I have lost faith in the Catholic Church, whos fault is it, mine or God's

[NeophyteNihilist]

I've been raised in a devotely Catholic family and I go to church every Sunday, however the more I think about the church and its teachings the less it makes sense and the more I find to disagree with. I am very logical in my thinking, and so many of the church's teachings seem illogical or closed minded to me. I lack the faith to accept what i believe to be flawed teachings. I'd love to be able to accept the church's teachings as truth, as nearly all the devotely religious people I know seem to be happy because of their beliefs and it would make the world a lot simpler, however I simply can't. If this inability to accept the docterines of the Catholic Church lead me to hell, whos fault is it, God's or mine? My lack of faith is not due to laziness or spite and I have no alterior motives for not believing, so I believe it would be God's fault. I would like to know people's opinions on this.

[akuma no omoigakenai saku]

I'd have to say it's the Catholic Church's fault.

[NeophyteNihilist]

I'd have to say it's the Catholic Church's fault.
True, but should I be held responsible for the church's short commings?

[Aldredian_Sahn]

Well, I don't know what the Catholic Church has taught you. I know it's a little different than the original teachings of Christ (that can be found in numerous churches). But on another hand, you are 16 years of age and it is absolutely normal for you to question God and faith and the Bible at that age. You're not dead yet and so there is no need to blame your questions on anyone at this point. You will go through years of searching and God will always be there with you whether you know it or not. You will find your answers you seek in time. Just keep questioning it and searching for answers. You may find the answers in a place you never dreamed of finding them.

[OtacontheOtaku]

Read Revelations, it says to actually go out of the Churchs because of how corrupt they would become. So yeah, keep your faith, ditch the Church.

[Left_Right]

Don't believe in anyother belief than the one you yourself create. Don't worry of the way of christ or some other god/God/Messiah, they can't do anything to you. They didn't do anything to me. Trust yourself in what the true nature of the reality and live by what you believe in, not what someone else taught you to believe in.

[NeophyteNihilist]

Don't believe in anyother belief than the one you yourself create. Don't worry of the way of christ or some other god/God/Messiah, they can't do anything to you. They didn't do anything to me. Trust yourself in what the true nature of the reality and live by what you believe in, not what someone else taught you to believe in.

:amuse I'm not really all that worried, but thanks for your concern. Hell just sounds like an excuse to get people to do what you say. I was just wondering if people thought it was possible that someone was never granted any faith or the ability to have any by God, and if so, would he/she go to heaven?

[Left_Right]

God is supposed to be like supreme thing that can see, hear, and know everything right? And God's supposed to be like all loving, helping, and nice and stuff.

IF God does exist and IF heaven does exist, and if someone was never granted any faith by God, then probably that person isn't good enough in God's eye and probably won't be allowed to go to heaven.

[kapsi]

Don't worry, that's normal. Children raised in "devotely Christian" families often turn against the Church.

[OtacontheOtaku]

God is supposed to be like supreme thing that can see, hear, and know everything right? And God's supposed to be like all loving, helping, and nice and stuff.

IF God does exist and IF heaven does exist, and if someone was never granted any faith by God, then probably that person isn't good enough in God's eye and probably won't be allowed to go to heaven.


This is the opinion typical of someone who doesn't understand what God is. God is not all loving, helping, nor is he nice and stuff. God IS all love, God IS all help, God is all "nice-ness" and God IS all "stuff". He doesn't love you because he IS the love that you feel, through his existence you are able to help and become nice and to be able to see, feel, and create "stuff". God isn't someone who holds your hand. You have to set out to do what's right, you can't have someone helping you through EVERYTHING.

[bigbird]

A lot of people have misconceptions that God is all lovey-dovey and nice and whatnot. But God is also a just God and he will punish those who wrong him, hence the existence of hell. And he's not there to hold your hand and make everything in life super easy for you. He's there to make opportunities, no matter how hard or painful, in your life happen so that your faith and love for God grows. Don't worry about it, neophyte. Forget about the teachings of the Catholic church for a while and focus on growing your realtionship with God.

And to answer your question about those that never get the chance to have faith in God, I'm not sure if they do go to hell or not. But I read somewhere that you can get out of hell if you truly repent for your sins and accept God and Jesus as your saviour.

[Left_Right]

Well I'll leave that discription of God and God's existence to you guys. Personally I don't believe in God so it's no problem whatsoever if I don't do what God (people who says who knows God) tell me to do. Oh well if ever this God tries to touch me or even looks at me in the wrong way, I'l kick God's balls so hard that God'll wish that God was never ever born/created.

[Tenten's missing lastname]

Neophyte, you sound very similar to me.
for 14 years I was raised catholic, catholic schooling, teen groups, etc.
then I realized how close minded they were,started questioning, gave up on questioning, then gave up on "god". Im just agnostic now.

o_O

[Zelistor]

This is the opinion typical of someone who doesn't understand what God is. God is not all loving, helping, nor is he nice and stuff. God IS all love, God IS all help, God is all "nice-ness" and God IS all "stuff". He doesn't love you because he IS the love that you feel, through his existence you are able to help and become nice and to be able to see, feel, and create "stuff". God isn't someone who holds your hand. You have to set out to do what's right, you can't have someone helping you through EVERYTHING.

A lot of people have misconceptions that God is all lovey-dovey and nice and whatnot. But God is also a just God and he will punish those who wrong him, hence the existence of hell. And he's not there to hold your hand and make everything in life super easy for you. He's there to make opportunities, no matter how hard or painful, in your life happen so that your faith and love for God grows. Don't worry about it, neophyte. Forget about the teachings of the Catholic church for a while and focus on growing your realtionship with God.

And to answer your question about those that never get the chance to have faith in God, I'm not sure if they do go to hell or not. But I read somewhere that you can get out of hell if you truly repent for your sins and accept God and Jesus as your saviour.

NeophyteNihilist, im an agnostic athiest. all i can say is these 2 posts beautifully contradict each other. what does this tell u/ me? that god, atleast the god created by society and culture is nothing more than a god created in each of our minds. god, was created for the soul purpose of answering all of lifes mysteries. any question that starts with "why" such as "why did my parents have to die" is answers with "b/c it was gods plan" or "b/c god wanted it so." ppl develop a god in their minds that give them hope when theyre down God IS all love, God IS all help, God is all "nice-ness" and God IS all "stuff" and keep them in line when theyre happy. he will punish those who wrong him, hence the existence of hell. however, thats why i dont believe in this exact religoous god. i am able to give myself hope when im down and keep myself in line when im happy. i am also able to rationally say that the reason anything happens in life "a divorce in the family" was simply b/c it happened (thru cause and effect or whatever) the relgious god is totally useless to me. however b/c i am open minded, i do accept the possibility of sum higher being, i just simply dont accept any religous gods. thats why i think buddhism is so great. it focuses on u being a good person without the creation of sum false hope or authority.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

NeophyteNihilist, im an agnostic athiest.
Oh that's so great, you contradicted yourself by both saying you absoluetly don't believe in God and that there might be a chance possiblity of His very existence, but you don't know. *sarcasm* I see what you mean though from your later writing, but your title just isn't politically correct. Although, religion is from God. I don't think "a god" really exists outside a "religious" belief system. It forms the definition of a religion.

ppl develop a god in their minds that give them hope when theyre down and keep them in line when theyre happy.
more *sarcasm* (because I'm hot and irrititable right now, sar.) You just keep thinking that, okay. *seriousness* Actually a lot of people lose their faith in God when something bad happens. They question His very existence over a bad incident, so to many it wouldn't be to say that they "created" Him to feel better, because in many cases, people choose to hate Him when bad things happen.

[Zelistor]

what i meant by agnostic athiest is im an agnostic leaning towards athiesm. i dont no if it makes sense but my overall stance is i dont believe in any religous gods but i do accept the possibility of a "higher being" (i dont no what i exactly mean by that but w/e)

also its true many ppl turn away from god when sumthing bad in their lives happens but id think just as equally amount of ppl turn towards god when sumthing bad happens. i dont no anything bout statistics thou

[tuggumkee]

How can you judge God through the catholic church? That's one of the reasons why i dislike the catholic church, it has so much "tradition". How can you judge God from how people act? Basically most people in the world are crap. So judging God based on the people who call themselves Christian isn't really justified.

[explicitkarma]

Do what you wish. But personally, I wouldn't let the rest of humanity, and their inclination towards corrpution, interfere with my views on religion, my relationship with God, ect...

I believe it's obviously the church's falut for not being able to keep you to believe their view. However, there is nothing wrong with that. Your views are yours and yours alone.

[blacklusterseph004]

It's not God's fault, and I would risk it to say that it is only partially your fault. The church is compared to a body for good reason. If you were losing faith, your church and fellow christians should have made the effort to help you. I don't really want to criticise you because I don't know you, but perhaps you should have tried attending other churches to help fill in the gaps. I shouldn't actually use that tense, because you can still do that. Like Aldredian_Sahn said, you have to keep looking, don't give up on God just because you couldn't find the answers in one place.

I think that everyone has been given the ability to have faith, some more than others though. People not getting the chance to have faith is not God's fault, but the fault of christians. It is afterall the task of the church to deliver the gospel. If anyone is lost because they never heard the gospel, then it is most likely the christians that will have some explaining to do.

[shizuru]

I'm not sure is the catholic church the extremist when it comes to what the bible says? I'm not sure... but I dont think its gods fault. It could be what you said in the opening paragraph
"I am very logical in my thinking, and so many of the church's teachings seem illogical or closed minded to me. I lack the faith to accept what i believe to be flawed teachings."
It could be your logic... but i would know ^_^;; just ignor me lolol

[Aldredian_Sahn]

I am very logical in my thinking, and so many of the church's teachings seem illogical or closed minded to me. I lack the faith to accept what i believe to be flawed teachings."
Now it's time for you to take your logical thinking and really press hard into the issues that don't make sense. Don't stop looking into them just because they don't seem to make sense. If you really want to know the truth of Chistianity, you're going to have to search for it if you're not getting it from your current church. Look other places, ask people why they believe what they believe (how in depth it is or is it shallow).

Or you could just let the whole thing go. I guarentee that if you have the heart for God (even if you don't think you do), He will find you, but it may take years, decades for this to happen.

Or you can ask Jesus to come into your life, but then it has to be faith based and you can't question everything that happens, because you can always make "logical" excuses for why something happened, although you might be missing the point. Just go look.

[tootaa18]

i think the most important thing is asking yourself: "do i believe in God?"

if you truley believe that there is a God outhere who will judge for your actions in life and in control of your destiny then the next step will be easy...

i don`t know about the church cuz i`m not christian but i think if you doubt the teachings of your religion you should seek other religions and study them very will and then deside which one you would like to join

and i agree with anyone who says that God is not here to hold your hand and guid you through your life, your life is like a whole huge test no one is gonna do the test for you and no one will give you the right answers. it`s you who should seek answers and deside what is right and what is wrong.

back to your question....

i don`t think that it`s God`s fault cuz as i said before, God is not gonna guid us to the right path, i mean what`s the point of my life if all the answers were given to me from the start? and what`s the point of heaven and hell if God guided all the people in the world to the right path??? :huh

i think the church has a part of the responsiblity for your lost faith, it should have given you answers to your qustions and doubts.

personally, i think you hold most of the responsibilty "not fault" for your doubts in your faith

we all make mistakes but we shouldn`t keep repeating the same mistake if we feel that what we are doing is wrong.

sorry for the long post and the bad english and i hope my post was helpful :amuse

[DragonHeart52]

As Socrates said, an unexamined life is not worth living.

You're examining and questioning why you believe and act as you do. I don't see anything here that would need a reason to blame anyone/anything unless you want to blame the processes of emotional and mental maturation.

It's something that happens to the best of us.

[Jef88]

its not youre fault you found a mistake in the story thats about jezus thats what makes you lose youre faith dont take religion serieus some people do (notthing against those people :wink ) follow what youre heart or mind thinks about it :amuse dont think about it as a problem (god still loves you :P i hope)

[Elsundownbastard]

Neither. It's the sub admin's fault or the preists. Irresponsible upkeep.

[Kevinthewiseone]

if you still belive in Cathlosim then i think it is the churches fault and not yours in any way or fashion

[Scorpio3.14]

People have to realize that God exists outside of organized religion. I myself rarely attend a Church but am a devout Christian and am very secure in my religion. Just because the Chatholic Church you attend is not working for you, dont give up on religion entirely. I see that way to often. People have a bad experience with one church and they loose their faith entirely.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

People have to realize that God exists outside of organized religion. I myself rarely attend a Church but am a devout Christian and am very secure in my religion. Just because the Chatholic Church you attend is not working for you, dont give up on religion entirely. I see that way to often. People have a bad experience with one church and they loose their faith entirely.
That's right and the Christian church is actually the people who follow Christ. Sometimes though when we have an institution we get too caught up in the doctrine part of it and we forget were we all come from. All those people out there in all those different churches are actually brothers and sisters of the same, although some have been misled, but fortunately the truth lies within the Bible. It all goes back to the Bible. It doesn't hurt to find other Christians in other places. You'll find an assortment of believers, especially those who do not focus so much on the organized part of the religion, but instead really have the Holy Spirit working inside of them, like my friend Marshall. It's good to talk to people and ask a lot of questions. Bible studies are good for that too!

[Devilish Angel]

Eh. Just believe in what you want to believe in. I believe in God but not all that "If you don't believe in him but do good for others than you will go to Hell."

I find that stupid. As long as you do good than you should be allowed to go to Heaven. I'll be damned if some alchoholic wife beater goes to Heaven because he believes in God but a homosexual man or woman who helps the poor burns in Hell.

Nuh uh. Not going to accept that.

[tootaa18]

I find that stupid. As long as you do good than you should be allowed to go to Heaven. I'll be damned if some alchoholic wife beater goes to Heaven because he believes in God but a homosexual man or woman who helps the poor burns in Hell.

Nuh uh. Not going to accept that.

i don`t know about the non believers

but in my religion you would still be punished for your sins even if you are a true follower of the religion

and after you get punished for your sins you can go to heaven ^^

[Vetrean]

Eh. Just believe in what you want to believe in. I believe in God but not all that "If you don't believe in him but do good for others than you will go to Hell."

I find that stupid. As long as you do good than you should be allowed to go to Heaven. I'll be damned if some alchoholic wife beater goes to Heaven because he believes in God but a homosexual man or woman who helps the poor burns in Hell.

Nuh uh. Not going to accept that.

It's not enough to believe that God exists, you have to repent of your sins, and take Christ as your saviour. It's not like an insurance policy, where as soon as you're baptized, you're secure for life. You HAVE to repent of your sins, you have to feel sorry for them, etc. etc. Otherwise, you almost fit into the category of a false-Christian.

And it's not a question of homosexuality or not. Jesus Christ was sent from Heaven to die for ALL the sins of ALL people. As long as he accepts Jesus as his Saviour, he'll be fine. Well, I think. I'm a bit fuzzy on the sexuality issue concerning Christianity, 'cuz...I'm twelve.

Back to the subject. It would most likely be either your fault or the church's fault. Depending on what you disagree with, anyway.

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Try out a different kind of church, and see if it makes more sense to you. Most people in a church should be more than happy to help you find an answer.

That's my experience with people from my churches, anyway.

[S14girl]

Don't worry, that's normal. Children raised in "devotely Christian" families often turn against the Church.
Exactly,but you mostly have toblame the church most have become corrupted, some people change religion I know some people who converted to buddhaism

[Devilish Angel]

It's not enough to believe that God exists, you have to repent of your sins, and take Christ as your saviour. It's not like an insurance policy, where as soon as you're baptized, you're secure for life. You HAVE to repent of your sins, you have to feel sorry for them, etc. etc. Otherwise, you almost fit into the category of a false-Christian.

And it's not a question of homosexuality or not. Jesus Christ was sent from Heaven to die for ALL the sins of ALL people. As long as he accepts Jesus as his Saviour, he'll be fine. Well, I think. I'm a bit fuzzy on the sexuality issue concerning Christianity, 'cuz...I'm twelve.

Yeah, I agree on the having to repent. I just remember my uncle telling me as long as you believe in God you'll go Heaven. I had the strongest urge to scream bullshit in his face.

Anyway, about the sexuality thing you're 'supposedly' going to Hell if you're gay. Atleast in the Catholic churches opinion. I remember reading some passage from the bible about these men wanting to rape two angels I think but the man keeping them under his house said that it was wrong and to instead rape his daughter. And I was like wtf, it's okay to rape a girl instead if you were going to rape a boy first? That got on my nerves. (By the way not too sure if it was his daughter but it was some girl from his house.)

[Limitles Shadow]

If you lose faith in the Church because you have found inconsistancies within their teaching, you have no one to blame except your intelligence. Being too smart for the Church is one of the biggest problems the Church has in retaining what faith in people it still has. The King James Bible has some contradictory laws and actions committed and ordained by "God". There are more closely translated (and complete) Bibles out there if you search for them. The KJ version of the Bible has had many parts cut out and/or editted according to numerous credible sources. The reason for the edits is debatable but the editting of the bible is not (one can always fall back upon translation issues to be the reason for editing, but there are some things that are worth noting such as the famous 47 verse/Shakespere's age when he editted the bible line - when Shakespeare was 47 he helped edit the King James version of the bible and managed to insert "spear" into the 47th verse of some chapter which I have forgotten, it is probably available to find on the net).

It is much easier to take the bible as a book of moral guidelines than it is to swallow as a book which gives a history.. especially since it is well known where and when the Bible was produced as a whole work.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

Anyway, about the sexuality thing you're 'supposedly' going to Hell if you're gay. Atleast in the Catholic churches opinion.:toliet Sorry, I have quirks about the Catholic church.

I remember reading some passage from the bible about these men wanting to rape two angels I think but the man keeping them under his house said that it was wrong and to instead rape his daughter. And I was like wtf, it's okay to rape a girl instead if you were going to rape a boy first? That got on my nerves. (By the way not too sure if it was his daughter but it was some girl from his house.)
I still have more learning to do on this story, but it was because these two men were angels that the man of the house was not going to give them away to the sinful masses. He was willing to sacrifice his two daughters for the sake of these angels sent by God; that's how important they were to him.

[imchemist]

You will find your faith again. If you seek the truth, you will find it. First, you should not blame others for your downfall. Why are you angry for the things you chose for yourself?

[OtacontheOtaku]

I find that there's an incredibly huge misunderstanding of who Chrisitans and Catholics actually worship, a misconception not even understood by the vast majority of Catholics and Christians. This misconception stems from thinking that "God" is Yaweh of the Old Testament, this is not the God whom Christians and Catholics worship, but rather this is the Yaweh or Jehovah worshipped by Jews and Muslims. Christians and Catholics have a difference when it comes to prayer to Saints and the answering to the Church and such, but we share the view that Jesus is the son of the true God, who ISN'T the God of the Old Testament as said by Jesus himself, though Jesus is plagued by misconceptions about himself as well... ^_^; .

A fact that's completely unknown by the vast majority of the public in general is where the Bible came from. How did the book get compiled? Where did the books originate? The answer to these questions are actually quite simple, the books came from biblical scribes who were recording the history from the place where civilization started, ancient Sumeria. Scholars have managed to locate many of the tablets that contain the ancient biblical accounts from which the Torah, the Old Testament, and the Haggadah (the well-spring of Jewish oral tradition) originate. These tablets describe the origin of man in a similar way to the Old Testament and Torah (as do other middle eastern, Chinese, and many other secular ancient sources) but are much more clear when it comes to the story of the first man. I should point out that the name for God in the Old Testament in ancient Hebrew is "Elohim", a borrowed Semitic term deriving from ancient Sumerian, that is commonly translated as "God", but this is incredibly innacurate, "Elohim" is plural meaning Gods in that translation. However, that's not even accurate itself, as "Elohim" in it's most accurate translation means "Loft Ones", not "Gods".

In any case, in our Biblical accounts it speaks about how these "Lofty Ones" saw there was no one to till the Earth and thus said, " Let US create Man in OUR image". Now, using the incorrect translation of God this doesn't make much sense, but using the correct translation of "Lofty Ones" this makes perfect sense. These "Lofty Ones" came and saw the Earth had no one to work it and thus created a being in their image to do just that. Still, this is very unclear, thus we must return to the source from which these stories are derived... Ancient Sumeria.

I'm gonna take a break real quick and talk about the lost and non-included Books of the Old Testament. There are many missing books from the Old Testament such as the Book of Jashar mentioned in Joshua 10:13, the Book of the Wars of Yaweh mentioned in Numbers 21:14, The Book of the Story of Adam mentioned in Genesis 5:1, The Book of Yaweh mentioned in Isaiah 34:16, as well as books mentioned in passing such as the Book of the Acts of Solomon referred to in 1 Kings 11:41, the Chronicle of the Kings of Judah, the Chronicle of the Kings of Israel mentioned in 1 Kings 14, 15, 22 and 14, 15, 16 respectively, as well as the Book of Genealogy and Chronicles of the Sons of Levi, even in the Dead Sea Scrolls there is a reference to the Book of Lamech, the antedilluvian patriarch. There is also an abundance of literature written after the Bible was first cannonized, of which was compiled under the general term "Pseudepigrapha", within this includes the Book of Jubilees, the three books of Enoch, the books of Ezra, the books of Baruch, apocolyptic literature of the patriarchs, lost Judeo-Hellenistic works, and many expansions on the works of the Old Testament.

In the accounts on the ancient Sumerian tablets is a poem, the ancient God "An" came upon the Earth with his children and they took their homes on the Earth. Eventually, they grew tired of working on the Earth and they demanded there be a mule to work in their places. Thus, An commanded his son and daughter Enki and Abzu to create a suitable replacement to work the Earth. With many failures they finally succeeded by combining the "God source" with mammals on the Earth, this created the being "Adapa" who resided in what's called interestingly enough, the Garden of Life or "ED-IN".

This is the earliest recorded account of the creation of man, predating all other civilization's accounts, and predating the Bible by between 4200-5200 years. Plugged into the Biblical account, we can establish that the original "Lofty Ones" came to Earth and resided here, there they worked on the Earth but became tired and aggrevated and demanded that a substitute be created, thus two genetic engineers took the "Clay of the Earth" otherwise known as early Neanderthal man and combined it with their own genetics or "God force". Thus the original man was created and placed within the Garden of Eden. The description of these ancient "Elohim" is constantly accounted as "Serpent-like" arriving in their Shamash, improperly translated as sky-chariots, as the correct translation alludes to "spacecraft". As such, the first man would not have been Homo-sapiens, but rather a Homo-saurus. A reptilian looking form. This view is reinforced by the Haggadah which states that the bodies of Adam and Eve "had been overlaid with a horny skin," and moreover, of Adam it was said that "it was as bright as daylight and covered his body like a luminous garment." Pretty thorough of a shiny reptile-like hide isn't it? This is why clothes were not needed within the Garden. It's also made clear in Genesis that Adam did not sweat, he was told, "by the sweat of your face shall you earn your bread." Adam didn't sweat because sweating is characteristic of mammals, not reptiles. It's also interesting to note, that while in the Garden that Adam and Eve did not propogate while in the Garden. The Fall of Man the Bible speaks about is the account of how man gained the ability to reproduce.

Before I address the Fall of Man, I want to address the issue of Eve's creation. There is a multitude of issues concerning both who came first in the Garden of Eden and whether Eve was created from a rib or "TI" or not. The problem being that Eve was almost definitely not created from his rib, as this was probobly a distortion to assert male dominince into the original text. In the Gnostic view of the creation of Adam, the original occupant of the garden was Sophia who gave the "breath of life" to Adam and then provided her daughter Zoe as a wife to Adam. In the early rabbinical comments on the Torah, as they are found in the Midrash (inquiry into the original scripture), the original denizen of Eden was Lilith, and Adam was created to be her mate. She rejected Adam mainly because she would not assume a subordinate or recumben position in sexual intercourse. She left the Garden of Eden and only then was Eve created as a mate. However, the most interesting being in the Genesis Rabbah, a Midrash account on the Book of Genesis, compiled in the Fifth Century in Palestine, where Eve was created from Adam's tail, which was cut off leaving a useless coccyx. Thus Adam lost his reptilian tail as a result of the Fall. Perhaps the stump was left as a reminder to man of his reptilian by a facetious god. Ultimately, Sumerian and other ancient sources emphasize the importance of the "mother of all living" as the symbol of fertility, which of course is completely missing from Genesis, most likely a deliberate act just to assert male dominance. Anyway... with that little bit hopefully taking on a slight air of clarity, I'll move on to the fall of man.

I know this has been quite a bit to read, but I'm working up to the point about the Old Testament God Yaweh as to the true identity of Yaweh, after I discuss the Fall of Man, we'll go to Moses to extend my point, in the meantime, think to yourself why a being of supreme omnipotence had to search the Garden for Adam and Eve and how that being could take strolls through it, however, what about the "Lofty Ones".

[OtacontheOtaku]

The Fall of Man is also very unclear on everything that went on. In the Biblical accounts, the serpent is said to have tempted Eve who then gave Adam the fruit, but again, this was almost definitely just another attempt to establish male dominence. Since Adam and Eve had their reptilian appearance, they could not reproduce, a suitable workforce was unable to be created, so Enki decided to modify the creatures so they could reproduce. The process by which they were modified has never been described, instead it's referred to as the "Fall of Man" when he lost his "Cloud of Glory", the name given to the reptilian hide. However, beyond the actual "Fall of Man", it's unclear on what actually happened. There's numerous accounts in ancient sources saying the serpent was not actually a serpant, but walked on two legs. The serpent is usually not called Enki either, as the Haggadah states that the serpent wasn't merely condemned to slither on it's stomach, it had it's hands/arms and feet/legs hacked off to accomplish this (feet/legs and hands/arms represent variations in sources outside the Haggadah). Something that definitely would not happen to a son of An. In any case, after losing the "Cloud of Glory" man became aware... but it's mitakenly called "knowledge" as the proper tranlation of the Hebrew stem YD means not only "to know" but also "to experience". Specifically when applied to connubial relations, mean "to know sexually". "To know" Biblically, is to know sexually, as in sexual intercourse. This of course meaning man gained the knowledge to have sex during his fall, when he because more mammal than reptilian. It is recorded as they were exiled from the garden, the generous deity who had given them life clothed them, but the Haggadah reveals it was clothing sloughed off by the serpent.

So, most noticeably up to this point, we've covered the evolutionary gap between Neanderthal-man and Cro-Magnum man, we've allocated a purpose for mankind's creation, and we've explained mankind's roots, as well as given some form to the creators. Now, on to the covering of the mystery that is the God of the Old Testament.

The terminology used to refer to God is very unusual within the Bible, Torah, etc. Starting out as referring to him as "El" and "Elohim", then quickly changing to El-Shaddai, until ultimately settling on his final name "Yahweh". According to Exodus 6:3 the appellation Yaweh did not come into use until the time of Moses, as Moses was told by the deity that "I am Yahweh, I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as El-Shaddai, but I did not make myself known to them by my name Yahweh." Scholars agree however, that the name Yahweh was a later addition by priestly scribes. The tetragram YHWH or Yahweh became the distinctive personal name for the god of Israel and is used most frequently throughout the Old Testament to represent the diety. Yahweh was also known as El-Shaddai, as previously mentioned. The Hebrew root shaded, from which it is supposed to be derived, means "to overpower", "to treat with violence", or "to lay waste". These meanings give the deity a fearful character, that of devastator or destroyer. This is partly why the god of the Hebrews is known as an uncompromising and vindictive God. The Hittite shadu, or mountain can also be connected linguitically to the term. It's because the fact the Hebrews have a long history with the Hittites, as they had intermarried. Now, the Hebrews, as all the surrounding cultures did, came out of a pantheon of plural gods, and this is where the First Commandment comes in. In Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments given to Moses start with "You shall have no other god before Me," as stated in the King James version of the Bible, and in the Torah it appears as "You shall have no other god beside Me." In either case, it's unusual how it accentuates that last phrase. This phrase has been the foundation of the monotheistic base of the Judeo-Christian religions. This statement however, does not imply one god, but quite the opposite, it implies there are many Gods. If the phrase was meant to be "you shall have no other gods," why not just stop right there and not add the phrase "before me". The emphasis here clearly denotes there were other Gods in the pantheon, and that Yahweh was declaring that he was the superior God over the entire pantheon.

In observing the Pentateuch, it can be seen that there were other Gods in the Hebrew pantheon. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he saw the Hebrews worshipping a golden calf (a bull according to other sources) wich was a symbol of Enlil, the El (Enlil) of Palestine and Syria and meant that the people were not worshipping "Yahweh" or "Adad", but "El" or "Enlil" one of the other Gods in the Hebrew pantheon. "Adad" of course being another God in the same pantheon, who constantly struggled with "Enlil" for power. Adad sought to extend his influence through the worship of the Hebrews, who's roots lied with the Hittities. As a method of once again gaining influence, Adad appropiated the symbol of the bull from Enlil. The Hittite influence and origin of Adad as Yaweh comes from when Yaweh reminds the prophet in the Book of Ezekial (16: 1-3) that:

"Your origin and your birth was in the land of
the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite,
your mother a Hittite."

The Hittite influence could be seen in how David's Chief General was a Hittie as well as several of Solomon's wives. Abraham and Melchizedek even had a dispute over allegiance to Yaweh and El-Elyon (another name for Enlil). The names of Adad and Enlil were concealed because it was believed by early priests that the names of the Gods could be used to hold power over them, precisely why only descrpitive terms of so many ancient gods are used, and why so many of their true names are unknown. It's also described in the Old Testament that Adad had a consort, and that was Astarte, better known as Ishtar within the pantheon. Eventually, Enlil's presence weakened and Baal became the dominent god of the region, otherwise known as "Baal-Adad", with Astarte being the mother-goddess. The worship of the "Mother-Goddess" Astarte was constantly under attack of the subsequent kings of Judah. King Hezekiah completely abolished the worship of her, and any sign of her being Yahweh's consort has been completely irradicated from the Old Testament, however, archaeological evidence states much to the contrary. In a cave the near the Sini, it was found inscribed on the wall: "I bless you by Yahweh of Sumaria and by his Asherah."

It's amazing how so few people know the origin of Yahweh, despite Jesus denouncing him by saying,"The God of the Old Testament is not my Father." Precisely where the theological dispute comes in between Christians and Catholics, as well as the Jews. The God worshipped within the Hebrew religion Yahweh (also known as Jehovah and Baal) of Judeaism is the ancient Hittite god Adad, this cannot be debunked as it's supported by a countless amount of archaeolgical evidence both biblical and secular. The God worshipped by the majority of Catholics and Christians however, is still Adad, very few realize Jesus was not Adad's son, he was as far as I can surmise, the summation of all the energy of existence. A living manifestation of the living energy of the Universe, precisely who his Father is. This of course I'm not quite sure of yet. I've finished my research of the first 8000 years of mankind's existence, and now I'm up to the days Jesus. I'll post something on Him when I get the chance, but I'm only so far into that research.

Sources:
R.A. Boulay's incredible research contained within the book Flying Serpents and Dragons: The Story of Mankind's Reptilian Past which has a Bibliography from over 100 secular and religous texts. If my post intrigues you, I HIGHLY recommend this book.


Post was long, two parts ^_^

[OtacontheOtaku]

If you lose faith in the Church because you have found inconsistancies within their teaching, you have no one to blame except your intelligence. Being too smart for the Church is one of the biggest problems the Church has in retaining what faith in people it still has. The King James Bible has some contradictory laws and actions committed and ordained by "God". There are more closely translated (and complete) Bibles out there if you search for them. The KJ version of the Bible has had many parts cut out and/or editted according to numerous credible sources. The reason for the edits is debatable but the editting of the bible is not (one can always fall back upon translation issues to be the reason for editing, but there are some things that are worth noting such as the famous 47 verse/Shakespere's age when he editted the bible line - when Shakespeare was 47 he helped edit the King James version of the bible and managed to insert "spear" into the 47th verse of some chapter which I have forgotten, it is probably available to find on the net).

It is much easier to take the bible as a book of moral guidelines than it is to swallow as a book which gives a history.. especially since it is well known where and when the Bible was produced as a whole work.


As per reference to my original post, the bible is incredibly incomplete, missing well over a dozen books from the Old Testament alone, along with being horribly misinterpreted, due to the message the proper translation conveys. The Old Testament when read over, reads as a broken book of history, how to live as long as possible, and specifically within Levitacus a cook book. The Old Testament requires an immense amount of research to begin to grasp the truth of what happened, and then once into the New Testament, which pretty much negates the entire teachings of the Old Testament for gentiles and hebrews alike.

sry for double/triple post :tem

[princesstaco]

My first instinct here would be to berate you for trying to pass the blame for your lack of faith onto God.

But you are thinking for yourself! I personally think that blindly following a religion soley from fear of divine retribution is a lot worse that questioning God. Keep questioning religion! It's what allows you to come to terms with what you actually do belive in.

I hope you find what you're looking for! :)

[Miss CCV]

I had thoughts like you, since my parents (especially my mother) is somewhat devoutly Catholic. I tend to have a skeptical mind, and when I analyzed the Catholic religion, I started to disagree with its close-minded teachings and scriptures. I'm more of a free-willed person. When I told my mother that I stopped believing in God (mainly because I was going through difficult times), she got extremely disappointed and angry. Since then, I started to regain my faith through my mother's subtle coaxing. I'm not as religious as her though...

As for who is at fault, I'm not too sure on that. It's not your fault that you realized that Catholism has its quirks, and it's not God's fault for "creating" a religion that's considered to have quirks. But I bet if a devout Catholic read this, they would definitely blame you for turning your back on God. I find that quite ignorant. After all, people have brains and they can think any way they want to.

[Fear The Mullet]

Eh. Just believe in what you want to believe in. I believe in God but not all that "If you don't believe in him but do good for others than you will go to Hell."

I find that stupid. As long as you do good than you should be allowed to go to Heaven. I'll be damned if some alchoholic wife beater goes to Heaven because he believes in God but a homosexual man or woman who helps the poor burns in Hell.

Nuh uh. Not going to accept that.

Where did you get this poorly twisted and misconstrued view of Christianity, or Catholocism?


PLease, if you are mis-informed, get some facts straight. Go ask a preist how it works. The wife beater who believes in God, is a hypocrite, and he'll get his punishment. The homosexual will get his reward.

[OtacontheOtaku]

Where did you get this poorly twisted and misconstrued view of Christianity, or Catholocism?


PLease, if you are mis-informed, get some facts straight. Go ask a preist how it works. The wife beater who believes in God, is a hypocrite, and he'll get his punishment. The homosexual will get his reward.


According to the doctrines of most churches, what he said was actually correct. However, according to the CORRECT doctrine, the one preached by Jesus, you're the one who is correct mullet. Jesus surrounded himself with people society had cast off and he helped them become better people, more comfortable with who they were, and more beneficial to society. That's the biggest thing about Christianity and Catholicism that's been irradicated from people who take the fucking Old Testament without any kind of research into it. Christianity is about LOVE, it's not about condemning anyone. The only people you can curse are those who are NOT spreading love, but fanning the flames of hatred like so many sick and disgusting churches do.

[Aldredian_Sahn]

According to the doctrines of most churches, what he said was actually correct. However, according to the CORRECT doctrine, the one preached by Jesus, you're the one who is correct mullet. Jesus surrounded himself with people society had cast off and he helped them become better people, more comfortable with who they were, and more beneficial to society. That's the biggest thing about Christianity and Catholicism that's been irradicated from people who take the fucking Old Testament without any kind of research into it. Christianity is about LOVE, it's not about condemning anyone. The only people you can curse are those who are NOT spreading love, but fanning the flames of hatred like so many sick and disgusting churches do.
There are 3 kinds of people when it comes to this:

1) Those that do not believe and they do not know Jesus
2) Those that do believe and do know Jesus
3) Those that think they believe, but do not know Jesus

[Fear The Mullet]

According to the doctrines of most churches, what he said was actually correct. However, according to the CORRECT doctrine, the one preached by Jesus, you're the one who is correct mullet. Jesus surrounded himself with people society had cast off and he helped them become better people, more comfortable with who they were, and more beneficial to society. That's the biggest thing about Christianity and Catholicism that's been irradicated from people who take the fucking Old Testament without any kind of research into it. Christianity is about LOVE, it's not about condemning anyone. The only people you can curse are those who are NOT spreading love, but fanning the flames of hatred like so many sick and disgusting churches do.


Actually I am correct in Both sences. It is in the Catholic doctorine, that if you sin, and confess, and sin and confess, without remorse, and without taking steps to rectify the situation, you are in "disfavor" in gods eyes. Do not let your misconceptions fool you, our priest explained this to me once, very well, because I asked him out of interest when I myself had some doubts. If you sin, and have no regret, and sin again, thinking you can jsut go and confess and be free of it, you aren't fooling yourself, and you certainly aren't fooling God. By Catholic teaching, this wife-beater shall get a punishment because he has no remorse.

[NeophyteNihilist]

You people have to realize I disagree with some of the church's most basic docterines. Heck, I don't even believe Jesus was God's son or equal to God. He's an incredibly enlightened man who has done great good through out history except when his teachings not been mutilated in the middle ages. However, there is not much difference between him and all the other prophets of any religion. This is not me merely being upset with the Catholic churches quirks. 90% of the old testement disgusts me and so does most of the New Testement.

[Anthriel]

90% of the old testement disgusts me and so does most of the New Testement.
Only christian fanatics think that the bible still fits perfectly into our time.
However, there are some general statements that still apply to our life.

It's important to note that not all christians are conservative fanatics (though I hear you have a lot of them over there in America :amuse), there are people that combine their belief with modern views on life. I would call them modern christians, and I get along with them very well, even though I'm an atheist.
I sometimes ridicule the current politics of the church together with them. :amuse

/e: Whew, should have read more carefully. Well, yeah, believing that Jesus is God's son is basically the basis of christianity, the thing which sets it apart from judaism.
Well, in that case you should probably believe in your very own, personal religion.

[Jones]

neither, the whole concept of religion is going down the toilet because of the catholic church and other assorted religions. mostly the extremists in those assorted religions. if there is a god he should have the rapture soon to save as many believers as he can.

[The Sandwich Prince]

I read through the entire post before deciding on an answer (And just to grasp the scope of what others said) and I personally don't think you're at fault. As Sahn said you're a teenager (Like me) and it's perfectly fine for you to question things, and I don't think you're anywhere near being at fault. I've got my opinions of religion as a whole, but I'd rather not derail the thread too much. I'd like to say this though.

If you still find that you believe in Christianity (Even in the slightest) you might want to explore other aspects of it. I'm not saying go out and join other churches, but you might want to research things just for clarification. I'm under the impression that you don't want that though so feel free to ignore this part.

Explore your feelings and thoughts about these things though. I mean, really.. don't feel as if you have to believe in something or that what you did is wrong. Christianity, and other religions, are shown the way they've been introduced (Whether it be by man to control the masses or higher powers) and aren't custom-tailored to those of us who may step outside of the realm of religion. I'm not saying they're wrong (aside from the hypocrites) since through their beliefs they make the world a decent place to be in at times, but you just have to accept that you're different and hopefully they will too.

I'd just continue searching and live life for you. Like I tell my friends (Christian or not) it's best you just live your life and get yourself in a place you want to be in whether it be completing college, tradeschool, or whatever, and things will come together in a good way. You're still young and rather than stress over this you should do your thing in the world. Even if you don't believe in any religion just take what you've learned and use it how you will. I stopped going to church due to hypocricy in my church and others, but I continue to live my life in a good way, and that's what it should be all about. Christianity isn't an organization, but a way of life and whether you believe or not you can improve through it's basics.

[The Sandwich Prince]

neither, the whole concept of religion is going down the toilet because of the catholic church and other assorted religions. mostly the extremists in those assorted religions. if there is a god he should have the rapture soon to save as many believers as he can.
I believe this too. I'm not deep into religion given my age and what has happened in my church, but I think if there is a god the rapture should come soon. Whether I go to Heaven or Hell doesn't matter to me because I know I've lived my life in a positive manner when I was in the church and when I left. My faith might've swayed, but you take things in stride and hope for the best. Who knows.. might find a church later in life.

I'm really moved after reading everything people said though. I wish everyone was more open-minded towards these things and accepted people for who they were. Bleh.. you guys are going to make me find religion again in hopes for the horrible people in the world. It's just awful that you have non-Christians acting more Christ-like toward others than you do people in the church.

[Haik]

90% of the old testement disgusts me and so does most of the New Testement.

Why does it disgust you? What parts exactly? I'm really intrested why your saying that. Maybe if you can give me the parts you hate or don't like and you think it's bullshit... Maybe then I can understand you better though. Because 90% is a bit to much :) don't you think.

[Eden Prime]

I have lost faith in the Catholic Church, whos fault is it, mine or God's

It's not a fault. Humans have always questioned their world, and their origination, and what information they have been given. The fact that you lost faith in that religion isn't a fault. It's an exploration of space.

[EternalHatred]

What you believe in is what you believe in (obviously XD).
But of course, if you choose going to church and find it not-worthy of believing, then believe in your own God. With your logic or something, believe in what you want to instead of following what religion tells you to believe.

[NeophyteNihilist]

Why does it disgust you? What parts exactly? I'm really intrested why your saying that. Maybe if you can give me the parts you hate or don't like and you think it's bullshit... Maybe then I can understand you better though. Because 90% is a bit to much :) don't you think.
Maybe for the New testiment 90% is a bit much, but not for the old testiment. I had to read most of it in scriptures class and I refuse to worship the God that is portrayed by them. Basically, he orders the Isrealites around as they reak havoc on all nearby nations. At one point he tells the Isrealites to kill everyone in the cities they conquer, including children and elderly people and punishes them severly when they don't do it. For a kind and just God he sure loses his temper a lot over pointless things. Even the parts that don't involve God smiting people are fairly worthless. There are so many strange and pointless laws in the torah. Some of the stories of the heros, judges, and kings are entertaining, but they certainly aren't what I'd like to base my religion off. The prophets just ramble on, and half the time aren't even right in there predictions. Women and children are treated like scum. Slavery is condoned. I could go on and on...

The new testement is quite a bit better, but still tends to be chauvanistic. Most of the letters are based off the assumption that the second coming was going to be a few months after Jesus ascended, so a lot of the episals have kind of lost their meaning. Revelatons is just rediculous for the most part...

[Nerwyn]

You will go through years of searching and God will always be there with you whether you know it or not. You will find your answers you seek in time. Just keep questioning it and searching for answers. You may find the answers in a place you never dreamed of finding them.

Good point :)

Since logical arguements appeal to you, NeophyteNihilist, (as they do me) try reading C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". The entire book is basically a logical arguement for Christianity. I highly recommend it. :)

[Shunsui]

What ever shred of respect that I had for the catholic church vaporized when the pope called Harry Potter 'evil' because it was based on witchcraft and wizardry.

[NeophyteNihilist]

What ever shred of respect that I had for the catholic church vaporized when the pope called Harry Potter 'evil' because it was based on witchcraft and wizardry.
I'm pretty sure that was just the protestants who concider it evil.

[akuma no omoigakenai saku]

Well, the new pope had spoken out against it, saying it was confusing a generation of kids and messing up their moral compasses.

[ThiefKing]

I would like to know people's opinions on this.


I hardly see it as your fault in any way, shape, or form. IMHO the Catholic Church is extremely flawed, it's teaching are old world, it's rules contridict itself, and the slightly more orthodox believers are extreme hypocrits who use single passages when and how they see fit to do so.

Of course my opinion may be just a tad biased :amuse

[DeathGuise_of_Oblivion]

I don't think you've really lost your faith in God as much as you've just lost your faith in man. I think that one day, you'll find that tiny grain of truth in the dessert sands of lies. The truth is, when are you going to start searching.

Anyway, the Chatholic Church has had problems since they started out. (Nicean Creed anyone) Just because you find contradictory in a contradictorian place, doesn't mean that you can't find peace between yourself and God without some priest in the middle trying to tell you what he thinks to mess it all up for you.

I personally think that in our hearts is where our belief in God lies. If you let your heart and God's heart connect in a moment of prayer, you may just find the answers to your questions. Just remember, God loves all his children and it hurts him when he sees them curse his name. But if you ever do wrong, remember, because his only son, Jesus Christ, gave up his mortal life for you, you can always ask for forgivness even after doing something completly wrong. That is the true nature of God. A father who wishes to do his best to help you grow up. But in order to grow up, you have to get on your own two feet and choose which path to follow.

And even if you choose a bad path, you can always turn around before you reach the end where not even he can help you. I suggest you go buy a King James Translation of The Bible (most correctly translated one to date, and the one used in most church's) and start reading and searching for the answers there.



And OtacantheOtaku, please don't quote this post. I don't want to argue with you about this kind of topic AGAIN.

[NeophyteNihilist]

And even if you choose a bad path, you can always turn around before you reach the end where not even he can help you. I suggest you go buy a King James Translation of The Bible (most correctly translated one to date, and the one used in most church's) and start reading and searching for the answers there.
I have read quite a bit of the Bible (New American version, not King James though) and thats part of the reason i'm in my current state of agnosticism.

[Nazareth]

I've been raised in a devotely Catholic family and I go to church every Sunday, however the more I think about the church and its teachings the less it makes sense and the more I find to disagree with. I am very logical in my thinking, and so many of the church's teachings seem illogical or closed minded to me. I lack the faith to accept what i believe to be flawed teachings. I'd love to be able to accept the church's teachings as truth, as nearly all the devotely religious people I know seem to be happy because of their beliefs and it would make the world a lot simpler, however I simply can't. If this inability to accept the docterines of the Catholic Church lead me to hell, whos fault is it, God's or mine? My lack of faith is not due to laziness or spite and I have no alterior motives for not believing, so I believe it would be God's fault. I would like to know people's opinions on this.

Well heres how I see it, dont get offended if I come off a little rude. I dont think you had any faith to begin with. Once our a catholic/christian your always going to be one, your faith cant just go bye bye all of a sudden. IM not saying if you were truly religious then you would agree with everything in the church, im just sayig you probably didnt have faith to begin with.

[meatpie]

Is losing faith in the Catholic church a bad thing?
I'm just asking the question...no offence to anyone...

[HyugaHinata]

True, but should I be held responsible for the church's short commings?

There is no way that you can be held responsible for what the church does. The church is the church, and you are you.

[EternalHatred]

Adding to what I said earlier (which no one read, most likely), you cannot exactly lose faith in God if you believe in its existence. (notice the word 'believe'?)

[dont_look_back]

its da bibles fault its all wrong

[The 21st Hokage]

I'd blame it on the teachings that were illogical to you and not really god since it was man that was teaching it through gods image.

[Toby]

Pft, so much BS in this thread and so little logic.

Here is a quote that I find to be bloody brilliant:
Right and wrong are just words, what matters is what you do - God, Futurama

As for your alternatives, it is neither the church`s nor your fault that you have a different view on issues and that you dont agree with them 100%.
Hell, I know a guy who`s a Catholic and who is so pissed that a former Hitler Jugend is pope now, I dont blame him for his attitude :wink

If someone is to be blamed, its everything and everyone who has affected you, whom you know and everything your senses has percieved, because it makes you who you are today. And that, there is nothing wrong about, be yourself, and if the church doesnt like it, you dont need to relate to them for such. Give a hoot, the church is for those who have faith in God, they are not here to order you around and tell you how to live, they are meant to give guidance.

Now art and music are different, they are true beauty, for they are eternal.

[Random Azn Guy]

Why don't you just ask the pastor/deacon/youth minister at your parish to explain why the Catholic Church teaches/believes "teachings that seem illogical or close minded to you"? I'm pretty sure that whoever you ask is not going to be like "OK, that's it you're going to hell for doubting/questioning what the catholic church teaches! Get out of my face!" If they're a decent catholic priest/deacon, I'm sure they'd be willing to talk about whatevers on your mind. Don't be afraid! :)

[lekki]

It's your fault entirely.
I'm an engineer and have always thought of things like life logically. But there always comes a point when science can't explain it anymore and God takes over at that point.
Or when something unbelievably good happens at just the right time, God takes over.
It's not like it hurts you to believe anyway.
Church is just a place to gather with others who believe the same thing you do, if you don't want to go, don't go! Don't start blaming other people for it because if there really is a heaven, which I believe there is and you get to the pearly gates, do you think your excuses are going to fly?

[Fe1029]

It's not God's fault. I believe its probably both yours and the church's fault. The church doesn't really try to relate to the teens and kids of the parish (at least this is how my parish is) A way to level with it all is get into a youth group they'll put it into a new perspective and they really relate to you

[Toby]

It's not God's fault. I believe its probably both yours and the church's fault.

Dear God, why? Reason? please?

The church doesn't really try to relate to the teens and kids of the parish (at least this is how my parish is) A way to level with it all is get into a youth group they'll put it into a new perspective and they really relate to you

So because the church doesnt try to relate with teens at your parish it is fair to make the conclusion that the church doesnt do so at all? What a unique form of logic that is...
The Catholic church btw is the church arranging the largest organised tour for teens, this year they are going to Munich.

A tip for you Fe1029, please think, before posting that is

[Fe1029]

*raises eye brow*
I meant that in the homily they mostly talk about adult things, things we can not relate to. I am merely saying joining a youth group will help you relate to the gospel better than hearing things you can't relate to. The parish is very worried about the adults and can't reach everyone through ever homily they give. If you didn't know the youth group that i was talking about is a CATHOLIC youth group to help teens keep in touch with the church. And yes i know that, about being the church is very into teen things. I wasn't attacking you or my religion so please don't act like i was.

[UltimateUchiha]

It's neither it just what you chose to do you and that all you make it sound like you did something wrong but it was just a choice don't question it go with it

[Toby]

*raises eye brow*
I meant that in the homily they mostly talk about adult things, things we can not relate to. I am merely saying joining a youth group will help you relate to the gospel better than hearing things you can't relate to. The parish is very worried about the adults and can't reach everyone through ever homily they give. If you didn't know the youth group that i was talking about is a CATHOLIC youth group to help teens keep in touch with the church. And yes i know that, about being the church is very into teen things. I wasn't attacking you or my religion so please don't act like i was.

Well you stated:
"The church doesn't really try to relate to the teens and kids of the parish (at least this is how my parish is)"

And that is why I reacted, fair and square. Deal with it

[mgrace]

I think u should read the bible and go to another church that teaches you the bible... That may help u...

[therealultimatepower]

Screw the Church. Just sleep in on Sunday mornings, like I do. THere is no heaven or hell, nor is there a god. So just live your life and be happy without the fear of such silly things. THere's enough scary things in this world, why make up new ones?

[Fe1029]

Well you stated:
"The church doesn't really try to relate to the teens and kids of the parish (at least this is how my parish is)"

And that is why I reacted, fair and square. Deal with it

Sorry I used the wrong use of words ^_^ but the post above that I made is more specific.

[Heartgobbler]

I lost my faith some time ago, for complicated reasons. Ill leave one of them here and if any believer could find an answer for it, I'd appreciate it.

The bible sais that God knows everything and nothing happens without his will.

If so, then there is no free will. We can do what we want to, but what we want is directly dependant on how God has created us to be. Whatever is evil, it is so because God purposefully made it evil.

Now, if there is hell, all the people there will be eternally punished for being created evil by God.

If (as some teologists claim) hell is empty, then our deeds have no meaning: We would be like toy soldiers, divided into two armies , only to be put back into one box once the game is over.

So, if God exists, worshipping him would be either pointless or actually wrong:blink

[omni1337]

You won't know the answer until you do die, but think of it like this, don't belive just to make yourself seem cool and there really is a God, well then good one..
I am like part Athiest part catholic, I believe in the power of prayer and somewhat in God because if there was no God humans would be the omnipotent force in the universe thus far, and we would have no equal....
And yet a sharp stick can kill us...
So I do believe there is a God but no heaven and hell crap.

[eXshinobi]

I'd say it's the church's short coming. But the individual Christian should be held responsible because the Bible encourages finding out the true for yourself. Don't let another person tell you what you can read and find out for yourself. That's how all these denominations came about. Because someone read the Bible and saw that the Catholic church contradicts with some of it's teaching, i.e. Martin Luther, and pushed for reform, thus comes the Lutherans and so on.

Anyhow, in short, it is every Christian's responsibility to seek out the truth for themselves either by reading the Bible for themselves or looking for people who can honestly "teach" and instruct on sound doctrine. Every church will fall short in someway or the other but it's when the individual Christians come together and study the Word that false and contradictory doctrine can be properly corrected.

[zeoblade]

I don't think it's your fault at all. Don't worry I find that it is common for people to have fish bowls that Catholicism (and the other similar religions) has not enough water to fill

[NeophyteNihilist]

thread resurection no jutsu!!!

Wow, I forgot about this thread. It was just as I was getting to the point I was more interested in discussing too. The general concensus seems to be that I lost my faith because of the church's shortcommings, and it was not my fault. Therefore, I shouldn't go to hell. However, wouldn't this apply to every single athiest and nonreligous person as well? After all, the Church failed them as well, by not being able to convince them of God's existance or that they are better off following God's commandments.

[Yasashii Chou]

I guess this is why I'm not Catholic >>;

[Haruka]

Yes, Jesus would really magicly turn water to wine because he was a drunk.

[KazeYama]

It is the Church's fault I guess and God's fault since his "messengers" turn a blind eye toward pedophilia, safe sex, and women's rights. If they are servents of God and God speaks through them then God is at fault. Either that or God doesn't exist and the Church is a money grubbing, political organization concerned only about its own well being and its influence over the world as it has been for centuries.

Or God is just a dick who while giving us free will wo't make us happy while still giving us the illusion of free will because the human race is an experiment.

[AssFace]

Not ur fault. don't know if god exists though.......so don't know if it's his fault?

You made the right decision though for sure. No piont in staying in a religion you don't believe in.

[zeoblade]

It is the Church's fault I guess and God's fault since his "messengers" turn a blind eye toward pedophilia, safe sex, and women's rights. If they are servents of God and God speaks through them then God is at fault. Either that or God doesn't exist and the Church is a money grubbing, political organization concerned only about its own well being and its influence over the world as it has been for centuries.

Or God is just a dick who while giving us free will wo't make us happy while still giving us the illusion of free will because the human race is an experiment.

You're not wrong about some of the biased things that happen. It seems this religion is really subjective and is often twisted (referring to the meaning) to serve the purpose of the user of religion.

[Ticking_Clock]

I've believed in a God since day 1. However, religion is something I try to not to get myself involved. I think its all a farce anyway. We shouldn't be told on how to live life because of an idol sitting on top of that altar. Live it to your whim and never doubt yourself. You made that desicion because you wanted to not because of a flaw in the book.


EDIT: whim isn't spelled whime >.<

[zeoblade]

I like that ^. At least you understand choice and responsibility.

[Nybarius]

Losing faith in the church means you can no longer blame God for your shortcomings. Once you get out of the habit, life might seem harder, but I venture it will also be more fulfilling.

[OtacontheOtaku]

Yeah, except that if you were to take the Biblical scriptures seriously, revelations included, it mentions that the Churches would become corrupt and you should leave them. Of course... Revelations was written as a coded letter, but so many people take it as a prophecy instead of what it was meant to do... give hope to Christians being persecuted by the Romans =_=; .

[zeoblade]

There is some degree of corruption in establishments that have been around a long time. But for followers that are new to the business, they are really naive and innocent and really believe in it.

[CrazyMoronX]

It's the churches fault for having their own belief system that you don't agree with.

Just as much as it's the government's fault for me not agreeing with certain taxes and laws.

[earthshine]

first off, im not trying to offend any catholics, but catholasisim is just plain bad. they dont want you to celabrate your faith, they want you to mourne it, i dont see how god could expect people to live by those rules, why would he want people to be unhappy

[zeoblade]

Do you mean that they have interpreted things to suit themselves?

[earthshine]

in my opinion, they got drunk on power during the dark ages, and decided that their word was gods word

[Masaki]

I am very logical in my thinking

Well, this is why your faith was broken.

[Potentialflip]

Talk about ressurected. Anyways about your OP. I don't know if you have changed your thinking and so on. But I will just base this on your OP. Looking at your age. There is a lot of people who are in your position. You pointed out your lost faith in the Catholic Church... To tell you the truth I get where you were coming from. Throughout my time here in Miami I switched church's three times. Though one doesn't really count because I moved. But still I did switch out church's because of the way they taught the teachings. My advice is to do switch church's. That is my advice from me and I think you should do that before thinking of doubting your faith.

Now I'm in a church where my faith in the Catholic teachings is quite strong. But if should you ever lose faith on the Catholic Church and all of its teachings. Technically it goes both ways. This is one thing people tend to not realize when all they do is cry and bicker why god did so and so to them. It is your fault for not letting god take over your life and let him do his thing. It is god's fault for not reaching out to you hard enough and let you see what he is trying to show you.

[zeoblade]

Well, this is why your faith was broken.

Hahahah so true

[Sesha]

Oh that's so great, you contradicted yourself by both saying you absoluetly don't believe in God and that there might be a chance possiblity of His very existence, but you don't know. *sarcasm* I see what you mean though from your later writing, but your title just isn't politically correct. Although, religion is from God. I don't think "a god" really exists outside a "religious" belief system. It forms the definition of a religion.
That last part is erroneous, many religions do not believe in a god. Belief in the preternatural does not make something into a religion. A religion "is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine; and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions and rituals associated with such belief".

Belief in a supernatural being is not required for something to be a religion. Left-Hand Path religions, such as Satanism and Le Dragon Rouge, do not necessarily believe in supernatural beings, but still have things they consider sacred. The same are also true for belief systems that are commonly called "philosophical religions", such as Confucianism and the like.

[rimpelcut]

it's your fault because you did not rest on the 7th day and lost the connection with ONE. If you do not rest on the 7th day ONE will leave you. Only if you deligntently try to solve the mystery of ONE and have faith in ONE will you get what you want. If you start to question ONE you will never find them, have faith in him and look inside yourself and only yourself. There you will find ONE and only then can you unravel the mystery of all mysteries.

[Rook]

I've been raised in a devotely Catholic family and I go to church every Sunday, however the more I think about the church and its teachings the less it makes sense and the more I find to disagree with. I am very logical in my thinking, and so many of the church's teachings seem illogical or closed minded to me. I lack the faith to accept what i believe to be flawed teachings. I'd love to be able to accept the church's teachings as truth, as nearly all the devotely religious people I know seem to be happy because of their beliefs and it would make the world a lot simpler, however I simply can't. If this inability to accept the docterines of the Catholic Church lead me to hell, whos fault is it, God's or mine? My lack of faith is not due to laziness or spite and I have no alterior motives for not believing, so I believe it would be God's fault. I would like to know people's opinions on this.Since I do not know you, I would have to say that is really the Catholic church's fault. I have always had a problem with the Catholic church because it is so based on tradition and ceremony rather than good solid preaching of the Word. Pretty churches don't mean squat if its congregation is poor in spirit. It's really sad as I have heard so many Catholics who have said the same thing.

[Ecnafoo]

Every church is different. If you still belive in god read the bible its the only way your gonna get back on the right path. No matter what churches say the bible is the only right teaching pastors just talk.

[Spunoff]

Neither God nor your fault! It is the Church's fault, and I think you know why.

[AestheticizeAnalog]

Follow the path of what you think is right. I would say it is the catholic church because the church has yet to evolve to the standards of western countries. There is alot of hypocrisy in most organized religion, so for people like me and you who are analytical and logical. Some of the ideas of organized religion seem backward.

[rimpelcut]

wtf man, the church is god, you no believe in god? then smack you he shall

[Rook]

Every church is different. If you still belive in god read the bible its the only way your gonna get back on the right path. No matter what churches say the bible is the only right teaching pastors just talk.True, but churches need good pastors to educate the congregation on the Word. Personal devotions are very important, but so are theologically educated men to teach and maintain the church's spiritual well-being. If pastors merely 'just talk' then the congregation is left uninspired and unmotivated.

[Kin]

You're not the only one who lost faith in the Catholic Church, I also lost my faith (Also in God). The moment I moved to my grandparents, I never had to do the same things I did on my old school in Belgium. Which made me forget about God, sometimes when Im depressed I always think about God, but I don't think he wants to hear to me when Im depressed, I guess I left him, and doesn't wanna listen to me, but God is also something I hold onto cause I got the feeling somebody is listening to me, without answering me.

[Beren]

True, but churches need good pastors to educate the congregation on the Word. Personal devotions are very important, but so are theologically educated men to teach and maintain the church's spiritual well-being. If pastors merely 'just talk' then the congregation is left uninspired and unmotivated.

Yeah... My pastor makes Church really fun and my fellowship here really encourages me to learn more about God as well.

I saw this video clip of a pastor in this poor area... his entire Sunday sermon was on how ppl should give to the Church; his message was "if u give to the Church, good things will come to u." That's an example of how bad a pastor can be...

[Tora Boys and Ino Girls]

How can you judge God through the catholic church? That's one of the reasons why i dislike the catholic church, it has so much "tradition". How can you judge God from how people act? Basically most people in the world are crap. So judging God based on the people who call themselves Christian isn't really justified.

Hail Brother! I too believe you can't judge a religion based on the way the bulk of the followers practice it (I'm a practicing, if slacking a bit lately, Methodist and when I combine what I've read in the Bible and historical knowledge from the specific times and places of those scripture, I come to the conclusion that Good Ol' Boys don't make that great of Christians, and they dominate the Religion in the Western Hemisphrere.)

The same goes for Islam. Terrorists and Male supremesists use Islam as a propaganda tool, and are not the best example of Muslims.

[Mibu Clan]

Blame it...on... Bass!

[Rook]

Yeah... My pastor makes Church really fun and my fellowship here really encourages me to learn more about God as well.

I saw this video clip of a pastor in this poor area... his entire Sunday sermon was on how ppl should give to the Church; his message was "if u give to the Church, good things will come to u." That's an example of how bad a pastor can be...Yeah, that sounds pretty bad. Sounds as if he's saying that you should expect a reward for charity when you should never expect anything in return for giving.

[neko-sennin]

It's nobody's fault.

Perhaps organized religion just isn't for you. You can seriously hurt your mind trying to apply logic to religion.

In my case, it cost me that indescribable quality that others mistook for sanity.

[NashNinja]

If God exists, then odds are he knows if you've been bad or good, y'know, like Santa. I'm not too sure if there's a God or not, but hey, I have just about as good a chance as anyone of knowing.

Anyway, I'm feeling as though it's not so much your faith as it is the people you've seen within it. I'd say take whatever path you feel most comfortable on. That may be with the Catholic church, or maybe with who knows what faith, but either way you cut it, some things that are right and wrong are pretty easy to figure out, and if you stay within those lines, I'm pretty shure God would know.

[Megaharrison]

The Catholic Church has been a travesty since its creation. It's responsible for the intellectual ignorance of the Dark Ages, anti-semitism, the Crusades, and countless other crimes against Humanity. They hord loot while Christians in Africa starve. They cooperated with the Nazi's in WWII. Now we have the sex abuse scandal to add to their delightful collection.

So it's their fault, not yours or Gods.

[esoteric`]

True the catholic church is to blame, but you shouldn't see questioning your faith as something bad. Having some doubt in your beliefs keeps you grounded....otherwise what would separate you the fanatics, the crusaders, the murderers killing in the name of god. I myself see religion as one's own personal set of beliefs (yes i understand that using this reasoning anything could be justified through ones own religion but that's not the point). My point is that if there is a heaven and a god then why should he/she care what religion you are if you're a good person.

Organized religion in all forms is more of a tool that can be used and manipulated to hurt. It isn't always as flexible as one's own beliefs.

as Karl Marx said "religion is the opium of the masses"

[shibigoku]

It's the Church not you or God's fault. I once saw a priest make a comment about how bad smocking was and after the seance, he was smocking in the back alley of the church. + the pedophile priest's scandals a few years ago. If you don't believe in the Catholic Church anymore (like me), believe in God. That's all you need to do.

[hesd]

You should be anchoring your Faith to God and not just to any religious tradition, practices and ceremonies. One needs to discover God though a personal journey. It is effortful and tiring. Sometimes you just feel like giving up. But continue to trust Him. Surrender completely to Him and you'll see. Sadly, spiritual growth is something that cannot vicariously be felt. However, anyone can experience it firsthand.:)

And btw, the part does not represent the whole. Nor does the whole reflect the parts. You are terribly mistaken if you think that socks = total get-up.

[Paracetamol Boy]

It's the church's fault.

[xyie]

You should be anchoring your Faith to God and not just to any religious tradition, practices and ceremonies. One needs to discover God though a personal journey. It is effortful and tiring. Sometimes you just feel like giving up. But continue to trust Him. Surrender completely to Him and you'll see. Sadly, spiritual growth is something that cannot vicariously be felt. However, anyone can experience it firsthand.:)

And btw, the part does not represent the whole. Nor does the whole reflect the parts. You are terribly mistaken if you think that socks = total get-up.


I agree with that statement. Church does not equal to God.

[Toby]

Just have faith in God for what the bible says, if its the preaching thats the problem dodge the preaching. But dont get all cocky and make your own religion, just try to interpret it as good as possible.

The bible can be confusing in so many ways, preachers have different views. So should you, but dont lose your love for life because you cant feel God anymore.

[xyie]

Actually i dont believe in what the Bible says, just a part of it..

[neko-sennin]

The best advice I can give is to think for yourself.

The bible, like most religious texts, contains some wisdom, but you usually have to filter out entire chapters of nonsense, historical justifications for an assortment of unholy actions, and unabashedly egocentric accounts of the past, in order to get at it.

[xyie]

The best advice I can give is to think for yourself.

The bible, like most religious texts, contains some wisdom, but you usually have to filter out entire chapters of nonsense, historical justifications for an assortment of unholy actions, and unabashedly egocentric accounts of the past, in order to get at it.


yea, i think i know that!! The bible has been edited a few times in the past and in that time we dont know what really happen. I believe in what the bible says, the wisdom and all, and i do honor it and respect it but i dont entirely believe the stories in there was the complete life of God or Jesus.. I think my faith in God is good enough

[Trias]

Yeah, Neko-Sennin is probably right. Surely that all holy books contain some wisdom but they contain also "entire chapters of nonsense" for sure. It can't be helped.

Believe in god in your own way. If that... ultimate being... is really god, and it is a god of love, justice and mercy, then the way you believe in it doesn't matter...

[NeoSlayer666]

Personally I lost my faith in there being a "God" when I was old enough to actually question everything I learned in church, school ect. I would say that right about now I would be considered an atheist. The possibility that something somewhere created us isn't out of the question to me. But anyways, the way I decided to look at it is this. I am going to lead my life the best way I think I can, and if there actually is a "God" then they should let me into heaven regardless if I believed in them or not. And you know what, if there is a God, and I lived my life the best way I thought and then didn't get into heaven then that is fine too. I wouldn't want to worship a God like that anyways : )

[Rook]

The best advice I can give is to think for yourself.

The bible, like most religious texts, contains some wisdom, but you usually have to filter out entire chapters of nonsense, historical justifications for an assortment of unholy actions, and unabashedly egocentric accounts of the past, in order to get at it.That sounds all peachy and all, but you really need to rethink that. The way I see it, you need to either fully accept the Scriptures or not at all. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth your time either way.

[neko-sennin]

So basically choose only from the choices others offer me?

I refuse to let society wield that kind of power in my life. I make my own choices.

[hesd]

The belief in the authority of the Bible is rooted in the belief in God. Therefore, if you are selective of the contents of Bible, then you are questioning the divine revelation of God.
If there indeed is God, then He would not let His word be adulterated and multitudes be mislead by a book rife with distortions and contradictions.

Btw, you can refuse what society dictates, but not without consequences. The family you're born into, the peer groups, your school, your ethnicity and various others determine your life chances. These manifest the rather indirect power of society over individuals.

[neko-sennin]

Yes, but only up to a point. Beyond a certain level, power is given, not taken.

And since the bible, like all other religious texts, were written by mere mortals, it is only instinctive for me to question its past and present motives and uses.

[Nakor]

It is no ones fault. I wouldn't even worry about it too much. If you still believe in God then keep believing in Him. Read the Bible if you feel that you might be losing your faith if you aren't going to church.

As long as you accept God and His teachings in your heart then that is all that truly matters.

[makeoutparadise2]

Nither only the Tao will decide Lol

[Rockreaper]

I don't think it's anyone's fault. You simply began to see another opinion on things and began to lose your beliefs in the teachings. It's not fault, more like, and i use this term loosley, a discovery. That's how I see it leastways.

[Sakura Kaijuu]

Personally I lost my faith in there being a "God" when I was old enough to actually question everything I learned in church, school ect. I would say that right about now I would be considered an atheist. The possibility that something somewhere created us isn't out of the question to me. But anyways, the way I decided to look at it is this. I am going to lead my life the best way I think I can, and if there actually is a "God" then they should let me into heaven regardless if I believed in them or not. And you know what, if there is a God, and I lived my life the best way I thought and then didn't get into heaven then that is fine too. I wouldn't want to worship a God like that anyways : )

I'm kind of the opposite. My parents renounced Christianity (my mom was Roman Catholic, my dad was Episcopalion) and they raised my brother, sisters, and me to think for ourselves. They always told us that they didn't believe in God, but we were welcome to have our own beliefs, as long as they weren't beliefs forced on us by our friends. I live in a very Christian area, so that happens a lot.

Then my dad fucked with my head and when I started to go to synagogue (out of curiosity) with one of my best friends, and then later with the people I babysit for, he told me I couldn't be Jewish. Oddly enough, that's the faith I'm leaning towards the most.

Anyway, back to NeophyteNihilist's dilemma, I don't think it's God's fault that you've lost faith. It's not fair to blame everything on God. That's comparable (on a very very very very very basic level, so please don't yell at me) to the crazy murderers and unibombers who say that they're carrying out God's missions.

I'm not saying that it's specifically your fault that you've lost faith. I think you're just thinking a lot. That happens sometimes. That's my big problem right now. Sometimes I think that there really is a God, but more often than not I think myself into circles about God's existence and the Bible stories and then I think about how I can never be Christian because of psychological trauma in elementary school and then I just get confused.

I'm not even sure that you've lost faith if you're so worried about it. I suggest you read the trilogy His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. It's an excellent series mostly centered around faith. But not in a really obvious way. It's really subtle, and it's beautifully written.

That's my two cents anyway...:tem

[neko-sennin]

I'm not even sure that you've lost faith if you're so worried about it.

He does have a bit of a point. I quit worrying about faith a long time ago, so I'm pretty sure religion's not for me. Though I wonder if the fact that sometimes I worry about my sanity means I'm sane after all?

Or is it just another symptom of my madness?...

[Raptor]

Well if that was so I could blame God for taking my wife away when she was only 23, but I don't.

U lose faith on what? the teachings? the advices? or the way they act? i'll put an example here: a drunk man with pee all over himself tells you not to drink. what is your first though?

- This guy needs to do that himself.

Do you listen? Most of the time, NO.

Is it an advice? hell yeah. is it a GOOD advice? hell yeah. The teachings, have nothing to do with the people. Follow what you believe and stick to it. Be it a church or be anything u want or don't want. If u think that by changing church things will change, think again. Most church leaders are greedy bastards who are only after the money of the people.

[tayottt]

catholic faith = corrupt, I say you accept Jesus as your Lord and savior like you fore-fathers

[AssFace]

someone probably said this before but it's the jackasses who run the churces fault.

No offense to catholics, but throughout history it is clear that catholics exploited the christian religion for power. They have so much dirt about them I'm suprised ANYONE believes what they say anymore.

[o0oEnderIlleso0o]

Faith is hope. As long as you hope you havent lost faith. Maybe just desiring truth? Desire is the first step to truly cultivating faith. I'm struggling with the same thing, but I recently became very excited about what I was so worried about before. I care about these sort of things. I have sincere desire. Its more than I've ever had before and I couldn't be happier about the trial. Hang in there.

[Reznor]

If this inability to accept the docterines of the Catholic Church lead me to hell, whos fault is it, God's or mine? The Catholic church's fault.