Rate your 5 top-tier nen-users!! [Archive]

uchiha-alia

10-14-2008, 04:19 PM

I worked on a poll...but you know me! I put some effort in it, and had 26 different names on it, so everybody could choose what he wanted (even Pokkuru). But I didn't know you only had 10 minutes to make a poll!!! That's like, super fast! A one-liner post! My posts usually take 40 minutes - if it's a quick one...

Can I still add a poll by doing edit or something?

pm a mod (halfhearted since hes a hxh fan and mods this section) with your poll, im sure he'll add it :amuse

As for the top-tiers in nen-use, hmmm... Well with all variables in place (i.e. while fighting a member of the Ryodan), its pretty broken for Kurapica to be able to use ALL NEN GROUPS AT 100% :argh the possiblities for that are endless (far more than you can imagine) and is the closest to an unbeatable hatsu as we have seen in HXH (if used right). Emporer Time straight away places Kurapica in the top tier for nen-use (when fighting a Ryodan).

In a fight, Feitan can more or less guarantee a win against any opponent who isnt at least alot stronger than him (which isnt gonna be likely considering how strong and fast HE is) and doesnt know about Pain Packer (Hell, even if he did, whats he gonna do :zaru?). Pain Packer is a pretty broken ability and is undoubtedly top tier nen-use, especially since its been implied that what we have seen isnt all there is to it (well, to Feitans hatsu atleast), hell, Feitan could theoretically even hurt himself and deal that damage to an opponent. Feitan wasnt TOO beat up again the 'ant queen', and his Pain Packer THEN scorched and easily went past her fairly good resistance and durability. TOP TIER NEN = FEITAN = EPIC = :gar = PEDO :argh

Then we come to everyone's favourite. Hisoka's Bungee Gum is such a versatile thing, extremely useful to him in all cases and unstoppable in combat if used to it's full potential. Ive already posted in the HXH thread quite a long post and why this ability is awesome and i acnt be bothered to type the same thing up :argh Another ability that EVERYONE SEEMS TO FORGET ABOUT that Hisoka has is his 'decietful texture', where he can made any object 'transform' and appear to be another object. This has tactical use in battle (like against Kastro) and is quite good nen. HISOKA IS TOP TIER :gar

Danchou's Ability doesnt even need to be mentioned. TOP TIER. BROKEN. AWESOME. Ive typed a long post up in the HXH thread about why this is awesome, cant be bothered to type the same things, doesnt really need discussion. We know this deserves its spot.

Meruems Ability. lol gets EVEN STRONGER AND BEASTIER with every guy he eats, LOL OVERPOWERED. goddamn i feel sorry for the world if Meruem ate all the other guys mentioned so far :argh

so thats the top 5.
others:
- Netero and hyakushiki kannon are easily awesome, and extremely effective and powerful, but we dont know enough about this, or his other abilities, to really say is he deserves his spot ahead of any of the other 5.
-Leol (or i think thats his name, the lion ant): has a very good ability, satisfying a favour to any person will give him their ability, an even better method of stealing then Danchou's ?! :argh
-Shalnark: Manipulation epic is epic.
-Phinx: THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS!!! but its for real this time. If he winds his arm up- say- 100 times? HOW DAMN POWERFUL WILL IT BE
-Killua: top reactions + Kammaru = FUCK YEAH :gar
- ZENO AND SILVA: THEY DESERVE TO BE UP THERE. dont know enoough about Silva or even Zeno for that matter but 300m En is crazy shit
-other ryodan members: yes, yes, yes.

Power16

10-14-2008, 04:27 PM

From what we've seen i would say Zeno is at the top. Netero did show the ability to attack and that quick moment and send whats her/his face flying but it had no damage and even though Zeno did mention Netero would always make him cry we barely seen the extent of his powers.

Zeno showed his intelligence in the Kuroro exchange and show that he can grasp a situation quickly and make it to his adavantage. He's has great confident in his power but doesn't seem to overstimate himself or his opponent as show by his comment to Kuroro after the exchange. Which in itself speak of his experience in battles. Living at the Zoaldyack mention its almost guarantee that he can open all 7 doors so he should be able to push like 246 or 512 ton which speaks of his strength and the defense of Kuroro. Kuroro did speak of his deadlyness just from him putting nen in his hand. His nen dragon was pretty quick as it was able to catch Kuroro and from recent chapter we've seen him create a giant on that split into many that bombarded a whole castle and its territories.

Kuroro would be next in line just from him being able to stay alive during his exchange against Silva and Zeno, though the only damage he did was the poison knife against Silva who proved quite resilient to it. It showed that he was a strong nen user and had the experience and was able to fight against other top tier even against and unfair number advanatge. His nen ability is quite powerful and even though we've only seen a few of his abilities, he is still a force to be reckon with. The most powerful seen ability being the indoor fish. He prove himself to be very smart, in battle against Silva and Zeno and also overall during York ark with his understanding of a situation and making the best decision.

The third spot goes to creepiest and cooless character, Hisoka. His battle in the Celestial ark definitely prove that he is a genius when it comes to battle and making great use of his ability. He showed skill like Zeno by understanding his opponent ability and making the best decision to achieve him victory though he tend to toy and have fun unlike Zeno. Skill like Hisoka comes from experiences and in battle, so he isn't lacking in that area. His strength is third in Ryoddan so he's a beast physically and we've seen him kicking the stadium block probably a good 40 meter into the audience.

Next is Silva. He off course was keeping up in the Kuroro exchange and from his comment about Kuroro they might have faced off before. His physical strength should be pretty high either close to or more than Zeno. His emission blast did cause pretty good damage. He showed resistant to poison that would effect a whale and he recently took out one of the fastest characters we've seen. Can't remember the ant name for shit but it did show that he can react and dodge incoming attacks that are not in his vision like during his quick fight with Morau and Knuckles so Silva destroying him like he did must of been something he couldn't react to as Zeno mention.

This spot i'm not so sure off and i know there's some feats from characters that i'm forgetting. I guess i'll be going with Feitan. His physical strength is fifth in the Ryoddan. His skill was shown during the ant ark and though he was showing impressive speed the other member mention his sloppy movement and as did he when he mention he was little out of shape. He and Phinks seem to be the type that speaks with their strength as shown by how did always go to violence or torture when in most situations we've seen them. In battle he shown himself to be a great nen users and that his Hatsu is quite devastating that the other members knew death would await them if they were too close.

The fifth spot i do feel like it can be replace by characters like Ubo, Reiza and maybe Morau. I did not include the ants into my tier.

Mattaru

10-14-2008, 04:35 PM

Ahhh. I think I overlooked Feitan. He could certainly qualify, especially if Rising Sun was only one of his Pain Packer abilities.
I'm certainly looking forward to more Feitan.

We've completely COMPLETELY overlooked:

Morau

This guy's a beast, he's fucking soloing a royal guard [albeit, a lame one] on his own. His hatsu is absolutely versatile, and he's got awesome techniques.

:wtf Even though he claims to be weaker than Netero, that doesn't dethrone him from the top 5 position.

Freija

10-14-2008, 04:59 PM

Hey, Halfhearted :argh you forgot Feitan in that list :cry

Jon Snow

10-14-2008, 05:27 PM

Since Meruem is Pokkuru reborn, I voted for him, Pokkuru and Danchou

epic three-way tie.

uchiha-alia

10-14-2008, 05:39 PM

:lmao i voted for everyone BUT pokkuru :lmao, even if I really think the top 5 nen users are:
Hisoka, Danchou, Meruem, Netero and Zeno (closely follpwed by a whole host of people. SEE MY ABOVE WALL OF TEXT.

halfhearted

10-14-2008, 05:46 PM

KLoWn

10-14-2008, 06:04 PM

Hisoka
Feitan
Netero
Zeno
Danchou

^Probably these.

NeBy

10-14-2008, 06:04 PM

Added an additional ten options to the poll, as requested by the OP (Kurapica, Ging, Razor, Ubogin, Feitan, Morau, Novu, Millumi, Gyro, other (please mention in your post)).

If anyone wants me to manually change their vote, then they can just mention it in the thread. And, I'll edit the poll for them. Although, if you do this, make sure to have it out in the open. This is so people don't have to worry about too much modfucking behind the scenes making the results inaccurate.

That's so sweet, halfhearted! :love If you look like Pitou, I'd kiss you!

Btw, from what anime is your sigpic from? Looks cool, though I don't recognise it. (And I would say I've seen quite a lot of anime, though).

uchiha-alia

10-14-2008, 06:05 PM

can you even TAKE OFF votes halfhearted :iria? if so, keep my 5 as 'Hisoka, Danchou, Meruem, Netero and Zeno, if not, put Hisoka up to 1,000,000 :zaru

hgfdsahjkl

10-14-2008, 06:27 PM

That's so sweet, halfhearted! :love If you look like Pitou, I'd kiss you!

Btw, from what anime is your sigpic from? Looks cool, though I don't recognise it. (And I would say I've seen quite a lot of anime, though).

soul eater

NeBy

10-14-2008, 06:50 PM

soul eater

LOL. Wasn't that which we were up against for having a vote for this subforum?

I watched the first 3 episodes, and thought it much less than hxh. Maybe I should give it another chance... After all, it's possible not to be overwhelmed by the first 3 episodes of hxh either.

That's sometimes the difficulty with anime: how long does one have to watch to be certain it's worthless (and it stays worthless)?

hgfdsahjkl

10-14-2008, 07:05 PM

yeah you should watch soul eater it is really awesome
first 3 episodes were only introduction

Hisoka

10-14-2008, 07:15 PM

Meruem Netero, Yupi, Pituo, Zeno

yeah i didnt vote for Hisoka, since I have already said he isnt in top 10

nice poll NeBy =)

hgfdsahjkl

10-14-2008, 07:21 PM

:yell
3 voted hisoka and the poll says only 2 :yell

NeBy

10-14-2008, 07:37 PM

Meruem Netero, Yupi, Pituo, Zeno

yeah i didnt vote for Hisoka, since I have already said he isnt in top 10

nice poll NeBy =)

Thanks! It first seemed to all go wrong (waited too long for my poll, and thus the time-period to use one was over), but thnks to halfhearted, it all went as it should, in the end.

:yell
3 voted hisoka and the poll says only 2 :yell

Halfheart explained it, I think: the first people that voted on the (former) reduced poll had/have the chance to change their votes, if they ask halfheart. That's because on the original poll, there were only ten choices, so it restricted the possible answers an awful lot.

Danchou

10-14-2008, 07:42 PM

Based on the sheer brokenness and power of their abilities as they have displayed so far, at the moment I feel like saying:

Netero
Zeno
Kuroro
Feitan
Kurapica

Jetstorm

10-14-2008, 10:41 PM

Ging
Netero
Kuroro
Hisoka
Mereum

blazingshadow

10-15-2008, 02:49 AM

ging
netero
kuroro
meruem
biscuit at full power. she is almost as old as zeno and probably has more than 1 ability (cookie) in her arsenal

Graham Aker

10-15-2008, 03:30 AM

Quite surprised Ging only has 2 votes when he's been canonically confirmed as one of the top 5.

Anyway, voted for:

Zeno
Netero
Kuroro
Silva
Ging

Shame Biscuit's not there, I'd have voted for her in place of Silva, which was actually a wrong vote as I intended to click on Hisoka. :apathy

Freija

10-15-2008, 08:55 AM

Power16

10-15-2008, 12:18 PM

NeBy

10-15-2008, 01:45 PM

ging
netero
kuroro
meruem
biscuit at full power. she is almost as old as zeno and probably has more than 1 ability (cookie) in her arsenal

I doubt she is top-5 though. But I guess she could be the same level as Novu and certainly above Pokkuru. :P

Quite surprised Ging only has 2 votes when he's been canonically confirmed as one of the top 5.

Anyway, voted for:

Zeno
Netero
Kuroro
Silva
Ging

Shame Biscuit's not there, I'd have voted for her in place of Silva, which was actually a wrong vote as I intended to click on Hisoka. :apathy

True, but it must be said he was confirmed to belong to the top 5 in the GI arc. That was way before the ant-arc, which gave as the 3 royal guards and the king. It's quite possible that caused his 'rank' to go below the top-5, unless he was truly with the first 2 or something. Or one doesn't think the king or any of the RG belong to the top 5.

In any case, with the ants counted in, it's not really a surprise many people feel Ging doesn't belong to the top 5 anymore, even if it was once confirmed to be the case.

NeBy

10-15-2008, 01:50 PM

I thought the whole point of this thread was to name the top 5 nen users by their current feats?

People like Ging who showed nothing shouldn't be included and Netero only attack so far did no damage and it look like it was his intention to send the ant flying even though Morau and Zeno mention him being their better he doesn't have the feats.

If we're going by what the manga says we might as well say Ging and the other top 4 unknown nen user of the world.

It's true that was the original condition, but mainly because of a lack of choice, since the poll could only handle 10 choices, at first. Since now there are 20, there is no need anymore for those. (Though I personally agree with you; it doesn't make much sense to vote for someone we never saw in action). That said, as some have pointed out, Ging has been confirmed (up until the GI arc, at least) to belong to the top 5, so I guess it does lend some basis to their vote.

I did still set the condition that it should be someone we know of in hxh. So, a completely unknown very very powerful nen-user...doesn't cut it. :)

Danchou

10-15-2008, 02:26 PM

blazingshadow

10-15-2008, 03:19 PM

the only chimera ant worth being in the top 5 is meruem. the royal guards are not strong enough to guarantee themselves a spot there. their lack of knowledge of nen is a huge weakness even if they have strategic minds. the best proof of this is yupi and to a lesser extent ubo.

yupi will lose his life soon if he doesn't do something fast and ubo died at the hands of someone much weaker than him because they were more concentrated in fighting head on with little regard to their opponent's potential abilities.

pitou and pufu might be more cautious but i don't see them beating ppl like netero or ging in an all out battle.

NeBy

10-15-2008, 07:20 PM

Who is that Gyro character? And what is he doing in the poll.

I like how nobody even remotely thinks of including Gon and Killua. Even without them there just from the top of my head there are just so many other people who are more deserving of the spot.

That Pokkuro is included, is a disgrace though. :hmpf

It was just included to show you-know-who that Pokkuru isn't worth shit.

Ok, I'll be objective: there is a slight possibility he might have been mid-tier, but that's it.

:huh You don't remember Gyro?!

Danchou

10-15-2008, 07:24 PM

No, I have no idea who it is. One of the Zoaldyeck butlers?

And Pokkuro wasn't even midtier.

NeBy

10-15-2008, 07:41 PM

No, I have no idea who it is. One of the Zoaldyeck butlers?

And Pokkuro wasn't even midtier.

No, it's the 'official translated' name for Jairo. Personally, I think we don't know enough (hardly anything, really) to count him top tier, but I've seen people argue he was just that in our normal thread before, so I thought to include him.

As for Pokkuru...well, I said *possibly*. Killua (poster) might be full of fanfapping, but though exagerated, not everything he said is without a grain of truth. Pokkuru DID successfully kill ants, and to be fair, it looked like he would have managed the spider-ant too. The same spider-ant who was beaten, but still gave some good footwork (or legwork) to that GR-woman. Even when considering she's probably one of the weakest of the GR, there are no REAL weak nen-users in the GR. IMHO, they are all mid-tier or above. (If they were low-tier, they would've been exterminated a long time ago.) Ultimately, Pokku was defeated because of zazan (while he was fighting spiderant, so it was 2 (or more) against 1). Now, zazan was not weak neither, she put up a good fight against Feitan, until he released his painpacker.

In fact, those two things would put Pokku definitely in the mid-tier section if not for one thing, namely that at the time he fought them, they still didn't know about nen - which makes a big difference.

So he gets a 'maybe' for mid-tier (at most). Ofcourse, him being top-tier, let alone top 5, is ludicrous. Which this poll will substantiate. smile-big

Danchou

10-15-2008, 08:03 PM

No, it's the 'official translated' name for Jairo. Personally, I think we don't know enough (hardly anything, really) to count him top tier, but I've seen people argue he was just that in our normal thread before, so I thought to include him.

As for Pokkuru...well, I said *possibly*. Killua (poster) might be full of fanfapping, but though exagerated, not everything he said is without a grain of truth. Pokkuru DID successfully kill ants, and to be fair, it looked like he would have managed the spider-ant too. The same spider-ant who was beaten, but still gave some good footwork (or legwork) to that GR-woman. Even when considering she's probably one of the weakest of the GR, there are no REAL weak nen-users in the GR. IMHO, they are all mid-tier or above. (If they were low-tier, they would've been exterminated a long time ago.) Ultimately, Pokku was defeated because of zazan (while he was fighting spiderant, so it was 2 (or more) against 1). Now, zazan was not weak neither, she put up a good fight against Feitan, until he released his painpacker.

In fact, those two things would put Pokku definitely in the mid-tier section if not for one thing, namely that at the time he fought them, they still didn't know about nen - which makes a big difference.

So he gets a 'maybe' for mid-tier (at most). Ofcourse, him being top-tier, let alone top 5, is ludicrous. Which this poll will substantiate. smile-bigI prefer to stick to the standard names. Altough Viz' names might be more accurate at times even though that's questionable, they just come off as wrong in general.

As for Pokkuro. It makes a very big difference whether the ant knew nen or not. They become exponentionally stronger once they do. They're completely different in power.

And then you have the fact that one hit of Killua's Narukami and Gon's Jajanken after they had beaten Greed Island wasn't enough to kill off Ramotto (who Killua dominated and killed him a while afterwards). So, additionally I doubt that Pokkuro could have handled Pike even if the arrow hit him as he's nowhere near their level at that point.

Aokiji

10-15-2008, 08:07 PM

Okok, in b4 Ging:
GET THIS IN YOUR HEADS :argh
Ging is NOT going to be the top nen user in the world, and if he is, Togashi is going to fall into the trash can for me. It's SO freaking clichéd to have the mystery character be uber-powerful. I'd rather have him have some very special unique hatsu, but Ging being uber-strong is all fandom hype from people who have suffered too much from other clichéd shounens.
Ging is NOT going to tbe top nen user, or anything even approaching top 3. He was given a small bit of hype, but I really hope Togashi doesn't take it further.

Raizen. :LOS

Graham Aker

10-15-2008, 09:13 PM

In any case, with the ants counted in, it's not really a surprise many people feel Ging doesn't belong to the top 5 anymore, even if it was once confirmed to be the case.
Might as well not include Kururo, the Zoldicks and Hisoka. Fail poll just failed.

tl;dr

NeBy

10-16-2008, 02:49 AM

Might as well not include Kururo, the Zoldicks and Hisoka.

Why? The whole point of the argument was, that at least some of the ants *could* be considered top 5. One can be of the opinion they don't, however. So the most logical thing to do is leave the choice open, and that means those ants, as well as the top-tier humans should be part of the choice.

Fail poll just failed.

tl;dr

Oh noes! :cry

But wait! A fail that fails...isn't that something good? So, ultimately, it turns out to be allright!! :P

Jon Snow

10-16-2008, 09:15 AM

But wait! A fail that fails...isn't that something good? So, ultimately, it turns out to be allright!! :P

Failing to fail is like passing out while trying to kill yourself.

I hope that clarifies things.

NeBy

10-16-2008, 01:56 PM

Failing to fail is like passing out while trying to kill yourself.

I hope that clarifies things.

Certainly! So, when viewed in the context of staying alive, it's a considerable success! :laugh

Jon Snow

10-16-2008, 02:32 PM

Not when the initial objective was to make yourself dead. ;)

NeBy

10-16-2008, 03:36 PM

Not when the initial objective was to make yourself dead. ;)

:huh

Doesn't seem to make much sense.

If the initial objective was to make yourself dead, the failed objective would be to have remained alive after trying to kill yourself; that would constitute a 'fail death'...but if you failed the 'fail death', you would, indeed, be dead...

Jon Snow

10-16-2008, 05:23 PM

this shit is too smart for me :argh

Failing at failing is like passing out while trying to kill yourself

I'll stick with that :pek

metal_uzumaki

10-17-2008, 04:05 AM

I love Kilua's new nen ability, once he can use that more consistently he's gonna pwn everyone

Kira U. Masaki

10-17-2008, 05:04 AM

i have the old guy, jing, ant king, lucifier, hisoka

chikkychappy

10-17-2008, 05:45 AM

Jon Snow

10-17-2008, 05:47 AM

Whose dupe are you? :pek

chikkychappy

10-17-2008, 06:39 AM

:laugh

This is a truly new account; I've just been lurking the past few days. This is the username I use nearly everywhere, like digg, flickr, imeem, youtube, and even nexgear. If you don't believe me, just search google.

LivingHitokiri

10-17-2008, 06:43 AM

Pitou Kuroro Hisoka Feitan Kurapica

NeBy

10-17-2008, 06:22 PM

I have always thought that Silva>Zeno, minus battle experience. So including that they would be more or less equal, but many seem to be of the opinion that Zeno kicks Silva's ass. :oh

Anyway, top 5 for me, in order:
Ging
Mereum
Netero
Pitou
Kuroro :ohpek

Others:
Silva
Hisoka
Zeno
Yupi
Morau
Pufu

Btw, this Pokkuru shit is funny. Reborn as Mereum? :rotfl

In all honesty, I sometimes wonder at voters' sense of logic and rationale....

For starters: ging can only be considered top 5, if he was, like... first or second. It would be quite unbelievable if the RG, or at least the king didn't shift the balance of power a bit. If Ging was 5th in the GI arc, it's illogical to place him still in the top 5 when Mereum arrived. Otherwise, that would mean Mereum is considered a rather mid-tier nen-user....which go against everything we know of him.

So...do people really think ging was 1st or 2nd in the top 5?

Pitou Kuroro Hisoka Feitan Kurapica

Tifa...though I adore Pitou too...somehow, this doesn't make sense. Pitou, for all her strengths, isn't stronger then the king (canon), so she can't be really at the top of the list.

blazingshadow

10-18-2008, 01:24 AM

meruem is top tier but he is not the strongest of all nen users unless his ability also gives him the hatsu of anybody he eats

chikkychappy

10-18-2008, 02:53 AM

In all honesty, I sometimes wonder at voters' sense of logic and reationale....

For starters: ging can only be considered top 5, if he was, like... first or second. It would be quite unbelievable if the RG, or at least the king didn't shift the balance of power a bit. If Ging was 5th in the GI arc, it's illogical to place him still in the top 5 when Mereum arrived. Otherwise, that would mean Mereum is consideed a rather mid-tier nen-user....which go against everything we know of him.

So...do people really think ging was 1st or 2nd in the top 5?

I think I get what you mean. Anyway, my post was not claiming any absolute ranking, only that from the characters we've known so far, that is how I'm going to rank them. So whether Ging is, considering all human nen users, the first or second or third, I have no idea. I am leaning towards third or fourth actually, but who knows. But among all introduced characters (including the King, but this is still debatable), I would rank him first.

NeBy

10-18-2008, 03:54 PM

meruem is top tier but he is not the strongest of all nen users unless his ability also gives him the hatsu of anybody he eats

I don't know...seems a bit strange NOT to include him, though. He kicks the ass of the RG's, who are formidable on themselves. Pitou had no trouble defeating Kaito - a pretty high nen-user himself, she can create En two miles away (Zeno only 300m), Yupi has such an amount of nen even experienced Knuckle never saw the likes....even Morau - a top-tier user himself - has not the tenth of that amount. Those are all facts (canon).

I know; one still has experience etc., and that's why our main characters lasted so long as they did, but still... One can reasonably assume the king is close to the top - the only thing keeping him a bit at bay is his low amount of experience fighting nen-users. But at the rate he's learning, that will be over soon.

And if he eats Netero, all will be finished. I don't see how anyone could defeat him, then. I hope Togashi doesn't go that way. :oh

blazingshadow

10-18-2008, 04:39 PM

all they need to beat the ants is an ability with similar restrictions as kurapica's chain jail, an aura level similar to morau's and a surprise attack. just imagine somebody with those requirements and a manipulation hatsu fighting royal guards 1 by 1. once they are controlled by the nen user they can gang up on meruem and create an opening for the nen user to control him.

another way is to make the ultimate ant burning magnifying glass. all in all i believe the best nen user is either a manipulation or materialization user

after all human's best ability is being intelligent rather than being strong

edit: i just noticed that ging is canonically one of the top 5 before the chimera arc yet he is way behind in the poll

Eldritch

10-18-2008, 08:33 PM

Well Ging did wtfpwn Razor.

blueblip

10-20-2008, 07:22 AM

Just wondering, how much of a beast do you think Reiza is? I remember him not giving a fuck when the Genei Ryodan showed up on GI (five of them I think) while Finks seemed pretty worked up? Is he high tier Ryodan, and compareable to a RG?

chikkychappy

10-20-2008, 08:31 AM

^I am guessing high-tier Ryodan. Slightly stronger than Phinx and maybe Feitan's equal. Not RG, definitely. Only Ging, Netero, Silva, Zeno and Kuroro can measure up to them.

Mattaru

10-20-2008, 10:39 AM

Phinx is meant to be physically stronger than Feitan.
Although Feitan's haxx0rz hatsu will put him under pressure. Ripper Cyclone isn't much... It's like Gons Jajanken but much more powerful.

I think Reiza is at least on par with the strongest of the Ryodan, physically, and in nen combat.

blazingshadow

10-20-2008, 02:25 PM

razor should be able to win a fight 1 on 1 with all the members of the ryodan except kuroro. for me he is way stronger than hisoka who had trouble catching a powered down nen ball.

Taleran

10-20-2008, 09:18 PM

Hasn't the manga already stated this itself as I remember someone saying that Ging was one of the top 5 nen users in the world

and I seriously doubt anyone on the Ryodan is even near his level, the only character currently in the manga I'd stick on the same level would be Netero, Merum

and

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3325/mahaqm1.jpg

Zeno himself stated that hes nowhere near Netero's level

ansoncarter

10-21-2008, 01:09 AM

not a top nen user but the guy from greed island had an amazing hatsu. The guy with the gorillas who could switch places with one, and switch his enemy with the other

thats pretty broken. You could send the one ape off a cliff and switch him with your enemy

Taleran

10-21-2008, 02:23 AM

okay and then what

http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000078/00000012/11.jpg

hgfdsahjkl

10-21-2008, 06:49 AM

chikkychappy

10-23-2008, 07:18 AM

But Maha is very very old. I think Illumi is stronger than him, so he's nowhere near the top 5.

hgfdsahjkl

10-23-2008, 08:01 AM

netero was able to stay strong
so why not someone who was on his level or may be more cant ?

Fenix

10-23-2008, 08:42 AM

What?! No Phinx !?!?

Oh and I'm not counting the ants, they're all terrible characters -_-

bSupernova

10-23-2008, 08:47 AM

One of the things I love about HxH is the fact that it's not quite so easy to just rank power levels.

But for now I just have to go with Lucilfer being top. Meruem/The King has potential but he hasn't had the time to develop his abilities/steal like Lucilfer has, and I highly doubt he would be able to defeat Lucilfer with sheer chimera ant strength alone.

Oh and I'm not counting the ants, they're all terrible characters -_-

How so?

hgfdsahjkl

10-23-2008, 09:50 AM

well everyone has his opinion
but i find the king and his RG to be fantastic characters that it will be a waste to kill them

chikkychappy

10-23-2008, 12:53 PM

netero was able to stay strong
so why not someone who was on his level or may be more cant ?

In his prime he's definitely one of the top, in the same way that Netero was the top. But Netero, while still really strong, has declined, and I think so has Maha. And I don't think Maha is as strong as Netero, so he shouldn't be placed in the same league. Zeno, Silva and I suppose even Illumi is stronger. So he's definitely not in the top 5, but nevertheless still really strong.

(Well actually I am not really sure. :laugh I just do not like really old characters to still be godly strong after all these decades. 60y.o., on average, should be the peak.)

As for the king and RG, I don't like them either. In fact I don't like the ant arc as a whole. :noworry I can't sympathize with those creatures and they overturned the power level hierarchy that was etched in my mind prior to the arc. I think all the ants of value should be eliminated as they would just disturb succeeding arcs. :amuse

Danchou

10-23-2008, 02:33 PM

Kuroro is first and Kurapica is top 5, hm!?

This poll is made of win and truth.

NeBy

10-23-2008, 02:42 PM

Kuroro is first and Kurapica is top 5, hm!?

This poll is made of win and truth.

True! smile-big

Though...ermm...actually Kurapica isn't in the top 5 according to the poll...

Taleran

10-23-2008, 06:53 PM

Neither of them should be in the top 5

NeBy

10-23-2008, 07:15 PM

Neither of them should be in the top 5

Well, I'm not totally sure about that. Kurapica has a strong hatsu - on the other hand, he's top-tier specifically against the GR...I'm not so sure about when he's fighting others. I mean, he's good, no doubt...but probably not in the top 5, true.

As for Kuroro...that would depend on what other abilities he has stolen, frankly.

All in all, I do agree it's not very likely they would be top 5, when there are people like Zeno, Silva, Mereum and Netero around.

I find it a bit surprising Kururo is so high upin the poll, really. If not for a telephone call by Illumi, he would be dead and buried by now, killed by Zeno and Silva. I can't really imagine him being stronger than Nereto or Mereum. Yet, those are not at the first spot...especially Mereum seems to be less favoured. If this would have some rationale, it would mean Mereum hasn't got a chance (or at least little chance) against Netero.

I, however, think it's just the opposite; Netero's chances of winning are slim (less than 30%). Logic would indicate Mereum should have a higher score...unless I'm totally mistaken, and the king doesn't have a chance against the old geezer, indeed.

Well, we'll see, I suppose.

bSupernova

10-23-2008, 08:09 PM

What makes you pick Zeno/Silva over Lucilfer?

Fenix

10-23-2008, 09:12 PM

If not for a telephone call by Illumi, he would be dead and buried by now, killed by Zeno and Silva.

Fighting two people at once while STILL dicking around trying to steal their abilities? Kuroro > Zeno/Silva, combined or not

Danchou

10-23-2008, 09:20 PM

^
So many words at that. It's a shame you are repsealed. :wink

Kuroro has bar none the most broken ability of anyone in HxH. Kurapica's 100% efficiency in all nencategories is also unparalled by anyone in HxH. And do we really need to bring up the whole Zeno (+Silva) vs. Kuroro.

Taleran

10-23-2008, 11:13 PM

Kuroro's is very very conditional as is Kurapica's he also hasn't shown that his eyes can go red against non spiders, in combat, and when none of the 11 people you have vendetta against is on the top 5 no way your focused techniques will be either

never seen Silva go all out either it wasn't really a 2 on 1 it was more a 1 on 1 with a third person watching ready to strike

Zeno controlled that entire fight, everything Kuroro pulled out he had a counter for

I'd put Ging above everyone we have seen in the manga
I'd also put Netero above everyone else we've seen (Not including the King, waiting for their fight)
the next 3 spots probably belong to people who know Ging who we haven't yet been introduced to
and one of them could be Maha just because hes still walking around however obscenely old he is

hgfdsahjkl

10-23-2008, 11:14 PM

Fighting two people at once while STILL dicking around trying to steal their abilities? Kuroro > Zeno/Silva, combined or not

yeah but he was going to die not like that he was winning or something

blazingshadow

10-24-2008, 02:25 AM

yeah but he was going to die not like that he was winning or somethinghe wasn't fighting seriously by playing with his latest stolen hatsu and zeno admitted to him being weaker than a serious lucifer. if he had used his teleportation hatsu to one of his opponents when he had the chance he would have won either way

Taleran

10-24-2008, 02:31 AM

He never said anything like that he said it'd be more interesting if Kuroro was serious not he'd loose

blazingshadow

10-24-2008, 02:37 AM

to me that was him trash talking his way out of blatantly admiting he doesn't know what he would do to save his own skin if lucifer fought for real. FYI zeno almost died in that fight as well

Taleran

10-24-2008, 03:08 AM

Close to dying?

what are you talking about

bSupernova

10-24-2008, 03:20 AM

Danchou

10-24-2008, 04:47 AM

Close to dying?

what are you talking abouthttp://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20100/compressed/12951_273052.jpg

Lucilfer was not fighting seriously, far from doing so actually, he was merely messing around in a number of different ways. 1) As already stated, using a recently aquired ability he had no grasp of, 2) trying to steal Zeno's/Silva's abilities in such a intense situation. It seemed to me that Zeno/Silva on the other hand, were not messing around and Lucilfer was able to hold his own against both of them. To put him any lower than Zeno/Silva is nonsensical.I agree.

Kuroro would have been warned by Neon's prophecy if his life would be in threat. The fact that the prophecy didn't say a word about the encounter with the Zoaldyecks means that his life was never threatened.

Power16

10-24-2008, 02:31 PM

Lucifer may not have been serious but in no time during the exchange did he have the upper hand if anything all the fight showed was that he is able to keep track of everything around him in a fight hence why he could handle Silva being there while fighting Zeno. Zeno just showing up now in the ant arc with huge dragon showed he can up his game majorly and hype Netero/Maha (fighting Netero at prime when he was #1 in the world i believe) with his comment about Netero always making him cry.

If you take everything seen and said in the manga i can see that Ryoddan and Hisoka not being in top 5 or maybe even 10. We already have Ging and the other top 4 nen users and i would put Netero, Maha and Meruem next. Then there's still Zeno's father who nothing has been show about yet but we can probably assume him stronger than Zeno. I would still put the likes of Zeno ahead of Kuroro. So i can definitely see Ryoddan and people around their level not being in top 10 anyway I've already said my part using only show feats and without including the Ants.

NeBy

10-24-2008, 03:29 PM

Lucilfer was not fighting seriously, far from doing so actually, he was merely messing around in a number of different ways. 1) As already stated, using a recently aquired ability he had no grasp of, 2) trying to steal Zeno's/Silva's abilities in such a intense situation. It seemed to me that Zeno/Silva on the other hand, were not messing around and Lucilfer was able to hold his own against both of them. To put him any lower than Zeno/Silva is nonsensical.

1)It had little to do with 'playing' with a new ability, but everything with the fact he deemed this ability the most usefull to catch Zeno, and then retrieve/steal his ability. Also, he was trying to stall - as correctly deduced by Zeno - knowing that he hired the rest of the family to kill the Godfathers, thereby nullifying the contract of Zeno and Silva. To stall two top-tier nen-assassins, does not mean he was just playing around, however.

2)Let's face it: he quickly realised he *couldn't* steal Zeno's ability. The exact point where one can see this, is when he closes his book. He gives up hope of being able to steal anything, at that point. One can reasonably assume he's totally serious from that point on, and not trying to steal anything anymore.

[/img]http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20100/compressed/12951_273052.jpg[/img]

I agree.

Kuroro would have been warned by Neon's prophecy if his life would be in threat. The fact that the prophecy didn't say a word about the encounter with the Zoaldyecks means that his life was never threatened.

I can't totally agree with all this.

Ermmm...'that' is not due to Kuroro, but the aftermath of the attack of Silva. I don't see how an attack so powerful it almost took out two top-tier nen-fighters is an argument to say Kuroro had the upper-hand, on the contrary.

Your end-conclusion is true, but you seem to make the wrong deduction out of it. He knew 'his position' wouldn't be challenged, so he knew he wasn't going to die, right. But in fact, that knowledge gave him an in-front advantage; he knew he didn't have to fear for his life - which could be different next time (or without that knowledge). It doesn't, however, have any bearings on his strength. Even if he was a complete weakling (which he isn't, of course), after reading that prophesy, he could still confront the Zaoldyecks. The only thing that might have happened is that Illumi phones sooner, for instance. ANYONE, even an idiot non-nen user could face the Zoaldyecks, when the prophesy said he didn't risk anything...I hope you can see that point.

Thus, it doesn't say anything about his nen-strength or the level of his abilities; on the contrary, even a complete weakling would dare to face the Zaoldeycks if he knew he didn't risk anything (thanks to the prophesy). It could be claimed, therefore, that his bravery/courage/playing around is the result of that knowledge, NOT (necessarily) because of confidence of his own prowess.

blazingshadow

10-24-2008, 03:42 PM

Ermmm...'that' is not due to Kuroro, but the aftermath of the attack of Silva. I don't see how an attack so powerful it almost took out two top-tier nen-fighters is an argument to say Kuroro had the upper-handit does say something about lucifer who has to be taken out by such an attack while being held by zeno even at the cost of his life. zeno didn't even think about his huge dragon attack which probably is impractical in such a fight in some way or another (maybe it needs a long charge time?) and left the finishing blow to his son while he attacked from close range.

NeBy

10-24-2008, 03:51 PM

it does say something about lucifer who has to be taken out by such an attack while being held by zeno even at the cost of his life. zeno didn't even think about his huge dragon attack which probably is impractical in such a fight in some way or another (maybe it needs a long charge time?) and left the finishing blow to his son while he attacked from close range.

That's why I agree Kuroro is top-tier too. You're right in deducing they wouldn't have gone for that attack, if they felt there was a much easier way to kill him.

But in the end, he WAS loosing, and he *would* have been killed, if not for Illumi's telephone call.

bSupernova

10-24-2008, 05:44 PM

1)It had little to do with 'playing' with a new ability, but everything with the fact he deemed this ability the most usefull to catch Zeno, and then retrieve/steal his ability. Also, he was trying to stall - as correctly deduced by Zeno - knowing that he hired the rest of the family to kill the Godfathers, thereby nullifying the contract of Zeno and Silva. To stall two top-tier nen-assassins, does not mean he was just playing around, however. I doubt he would have "deemed" an ability he had gotten a mere hours before, "the best" to catch these two really tough looking nen users. He saw an opportunity to try out a new ability and steal some at the same time.

2)Let's face it: he quickly realised he *couldn't* steal Zeno's ability. The exact point where one can see this, is when he closes his book. He gives up hope of being able to steal anything, at that point. One can reasonably assume he's totally serious from that point on, and not trying to steal anything anymore.

I wouldn't say he was totally serious at that point, he could have simply been analyzing them, him dodging attacks all over the place just doesn't scream totally serious to me. Though it could be possible that he was forced to dodge everything, but it still doesn't sound right that Kuroro Lucilfer wouldn't have a single chance of striking back.

I do not think Kuroro Lucilfer was fighting seriously at any one point. He did underestimate both of them, but I see no reason to think he was going all out.

Now Zeno, he actually caught Lucilfer, had him right there with his hands, yet he opt for Silva's assistance in finishing him off , an assitance that could have ended up killing both of them, just to take him down. That's something to think about.

NeBy

10-24-2008, 07:05 PM

I doubt he would have "deemed" an ability he had gotten a mere hours before, "the best" to catch these two really tough looking nen users. He saw an opportunity to try out a new ability and steal some at the same time.

I wouldn't say he was totally serious at that point, he could have simply been analyzing them, him dodging attacks all over the place just doesn't scream totally serious to me. Though it could be possible that he was forced to dodge everything, but it still doesn't sound right that Kuroro Lucilfer wouldn't have a single chance of striking back.

I do not think Kuroro Lucilfer was fighting seriously at any one point. He did underestimate both of them, but I see no reason to think he was going all out.

Now Zeno, he actually caught Lucilfer, had him right there with his hands, yet he opt for Silva's assistance in finishing him off , an assitance that could have ended up killing both of them, just to take him down. That's something to think about.

Let's agree to disagree. :amuse

According to me, he used fun fun cloth for two reasons only: to catch Zeno/steal his ability and to stall for time. All his other stolen techniques we've seen him use wouldn't accomplish that as efficiently, and while one might presume far more deadlier abilities, those would be...well...deadlier, and thus less suited to capture Zeno alive. That he only received it a few hours before should not pose a problem, if I correctly interpreted his hatsu, and it gives him the complete ability and mastery of any hatsu stolen.

I would agree he was focused on stealing Zeno's abilities at the start, not serious fighting, but that focus clearly stopped after he closed his book. To then say 'maybe he just wanted to play or analyse'...well, meh. Maybe he just wanted to create a new dance too. I mean, everything is possible, but how likely is it? You don't confront two top-tier assassins just to goof around and look at their moves.

Well, ok, he might, if he completely trusted the prophesy.

But even then, as said before, he didn't do it out of certainty of his prowess, but out of conviction the prophesy was right.

I mean *no-one* (except idiots, and Kuroro isn't that) under normal circumstances will fight the two best nen-assassins in the world just to see them busy. He clearly had a plan with those two: try to steal their abilities, and try to stall them, so Illumi could kill the godfathers in time. Analysing and all that may be a fine bonus (just as for Zeno), but that's not the main reason for his actions.

But...okay...he DID put up a good fight against them, and he got comments from Zeno as well as Silva complimenting his prowess, and you have a point about the attack they used.

Including the comment at the end by Zeno, one could argue that Kuroro might be equal to Zeno or Silva, or at least, close to it. It would mainly depend on what other tricks (hatsus) he has in his book, though.

But I just can't agree with the "Kuroro > Zeno/Silva, combined or not" post in this thread. That's just extremely implausible. Good as he might be, as he is now, I think it's most likely he would loose any battle if he has to confront both at the same time. If not, it would be a haxor-uber-thingy, since it would mean one guy in his 20ies, can defeat the two most deadly top-tier nen-assassins (at the peak of their power and having huge fighting/killing experience during decades) we know of, on his own.

Togashi has stayed remarkably un-haxorish in hxh, so for that reason alone I already think such a thing is very unlikely.

bSupernova

10-24-2008, 07:33 PM

NeBy

10-24-2008, 07:44 PM

Let's just agree to disagree, we see things differently and I really don't feel like getting too much into this as we've seen so little out of these characters.

Now one thing that really has my attention is how Togashi plans on handling the whole Gon - Pitou thing. I doubt they'll even fight but it's still amusing to think about it.. but that's a whole nother thread right there :amuse

You're stealing my line, Kuroro-ish-kun! :pek

I would actually want to see more of Silva's abilities: we know extremely little about it/him. People seem to think (according to the poll) that Zeno is definitely much stronger/powerful than Silva....but I have a nagging feeling they're severely underestimating him. It wouldn't be bad if Togashi made a zoaldyeck-arc, spitting out the characters of the assassins-family a bit further, and come to a satisfying and surprising conclusion with the Killua-family issue...You know, the mixed love-hate feelings and relationship between Killua and his father/family. There still is a dark tension there...daddy clearly expects Killua to come back as heir to the family-business, while Killua himself at the same time loves and hates his family, and wants to get out/be free. Great basis for a neat story, right there.

Edit: as for Pitou and Gon; Togashi solved it the only way he could, to remain believable. Otherwise, Pitou would just rip Gon apart; it's the only logical outcome. I suspect things will be exactly as he described it: they will sit aside eachother, doing nothing else than looking in eachothers' eyes. :love

When snotgirl is sufficiently healed, only two things can happen: Pitou-bitch keeps her word and goes with Gon and doesn't look for the king (unlikely), or Pitou thinks, ok, now I can beat the snot out of *that* kid...at that point, it's very likely the only thing that's able to keep her in check is a continuing life-threat of the snotgirl...either by the snotgirl herself (threatening to kill herself if Nefkitty attacks Gon), or by Killua.

I don't see many other options left, if Pitou is able to confront Gon, after an hour.

bSupernova

10-24-2008, 07:56 PM

You're stealing my line, Kuroro-ish-kun! :pek

I would actually want to see more of Silva's abilities: we know extremely little about it/him. People seem to think (according to the poll) that Zeno is definitely much stronger/powerful than Silva....but I have a nagging feeling they're severely underestimating him. It wouldn't be bad if Togashi made a zoaldyeck-arc, spitting out the characters of the assassins-family a bit further, and come to a satisfying and surprising conclusion with the Killua-family issue...You know, the mixed love-hate feelings and relationship between Killua and his father/family. There still is a dark tension there...daddy clearly expects Killua to come back as heir to the family-business, while Killua himself at the same time loves and hates his family, and wants to get out/be free. Great basis for a neat story, right there.

That would certainly be great, but right now I just want him to finish this great arc on his terms. This arc has been brewing for a long time, I hope he keeps his focus so after this is all over with he can move onto fleshing out the zaoldyecks/ryodan/other high profile hunters. I think we've seen enough of Gon and Killua for now, they've grown tremendously(save height :P) and I don't think anyone would mind if they stepped down so other people can get some panel time too.

Yeah I think it was pretty obvious that Pitou and Gon wouldn't really fight, though Gon (again) has grown considiberaly during this arc, Pitou would impale him in a matter of seconds. Now I don't know what Komugi will do, but I think she'll play a role in this once she wakes up.

And I'd just like to say that the way Komugi and the King interacted was probably one of my favorite character interaction in all of the manga. Togashi is something else.

NeBy

10-24-2008, 08:22 PM

That would certainly be great, but right now I just want him to finish this great arc on his terms. This arc has been brewing for a long time, I hope he keeps his focus so after this is all over with he can move onto fleshing out the zaoldyecks/ryodan/other high profile hunters. I think we've seen enough of Gon and Killua for now, they've grown tremendously(save height :P) and I don't think anyone would mind if they stepped down so other people can get some panel time too.

Yeah I think it was pretty obvious that Pitou and Gon wouldn't really fight, though Gon (again) has grown considiberaly during this arc, Pitou would impale him in a matter of seconds. Now I don't know what Komugi will do, but I think she'll play a role in this once she wakes up.

And I'd just like to say that the way Komugi and the King interacted was probably one of my favorite character interaction in all of the manga. Togashi is something else.

True, true to that last part.

It's one of the prime examples where the subtle differences (and superiority) of hxh is shown. I mean, who ELSE BUT TOGAHSI could come up with such a scene between a ruthless nen-ant-king and a Snotgirl playing Gung-gi? In ANY other anime - especially the DBZ kind - those scenes where whole chapters are devoted to playing the game and the interaction between these two vastly different characters would be non-existent and impossible! Mereum has been linked to Cell, and physiucally, there is some truth behind that, but look at how different the characters/scenes are portrayed! In DBZ, the cell-character would just kill everyting it meets; a one-sided, flat 'evil' character. Not so with Togashi. No constant uber-fighting with the king; just a mental battle between him and a blind girl, where one actually sees how his personality is a bit changed, little by little (at least, towards the snotgirl).

Now, that's complex behaviour, depth of characters, etc. All what we said earlier. It makes hxh so much more than the typical beat'um up-shounen.

Danchou

10-24-2008, 08:24 PM

NeBy

10-24-2008, 08:59 PM

You are mistaken about Kuroro and the prophecy. The whole in-front advantage is baseless conjecture. He could have proceeded with that stint with the Zoaldyecks irregardless of whether he had his fortune told by Neon.

Remember, the prophecy just tells in advance which unfateful events are going to happen and excludes events which are not relevant, since the whole purpose of the prophecy is that you can avoid stipulated unfateful fortunes if you take the right precautions to prevent them from happening. So to use your example, if he was weaksauce fodder to begin i.e. someone who would undoubtebly die in a fight with the Zoaldyecks, the prophecy would not have omitted such a detail but au contraire warned the subject in question of his future (or rather the lack of it). The fact that the prophecy mentioned nothing about the 'deadly' forthcoming confrontation with the Zoaldyecks means that his life was never in danger from the start.

Thus, it was not due to the result of the prophecy that Kuroro could stalemate the Zoaldyecks simulateneously without the risk of dying. It's just that he was never fated to die while fighting them to begin with.

Ermm...I'm not following the point you are trying to make.

Yes, you can alter the prophesy if you know about it, and set about steps to alter it. This is canon.

The "The whole in-front advantage is baseless conjecture." is rather a logical assumption. He knew he didn't risk his life (because of Neon)...that is a fact. It is logical to assume, IF (as is said) the prophesy has 100% accuracy of happening until one actively tries to avoid it, and IF Kuroro has the certitude his life is not in danger (as is said too, even in the kurapica-car-scene), that he would have little fear to confront the assassins, since he already knew they wouldn't kill him that week.

"He could have proceeded with that stint with the Zoaldyecks irregardless of whether he had his fortune told by Neon. " Now, THAT is conjecture. Because...on what is it based on? Is it a fact, or even mentioned somewhere, he can win against two top-tier nen-fighters/assassins? Is there some logical reasoning, that we might deduce he would stand there with the same 'playing around' attitude, and use the same tactics, if he didn't know 'today' wasn't his day to die?

As said, no normal intelligent person would do that, unless his power is SO vastly superior, two top-tier assassins pose no threat whatsoever. But I find such uber-haxor-power very un-Togashi, in hxh.

"So to use your example, if he was weaksauce fodder to begin i.e. someone who would undoubtebly die in a fight with the Zoaldyecks, the prophecy would not have omitted such a detail but au contraire warned the subject in question of his future (or rather the lack of it)."

You're missing the point. You're saying: 'the prophesy would say that you would die if you (a weakling) would go up against the zoaldyeks.' Well, most likely it would - if fightingskills were the determining factor in the outcome of the fight. But that wasn't the case in Kuroro's case; the fight there didn't stop because he won, but because Illumi called, and the contractors of Zeno and Silva were dead, and thus there was no point for them to fight anymore (as said by Zeno).

So, my point is: say a weakling non-nen user gets THE SAME prophesy, that he isn't going to die that week, then logic indicates, he can confront those two assassins and NOT die anyway. Why? Well, who knows? Maybe Illumi would have called a bit sooner, or the coward weakling might have fled long enough, or he might just have been extremely lucky (like the dice-thing) to avoid all attacks by sheer chance.

The reason why doesn't really matter, however; one can still feel confident, once the prophesy says you are not going to die, that you're not going to die, whomever you confront. That logic is irrefutable, Reckoner.

So, ultimately, once you have that kind of prophesy, it doesn't matter what level of nen-mastery you have anymore. You don't NEED superior nen-abilities anymore to be confident to stay alive, because you already know you'll stay alive.

The same goes for Kuroro too: he didn't have to be sure he surpassed (and could beat) two top-tier nen-assassins to stay alive; he already knew he would stay alive. And indeed, as is shown, he's saved by the call of Illumi, and not because he bested Silva and Zeno.

Danchou

10-24-2008, 09:46 PM

Ermm...I'm not following the point you are trying to make.

Yes, you can alter the prophesy if you know about it, and set about steps to alter it. This is canon.I've written it in pretty understandable terms. I don't know how I can break it down more for you.

Lovely ghost writer allows people to set about steps to alter unfateful prophecy's and excludes events that are irrelevent. That is canon.

The "The whole in-front advantage is baseless conjecture." is rather a logical assumption. He knew he didn't risk his life (because of Neon)...that is a fact. It is logical to assume, IF (as is said) the prophesy has 100% accuracy of happening until one actively tries to avoid it, and IF Kuroro has the certitude his life is not in danger (as is said too, even in the kurapica-car-scene), that he would have little fear to confront the assassins, since he already knew they wouldn't kill him that week.It sounds logical to you, but it doesn't to me.

The fact that he was not fated to die in the Zoaldyeck fight was determined before he even met Neon. You act like he has somehow changed from that point on, that he has some sort of new found confidence to fight them because he knew he wouldn't die, while the prophecy has marginally or nothing to do with his fate, since it was not unfortunate to begin with. That is why I called it baseless conjecture.

"He could have proceeded with that stint with the Zoaldyecks irregardless of whether he had his fortune told by Neon. " Now, THAT is conjecture. Because...on what is it based on? Is it a fact, or even mentioned somewhere, he can win against two top-tier nen-fighters/assassins? Is there some logical reasoning, that we might deduce he would stand there with the same 'playing around' attitude, and use the same tactics, if he didn't know 'today' wasn't his day to die?

As said, no normal intelligent person would do that, unless his power is SO vastly superior, two top-tier assassins pose no threat whatsoever. But I find such uber-haxor-power very un-Togashi, in hxh.It's not conjecture because that was his future to begin with judged by the fact that the prophecy never mentioned it. Remember the prophecy only warns about unfateful future events, so that the actor can change his actions based on that.

This is the fundamental difference in between our standpoint. However unfair it might seem that Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim and live to tell the story, it just happens to be the case.

You're missing the point. You're saying: 'the prophesy would say that you would die if you (a weakling) would go up against the zoaldyeks.' Well, most likely it would - if fightingskills were the determining factor in the outcome of the fight. But that wasn't the case in Kuroro's case; the fight there didn't stop because he won, but because Illumi called, and the contractors of Zeno and Silva were dead, and thus there was no point for them to fight anymore (as said by Zeno).Fightingskills were the determining factor in the outcome of the fight. If he were actually weaksauce that fight would have ended within a second. The only reason why the prophecy didn't warn him of the fight was because he was powerful enough to survive the assassination attempt to begin with and thus his life was also never in any danger. Obviously that isn't the same with weaksauce. If Neon read the prophecy of some weaksauce in Kuroro's stead, it would undoubtebly have warned the weaksauce of his impending doom.

So, my point is: say a weakling non-nen user gets THE SAME prophesy, that he isn't going to die that week, then logic indicates, he can confront those two assassins and NOT die anyway. Why? Well, who knows? Maybe Illumi would have called a bit sooner, or the coward weakling might have fled long enough, or he might just have been extremely lucky (like the dice-thing) to avoid all attacks by sheer chance.

The reason why doesn't really matter, however; one can still feel confident, once the prophesy says you are not going to die, that you're not going to die, whomever you confront. That logic is irrefutable, Reckoner.

So, ultimately, once you have that kind of prophesy, it doesn't matter what level of nen-mastery you have anymore. You don't NEED superior nen-abilities anymore to be confident to stay alive, because you already know you'll stay alive..It's impossible that weaksauce gets the same prophecy since he would be fated to die to begin with. This is where your flaw lies.

The same goes for Kuroro too: he didn't have to be sure he surpassed (and could beat) two top-tier nen-assassins to stay alive; he already knew he would stay alive. And indeed, as is shown, he's saved by the call of Illumi, and not because he bested Silva and Zeno.See above.

Nakor

10-24-2008, 09:46 PM

i only voted mereum, netero, and ging.

ging is definetly top 5. im not sure about netero or mereum. i don't think we have met the other 4 yet and we may never meet them.

if i had to just pick out of those listed, i would add zeno and morau to the 3 i already mentioned.

hgfdsahjkl

10-24-2008, 10:24 PM

kuroro vs zeno and silva
will end by kuroro death no doubt
the prophecy didnt warn him because he was going to survive as we saw
he was fighting assassins all the day anyway did it warn him about them i dont remember
also note that it didnt mention that Zoaldyecks are going to die
so kuroro > silva and zeno has no base to it
Zoaldyecks werent in any danger

i think the prophecy works like real life you use you skills and you will be able to survive
so if kuroro wasnt serious and used his skills to avoid the attacks he was going to die
you dont just chill and think the prophecy will be right

for example if neon'father was told that he will gain a huge amount of money by this job
isnt he going to do it to gain the money or he is going to chill because the prophecy told him so no he will work his ass off and the prophecy will be true

another example if you were told you will be the first in this exam does that mean you can take it without studying ofcourse not

it is very logical and clear
kuroro was serious he wasnt goofing around
the prophecy just give him the confidence to fight them
the prophesy isnt absolute if you didnt work for it it wont be true the exact same as taking another corse of actionthat is what i think and also what i find to be logical :)

i didnt notice the prophecy part before i used to think it was stupid that kuroro went to fight 2 Zoaldyecks alone but now he was sure he will be able survive by using his skills until fate played its part at the end
oh togashi what a fantastic genius you are
this are one of the good point of discussing HxH cuz you cant notice everything by your self

This is the fundamental difference in between our standpoint. However unfair it might seem that Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim and live to tell the story, it just happens to be the case

so in the end even if you dont agree that kuroro was gong to die from where are you coming with he will beat them it wasnt mentioned any where

i think kuroro>zeno
from what zeno said at the end of thier fight

as for who is stronger between zeno and silva
i will go with silva
because zeno has been unhyped by saying that netero made him cry
and i refuse to think that about the one who is supposed to be strongest of the Zoaldyeck family :pek

on the other hand maha have been hyped

the top 5 will be among those
netero silva maha kuroro ging Mereum

and when we see more of him hisoka :pek

but that is just from what we have seen
first we need to see the people who are said to be the top 5
but still that doesnt mean they are indeed the top 5 but atleast among the top 10-15
people as hisoka kuroro and Zoaldyeck family hunter association has no informations about them

but damn it every time i remember how easily Mereum passed between netero and zeno by togashi own words

makes me afraid that netero might get wtf pwned

blazingshadow

10-25-2008, 02:38 AM

I would agree he was focused on stealing Zeno's abilities at the start, not serious fighting, but that focus clearly stopped after he closed his book. To then say 'maybe he just wanted to play or analyse'...well, meh. Maybe he just wanted to create a new dance too. I mean, everything is possible, but how likely is it? You don't confront two top-tier assassins just to goof around and look at their moves.just wanted to add that his ability is materialization plus specialization like kurapica so if he were to fight using his normal skills he would have materialized something else after closing his book, that is the way he would have fought for real without stolen techniques (unless he uses transformation or manipulation in his back up hatsu)

NeBy

10-25-2008, 07:10 AM

I've written it in pretty understandable terms. I don't know how I can break it down more for you.

Maybe I should rephrase it. Yes, I understood what you said, so you don't have to break that down anymore. But I don't know what your point is, with it. How is it a counter-argument to what I said?

Lovely ghost writer allows people to set about steps to alter unfateful prophecy's and excludes events that are irrelevent. That is canon.

Ok, but...? It clearly says 'his position will not be threatened'. That means he won't be killed. He SAYS so himself, in the scene with Kurapica in the car. The prophesy is always for the upcoming week(s). So, clearly, he knows he's not going to die that week (unless he would deliberately alter it). Let's make sure we don't misunderstand eachother in this regard, or we could be talking besides eachother: do you agree Kuroro knew he wasn't going to die that day/week, or not?

It sounds logical to you, but it doesn't to me.
Something is logical, or it isn't. :wink One can dispute the premise, or one can dispute the logic, but one can't have have a deduction that is logical and illogical at the same time (or for different persons). Logic on itself isn't determined by personal wishes or viewpoints, after all.

It could be, I'm wrong and it's not logical, or it could be you are wrong, or we use different premises to begin with. But we'll get to the bottom of it. :nod

The fact that he was not fated to die in the Zoaldyeck fight was determined before he even met Neon. You act like he has somehow changed from that point on, that he has some sort of new found confidence to fight them because he knew he wouldn't die, while the prophecy has marginally or nothing to do with his fate, since it was not unfortunate to begin with. That is why I called it baseless conjecture.

I see I'm misunderstood right there. I'm not saying he changed the outcome of the prophesy once he heard it, at all. Why should he? The prophesy was fortunate for him; he knew he was going to stay alive that day. I don't see how one can say that has *nothing* to do with his fate, as it's directly said his fate was not to die that day. But I'm NOT saying he changed it, obviously. And why wouldn't that give him a new confidence? That doesn't seem such an implausible thing, on the contrary. Let's say you have to fight a battle to the death with someone...you might be strong enough to win, or you might not be...then you hear a prophesy (which is true) that you are not going to die that week. How would that NOT give you some more confidence?

Surely you must see that that isn't very logical to assume. Whatever he might have thought of his chances before, after hearing such a prophesy, it's more likely than not that his confidence will have received a boost.

It's not conjecture because that was his future to begin with judged by the fact that the prophecy never mentioned it. Remember the prophecy only warns about unfateful future events, so that the actor can change his actions based on that.

That is not true. I agree it gives the possibility to change unfateful future events, but nowhere is it said it ONLY predicts unfateful events. It *clearly* says his position will not be threatened. I mean, that's canon. Is that an unfateful event, on itself? No. I rest my case. Nor are parts of other prophesies, such as with Hisoka saying he traded with a red eyed half-demon, half angel (Kurapica), or that Kuroro should search in the East... all these things may have been part of a bigger poem predicting unfateful event, but they are not unfateful on themselves, and thus the prophesy doesn't restrict itself to mention only unfateful events in every aspect it tells.

This is the fundamental difference in between our standpoint. However unfair it might seem that Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim and live to tell the story, it just happens to be the case.

No, that's not (necessarily) the case. I mean, one is mixing up two things now; that he survived the attack of two assassins, and the *reason* for him being able to do that. You're automatically presuming it's because he is superior than both assassins, but you don't substantiate that claim. I say it's more likely (seen the fact he was getting beaten the snot out of him) that he was saved by the telephone call. What is FACT, in any case, is that the fight stopped after the phonecall, and NOT after Kuroro defeated the two assassins.
Now, *IS* he superior? It *might* be the case, but it's very unlikely, due to the reasons I gave in my other posts. But you've not really argumented why you deduce he could beat two Zoaldyeks at the same time. He was clearly loosing the battle (or at least, nowhere it was shown he had the upperhand on the two, which would be necessary to make the claim he's superior), and the only counter-argument I heard was: yeah, but he was only playing around. But on what basis is that? One can only logically deduce it's because at the start, he tried to steal Zeno's abilities and was trying to stall (for what? for Illumi to kill the godfathers, or a better chance of stealing? If it was the latter, than that reason vanishes when he closes his book. If the former, than he was counting on biding enough time for Illumi to succeed; something he would not need to do if he was so powerful he could take both of them on at the same time, as you claim). Once he closed that book and gave up on stealing anything, there is no real basis for that claim. And while true Zeno said if he would be totally serious and intent on killing him in a one to one fight, things may be different, this doesn't lead to a conclusion he's more powerful than any one of them, let alone both of them together. Note that he was speaking of a 'one-to-one' and of 'might'. How more unlikely is it, that he would win against both at the same time, then?

But, regardless, even if he WAS playing around, my point is, that that isn't a counterargument to claim he's definitely superior, because he could *afford* to play around, knowing he wouldn't die that day. I'm not asking you to agree if he played around or not, or that he was superior or not...just acknowledge the possibility that he might have played around (if he did so, in the end - which is debatable on itself), because he well knew he could afford it, due to the prophesy.

Fightingskills were the determining factor in the outcome of the fight. If he were actually weaksauce that fight would have ended within a second. The only reason why the prophecy didn't warn him of the fight was because he was powerful enough to survive the assassination attempt to begin with and thus his life was also never in any danger. Obviously that isn't the same with weaksauce. If Neon read the prophecy of some weaksauce in Kuroro's stead, it would undoubtebly have warned the weaksauce of his impending doom.

No. I'm sorry, but you really don't use logic on this one. Are you now claiming there is NO WAY a prophesy could claim that anyone weaker than another could not die when fighting that person? That doesn't make any sense. We've already determined that there are so many variables in which a battle may be decided, including how someone feels that day (in top-form or not), the environment, luck, etc. In fact, that other person could just decide, on a whim, not to kill you after all, even if he did beat you. Would the prophesy than not say you're not going to die, even if you're hopelessly weak, compared to the other guy?

I'm not understanding how you can fail to see the logic of that.

Your claim that the prophesy would only claim Kuroro wouldn't die that day is, because he's stronger than the both of them, is clearly a wrong deduction. There could be myriads of other reasons why he wouldn't die that day - including a telephone call from Illumi that stops the two of killing him.

It's impossible that weaksauce gets the same prophecy since he would be fated to die to begin with. This is where your flaw lies.

See above.

No, it's not. I've just given you ample examples of why it's perfectly possible that anyone could have a prediction saying he won't die, even when confronting a superior enemy. For f- sake, it's not that difficult to make that deduction! Say you are supposed to fight the world champion in karate to the death, and you have, strength-wise, no chance of winning and he's sure to kill you, etc., etc. And yet the prophesy says that you are not going to die. In your option, it is *impossible* (as you claim) that such a thing would be prophesied: the prophesy would always claim you would die, in that case. Right? Well, and then that karate-champion has a car-accident on his way to you, or slips and breaks his neck when fighting you, and dies. Did you die that day, then? No. Did you prove you were superior to the champion? No.

Now, what part is so difficult (or illogical) to understand in this reasoning? The prophesy can ALWAYS claim you won't die, whether you are truly superior in fighting skills or not. Surely you must see that, when thinking about it logically?

One might reasonably claim it is unlikely a prophesy would claim that, agreed. In most cases, a person who is going to fight another person to the death who has far superior fighting-skills, is going to die. But you never know, and seen the many external variables, it's still is quite possible. It is also unlikely that a top-notch fighter could defeat two other top-notch fighters at the same time (see post below). And what does the anime/manga shows? Does it show Kuroro beating the two assassins, or does it show some external factor interfering?
It shows the fight stops when the telephone rang, not when Kuroro bested the assassins. Therefor, it is most logical to give credence to the first assumption, rather than the latter.

Jon Snow

10-25-2008, 07:12 AM

Well shit

in after wall of text

Neby's weapon number 1, scare the posters away with walls of text. It's super effective

:(

NeBy

10-25-2008, 07:44 AM

kuroro vs zeno and silva
will end by kuroro death no doubt
the prophecy didnt warn him because he was going to survive as we saw
he was fighting assassins all the day anyway did it warn him about them i dont remember
also note that it didnt mention that Zoaldyecks are going to die
so kuroro > silva and zeno has no base to it
Zoaldyecks werent in any danger

i think the prophecy works like real life you use you skills and you will be able to survive
so if kuroro wasnt serious and used his skills to avoid the attacks he was going to die
you dont just chill and think the prophecy will be right

I largely agree. One can't have it both ways: OR he believed the prophesy, which means he know he wasn't going to die, OR he didn't, which means he was fighting seriously.

If people claim he was goofing around even while not believing the prophesy, that would make Kuroro an idiot. No-one would goof around with two of the deadliest nen-assassins in hxh.

Besides...didn't Silva say himself that he would have to take a risk with his own life, to beat Kuroro?

There you have it in a nutshell!

It directly implies two things: that Kuroro is strong enough for Silva to get serious, and at the same time that Silva has a good chance of beating him if he does.

Nowhere can it be deduced from the whole thing that Kuroro is superior to both Silva nad Zeno at the same time. The only thing one can reasonably assume, is that Kuroro is fucking strong, and probably Kuroro = Zeno (based on the comment at the end).

But Kuroro = Zeno, does not mean Kuroro > Zeno + Silva, and in fact, that is very unlikely.

To give an analogy: if you're one of the champions in karate, you might easily win against two noobs without any martial art-knowledge. You might win with difficulty against another top-notch champion of karate...but it is *extremely* unlikely any karate champion would be able to successfully beat two other karate-champions at the same time. (Especially if they work in fluent unison against the first, as is the case with Zeno and Silva).

I'm not understanding the difficulty some have with that. Clearly, it's more likely than not, that the two champions will win.

Well shit

in after wall of text

Neby's weapon number 1, scare the posters away with walls of text. It's super effective

:(

LOLZ! :laugh

Actually, it's not THAT big of a wall; I've hold back. :pek

bSupernova

10-25-2008, 07:58 AM

Where is chapter 284 anyway :oh I refuse to touch the RAW or spoilers.

NeBy

10-25-2008, 07:59 AM

Where is chapter 284 anyway :oh

Wrong thread. Try something with 'chapter 284' in the title. :P

But...Ermm...I'm not sure the scanlation is out yet... :oh

bSupernova

10-25-2008, 08:00 AM

That thread is full of spoilers though.. gotta whine somewhere :P

Danchou

10-25-2008, 02:49 PM

Maybe I should rephrase it. Yes, I understood what you said, so you don't have to break that down anymore. But I don't know what your point is, with it. How is it a counter-argument to what I said?My claim that Lovely Ghost Writer Lovely informs people of unfateful future events so that they can avoid it and excludes events that have no relevance to the future such as him facing the Zoaldyecks, means that the confrontation was never of any importance to begin. You don't understand how that is a counter-argument to what you said?

..

: do you agree Kuroro knew he wasn't going to die that day/week, or not?Yes, I do. I wouldn't neccessarily explain the prophecy in that way, but the prophecy certainly inferred that he wasn't going to die in the near future. Though the fact of the matter is that he was not going to die by Kurapica's hands, the Zoaldyecks' hands, Hisoka's hands, the Mafia assassins' hands etc.

Something is logical, or it isn't. :wink One can dispute the premise, or one can dispute the logic, but one can't have have a deduction that is logical and illogical at the same time (or for different persons). Logic on itself isn't determined by personal wishes or viewpoints, after all.

It could be, I'm wrong and it's not logical, or it could be you are wrong, or we use different premises to begin with. But we'll get to the bottom of it. :nodNotice how I said that it sounds logical to you, but not to me. That should convey that I am talking in subjective terms. Since something can be logical and something can sound logical to someone but sound different from another's point of view.

Though this is pointless squabling anyway, so let's not get into that. :)

I see I'm misunderstood right there. I'm not saying he changed the outcome of the prophesy once he heard it, at all. ..

And why wouldn't that give him a new confidence? That doesn't seem such an implausible thing, on the contrary. Let's say you have to fight a battle to the death with someone...you might be strong enough to win, or you might not be...then you hear a prophesy (which is true) that you are not going to die that week. How would that NOT give you some more confidence?

...I still don't feel how were seeing eye to eye on how the prophecy works and what significance it had for Kuroro's future after he had his fortune told. We seem to understand the same, but look at it from different angles. I try to substantiate my claims with by using the manga as sole reference. The 'new found confidence theory' does not follow suit and is honestly basically just conjecture.

What matters though is the following which is also the most important part of my argument. Do you agree that Kuroro's life was never in any danger throughout the following weeks and months to come based on the prophecy? The fact that the prophecy never mentioned and warned him of the upcoming fight with the Zoaldyecks, could only mean that it was deemed irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.
It's basically in the same way that Kuroro deduced that Kurapica was not of any threat towards him. link 1 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20114/compressed/12916_272457.jpg) link 2 (http://38.106.107.18/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20114/compressed/12916_272458.jpg) I don't really see how there is any credible way around that.

Fact of the matter remains that, however unfair it may seem, Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim (which is how I would categorise that stint) and live to tell the story. Note that you should be able to tell by my phrasing that it doesn't mean that he can defeat the two Zoaldyecks at the same time, but it reflects the gist of the fight between them.

That is not true. I agree it gives the possibility to change unfateful future events, but nowhere is it said it ONLY predicts unfateful events. .. all these things may have been part of a bigger poem predicting unfateful event, but they are not unfateful on themselves, and thus the prophesy doesn't restrict itself to mention only unfateful events in every aspect it tells.I should have pharsed that better. I got a bit confused with Neon mentioning that she shared the believes of the tv fortuneteller who thought predictions were to make living beings achieve happiness and consequently made predictions of bad news so that people can do their best to avoid those.

So while the main purpose of the ability is to avoid unfateful events (http://38.106.107.18/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273146.jpg), you (indeed) have to look at the prophecies in the grander scheme of things. It's as you said in your last lines ('all these... it tells.'). I meant to convey that.

More importantly, it still doesnt discredit my remark that Kuroro could have proceeded as he did irregardless of whether he had received the prophecy since he was not fated to die in that encounter or the weeks and months to come, any which way. The times that people's lifes are in danger the prophecy actually warns them about it so that they can avoid it. link 1 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%2072/compressed/13087_275442.jpg) link 2 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273143.jpg) link 3 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273144.jpg)

No, that's not (necessarily) the case. I mean, one is mixing up two things now; that he survived the attack of two assassins, and the *reason* for him being able to do that.

..I have dealt with this already. See above.

That said, judging by the fight and his approach towards it, it seems that he deemed that playing around with them like that would not have resulted in his death either way. And he was proven right.

If i were to theorize (which I'd rather not), I'd say that it seems that the prophecy merely takes the original future of the subject in question into account. i.e. the future of how the subject would have lived if his future was never foretold. In the case that it leads to an unfateful event, it allows you to take the necessary steps to avoid them or advices you on the best path to follow. If there is no such thing, you can carry on as you as usual.

No. I'm sorry, but you really don't use logic on this one. Are you now claiming there is NO WAY a prophesy could claim that anyone weaker than another could not die when fighting that person? That doesn't make any sense. We've already determined that there are so many variables in which a battle may be decided, including how someone feels that day (in top-form or not), the environment, luck, etc. In fact, that other person could just decide, on a whim, not to kill you after all, even if he did beat you. Would the prophesy than not say you're not going to die, even if you're hopelessly weak, compared to the other guy?

I'm not understanding how you can fail to see the logic of that.

Your claim that the prophesy would only claim Kuroro wouldn't die that day is, because he's stronger than the both of them, is clearly a wrong deduction. There could be myriads of other reasons why he wouldn't die that day - including a telephone call from Illumi that stops the two of killing him.Yet again, see my previous replies. I'd prefer it if you didn't place place words in my mouth.

Additionally, I sense a fundamental difference in opinion about how the prophecy works or rather how it should work. As I see it, the future is fixed i.e. predetermined. Lovely Ghost Writer allows people to avoid an unfateful future by taking the necessary steps to prevent said events from happening.

If weaksauce were told the prophecy in Kuroro's stead he would have been predestined to die by the Zoaldyecks' hands. Just like how it was predestined that Veze, Tochino and Iwancolef or the other bidders in the auction were destined to die when they faced the Ryodan and wouldn't instead have survived the whole ordeal for some arbitrary reason. It's because they were not fated to survive that event to begin with.

That said, in another scenerio where someone were to 'encounter' an superior opponent who is able to kill him, but if he weren't meant to die to begin with, there is a possibility that the prediction would not have mentioned it as it is deemed irrelevant, but that's uncertain and honestly not all that relevant here. I.e. if Senritsu had her fortune read ahead of time would the prediction mention that she would be visited by the Genei Ryodan but that she would escape after Ubo's scream alerted her and allowed er to run away? We do not know that precisely and it doesn't seem plausible.

No, it's not. I've just given you ample examples of why it's perfectly possible that anyone could have a prediction saying he won't die, even when confronting a superior enemy. ..

..

These are mostly personal analogies which you write off as common sense, but which have nothing to do with canonical events in the manga. Due to the fact that we don't know exactly how Lovely Ghost Writer works, we have no idea how your analogies would hold up against it, except for theorizing about them.

So, I advise you to rely on (examples from) the manga only instead of threading into a terrain of things which we can not determine anyway. I'm sorry if I sound a bit frustrated at the moment, but I have the unsatisfying feeling that we are going in circles.

I think we'll just have agree to disagree overall. :)

Ennoea

10-25-2008, 03:39 PM

So this is where you all have been, my god so many essay's to get through:wha

The Faint Smile

10-25-2008, 03:55 PM

phew...too much reading for me. My top 5(based on shown skiils/and concrete statements)
1. Ging- They straight up say he's top 5...
2. Meruem- Impressive intellect and has already shown ability to get within killing distance of Netero and Zeno with ease.
3. Kuroro- Literal book full of techniques, the few we've seen are quite useful...survived fight with Zeno and Silva while trying to steal Zeno's technique.
4. Netero- His hit on Pitou was extremely impressive, all of his build up has been impressive too.
5. Zeno- Really Maha should be here...but he's done almost nothing. He's shown the most devastating technique on panel.

NeBy

10-25-2008, 05:45 PM

Have to cut it in three, because text is too long! Ah, the good days are back!! :grin

My claim that Lovely Ghost Writer Lovely informs people of unfateful future events so that they can avoid it and excludes events that have no relevance to the future such as him facing the Zoaldyecks, means that the confrontation was never of any importance to begin. You don't understand how that is a counter-argument to what you said?

No, I don't. The confrontation was never important...well, ok. He was told he wouldn't die. What is more important? If he would have been told he would die, then that confrontation certainly would have mattered. I'm just not seeing how the fact that he fight wasn't mentioned (and thus the confrontation didn't matter) is a counter-argument to my point that he knew he wasn't going to die by the hands of the Zaoldyecks. If anything, it seems to substantiate it. :huh

Maybe you meant it to be a counter-argument because you thought I meant he deliberately changed his future after hearing it, but I never tried to imply that.

Yes, I do. I wouldn't neccessarily explain the prophecy in that way, but the prophecy certainly inferred that he wasn't going to die in the near future. Though the fact of the matter is that he was not going to die by Kurapica's hands, the Zoaldyecks' hands, Hisoka's hands, the Mafia assassins' hands etc.

Agreed. Well, what are we debating/disagreeing on then?! :argh

Notice how I said that it sounds logical to you, but not to me. That should convey that I am talking in subjective terms. Since something can be logical and something can sound logical to someone but sound different from another's point of view.

Well, technically, it doesn't make any sound, but I agree with you with the below sentence. :P

Though this is pointless squabling anyway, so let's not get into that. :)

Yes, one could become quite pedantic, that way. :amuse But...let's also be honest: if you say 'it may sounds logical to you', I think you are also inferring that it IS either not logical, or something can be logical and illogical at the same time, or logic is dependent on the person. I would say the first is possible (though unlikely ;-), but the latter two certainly aren't.

Anyway, you're right it's sidetracking, and not really relevant to the discussion.

I still don't feel how were seeing eye to eye on how the prophecy works and what significance it had for Kuroro's future after he had his fortune told. We seem to understand the same, but look at it from different angles. I try to substantiate my claims with by using the manga as sole reference. The 'new found confidence theory' does not follow suit and is honestly basically just conjecture.
I only mentioned that, because you seem to believe it could have nothing to do with it, while I tried to demonstrate it could easily be part of it. On itself, it's not that far-fetched to have a boost of confidence, when you hear you're not going to die that day, while knowing you have some serious fights ahead of you. I would claim this is more likely to be the case than it isn't. But it's not really relevant, since my point wasn't that he deliberately changed his future after hearing it in any case. So it's also a side-track that we can skip in our next posts.

What matters though is the following which is also the most important part of my argument. Do you agree that Kuroro's life was never in any danger throughout the following weeks and months to come based on the prophecy? The fact that the prophecy never mentioned and warned him of the upcoming fight with the Zoaldyecks, could only mean that it was deemed irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.
It's basically in the same way that Kuroro deduced that Kurapica was not of any threat towards him. link 1 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20114/compressed/12916_272457.jpg) link 2 (http://38.106.107.18/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20114/compressed/12916_272458.jpg) I don't really see how there is any credible way around that.

I see you made great effort in this post! I like that. I actually tried to rep you for it for your former post, but it seems I have to spread it more, first.

Anyway: Yes, I agree his life wasn't in danger, and that he knew his life wasn't going to be in danger that day/week, including when he fought the Zaoldyecks. That was a major part of my point, actually. :grin

As for 'having no importance'...well, nothing had any importance as far as threatening his life was concerned. I'm not sure why you keep focussing on that part, it's like you try to distillate something out of it, but I don't know what. But ok, for arguments' sake: nothing really mattered (in regard to his life) in the next days.

But I don't understand how you come from the above statement to this one:

Fact of the matter remains that, however unfair it may seem, Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim (which is how I would categorise that stint) and live to tell the story. Note that you should be able to tell by my phrasing that it doesn't mean that he can defeat the two Zoaldyecks at the same time, but it reflects the gist of the fight between them.

I think you're skipping some link here, that might seem obvious to you, but not to me. And since I know you pretty well by now, and do put much effort in your posts, I'm sure you're not being deliberately obtuse. But...I need to know your particular line of deduction, for this.

You say something like (scuze me if you feel I put words in your mouth, but I'm trying my best to come to the core of your reasoning):

The prophesy said he didn't have to fear for his life. (We both agree on this.) The fight, thus, didn't matter. (We both agree on this.)

Hence, he's able to...what? Are you now saying you didn't mean he could beat both of them? Or that he dares to fight both of them? I could agree with the latter.

But than we come to our next disagreement (I think): do you claim he fought them on a whim because he's superior than both of them?

I don't see anything to substantiate that, really. He didn't SHOW he could pwn them both, in fact, he was getting some serious beating at the end. He might have *thought* he could handle it. Or he might have thought he didn't risk anything, since the prophesy told him so.

I think your point is, you don't believe in the latter. But fact is, by then, he DID new about it. That knowledge isn't something you can shrug of. Does that mean he wouldn't have fought them if he didn't hear the prophesy? (Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the gripes you have with it?) Well...maybe not. It's difficult to say if he would have acted *exactly* the same. He surely wouldn't have acted the same if the prophesy HAD told him he was going to die, so is it that far-fecthed he may have been a bit more prudent? Do you think the knowledge and certitude that you aren't going to die does not have *any* effect on a persons' behaviour?

I think that is unlikely...but is indeterminable to know how much Kuroro would have done things differently if there hadn't been a prophesy. It's quite certain not everything would have happened exactly as it did now, however: for starters, he wouldn't have been sitting and talking and listening to Neons' prophesy, if there hadn't been any prophesy. He wouldn't have stolen the ability from Neon to prophesise, if he didn't know anything about her ability. Which in turn means, one of the other top-assassins wouldn't have seen him hit her, and go after him, etc.

But anyway, we digress. You would call all that conjecture, I suppose. And to some extent it is, but we can still use logic in it; and I think it's more likely than not, that a change of the prophesy would also lead to some change in things happening.

But is it relevant in establishing if he could beat two top-assassins? No. So we can skip that one too (unless it answered one of your gripes).

NeBy

10-25-2008, 05:46 PM

I should have pharsed that better. I got a bit confused with Neon mentioning that she shared the believes of the tv fortuneteller who thought predictions were to make living beings achieve happiness and consequently made predictions of bad news so that people can do their best to avoid those.
I had a feeling you did. :)

So while the main purpose of the ability is to avoid unfateful events (http://38.106.107.18/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273146.jpg), you (indeed) have to look at the prophecies in the grander scheme of things. It's as you said in your last lines ('all these... it tells.'). I meant to convey that.

Ok, we're in agreement then. Again. smile-big

More importantly, it still doesnt discredit my remark that Kuroro could have proceeded as he did irregardless of whether he had received the prophecy since he was not fated to die in that encounter or the weeks and months to come, any which way. The times that people's lifes are in danger the prophecy actually warns them about it so that they can avoid it. link 1 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%2072/compressed/13087_275442.jpg) link 2 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273143.jpg) link 3 (http://38.106.106.218/Manga/Hunter%20X%20Hunter/Hunter%20X%20Hunter%20104/compressed/12956_273144.jpg)

I have dealt with this already. See above.

Well, he *could* have. I doubt the prophesy had NO influence on him whatsoever (it doesn't make much sense, that), but it's impossible to know what would have changed. So, he might have proceeded the way he did, or maybe not.

It doesn't have any bearings on his possibility of beating two top-tier nen-assassins, though. But maybe that wasn't your main point. (It was to me, however, so maybe that's why we're debating so long).

That said, judging by the fight and his approach towards it, it seems that he deemed that playing around with them like that would not have resulted in his death either way. And he was proven right.

Well, yes. That was one of my points too.

If i were to theorize (which I'd rather not), I'd say that it seems that the prophecy merely takes the original future of the subject in question into account. i.e. the future of how the subject would have lived if his future was never foretold. In the case that it leads to an unfateful event, it allows you to take the necessary steps to avoid them or advices you on the best path to follow. If there is no such thing, you can carry on as you as usual.
I largely agree. Though this implies, he might have fooled around a bit more with the Zoaldyeks then he would have otherwise.

To be honest (and this undermines my own previous statement); I'm not too sure it only is with 'unfateful' events, that one can change the future. Yes, it is said you can change your unfateful event in the manga/anime, but it didn't explicitly exclude changing your fortunate future, does it? It just doesn't make much sense to change things that are good for you.

But...if I think it might be possible to change any event if 1)you hear your future from Ghost writer, and thus, you know it. 2)you make an deliberate effort to change that particular effort. 3)Time restraint: as is said in the manga/anime; the future changed 'little by little' during the week, avoiding the destruction of half of the spiders, as predicted. I guess the more rapidly you want to change a thing (or the more 'fixed' it is), the more effort you need to do.

I know it's a bit sidetracking, but stay with me, it's just a new theory. The reason I say that is, because otherwise, one gets irreconcilable contradictiuons. Imagine a guy hearing he's not going to die that week. That's fortunate. If he wouldn't be able to change that, even by making a huge effort (suicide)...that would lead to a sort of invincibility for the duration of that week. He could jump right into the middle of a vulcano, swim in hot magma, or let himself be shot in the head several times...he would still not die.

It's not impossible that external factors would lead to failure(s) of taking his life, but it sure would be unlikely.

Anwyay, back to topic.

Yet again, see my previous replies. I'd prefer it if you didn't place place words in my mouth.

Hey, I'm trying my best to distillate what I think you mean. I could be mistaken, and you're right in rectifying it, but I have to start somewhere. :cry

Additionally, I sense a fundamental difference in opinion about how the prophecy works or rather how it should work. As I see it, the future is fixed i.e. predetermined. Lovely Ghost Writer allows people to avoid an unfateful future by taking the necessary steps to prevent said events from happening.

You do realise you're contradicting yourself in one and the same paragraph? If the future is truly fixed and predetermined, you can't change anything. If you can change something, it's not fixed.

An unfateful future is still a future, so if the future is fixed, an unfateful future is fixed too.

But I guess you want to convey that it's fixed for all futures, except for unfateful ones. It's another theory then what I just said, but not entirely impossible. What is your answers to the contradictions I've pointed out, if I may ask?

If weaksauce were told the prophecy in Kuroro's stead he would have been predestined to die by the Zoaldyecks' hands.

This, it seems, we are, indeed, in disagreement on. How can you KNOW that?
I mean, really, you keep saying that, but let me ask you a direct question:

Can you exclude the possibility, that a weaksauce, when fighting the Zoaldyecks, would EVER get the prophesy that he wouldn't die as well?

It just seems totally implausable to me you can *exclude* that possibility. For instance, a weaksauce mught have been running form one chamber to another, trying to hide, using zetsu, try to mingle among the remaining mob, flee the building when he sensed the en of Zeno, etc. Maybe stalling his death *just* long enough, for Silva to get the phone - just as happened with Kuroro. In that case, his life would not have been taken too, and the prophesy would have said the same: that his life wasn't at risk that week.

There is no basis to assume everyone confronting the Zoaldyecks are 'destined' to die, unless they hear it in a prophesy. The assassins clearly quite trying to kill him after their contracters were dead, so anything that would stall long enough for that call, would have saved the life of the one the Zoaldyecks were confronting, in Kuroro's stead.

NeBy

10-25-2008, 05:47 PM

Just like how it was predestined that Veze, Tochino and Iwancolef or the other bidders in the auction were destined to die when they faced the Ryodan and wouldn't instead have survived the whole ordeal for some arbitrary reason. It's because they were not fated to survive that event to begin with.

Why not? You're talking in hindsight now, and you can't change a future that you don't know (because the change itself could be deemed the future), but if they *had* known their future (by ghost writer, for instance), they could've easily changed that (even when using your theory, because that would be an unfateful event'. In fact, I suspect that's the way Dalzollene escaped death; he knew people were going to die in the auction (which was why he was troubled sending his men in), but he didn't go himself... something he normally would have done.

You make the mistake of denouncing it as an 'arbitrary decision'...but it's only arbitrary if you don't know any better. If it's a conscious move to change your future (and for that, you have to know it in advance), it's perfectly possible to do so, as we have seen.

Furthermore, since you nor I know what the future would hold for a weaksauce - untill we here it from ghost writer - one CAN NOT possibly say it's impossible that the future may preclude the possibility of him staying alive. Otherwise, you're playing Ghost Writer, and even than the person himself may not knowing anything of it. :laugh

This remains true even if you think the future is predestined. Even if it was, you don't KNOW the future of a weaksauce. He could as well be predestined to stay alive!

That said, in another scenerio where someone were to 'encounter' an superior opponent who is able to kill him, but if he weren't meant to die to begin with, there is a possibility that the prediction would not have mentioned it as it is deemed irrelevant,

It's irrelevant to know whether one dies or not? Regardless, if a prophesy would tell you when you die, than if it's not mentioned that you're going to die, it's implied that you're going to stay alive, which is as good as having it said one isn't going to die. That said, it seemed relevant enough for the prophesy to say it to Kuroro, so I don't see any basis to conclude it wouldn't be relevant for another person as well.

but that's uncertain and honestly not all that relevant here. I.e. if Senritsu had her fortune read ahead of time would the prediction mention that she would be visited by the Genei Ryodan but that she would escape after Ubo's scream alerted her and allowed er to run away? We do not know that precisely and it doesn't seem plausible.

It would probably be something in the line that we've seen already: a poem describing 'visitors' and 'eternal sleep' if she confronts them. As you said, one can never be sure, however, and that was also my point.

These are mostly personal analogies which you write off as common sense, but which have nothing to do with canonical events in the manga. Due to the fact that we don't know exactly how Lovely Ghost Writer works, we have no idea how your analogies would hold up against it, except for theorizing about them.

They are analogies which are used to establish the most logical outcome. If you don't agree with the logic in them, please give some analogies of your own, in which it is made clear that other outcomes are more likely, then what I described. You have to base yourself on something to deduce something.

As long as canonical events/facts don't dispute it, making logical analogies are the (second) best way to establish what is more likely, or not. Ghost writer isn't the main focus of the point I was trying to make, btw. Only that the assertion that Kuroro > Zeno + Silva is extremely unlikely is my main point. Canonical evidence does not point to that conclusion. What is left is subjective interpretations about what certain things mean. To make that a bit less subjective, analogies are good tools: they can filter out illogical assumptions when compared to other examples.

So, I advise you to rely on (examples from) the manga only instead of threading into a terrain of things which we can not determine anyway. I'm sorry if I sound a bit frustrated at the moment, but I have the unsatisfying feeling that we are going in circles.

I think we'll just have agree to disagree overall. :)

I'm not fully in agreement here. If one ONLY restrict oneself to canonical evidence, very, very little can be made conclusive. In that case, it starts with the premise I didn't agree with in the first place; that Kuroro > Zeno + Silva. Where, in the manga, is that actually shown to be canon?

I think we can both agree that it's nowhere to be seen; it's only an interpretation. In which case, following your own advice, it shouldn't be deemed relied on as being true. If you DO allow some interpretation, than it is allowed in both ways, and in that case, the most logical one wins. To determine the most logical one(s), analogies are a fairly good choice: it beats just random opinions, in any case.

In conclusion: I actually have the impression we agree about most things. :)

Pimp of Pimps

10-25-2008, 08:58 PM

blazingshadow

10-25-2008, 09:11 PM

let me explain what is that neby doesn't get from the other poster

Yes, I agree his life wasn't in danger, and that he knew his life wasn't going to be in danger that day/week, including when he fought the Zaoldyecks. That was a major part of my point, actually.his life wasn't in any danger because he is better than both of them or at least good enough to fight them head on in a confrontation and leave without any problems.

I don't see anything to substantiate that, really.
the prophesy is the proof that he is better than zeno + silva. they were never a threat to his life because lucifer is good enough to shrug off an encounter with the both of them thus no prophesy about that.

He didn't SHOW he could pwn them both, in fact, he was getting some serious beating at the endlike aizen said once before it is harder to step on an ant and not crush it than just crushing it. he held back too much so he got beat up for his inability to gauge his opponents ability correctly.

Does that mean he wouldn't have fought them if he didn't hear the prophesy?maybe or maybe he would have just fought them both to pass the time and left when it was time for his plan to go or just fought and crushed them. those are all the posibilities anyways.

I doubt the prophesy had NO influence on him whatsoever
the prophesy made him overconfident so he got beat up

now that i hopefully have clarified the confusion between you two, stop making long posts that just go around the subject and lead to the middle of nowhere.

NeBy

10-25-2008, 09:21 PM

@blazingshadow: You only succeeded in adding more confusion! It's late, but rest assured I'll respond in full, eventually. Invalid assumptions will be rooted out and squashed like Zitoh was done by silva. :LOS

blazingshadow

10-25-2008, 10:08 PM

Invalid assumptions will be rooted out and squashed like Zitoh was done by silva. it's not an invalid assumption, it is what the other poster said (or at least what i understood from those huge posts you guys like to annoy me with)

i just simplified them by cutting all the logic and overanalizing babble out.

Power16

10-25-2008, 10:54 PM

All the prophecy did was to show that Kuroro wouldn't die and the phone was that save. Neby had a nice point in that regard in his post against Reckoner

Nothing in the fight showed he was better than them especially Zeno which is why he ask him that question at the end, imo.

I'm hoping that no one here really thinks that Kuroro could actually beat both Zeno and Silva at the same time, otherwise you are hopeless.

blazingshadow

10-25-2008, 11:09 PM

I'm hoping that no one here really thinks that Kuroro could actually beat both Zeno and Silva at the same time, otherwise you are hopeless.i do and the hopeless are those who believe he isn't at least on par with them

Nothing in the fight showed he was better than them especially Zeno which is why he ask him that question at the end, imo.
he asked him that question because he was unsure about his power gauging.

All the prophecy did was to show that Kuroro wouldn't die that is regardless if he fought for real or not. whatever he did he wouldn't even get seriously hurt enough to affect the rest of the prophecy which is why he is strong enough to at least pass the 2 assasins as a mere inconvenience unworthy of mention in the prophecy.

Power16

10-25-2008, 11:26 PM

i do and the hopeless are those who believe he isn't at least on par with them

Individually yes, and i think everyone can agree on that.

he asked him that question because he was unsure about his power gauging.

Because he was uncertain of victory if he fought seriously and Zeno pointed that he would be also uncertain by his comment which again points to them being somewhat close in power in a one on one and with the whole nen battle comment by Morau agrees with Zeno's answer.

that is regardless if he fought for real or not. whatever he did he wouldn't even get seriously hurt enough to affect the rest of the prophecy which is why he is strong enough to at least pass the 2 assasins as a mere inconvenience unworthy of mention in the prophecy.

The whole fight itself was an inconvenience as neither side had any real damage and both the assassins later feats basically proves that everyone was holding back in that fight regardless of what they said during the fight. Silva's comment about Kuroro and the information on his ability plus the little flash back image can be sign to them having battled one on one at one point. The call coming when it did was something already taken into consideration through prophecy and hence knowing that and what would proceeded it the whole battle was really nothing i can understand it not being mention.

bSupernova

10-25-2008, 11:47 PM

The whole fight itself was an inconvenience as neither side had any real damage

Right.
Very little was shown from both parties. The whole fight was a tease, a very, very good one might I add, but I think you guys are overanalysing this too much. I will sit here quitely until we see more of these characters, but until then I'll hold out.

As for you guys going back and forth with the arguments.. Oh well, whatever beats boredom I guess haha.

Taleran

10-26-2008, 01:10 AM

Also Zeno and Silva are just in all of their fights for the money, maybe Kuroro was a better tipper than the Godfathers and they were just stalling for time

blazingshadow

10-26-2008, 01:29 AM

Because he was uncertain of victory if he fought seriously and Zeno pointed that he would be also uncertain by his comment which again points to them being somewhat close in power in a one on one and with the whole nen battle comment by Morau agrees with Zeno's answer...
Silva's comment about Kuroro and the information on his ability plus the little flash back image can be sign to them having battled one on one at one point.
lucifer was certain that he was either going to win or that the assasins will have to retreat or in the worst case scenario (time running out) the fight would be cancelled but like you said lucifer already had info on the assasins and decided to pass the time. you don't do that if you know the enemy is stronger than you and already have info on their abilities. you stay and pass the time with 2 top assasins ready to kill you because you don't consider them a threat at all.

Morau agrees with Zeno's answeryou mean the guy who stupidly doesn't chain his pipe to himself even though that is the only way he can use his nen? to me he has no credibility in gauging ppl stronger than him that he hasn't seen (meaning lucifer)

like i said before lucifer got beat up because he trusted too much in the prophecy by fooling around more than he should and zeno was worried about his life ending because of silva's attack and not being able to get away despite his best efforts.
edit:
Also Zeno and Silva are just in all of their fights for the money, maybe Kuroro was a better tipper than the Godfathers and they were just stalling for time if that was true then they didn't need to fight him at all. all they had to do is go watch a movie with lucifer while illumi did his job.

Power16

10-26-2008, 02:20 AM

lucifer was certain that he was either going to win or that the assasins will have to retreat or in the worst case scenario (time running out) the fight would be cancelled but like you said lucifer already had info on the assasins and decided to pass the time. you don't do that if you know the enemy is stronger than you and already have info on their abilities. you stay and pass the time with 2 top assasins ready to kill you because you don't consider them a threat at all.

Lucifer was not certain of anything other then he'd ultimately make it out alive and the fight certainly didn't show that he would win. Kuroro probably know of their name maybe what Silva can do he didn't know Zeno. From that last comment i see you actually believe Kuroro could take these two guys out at the same time hence hopeless or really don't understand how nen battle work. You're not going to just know if your stronger than your opponent and you have no idea what sort of hatsu they might have (Morau comment).

you mean the guy who stupidly doesn't chain his pipe to himself even though that is the only way he can use his nen? to me he has no credibility in gauging ppl stronger than him that he hasn't seen (meaning lucifer)

like i said before lucifer got beat up because he trusted too much in the prophecy by fooling around more than he should and zeno was worried about his life ending because of silva's attack and not being able to get away despite his best efforts.

Do you even what comment i'm speaking off because its basically the basis of nen fights in HxH verse.

Huh? Zeno set up the attack so that he and Kuroro would take Silva's blast and he wasn't trying to escape it hence his comment about both of them escaping death.

blazingshadow

10-26-2008, 01:49 PM

You're not going to just know if your stronger than your opponent and you have no idea what sort of hatsu they might havethe thing is that he does know what their main hatsu are and he has seen and fought against them in the past. remember how silva got beat up badly in that killua flashback?

From that last comment i see you actually believe Kuroro could take these two guys out at the same time hence hopeless or really don't understand how nen battle work.the hopeless one is you who thinks that lucifer fought against ppl stronger than him for the lulz because he was assured he wouldn't lose by some prophesy.

Lucifer was not certain of anything other then he'd ultimately make it out alive and the fight certainly didn't show that he would win.i already explained this. he got beat up because he trusted too much in the prophesy. he was certain that he was going to make it out alive because he knows the general level of killua's family skills. even killua's sister as a low ranked member realized the power gap there was between herself and the ryodan members

simply speaking the ryodan had a better nen master than the...um...zyolwhatever family.

Nakor

10-26-2008, 02:13 PM

the thing is that he does know what their main hatsu are and he has seen and fought against them in the past. remember how silva got beat up badly in that killua flashback?

it was never said if silva fought kuroro before. he just knew of his hatsu.

also, even though silva came back pretty beat up, he still killed the ryodan member.

blazingshadow

10-26-2008, 02:45 PM

it was never said if silva fought kuroro before. he just knew of his hatsu.

also, even though silva came back pretty beat up, he still killed the ryodan member.that was just one of the run of the mill members, imagine what would happen if it was lucifer. silva is much weaker than lucifer, so much so that he warned zeno to not fool around wit hlucifer when the fight started

Pimp of Pimps

10-26-2008, 06:11 PM

All that means is that Silva is smart enough to give credit where credit is due. Doesn't mean he's a leagues below the leader.

blazingshadow

10-26-2008, 06:43 PM

we'll see after lucifer comes back and pwns everyone. FYI i hate lucifer yet i always keep on defending him lol

Danchou

10-26-2008, 06:51 PM

I can't be bothered making up page long posts this time over, but I never said Kuroro would beat Zeno and Silva simulatenously. This is what I said.

Fact of the matter remains that, however unfair it may seem, Kuroro can take on two Zoaldyecks on a whim (which is how I would categorise that stint) and live to tell the story. Note that you should be able to tell by my phrasing that it doesn't mean that he can defeat the two Zoaldyecks at the same time, but it reflects the gist of the fight between them.

blazingshadow

10-26-2008, 06:59 PM

whatever, ging can kick everyone's asses with one hand tied to his back. yes even meruem and his royal androgynous guards

hgfdsahjkl

10-26-2008, 07:00 PM

we'll see after lucifer comes back and pwns everyone. FYI i hate lucifer yet i always keep on defending him lol

oh
lucifer will never come back
hisoka will send him to hell :amuse

hgfdsahjkl

10-26-2008, 07:02 PM

whatever, ging can kick everyone's asses with one hand tied to his back. yes even meruem and his royal androgynous guards

hisoka can beat him by his erection :amuse

Danchou

10-26-2008, 07:03 PM

Hisoka got tossed around by just learned nen Gon. :pek

hgfdsahjkl

10-26-2008, 07:41 PM

ah ah ah gon...gon ah ah great this great, your eyes, you expression and your spirit
ah ah ah ah ah right now i want to *fuck you* ah ah ah ah
come come :LOS come :LOS ah ah ah

as you can see

hisoka was orgasming at that time he didnt bother himself by gon:amuse:nod
he didnt notice him

Nakor

10-26-2008, 09:38 PM

that was just one of the run of the mill members

that member could have been a front line member like feiten, we may never know. someone like feiten isn't really run of the mill.

Power16

10-27-2008, 11:40 AM

the thing is that he does know what their main hatsu are and he has seen and fought against them in the past. remember how silva got beat up badly in that killua flashback?

Zeno knew nothing about Kuroro and vice versa which is why Silva mention his ability and the comments Kuroro made about Zeno through out the fight. We know Silva killed a Ryoddan member and met/maybe battle Kuroro but he's still alive and if it was around the time he killed the Ryoddan member i'm pretty sure Kuroro would of tried his best to kill him which either ended in a draw or Silva fleeted and there was never a battle.

the hopeless one is you who thinks that lucifer fought against ppl stronger than him for the lulz because he was assured he wouldn't lose by some prophesy.

I already said i believe Kuroro is on their level which is why he lasted as long as he did even when he was getting thrown around the whole fight. It doesn't even look like your following what i'm saying putting words in my mouth, meh.

i already explained this. he got beat up because he trusted too much in the prophesy. he was certain that he was going to make it out alive because he knows the general level of killua's family skills. even killua's sister as a low ranked member realized the power gap there was between herself and the ryodan members

simply speaking the ryodan had a better nen master than the...um...zyolwhatever family.

Ok!

The only one who he would know something about is Silva and maybe their name since everyone knows about the famous assassin family if you read the fight you would know that both Zeno and Kuroro just met each other. Killua's brother you mean and all that is nonessential to the topic.

Your opinion not the manga's.

I can't be bothered making up page long posts this time over, but I never said Kuroro would beat Zeno and Silva simulatenously. This is what I said.

Don't worry about it i only said what i said regarding Kuroro versus Zeno+Silva as a general thing i understood what you meant.

blazingshadow

10-27-2008, 01:14 PM

that member could have been a front line member like feiten, we may never know. someone like feiten isn't really run of the mill.none of the members of the ryodan are to be messed with. even the non combatants are pretty strong in their own right yet lucifer can kick all their asses.

i put lucifer in netero's tier which is quite too much for somebody like zeno or silva to handle. they both might be good enough to make him break a sweat but not enough to make lucifer fear for his life when he is at 100%

I already said i believe Kuroro is on their level which is why he lasted as long as he did even when he was getting thrown around the whole fight. It doesn't even look like your following what i'm saying putting words in my mouth, meh.
i know what you are saying, i'm just saying you are wrong.

when lucifer comes back, puts the fear of the demon from hell on hisoka and starts his new plan we will see who is right and who was right on how the prophecy affected him.

Power16

10-27-2008, 05:29 PM

i know what you are saying, i'm just saying you are wrong.

when lucifer comes back, puts the fear of the demon from hell on hisoka and starts his new plan we will see who is right and who was right on how the prophecy affected him.

No you don't your putting words in my mouth and bringing point that are irrelevant to discussion at hand.

Lucifer coming back and showing us new stuff won't mean much unless we see all of what both Zeno and Silva (we recently got a little from both in And arc) can do or have them battle one on one for real against Kuroro.

This discussion has reach its course, peace.

NeBy

10-27-2008, 06:02 PM

let me explain what is that neby doesn't get from the other poster

his life wasn't in any danger because he is better than both of them or at least good enough to fight them head on in a confrontation and leave without any problems.

I agree his life wasn't in danger. But nobody knew that for sure, including himself, *until* he heard the prophesy. The conclusion that his life wasn't in danger because he's better than them is based on...nothing. He might have thought he was better. Or he may have thought he was risking his life (until the prophesy). Both options are more likely than him thinking he could handle a whole bunch of top-nen-assassins without any risk to his life. He didn't even know which assassins he would meet, and what their abilities and hatsus were.

That would make him into a fool. And he ain't that.

the prophesy is the proof that he is better than zeno + silva. they were never a threat to his life because lucifer is good enough to shrug off an encounter with the both of them thus no prophesy about that.

Wrong deduction/conclusion (as I said). The only thing the prophesy proves, is that he isn't going to die that day. An external factor interfering before he would be killed by the assassins could explain as well that prophesy AND would be more likely than to presume Kuroro was so haxor, he could best two top-tier assassins at the same time. Furthermore, we actually SEE that an external factor (the phonecall) makes an end to the fight, NOT Kuroro beating the assassins (on the contrary). All this lends more credence to the theory that the prophesy wasn't indicating he could beat the two Zaoldeycks.

like aizen said once before it is harder to step on an ant and not crush it than just crushing it. he held back too much so he got beat up for his inability to gauge his opponents ability correctly.

Conjecture. Where's the indications he hold back, after he closed the book? And even if he did, what says he didn't play because he knew he wasn't going to die? Instead of imagining things to explain why he seemingly got beaten as if he was weaker...not just go for Ocams' razor and view as most likely that he got beaten up *because* he was weaker (than both of them together)? That would be the most logical thing to do.

maybe or maybe he would have just fought them both to pass the time and left when it was time for his plan to go or just fought and crushed them. those are all the posibilities anyways.

Yes, but we're not going for all possibilities here, but for that what is *most likely*. As said before: ALL is 'possible' in hxh (unless directly stated in the guidebook or canon), but that means you can't discus anything sensible if you keep it at the 'it's possible' level. What matters is, what is most likely. Given two opinions on what is 'possible' in a discussion, the most likely possibilty has the most weight as argument.

now that i hopefully have clarified the confusion between you two, stop making long posts that just go around the subject and lead to the middle of nowhere.

We were going somewhere. Slowely. But also 'thoughtfully'. I prefer this way, with reckoner, than just unfounded posts claiming whatever they want without making the trouble of argumenting anything.

it's not an invalid assumption, it is what the other poster said (or at least what i understood from those huge posts you guys like to annoy me with)

i just simplified them by cutting all the logic and overanalizing babble out.

You got that right. :amuse :P

lucifer was certain that he was either going to win or that the assasins will have to retreat or in the worst case scenario (time running out) the fight would be cancelled but like you said lucifer already had info on the assasins and decided to pass the time. you don't do that if you know the enemy is stronger than you and already have info on their abilities. you stay and pass the time with 2 top assasins ready to kill you because you don't consider them a threat at all.

He didn't know all the abilities of all the assassins.
We can only assume he didn't see anyone as a threat after he heard the prophesy. If not, he would be a fool, because NO-ONE thinks he can beat a whole bunch of top-assassins without having ANY risk to ones' own life.

I'll substantiate my claim (something you never do). We've all seen the page where it's explained to Killua how one is never sure to win against an oponent, whether he seems more powerful or not. That's because there are a huge amount of variables, and person B, who is much weaker than A, could still beat A if things are favorable for him. This is canon. In fact, EVERY person much weaker than A could potentially beat A, except (let's say) F, who was so utterly weak, his max didn't overlap A's minimum.

This means that the theory that Kuroro was 'sure' to win against the two assassins (certainly before he knew of the prophesy) is UTTER BS. Because that would imply either one of two things:

1)He was a fool, not knowing how the nen-system/levels work, and which variables can influence it (making it impossible to know for sure one is going to win).

2)Or, he was *SO* Uber-powerful that his minimum wasn't overlapped by even Zeno's maximum. Zeno, who is, let us remind us, a top-tier nen-fighter and killer, one of the strongest out there.

And not only that, but he would be sure to win against ANOTHER top-tier nen-assassin, Silva. So his minimum level even surpassed the maximum level of two top-tier nen-assassins, because that's the only way to be really sure he'd win, as you say.

If one can't see that that is complete BS, then you're totally blind, especially in the 'using logic' departement. Even if one were stupid enough to consider this a viable possibility, it is FAR less likely than to just assume his proclaimed certainty he wasn't going to die was due to the prophesy, not because of him being sure to beat the two Zoaldyecks.

Strangely enough, some people seem to cling to the less logical assumption, based on...well, personal preference, I suppose. Certainly not choosing the most logical and likely.

it was never said if silva fought kuroro before. he just knew of his hatsu.

also, even though silva came back pretty beat up, he still killed the ryodan member.

It's difficult to interpret that. We've seen a flashback that suggests Silva did meet (and probably fought) with kuroro before. But did he? Was it training? Difficult to say. It has little relevance to the question at hand, however.
And yes, he killed the ryodan. The GR are all very good nen-fighters, some of which (as Feitan has shown) are to be considered top-tier too. We don't know who he killed (though I seem to remember two members being mentionned; nr4 (by hisoka) and nr6?). Anway it's impossible to say WHO he killed and HOW strong he was....only that all GR are strong, and that he seemed a little roughed up, but also not that much (he wasn't shred to pieces and limping, now, was he?)...and he DID kill the GR.

If anything, this substantiates even further the claim Silva is top-tier too, which is important seen my earlier argument.

Good point, fireball.

that was just one of the run of the mill members, imagine what would happen if it was lucifer. silva is much weaker than lucifer, so much so that he warned zeno to not fool around wit hlucifer when the fight started

Unfounded speculation; see above.

All that means is that Silva is smart enough to give credit where credit is due. Doesn't mean he's a leagues below the leader.

Right. He's not as petty as to denigrate other capable nen-fighters; if he sees competence, he'll compliment it. We can already see that in his first comment about the GR, when he killed that member, which Killua tells as a backflash ('my dad meant it as a compliment'). No one is doubting Kuroro is a formidable adversary, not even Silva or Zeno.

To infer that a warning to and for Zeno is a confession of himself being weaker, is nonsensical.

I can't be bothered making up page long posts this time over, but I never said Kuroro would beat Zeno and Silva simulatenously. This is what I said.

I've noted it. :wink It would depend a bit on what you mean by 'taking on'...I don't believe he could ever handle them both for a long period of time. But he's strong enough to hold out for some time (as we've seen), agreed.

i know what you are saying, i'm just saying you are wrong.

If you don't substantiate that with facts and logical arguments, that claim holds no weight. "You are wrong" is no argument, not even if you say it. smile-big

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised at least some can see the logic in my arguments. And some have other viewpoints but try to debate it in the same sensible way. And then...you have the rest, who don't bother to argument anything. :P