Bruce Lee vs Mike Tyson

[CrazyMoronX]

Ok, we all know Bruce pwns all, but really who would win?

Bruce Lee - the master of martial arts, advocate of bowl cuts, and flows like water.

Mike Tyson (in his prime) - speed, power, and a girlish voice all wrapped up into one man!

Well my vote goes to Bruce, even though in all reality... I don't know who would win for sure.

[Insipidipity]

Depends, would Mike Tyson beat Ali? If he could at least draw, he takes this. Lee knows he doesn't have the raw power because of his size, plus he respected Ali a ton, I mean he thought Ali had the perfect physics behind his punches.

He might beat Mike if Ali would cream him but its kinda hard due to his lack of power but he has overall fighting as opposed to a punching specialists, especially one with an anger problem could be taken advantage of.

[stomponfrogs]

Well, there is no way to know who would win for sure, since Bruce Lee passed away and all. I don't mean to underestimate Tyson, boxing, or anything, because I think people who box for a living are freaking crazy taking hits like that, but against Bruce Lee? That guy is lightning fast and not a wimp when it comes to strength.

[azn_sephiroth]

bruce lee man.....one-inch-punch the remainder of tysons teeth.

[HollowDreamer]

bruce lee all the way.

[Ephemeral]

Couple punches to the throat, Tysons gone.

[Id]

Bruce lee reason why….he kicks ass. More than Tyson.

[kapsi]

Not if Tyson uses the forbidden technique taught him by evil monks from dimension x's Shaolin Monastery!

[Dragonzair]

Bruce Lee pwns...

unfortunately...i didn't understand the poll...so i voted for mike tyson for the ko :scry

[Kamendex]

Wow...hmmm people dont seem to know the real Bruce Lee...I think you guys are confused O.o...you're all basing this on a Bruce Lee that was immortalized by his wife....she made him seem like a god....

Ill be back in a few hours with a TON of info on the REAL Bruce Lee....

But I'll leave you with this bit of info. Bruce Lee has two recorded fights. One against a cook and one against a martial arts student....he lost them both.

[Spidey]

All I can say is that Bruce Lee would whoop his ass. He can adapt to him and his style way too quickly. I really don't feel like typing any essay so I'll let someone else come and give long ass explaination. In short the little dragon owns him.

[Kira Yamato]

Going with Bruce Lee. Tyson is an offensive force but I think Lee is definetly a smarter fighter and will end up with a decisive win.

[braindx]

I agree with Kamendex (and his forthcoming info)... mainly because I've visited other forums with this debate and it usually goes to Tyson unless Bruce Lee is overhyped.

I will give credit where it is due though and Bruce Lee did contribute a lot to martial arts, but he can't beat Tyson (unless he super groin kicks him and plays dirty). Tyson can take a lot of punishment (1 inch punch or even a full punch from Lee wouldn't do much against someone who is trained to take hits PLUS Tyson weighs much more than Lee) while 1 hit from Tyson would probably KO Lee

[COWBOYX]

I think tyson wouldn't even be able to touch lee. KO, not even an option for tyson. However, tyson could luck up and graze Bruce lee on the arm or something. Thats if he throws punches and kicks. This match also depends on how long lee can keep fighting. Tyson's pretty strong and can definitly take A lot of damage. :cool

[zeoblade]

I think tyson wouldn't even be able to touch lee. KO, not even an option for tyson. However, tyson could luck up and graze Bruce lee on the arm or something. Thats if he throws punches and kicks. This match also depends on how long lee can keep fighting. Tyson's pretty strong and can definitly take A lot of damage. :cool

I agree as well. Tyson may dash but its unfair to him because of his size and inexperience against Gongfu. Li Xiao Long takes the value out of being big because he has the power without the slowness. Strategy is another advantage Li Xiao Long has as well as leg work.

[mgrace]

Mike would bite Lee's ear off.....

I saw a DRAW...

[Heavens.Cloud]

Lee would own Tyson, he was lightning quick and had alot of power.

[Jedi Mind Tricks]

Bruce Lee was a class fighter, but I give it to Tyson in his prime, whatever he punches would get destroyed and Tyson can take a lot of punishment.

People are saying Bruce Lee has speed and power, but Tyson (in his prime) also had sneaky speed and a shit load of power.

This is all a matter of opinion as in a fight anything can happen. Getting kicked in the balls can easily sway the fight.

[Hero kun]

If both have power, Bruce Lee will then have an advantage because of his speed and his fast reaction.

[Lord Yu]

Bruce Lee once send a guy flying with a light slap. He takes this. bruce is too fast and stable mentally. mike tyson is to mentally unstable to take someone like bruce lee. Bruce would probably get mike fired up and make him waste stamina. i picked them both exploding for unknown reasons.

[ChaochroX]

I give this to Lee. In the end his steady mind would win him the fight plus his side kick is no joke.

[happygolucky]

Bruce Lee hands down. He may not speak english, but he sure as hell doesnt sound like Mike Tyson >.>

*snickers*

[Delta Shell]

Bruce Lee spoke really good english. (Yeah, most likely better than Tyson). He was born in San Francisco, went to Hong Kong and then went back to America to complete his education.

He was a pretty cool cat, you should check out some of his lingo in interviews and movies.

"You know baby.."

[happygolucky]

Bruce Lee spoke really good english. (Yeah, most likely better than Tyson). He was born in San Francisco, went to Hong Kong and then went back to America to complete his education.

He was a pretty cool cat, you should check out some of his lingo in interviews and movies.

"You know baby.."
:oh

well....then just pretend that i was never here...:laugh

*aways*

=P

[~Spike~]

I never really was a Tyson fan. He talked too much garbage, and in these last few fights.... meh, he had to play dirty and still couldn't do a thing. (Yes, I hate dirty fights)

With that being said. Even if Tyson was in his prime I'd still give this match up to Lee. Tyson had speed and power, but if you ask me Lee's eyes are too sharp (brush tysons punches to the side), and I'm pretty sure Lee can withstand pain so... "shrugs"

[zeoblade]

Bruce Lee hands down. He may not speak english, but he sure as hell doesnt sound like Mike Tyson >.>

*snickers*

He speaks good English not that it matters because he's Chinese. Your mother language is the most important language to speak.

He was a pretty cool cat, you should check out some of his lingo in interviews and movies.

I like the philosophy of Jie Quan Do too, very clever guy for someone so young. Very similar to Kong Fu Zi being so deep and intelligent around his 30s.

With that being said. Even if Tyson was in his prime I'd still give this match up to Lee. Tyson had speed and power, but if you ask me Lee's eyes are too sharp (brush tysons punches to the side), and I'm pretty sure Lee can withstand pain so... "shrugs"

I can't agree more with you there, he has Gongfu in his awareness.

[qooro]

Bruce lee would win but there are better martial artists better than bruce lee

[zeoblade]

Bruce lee would win but there are better martial artists better than bruce lee

Oh a conaisseur? Who do you want to acknowledge?

[Wing-Zero]

lee would win he may not be stronger but he is faster

[zeoblade]

lee would win he may not be stronger but he is faster

How strong is Tyson? Li Xiao Long is strong as someone double his mass.

[Kunoichi no Kiri]

Um... what everyone in this thread fails to realize is that a 135-lb guy can't do anything to a 280-lb pile of muscle, no matter who he is. Human is human.

[zeoblade]

Um... what everyone in this thread fails to realize is that a 135-lb guy can't do anything to a 280-lb pile of muscle, no matter who he is. Human is human.

Of course one can, he's done it before many times. Because they're larger doesn't mean they're invincible, especially for Li Xiao Long.

[Spidey]

Of course one can, he's done it before many times. Because they're larger doesn't mean they're invincible, especially for Li Xiao Long.

I completely agree. Honestly, weight and size doesn't mean too much to such a skilled martial artist like Lee. Every man has a weakness and since their fight wouldn't be a boxing match, anything goes, and Lee would exploit that. Lee wins.

[lekki]

Bruce Lee has the speed and power to take this.
His kicks could rip punching bags and his punches were even worse.
I saw the documentary on AMC or TLC and he really is a legend.

Mike Tyson would go for Bruce Lee's ear and find his throat is missing.

[~Spike~]

Um... what everyone in this thread fails to realize is that a 135-lb guy can't do anything to a 280-lb pile of muscle, no matter who he is. Human is human.
It's not wise to underestimate the toothpicks =D.

[Jedi Mind Tricks]

Every man has a weakness and since their fight wouldn't be a boxing match, anything goes, and Lee would exploit that. Lee wins.

That isn't true, please bear with me as I know we are talking about Tyson but Bruce Lee even admitted that Muhammad Ali would beat him in a fight.

Just because Tyson he's a boxer, doesn't mean that his legs a vulnerable, boxing is 90% footwork.

I again emphasize that I'm not comparing Bruce Lee to Muhammad Ali, I'm just opposing that point you made by using something that even Bruce Lee said.

:)

But then again, this is all hypothetical so whatever... :P

[Twizted]

Um... what everyone in this thread fails to realize is that a 135-lb guy can't do anything to a 280-lb pile of muscle, no matter who he is. Human is human.

Kiri, with all due respect that is pretty incorrect. Bruce Lee's short punch had the same equivalent force on the human body as a car moving at 35 Mph. A short punch is one within 3 inches of the body and without cocking the arm back. I saw him lift a 200lb, man off the ground with that punch. This man was not helping Lee at all. I'll try to find that clip but in the mean time read this:
http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html

Don't forget the section that talks about the strength of Lee.

Bruce Lee would absolutely man handle Mike Tyson.

[Twizted]

That isn't true, please bear with me as I know we are talking about Tyson but Bruce Lee even admitted that Muhammad Ali would beat him in a fight.

Just because Tyson he's a boxer, doesn't mean that his legs a vulnerable, boxing is 90% footwork.

I again emphasize that I'm not comparing Bruce Lee to Muhammad Ali, I'm just opposing that point you made by using something that even Bruce Lee said.

:)

But then again, this is all hypothetical so whatever... :P

Correction, Bruce Lee said he would lose in a fight to Muhammad Ali, if he were confined to fighting in a specific controlled manner. i.e. if Lee was restricted to using only fists or if they were in an extremely confined enviroment.

[Spidey]

That isn't true, please bear with me as I know we are talking about Tyson but Bruce Lee even admitted that Muhammad Ali would beat him in a fight.

Just because Tyson he's a boxer, doesn't mean that his legs a vulnerable, boxing is 90% footwork.

I again emphasize that I'm not comparing Bruce Lee to Muhammad Ali, I'm just opposing that point you made by using something that even Bruce Lee said.

:)

But then again, this is all hypothetical so whatever... :P

I do agree with you that just cause boxers are boxers, that doesn't mean they're legs are vulernable.

But about that Ali statement, I don't believe Lee ever said Muhammad Ali would beat him in a fight. True, he did study Ali's fights and his incredible foot work, but upon looking through "Jeet Kune do: Bruce Lee's commentaries on the martial way" Bruce himself says "to tell the truth, i could beat anybody in the world." lol and I do recall hearing in a documentary that Lee's dream fight would be against Ali and that it would be very close.

But that's beside the point. God knows Tyson can fight dirty and he knows how to street fight, I just believe that Lee's combined speed, technique and his ability to channel all of his power to a single point in his body just before contact, would be enough to take out tyson. Plus, Lee is an even dirtier fighter. :)

[AssFace]

I disagree about a 135lb man not being able to do anything to a 200 lb man. Because Bruce Lee has DONE that before. Some people train thier muscles to be slim but INCREDIBLY powerful. Just because Mike Tyson trains his muscles to be all bulgy don't mean he is stronger than someone with lesser mass in all proportions.

I'd give this to Lee, because Lee can use more styles than Tyson, while tyson is mainly boxing/sf style, Lee mixed his martial arts into a style of his own where it's real hard to break through.

[Twizted]

http://www.templewingchun.com/new/twcvideos.html

There's some footage of Lee doing his one inch punch on the bottom of the page (just right clic and save if it doesnt play, not great quality. I know from this angle it looks more like a push, but with officials on hand, it was deemed a punch, and the man recieving did not jump or move in anyway to help Lee. As you can see, Lee throws a few false punches so that the man can't lean with the punch or intentionally fly back. All of that force was from Lee. I might add that even a push with one arm from a 135lb man would have trouble moving a 215lb man, as I believe his ooponent was. Lee was absolutely amazing.

[Jedi Mind Tricks]

Correction, Bruce Lee said he would lose in a fight to Muhammad Ali, if he were confined to fighting in a specific controlled manner. i.e. if Lee was restricted to using only fists or if they were in an extremely confined enviroment.

I apologise, my mistake. :)

I still think Tyson would beat him. :P

[Mangarf]

Bruce Lee is the man

[Kabuto_o]

Bruce lee would probably win. Big advantage if he can kick and do whatever he wants while tyson only can use his fists. So it is pretty obvious...

[bluewolf]

burce was a great fighter you cant take that away from him. back in those days (especialy i hong kong) you could not make claims or act to be such a great fighter without every one and their momma wanting to take a swing on you just to see if its true. he often had to fight duels with this or that guy trying to make a name for himself and he could not back down from most of them.

having said that.

Mike tyson was a living wonder during his prime. I am not talking about the sappy piece of chit that walks into the rings these days. I am talking about the man who was managed by the scrappy old white guy who treated him like a son and the only man tyson ever really respected.

in those days tyson was a beast. he has strength and incredible speed. as fast and as strong as bruce lee was he had one great weakness to his fighting style. he was so fast he often relied on getting the hit in first. meaning he and his opponent would trade blows but bruce would land a stronger hit in a better target even if his opponent started his attack first. ... that would not work with mike tyson in his prime. because even if you could get the hit in first mike tyson could still rattle your skull with a glancing blow.

... at the same time if bruce lee truely strategized a bar room fight and was able to dodge the heavy blows from tyson for a good 10 to 15 mins straight he MIGHT have a chance. but in any organized form of combat or if he did not fully strategize the battle with the intent of outlasting tyson then bruce would simply be crushed.

make no mistake. big does NOT equal slow. that is a sterio type that people create to present a dream of a balanced world. its like automaticaly saying that blond = stupid.

[zeoblade]

Li Xiao Long has Gongfu, make no mistake, understand Gongfu and you'll see what I mean. Sensitivity, awareness and control are his advantage to take Tyson's offence just as robustness, size and mass is Tyson's way of taking Li's offence. In the end I'd rather Li's strategy convenient Tyson's strategy is, it's just easier and especially after a few consecutive connections, being robust isn't effective anymore.

In any fight especially Gongfu you may not know the outcome until the very end but no good fighter walks into a place where they can't get out. We always think many moves ahead and strive for victory. That's Li's advantage.

Big is off the mark power but big carries other responsibilities that are detrimental like lack of agility, larger energy investment and therefore wastage. But do remember one thing, Tyson is sport-orientated, Li is self defence. That's why it's unfair to Tyson despite the different weight divisions.

[iaido]

Mike Tyson wins this. Bruce Lee may be faster, but it's only a matter of time before Tyson catches him against the ropes. Even the fastest guy is bound to get hit at least once, and being punched by Tyson is like getting hit by a sledgehammer.

The only way I could see Lee winning this if he lands a groin shot or is able to effectively take out Tyson's knee which is plausible, considering that it is what Lee trained for; hit first, hit hard, hit below the belt.

Tyson has about 100 pounds on Lee as well. This is not just some fat guy, Tyson is pretty fast too. Even Ali gets hit repeatedly by much slower guys such as Liston and Foreman.

Those of you who think that Lee can dodge every single of Tyson's attacks have never fought before, either on the street or competitively. I'm being serious. I don't think many of you even seen a real fight, it's not pretty like in the movies where somebody is able to block and dodge every technique. Mike Tyson had some of the best combos in his prime. The greatest martial artist/boxer won't be able to defend against every blow from a well-timed counter against a professional.

[zeoblade]

I believe I have said this before but in the world of Gongfu, speed defines the winner. Combining speed, power, strategy Tyson will have a difficult time trying to use his size to corner Li and may end up on the ropes himself if in a ring, especially with such a large target area. No one will know for sure this is only speculation. I also said that Li is self defence and Tyson is sport so it's unfair for Tyson so below the belt or not if you want to put Li in conditions where Tyson is strong and will win then obviously you find what you are looking for. However, Gongfu is not constraint and is the larger world outside.

Whereas people that are debating speed and size, you have to understand human movement first. That's why Li is special because he takes the value out of being big.

Of course Li cannot dodge all, anyone that has experience knows you cannot dodge all hits in a fight but to block and control powerful blows of someone that is larger than you, especially the conitioned Li, is not as hard as everyone thinks. I agree Tyson was good at countering however, Li is the counter specialist.

[iaido]

It seems none of you guys have actually been in a real fight or have fought competitively so let me set a few things straight.

In a fight, it's quick, and it's dirty. No matter how fast somebody is, they're bound to get hit. It's not like the movies where someone can block and dodge all of his opponent's techniques. Mike Tyson has some of the best combos in boxing history. Tyson throws 3 and even 6 punch combos and at least a few of them are going to land. Tyson isn't that slow himself.

If someone as slow as Foreman or Liston can land punches on Ali, then Tyson can hit Lee. The question is, can Lee survive a punch from Tyson? Probably not. Would Tyson survive a punch from Lee? Probably.

The only way Lee can win this is if he kicks him in the groin or takes out his knee which is plausible, since Lee trained specifically for those techniques.

With all due respect to Bruce Lee, he isn't all that powerful. He punches hard, but Tyson punches harder. It is physically impossible for a 140 pound person to hit harder than a heavyweight champion when their punching technique is about the same. Actually, Tyson's punching technique allows for a more powerful punch (albeit some loss in speed).

Tyson hits light a sledgehammer.

Bruce Lee hitting like a car @ 35 mph IS JUST PROPAGANDA. If there is one martial artist that has more propaganda surrounding him, it's Lee. Anyone who has taken physics knows it's impossible for a punch to have the same force as a car moving at that speed. Hell, if you work out the calculations, a car moving at 10 mph would have more force behind it.

here's some physics 101

Force = Mass * Acceleration

While a person has more acceleration than a car, a car has definately more mass. It's not that hard to figure out.

Now, a car moving at 5 mph won't hurt a person as much as a peron can roll, dissapating some force which is why a punch would hurt more.

[iaido]

I believe I have said this before but in the world of Gongfu, speed defines the winner. Combining speed, power, strategy Tyson will have a difficult time trying to use his size to corner Li and may end up on the ropes himself if in a ring, especially with such a large target area. No one will know for sure this is only speculation. I also said that Li is self defence and Tyson is sport so it's unfair for Tyson so below the belt or not if you want to put Li in conditions where Tyson is strong and will win then obviously you find what you are looking for. However, Gongfu is not constraint and is the larger world outside.

Whereas people that are debating speed and size, you have to understand human movement first. That's why Li is special because he takes the value out of being big.

Of course Li cannot dodge all, anyone that has experience knows you cannot dodge all hits in a fight but to block and control powerful blows of someone that is larger than you, especially the conitioned Li, is not as hard as everyone thinks. I agree Tyson was good at countering however, Li is the counter specialist.
It makes me laugh every time I hear the "combat" and "sports" argument. Sports martial arts can be more dangerous than traditional martial arts (with the exception of weapons-based arts obviously). Why? They are always undergoing refinement and improvement so people can WIN. Most of the "traditional" martial arts have stopped refining since the 1900s which is unlike the classical martial arts which were developed in a time of war.

If you study classical martial art history, you can see they took on a sports training regiment. They constantly sparred, they constantly challenged different schools/ryus/gyms/etc. and were evolving. Since this is a Naruto forum, I'll use a Japanese example involving swordsmen. The Japanese samurai fought Portuguese sailors. The Portuguese sailors obviously used to thrust more often given their weapon and fencing style. Cutlasses were indeed used but many Portuguese, especially the officers used sabers. Slashing is used but thrusting is used a lot more in sabre-fencing than it is in kenjutsu. A thrust in kenjutsu does exist in many ryus but 99% of its techniques are slashes. That is what the katana was designed for. It is a fundamental rule of kenjutsu/iaijutsu to slash first. You counter an attack with a slash of your own. Both the Japanese and the Portuguese gained notoriety for their skills. To adapt, the Japanese began to use more parries versus attacking in order to counter the much faster weapons of the Portuguese and the Portuguese began to keep their distance from the attack range of the katana.

You can even use the UFC and Japan's Pride FC as an example of how bad some "traditional" martial arts have gotten. IMO, the UFC and Pride are what the people of old used to do which is train to win at whatever cost necessary. That means going out of boundaries, experimenting, and finding out what works for everyone. That is the foundation of Bruce Lee's philosophy of Jeet Kune Do. However, that concept wasn't created by Bruce Lee. It happened centuries and even thousands of years before him. Bruce Lee merely pushed that philosophy forward in modern times.

Before you discredit the UFC and Pride, you have to look at Bruce Lee's training program. It included boxing from a gym. He also LOVED grappling, training with one of the best judoka of the time, "Judo Gene" who also gives credit on Bruce's amazing abilities to pick things up.

Look at his training partner Dan Inosanto. I've trained with Dan Inosanto in muay thai for a week in San Francisco. Humble and despite his credentials, he acts like a student and just loves to train.

I mean no disrespect to Bruce Lee, he is without a doubt one of the greatest martial artists of this century. But he understands his limits.

[iaido]

As for Bruce Lee's one and three inch punch, he didn't even learn it correctly. He taught himself watching the senior students in Hong Kong. The technique is only taught to senior members and Bruce Lee, although a very talented student wasn't a senior member by the time he left for the US. According to advanced wing chun students, his technique was improvised and so-so. His power was formidable but most advanced students can match or beat his power. Bruce Lee was basically the real-life version of a combination of Neji and Sasuke, who taught himself the technique after witnessing it.

Bruce Lee is one hell of a guy but I'm going to brag, I think I'm as every bit as quick as he is in a fight. I really can't say, but you can't tell from watching the films. Not only were the camcorders he used in Hong Kong and Thailand horrible back in the day, but his editors also cut a few frames from each scene making it look faster. Many of his nunchaku scenes were that way.

Bruce Lee also happened to study under my grandfather's friend who was in the Game of Death... Yeah, the guy with the golden belt known as the "grappler", the famous hapkido expert.

Bruce Lee is awesome, but not invincible. He's been hit before, even by untrained people like Kareem Abdul Jabbar (in real life).

[iaido]

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html

The article above is very bias obviously and tries to discredit him even though the author claims to be a "friend of the family" but happens to be the ex-wife of Linda. Yet, he still makes some compelling points.


Physical strength. Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears
he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength
training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using
95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition
maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the
25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males
(Hatfield, 1993).


Lee's upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood
from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal.
Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong,
Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This
would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would
place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a
training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion,
between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee's training.
Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to
its maximum potential.

Conclusion - Below-average lower body strength, excellent upper-body strength

That really isn't that hard, I've personally have been in the 100 percentile for the three essential lifts, the squat, the deadlift, and bench. It's not that hard an obtainable feat as high school freshman can achieve that goal. Compare that to Tyson who was benching 300 pounds as a 14 year old when he was merely 170. Now strength isn't the most important aspect in fighting, but strength training CANNOT be avoided. ALL amateur, Olympic, and professional athletes use some sort of weight training be in modern times. Contrary to belief, you won't have huge muscles by strength training. Most athletes train for endurance (low weight, high reps) or strength (lots of reps, heavy weights, low reps, lots of rest in between) rather than a bodybuilding workout (which is usually 3 sets of 8-12 with 60-85% of the ORM). To get big mucles, you have to consume over 7000 calories daily, train for bodybuilding for years, have excellent genetics, have supporting bone structure, and use steroids.



Aerobic capacity. Lee was known to advocate running as the best
cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15
minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case,
this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace
equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2
max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual's
maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.

In contrast to Lee's estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study
published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62
(Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite
kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a
person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious
notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon.
Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did
Bruce Lee.

I haven't taken an official VO2 test with the inclining treadmill and all that, but I run 2 miles in 11:42 (usually ~5:50 split), 3 miles sub-18 minutes, and I haven't ran 5 miles recently but I usually ran sub 7-minute splits for 5+ miles. I'm not even a professional fighter or an endurance athlete and my times aren't even that special in comparison to some of the guys I know (okay, they aren't fighters but XC/track guys) who pull in sub 16:00 3-miles. Then you look at the NCAA Division I numbers... Sub 15:00 :blink

If you look at the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test), his 15:00 2-miler would give him a run score of 72 for the 17-21 age group (the standard age group if you want to get into special operations). On the PRT (Navy's test), if you use his 7:30 split, it would give him a score of 60. If Lee put out on the 1.5, I predict it'd give him around a 70 or so. It merely places him in the "good" category. For the 3-mile run that the USMC uses, he'd have a score of 73.


Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled
no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of
his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone.
Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but
is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective
sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning
if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in
Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but
would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood
court?

No doubt Lee was a badass, but it's true he has never competed. It's true that he won school yard fights on rooftops and he easily beat the extras that challenged him on the set, but beating an extra and being a heavyweight champion like Tyson are two totally different things.

[ageofdarkness]

If Tyson can get one good hard punch on Bruce Lee, then he wins because Bruce Lee could die from that.

I believe that Bruce Lee is fast enough to block and intercept Tyson's punches. Tyson might even fear Bruce Lee in a real fight. He is fast, but is really not fast enough to hit Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee's blocks are instant and effective against any powerful punch. He should be quick enough to hit Tyson multiple times until he is down.

Also, Bruce Lee is trained to use his feet. He knows how to kick. It's too fast for Tyson, and the kick will be used at the safest and best time.

With the major advantage of using his feet, Bruce Lee should win.

[iaido]

The question is whether Bruce can not block/dodge single punches but combos. Even the best martial artist/boxer in the world won't be able to dodge every punch from every combo, combos are just too fast. It's bam bam bam bam. The aggressor always has the advantage.

If Tyson closes in and gets a hold of him, his strength should keep Lee in check. Tyson has the advantage in two of the four ranges of combat (my personal ranges) while Bruce only has one advantage. Long-range striking which involves kicks and punches (Tyson has the longer reach) but I'm giving that to Lee. Tyson has the advantage with the regular striking and clinch range. Tyson has the advantage in the clinch position with more training, expertise, and strength. I don't know about ground fighting as it can go either way. In a street brawl however with a guy not trained in groundfighting or wrestling, the heavier guy usually has the advantage. Speed is not going to help you that much on your back as it would on your feet.

[Jef88]

tyson is to slow for bruce but if tyson can land a hit bruce is done for it
but if tyson is stuck in a combo of bruce he's also done for it
i'm more of a bruce lee fan so i gooo with bruce lee

[Gunshin]

I don't even llike posting here anymore, but this is ridiculous.

Who has Bruce Lee beat? Who has Tyson beat? I bet nobody here has even seen a real Bruce Lee fight thats not in movies. All this theoretical bs people are pulling is stupid. Gene Lebell manhandled Bruce three times. Not once. Not twice. Three times. Gene is not a lighting quick guy. Tyson is faster than Gene Lebell. So why do people think that Bruce is going to pull a fist of the north star on Tyson? All he has to do is clinch Bruce ala Gene Lebell, and finish him.

And Bruce cannot KO Tyson. Tyson has fought 100's of guys who hit harder than Bruce. And please don't mention the 1-Inch punch which even Bruce's closest friends Gene Lebell and Danny Inosanto know is a parlor trick which involves punching the solar plexus from an inch. I've seen the video of the 1-inch and it does not live up to the hype. And as for kicking, in order for Bruce to kick Tyson he has to give up balance. All Tyson has to do is rush Bruce when Bruce is prepared to kick, from there he can:

a. clinch followed by knee/uppercut/hook/bite <-- lol
b. take him down ala Gene Lebell and pound the shit out of him
c. Give him a mean straight in the middle of his kick

If people are going to say Bruce wins than back it up with proof instead of the Hollywood Propoganda used to help sell Bruce Lee movies. For christ sakes, Bruce Lee said that William Cheung is the greatest strongest martialartist on the planet, and he got an ass kicking from the scrub Emin Bozetepe.

Bruce's style is primarily WT, and have any of you guys seem WT? Now, to those of you who have, have you watched boxing? Better yet, have any of you guys watched Tyson?

PS. To you guys make it sound like Bruce will move like Spider Man for 30 minutes. You do realize that if you move at a fast pace for awhile, your cardiovascular will shit and you'll be like a fish out of water. Furthermore, have any of you guys fought a boxer? Boxing is the most underrated MA. Those guys have the best upperbody striking defense period, and seeing how Tyson studied MT, he undoubtbly has a shin block, and thats all he needs to deal with kicks (actualy he doesn't even need that).

Iaido, good post, the only one backed with reasoning and experience.

[iaido]

tyson is to slow for bruce but if tyson can land a hit bruce is done for it
but if tyson is stuck in a combo of bruce he's also done for it
i'm more of a bruce lee fan so i gooo with bruce lee
You think Tyson is slow? Just because he hits hard doesn't mean he's no slow poke. Just because he isn't as fast as Roy Jones Jr. or Muhammed Ali doesn't make him slow either.

And just for clarification of Gunshin for you all, Gene Lebell is "Judo Gene" from my posts and they were very good friends.

[bluewolf]

If you notice. the people giving it to tyson are people with more real world fighting experiance. ... i am sure some one will post "how do you know how much fighing experiance i have" well its kind of the same way you can tell i am not an english major college grad. you can simply tell by the way they talk.

most of the people going for bruce learned everything they know about fighting by watching movies and anime. not saying these people are stupid in any way. i am simply saying that there are few movies that have ever shown anything aproximating a real fight. even boxing movies do not show real boxing.

bruce simply couldnt beat tyson without excecive prior planning and good luck.

[iaido]

I don't even llike posting here anymore, but this is ridiculous.

Who has Bruce Lee beat? Who has Tyson beat? I bet nobody here has even seen a real Bruce Lee fight thats not in movies. All this theoretical bs people are pulling is stupid. Gene Lebell manhandled Bruce three times. Not once. Not twice. Three times. Gene is not a lighting quick guy. Tyson is faster than Gene Lebell. So why do people think that Bruce is going to pull a fist of the north star on Tyson? All he has to do is clinch Bruce ala Gene Lebell, and finish him.

And Bruce cannot KO Tyson. Tyson has fought 100's of guys who hit harder than Bruce. And please don't mention the 1-Inch punch which even Bruce's closest friends Gene Lebell and Danny Inosanto know is a parlor trick which involves punching the solar plexus from an inch. I've seen the video of the 1-inch and it does not live up to the hype. And as for kicking, in order for Bruce to kick Tyson he has to give up balance. All Tyson has to do is rush Bruce when Bruce is prepared to kick, from there he can:

a. clinch followed by knee/uppercut/hook/bite <-- lol
b. take him down ala Gene Lebell and pound the shit out of him
c. Give him a mean straight in the middle of his kick

If people are going to say Bruce wins than back it up with proof instead of the Hollywood Propoganda used to help sell Bruce Lee movies. For christ sakes, Bruce Lee said that William Cheung is the greatest strongest martialartist on the planet, and he got an ass kicking from the scrub Emin Bozetepe.

Bruce's style is primarily WT, and have any of you guys seem WT? Now, to those of you who have, have you watched boxing? Better yet, have any of you guys watched Tyson?

PS. To you guys make it sound like Bruce will move like Spider Man for 30 minutes. You do realize that if you move at a fast pace for awhile, your cardiovascular will shit and you'll be like a fish out of water. Furthermore, have any of you guys fought a boxer? Boxing is the most underrated MA. Those guys have the best upperbody striking defense period, and seeing how Tyson studied MT, he undoubtbly has a shin block, and thats all he needs to deal with kicks (actualy he doesn't even need that).

Iaido, good post, the only one backed with reasoning and experience.
Agreed.

Emin Botzepe is a punk though who just charged in and took down Cheung but hey, you got to be prepared for those types of situations.

I also doubt that anyone has ever seen a real boxing match or a real Bruce Lee fight. I've only seen bits and pieces of Bruce Lee fights or photos where he fights his celebrity students. Kareem Abdul Jabbar admits to having hit Lee and also getting hit back. No matter how fast you are, everyone's bound to get hit if you're aggressive (and sober). Better yet, I don't think they've seen a real UFC or Pride fight yet. Seeing that this is Narutoforums, some of you should really start watching Pride fights (because it's Japanese). My personal favorites are Sakuraba, Henderson (I trained at Team Quest so obviously), and Noguiera. Silva is a distant second. My personal opinion is that Pride has better fighters than the UFC although I've the deepest respects for Cotoure, Lindland, Lidell, and a few other great guys.

The UFC and Pride isn't about your brawlers. Very few "streetfighters" and "brawlers" make it to that level. It requires a certain asset of skills that a brawler can't discover in a million years (although they know a few tricks up their sleeves). The brawlers may have a presence in small, local shows but they rarely make it to the UFC or Pride.

I've witnessed and fought in local shows to know the difference in skill level. Even trained local MMAists drop their hands once in a while, some get angry and start throwing haymakers. Others just punch unrelentlessly (and needlessly) which don't land and get tired. Tyson in his prime was none of those things. Without a doubt Tyson gets angry but that in his case, it helps him. It helps him throw combos non-stop and with a barrage of punches like that, you can't do much but clinch at best.

Like I've said, the only way Lee could win this is with his speed and agression, hit first in the groin or take out his knee. Easier said than done, but again, that's what Lee trained for. If he hits it, any guy with a set of balls would drop.

The perception of Bruce Lee here on Narutoforums and the real Bruce Lee are totally different. Bruce Lee knows that his movie style is not his fighting style. He said it, Dan Inosanto said it, Tim Wong or whatever his name was said it, Gene Lebell said it, Chuck Norris said it... Bruce Lee, along with his wing chun also looked at kyokushin (full-contact) karate. He studied judo under Gene Lebell and Gene testifies that he was a quick learner who loved grappling. Again, he also studied boxing and looked at muay thai.

If any of you has bothered to read The Tao of Jeet Kune Do and some of his other books written by Bruce himself, you'll see all hos observations and drawings of wing chun, the different kung fu styles, the different karate styles, judo, jujutsu, boxing, muay thai, Western fencing, kempo, and TKD which he called Korean karate. He really isn't that different from today's Pride and UFC fighters.

It's interesting to note the difference in opinion on a manga forum as it is to a martial arts forum.

[IronFist Alchemist]

LOL, thank you Gunshin and iaido :amuse

I knew this thread was gunna "degrade" into Bruce Lee >>> God or whatever, lol. The man was a modern MMAist, one of the most influential people in MA history, but extremely overrated!! Tyson's size, speed and power would've tore through Lee like a child...a well trained child, but you get the picture! If Lee's grappling were half decent however...just take Tyson down and he's a fish outta water.

[Gunshin]

edit- oops

[Hyuuga-YoungIsh]

Are you kidding me Bruce Lee all the way he's the greatest of all time put him against Ali or something thats a better fight IMO

[CABLE]

Muhammed Ali vs Bruce would be better as Bruce really looked up to him cuz of his rhythem and speed.

[Gunshin]

Are you kidding me Bruce Lee all the way he's the greatest of all time put him against Ali or something thats a better fight IMO
I can fully understand you stating that Bruce is one of the best Martial Arts *Philosophers* of all time, however, i'd love to hear your reasoning for the "Greatest of All Time".

Please list who Bruce beaten in his base Wing Tsun.
Please list all the titles/accomplishments Bruce won in his base Wing Tsun.
Please list who Bruce beat in his time.
Please list Bruces advantages over a much heavier, stronger, and fast proven fighter with great conditioning and a strong chin.

Bruce was a good philosopher, but "Greatest of All TIme"? He wasn't even the greatest of his time, Gene Lebell was. I can list over a hundred real fighters from 1901 to 2005 who were better than Bruce.

[EMPRA]

Bruce lee is to0 fast for Tyson, he wont be able to see Lee's moves...

[Gunshin]

Bruce lee is to0 fast for Tyson, he wont be able to see Lee's moves...
And what do you base this off of? Game of Death or Enter the Dragon? LOL

Gene Lebell is not as fast as Tyson and a lesser boxer (Milo Savage) than Tyson gave Gene a close call. So if Gene can keep up with Bruce's speed and beat him multiple times, why can't Tyson, a man faster than Lebell, keep up with Lee's Hollywood propogated speed?

[IronFist Alchemist]

LOL, leave it be Gunshin!! :P **check ya Inbox**

[iaido]

Are you kidding me Bruce Lee all the way he's the greatest of all time put him against Ali or something thats a better fight IMO
Lee wasn't the greatest fighter of all time because he's never competed or earned a rank. Now I can tell you that rank sometimes isn't a gauge of skill and ability but it does give you a general understanding. I'm confident I have a much quicker, faster, and more penetrating shot than 90% of all BJJ black belts as I come from a state (collegiate) and national (greco) level [doesn't mean I'm a champion or even ranked by any means] but 99.9% of them would choke me out in less than 3 minutes in a submission wrestling match.

Wing chun does have a system of seniority. Bruce Lee never learned wing chun long enough to be a senior student which is why he was never formally taught the one-inch and three-inch punch.

If rank doesn't matter, then it's your competitive background... Muay thai doesn't have belts but they do have rankings... The champion for a particular stadium is #1 and then the list goes on. It's pretty simple to follow. You beat lots of people to move up the ladder, beat the #1 guy, and then you're #1.

Same with boxing although it gets a bit more complicated due to politics, especially with title fights and with the different sanctioning bodies.

Kyokushin karate has ranks as in belts but a nidan can beat a sandan and be #1 in a tournament.

Bruce Lee has beaten up... Movie extras and school challenges.

Again, Bruce Lee was a great philosopher but his ideas weren't even new. WWII combatives expert Fairburn, Applegate, etc. preceeded him. They took their ideas off Miyamoto Musashi, Sun Tzu, and the Greeks who preceeded them by hundreds and thousands of years. The only difference is that the people of old never thought anything much of it, they just did it anyway because they had to.

In case everyone wanted to want my two cents, the greatest martial artist of all time in my opinion would be Miyamoto Musashi. Today's MA and MMA competitors are indeed tough, but nobody has to make decisions that would cost them their life in an instant.

[iaido]

Bruce lee is to0 fast for Tyson, he wont be able to see Lee's moves...
Muhammed Ali moves quicker than Bruce. Foreman moves slower than Tyson. Foreman beat up Muhammed Ali pretty bad in Rumble in the Jungle. Yeah, rope-a-dope, but Muhammed definately felt it the very next day.

So if you look at it logically, if a slower guy than Tyson (Foreman) can hit a faster guy than Bruce (Ali), how is it that a faster guy than Foreman (Tyson) can't hit a slower guy than Ali (Bruce)?

Speed: Ali > Lee > Tyson > Foreman

Yet,

Foreman Hit Lee. I can't spell it out any further for you guys. Not to mention that Tyson has the longer reach so if you're primarily exchanging punches, some of the speed advantage is lost. Muhammed Ali did have a reach advantage over some of his opponents and combined with his speed and footwork, made his jabs very deadly.

The reach advantage the opponent has can play to your advantage if you have a very fast takedown or throw.

[Hyuuga-YoungIsh]

So what are you guys trying to say bruce lee wasnt all that great?

[Gunshin]

So what are you guys trying to say bruce lee wasnt all that great?
As a fighter? Yeah, he wasn't that great. He's the baby of a 70-80's martial art propoganda machine. He sure as hell wasn't the greatest of his time. You compare what he did to his friend Gene Lebell a mere Judoka who did not cross train. Not only did Gene Lebell beat Bruce on different occasions, but he traveled outside his own art seeking to fight the best. He was also reknowned and accomplished in his base martial art Judo. Bruce lee was not as active as Lebell, and wasn't accomplished or ranked in his base martial art Wing Tsun.

As a philosopher Bruce was better, however, all his ideas and concepts were done before in various different countries under various different languages. The only difference is Bruce brought it to the common bumpkin who doesn't read.

So yes, Bruce was not that great. In this century I can name over 100 fighters/martial artist who are better than him. Hell, his friend/student Danny Inosanto is a more accomplished better martial artist than Bruce.

[copyninja_kakashi]

a boxer would always lose to a martial arts master
so my vote goes to Bruce lee bitches

[iaido]

a boxer would always lose to a martial arts master
so my vote goes to Bruce lee bitches
That's a foolish statement on many accounts.

1. Boxing is a martial art. In case you didn't know, kung fu is merely Chinese boxing. The boxing you refer to is a Western martial art. Martial arts aren't limited to just East Asia.

2. The better fighter would win 90% of the time. Those of you who've fought on the street, in a cage, on the mat, or in a ring know that luck definately is a big part of fighting.

3. What's a martial arts master? Does it have to be an old Asian guy with a white beard or mustache?

4. What credentials or experience do you have to make such a statement? Where in your 14 years of existence do you base your statement on?

5. Have you ever seen a martial arts "master" fight a boxer? If so, how many times?

6. What about a kung fu "master" versus a boxing "master"?

7. This ties in with #2. Do you realize that you can't win every time no matter who you fight? I've lost in a muay thai rules kickboxing match against a guy I KOed in the 1st or 2nd round three times. Shit happens.

8. If you really held to Bruce Lee's ideals, do you realize that you're basically pissing on his grave with your statement?

9. Everyone who's studied martial arts and has actually been in a fight knows this... Style matters not, we have a head, two arms, a body, and two legs. We can use our weapons any way we want to but there are only so many ways anyone can fight. Emphasis on #2, the better fighter would win regardless of style.

10. I owned you bitch.


Like I've said, Bruce Lee was responsible for bringing classical philosophies to the US and making it mainstream. I respect Bruce and I've been to his grave and paid my respects. He studied philosophy in the same school I attend. As a martial artist, I'd say he's average. He has good speed and punching power, but that can only get so far. He didn't make a name for himself in wing chun or any martial art for that matter. His accomplishments in wing chun, the only art he studied under a formal instructor William Cheung who was the main instructor for Yip Man's school, is comparable to a TKD/karate blue or brown belt or a BJJ blue or purple belt.

And realize that only in the US, there's some sort of elitist attitude over styles. Most people who make those claims don't know what they're talking about. I commonly run into people who say, "I study kung fu" or "I study karate" and when I ask them what style, they give me a blank face. :eyeroll

The only other places I've witnessed or heard of such an elitist, arrogant attitude is in certain places in Hong Kong and some of the very classical ryus in Okinawa. The classical ryus in Okinawa can have that attitude because nobody uses kenjutsu, kyujutsu, etc. anymore (but they are badasses when it comes to jujutsu and aikijutsu). Other Chinese and Japanese people are very open to all techniques that work. Most of the time, you really can't say where the technique came from.

For instance, BJJ today resembles 1950s judo. A lot of the techniques that people claim to have originated in Brazil were practiced in Japan centuries earlier. For locking techniques and submission techniques found in hapkido, I find a lot of the same techniques in silat, a Middle Eastern martial art when the two had no connection with each other. Each can claim they "created" the move but who the hell honestly cares? Do you care that calculus originated in Europe? Do Americans, Latin Americans, Africans, and Asians have some sort of prejudice against calculus? No, because it works. When it comes to fighting, people should approach martial arts with the same attitude if not more so as it can involve life and death.

I've studied muay thai in Thailand (Fairtex camp) for two weeks. There's a TKD school nearby and a lot of the Fairtex trainers are friends with the TKD instructors and a lot of them cross-train.

[Delta Shell]

^Wow, you could have stopped at #1....but i'm glad you didn't.

I very much agree with what you and Gunshin are saying, acknowledging that there are restriced ways in which a human can fight effectively (two arms, legs etc) are pretty much Bruce Lee's ideals.

So yeah, Tyson gets my vote..(how i'd like to see him in an mma event...just for the freak show quality of it).

[Gunshin]

I've studied muay thai in Thailand (Fairtex camp) for two weeks. There's a TKD school nearby and a lot of the Fairtex trainers are friends with the TKD instructors and a lot of them cross-train.
All good points.

Off topic... Wow--- I guess that makes us Fairtex brothers. How long you train with them?

Muay Thai - Enn/Jongsanan Fairtex
MMA - Jake Shields
BJJ - I prefered Ceasars over FX, but I trained a bit with Uyenoyama too.
Boxing - Paris Alexander

[iaido]

All good points.

Off topic... Wow--- I guess that makes us Fairtex brothers. How long you train with them?

Muay Thai - Enn/Jongsanan Fairtex
MMA - Jake Shields
BJJ - I prefered Ceasars over FX, but I trained a bit with Uyenoyama too.
Boxing - Paris Alexander
I was in Thailand for three weeks. Two weeks of training, one week of sightseeing.

[IronFist Alchemist]

You've trained with Jake Shields?? How is the man??

[Gunshin]

I was in Thailand for three weeks. Two weeks of training, one week of sightseeing.
Sweet. Thailand rocks, i'd love to go back there and train.

You've trained with Jake Shields?? How is the man??
I trained with him when Fairtex was under Guingona and Alex Gong's mother. He trained MMA classes, and was a superb grappler. When MTV came over to do a shoot with Randy Couture and some kid who wanted to meet him, Jake and Randy sparred, and Shields caught Randy in two Guileteens, however, Couture was able to power out of them (this was off camera of course). Shields is the man. (So is Randy)

[Zhongda]

hmm this is Mike tyson.. the worlds most powefull boxer aka the Human tank.
If he lands one Blow to Bruce lee he would send him into next week..
u all asume that bruce lee is 2 fast 4 tyson.. well trust me boxers r pretty fast also.

Tyson would definatley win

[IronFist Alchemist]

LOL, poor Randy! :D That must've been great! did you get to roll with him??

[Jedi Mind Tricks]

a boxer would always lose to a martial arts master
so my vote goes to Bruce lee bitches

So much ignorance. You obviously know nothing about martial arts.

Iaido said what I would have said but he/she much more.

I just wanted to add my opinion for that comment, even though Iaido pretty much tore your opinion apart.

[RaitoRyuukashin]

I usually read then vote but I voted because i thought it was obvious then I see Bruce Lee winning ......wth is up with you guys.... I see these battledome fights are based on popularity.

[Kamendex]

I usually read then vote but I voted because i thought it was obvious then I see Bruce Lee winning ......wth is up with you guys.... I see these battledome fights are based on popularity.

This is one instance where you SHOULD'VE read....

[RaitoRyuukashin]

This is one instance where you SHOULD'VE read....

yea and see how noone listens to reason. -_-

[Gunshin]

LOL, poor Randy! :D That must've been great! did you get to roll with him??
Randy Couture? Nope. Only the guy who MTV was doing a show on and Shields. After that Randy left, but I met him again at the other Fairtex in San Fransisco.

Maybe it's my imagination, but Randy comes off to me as being a timid/shy guy. Maybe he just doesn't like California, or the fan he was supposed to meet. lol

[iaido]

Sweet. Thailand rocks, i'd love to go back there and train.


I trained with him when Fairtex was under Guingona and Alex Gong's mother. He trained MMA classes, and was a superb grappler. When MTV came over to do a shoot with Randy Couture and some kid who wanted to meet him, Jake and Randy sparred, and Shields caught Randy in two Guileteens, however, Couture was able to power out of them (this was off camera of course). Shields is the man. (So is Randy)
I've trained with Team Quest as I lived near the area when I was in high school. Randy is an absolute machine. He's 40-something yet he's in incredible shape. Matt Lindland is balding yet he kicks ass. I've never struck a conversation with Couture but I can tell he's an incredible guy. Modest, quiet, willing to sign autographs, etc. A real class act.

[Gunshin]

I've trained with Team Quest as I lived near the area when I was in high school. Randy is an absolute machine. He's 40-something yet he's in incredible shape. Matt Lindland is balding yet he kicks ass. I've never struck a conversation with Couture but I can tell he's an incredible guy. Modest, quiet, willing to sign autographs, etc. A real class act.
Matt Lindland is definately a character. And, yes, Randy is a very quiet guy. I got a few words with him, but it was the usual "make conversation 101" crap. Seeing him in action though was a real treat. You're lucky to be able to train with Quest. They produce a lot of quality fighters.

[iaido]

Matt Lindland is definately a character. And, yes, Randy is a very quiet guy. I got a few words with him, but it was the usual "make conversation 101" crap. Seeing him in action though was a real treat. You're lucky to be able to train with Quest. They produce a lot of quality fighters.
I can't train with Quest anymore due to location. One guy you should take notice of is Chris Leben, that guy is hilarious and he really is a nice guy despite how The Ultimate Fighter portrays him.

[zeoblade]

Competitive fighting can be dangerous, that is all anyone can say because it is competition. Self-defence is exactly that. People practice for the purpose of practicing for life, competitive fighting doesn't. Not only this but competition has rules, self-defence doesn't. Sparring is what spawned competitive fighting and had to be safe despite the application. The foundation of Jiequando is formless, and he furthered mixed martial arts because he was young and needed to study more. Traditional fighting involves many aspects of fighting just in different ways of executing them.

I won't argue some people have experience in fighting but to claim one is as agile as Li Xiao Long is not becoming of a practioner. Maybe this mentality is common in competitive athletes but not a real practioner. Just to remind some people, that speaking with conviction because of one's experience is different to bignoting.

To try and discredit one to try and prove that Li Xiao Long is not that great as everyone seems may be unnecessary, especially when it may mask the intention to demonstrate one's own abilities. Everyone knows Li Xiao Long is not a god and that he is exceptionally good as well as rare practioner relative to the world population and in history. I agree to claim that he is the greatest ever is unreasonable because everyone is not being taken into account.

Combinations or not, both parties have equal abilities in combinations, however, I would be backing Li because of the element of awareness in regarding to giving and receiving combinations. However, I do agree it is very foolish to say either fighter could keep distance, dodge and block all the time. If it was so then it wouldn't be a fight I would pay to watch, I only speculate that either fighter has no significant dominance over the other.

In conclusion everyone will come to the same problem, you can only guess but you will never know for sure due to the obvious. Li Xiao Long is not as good as some people make him to be, but he is damn good. Mike Tyson is not good as some people make him to be, but he is also damn good in the past. As much as people are trying to be realistic, be realistic and realize that there is only speculation and you can only give your opinion. There is no right answer. However, I do think some people are quite passionate about this topic to prove themselves on narutofan.

[Gunshin]

Zeoblade, No offense, but 85% of your post isn't even relevant to the topic. I thought about going through each paragraph, but it was taking too long. All you had to say was:

I would be backing Li

Because:

a. This is the Battledome.
b. This thread is entitled Bruce Lee vs Mike Tyson.
c. We all know everyone's say is just opinion.

And furthermore, I just want you to know that there is a difference between "discrediting" and "recalling facts". We "recall facts" because it is necessary to gauge who would win a hypothetical battle between two nouns. And this is what this section of the forum, and thread is for.

I could address your subtle insults and accusations, but it's irrelevant to the thread.

[zeoblade]

Zeoblade, No offense...

...but it's irrelevant to the thread.

Neither are the current posts but it doesn't matter. I just hope everyone doesn't waste their own time too much. The information iaido posted about Li Xiao Long was quite informative but that's all it was. I do like how Li Xiao Long made the suan jie gun (I don't know wht you call it in english) popular to the western world

[tajoh111]

What the Heck, I don't know how Bruce Lee could win this. If you guys have seen any Mixed martial arts competition, you would notice that it usually ends up being a ground fight and Mike would smoke Lee there because his physical strength.

Yeah, I also believe there was alot of propaganda involving Lee. But jeeze Mike Tyson knocked out people out in less than 1 minute with gloves on, without gloves Lee would be down for the count in 1 punch. Most martial artist besides mixed martial artist do not special in taking strong hits, they specialize for points and not really trying to knock the other person out.

Tyson would simply bull charge Lee and tackle him to the ground. He would then proceed to punch Lee on the ground and with his head on a hard surface, quickly kill Lee.

Lee only chance is landing a Kick, but Kicks are seriously much harder to land on Mike Tyson, and if Lee doesn't knock mike out with this single kick he is off balance and is gone. People, real fight looks hardly like they do on the big screen or anime, they are alot more ugly. E.g Jet Li would get his ass handed to him by pretty much everyone in the UFC or Pride fighting.

[zeoblade]

What the Heck...

...by pretty much everyone in the UFC or Pride fighting.

Gaining position is far more important than strength in grappling. You save so much energy if you get position than use strength. You can use less energy to do the same work to win.

[Gunshin]

Gaining position is far more important than strength in grappling. You save so much energy if you get position than use strength. You can use less energy to do the same work to win.
Positioning is very improtant, but strength is still a enormous factor. What good is positioning if I can overpower you and reverse any position you achieve?

[zeoblade]

Positioning is very improtant, but strength is still a enormous factor. What good is positioning if I can overpower you and reverse any position you achieve?

Strength is important but you only need so much. What good is strength if your opponent keeps reversing you by using your strength against you? You end up in stalemate.

[Gunshin]

Strength is important but you only need so much. What good is strength if your opponent keeps reversing you by using your strength against you? You end up in stalemate.
You're suggesting that the weaker guy is more skilled than the stronger guy, how is that fair?

[zeoblade]

You're suggesting that the weaker guy is more skilled than the stronger guy, how is that fair?

Of course it's fair. There is balance, dynamic equilibrium. If it was the other way around it would be the same situation but polar opposite. Sounds like bias to me if you ask how is it fair? Picture someone that is always stronger than the opponent and then this person is always better in controlling position. You'll understand what I mean.

[Gunshin]

Of course it's fair. There is balance, dynamic equilibrium. If it was the other way around it would be the same situation but polar opposite. Sounds like bias to me if you ask how is it fair? Picture someone that is always stronger than the opponent and then this person is always better in controlling position. You'll understand what I mean.
Actually no I don't (and I doubt anyone else will in the context of fighting). Because your initial point was underestimating strength. And it is bias, however, it's on your part. In order for your argument to work, the weaker fighter must be more skilled, however that is not always true. So you're being bias in favor of the physicaly weaker opponent.

Either way, that is irrelevant because many times have I seen better grapplers overpowered by stronger grapplers.

Case and point: Bob Sapp vs Tamura. Le Banner vs Akiyama.

Strength and size are enormous factors in grappling period.

[zeoblade]

Actually no I don't. Because your initial point was underestimating strength. And it is bias, however, it's on your part. In order for your argument to work, the weaker fighter must be more skilled, however that is not always true. Either way, that is irrelevant because many times have I seen better grapplers overpowered by stronger grapplers.

Case and point: Bob Sapp vs Tamura.

Strength and size are enormous factors in grappling period.

Haha was it? Your initial point is underestimating position, you focus too much on strength I guess. Let me advise you that your game won't improve unless you change your thinking. I said you only need a little bit of strength, position allows you to use less strength for the same amount of work. I won't argue who is biased or not, the posts speak for themselves. However, you're welcome to edit yours to save face, I don't mind.

[Gunshin]

Haha was it? Your initial point is underestimating position, you focus too much on strength I guess.
Really? Let's read my post again....
Positioning is very improtant, but strength is still a enormous factor.
***Reading and Comprehension***
Let me advise you that your game won't improve unless you change your thinking.
My game is fine, and it's irrelevant to this topic. And I have people who are much more qualified to give me advice. But thanks anyways.
I said you only need a little bit of strength, position allows you to use less strength for the same amount of work.
1. You quoted a person and told him that positioning is more important than strength in a way which undermined strength.

2. I made a example that strength is a very important factor, and that positiong won't help you if your opponent is multiple times stronger.

3. You said that strength is nothing if the weaker opponent can reverse with skill.

4. I said that to assume the weaker person is more skilled is unfair.

5. You made a rant that had nothing to do with the physics of fighting, and have yet to refute this point.

I won't argue who is biased or not, the posts speak for themselves.

It's obvious who is bias here. In your example, you assume that the weaker opponent is more skilled than the stronger one. Thats obviously an unfair analogy. And I don't need to edit my post to "save face". However, I can edit them to *add* content that further proves your undermining of strength wrong.

I gave a solid analogy showing how strength is a huge factor in grappling. I gave two examples along with that where superior grapplers were overwhelmed by pure strength.

You gave:

Of course it's fair. There is balance, dynamic equilibrium. If it was the other way around it would be the same situation but polar opposite.

If anyone needs to edit their post to save face, it's you.

[zeoblade]

Really? Let's read my post again....

...post to save face, it's you.

Read the signature and engrave it into your heart.

Point 4 is the bias I'm refering to and that's why the posts speak for themselves.

Just like certain people (not mentioning whom) try to emphasize both Li Xiao Long and Mike Tyson ren't as good as everyone else makes them to be, I explain that strength isn't important as everyone makes it to be. You need a little strength, that's all.

In this thread I have no desire or need to prove myself unless I deem my need to. Just remember there is more than one way to grapple and there is another part of the world outside your idolized athletes. If you want to continue to be pedantic, be my guest. I won't waste my breath, I hope you don't waste yours.

[iaido]

Competitive fighting can be dangerous, that is all anyone can say because it is competition. Self-defence is exactly that. People practice for the purpose of practicing for life, competitive fighting doesn't. Not only this but competition has rules, self-defence doesn't. Sparring is what spawned competitive fighting and had to be safe despite the application. The foundation of Jiequando is formless, and he furthered mixed martial arts because he was young and needed to study more. Traditional fighting involves many aspects of fighting just in different ways of executing them.

I won't argue some people have experience in fighting but to claim one is as agile as Li Xiao Long is not becoming of a practioner. Maybe this mentality is common in competitive athletes but not a real practioner. Just to remind some people, that speaking with conviction because of one's experience is different to bignoting.

To try and discredit one to try and prove that Li Xiao Long is not that great as everyone seems may be unnecessary, especially when it may mask the intention to demonstrate one's own abilities. Everyone knows Li Xiao Long is not a god and that he is exceptionally good as well as rare practioner relative to the world population and in history. I agree to claim that he is the greatest ever is unreasonable because everyone is not being taken into account.

Combinations or not, both parties have equal abilities in combinations, however, I would be backing Li because of the element of awareness in regarding to giving and receiving combinations. However, I do agree it is very foolish to say either fighter could keep distance, dodge and block all the time. If it was so then it wouldn't be a fight I would pay to watch, I only speculate that either fighter has no significant dominance over the other.

In conclusion everyone will come to the same problem, you can only guess but you will never know for sure due to the obvious. Li Xiao Long is not as good as some people make him to be, but he is damn good. Mike Tyson is not good as some people make him to be, but he is also damn good in the past. As much as people are trying to be realistic, be realistic and realize that there is only speculation and you can only give your opinion. There is no right answer. However, I do think some people are quite passionate about this topic to prove themselves on narutofan.
I'll use my infamous numbered methods to rip you a new asshole.

1. Tell me, what do "martial artists who practice for life" actually do in their training program? I've met a lof of these people and none of them do ANYTHING live or full speed because they claim it's too dangerous. All they do is set patterns where when the attacker does X, you do Y. Great, sport martial artists use the same concept although not as extensively.

2. Sparring is relatively safe compared to street combat. However, the purpose of sparring is to stimulate fighting conditions as closely as you can 1-on-1 on the street.

3. Traditional martial arts does involve of many aspects of fighting. This is nothing new. MMA uses the same principle. The only difference to "traditional" martial artists today is that they no longer need to use it in combat/war and they don't practice in live situations anymore.

4. Never said Bruce Lee wasn't a martial artist. You're using what's called the Straw Man argument in logic. It's where you bring down a misinterpreted and manipulated argument thinking you rebuked the original argument which was Bruce Lee wasn't a great fighter. No doubt he's agile but he has no competition record or any success in his base art, wing chun. At least with Norris, you can tell he was the real deal with not only his TKD 9th degree black belt but with his competition record. Bruce Lee said it himself - martial artists are supposed to fight. Bruce Lee didn't fight. There are very few records of him fighting. The reason why he's so famous is because of his movies, not his philosophies. His Tao of JKD would never have been published were it not for his movies.

5. Both have equal ability in combinations? Bruce Lee has only been studying combinations for a few years. Tyson has been doing since he was a teenager. Situational awareness for combinations? What the hell are you talking about? Tyson has been dishing and receiving combinations his entire life. Bruce Lee received combinations while studying wing chun which was only 6-7 years if I remember and then he had very little formal training after that. His stunts with Lebell and Han Ji Jae were informal and done on a friendly basis which means that Lee never even received a white belt in judo or hapkido. I don't think Bruce Lee's pride would ever allow him to wear a white belt despite his openness.

The remainder of your post, along with most of your post, had nothing concrete. It's all fluff and is meaningless to anyone and everyone. You're basically saying, "How can you tell the Mongols could take out a Panzer division? They never encountered each other and the Mongols were feared and the greatest warriors of their time!" <--- Fluff

[iaido]

Read the signature and engrave it into your heart.

Point 4 is the bias I'm refering to and that's why the posts speak for themselves.

Just like certain people (not mentioning whom) try to emphasize both Li Xiao Long and Mike Tyson ren't as good as everyone else makes them to be, I explain that strength isn't important as everyone makes it to be. You need a little strength, that's all.

In this thread I have no desire or need to prove myself unless I deem my need to. Just remember there is more than one way to grapple and there is another part of the world outside your idolized athletes. If you want to continue to be pedantic, be my guest. I won't waste my breath, I hope you don't waste yours.
My experience with strength is that strength is for when you mess up. Messing up could mean being caught in a bad position, being locked up, not having a good offensive positioning, etc. However, I, like every human, mess up a lot. Even Olympic wrestlers mess up a lot.

Conclusion: Strength is important.

Strength obviously isn't the most important aspect to fighting. A BJJ/judo expert can throw and/or submit much stronger guys because of a difference in skill level. Strength won't help you much if someone any good has a rear-naked choke with hooks locked in (unless you were 8 and fighting someone with no neck and you have T-rex arms).

You need a little strength? What exactly is little strength? You can't say, "If I can bench 225, then that's good enough." First of all, that kind of attitude is asinine. Martial artists should have the attitude that they want to be the best they can be and for the arrogant, the best around.

What negative possible side effects would come from benching 275 from 225? You won't be bulky unless you train for mass, have a strict diet of supplements and calories upwards the 7000 range, have the genes where you're naturally big and pack on mass, and taking steroids. My bench went from 155 to 265 in four years and there are seasons where I can't work out due to other commitments. I drop down as a super featherweight or lightweight for kickboxing competitions. With my BF% the same, I've only gained about four pounds of muscle and I'm faster, more agile, and more powerful than I've ever been (due to Olympic lifts among other exercises like plyometrics). I can easily see the benefits from including strength and speed-strength training into my workout.

Tell me this, why was Bruce Lee training to gain strength? To be the best, to reach the peak of his physical conditioning. Again, you have no basis with your statements.

From my experience, strength does matter. Like I've said, there are more important aspects but strength definately shouldn't be neglected as was the case with your "little strength is good enough." :eyeroll I've taken down 250+ opponents, I've thrown them, I've submitted them, and I feel confident that my striking can make them want to quit. That was because there was such a large difference in speed and skill and because most of my grappling techniques are supposedly what you call "little strength required." I don't care what anyone says, I needed to use a lot of my strength to execute those "little strength required" moves on a 250+ person.

If strength didn't matter, you wouldn't see Olympic wrestlers, boxers, judoka, and even SPORT TKD tag-sparrers use weight training. In fact, I know for a fact that the Korean TKD team hired a strength training coach for the Olympics in Atlanta.

[Cthulhu-versailles]

Mike tyson sucks, he is a nipple biting, ear chopping headbutting eliterate wife beater, bruce lee pwn him.

narutoverse vs humans equal pwnage for natuo verse, bruse lee is raped by gates end fight and discussion

[iaido]

Mike tyson sucks, he is a nipple biting, ear chopping headbutting eliterate wife beater, bruce lee pwn him.

narutoverse vs humans equal pwnage for natuo verse, bruse lee is raped by gates end fight and discussion
Yeah, Mike Tyson does suck. As much of an asshole that he is, you have to admit his boxing prowress when he was in his prime.

And Gunshin, please don't mention Bob Sapp. :notrust If there's any one man I hate in the MMA/K-1 world, it's Bob Sapp. Fucking no talent sideshow clown who takes on no-name and/or out of shape/prime fighters. I'm glad Noguiera and a few others have put him back into his place. :mad

[Gunshin]

Yeah, Mike Tyson does suck. As much of an asshole that he is, you have to admit his boxing prowress when he was in his prime.

And Gunshin, please don't mention Bob Sapp. :notrust If there's any one man I hate in the MMA/K-1 world, it's Bob Sapp. Fucking no talent sideshow clown who takes on no-name and/or out of shape/prime fighters. I'm glad Noguiera and a few others have put him back into his place. :mad
I hate him too, but he is a good example of how strength can be a factor in a fight which Zeroblade was trying to undermind. Maybe I should have used Ray Sefo vs Olympic Gold Medalist Judoka Min Soo Kim as an example. :P

Or maybe somthing like...

Of course it's fair. There is balance, dynamic equilibrium. If it was the other way around it would be the same situation but polar opposite.

lol

Mike tyson sucks, he is a nipple biting, ear chopping headbutting eliterate wife beater, bruce lee pwn him.Not sure what the dirtyfighting during the end of his career has to with much. And Tyson only bit Holyfield because he was getting headbutt'ed by him, a common antic Holyfield does.

Furthermore, if you're going to bash on Tyson for "Dirty Fighting" I suggest you read more about Bruce Lee vs Wong Jack Man.

[iaido]

There is no such thing as a dirty fight.

Contrary to what people believe, most MMA fighters won't fight on the street as they would in the ring. Similiar, yes, of course. But I wouldn't be too keen on going into my guard in a streetfight... There are just too many variables such as weapons, friends, etc. There's a Royce Gracie instructional self-defense book which is very similiar to Bruce Lee's books which in turn is similiar to WWII combatives, krav maga, hapkido, and almost any other martial art. Royce goes over groin kicks, kicks, chops, and elbows.

I don't know about the rest of the MMA guys here but I also fight differently in a street fight than in a ring. I like to use a karate chop to the neck after a combo. In MMA, I usually just throw combos after another and sometimes ending it with a takedown, clinch, or leg/head kick but I found the chop to be very devastating when hit near the C1 and C2 vertebrae. Of course, it's thrown after a simple combo such as jab, cross, hook then knife. There's good enough hip rotation to get a lot of power but even without that, a well-placed but somewhat weak strike near C1/C2 would cause a concussion. It's a good sucker-punch type move. Call me Sakuraba, I might test to see how a Mongolian chop works out for me. Sorry about getting off a tangent, but I personally like the chop better than some signature striking moves such as the backfist.

LOL, yeah, I was also laughing at his equilibrium explanation. Who knew that strength was in direct correlation with skill? :laugh If you workout, you don't have enough time to learn enough. If you're skilled, you must be weak. The stronger you are, the less skill you have. :laugh

[Gunshin]

There is no such thing as a dirty fight.
I agree, which is why I put that term in quotes.

Contrary to what people believe, most MMA fighters won't fight on the street as they would in the ring. Similiar, yes, of course. But I wouldn't be too keen on going into my guard in a streetfight... There are just too many variables such as weapons, friends, etc. There's a Royce Gracie instructional self-defense book which is very similiar to Bruce Lee's books which in turn is similiar to WWII combatives, krav maga, hapkido, and almost any other martial art. Royce goes over groin kicks, kicks, chops, and elbows.
I have that book. :smile-big

I don't know about the rest of the MMA guys here but I also fight differently in a street fight than in a ring. I like to use a karate chop to the neck after a combo. In MMA, I usually just throw combos after another and sometimes ending it with a takedown, clinch, or leg/head kick but I found the chop to be very devastating when hit near the C1 and C2 vertebrae. Of course, it's thrown after a simple combo such as jab, cross, hook then knife. There's good enough hip rotation to get a lot of power but even without that, a well-placed but somewhat weak strike near C1/C2 would cause a concussion. It's a good sucker-punch type move. Call me Sakuraba, I might test to see how a Mongolian chop works out for me. Sorry about getting off a tangent, but I personally like the chop better than some signature striking moves such as the backfist.
I love the spinning backfist! My personal settup is a jab or elbow block into the sb. I seldom use it though, because the risk are higher than the rewards (ie. giving up your back, getting hit in the head, balance... etc.). The chop... I don't use much. I love the mangolian one Sakuraba uses. I think my most "unorthodox" (as they call it) move is the spinning backick which I picked up from my days in Shotokan.

As for streetfighting, I have a bunch of tricks I picked up off the streets of Oakland CA. :smile-big

LOL, yeah, I was also laughing at his equilibrium explanation. Who knew that strength was in direct correlation with skill? :laugh If you workout, you don't have enough time to learn enough. If you're skilled, you must be weak. The stronger you are, the less skill you have. :laugh

lol. I think i'll put that in my sig.

[jkingler]

@Gunshin and iaido: thank you for actually putting some thought and reasoning into your posts. That is why I have always respected your posts, Gunshin, and why I am beginning to respect yours a lot more, iaido :thumbs

As for my opinion of the fight: if this fight gets beyond opening blows, as it probably would, then Tyson would take it. (Even though I voted for Bruce, I voted before reading the other posts and actually thinking through the fight XD. Gomen :sweatdrop)

However, as iaido admits, there is luck to take into account, so in the off chance that Bruce could kick out Mike's knee from the side (which is possible, considering his speed and his style), then Bruce would have a crippled opponent and have a good chance of winning. Unfortunately for the little man, Bruce's size and the fact that Mike is no slouch (also very fast, and trained to defend headlong attacks) make me doubt that Mr. Gongfu could get a groin kick or an eye gouge or any other vital shot.

The knee is Bruce's best bet, and it is a longshot. So, the odds are HEAVILY against Bruce, according to my guesstimation, but he MIGHT be able to win by a fluke.

EDIT: @iaido's mention of Sakuraba, "The Gracie Killer": IMO, that guy is a bit overrated because of his defeat of the Gracie's, but he is still incredible. He is easily among the best Pride fighters I am cognizant of. What I really love about him, though, is that the guy is as entertaining as he is skilled, which is to say he is VERY entertaining. In fact, I think I am going to make a Sakuraba avatar :D

P.S. If either of you guys have any Sakuraba vids, could you send me links or UL them for me? I'll make it worth your while :wink

[Gunshin]

@Gunshin and iaido: thank you for actually putting some thought and reasoning into your posts. That is why I have always respected your posts, Gunshin, and why I am beginning to respect yours a lot more, iaido :thumbs

As for my opinion of the fight: if this fight gets beyond opening blows, as it probably would, then Tyson would take it. (Even though I voted for Bruce, I voted before reading the other posts and actually thinking through the fight XD. Gomen :sweatdrop)

However, as iaido admits, there is luck to take into account, so in the off chance that Bruce could kick out Mike's knee from the side (which is possible, considering his speed and his style), then Bruce would have a crippled opponent and have a good chance of winning. Unfortunately for the little man, Bruce's size and the fact that Mike is no slouch (also very fast, and trained to defend headlong attacks) make me doubt that Mr. Gongfu could get a groin kick or an eye gouge or any other vital shot.

The knee is Bruce's best bet, and it is a longshot. So, the odds are HEAVILY against Bruce, according to my guesstimation, but he MIGHT be able to win by a fluke.

Just somthing to note... Mike Tyson has been training Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech for awhile now, so i'm pretty sure he at least knows a basic shin block. Furthermore, there is a rumor that he is training for MMA too. Seeing how he's a friend of Tito Ortiz, and a fan of the sport, I think it's possible.

EDIT - Funny pic Fairtex drew of Tyson... as well as some information on Tyson training MT.

http://www.fairtex.com/news/news_view.php?n_id=30
http://www.chokemuay.com/03.17.05.Songchai.htm

*****

Heres a short highlight for those who think Tyson is weak, slow, and/or not athletic.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/816/

And please keep in mind Tyson is wearing 10oz gloves.

*****

[jkingler]

Just somthing to note... Mike Tyson has been training Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech for awhile now, so i'm pretty sure he at least knows a basic shin block. Furthermore, there is a rumor that he is training for MMA too. Seeing how he's a friend of Tito Ortiz, and a fan of the sport, I think it's possible.
I had no idea. I may have to respeculate...

Done respeculating:

Battle 1: Well, if we are assuming that Lee and Tyson are fighting during their respective primes, my earlier post stays the same.

Battle 2: If they are fighting with Lee in his prime and Tyson as he is now, I think Lee has less of a chance. Without the knee to target, Lee is up shit creek without a paddle. I would love to say otherwise, since I love Lee--he's a great idol--but I just don't see any feasible quick victory now, and without a quick KO Lee is in a bad situation.

Battle 3: If they both fought as they are now, Tyson would win, no questions asked. I am sure Tyson would have no qualms desecrating a grave, and there is little Lee could do in his current state :sad

[iaido]

I love the spinning backfist! My personal settup is a jab or elbow block into the sb. I seldom use it though, because the risk are higher than the rewards (ie. giving up your back, getting hit in the head, balance... etc.). The chop... I don't use much. I love the mangolian one Sakuraba uses. I think my most "unorthodox" (as they call it) move is the spinning backick which I picked up from my days in Shotokan.

A lot of the guys I worked with used spinning backfists. Like I said, I prefer chops.

I also use back kicks more extensively than most other MMA fighters. I also use a lot more head kicks. For me at least, the rewards are greater than the risk for head kicks as I seem to be able to pull them off most of the time without any repercussions and it has been my favorite KO technique. Then again, I'm primarily a striker and takedown/ground-and-pound fighter than a skilled submission expert. But head kicks, back fists, and chops seem to get a good response from the crowd. I've even seen one guy break dance and use capoeira to taunt the guy.

The greatest KO I've ever seen would definately have to come from a kyokushin karate match.

http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/3951/highkickko3ek.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[iaido]

Just somthing to note... Mike Tyson has been training Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech for awhile now, so i'm pretty sure he at least knows a basic shin block. Furthermore, there is a rumor that he is training for MMA too. Seeing how he's a friend of Tito Ortiz, and a fan of the sport, I think it's possible.

EDIT - Funny pic Fairtex drew of Tyson... as well as some information on Tyson training MT.

http://www.fairtex.com/news/news_view.php?n_id=30
http://www.chokemuay.com/03.17.05.Songchai.htm

*****

Heres a short highlight for those who think Tyson is weak, slow, and not athletic.

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/816/

And please keep in mind Tyson is wearing 10oz gloves.

*****
Can Tyson afford the muay thai training? :P

[Miss CCV]

Bruce Lee would kick Mike Tyson's ass so badly!!!

[iaido]

Bruce Lee would kick Mike Tyson's ass so badly!!!

^
|
|
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I love these types of people.

[Gunshin]

Bruce Lee would kick Mike Tyson's ass so badly!!!
Sure he can, but he'll have to pay Tyson at least 15mil to star in that movie. :laugh

Can Tyson afford the muay thai training? :PYes, he can. Didn't you hear? He's starring in Jason Black Lee's new movie, "Bruce Lee vs Mike Tyson".

[tajoh111]

In no way shape or form is bruce Lee going to win a wrestling match with Mike Tyson. Bruce Lee was not really train in such arts. Considering the weight differences and strength differences, Tyson could get out of any move Bruce lee done to him, especially since Bruce Lee is not that great of a wrestler to begin with. Plus if somehow Lee got a decent hold on Tyson, and Tyson couldn't over power his way out, Tyson would bite Lee and cause some major blood lose on Bruce. Bruce would let go.

Tyson is not slow Zeoblade, his smaller stature compared to other heavy weights has allowed him to have quick speed and explosive power(he needs very little room, to have a powerful punch).

I don't believe either fighter would go for a wrestling match either. I think the fight would turn into a ground and pound situation.

Mike tyson has had far more practise training to avoid hits(besides kicks) than Bruce lee has. Martial arts training compared to boxing training ensures this. Honestly you guys, just give up on arguing with zeoblade, he has been far to influenced by anime and movies to know better. (size does matter as that is why most fighting events are organized into weight classes).

[Gunshin]

Mike tyson has had far more practise training to avoid hits(besides kicks)

Actually....

Mike Tyson has been training Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech for awhile now...

http://www.chokemuay.com/03.17.05.Songchai.htm

[ValentineTheory]

!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe crap like this exists.....Of course Tyson would win!! And I hate Tyson!!!! I like Bruce ALOT, but c'mon, Bruce never weighed a pound over 143 his whole life, and his height was 5"4'. Physically inferior. Have you seen tyson fight? He's FAST! just cuz he's a heavy weight don't mean he's slow. This is ridiculous. Tyson has the power to punch through a guard or block, trained his body for proper endurance, taking hits, and delivering. He wasn't the champ for nothing. Bruce lee is more or less a Movie Actor. Especially if the fight took place in a ring, tyson would win becuase martial arts needs lots of room to perform. Not to mention Bruce's kicks aren't "Almighty", in fact they are average for a martial artist, Bruce's strong points were in his arms, quick and plyometric, but guess what, so are Mike's!! Bruce vs Mike is like Me trying to kick a bull. I might land it, but im still gonna die.



Edit<<<<<<<<<<<
Geez, would you people just listen to Iaido!!, God!!:mad

[zeoblade]

One who talks too much is usually full of too much air. I noticed some people talk too much about themselves than the topic. Anyway I won't stop you if you feel like gas bagging from your own experience, remember it is exactly that and there’s nothing more boring than someone bragging about themselves. The art of fighting is not limited to it and there is a world outside of what you only know.

Some people think street fighting is 1 on 1, how naive.

I'd follow your own advice about straw man logic but you can choose to take the advice or not. Li Xiao Long is great, not a god but some people degrade him unnecessarily without knowing the bigger picture or to prove their point. We say, "Cutting down someone's Christmas tree won't make your Christmas tree look better."

If you don't agree he hasn't got skills in combinations it's your opinion and just that. I have my opinion, if this gets to you so much then tough. If you don't understand concepts about fighting that's your problem, sure as 1+1 is 2, you need to learn it. Hypothesize all you like; it's all you and anyone can do about this topic. Deal with it.

If you think your posts have substance then maybe you've torn yourself a new asshole by mistake. Think carefully before you use something because it may end up being used on you.

Of course strength is important; you need some but depending on strength alone or too much is foolish. Take or leave the advice, it's your choice. You want to quantify how much strength you’d need? The bare minimum is body weight in my experience. Fighting is a way to think, not the way of movement. When you practice enough you’ll begin to realize this. And you’ll also understand the negative effects of relying too much on strength, size and weight. Listening to me talking about it won’t make you learn, get out there and practice.

You want to know why Li Xiao Long was doing strength training. Ask him yourself. We can hypothesize all we like, he needs some strength but he won’t over do it like some people in this thread. He’s not foolish and that’s my guess. However, you seem to agree with me but also trying to go against me. Strength is necessary, but don’t rely on it too much, fighting is not weight lifting. I question your motives.

Honestly, those of you that want to defend your opinion, go knock yourself out. We have a saying where I’m from, maybe you’ve heard it in your country, “Let the baby have its bottle.” So please, go for it, I won’t lower myself to petty disputes.

[iaido]

One who talks too much is usually full of too much air. I noticed some people talk too much about themselves than the topic. Anyway I won't stop you if you feel like gas bagging from your own experience, remember it is exactly that and there’s nothing more boring than someone bragging about themselves. The art of fighting is not limited to it and there is a world outside of what you only know.

Some people think street fighting is 1 on 1, how naive.

I'd follow your own advice about straw man logic but you can choose to take the advice or not. Li Xiao Long is great, not a god but some people degrade him unnecessarily without knowing the bigger picture or to prove their point. We say, "Cutting down someone's Christmas tree won't make your Christmas tree look better."

If you don't agree he hasn't got skills in combinations it's your opinion and just that. I have my opinion, if this gets to you so much then tough. If you don't understand concepts about fighting that's your problem, sure as 1+1 is 2, you need to learn it. Hypothesize all you like; it's all you and anyone can do about this topic. Deal with it.

If you think your posts have substance then maybe you've torn yourself a new asshole by mistake. Think carefully before you use something because it may end up being used on you.

Of course strength is important; you need some but depending on strength alone or too much is foolish. Take or leave the advice, it's your choice. You want to quantify how much strength you’d need? The bare minimum is body weight in my experience. Fighting is a way to think, not the way of movement. When you practice enough you’ll begin to realize this. And you’ll also understand the negative effects of relying too much on strength, size and weight. Listening to me talking about it won’t make you learn, get out there and practice.

You want to know why Li Xiao Long was doing strength training. Ask him yourself. We can hypothesize all we like, he needs some strength but he won’t over do it like some people in this thread. He’s not foolish and that’s my guess. However, you seem to agree with me but also trying to go against me. Strength is necessary, but don’t rely on it too much, fighting is not weight lifting. I question your motives.

Honestly, those of you that want to defend your opinion, go knock yourself out. We have a saying where I’m from, maybe you’ve heard it in your country, “Let the baby have its bottle.” So please, go for it, I won’t lower myself to petty disputes.
Again, you're not addressing the issue at hand and using the Straw Man technique in logic and trying to use the Straw Man technique against me. :eyeroll Not only does it fail miserably but I suggest you reread what the Straw Man tactic is. Here are a few things where I have BLATANTLY pointed out yet you attempt to use the Straw Man technique on.

I am challenging you to post where exactly in any of my posts I said what you think I'm saying.

1. I never said Bruce Lee wasn't good at combinations. I said that he can't defend against Tyson's barrage of combinations. In his prime, his combinations were the best in the business which was why he was the heavyweight champ. Bruce Lee can't possibly defend against all of them even if he clinches - nobody can. And as far as combinations go, Tyson > Lee.

2. You try to maintain a moderate approach by using ambiguous statements such as "Bruce Lee isn't a god but he's good." Yeah, okay, I've been saying that the entire time along with many other people. If you're going to say something, just go out and say it instead of saying some crap like that.

3. If you bothered to read my posts, I never said streetfights were 1 vs 1. Actually, that's one of the reasons why I said that you shouldn't go to the ground if you can help it because of so many variables. I even wrote it IN PLAIN ENGLISH where I addressed friends and weapons.
Contrary to what people believe, most MMA fighters won't fight on the street as they would in the ring. Similiar, yes, of course. But I wouldn't be too keen on going into my guard in a streetfight... There are just too many variables such as weapons, friends, etc. There's a Royce Gracie instructional self-defense book which is very similiar to Bruce Lee's books which in turn is similiar to WWII combatives, krav maga, hapkido, and almost any other martial art. Royce goes over groin kicks, kicks, chops, and elbows.

Taken from Page 6, Post #107

4. The issue on strength, I want you to point out where either Gunshin and I have said that strength was the only factor in a fight. Get off your soapbox, you're using the Strawman technique for the fourth time now. I said that strength is important, more important than how important you think it is, but I also said that there are more important attributes such as skill.

That's it for the Strawman techniques, now I'll discuss the glaring mistakes in your post.

Bruce Lee trained for maximum strength possible. He said it himself. You're basically saying you know more about Bruce Lee than Bruce. He won't overdo strength training? That's stupid, Bruce understood the importance of strength training. I'm going to ask you two questions before I totally prove you wrong.

1. How would Bruce determine when the strength he acquired was good enough?

2. What are the negative side effects of strength training? How does strength hurt a martial artist? Don't say something about it makes you bulky, unflexible, slow, etc., I already proved those claims wrong.

Now, here comes the good part.

Ladies and gentlement, now comes the moment in which I completely ruin zeoblade's argument on strength and ultimately, his credibility once and for all!

How do you think Bruce Lee had his severe back injury (he wrote most of the Tao of JKD while bedridden from the injury)?


Lee incurred this back problem when he was younger, after pinching a nerve in his lower back while doing good morning exercises using heavy weights without properly warming up -- a condition that left him temporarily in a wheelchair.



Oh wait, does that mean he pushed his body too hard and beyond its capabilities at the time in an attempt to gain strength?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Biography


Can you say owned?

[iaido]

Realize that when initially confronted with bullshit, I'm a bit more tolerant than other "MMA" people who think that muay thai/boxing, wrestling, and BJJ/judo are be-all-end-all martial arts. I certainly don't follow that line of thinking. But when someone confronts me with bullshit, I'll pounce over it faster than Michael Jackson on a child.

[Gunshin]

Realize that when initially confronted with bullshit, I'm a bit more tolerant than other "MMA" people who think that muay thai/boxing, wrestling, and BJJ/judo are be-all-end-all martial arts. I certainly don't follow that line of thinking. But when someone confronts me with bullshit, I'll pounce over it faster than Michael Jackson on a child.
Yeah, that was straight 1990's Mortal Kombat **FATALITY** style. :laugh

My favorite part of his post is how he said:

One who talks too much is usually full of too much air. I noticed some people talk too much about themselves than the topic.

And then goes on to say:

The bare minimum is body weight in my experience.
When you practice enough you’ll begin to realize this.
Listening to me talking about it won’t make you learn, get out there and practice.

The funniest part is that neither you or I have used our own experiences to support our opinion about Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee. We've mentioned facts, and gave logical reasoning.

[MartialHorror]

Watching them both at work. Bruce Lee seems to be faster and just as strong. In his prime though, Tyson had ALOT of power. But Bruce Lee adapts to his opponent. I'd say Bruce Lee in the end, but Tyson would be no pushover.

[Gunshin]

Watching them both at work. Bruce Lee seems to be faster and just as strong. In his prime though, Tyson had ALOT of power. But Bruce Lee adapts to his opponent. I'd say Bruce Lee in the end, but Tyson would be no pushover.
I'm a bit curious about the "watching them both at work" part. Which fights of Bruce Lee have you seen, and who was his opponent? Furthermore, what gives you the idea that Bruce Lee is just as strong as Mike Tyson?

[Delta Shell]

Well watching Bruce at work would be in a movie, no? Not an accurate depiction, i've seen some grainy footage ofa rooftop battle in HK somewhere..wasn't too impressive and I couldn't really tell if it was him..

Edit: Beaten to it yet again...

[iaido]

Watching them both at work. Bruce Lee seems to be faster and just as strong. In his prime though, Tyson had ALOT of power. But Bruce Lee adapts to his opponent. I'd say Bruce Lee in the end, but Tyson would be no pushover.
I've never seen Bruce Lee in action. You're not old enough either.

I've seen various clips of Lee in action, none of them fighting. There are various pictures of him fighting Kareem Abdul Jabbar and some Hollywood extras who challenged him offset, but that's it.

The people who personally trained Bruce Lee:

Yip Man & William Cheung - Wing Chun
Han Ji Jae (Informal) - Hapkido
Gene Lebell (Informal) - Judo


Bruce's Training Partners

Dan Inosanto - I think it was shotokan karate but it might be Goju ryu. Cross-trained in Jun Fan, boxing, muay thai, BJJ, judo, wrestling, arnis, krav maga, and hapkido among many others.

Ted Wong: Jun Fan, taijiquan (that's all I remember on the top of my head)

There are photos of all of the above people training together. But no fight record.

Adapting is all good and dandy, but it won't help if you're knocked out in the first round. Most of the "adaptation" you see comes before the match, studying tapes and adjusting your game accordingly.

Bruce Lee's Bench: ~155-185
Mike Tyson (when 14 years old): ~250+
Mike Tyson (20 years old): ~315+

[iaido]

Yeah, that was straight 1990's Mortal Kombat **FATALITY** style. :laugh

My favorite part of his post is how he said:



And then goes on to say:





The funniest part is that neither you or I have used our own experiences to support our opinion about Mike Tyson vs Bruce Lee. We've mentioned facts, and gave logical reasoning.
I guess he's trying to be a martial philosopher himself along the ranks of Sun Tzu or Miyamoto Musashi... Except his anecdotes are crap and they don't make sense.

You realize he has never really addressed a single issue at hand? He's like Hillary Clinton during a press conference.

How are you going to reform education in New York?
I will reform education through my new bill which will limit corporations from exploiting thirdworld countries as I believe cultural awareness should be a goal for our children.
^
|
|
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Or some gayass crap like that.

He's purposely being ambiguous because there are no facts to back him up. Therefore, he uses anecdotes to make him seem more knowledgeable than he really is. The results are similiar to a 5th grader trying to give a report on quantum physics only to use the thesaurus one too many times to make it seem like he knows what he's talking about.

To mask his apparent weakness, he attempts to copy the language of Aristotle or Confucius.

What makes me laugh is that he's trying to be open being ambiguous, never really taking a stand. He also suggestively hints that he's better trained and has more experience but then tries to mask it with his anecdotes such as "When you practice enough you’ll begin to realize this." Learn what, that my training makes me even more badass than I already am? I already knew that. :laugh

If he is unconsciously being ambiguous, he is an idiot.

Zeo =

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_15.php
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_59.php

[Gunshin]

I noticed he didn't address one issue. Im not sure if it's a reading comprehension issue or what, but he seems to enjoy adding things to my/your post, and then attack it. Thats why when I read his post, sometimes I questioned if he was reffering to me, you, or some imaginary person.

[i]How are you going to reform education in New York?[i]
I will reform education through my new bill which will limit corporations from exploiting thirdworld countries as I believe cultural awareness should be a goal for our children.
^
|
|
|
Or some gayass crap like that.
Off topic, Hillary is an idiot. It scares me that she could be the next president.


http://www.politicsforum.org/images/...s/flame_15.php
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/...s/flame_59.php
That was funny stuff!!! lol

[MartialHorror]

I've watched Lee training. I've been in Karate for 7 years. Unless the person chickens out during combat. You can tell their speed, agility, power,ect,ect by just watching them do a few things.

I've watched his punches, kicks, and other various excersizes.

I've seen Tyson as well, who is nothing but a powerhouse. It seems like every time I've watched him lose is because he is tricked or gets careless.

[minnatrix]

Depends, would Mike Tyson beat Ali? If he could at least draw, he takes this. Lee knows he doesn't have the raw power because of his size, plus he respected Ali a ton, I mean he thought Ali had the perfect physics behind his punches.

He might beat Mike if Ali would cream him but its kinda hard due to his lack of power but he has overall fighting as opposed to a punching specialists, especially one with an anger problem could be taken advantage of.

Lack of power? You're kidding right? Bruce Lee was able to kick cement bags up towards ceilings and he's lacking power?

BRUCE LEE ALL THE WAY!

[Gunshin]

I've watched Lee training.
Training is not really an indicator of their level as a fighter.

Unless the person chickens out during combat. You can tell their speed, agility, power,ect,ect by just watching them do a few things.

I've watched his punches, kicks, and other various excersizes.
I disagree here. In those videos you have seen, what gives you the impression that Bruce is physicaly stronger than a person who outweighs him by almost 100lbs? Furthermore, Tyson could bench press more than Bruce when he was in his teens. We have also seen Tyson KO people with bigger bodies, bigger necks, and bigger chins. All this with 10oz gloves. What did you see that makes you think that Bruce Lee is strong as Tyson? Furthermore, if Bruce was as strong as you say, why couldn't be defeat Gene Lebell? Afterall, Gene Lebell fought a weaker (all around weaker) boxer than Tyson in Milo Savage, yet Milo Savage was able to hurt Gene. Why couldn't Bruce?

[MartialHorror]

Training is not really an indicator of their level as a fighter.

-You can tell how fast and how hard a person can hit.

I disagree here. In those videos you have seen, what gives you the impression that Bruce is physicaly stronger than a person who outweighs him by almost 100lbs? Furthermore, Tyson could bench press more than Bruce when he was in his teens. We have also seen Tyson KO people with bigger bodies, bigger necks, and bigger chins. All this with 10oz gloves. What did you see that makes you think that Bruce Lee is strong as Tyson? Furthermore, if Bruce was as strong as you say, why couldn't be defeat Gene Lebell? Afterall, Gene Lebell fought a weaker (all around weaker) boxer than Tyson in Milo Savage, yet Milo Savage was able to hurt Gene. Why couldn't Bruce?

-You're right about Tyson being physically stronger than Lee. I worded that badly. But there is a huge difference between how hard a person can punch and how strong. I'd say Lee's punches> Tysons punches.

and I explained this in another thread. Im sure you are a huge boxing person. Havent you ever seen A fight B, win, B fight C, win, and A lose to C? It's common in martial arts(I consider boxing part of it)

[Gunshin]

-You're right about Tyson being physically stronger than Lee. I worded that badly. But there is a huge difference between how hard a person can punch and how strong. I'd say Lee's punches> Tysons punches.
You still haven't produced even a hint of evidence as to why Lee punches harder than Tyson. Furthermore, you look down on Tyson and Boxing to even suggest that Bruce Lee punches harder than a man who outweighs him by over 90lbs, trained boxing over half his life, and has proven his punching power.

and I explained this in another thread. Im sure you are a huge boxing person. Havent you ever seen A fight B, win, B fight C, win, and A lose to C? It's common in martial arts(I consider boxing part of it)
Thats irrelevant to my point. My point is that Bruce cannot hit harder than Tyson, and you have no proof that he does. I mentioned Bruce's fights with Gene Lebell because Bruce could not KO him with the power he has, yet Milo Savage, a much weaker boxer than Tyson, could. It doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of a > b > c. A better analogy is if a hammer can't break glass, it won't break steel.

[MartialHorror]

You still haven't produced even a hint of evidence as to why Lee punches harder than Tyson. Furthermore, you look down on Tyson and Boxing to even suggest that Bruce Lee punches harder than a man who outweighs him by over 90lbs, trained boxing over half his life, and has proven his punching power. .

-And you cant produce otherwise. Hasnt Bruce Lee trained in Kung Fu(I dont remember the exact style) his entire life? I know Jet Li has. So by that same logic, Jet Li>=<Tyson. Shit, do you honestly think the stronger person is the harder puncher? Now I know you arent a martial artist.


Thats irrelevant to my point. My point is that Bruce cannot hit harder than Tyson, and you have no proof that he does. I mentioned Bruce's fights with Gene Lebell because Bruce could not KO him with the power he has, yet Milo Savage, a much weaker boxer than Tyson, could. It doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of a > b > c. A better analogy is if a hammer can't break glass, it won't break steel.

It's all a matter of styles. If you have trained under martial arts, you've probably havent fought much outside of your style.

Quit pretending your speculations are facts. I admit I cant prove Lee>Tyson or likewise. I am speculating. Hell, you can't say shit because wasn't Tysons first big loss agaisnt someone who was supposed to be much weaker?

[Gunshin]

-And you cant produce otherwise. Hasnt Bruce Lee trained in Kung Fu(I dont remember the exact style) his entire life? I know Jet Li has. So by that same logic, Jet Li>=<Tyson. Shit, do you honestly think the stronger person is the harder puncher?
LOL. You don't even know Bruce's style and talk so much shit. He does Wing Tsung, and he's not even accomplished in Wing Tsung. You further show your "vast knowledge" of martial arts by using Jet Li as an example. What is Jet Li's martial art "Mr. Martial Art Nazi"? It's called "Wushu" and there is two versions. The version Jet Li trained in is the Chinese national sport known for it's performance style, rather than a mode of fighting.

Shit, do you honestly think the stronger person is the harder puncher?
No, but the bigger person can put more weight into their punches. That is where the power of a punch comes from. Furthermore, Tyson knows how to put his body weight into each punch. "Now I know you arent a martial artist."

It's all a matter of styles. If you have trained under martial arts, you've probably havent fought much outside of your style.
LOL. You have no argument. I'm going to refer to you as Captain Fallacy from now on.

Quit pretending your speculations are facts. I admit I cant prove Lee>Tyson or likewise. I am speculating. Hell, you can't say shit because wasn't Tysons first big loss agaisnt someone who was supposed to be much weaker?
Will do Captain Fallacy.

[iaido]

I've watched Lee training. I've been in Karate for 7 years. Unless the person chickens out during combat. You can tell their speed, agility, power,ect,ect by just watching them do a few things.

I've watched his punches, kicks, and other various excersizes.

I've seen Tyson as well, who is nothing but a powerhouse. It seems like every time I've watched him lose is because he is tricked or gets careless.
:eyeroll

Movie abilities and reality abilities are different. If you've ever been in a fight, you'd know thatreal fights aren't as pretty. It's dirty, cheap, and unentertaining.

How can you tell how powerful Bruce Lee is? Most of the punches and kicks don't land. It's a freaking movie, can you not understand that? People fall down from a few punches in movies and never get back up. Reality fighting doesn't look nearly as cool.

Tyson gets tricked or gets careless? What bouts? Disregard Tyson after Holyfield. During the Holyfield bouts and everything before that, what makes you seem he's so slow? It's a real bout, not choreographed and edited. There's some footage of Bruce Lee trying to get another guy flinch by showing how fast his punch is. Bruce Lee doesn't hit the guy but he punches in the air as fast as he can. He looks like any normal fast featherweight to me. Just because Bruce Lee is poetry in motion in his movies doesn't mean he can pull the same stunt in a real fight. Sure he can use the fancy footwork, rub his nose with his thumb, and pull up his pants, but Bruce Lee understands that it's for his movies.

He said that people would never go for it in movies or TV because the fights are over too fast and most of the good stuff was hidden from view. He said they wanted to see fancy kicking, acrobatics, and weapons -- he was a savvy showman who knew how to give 'em exactly what they wanted.

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp

Bruce Lee says it himself, he fights differently in the movies than in real life. You know why he said that? Reality fighting doesn't sell.

Don't go crying now just because daddy posted some facts.

I'm not going to be critical of your seven years of karate training. I'm not above myself to criticize other martial arts or how long or short they've been training unless they're asking for it. As far as I'm concerned, any martial artist shouldn't have his experience in MA tormented. What style of karate do you study?

[iaido]

-And you cant produce otherwise. Hasnt Bruce Lee trained in Kung Fu(I dont remember the exact style) his entire life? I know Jet Li has. So by that same logic, Jet Li>=<Tyson. Shit, do you honestly think the stronger person is the harder puncher? Now I know you arent a martial artist.




It's all a matter of styles. If you have trained under martial arts, you've probably havent fought much outside of your style.

Quit pretending your speculations are facts. I admit I cant prove Lee>Tyson or likewise. I am speculating. Hell, you can't say shit because wasn't Tysons first big loss agaisnt someone who was supposed to be much weaker?
Okay, you don't even know Bruce Lee's kung fu style and you say you know more about Bruce Lee than Gunshin and me?

Bruce Lee started training in wing chun from the age of 13 to 18/19 when he moved to the United States. That's all.

Jet Li studied demonstration wushu all his life and was a champion who performed for President Nixon.

Gunshin can't provide otherwise about Tyson's punching power? Ask James "Bonecrusher" Smith. Ask Holyfield. Ask Pinklon Thomas.

You know, it would be an entirely different fight had it been a champion speedster like Roy Jones Jr. vs. Tyson.

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html

Oh yeah, most heavyweights punch with a force almost equal to that of someone bashing your head with a small, aluminum bat. Power hitters such as Tyson and Foreman hit much harder than that.

[Sever]

I'd say Bruce Lee man, he freaking Jet Kun Doo would own Mike Tyson

[MartialHorror]

LOL. You don't even know Bruce's style and talk so much shit. He does Wing Tsung, and he's not even accomplished in Wing Tsung. You further show your "vast knowledge" of martial arts by using Jet Li as an example. What is Jet Li's martial art "Mr. Martial Art Nazi"? It's called "Wushu" and there is two versions. The version Jet Li trained in is the Chinese national sport known for it's performance style, rather than a mode of fighting. .

-I actually thought it was Wing Chun. Oh well, I'm terrible with names. And most Kung Fu is like that. It is used more for other things than fighting

No, but the bigger person can put more weight into their punches. That is where the power of a punch comes from. Furthermore, Tyson knows how to put his body weight into each punch. "Now I know you arent a martial artist.".
-I agree. But smaller people have lost to bigger people. Explain.

LOL. You have no argument. I'm going to refer to you as Captain Fallacy from now on.
Will do Captain Fallacy.

-YAY! I like that name!

And Iado, once again most of your post is not even worth replying. Except I study Wado Karate. Tried getting into Taekwondo, but wasn't my thing.

er, might not be able to reply for awhile.

[hjkou]

LOL. You don't even know Bruce's style and talk so much shit. He does Wing Tsung, and he's not even accomplished in Wing Tsung.

isnt it wing chun?

anyway, this is a gay battle, you get all the people making huge statements about mike tyson, then when someone says something about brucelee, they say "you dont even know bruce lee, your too young"
blah blah blah, bruce lee's REAL fight vids are probably extremely rare, so i really doubt the people who say that have seen them either.

unless you have solid evidence on BOTH of the fighters, dont make some superlongassPOINTLESS statement

[iaido]

LOL. You don't even know Bruce's style and talk so much shit. He does Wing Tsung, and he's not even accomplished in Wing Tsung. You further show your "vast knowledge" of martial arts by using Jet Li as an example. What is Jet Li's martial art "Mr. Martial Art Nazi"? It's called "Wushu" and there is two versions. The version Jet Li trained in is the Chinese national sport known for it's performance style, rather than a mode of fighting.


No, but the bigger person can put more weight into their punches. That is where the power of a punch comes from. Furthermore, Tyson knows how to put his body weight into each punch. "Now I know you arent a martial artist."


LOL. You have no argument. I'm going to refer to you as Captain Fallacy from now on.


Will do Captain Fallacy.
LOL, Captain Fallacy.

You beat me to addressing about both Bruce Lee and Jet Li. We even made the same remark ridiculing him.

Jet Li understands that he comes from a demonstration style. Unlike Bruce however, Jet Li was a champion which proves that he was the best in what he did.

Bruce Lee never made the rank as a senior student at Yip Man's wing chun school in Hong Kong. The school had rankings in where if were considered up to that level, you were taught the techniques that came with it. One of the techniques Bruce Lee never formally learned was the one-inch and three-inch punchl it was reserved for senior students. Bruce Lee imitated their movements and never received formal instruction on the technique. Smart, but naturally his technique was lacking in power in comparison to the senior students. His one-inch punch was probably weaker than Yip Man who was over 60 or 70. Then again, you can't discredit experienced old people such as Yip Man, Mas Oyama, or Helio Gracie... They've done their fair share of accomplishments and paid their dues.

Gunshin said it perfectly. The heavier person has the potential to hit harder. This necessarily isn't always the case due to different skill levels and physical abilities. Most untrained people don't rotate their hips for crosses, put more weight on the front leg (you usually want more weight on the same side you're punching with), elbows out, and so on. There's also the issue on the speed of the punch but usually the weight difference more than compensates for the speed of the punch. There's also the strength factor involved where a person of the same skill, speed, and size but where one is stronger than the other, the stronger one usually hits harder.

Seriously now, you're beginning to make me question on whether you've punched and been punched full-contact with gloves on. I suggest you try a few boxing classes to try to understand what I mean. It can only help your karate training. At the very least, it'll improve your cardiovascular conditioning which is one of the many weak points of watered-down, mainstream McDojos.

[Gunshin]

-I actually thought it was Wing Chun. Oh well, I'm terrible with names. And most Kung Fu is like that. It is used more for other things than fighting
Translation: *white flag*


-I agree. But smaller people have lost to bigger people. Explain.
Wow, you rally are Captain Fallacy, or perhaps The Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz. Look at you already trying to divert attention from the fact that I just proved you wrong. And your diversion is irrelevant.

And Iado, once again most of your post is not even worth replying. Except I study Wado Karate. Tried getting into Taekwondo, but wasn't my thing.
Actually his post are very relevant, in fact, i'd say they're more well thought out than mine, especially since i'm cooking and cleaning.

er, might not be able to reply for awhile.
AKA - I need to run to Google real quick, be right back.

[iaido]

And Iado, once again most of your post is not even worth replying.

er, might not be able to reply for awhile.
That is because I included references to my posts and destroyed all your arguments using logic. I even included websites for you to read. One subjective article (Gene Lebell) and one objective (The Sports Article). You can't deny objective measurements such as the ORM, VO2 MAX, etc. or the logical findings: Bruce Lee never competed in the amateur or professional world of sports.

Any sane person can understand that but hey, you're only denying that you lost the argument.

Here is a visual interpretation of how you and your arguments are looking right now:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8893/chinesemilitarytraining1bm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[iaido]

I mentioned Bruce's fights with Gene Lebell because Bruce could not KO him with the power he has, yet Milo Savage, a much weaker boxer than Tyson, could. It doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of a > b > c. A better analogy is if a hammer can't break glass, it won't break steel.
I even posted a Gene Lebell website and story on Hollywood vs. Bruce Lee's actual fighting style but he disregarded it since it came from Iaido. :laugh Actually, he didn't ignore it because it came from me. He refused to acknowledge it and take the easy way out by saying he's going to ignore me because it proved him wrong.

So now, I'm going to post random images.
http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/3670/oswaldgangband9pe.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Never knew Jack Ruby was left-handed.

[Gunshin]

I even posted a Gene Lebell website and story on Hollywood vs. Bruce Lee's actual fighting style but he disregarded it since it came from Iaido. :laugh Actually, he didn't ignore it because it came from me. He refused to acknowledge it and take the easy way out by saying he's going to ignore me because it proved him wrong.

The funniest thing is that he gave me a bad rep saying:

get exp before you speak

Then he goes on *NOT* knowing what martial art Bruce Lee does. *NOT* knowing that Bruce is not accomplished in Wing Tsung. *NOT* knowing that Jet Li's martial art is Modern Wushu. *NOT* knowing the science of a punch. *NOT* knowing anything about boxing. :laugh

Even funnier than that is that he said he has 7 years of karate (um.. what kind?). I have more years in Shotokan, Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, MMA (not a martial art perse, but a fighting class I took under Jake Shields that combined three of the arts), Eskrima, Fuma Ryu Ninjitsu (this was a McDojo when I was younger), and more. I've fought in both smoker and amateur matches as well. Comedy. :laugh

I say he's a mix of artful dodger and impostor.

[iaido]

The funniest thing is that he gave me a bad rep saying:



Then he goes on *NOT* knowing what martial art Bruce Lee does. *NOT* knowing that Bruce is not accomplished in Wing Tsung. *NOT* knowing that Jet Li's martial art is Modern Wushu. *NOT* knowing the science of a punch. *NOT* knowing anything about boxing. :laugh

Even funnier than that is that he said he has 7 years of karate (um.. what kind?). I have more years in Shotokan, Kyokushin, Muay Thai, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, MMA (not a martial art perse, but a fighting class I took under Jake Shields that combined three of the arts), Eskrima, Fuma Ryu Ninjitsu (this was a McDojo when I was younger), and more. I've fought in both smoker and amateur matches as well. Comedy. :laugh
He said he practices Wado karate which is a legitimate art with some history to it. It's relatively new in the MA world being developed between the World Wars but it has its roots from jujutsu and Shotokan. Like I've said, I'm not going to bash what arts people take as different arts suit different people and their goals. As long as they work hard, even if they have no natural talent and they suck, who am I to say what you're working hard for is shit? That is, unless they're studying from an overweight, fat white guy who claims to be the Soke of Bul Shi Do 10th degree who taught "FBI & CIA agents, Army Special Forces, Army Rangers, Navy SEALs", 10th degree in Chang Liang Yamadatekashidou Mizu Fuuzu Ryu Jujutsu, etc. with a PhD in Martial Science from Yale.

For those of you who don't get it, it's an inside joke on martial arts frauds. There are actually people who claim such nonesense.

[Gunshin]

He said he practices Wado karate which is a legitimate art with some history to it.
I must of missed it. Was it a message directed to you? Anyways - - - my point was that he has less experience than me (as in years studying ma), knows less about Bruce Lee, knows less about Jet Li, and hence, cannot make the statement that I have no experience when he doesn't even have his own facts straight.

[ValentineTheory]

oh yea, sorry if i just noticed this but You've read that article on Bruce at Myodynamics too huh, Iaido? It's a good site. I thought I was the only who read that, but i was too lazy to bring up any info from it. Just Read that junk......it makes sense.

Man, someone her just got totally owned. Im glad you two are here, im far too lazy to post that much with that many words...

[iaido]

I must of missed it. Was it a message directed to you? Anyways - - - my point was that he has less experience than me (as in years studying ma), knows less about Bruce Lee, knows less about Jet Li, and hence, cannot make the statement that I have no experience when he doesn't even have his own facts straight.
No, I was just commenting on my opinions on Wado ryu, a style that he studies.

But yeah, he is a product of the Hollywood propaganda machine. It's not my problem all logic is lost on him and he can't think critically or analytically if it saved his life. I'd hate to be the professor that grades his thesis papers.

[Arcanite]

Tyson (Prime) would own Bruce Lee. Bruce might be fast and his one inch punch is impressive against objects that don't move but Tyson in his prime was fast, threw devestating punch combinations, and could take stronger blows than what Bruce could produce.

[JoaoXP]

I think the main debate here is boxe vs martialarts. But the point is that Bruce Lee was NOT the best martial artist in the world, while Tyson was a champion in boxe. Its hard, but some times the raw, less sofisticated style can produce better results.

[Tidus]

I belive that even Tyson in his prime wouldn't stand a chance against Lee in his prime, Lee had unbelivable speed and power, He even made his own form of martial arts. I havent seen Tyson do anything like that, he is crap he had to resort to biteing some ones ear off to beat them. And i picked Lee in under 35 seconds because i reackon Lee would have him beat mentilly even before they get to the ring

[Gunshin]

I belive that even Tyson in his prime wouldn't stand a chance against Lee in his prime, Lee had unbelivable speed and power, He even made his own form of martial arts.
Lee never made his own form of martial arts. Jeet Kun Do is a philosophy. Bruce's primary style was Wing Tsung under Yip Man, and Bruce was not even close to being considered a top student. Tyson is more accomplished in boxing than Lee in Wing Tsung. As a fighter he is more proven because we have seen Tyson rip the heads off of bigger men, with bigger chins, and thicker necks. While wearing 10oz gloves.

I havent seen Tyson do anything like that, he is crap he had to resort to biteing some ones ear off to beat them. And i picked Lee in under 35 seconds because i reackon Lee would have him beat mentilly even before they get to the ring
Of course you haven't, because Bruce Lee never invented a form of martial arts. You have no proof of Lee's "unbelievable power and speed" outside of movies and small clips. Furthermore, Bruce Lee's friend Gene Lebell (who beat Lee multiple times) said that Bruce fights different in real life than on camera because Bruce's real way of fighting "DOESN'T SELL". Sadly, this is the same reason why Gene Lebell was not as marketable as Bruce, despite him being a superior fighter.

The reason Tyson bit Hollyfield was because Hollyfield wouldn't stop blatantly headbutting him, and the referee wasn't doing anything about it. Tyson got frustrated and did somthing stupid. Obviously, you don't know that because you never even watched the fight.

[OniTasku]

Putting aside the fact he's dead, Bruce Lee would beat Mike Tyson to a bloody pulp.

[Gunshin]

you get all the people making huge statements about mike tyson, then when someone says something about brucelee, they say "you dont even know bruce lee, your too young"

I was laughing about this earlier because you have Bruce Lee at like 76 vs Tyson at 23. The few of us that defend Tyson bring facts. "Huge statements"? We bring evidence, facts, and *logical* reasoning. We also bring unbias, and knowledge of both martial artist. Look at the post from people like me and Iaido and compare it ones like:

Putting aside the fact he's dead, Bruce Lee would beat Mike Tyson to a bloody pulp.

bruce lee man.....one-inch-punch the remainder of tysons teeth.

Lee would own Tyson, he was lightning quick and had alot of power.

a boxer would always lose to a martial arts master
so my vote goes to Bruce lee bitches

Wheres the reasoning? Evidence? There is none. Now compare it to post like:

Lee wasn't the greatest fighter of all time because he's never competed or earned a rank. Now I can tell you that rank sometimes isn't a gauge of skill and ability but it does give you a general understanding. I'm confident I have a much quicker, faster, and more penetrating shot than 90% of all BJJ black belts as I come from a state (collegiate) and national (greco) level [doesn't mean I'm a champion or even ranked by any means] but 99.9% of them would choke me out in less than 3 minutes in a submission wrestling match.

Wing chun does have a system of seniority. Bruce Lee never learned wing chun long enough to be a senior student which is why he was never formally taught the one-inch and three-inch punch.

If rank doesn't matter, then it's your competitive background... Muay thai doesn't have belts but they do have rankings... The champion for a particular stadium is #1 and then the list goes on. It's pretty simple to follow. You beat lots of people to move up the ladder, beat the #1 guy, and then you're #1.

Same with boxing although it gets a bit more complicated due to politics, especially with title fights and with the different sanctioning bodies.

Kyokushin karate has ranks as in belts but a nidan can beat a sandan and be #1 in a tournament.

Bruce Lee has beaten up... Movie extras and school challenges.

Again, Bruce Lee was a great philosopher but his ideas weren't even new. WWII combatives expert Fairburn, Applegate, etc. preceeded him. They took their ideas off Miyamoto Musashi, Sun Tzu, and the Greeks who preceeded them by hundreds and thousands of years. The only difference is that the people of old never thought anything much of it, they just did it anyway because they had to.

In case everyone wanted to want my two cents, the greatest martial artist of all time in my opinion would be Miyamoto Musashi. Today's MA and MMA competitors are indeed tough, but nobody has to make decisions that would cost them their life in an instant.

I don't even llike posting here anymore, but this is ridiculous.

Who has Bruce Lee beat? Who has Tyson beat? I bet nobody here has even seen a real Bruce Lee fight thats not in movies. All this theoretical bs people are pulling is stupid. Gene Lebell manhandled Bruce three times. Not once. Not twice. Three times. Gene is not a lighting quick guy. Tyson is faster than Gene Lebell. So why do people think that Bruce is going to pull a fist of the north star on Tyson? All he has to do is clinch Bruce ala Gene Lebell, and finish him.

And Bruce cannot KO Tyson. Tyson has fought 100's of guys who hit harder than Bruce. And please don't mention the 1-Inch punch which even Bruce's closest friends Gene Lebell and Danny Inosanto know is a parlor trick which involves punching the solar plexus from an inch. I've seen the video of the 1-inch and it does not live up to the hype. And as for kicking, in order for Bruce to kick Tyson he has to give up balance. All Tyson has to do is rush Bruce when Bruce is prepared to kick, from there he can:

a. clinch followed by knee/uppercut/hook/bite <-- lol
b. take him down ala Gene Lebell and pound the shit out of him
c. Give him a mean straight in the middle of his kick

If people are going to say Bruce wins than back it up with proof instead of the Hollywood Propoganda used to help sell Bruce Lee movies. For christ sakes, Bruce Lee said that William Cheung is the greatest strongest martialartist on the planet, and he got an ass kicking from the scrub Emin Bozetepe.

Bruce's style is primarily WT, and have any of you guys seem WT? Now, to those of you who have, have you watched boxing? Better yet, have any of you guys watched Tyson?

PS. To you guys make it sound like Bruce will move like Spider Man for 30 minutes. You do realize that if you move at a fast pace for awhile, your cardiovascular will shit and you'll be like a fish out of water. Furthermore, have any of you guys fought a boxer? Boxing is the most underrated MA. Those guys have the best upperbody striking defense period, and seeing how Tyson studied MT, he undoubtbly has a shin block, and thats all he needs to deal with kicks (actualy he doesn't even need that).

Iaido, good post, the only one backed with reasoning and experience.

So who's making the big statements without backing them up?

[iaido]

Wheres the reasoning? Evidence? There is none. Now compare it to post like:





So who's making the big statements without backing them up?
Bruce Lee would kill Mike Tyson any day of the week because he's wicked fast and he's poetry in motion on screen. I've never been in a real fight or studied martial arts extensively nor have I seen Tyson fight for more than a few seconds but Bruce Lee just looks better and dominated his opponents more in his movies.

^
|
|
|

If that didn't sound retarded to you, I feel sorry for you and your critical thinking abilities.

[ValentineTheory]

Too be honest.....Bruce didn't even really look that good on screen either.....:oh

I only like him because he's an icon.....and makes for good t-shirt material....
Even if you did base him on his movies....in all his movies he was fighting retards.

[IronFist Alchemist]

Gunshin...Iaido...you guys are my frickin ideals! :D

This thread is pretty much done! :amuse Anyone wanna discuss Bushido 8 or the MW Grand Prix or who should be in the Bushido GP?? :sweat

[Ephemeral]

Gunshin...Iaido...you guys are my frickin ideals! :D

This thread is pretty much done! :amuse Anyone wanna discuss Bushido 8 or the MW Grand Prix or who should be in the Bushido GP?? :sweat

Just made a thread about it in the movies/tv sect. GOMI! GOMI! GOMI! 7-0!

[lekki]

Um... what everyone in this thread fails to realize is that a 135-lb guy can't do anything to a 280-lb pile of muscle, no matter who he is. Human is human.
Man, I just saw this post.
Did you watch the Bruce Lee documentary where he was schooling Kareem Abdul Jabar, a 7ft something basketball player? Bruce Lee is the man.
There's no such thing as weight class in true martial arts, you learn your art to beat the hell out of anybody if you need to fight although few martial arts actually preach fighting.

[¤Naruto-Kun¤]

BRUCE LEE OWNS THIS MATCH!
NO Doubt!, Tyson (no offense) is really stupid.... the main reason he'd lose is that Bruce is alot smarter then him, he would definitly find his weakness!

[iaido]

Man, I just saw this post.
Did you watch the Bruce Lee documentary where he was schooling Kareem Abdul Jabar, a 7ft something basketball player? Bruce Lee is the man.
There's no such thing as weight class in true martial arts, you learn your art to beat the hell out of anybody if you need to fight although few martial arts actually preach fighting.
There are no such thing as weightclasses in a streetfight. If you've ever wrestled, boxer, or wrestled MMA, you would realize that it's an entire different story.

I saw the documentary. It was a just a few photos, very little video evidence. Kareem gave the fight to Bruce but he was unhurt. Ever try escaping from a 250+ pounder when he's mounted on you?


BRUCE LEE OWNS THIS MATCH!
NO Doubt!, Tyson (no offense) is really stupid.... the main reason he'd lose is that Bruce is alot smarter then him, he would definitly find his weakness!

This proves Gunshin's point that you lack in higher-level thinking. I doubt you even read the entire thread or even the articles and references posted. If you're really 18 which I doubt because your writing and thinking skills are comparable to that of when I was in 6th grade, you should at least have some experience with thesis papers in where you use citations and list your sources rather than spout off bullshit. You provide no evidence whatsoever. Yeah, Tyson is dumb, but in the ring, he's about as cunning as any other heavyweight boxer. He's no Muhammed Ali, but he's no dummy when it comes to boxing and streetfighting (he came from a very harsh neighborhood and a gang) in general. If you're going to base intelligence on backgrounds, then look at the facts.

Adaptation is all good and fun but adaptation occurs when both of you are equally matched for the most part. That means that the fight has to last longer than a round.

Bruce Lee never raped a girl but he had an affair with Petty Ping. He was a trouble child who was involved in schoolyard fights. Tyson nor Bruce Lee graduated from college. Bruce Lee was obviously way more intellectual when it came to philosophy as that was his major in college, but I see no advantage when it comes to fighting. Both of them liked to fight dirty. It doesn't take a genius to find out that dirty tricks work in a streetfight.

[iaido]

Bruce Lee is winning 78-23 despite the facts presented. You know that you would get totally different results in genuine martial arts forums such as E-Budo rather than a manga/anime forum which perpetuates the Hong Kong style of movie kung fu. Hell, even the prepubescent-populated Bul Shi Do/McDojo forums would understand the logic presented.

[Gunshin]

Man, I just saw this post.
Did you watch the Bruce Lee documentary where he was schooling Kareem Abdul Jabar, a 7ft something basketball player? Bruce Lee is the man.
There's no such thing as weight class in true martial arts, you learn your art to beat the hell out of anybody if you need to fight although few martial arts actually preach fighting.
Yes there is a such thing as weight class. And your example is horrible. You're saying that strength is not a factor because Bruce dominated his bigger unexperienced student while sparring. That doesn't equal weight is not a factor. You want to know what does? Judoka Gene Lebell vs Bruce Lee would better suit your example because both have studied Martial Arts for a long time. Sadly for you, Gene Lebell beat Bruce multiple times. So you can't use that example. Pitty.

[Gunshin]

Bruce Lee is winning 78-23 despite the facts presented. You know that you would get totally different results in genuine martial arts forums such as E-Budo rather than a manga/anime forum which perpetuates the Hong Kong style of movie kung fu. Hell, even the prepubescent-populated Bul Shi Do/McDojo forums would understand the logic presented.
Hollywood Propoganda is a powerful thing my friend. Look how it affects politics.

[Sabaku no Ira]

Initially I would have thought about Bruce simply because I don't know much about Tyson (and boxing... the way I was taught boxers punch is that they punch with just the strength of the arm rather than using the entire body with the arms relaxed). But now I learnt a hell lot more about Tyson and boxing (with thanks to Gunshin and Iaido) and now I think that Tyson would most likely win (note the word "likely") if disregarding any random factors (such as Tyson being tied down or something like that. :P)

Out of topic, iaido, have you heard of something called Choi Lei Fot? It's the style of kung fu I've learnt and I want to hear your opinions.

[ValentineTheory]

You mean Choy Li Fut? I think we mentioned that in the "real life taijutsu" thread.

As far as boxing punches are taught, that pretty much the opposite. I know several karate and tae kwon do schools that teach that way though (you know with the horse stance and giving the ol "1!2!1!2!"

[Sabaku no Ira]

You mean Choy Li Fut? I think we mentioned that in the "real life taijutsu" thread.

Yeah. I only know the Cantonese name (and you know how Cantonese doesn't have a rigid, systematic way of "spelling" pronounciations... at least not one that is commonly known).

Did we? I better have a look and check then. :)

[iaido]

Initially I would have thought about Bruce simply because I don't know much about Tyson (and boxing... the way I was taught boxers punch is that they punch with just the strength of the arm rather than using the entire body with the arms relaxed). But now I learnt a hell lot more about Tyson and boxing (with thanks to Gunshin and Iaido) and now I think that Tyson would most likely win (note the word "likely") if disregarding any random factors (such as Tyson being tied down or something like that. :P)

Out of topic, iaido, have you heard of something called Choi Lei Fot? It's the style of kung fu I've learnt and I want to hear your opinions.
IMO, choy li fut is a legitimate martial art with a colorful history. Like many martial arts, the instructors have a traceable lineage. If you like choy li fut, then keep on doing it, why does my opinion matter? It's your choice and if you like it, keep on doing it. As for as practicality goes, it really depends on the quality of your instructor, especially with many traditional arts. Just remember that although you can ask for their lineage, it's not easily verifiable as there is no online database as is the case with the Gracies and BJJ.

[iaido]

Hollywood Propoganda is a powerful thing my friend. Look how it affects politics.
You mean Ben Affleck touring with John Kerry was just for publicity? I thought they were reaching out to the common people, the proletariat by visiting a Wendy's then going to their yacht to have shrimp gumbo and caviar.

[iaido]

I belive that even Tyson in his prime wouldn't stand a chance against Lee in his prime, Lee had unbelivable speed and power, He even made his own form of martial arts. I havent seen Tyson do anything like that, he is crap he had to resort to biteing some ones ear off to beat them. And i picked Lee in under 35 seconds because i reackon Lee would have him beat mentilly even before they get to the ring
So Tyson became the youngest heavyweight champion by biting people's ears? When was this?

Was Bruce Lee ever a champion?

And for your information, Bruce Lee's form of martial art wasn't new. He came up with a cool name for what people have been doing throughout history.

I doubt you're talking about Jun Fan kung fu because you don't seem knowledgeable about Lee. It was the only "style" that Lee developed ---> it included Western boxing and fencing principles along with wing chun.

[Sabaku no Ira]

IMO, choy li fut is a legitimate martial art with a colorful history. Like many martial arts, the instructors have a traceable lineage. If you like choy li fut, then keep on doing it, why does my opinion matter? It's your choice and if you like it, keep on doing it. As for as practicality goes, it really depends on the quality of your instructor, especially with many traditional arts. Just remember that although you can ask for their lineage, it's not verifiable or on an online database as is the case with the Gracies and BJJ.

Well, I don't know much about martial arts other than Choi Li Fut and you seem to be the expert in the field. I was just wondering if I have wasted five years of my life practicing something that's I cannot use to defend myself if I got mugged on the streets with a knife. *shrug*

And on topic, according to my master, Bruce Lee actually had a lesson from my master's master (I think) on Choi Li Fut. That's where the "three kicks" comes from (to quote my master's master's words "I can just stand there and give you three kicks"... er, well, something like that, at least...). Also, a funny thing: when my sister and I were watching Bruce's "Way of the Dragon", there was a scene when Bruce was punching an opponent in a swinging action and we both go "That's from Choi Li Fut!" :P.

[Gunshin]

I cannot use to defend myself if I got mugged on the streets with a knife. *shrug*

I know it's not directed at me, but I suggest you take eskrima if you want to deal with knives.

Realisticly, you want to defuse the situation as quick as possible even if you have to give up your wallet.

[iaido]

Well, I don't know much about martial arts other than Choi Li Fut and you seem to be the expert in the field. I was just wondering if I have wasted five years of my life practicing something that's I cannot use to defend myself if I got mugged on the streets with a knife. *shrug*
I really can't answer that because I don't know your instructor, your cirriculum, etc.

A few general questions:

How many hours is your class and how often do you train?

How often do you do what during class (does the majority of your class time included dead drills, live drills, sparring, etc.)?

If sparring is a major part of the cirriculum, how confident do you feel about challenging people outside your school?

Do you cover all ranges of combat? Striking, clinching, throwing/shooting (takedowns), groundfighting, multiple opponents, weapons?

------------

Here's my word of advice. If you are mugged, cooperate, especially if he has a knife. The odds are heavily stacked against you and I wouldn't do anything unless your life was in immediate danger. Even if you don't see the weapon, it doesn't mean he's carrying a weapon (unlikely if he doesn't mug you with it but I wouldn't risk it).

You want protection? Carry a gun. Gun not legal? Carry a legal knife, ASP, whatever. NO martial art can protect you from .45 ACP.

That said, my short stint with arnis/escrima/kali brought me to a wonderful world of stickfighting and knifefighting. Stickfighting also looks cool when you do it fast.

[Gunshin]

Never try to fight a gun, thats for sure. I read in this paper that a community college kid got killed when a two robbers broke in his apartment. He tried to disarm the attacker with the gun and got shot in the head.

Another example is one of my mentors, the late Alex Gong. He was a muay thai machine, but when an escaped convict hit his car, he went out to ask for the insurance. The guy tried to get away in his car. Alex followed. He got shot. Got killed.

Don't try to be a hero unless you're at that moment of life and death.

[¤Naruto-Kun¤]

T
This proves Gunshin's point that you lack in higher-level thinking. I doubt you even read the entire thread or even the articles and references posted. If you're really 18 which I doubt because your writing and thinking skills are comparable to that of when I was in 6th grade, you should at least have some experience with thesis papers in where you use citations and list your sources rather than spout off bullshit. You provide no evidence whatsoever. Yeah, Tyson is dumb, but in the ring, he's about as cunning as any other heavyweight boxer. He's no Muhammed Ali, but he's no dummy when it comes to boxing and streetfighting (he came from a very harsh neighborhood and a gang) in general. If you're going to base intelligence on backgrounds, then look at the facts.



LOL, what the F$#@ do u care how old i am? all i did was state my opinion of the matter, and my thinking skills are of yours in the 6th grade? man u need to eaze off, why the hell do u care so much what i say? ...just to let u know, you dont know crap about me, so watch you say ...*stupid prick*:mad

[Sabaku no Ira]

I know it's not directed at me, but I suggest you take eskrima if you want to deal with knives.

Realisticly, you want to defuse the situation as quick as possible even if you have to give up your wallet.

What is eskrima?

I really can't answer that because I don't know your instructor, your cirriculum, etc.

A few general questions:

How many hours is your class and how often do you train?

How often do you do what during class (does the majority of your class time included dead drills, live drills, sparring, etc.)?

If sparring is a major part of the cirriculum, how confident do you feel about challenging people outside your school?

Do you cover all ranges of combat? Striking, clinching, throwing/shooting (takedowns), groundfighting, multiple opponents, weapons?

------------

Here's my word of advice. If you are mugged, cooperate, especially if he has a knife. The odds are heavily stacked against you and I wouldn't do anything unless your life was in immediate danger. Even if you don't see the weapon, it doesn't mean he's carrying a weapon (unlikely if he doesn't mug you with it but I wouldn't risk it).

You want protection? Carry a gun. Gun not legal? Carry a legal knife, ASP, whatever. NO martial art can protect you from .45 ACP.

That said, my short stint with arnis/escrima/kali brought me to a wonderful world of stickfighting and knifefighting. Stickfighting also looks cool when you do it fast.

Well, back in HK I used to have a three-hour lesson every week where I got trained in the basic stuff such as foot-work, etc. Sometimes we have sparring matches (I love to do those with my friends there... we ended up with red arms lol) and sometimes we have free-for-all boxing matches with gloves and no rules (for some strange reason, though, despite that things never got too rough). However, if you want to you can train with him on a nightly basis which lasts for five hours (I did that for a couple of weeks before I left for Australia).

That was like five years ago now. At the moment I don't practice much (laziness+ work) but I still do force myself to practice the basic moves everyday (which lasts only for like five minutes... damn, I sound like a lazy bastard). So no, I don't think I'll last long against some mugger with a knife, but I'll fight anyway and see how it goes (so remember to come and visit my grave sometime! :laugh).

[Gunshin]

What is eskrima?


Eskrima (also known as Arnis and Kali) is a weapons based martial art which comes from the Philippines. It is the national sport of the Philippines,and has a very long history of combat effectiveness. Only recently has this art become more conspicuous in many countries and enjoyed the popularity of other more traditional Asian arts. Its difference from other martial arts is that the student is taught to train with weapons from the very start, rather than starting on empty hands training (like many martial arts do). This type of training builds manual dexterity in the practitioner and also trains faster conditioned responses to various attacks. Although it is weapons based, it also includes striking (kicking and punching), wrestling and grappling, and even groundfighting, as well as teaching practical defenses against most weapons. In the Philippines it is referred to as Arnis in the northern islands (Luzon), is known as Eskrima in the central islands (Visayas), and is known as Kali in the southern islands (Mindanao).

Famous people who do Eskrima:

Bruce Lee, Danny Inosanto, Paul Vunak...

Organisations that use Eskrima:


members of the Navy SEALS
members of the Special Forces
members of the Army Rangers
members of the San Diego Border Patrol
members of the Wauwatosa Police Department
members of the Madrid Police Department
members of the United States Special Operations Command
members of Tactical Response Systems
The Philippine Army
Physical education dept., Far East University, Manila
members of the Queensland Police Service, Queensland
Dynamic self-defence systems, Alberta

Eskrima is arguably the best knife fighting/stick fighting martial arts in the planet. IMO best in the planet. It's fun and very practical.

[Sabaku no Ira]

Famous people who do Eskrima:



Organisations that use Eskrima:



Eskrima is arguably the best knife fighting/stick fighting martial arts in the planet. IMO best in the planet. It's fun and very practical.

Hum... sounds like something I'll want to do. I feel that I need some weapon training since my staff skills (which is the only weapon I can use) sucks... Can't even hit properly (Hum... let's see. I hit my friend's finger during sparring, hit someone's head during training... yeah, that's about it, but still not a good record...).

I'll look out for it.

[iaido]

Ever see Bruce Lee use those two sticks in Enter the Dragon? Those are rattans, the weapon of arnis.



LOL, what the F$#@ do u care how old i am? all i did was state my opinion of the matter, and my thinking skills are of yours in the 6th grade? man u need to eaze off, why the hell do u care so much what i say? ...just to let u know, you dont know crap about me, so watch you say ...*stupid prick*:mad
Don't get your panties in a wad, you just proved my point that you lack critical thinking skills. You don't even understand the concepts of basic grammar.

[ValentineTheory]

LOL, My mother taught me escrima (tho not seriously like for training) <<<<<<full blooded filipino

but only with the kali sticks, my cousin taught me knife usage (a New Jersey inhabitant)

Another major difference in escrima is the bare handed strikes and it's application. Many of the strikes are taught as counter attacks to punches and kicks directed at the fists, feet, and ways to disable the limbs. It's quite an interesting concept. I never took the time to seriously learn from my mother, but i can see how it could be effective against someone a bit bigger than you (just look at the general height and weight of the filipino population, we're a bit below average).

Opponent attacks with fist > you counter with an elbow to meet the weak part of his fist(last two knuckles)

Opponent kicks > counter with an elbow to top of foot

These are basic concept examples of bare hand techs tho

[¤Naruto-Kun¤]

Ever see Bruce Lee use those two sticks in Enter the Dragon? Those are rattans, the weapon of arnis.


Don't get your panties in a wad, you just proved my point that you lack critical thinking skills. You don't even understand the concepts of basic grammar.

LOL, what are u trying to prove here? that your smarter then me?...jeez man this is naruto forums, not the Jerry Springer show...get a fuking life:laugh

[iaido]

LOL, My mother taught me escrima (tho not seriously like for training) <<<<<<full blooded filipino

but only with the kali sticks, my cousin taught me knife usage (a New Jersey inhabitant)

Another major difference in escrima is the bare handed strikes and it's application. Many of the strikes are taught as counter attacks to punches and kicks directed at the fists, feet, and ways to disable the limbs. It's quite an interesting concept. I never took the time to seriously learn from my mother, but i can see how it could be effective against someone a bit bigger than you (just look at the general height and weight of the filipino population, we're a bit below average).

Opponent attacks with fist > you counter with an elbow to meet the weak part of his fist(last two knuckles)

Opponent kicks > counter with an elbow to top of foot

These are basic concept examples of bare hand techs tho
It also makes you badass with a pipe which should come in handy for Jersey and New York folk. :cool

LOL, what are u trying to prove here? that your smarter then me?...jeez man this is naruto forums, not the Jerry Springer show...get a fuking life:laugh
Because you got a verbal beatdown with facts and superior reasoning skills, you run with your tail between your legs... I get it. If that's your only comeback to the facts presented, well then so be it.

And yeah, I am smarter than you; it's evident by the way you type.

[¤Naruto-Kun¤]

It also makes you badass with a pipe which should come in handy for Jersey and New York folk. :cool


Because you got a verbal beatdown with facts and superior reasoning skills, you run with your tail between your legs... I get it. If that's your only comeback to the facts presented, well then so be it.

And yeah, I am smarter than you; it's evident by the way you type.

LOL, i bet u go to "www.webster.com" , and then use the thesaurus...seriously man, i am not here to fight you i have nothing but respect for everyone on this board...but if u want to keep this goin..then so be it

[iaido]

LOL, i bet u go to "www.webster.com" , and then use the thesaurus...seriously man, i am not here to fight you i have nothing but respect for everyone on this board...but if u want to keep this goin..then so be it
Correct me if I'm wrong, but people are usually taught to capitalize "I" in kindergarten. A fight? How exactly are you going to fight me? Don't get your panties in a wad because I destroyed whatever thinking pattern you follow.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8702/sitinthecorner0jh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[¤Naruto-Kun¤]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but people are usually taught to capitalize "I" in kindergarten. A fight? How exactly are you going to fight me? Don't get your panties in a wad because I destroyed whatever thinking pattern you follow.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8702/sitinthecorner0jh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

LOL, excellent come back (:S ). I will be the bigger man, and tell you that i dont care what u say man, i am here to have a good time. So u can "post" whatever you want and i wont bother to reply...:laugh..so be my guest

[iaido]

LOL, excellent come back (:S ). I will be the bigger man, and tell you that i dont care what u say man, i am here to have a good time. So u can "post" whatever you want and i wont bother to reply...:laugh..so be my guest
You had no comeback to the facts presented. This is a common tactic used by people who lose an argument - to take the holier-than-thou approach to mask the fact that they really have no evidence.

[Yami no Takeshi]

Bruce Lee.
Why?
Kung Fu pwns Boxing. :D

[Gunshin]

Bruce Lee.
Why?
Kung Fu pwns Boxing. :D
Please explain this in a logical manner. Use examples too.

[Yami no Takeshi]

Please explain this in a logical manner. Use examples too.

Meh, merely joking man.
U and iaido have already proven ur points conclusively.
Tyson would most likely take down Lee.
The thread had gotten way to serious, so i just thought i add a bit of humour. :sweat

Sorry for any annoyance caused. :D

[Gunshin]

Meh, merely joking man.
U and iaido have already proven ur points conclusively.
Tyson would most likely take down Lee.
The thread had gotten way to serious, so i just thought i add a bit of humour. :sweat

Sorry for any annoyance caused. :D
Sorry, I just watched Family Guy the Movie and was horribly dissapointed. Kinda moody now. :mad

[KnightstaR]

if you think, marshal arts is all about defense and counter attacks. boxing is a full attacking sport. apart from the fact that there has never been a boxer in history that could beat bruce lee, lee would use all of tysons attacks against him and unleash total pwnage. but if all fails he could always try and bite his ear off:D

[Rice Ball]

Bruce Lee

Mike in his prime was a animial. But boxers rely too much on the rules of the sport. Lee would just boot him really hard in the nuts.

[Gunshin]

if you think, marshal arts is all about defense and counter attacks. boxing is a full attacking sport. apart from the fact that there has never been a boxer in history that could beat bruce lee, lee would use all of tysons attacks against him and unleash total pwnage. but if all fails he could always try and bite his ear off:D
Boxing is a full attacking sport? I'm sorry, but i'm calling BS on your knowledge of boxing.

1. Parries
2. Palm blocks
3. Double-forearm block
4. Elbow Block
5. Shoulder Rolls (ie. Dempsey Roll)
6. Defensive Clinching (I can write paragraphs on the different types)
7. Defensive Footwork (I can write paragraphs here too)
8. Weaving

And how do you know there has never been a boxer who can beat Bruce Lee when Bruce Lee has never fought even a boxer? Better yet, what makes you think Bruce Lee can win a fight against a professional fighter in general when Bruce rarely competed? What makes you think Brcue can theoreticaly win when one of the few documented times he competed, he lost to Judoka Gene Lebell multiple times to the point that Bruce forced Brandon Lee to train at his dojo?

So many people shit on boxing, like it's a joke. Funny thing is that Bruce Lee idolized Muhamed Ali and admited that he had better speed and footwork.

**Got Hollywood Propoganda?**

Bruce Lee

Mike in his prime was a animial. But boxers rely too much on the rules of the sport. Lee would just boot him really hard in the nuts.
And Bruce fought where? I hope you know Wing Tsung tournaments also have rules. I also hope you know that Tyson has had many battles on the street.

[Yami no Takeshi]

People.
Just read Gunshin's posts on the last few pages.
There is more than enough proof there to show that Mike can and most likely will take down Lee.
Lee is mostly Hollywood propoganda, Mike was the real deal.
An annoyed Gunshin is no someone u want to get to know. :sweat

[Gunshin]

People.
Just read Gunshin's posts on the last few pages.
There is more than enough proof there to show that Mike can and most likely will take down Lee.
Lee is mostly Hollywood propoganda, Mike was the real deal.
An annoyed Gunshin is no someone u want to get to know. :sweat
It's just hilarious to me how people (most of who know nothing about Bruce or Tyson) can make ridiculous statements that a 144lb man who wasn't ranked high in his base martial art can beat a 244lb+ man who was ranked very high in his base martial art and had a lot of experience. And a good majority of them shit on boxing, and give Bruce more credibility for his movies (which Gene Lebell has stated is NOT how Lee actualy fights) than Tyson for his real fights. Check this out.

Here is Mike Zambidis. He has over 130 fights under his belt and has only lost 12 of those by decision. He has 80 KO's.

http://s19.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1G2G59AR6UROQ03YSQA9SRNBFH

I bet you 3/4th of the people here would say "LEE PWNS him! He's ffaster and stronger!111 HOw?!!111 I don't know, but the Game of Death is teh DOPENESS!!111"

If Hollywood wanted too, I bet they can sell Micheal Moore as the best martial artist in history, and people here would buy it. :laugh

[iaido]

Bruce Lee

Mike in his prime was a animial. But boxers rely too much on the rules of the sport. Lee would just boot him really hard in the nuts.
Who said all Tyson could do was punch? Obviously his forte is with his hands but he came from a very rough neighborhood and was involved in gangs. I'm sure he knows a few tricks up his sleeves.

Come on now, Tyson is the last person who would follow boxing rules in a streetfight.

[Rice Ball]

Hehe i suppose thats true, Mikes broke the rules more than once :p


What i ment is mike wouldn't have a great 'Full Defence' (When Ali Faught a Martialartist his legs were almost completely unprotected by his boxing style and he ended up loosing the match)

My dad saw Bruce Lee in wales during an tour, he couldn't believe how he was, lee was fast enough to touch someones forehead before they had time to react at all, it was like a blink.

People saying mike Tyson was the 'Real Deal' but Bruce Lee was a Whoney don't know what the hell they are talking about, both were very good at there profession in there prime. I stated my reason why i believe Lee would win, and i believe it, if you don't, its your choice, its a public forum why complain about what other people think.

[Gunshin]

What i ment is mike wouldn't have a great 'Full Defence'
So you're saying Mike Tyson can't defend kicks? Thats funny, last time I checked, Tyson trains Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech.

(When Ali Faught a Martialartist his legs were almost completely unprotected by his boxing style and he ended up loosing the match)
Ali asked for special rules, and they were the most retarded special rules in history. Furthermore, do you think Lee would fight like that? Lee was a primary striker, he'd trade. And funny thing you mention Ali, because Lee idolized him and admited Ali was faster.

My dad saw Bruce Lee in wales during an tour, he couldn't believe how he was, lee was fast enough to touch someones forehead before they had time to react at all, it was like a blink.
Theres also a popular story that Jet Li was a Shaolin Monk.

People saying mike Tyson was the 'Real Deal' but Bruce Lee was a Whoney don't know what the hell they are talking about, both were very good at there profession in there prime.
You're right. Both were good at their professions. Tyson was a professional fighter, and Lee was a professional actor. As far as Tyson and movies is concerned, he's a bad actor. I saw him in Crocodile Hunter 3. Sucked. As for Bruce in fighting, he's unaccomplished. He was low ranked in Wing Tsung. Rarely competed. We do know that Gene Lebell beat him though, so he can't be as fast as the "Flash", an image people are trying to make him out to be.

I stated my reason why i believe Lee would win, and i believe it, if you don't, its your choice, its a public forum why complain about what other people think.
I can respect that. However, theres two sides. It is a public forum. So I can respond to a post right? :laugh

[Rice Ball]

So you're saying Mike Tyson can't defend kicks? Thats funny, last time I checked, Tyson trains Muay Thai with Jeff Fenech.
Ali asked for special rules, and they were the most retarded special rules in history. Furthermore, do you think Lee would fight like that? Lee was a primary striker, he'd trade. And funny thing you mention Ali, because Lee idolized him and admited Ali was faster.
Theres also a popular story that Jet Li was a Shaolin Monk.
You're right. Both were good at their professions. Tyson was a professional fighter, and Lee was a professional actor. As far as Tyson and movies is concerned, he's a bad actor. I saw him in Crocodile Hunter 3. Sucked. As for Bruce in fighting, he's unaccomplished. He was low ranked in Wing Tsung. Rarely competed. We do know that Gene Lebell beat him though, so he can't be as fast as the "Flash", an image people are trying to make him out to be.

I can respect that. However, theres two sides. It is a public forum. So I can respond to a post right? :laugh


I hate it when people break up posts, makes it a pain in the ass to reply too.
As you've said your bullshit and i've said mine, there no point trying to make the other 'believe'.

I'll just reply to your send paragraph

Yes its a forum and you can post what you think ^^ If your don't respect what other people think then theres no real point in posting, no one will respect what you put down.

(Even if for one minute i thought tyson would be able to win, i still wouldn't have voted for him, Rapist belongs in a small Jail cell until he dies, so i guess my comments are bias :p)

[ValentineTheory]

well, this is slightly off topic, but i also wanted to bring up changes in athletic training history. Nowadays, athletes are generally stronger, faster, and better at what they do because of new technology and science proven, sport specific, higher efficiency traing than they did even 5 years ago. Even more so back in the 60's.

My theory with this is that Bruce was a pioneer in new sports medicine and training. He liked new training devices and regimes. One of those was plyometrics, which is fairly new by historical standards, and didn't become popular until the 70's, so Bruce alone had that kind of speed and power. But Nowadays almost any serious competitor, no matter what sport, does plyometrics to improve their performance.

Also take into account Bruce's "speed" and "Power". In all the clips you see of him punching, he almost never used boxing gloves. Believe it or not, those stupid 10 oz and 12oz competition gloves reduce speed and power MASSIVELY for a lighter person like Bruce. Im pretty sure I could at least punch as fast as he could with no gloves on.

The purpose of this is to dispel any esoteric beliefs about Bruce's wonder like physique, and to put it closer to earth. He's not superman...just a 5 foot 4, 143 pound man with a new ideas and a pioneer for his time. Now his time is over. I can think of Dozens who , in the same weight class, can overshadow Bruce in his prime in fighting.

<<<<<EDIT

There's a reason why Im an EX- Martial artist. While most martial arts are philosophy and theory, boxing is a solid and proven experience. These days, martial arts is a joke in most places. Tho not true EVERYWHERE, it's my 8+ years of experience with martial arts and NEVER being challenged enough. Boxers are too underrated and martial arts just ridiculously underestimated or overhyped...Don't get me wrong, I still practice Martial arts, but i don't claim a style, I just use what works....With that said, this is the core of Bruce's philosophy. Even Bruce picked up things from boxing and a variety of other martial arts and combined them because he saw obvious flaws in the martial art. But even that can't make up for the fact that he would be physically inferior or at best average to the athletes of today.

[Sabaku no Ira]

Theres also a popular story that Jet Li was a Shaolin Monk.

Isn't he though? I thought that he was brought up in the Shaolin temple.

[Gunshin]

Isn't he though? I thought that he was brought up in the Shaolin temple.
No, he wasn't. It's one of those BS rumors like Bruce being so fast you can't see him move. Jet Li talked about this before and laughed at it.

Even if for one minute i thought tyson would be able to win, i still wouldn't have voted for him, Rapist belongs in a small Jail cell until he dies, so i guess my comments are bias
Tyson was convicted a rapist in a "she said" vs "he said" case. Tyson denied it before and after prison. She claimed it before and after the money. Koby Bryant anyone?

[iaido]

(Even if for one minute i thought tyson would be able to win, i still wouldn't have voted for him, Rapist belongs in a small Jail cell until he dies, so i guess my comments are bias :p)
Well, I agree that Mike Tyson is scum and he does belong in jail for rape. I do acknowledge his fighting ability though.


As far as Tyson and movies is concerned, he's a bad actor. I saw him in Crocodile Hunter 3.

Breathe in the positivity and breathe out the negativity.

[iaido]

There's a reason why Im an EX- Martial artist. While most martial arts are philosophy and theory, boxing is a solid and proven experience. These days, martial arts is a joke in most places. Tho not true EVERYWHERE, it's my 8+ years of experience with martial arts and NEVER being challenged enough. Boxers are too underrated and martial arts just ridiculously underestimated or overhyped...Don't get me wrong, I still practice Martial arts, but i don't claim a style, I just use what works....With that said, this is the core of Bruce's philosophy. Even Bruce picked up things from boxing and a variety of other martial arts and combined them because he saw obvious flaws in the martial art. But even that can't make up for the fact that he would be physically inferior or at best average to the athletes of today.

It's called a McDojo. Sign a contract, pay, and you are basically guarnteed a black belt in a year or so. Mainstream, commericalized, stamped, and ready to order.

It's not challenging and it was designed that way. If McDojos were hard, not a lot of people would sign up. They have to advertise self-defense to attract a certain target group - out-of-shape people who want to basically pay to be a badass within three short weeks of one hour lessons, three times a day paying $200. They want to take a shortcut in being badass when all they're getting is a false idea of security. I've been around McDojos all my life and I've seen some of the worst out-of-shape POS black belts ever.

Never mind physical conditioning, that would cause people to quit within months. Why do you think that high school wrestling has such a high attrition rate? Or the military special operations indoctrination/entrance programs?

Most people want to be badass or at least think they're hardcore by taking the easy route. Of course this doesn't happen. Are they willing to work hard for it? No. Are they willing to shell out money for it? Sure, because paying money is easier than training hard :eyeroll.

Then comes the contact part. Most people are willing to be hardcore as long as it doesn't involve them getting hit in the face. Oh, the irony.

I'm not trying to bash traditional martial arts as I practice a few of them myself hence the "iaido" alias. First off, let me differentiate between classical martial arts and traditional martial arts by saying that classical martial arts were developed in history for combat and war. Traditional martial arts primarily deals with the 19th and 20th century where there wasn't as much refinement and evolution. Again, I'm not bashing traditional martial arts, merely what happened to them; most of the schools sold out. Not only did the schools sell out, I am highly critical of the way most of these mall dojos/McDojos train.

What's worse is that McDojos are gaining popularity at such an alarming rate. Mothers dropping off their kids for one-hour "karate" or TKD sessions, etc. Not that I'm saying it's a bad idea, it's a very good idea. Both parties will benefit. However, most parents look at how the instructor gets along with kids and substitute him for a babysitter rather than how well he trains kids to fight. This is a parenting issue so I won't go any deeper than that. However, I can confidently say that my TKD experience (which wasn't McDojang) helped my physical speed, agility, balance, and coordination. There are McDojang people I know who can do all the flashy 720*+ spinning kicks who are all incredible overall athletes.

ValentineTheory, this isn't directed to you but for all the products of McDojos who are perpetuated by Hollywood myth and think that Bruce Lee > All.

[iaido]

Tyson was convicted a rapist in a "she said" vs "he said" case. Tyson denied it before and after prison. She claimed it before and after the money. Koby Bryant anyone?
Yeah, it was a she said he said case. I don't know that much about the case, but a jury found him guilty and nobody would be convicted solely on testimony. Criminal courts must find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. My knowledge on the exact details of the case is sketchy and I wasn't a jury member who was presented with the evidence. I have confidence in the US judicial system and if a jury, however they feel about Tyson, would not convict him unless he was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

But then again, Tyson has worked with Don King and with Don King, anything is possible :eyeroll

[copyninja_kakashi]

That's a foolish statement on many accounts.

1. Boxing is a martial art. In case you didn't know, kung fu is merely Chinese boxing. The boxing you refer to is a Western martial art. Martial arts aren't limited to just East Asia.

2. The better fighter would win 90% of the time. Those of you who've fought on the street, in a cage, on the mat, or in a ring know that luck definately is a big part of fighting.

3. What's a martial arts master? Does it have to be an old Asian guy with a white beard or mustache?

4. What credentials or experience do you have to make such a statement? Where in your 14 years of existence do you base your statement on?

5. Have you ever seen a martial arts "master" fight a boxer? If so, how many times?

6. What about a kung fu "master" versus a boxing "master"?

7. This ties in with #2. Do you realize that you can't win every time no matter who you fight? I've lost in a muay thai rules kickboxing match against a guy I KOed in the 1st or 2nd round three times. Shit happens.

8. If you really held to Bruce Lee's ideals, do you realize that you're basically pissing on his grave with your statement?

9. Everyone who's studied martial arts and has actually been in a fight knows this... Style matters not, we have a head, two arms, a body, and two legs. We can use our weapons any way we want to but there are only so many ways anyone can fight. Emphasis on #2, the better fighter would win regardless of style.

10. I owned you bitch.
i know it took me days to respond but you have a point i totally agree with you now that i read this i don't even know why you bother
but the part i owned you bitch just pissed me off
but since i don't really give a fuck i would let it go
i'll admit you totally burn me but my vote doesn't
change i still vote for Bruce Lee
didn't mean to offend who however you spell it

[RaitoRyuukashin]

SILENCE U DOUBTERS AND FEAR MIKES WORLD WIDE

http://gorillamask.net/miketyson.shtml

[Uchiha_Sasuke_12]

well, i voted for bruce lee. i had to, he's one of my idols. but i decided to read some of these comments and i must say, maybe i have overrated this guy way too much. i guess i envision tyson as just a boxer who has a "striker's chance" going up against a complete martial artist who has much more approach capabilites. i guess i was just thinking of the many times i've seen bigger guys go down to more skilled fighters. i didn't really think about how good mr lee really is, and good points where made about tyson being a brawler, too. argghhh.....no i'm undecided, sorry about the impulsive vote.

[RaitoRyuukashin]

blah noones going to watch the video -_-

[Uchiha_Sasuke_12]

just did, ah, the good ol' days, i must admit, tyson is my favorite boxer......okay, okay, you've swayed me. damn you for being right, or at least making me change my mind. good job...rep points!

[RaitoRyuukashin]

one vote at a time $.

[Uchiha_Sasuke_12]

so i went to work yesterday and brought up the same conversation with a coworker. made him switch to tyson. well, kinda, see everyone still puts money on the martial arts icon.

[RaitoRyuukashin]

Its because of that hes an Icon... sad confusion between the lines of tv and reality.

[iaido]

SILENCE U DOUBTERS AND FEAR MIKES WORLD WIDE

http://gorillamask.net/miketyson.shtml
He looked like he was in better shape in Punch-Out. :huh

[Vamoo]

The only place Tyson would win consistently is in the ring. Outside, where Lee can exert perfect distance control and take full advantage of greater reach it would be the opposite. There's really no sense in discussing differences in martial arts or sports: the whole point in training is acting and reacting way faster than you can think; just knowing what you should do won't cut it. Pro boxers and wing-chun masters train in different ways, for different fights, different goals, in different conditions.
Any one of the two could win in any given situation.

[Gunshin]

The only place Tyson would win consistently is in the ring. Outside, where Lee can exert perfect distance control and take full advantage of greater reach it would be the opposite.
Why would Lee win consistantly outside a ring? Inside/outside a ring, Tyson still has the size, strength advantage. I'd also like to add that boxing places a lot of empahsis on how to control space and distance. These concepts work inside a ring, or out of it.

It's a matter of size, strength, good speed (close to Lee's), activness, and (most of all) *experience*. Tyson wins 9 out of 10.

PS. People need to stop thinking boxing is only practical for a ring. Boxing is one of the oldest martial arts, and all of the great martial artist respect it *INCLUDING* Bruce Lee (who idolized Muhamad Ali for his superior speed).

[Ephemeral]

Tyson = Heavyweight / Lee = Featherweight

[Hitomi_No_Ryu]

Bruce Lee will win...mostly because Tyson will be back in jail for something before round 3 ends...

[Sabaku no Ira]

Bruce Lee will win...mostly because Tyson will be back in jail for something before round 3 ends...
:laugh:laugh:laugh

[Gunshin]

Bruce Lee will win...mostly because Tyson will be back in jail for something before round 3 ends...
Yeah, for the death of Bruce Lee. :D

[Sabaku no Ira]

Just for the record, how many times did Tyson ended up in jail for some reason? I was wondering if the prison is starting to reserve a cell just for him... :P

[Vamoo]

Why would Lee win consistantly outside a ring? Inside/outside a ring, Tyson still has the size, strength advantage.
That's because Tyson't fighting techniques rely heavily on strength and size. It's not a coincidence if boxer have divisions of weight (something that doesn't happen in street fights), neither it is a coincidence if most martial arts practitioners rarely develop that kind of size.

I'd also like to add that boxing places a lot of empahsis on how to control space and distance. These concepts work inside a ring, or out of it.
They don't so well when you cannot enclose your opponent in a small space and he doesn't need to get as close to hit you as you need to get to him. In boxing, a reach longer by a couple of inches is an advantage; hell, even one inch is an advantage.
Lee's leg is longer than that compared to Tyson's arm.

It's a matter of size, strength, good speed (close to Lee's), activness, and (most of all) *experience*. Tyson wins 9 out of 10.

PS. People need to stop thinking boxing is only practical for a ring. Boxing is one of the oldest martial arts, and all of the great martial artist respect it *INCLUDING* Bruce Lee (who idolized Muhamad Ali for his superior speed).
Where did you get this superior speed thing? Sure Ali was fast, but there were a lot of people faster than him, including Lee. There *is* a reason he didn't train for bulk and didn't put on too much weight.
You need to stop thinking that most other fighting techniques are only good for movies or phonie dojos; I've seen and been in a few fights in the streets and they don't boxe.

There's little point in comparing fighters from different generations and suche different backgrounds but if Bruce Lee was here today it would probably go as I said in my previous post.

[iaido]

That's because Tyson't fighting techniques rely heavily on strength and size. It's not a coincidence if boxer have divisions of weight (something that doesn't happen in street fights), neither it is a coincidence if most martial arts practitioners rarely develop that kind of size.


They don't so well when you cannot enclose your opponent in a small space and he doesn't need to get as close to hit you as you need to get to him. In boxing, a reach longer by a couple of inches is an advantage; hell, even one inch is an advantage.
Lee's leg is longer than that compared to Tyson's arm.


Where did you get this superior speed thing? Sure Ali was fast, but there were a lot of people faster than him, including Lee. There *is* a reason he didn't train for bulk and didn't put on too much weight.
You need to stop thinking that most other fighting techniques are only good for movies or phonie dojos; I've seen and been in a few fights in the streets and they don't boxe.

There's little point in comparing fighters from different generations and suche different backgrounds but if Bruce Lee was here today it would probably go as I said in my previous post.
Ah geez, you must be one of those people who didn't bother reading the entire thread.

Where do you get that Lee is faster than Ali?

Where we get Ali is faster than Lee is Lee's own admission not to mention the analysis of hundreds of sportscasters who talked the phantom punch to death.

Did you even bother watching the Tyson highlight clip? Tyson is big and strong, but he hardly just overpowers his opponents. He has a big left hook and a big right cross that can take people out but it takes speed and skill to land it. If you've even seen the video clip which I doubt, you'd see him slipping (ducking), rolling, and sidestepping. In fact, he made a lot of his opponents look foolish when all they hit was air.

Sure the leg is longer than the arm. I got you. But The arm is faster than the leg. If someone checks or dodges the kick, he is open to a counter-attack. Why do you think kickboxers/muay thai fighters use punches to set up their kicks, or punches/knees/elbows/whatever immediately following their kicks a lot of the time? A professional fighter of almost any style would know how to gauge distance and attack. Bruce Lee wasn't a professional fighter nonetheless a champion.

What makes you think too much bulk slows you down? I agree that a bodybuilder would be too bulky and those muscles would definately slow you down (despite what that one bodybuilder tried to prove by racing that Olympic sprinter) but your natural limits won't slow you down horribly. You see, I already explained this before, but you tend to have selective sight. Your genetics determine how big you naturally are and how big you can naturally get. Bruce Lee was naturally a skinny guy and no matter how hard he trained, he wouldn't be a bodybuilder even with steroids. Bolo Leung on the other hand naturally has a large skeletal frame to pack on mass.

But you're right, Bruce Lee didn't necessarily train for bulk, he trained for practical strength as well as power and endurance. That's why you see powerlifters who don't have as large a muscles as bodybuilders yet are stronger than them in any lift by a couple hundred pounds. Tyson trained for strength, endurance, and power. Tyson is naturally big. At 18, he was bigger than most 25 year olds. He's going to pack on mass no matter how he trains. But it really doesn't matter because he's a heavyweight so the mass wouldn't hurt him. It didn't slow him down. Actually, I think he was faster as a pro than he was as an amateur despite weight a lot less.

For streetfighting, you've probably seen untrained people fight. Even then, what do you think were the moves used? Punches were probably the #1 technique used, and a tackle would be second. Some ground rolling, someone gets a mount and starts punching again. I've seen one too many fights like that. They are merely crappy punches, crappy takedowns, and a crappy finish.

A well-trained fighter would make short of Haymaker Joe any day of the week. The adrenaline starts pumping and you lose fine motor control, but you don't unlearn years of training. You will still know how to slip and bash the guy's face in... It's just move at a pace that's 10x faster than a competition bout; you'll hit and you'll keep on hitting until he can't hit you any more.

[Gunshin]

Gee, you pretty much covered everything for me Iaido. :D

I don't think this guy has ever trained in boxing either. His theory for it is wrong. He also didn't bother to read the thread obviously, because he's mentioning a lot of things that have already been covered (like Tyson having kick defense).

[iaido]

Gee, you pretty much covered everything for me Iaido. :D

I don't think this guy has ever trained in boxing either. His theory for it is wrong. He also didn't bother to read the thread obviously, because he's mentioning a lot of things that have already been covered (like Tyson having kick defense).
Even if Tyson didn't train in muay thai, I'd give it to him.

[Gunshin]

Even if Tyson didn't train in muay thai, I'd give it to him.
Me too. He has too many factors in his favor. Mainly size, strength, *proven* cardio, chin, and (most importantly) fighting experience.

[Rice Ball]

Read the whole thread guys

Gunshin and iaido have put a suprising ammount of effort into facts :p


(as much as i disagree :p)

[Sabaku no Ira]

Well, Tyson used to be my favourite boxer (though I don't know anyone else other than him at that time) up until he started the habit of landing up in jails... speaking of such, no one seems to have answered my question about the number of times Tyson ended up in prison. :P

[Gunshin]

Well, Tyson used to be my favourite boxer (though I don't know anyone else other than him at that time) up until he started the habit of landing up in jails... speaking of such, no one seems to have answered my question about the number of times Tyson ended up in prison. :P
I think he went once. He got a close second when he beat up a couple who hit his car and tried to leave or somthing like that.

[Sabaku no Ira]

:rofl Good old Tyson... :laugh

[blind51de]

Already been proven by that one video that Wing Chun kung fu >>>> Boxing.

[iaido]

Already been proven by that one video that Wing Chun kung fu >>>> Boxing.
What makes you say that?

The only thing that's proven is that you don't know what you're talking about. If Bruce Lee were alive, he'd agree with me here based on what you just said.

Damn it, no matter how hard you try, no matter how many facts you present, no matter how little the other guy knows... They dogmatically adhere to their beliefs. They don't follow any discernable thought process. Using logic won't work either.

I suggest you reread Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

But then again wing chun >>>>> boxing is your opinion, not Bruce's. So I'm wondering why you think that. Give factual reasons and if you're making personal observations, give us your credentials in wing chun, boxing, or martial arts in general so we can decide for ourselves if your observations are worth a dime.

[Gunshin]

Already been proven by that one video that Wing Chun kung fu >>>> Boxing.
Dude, if you're basing your opinion a stupid video, I have SOOOO many vids of Wing Tsung getting owned by different martial arts which include: boxing, brazillian jiu jitsu, wrestling, kyokushin karate, and etc.. LOL.

One video doesn't prove how one individual can beat another individual. And in order for that video to even be remotely valid, the boxer would have to be a HW Champion, and the Wing Tsung guy would have to be around 140-145lbs.

[iaido]

Dude, if you're basing your opinion a stupid video, I have SOOOO many vids of Wing Tsung getting owned by different martial arts which include: boxing, brazillian jiu jitsu, wrestling, kyokushin karate, and etc.. LOL.

One video doesn't prove how one individual can beat another individual. And in order for that video to even be remotely valid, the boxer would have to be a HW Champion, and the Wing Tsung guy would have to be around 140-145lbs.
I used to have this video of a wing chun guy getting owned by a taijiquan guy who looked to be about 20. The wing chun guy was supposed to be a senior student while the taijuquan guy was a young nobody. It was full-contact and the wing chun guy got knocked the f out.

Like he said, to base such a major conclusion on a video isn't going to cut it.

[CABLE]

Tyson. If you think Bruce Lee would win, you've been watching a little to much anime where the little guy always beats the shit out of the big guy due to his superior technique and the big guy's reliance on his size alone. Tyson is a very good fighter, and his agility and such is probably better than Bruce Lee's. Tyson would take out Lee then eat his children for dinner.

[Edgecrusher]

:laugh At first, I wasn't sure. I almost ended up picking Bruce Lee, but I really didn't know, so I chose they both randomly explode before I read the thread. Reading some of the thread, I really must thank iaido and Gunshin for informing me on all of this. I learned a lot.

I also realize Lee's not the best. My father told me about this guy he met years and years ago, that he believes is better than Lee. (Sorry, I know that sounds vague...) It came as a surprise to me, because I was largely uninformed about Lee, except the details surrounding his death.

Boxing's nothing to sneeze at (esp. not Tyson), as many saps are doing in this thread (though I do admit I myself haven't seen many matches). Some of those fighters get serious head damage from too many a jab. Just as dangerous and real thing as any other kind of martial art.

Though, I think I'd rather see a Kickboxer against Lee :cool

[The 21st Hokage]

In his prime Tyson

Now Bruce Lee.

[Ephemeral]

This is why they have weight classes, so the bigger guys don't kill the smaller guys =) Prime Tyson > Lee.

[RugaRell]

Bruce Lee hands down, he would be to fast and to smart to loose a fight against tyson. Plus tyson is to busy trying to get into the porn movies, lol i still laugh everytime someone tells me about that

[Shinobu]

Bruce lee would most definitly kill Tyson.His skill and strength would smash on Tyson's ear biting tactics.

[Ephemeral]

Bruce lee would most definitly kill Tyson.His skill and strength would smash on Tyson's ear biting tactics.

What about Tyson's boxing skill and strength? Tyson knows how to take and give punches, lets see Lee take a Tyson right hook to the head =). I'm sure Lee has many faults as well so don't just jump on Tyson's ear biting thing. Many fighters get frustrated and do things that they know they shouldn't.

[Jedi Mind Tricks]

In his prime Tyson

Now Bruce Lee.

Now Bruce Lee?

Fighting a dead man isn't that difficult. I'll go with the living body rather than the corpse.

In both their primes, Tyson would win (as iaido and gunshin have pointed out, read through the topic and you will know why).

People that think otherwise really should stop believing stuff that happens in anime and movies.

[Kyuubi Naruto]

For some reason I think that people think that Bruce Lee will be fighting like Lee was against Gaara...

[Kunoichi no Kiri]

The most overrated character on this forum is now Bruce Lee. =/

[iaido]

The most overrated character on this forum is now Bruce Lee. =/
I wouldn't say that, there's always Batman w/ preptime and Maestro Hulk.

[iaido]

This is why they have weight classes, so the bigger guys don't kill the smaller guys =) Prime Tyson > Lee.
Heavyweight matches are also boring, no offense to the bigger guys. Tyson was one of the few heavyweights I liked to watch and with the exception of notables such as Ali, etc., I prefer watching matches that are light heavyweight and under for boxing, kickboxing, Olympic wrestling, judo, and MMA. I don't want to pay over $30 for a PPV event to watch those freak match-ups in the old UFC days where they had a 500+ lb sumo guy go at it with some smaller guy who would just kick him in the leg until the fat guy fell down. I'd watch Sugar Ray Robinson over Lennox Lewis any day of the week. Damn, Lewis was boring.

[jemakai]

My sister is in boxing and was ranked 2nd in the world in her weight class before she had her son, her husband is an olympic bronze medalist. I have asked her if a featherweight would have a chance against a heavy weight, she told me he didn't. She compared that fight to me(20 years old 160lb) against my cousin(7 years old probably around 80lb).
Lee doesn't really have a chance, in a street fight I assume it would be even worst for him because Tyson obviously knows how to fight dirty. This is an anime forum after all, alot of these guys don't really use logic.

[itachidattebayo]

Bruce Lee as his kung-fu is more of technique and counters than speed and strength.......