard to gain, afterall he did send Lunamaria to ███ on him.

You need to re-watch that episode. It was Talia who sent Luna to ███ on Athrun, because Athrun told Talia about the meeting and she was the one who didn't trust him. They weren't in communication with Durandal at the time.

Apollo Flame

12-07-2008, 09:43 PM

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo51/panzer-hummel/Memes/1225818626373.jpg

Wesley

12-07-2008, 09:47 PM

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo51/panzer-hummel/Memes/1225818626373.jpg

I've heard that Destiny was based on an early concept design of Freedom. Which kind of means it'd already been passed over in favor of a presumably better design. :awesome

NewtypeS3

12-07-2008, 10:17 PM

Wesley

12-07-2008, 10:30 PM

Yes, it is true that the Destiny was (at one point in its development) an early design for the Freedom - the whole multiple-packs-in-one thing.
That said, it doesn't mean the Freedom was a better design... :facepalm

It still supports the idea that Freedom is a better design. Really, the whole claim that Destiny, SF, and IJ were all equal is something that's only based on the word of god. Practically, I think that Destiny and IJ suck, as do any design that emphasises melee combat over guns. And arguably the only way in which they were equal is techbase.

kakoishii

12-07-2008, 10:42 PM

But that's certianly not why Kira or Athrun were written that way which was what you were tyring to assert. That they were nerfed to make Shinn look better. In reality the writer was just that bad, and made horribly static characters.
and bad writing antics persist...

>.> Motivation is the thing that drives you to do something. Justification is the reverse in that it's used after the fact to explain why you did it regardless of whether it was you actual motivation at the time or not.

O.o; Shinn doesn't get to choose where he fights. The point is as far as we know he never actually killed any civilians at all.

I was more referring to his memory of his parents death. Whether he's using it to justify an action after the fact, or motivating him to do it before hand it all amounts to the same end.

>.> So Shinn should have a problem killing enemy soldiers? When you pilot an MS it's assured someone will die sure. It's not assured that someone will be a civilian, nor is it assured you'd be the one harming that civilian. If you want to look at it in a broader perspective WAR is what promises innocents will die, and Durandal's goal of eradicating the source of conflict Identifies well with Shinn's desire to protect innocent people.
And so the mobile suit that was responsible for the death of his family didn't have protecting innocents in mind? And despite the fact that as far as we known Shin didn't kill any innocents, as far as we know the mobile suit pilot responsible for the death of his family had no idea that he had killed any innocents, it could have been some horrible mistake. Does that justify it? No, however, these are things Shin obviously has never considered. Perhaps had he gone to therapy after such a traumatic experience he'd of been better adjusted.

If you're raised to work a certain job chances are you like it you wouldn't wan tto leave anyway. And since you're of equal worht in society as the next guy, there is no reason to be pissy about him being better then you. >.> Which is what set off the first two wars. Because Coordinators were superior to Naturals. Now that no one is superior to anyone there is no reason to be hostile with each other.
I don't know the whole plan just seems pretty ill-conceived. Isn't it a bit simplistic to believe there's only one cause of war, and that you could so easily remove that factor so that war won't occur? I know that this is all fictional, but if you're going to go through all the complicated back story it just seems like a very sloppy cop out to write that one guy seemed to figure out the ultimate cause for war and how to get rid of it.

Based on what and who's opinion? Yours? x.x Most psychiatrists would consider that a very good coping method for getting over severe trauma. But honestly it's silly to suggest it's bad to want to remember how the voice of someone close to you sound safter they've died. Hell, there was a recent story about a man in New York who did the same thing until the company changed it's voicemail service and her message was lost.
If you lose a loved one and you have video or a voice message, or anything that reminds you of them that you go back and listen to, look at, etc. from to time to time, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But multiple times everyday, for how many years since the incident? That's not healthy by any means. It shows that he hasn't accepted what has happened and he hasn't completed his grieving process. When you lose someone at first you're helplessly sad and the mere memory of that person can bring you to tears. My mother couldn't even look at a picture of her mom in the months following her death because it was too hard on her. But as time goes by it gets easier, you can remember that person and be happy of the time you spent with them. Shin has been in that first stage of grieving for years, and he hasn't faced it or gotten over it. If he wants to hears his sisters voice every once in a while, fine, every hour of every day, that's an unhealthy attachment.

You need to re-watch that episode. It was Talia who sent Luna to ███ on Athrun, because Athrun told Talia about the meeting and she was the one who didn't trust him. They weren't in communication with Durandal at the time.
It has been a while, so I definitely flubbed on that detail.

Jetstorm

12-07-2008, 10:44 PM

Should have just avoided Destiny like people said. The series has so many horrible elements it is infuriating. The raping of Cagalli's character is one. :facepalm

Ugh, Shinn Asuka wasn't enjoyable as a main character for me either so that didn't help. :argh

Ghetto Kyuubi

12-07-2008, 10:54 PM

I just finish Gundam Seed Destiny yesterday, it was alright, that Shin Kid was alright nothing special or great or to be hated over like the rest of the cast.

NewtypeS3

12-07-2008, 11:19 PM

It still supports the idea that Freedom is a better design. Really, the whole claim that Destiny, SF, and IJ were all equal is something that's only based on the word of god. Practically, I think that Destiny and IJ suck, as do any design that emphasises melee combat over guns. And arguably the only way in which they were equal is techbase.
And your opinion somehow equals the proverbial word-of-God that is Bandai, Sunrise and the director?
And furthermore, bad designs don't equate to bad suits. After all, you claim the S-Freedom is a 'great design,' and yet the unit has DRAGOONs covering the only form of propulsion the unit has! This is not a good design feature, nor will it ever be.

I was more referring to his memory of his parents death. Whether he's using it to justify an action after the fact, or motivating him to do it before hand it all amounts to the same end.
Not really.
Justification happens after-the-fact. Motivation has someone driven to do something. Shin joined ZAFT to ensure no one else would have to suffer through what he did, to make sure there would be no one like him again.
Motivation is "that man has a gun, I'm taking him out." Justification is "I took that man out, but he had a gun, so it's fine." The results may be similar, but the intent and delivery are completely different.

And so the mobile suit that was responsible for the death of his family didn't have protecting innocents in mind? And despite the fact that as far as we known Shin didn't kill any innocents, as far as we know the mobile suit pilot responsible for the death of his family had no idea that he had killed any innocents, it could have been some horrible mistake.
...and? Shin didn't know what mobile suit caused the death of his family. For all he knew, it could have been a random Strike Dagger shot, especially considering he wasn't looking at his family when the explosion happened.
It doesn't who killed his parents - the entire conflict at Orb was because Orb was being stubbornly 'neutral' and openly fought in spite of claiming to be 'neutral.' The whole situation itself was started by the EA being dicks and fighting in the first place - which means that he blames the EA and Orb equally. He only has visible ire for Orb because the leader proclaimed his people would be safe... and they weren't.

Does that justify it? No, however, these are things Shin obviously has never considered. Perhaps had he gone to therapy after such a traumatic experience he'd of been better adjusted.
And yet, we don't know if he went to therapy or not. Because it's a two-year-gap between Shin showing up in Orb and when we next see him.
And it's obvious that he was actually decently-adjusted, because whenever you join a military force, you have to go through psychological evaluations before they admit you.

If you lose a loved one and you have video or a voice message, or anything that reminds you of them that you go back and listen to, look at, etc. from to time to time, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But multiple times everyday, for how many years since the incident? That's not healthy by any means.
Ah, but you're forgetting the context of the use.
Shin uses his sister's cell phone and her voice-mail in order to remember what happened - and to drive himself forward in life. It's no different than someone carrying an item from a deceased relative or friend to remember them.
I, for example, have a chain from a pocketwatch that my grandfather bought for me wrapped around my arm as a bracelet. The pocketwatch itself has since fallen apart and died, but I keep the chain to remember the fond times I had with him - even if he's not gone from this world yet.
I also keep AMVs that a friend of mine made a few years before he took a gun to his mouth and killed himself. I play them every once in a while to remember him - even if he took his own life. The man was a close friend of mine in high school, and I choose to remember him for what he did then - not how he left life.
I also keep an old packet of toothpicks around on my desk to remember my great-grandfather, who passed away two years back. He loved those toothpicks, and by keeping them, I keep his memory fresh in my head - especially for how I knew him, and now what I would learn later about him.

It shows that he hasn't accepted what has happened and he hasn't completed his grieving process. When you lose someone at first you're helplessly sad and the mere memory of that person can bring you to tears. My mother couldn't even look at a picture of her mom in the months following her death because it was too hard on her. But as time goes by it gets easier, you can remember that person and be happy of the time you spent with them. Shin has been in that first stage of grieving for years, and he hasn't faced it or gotten over it. If he wants to hears his sisters voice every once in a while, fine, every hour of every day, that's an unhealthy attachment.
And yet, you don't know how often he listens to it. In fact, Shin's not the only one who does this. There's a real-life man who lost his wife several years ago, and yet listens to her voice-mail each day to remember her:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/04/09/man-repeatedly-calls.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,339132,00.html

People deal with death differently. Your mother couldn't bear to remember until the pain was gone. This old man listened to the voice to comfort him, as it was one of the few things of his wife he had left. Batman, to cite another fictional character, obsesses over the death of his parents to drive him into his 'war' on crime. Comedian Christopher Titus was completely unemotional when his mother died until the scent of turkey on an airplane ride on the way home reminded him of the epic Thanksgiving dinners his mother used to make - and only then did he react... and was fine a few hours later.

Just because person X deals with death one way doesn't mean person Y won't deal with it the same way.

Wesley

12-08-2008, 12:07 AM

And your opinion somehow equals the proverbial word-of-God that is Bandai, Sunrise and the director?
And furthermore, bad designs don't equate to bad suits. After all, you claim the S-Freedom is a 'great design,' and yet the unit has DRAGOONs covering the only form of propulsion the unit has! This is not a good design feature, nor will it ever be.

If the Director declares that the sky is pink in a series and is shown to be blue, what is to be made of that? Word of god is stupid.

And that's probably not true or an exaggeration on your part. I'm not about to google pictures to prove you wrong though. My point that guns > swords, still stands though. It's simply the reality.

Not really.
Justification happens after-the-fact. Motivation has someone driven to do something. Shin joined ZAFT to ensure no one else would have to suffer through what he did, to make sure there would be no one like him again.
Motivation is "that man has a gun, I'm taking him out." Justification is "I took that man out, but he had a gun, so it's fine." The results may be similar, but the intent and delivery are completely different.

Shinn made no exclamation. He joined Zaft because it was offered to him.

...and? Shin didn't know what mobile suit caused the death of his family. For all he knew, it could have been a random Strike Dagger shot, especially considering he wasn't looking at his family when the explosion happened.

I've read that he believed it was Freedom, but that was never shown in the series. In fact, the series didn't even hint at him recognizing Freedom from that time. He was simply irritated by how it'd come flying into a battle and own everyone, until Stella was killed and he gained a major rageon.

It doesn't who killed his parents - the entire conflict at Orb was because Orb was being stubbornly 'neutral' and openly fought in spite of claiming to be 'neutral.' The whole situation itself was started by the EA being dicks and fighting in the first place - which means that he blames the EA and Orb equally. He only has visible ire for Orb because the leader proclaimed his people would be safe... and they weren't.

That shows how immature he is. Besides, in Orb's case, they are neutral, but they also recognized the need for a war resolution. Preferably one that was favorable to themselves and humanity as a whole.

And yet, we don't know if he went to therapy or not. Because it's a two-year-gap between Shin showing up in Orb and when we next see him.
And it's obvious that he was actually decently-adjusted, because whenever you join a military force, you have to go through psychological evaluations before they admit you.

This is Gundam. Piloting >>> psychology. Although, I don't think Shinn was really crazy. They just made him way more emotional and petty than I personally could stand. He's jealous of Athrun, he copes an attitude, he hates Orb because of what happened to his family. I can scarcely remember a scene where he wasn't screaming, being angry, sarcastic, arguementative, and unreasonable, even though I'm sure there were some.

It even seems like at some point in the series he was turned into an introvert, which is contrary to how he seemed to be hanging out with that one mechanic. When he grabbed Stella's boobs by accident.

Ultimately, he wasn't a very well rounded character.

Red Zaku

12-08-2008, 12:24 AM

If the Director declares that the sky is pink in a series and is shown to be blue, what is to be made of that?

The sky is Pink. That's what's to be made of that. Thankfully Fukuda's statements about who was right and who was wrong are supported by the fact Terminal, Lacus, and Orb conducted themselves in a manner that made them look bad. So it's not something that extreme at all.

Word of god is stupid.

No one said you had to like it. You just have to be quiet and live with it.

And that's probably not true or an exaggeration on your part.

It is true thanks to the model kit. The S-Freedom's main propulsion is the same system Destiny Units activated when it's wings are open and no DRAGOON's are attached. S-Freedom was concieved as a space fortress defense mobile suit. Hence it's not a problem when it space, but on Earth where DRAGOON's are useless it becomes a major concern since it can't use it's main propulsion system.

I'm not about to google pictures to prove you wrong though.

Well, that's good because at this point it's become common knowledge sort of thing.

Shinn made no exclamation. He joined Zaft because it was offered to him.

Except Shinn tells us he joined ZAFT to prevent tragadies from befalling innocents. We learn that in his narrated flashback episode. Remember how I told you to pay attention to 00 episodes? You need to do that with SEED episodes too apparently.

I've read that he believed it was Freedom, but that was never shown in the series.

The series showed Freedom was fighting Calamity and Raider and Druggy trio over Civilian Evacuation Zone. Even if it wasn't him it's still his fault for picking a crappy place to fight.

Ghetto Kyuubi

12-08-2008, 12:31 AM

Word of god is stupid.

No, Fans who think there opinions are above authors,director,creators or what have you, is what stupid.

Wesley

12-08-2008, 12:40 AM

No, Fans who think there opinions are above authors,director,creators or what have you, is what stupid.

If a car manufacturer claims a vehicle they produce has a mileage of 100 miles per gallon, but yields only ten, they're lying. No less should be expected from works of fiction.

It's their responsibility to back up their claims regarding their product. I do not believe they did, and besides that, suspension of disbelief is purely a voluntary act. And I have my standards.

kakoishii

12-08-2008, 12:54 AM

I'm tired am about to go to bed so I only want to stress my one point now and then go to sleep. How many times did we see the death of Shin's family flashback? How many times did we hear him listen to his sister's voicemail? Do you honestly believe he's healed any from watching his family die right before his eyes? From his behavior you'd think the event happened more recently than 2 years ago. People who are still grieving should not be piloting giant robots for the same reason people shouldn't go driving when they're upset.

@Newtype: I'm sure in real life and a better conceived fictional story mental examinations are employed for every new military recruit, but since seed destiny is in fact a poorly conceived fictional story (as admitted by the original author), then it's possible that even a mentally unstable individual could make his way onto ZAFT forces.

Ghetto Kyuubi

12-08-2008, 01:36 AM

If a car manufacturer claims a vehicle they produce has a mileage of 100 miles per gallon, but yields only ten, they're lying.

We are not talking about cars we are talking about fiction.

No less should be expected from works of fiction.

You can have your standards along with your opinion but when it comes down to what an authors says about his/her series AKA world he/she created its true, unless he/she says or shows other wise, Deal with it powerless fan.

Red Zaku

12-08-2008, 01:44 AM

If a car manufacturer claims a vehicle they produce has a mileage of 100 miles per gallon, but yields only ten, they're lying.

Of course that situation is NOTHING like this one. In which the Clyne Faction didn't act like good guys, and indeed often circumvented most laws to not only amass a fighting force but blindly claim that the Destiny Plan was evil based on literally nothing.

No less should be expected from works of fiction.

From Automakers. Yes. From film makers who's work is open to intepretation? They can say pretyt much whatever they want and be right. It's their work.

It's their responsibility to back up their claims regarding their product.

Aside from Music there is NOTHING in Destiny that contradicts Fukuda at all. Simply because you think Durandal looks the part of a villain doens't mean he is one.

I do not believe they did, and besides that, suspension of disbelief is purely a voluntary act.

No one honestly cares what you believe, because what you believe is not of more value then what the director of the series flat out tells you. It has nothing to do with suspension of disbelief.

And I have my standards.

>.> Judging by your posts in other topics those standards must be very low. Considering you yourself aren't above lying, or ignoring key story elements so you can illustrate how something is bad. Honestly if half the things you ever claimed were true, happened or didn't happen in the series you'd never be wrong, but thankfully 90% of the time in fact, you're generally glossing something over, lying about something, or flat out ignoring it's existance to try and validate your opinion.

I'm tired am about to go to bed so I only want to stress my one point now and then go to sleep. How many times did we see the death of Shin's family flashback?

Three times. It was covered start of the series, in Shinn's flash back narrated episode, and once again towards the end of the series.

How many times did we hear him listen to his sister's voicemail?

About twice. We saw it once around the begining, and then he listens to it before he sorties for his final battle. It gets so much attention because people like to try and pick any reason they can out of a hat to make Shinn somehow seem insane.

Do you honestly believe he's healed any from watching his family die right before his eyes?

Yes, because he's made positive steps with his own life while keeping their memory close to his heart. Do any of us every truly and completely get over the death of our loved ones? He doesn't self-sabotage himself, he hasn't let his grief turn him into an invalid, and he's using the image of what happened as positive motivation for wanting to make a difference in the world.

From his behavior you'd think the event happened more recently than 2 years ago.

>.> Again, who is ever truly over the death of their loved ones? Though I fail to see how listening to his sisters voice mail all of something like two times = still incredibly hung up over it.

People who are still grieving should not be piloting giant robots for the same reason people shouldn't go driving when they're upset.

People generally never stop grieving over the loss of a loved one. Just gradually over time the reactions to the memories become less severe.

@Newtype: I'm sure in real life and a better conceived fictional story mental examinations are employed for every new military recruit,

And what about Shinn says mentally unfit to pilot? I mean aside from nothing. Unless you want to cite end of series break down, but then that had more to do with Shinn being nerfed to ensure a flawless victory for the TSA then because he was mentally unstable since that wasn't reflected at any point in the animation.

but since seed destiny is in fact a poorly conceived fictional story

Honestly it's about as poorly concieved as the idea if you do something like listen to the voice of your dead sibling via phone message twice, and act completely normal at all other times, and rarely if ever bring up what happened to your family you're crazy....

(as admitted by the original author),

Except did I not say how while Morosawa admitted having trouble writing the older characters with the new she never once said the story was poor or bad? In fact did I not explain she claimed the story was great and any problem the fans had with her work was because the fans didn't know the characters? I could have sworn I did.... Hmm... you need to pay attention.

then it's possible that even a mentally unstable individual could make his way onto ZAFT forces.

......Except he's not mentally unstable..... at all.......you know what. At this point I'm pretty sure you're probably just posting inane Shinn hate because you can only remember things you don't like about him.

Wesley

12-08-2008, 07:24 AM

We are not talking about cars we are talking about fiction.

It's an analogy. I know it, you know it, just accept the fact it's part of the English Language.

You can have your standards along with your opinion but when it comes down to what an authors says about his/her series AKA world he/she created its true, unless he/she says or shows other wise, Deal with it powerless fan.

Like you mindlessly enjoy every bit of media that comes your way. Hypocrite.

Jon Snow

12-08-2008, 07:27 AM

SEED Destiny sucks.

SEED is awesome.

:LOS

Red Zaku

12-08-2008, 09:42 AM

It's an analogy. I know it, you know it, just accept the fact it's part of the English Language.

Analogies can still be so poorly made they don't actually mirror the original situation they're compared to in the slightest. He knows it. I know it, you apparently were absent that day in class.

Like you mindlessly enjoy every bit of media that comes your way. Hypocrite.

How dsoes not enjoyinmg everything he sees make him a hypocrite? Wait, it doesn't. Yep, forgot who I'm speaking to again. He'd only be a hypicrite if he found himself trying to suggest his opinion was greater then the directors of X anime whether he liked it or not. Since he's not doing that, he's not a hyopcrite. >.> Wesley you're not holding back the obviousness of the trolling anymore are you?

Sander RX

12-08-2008, 11:01 AM

Wesley

12-08-2008, 11:27 AM

About Wesley's guns>swords.This true to an extent,a normal unit cant afford charging in at guns from a distance with a beamsaber...something like I.Justice however CAN pull this off.
Look at Crossbone.

Even if it can be pulled off, guns would still be better. If you have to close with a target to do damage, you're automatically at a disadvantage. Really, the only way melee could work at all in an aerial battle is if you're as fast or faster than any and all ranged ordinance available.

And even with Stealth and ECM, they're not going to start slapping swords and spears onto F-22s, because suddenly missles aren't reliable. They'll just add more guns and ammo and do it like they did in WW2. Only at mach 2.

Sander RX

12-08-2008, 02:30 PM

Even if it can be pulled off, guns would still be better. If you have to close with a target to do damage, you're automatically at a disadvantage. Really, the only way melee could work at all in an aerial battle is if you're as fast or faster than any and all ranged ordinance available.

And even with Stealth and ECM, they're not going to start slapping swords and spears onto F-22s, because suddenly missles aren't reliable. They'll just add more guns and ammo and do it like they did in WW2. Only at mach 2.
While it maybe true for the real world...not so much for Gundamverse.You see beamsabers have proven to be a serious weapon in ALL of Gundam franchise.There are constantly melee situations in all series.Hell!Most of the important character vs character fight involve beamsabers.Even Virtue and Seravee have them.
If melee suits were as ineffective as you say then:
1)Epyon wouldnt dominate everything until Wing Zero...to which it lost in saber-fight.
2)I.Justice wouldnt have steamrolled Destiny on two occasions while S.Freedom hardly did any hurt to it(except 2 railgun hits and a kick).
3)Crossbone,nuff said.

Wesley

12-08-2008, 02:53 PM

And I appreciate that. Afterall it's basically about armored samurai fighting eachother in space when you get right down to it. However, I still despise the dishonesty of Destiny's Director that Destiny, IJ, and SF are all basically on equal terms with eachother when they clearly are not.

Otherwise, the way I see it, if they really want to justify the presence of melee weapons in Gundam, the obvious solution is limited ammo. In real life, knives are still carried by infantry not only because of their utility, but because sometimes that's what it comes down to. Worst comes to worst, you've still got your knife and it could kill thousands before it gives out.

kakoishii

12-08-2008, 05:10 PM

Three times. It was covered start of the series, in Shinn's flash back narrated episode, and once again towards the end of the series.
three times?! I admit it's been a while since I finished the series, but the flashback of Shin's family getting killed was recycled to the point where it became eye-rolling inducing. But then again a lot of scenes were recycled through flashback, so who knows maybe you're right.

About twice. We saw it once around the begining, and then he listens to it before he sorties for his final battle. It gets so much attention because people like to try and pick any reason they can out of a hat to make Shinn somehow seem insane.
this too seems like an underestimate. I'm not so obsessed that I'm going to go through all 50 episodes and count though, but twice just doesn't seem right.

Yes, because he's made positive steps with his own life while keeping their memory close to his heart. Do any of us every truly and completely get over the death of our loved ones? He doesn't self-sabotage himself, he hasn't let his grief turn him into an invalid, and he's using the image of what happened as positive motivation for wanting to make a difference in the world.
no one ever truly gets over grief but they do make progress to the point where it isn't so deafening to them. I believe Shin hasn't made wide steps you believe he has, and it's become obvious there can be nothing said that can convince either of us otherwise so I will agree to disagree.

And what about Shinn says mentally unfit to pilot? I mean aside from nothing. Unless you want to cite end of series break down, but then that had more to do with Shinn being nerfed to ensure a flawless victory for the TSA then because he was mentally unstable since that wasn't reflected at any point in the animation.
My point was joining the army and jumping into the cockpit of a giant robot not long after having lost your family just doesn't seem right. It's acting on pure emotion alone, grief no less, and those emotions are not always if ever well thought out.

pExcept did I not say how while Morosawa admitted having trouble writing the older characters with the new she never once said the story was poor or bad? In fact did I not explain she claimed the story was great and any problem the fans had with her work was because the fans didn't know the characters? I could have sworn I did.... Hmm... you need to pay attention.
right...again no need to be snide I've yet to be catty in any way so please refrain from being so yourself....

anyway despite the fact she didn't admit the story to be ill-conceived herself there's no dodging the fact it had its share of problems. Also I don't see how you can admit trouble writing new characters with old but admit no ill-effect that they may have had on the story. Perhaps she sincerely saw no connection, but I guess that's inconsequential.

......Except he's not mentally unstable..... at all.......you know what. At this point I'm pretty sure you're probably just posting inane Shinn hate because you can only remember things you don't like about him.
....no, not all.....really ::sigh:: I'm posting my genuine feelings regarding the character. I didn't take to him as you have or seemingly how the original author intended. I'm posting my impressions of the character and why I didn't take to him. Why are we disputing personal opinion anyway? You can't make me like Shin anymore than I can make you hate him, so why don't we just respect each other's opinions?

Ghetto Kyuubi

12-08-2008, 07:44 PM

It's an analogy. I know it, you know it, just accept the fact it's part of the English Language.

I accept thats It's a bad analogy, nothing more.

Like you mindlessly enjoy every bit of media that comes your way. Hypocrite.

Wut?

Red Zaku

12-08-2008, 09:53 PM

However, I still despise the dishonesty of Destiny's Director

Dishonesty? >.> What? How can he lie about something he controls?

that Destiny, IJ, and SF are all basically on equal terms with eachother when they clearly are not.

Fukuda wasn't even the one who said that. The official model kits say as much. Destiny = Legend = S-Freedom = I-Justice with one minor exception of the model kits making Destiny the fastest combat MS in CE. The fact S-Freedom can't get the edge over Shinn who has only a beam rifle, and the mega particle cannon, is sor tof proof that Shinn and Destiny are in no way inferior to S-Freedom.

Otherwise, the way I see it,

Well thank god tha'ts completely skewed, and unreflective of reality.

if they really want to justify the presence of melee weapons in Gundam, the obvious solution is limited ammo.

>.> There already is limited ammo. Not to mention close range engagements in real life are still incredibly common which is why the bayonette, and trench knife are still standard issue in every army.

In real life, knives are still carried by infantry not only because of their utility, but because sometimes that's what it comes down to.

That's precisely why close combat weapons are used in Gundam.... Your obvious failure to pay attention once again shows through.

------------------------------------

three times?! I admit it's been a while since I finished the series, but the flashback of Shin's family getting killed was recycled to the point where it became eye-rolling inducing.

It wasn't. Three times. x.x Begining, semi-middle and end. There wasn't that much use of it at all. And it gets used even LESS in the movies.

this too seems like an underestimate. I'm not so obsessed that I'm going to go through all 50 episodes and count though, but twice just doesn't seem right.

Again, I don't like it's only about two or three times. It's use largely get's exagerated because of Shinn's break down end of series and then people tryijng to justify that in his character leading up tot hat point. Some going so far as to suggest his rage induced SEED mode was nothing more then a Berseker mode the whole series despite Shinn clearly fighting smart while in SEED mode.

My point was joining the army and jumping into the cockpit of a giant robot not long after having lost your family just doesn't seem right.

We don't know when he joined the military. Shinn goes from 14 to 16. That's two full years of time that we have no clue what happened. Saying precisely when he decided to join ZAFT's military, or even suggesting it to be a quick decision whihc your quote seems to imply just doesn't fit.

It's acting on pure emotion alone, grief no less, and those emotions are not always if ever well thought out.

Again there is a TWO YEAR time skip involved. We don't know how those two years played out. Nor do we have any reason Shinn didn't think out his decision to join ZAFT's military. These are all just assumptions on your part because you want Shinn to be unstable. x.x He's not.

right...again no need to be snide I've yet to be catty in any way so please refrain from being so yourself....

I earned the right to be snide with that one considering it was the third time I had to mention it on this topic.

anyway despite the fact she didn't admit the story to be ill-conceived herself there's no dodging the fact it had its share of problems.

I never said it wasn't. That doesn't really alter the fact you tried to claim the writer said it was bad herself. When she never said anything of the sort.

Also I don't see how you can admit trouble writing new characters with old but admit no ill-effect that they may have had on the story.

Largely because I never said there wasn't an ill-affect on the story. I was just pointing out that you were wrong about what Morosawa said. And it was annoying considering that was the third time I mentioned it.

....no, not all.....really ::sigh:: I'm posting my genuine feelings regarding the character.

Well super, but it's pretty obvious feelings =/= actual character development which is what we were supposed to be dicussing.

I didn't take to him as you have or seemingly how the original author intended.

Of course it's not a matter of taking him in any paritcular way. It's objectively looking at the character and then coming to a conclusion about his development and personality. x.x The whole crazy as hell thing just isn't really supported in the animation. At least not until the final episode fighti with Athrun, but at that point no one in ZAFT was actually in character.

I'm posting my impressions of the character and why I didn't take to him. Why are we disputing personal opinion anyway?

We're not we were supposed to be talking about the character himself and his development, which isn't really an opinion if you're just talking about things fromt he series that fleshed out his character.

kakoishii

12-08-2008, 11:25 PM

We don't know when he joined the military. Shinn goes from 14 to 16. That's two full years of time that we have no clue what happened. Saying precisely when he decided to join ZAFT's military, or even suggesting it to be a quick decision whihc your quote seems to imply just doesn't fit.
two years, isn't a relatively long time, and from the point where the series starts out after that 2 years period it seems Shin has made quite a name for himself. He may not have been the glorified ace pilot he became later in the series quite yet, but his presentation gave off the impression he was pretty valued. I don't see that happening unless he joined fairly quickly after his family's death. Of course, it isn't stated and thus we'll never known, but speculation leads me to believe he couldn't have waited more than a few months before deciding to join.

I earned the right to be snide with that one considering it was the third time I had to mention it on this topic.
no...you didn't. This is a debate, points often get repeated in a debate, there's no reason to lay the snarkyness on, it really isn't that serious.

I never said it wasn't. That doesn't really alter the fact you tried to claim the writer said it was bad herself. When she never said anything of the sort.
I admitted my mistake, I never meant to put words anyone's mouth. End of story.

Largely because I never said there wasn't an ill-affect on the story. I was just pointing out that you were wrong about what Morosawa said. And it was annoying considering that was the third time I mentioned it.
When i said "you" I was referring to Morosawa not you as in "red zaku" I should have clarified.

Well super, but it's pretty obvious feelings =/= actual character development which is what we were supposed to be dicussing.
no, actually if you go back to the initial posts I made in this thread the post was about my impressions of the series and of how the characters were treated and my dislike of the main character shin. It wasn't really about character development. If that's what it evolved into then that's all well and good, but please know that was not what my original involvement in this thread was centered around.

Of course it's not a matter of taking him in any paritcular way. It's objectively looking at the character and then coming to a conclusion about his development and personality. x.x The whole crazy as hell thing just isn't really supported in the animation. At least not until the final episode fighti with Athrun, but at that point no one in ZAFT was actually in character.
you and I both know it's near impossible to "objectively" look at a character. Not even an author of a story can ever be truly objective with any of his or her characters. The whole experience of watching these characters is purely subjective for not just me but for everyone who watches this series. Some people will really like Shin while others not so much. I didn't like Shin's portrayal and that's just how it is.

We're not we were supposed to be talking about the character himself and his development, which isn't really an opinion if you're just talking about things fromt he series that fleshed out his character.
Again that isn't what I initially came into the thread to discuss at all. My initial post was anything but objective because I wasn't even attempting to take an object stance. It was completely subjective of my view of the series and the characters in it. I don't know where you got the idea that we were "supposed" to be talking about anything. Perhaps you have me confused with some other poster?

Red Zaku

12-09-2008, 01:09 AM

two years, isn't a relatively long time, and from the point where the series starts out after that 2 years period it seems Shin has made quite a name for himself.

He graduated top of his class. Everyone who graduates top of their class gets a red coat and instant recognition in the ZAFT military. To the point at which the series starts he was never anything more then a test pilot however.

He may not have been the glorified ace pilot he became later in the series quite yet, but his presentation gave off the impression he was pretty valued.

By Durandal, and chances are that's because Durandal knew him when he was int he Academy thanks to Rey graduating along side Shinn. That's why Durandal can speak highly of him, however, again there is no sign of Shinn being well known, or highly praised outside his immediate circle of friends.

I don't see that happening unless he joined fairly quickly after his family's death.

It didn't happen at all. The only people who seemed to know Shinn are people close to him, and they're the only ones who praise him.

Of course, it isn't stated and thus we'll never known, but speculation leads me to believe he couldn't have waited more than a few months before deciding to join.

x.x Actually some of this stuff is covered in Destiny Astray.

you and I both know it's near impossible to "objectively" look at a character.

All you have to do is distance yourself from the work which most people already are. Removing personal attachment to the story and characters is fairly easy when you form no bonds with them for the most par tot care either way. In my hatred of Kira and Lacus stems more from their fans mindlessly supporting their actions then dislike for the actual characters.

Not even an author of a story can ever be truly objective with any of his or her characters.

That's because it's the Author. They have a personal tie to the story. We as the viewers do not necessarily make those same connections to the characters, and some of us can be completely disinterested.

The whole experience of watching these characters is purely subjective for not just me but for everyone who watches this series.

Watching a character develop is not subjective. They do or they don't. What's subjective is the opinion the person forms after said development. That is where opinion comes in.

Some people will really like Shin while others not so much. I didn't like Shin's portrayal and that's just how it is.

x.x Of course you tried to say he was portrayed as off his rocker. That's obviously not accurate when you supporting evidence for the theory relies on Shinn reliving his past which he actually doesn't do as often as claimed. See, it's nbot subjetive when you can go back and take a look as see that's not actually the case.