What If?...Sarutobi lost? Oro and co. vs PreSkip Konoha

[masamune1]

Taking the view that Hiruzen was the victor of the fight between himself and his fallen student, since in the end he was fighting to save his village and succeeded, dying as a result of his own Jutsu, what would have happened to Konoha had he failed?

In other words, either Sarutobi's shiki Fujin failed to work, or he never had it in the first place. As a result, he was unable to kill the zombie Hokage's or Orochimaru, dyin as Oro had planned him to die, rather than on his own terms.

Naruto defeats Shukaku, and the Leaf Ninja stage a succesful counter-offensive against the invading Sand and Sound. But Orochimaru, the Sound 4,Kabuto and the Kage's then enter the fight, along with whatever remnants of the enemy forces are still alive (Baki should be part of the fight).

So, the battle turns out like this:

Team Sound

Orochimaru
Sound 4
Zombie Hashirama
Zombie Tobimara
Kabuto
Baki
Fodder Sound and Sand

(For Scenario 1- Temari, Kankuro and Gaara have all left the battlefield, returning to the Sand. They are not involved, and Gaara anyway has just been beaten).

Team Leaf

Everyone still left standing after the initial fighting and the Chuunin Exams- Gai and Kakashi probably being the first guys Orochimaru sees.
Jiraiya will help out, except in scenario 2. Asuma, realising that his father is dead, will probably go straight for his killer.

Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Shikamaru etc. can all fight if they choose, but they are also still tired from their fights. They can still help if they choose to, but that does mean they are in any condition to do so. They may be better off protecting the civilians saved by Iruka and co., assuming they can find them. That is their choice. Whether Naruto can go Kyuubi (KN0- (maybe) KN1), and whether that will make a difference, is open for debate.

Konoha has vastly superior numbers, but they also need to protect the ordinary villagers (who may also choose to fight, if it doses any good).

Scenario 1

Jiraiya helps out Team Leaf

Scenario 2

As per Orochimaru's original plan, Jiraiya was never there in the Leaf. As such, the Snake's summone by the Sand Ninja are still raising hell. Remember that Orochimaru should be able to summon more such snakes on his own, or bigger.

In this scenario, Naruto's Seal was broken by Sarutobi, Ebisu bbringing it to his attention. Naruto improved, but his training came from Ebisu and not Jiraiya. He still managed to beat Neji, but with more difficulty.
He lost against Gaara, who is coming for the Leaf.


Rules

-Characters are not limited to what they have shown, but to what they could feasibly do at the time, or showed after the time-skip if they presumably possessed said abilities then. Orochimaru, for example, should know at least some Elemental Jutus that he has not yet shown, and Kakashi has use of his 1,000 Jutsu. But Kakashi cannot use MS, and is physically as he was pre-skip.

-Orochimaru's goal is to destroy the Leaf. As such, even if Jiraiya can match or even beat him, if in the end most of the village is destroyed as a result of their fighting then Oro has technically won (unless he dies, then it is a tie or a Leaf pyhric victory). Team Sound can choose to flee if they judge the situation lost.

-Everyone is in-character as they were at this point in the Manga.
No bloodlust, except for characters who are normally bloodlusted. Konoha is fighting for it's life, Team Sound fighting for Oro and for fun (except for the Sand).

So, how does this go down?

[Rescuebear]

If Jiraiya is there they would win. If not then there chances are slim.
I will edit 2morrow

[masamune1]

If Jiraiya is there they would win. If not then there chances are slim.
I will edit 2morrow

But if Jiraiya is there, he and Oro's inevitable fight might end up destroying the palce. That would count as an Oro victory ultimately, since the end of the Leaf is his main objective.

He probably does'nt even need to destroy it to make it weak enough that a new Ninja War will start, which is what he's after. Just smash up a few buildings and kill a few jounin and Konoha's power is broken. The other villages will pounce, and chaos will ensue. Jiraiya can stop Oro, but can he do it without smashing up his hometown?

[iander]

I think Jiraiya would have been able to make Oro retreat. Konoha would have taken slightly more damage than before but I dont think it would create a shinobi war. Keep in mind Pain and Jiraiya fought in the rain village and only destroyed one or so buildings. I dont think either of them would necessarily use anything that would level a block of Konoha. Scenario 2, um Konoha is screwed. Oro is very powerful but the fact that he would be covered by two villages and Gaara as well would give them victory.

[maximilyan]

oro and co would lose because oro would be worn out as well as the sound for since they held that barier for some time.

[Gspot]

Oro would've retreated against Jiraiya in that weakened, armless state. Trying anything otherwise against a healthy, ready Jiraiya would've spelled death for him and his four minions. Really, the only reason Jiriaya didn't step in and fight Oro/save Sarutobi was because of "PnJ". The story happened the way it happened.

[masamune1]

I think Jiraiya would have been able to make Oro retreat. Konoha would have taken slightly more damage than before but I dont think it would create a shinobi war. Keep in mind Pain and Jiraiya fought in the rain village and only destroyed one or so buildings. I dont think either of them would necessarily use anything that would level a block of Konoha. Scenario 2, um Konoha is screwed. Oro is very powerful but the fact that he would be covered by two villages and Gaara as well would give them victory.

The Summons that they used were smaller than the ones that either Oro or Jiraiya can bring out. Also, the RAin is a village of Skyscrapers- Konoha is mostly small buildings- the Hokage HQ looks like it has only 3 or 4 stories- which can be far more easily crushed.

Either Pain nor Jiraiya were out to crush the Rain village in that fight- both, in fact, would probably have went out of their way to avoid it if they could. Oro is out for destruction- he will gladly turn this into a high-level battle that tears the village apart, because that is exacty what he is after.

oro and co would lose because oro would be worn out as well as the sound for since they held that barier for some time.

Oro barely did anything in that fight apart from taking on Sarutobi hand2hand and with the Kusanagi, and directing the two zombies. He should be in perfectly decent health. The Sound 4 would be more tired, but they appeared to be okay regardless and, anyway, the Curse Seal works by drawing on Chakra reserves. Both Sasuke and Naruto did a hell of a lot more work than the Sound 4 and they still had enough to go against Gaara, of all people.

And then there are the zombie Hokages.

Whom you are both forgetting.

Who cannot die, and won't go away even if Oro is killed.

What is anyone going to do against them?

And what are people going to do if he summons Manda, or more big snakes? The big snakes that shrugged off exploding kunai, and that Jiraiya alone seemed capable of stopping? Remember, Oro is out only to smash the village up.

Oro would've retreated against Jiraiya in that weakened, armless state. Trying anything otherwise against a healthy, ready Jiraiya would've spelled death for him and his four minions. Really, the only reason Jiriaya didn't step in and fight Oro/save Sarutobi was because of "PnJ". The story happened the way it happened.

Oro is not armless in either scenario. Both assume that Sarutobi did'nt summon the Death God, or summoned it but was killed before he could use it.
This is imaging that Oro's plan worked out as...well, planned.

[Roland]

I have a very small question that throws the whole scenario into a somewhat angular view. Wouldn't the Zombie Hokages be able to solo the entire village, since there's no way to stop them from reforming and coming back? No one besides Sarutobi had a sealing technique to such a degree that would seal someone's soul inside the Shinigami. Without that, I can't see a way that Konoha would defend against the revived Hokages let alone the rest of Orochimaru's forces.

Scenario 2 is simply absurd, since Konoha would likely have been destroyed without Jiraiya even if Orochimaru had his arms sealed. Adding in Gaara, who would've defeated Naruto and now be in Shukaku mode, means that Konoha is getting smashed and destroyed rather quickly.

[masamune1]

I have a very small question that throws the whole scenario into a somewhat angular view. Wouldn't the Zombie Hokages be able to solo the entire village, since there's no way to stop them from reforming and coming back? No one besides Sarutobi had a sealing technique to such a degree that would seal someone's soul inside the Shinigami. Without that, I can't see a way that Konoha would defend against the revived Hokages let alone the rest of Orochimaru's forces.

Scenario 2 is simply absurd, since Konoha would likely have been destroyed without Jiraiya even if Orochimaru had his arms sealed. Adding in Gaara, who would've defeated Naruto and now be in Shukaku mode, means that Konoha is getting smashed and destroyed rather quickly.

There are a bunch of theoretical ways to defeat the Hokages. Summon them away from the village somehow, use a lesser sealing technique (might slow them down, at least), or perhaps they die when they run out of Chakra (which would expalin why Oro does'nt make of them on a more regular basis). There may be other means. Also, whilst killing Oro apparently does'nt get rid of the Hokage's, he was clearly controlling them and so killing him might stop them from causing any more trouble.

All in theory, but I did stipulate in this thread that such things are allowed (sort of).

As for Gaara, well firstly since Naruto did'nt get any Jiraiya training, and fought a harder battle against Neji than he did originally, you could argue that Gaara does'nt go full Shukaku mode in scenario 2, because killing Naruto was easier than that (he apparently did'nt plan on doing it originally, even if the Sand planned it for him). Even if he did turn into it, remember than waking him up/ killing him would get rid of the thing, and whilst this would be hard without big-ass summons it is not impossible for some of the higher-tier ninja to- possibly-pull off such a feat.

But I admit that this is kind of an Oro appreciation thread. I was just thinking about his attack and I realised- not for the first time- that he really had what it took to pull it off, that his plan would have worked if not for those tiny little kicks. I made this thread to test out that analysis. But more interesting than that- you, RolandAlderas, you are the first person to agree with that. All other posters before you think Konoha would still have won.

[dandyman]

If Jiriaya is there Konoha wins. Without him I can't see anyone winning against Orochimaru and Edo Tensei -summons.

[masamune1]

If Jiriaya is there Konoha wins. Without him I can't see anyone winning against Orochimaru and Edo Tensei -summons.

Can Jiraiya beat Oro without causing significant damage to the village?
Which, remember, is Oro's ultimate goal here.

[Cochise]

If the situation is that Orochimaru wins and keeps Edo Tensei active, then not even Jiraiya could have turned that back. The Sound/Sand had an invasion force, not fodder. They were prepared and could have won.

[dandyman]

Can Jiraiya beat Oro without causing significant damage to the village?
Which, remember, is Oro's ultimate goal here.
Well that's a bit harder. He can succeed in that if other Konoha nins buy some time fighting Orochimaru and his troops while Jiriaya prepares HM and Frog Song. FS would pretty much destroy Orochimaru and all of his troops close to him.

[masamune1]

If the situation is that Orochimaru wins and keeps Edo Tensei active, then not even Jiraiya could have turned that back. The Sound/Sand had an invasion force, not fodder. They were prepared and could have won.

Most of the invasion force was defeated by Konoha, who only delaye to ensure the safety of the civilians first. If Oro defeated Sarutobi, he would have found the majority of his forces on the run.

But even with that, he could have achieved his goals.

Well that's a bit harder. He can succeed in that if other Konoha nins buy some time fighting Orochimaru and his troops while Jiriaya prepares HM and Frog Song. FS would pretty much destroy Orochimaru and all of his troops close to him.

Jiraiya does'nt know about the Frog Song. He only found out in the Pain fight. The Sages are unlikely to bring it up since Ma Toad does'nt like using it, and they only used it against Pain because Ninjutsu and Taijutsu wee'nt working against him.

Oro possibly knows about HM mode, so at the very least he will have a good idea of what he's up against, and therefore may have some strategies to defeat it, or if not that top Jiraiya from using it. And Jiraiya is'nt likely to bring that out against Oro right away.

And, in theory at least, there is the risk that the Frog Song works on everyone who hears it, and is'nt targeted at anyone in particular. It carries the risk, then, that Jiraiya might KO everyone in earshot, inc. those on his side.

[dandyman]

Jiraiya does'nt know about the Frog Song. He only found out in the Pain fight. The Sages are unlikely to bring it up since Ma Toad does'nt like using it, and they only used it against Pain because Ninjutsu and Taijutsu wee'nt working against him.

Taijutsu and Ninjutsu might not work against Orochimaru. Well, Oro might not be able to tank that giant rasengan but otherwise they are probably going to use FS.

Oro possibly knows about HM mode, so at the very least he will have a good idea of what he's up against, and therefore may have some strategies to defeat it, or if not that top Jiraiya from using it. And Jiraiya is'nt likely to bring that out against Oro right away.

Jiraiya knows how strong Oro is and imo is gonna go to HM as fast as possible to end the battle quickly. I doubt Orochimaru knows about HM and even if he did he can't stop Jiraiya from using it because of other Konoha nins stopping him. And there's no way Orochimaru know about Frog Song so he's going to get certainly hit.


And, in theory at least, there is the risk that the Frog Song works on everyone who hears it, and is'nt targeted at anyone in particular. It carries the risk, then, that Jiraiya might KO everyone in earshot, inc. those on his side.
I don't believe those swords were part of the Frog Song. They were most likely some of J-man's jutsu. So even though he would paralyze everyone near him Jiraiya would just finish Orochimaru and his troops.

[Itachi's Apprentice 3]

I think that Orochimaru would lose due to Jiraiya being as skilled if not more skilled than Orochimaru. Without Jiraiya the village would be destroyed though.

[Jeαnne]

now thats a good thread :LOS

[masamune1]

Taijutsu and Ninjutsu might not work against Orochimaru. Well, Oro might not be able to tank that giant rasengan but otherwise they are probably going to use FS.

Taijutsu and Ninjutsu won't be as useless against Oro as they were against Pain, who can absorb Ninjutsu and with Rin'nengan-inspired teamwork outmatch Jiraiya's Taijutsu.

Oro and Jiraiya are more evenly matched, excpet that Oro probably knows more, whilst Jiraiya seems more the type to perfect the ones he specialises in (a case of Quantity versus Quality). Oro, according to the Stats at least (which count in this thread) is also a master of Genjutsu, certainly better than Jiraiya at least.

Jiraiya knows how strong Oro is and imo is gonna go to HM as fast as possible to end the battle quickly. I doubt Orochimaru knows about HM and even if he did he can't stop Jiraiya from using it because of other Konoha nins stopping him. And there's no way Orochimaru know about Frog Song so he's going to get certainly hit.

Jiraiya knew how strong Pain was too (he just did'nt know why), probably knew that he was stronger than either himself or Oro (whom he was previously boss of) since he killed Hanzou, and in such brutal fashion.

The other Konoha nin's are

(a) Scare shitless of Oro (Preskip Kakashi, the top Jounin, thought taking him on was suicide), and

(b) Have to fight the Sound 4, Kabuto, Baki, any more Snakes Oro summons and two invinciblel zombie Hokages

The Frog Song will not be used except as a last resort by the old sages. HM will not be used except as a last resort by Jiraiya- it take a while, and he does'nt start matches with it. Everyone is in-character here. Also just being faster and stronger than Orochimaru probably is'nt enough to give him an easy victory (which is'nt to say he won't win)- Oro has bags of dirty tricks up his sleeve.

ORo will probably try and turn this into a Summoning battle, and Jiraiya will probably have to oblige. Hermit Mode might be able to deal with smaller summons, like Pain used, but if Oro brings out big one, or even Manda, I doubt it will be that effective.

I don't believe those swords were part of the Frog Song. They were most likely some of J-man's jutsu. So even though he would paralyze everyone near him Jiraiya would just finish Orochimaru and his troops.

But paralysing everyone near him is not a very good strategy, if half of these guys are supposed to be on his side. If even one enemy manages to slip away (and whether we think that Jiraiya can take this guy, Jiraiya is unlikely to take this risk) if they can distract/ injure/ kill him and get their comrades up then the enem will find themselves surrounded by unconscious jounin, making their job that much easier.

The Frog Song takes a while to be effective, and whilst doing it Jiraiya and the toads need to be some safe distance from the enemy, as they were against Pain (hiding in the tunnels, making it harder to track their sounds).
That is a lot trickier in Konoha, particularly a Konoha that has turned into a violent bloodbath.

And the Song would be useless against the two Hokages, since even if it worked, they still could'nt be killed and when they woke up they would just keep on fighting. Shodai, anyway, has his Darkness Genjutsu that could make it easier to stop the song, and anyone else.

[Creator]

All the Jounins and Jiraiya? Right, Konoha will struggle. :wink

Not to mention the Chunnins were about to go back out and help. :nod

[littlebeep]

If Jiraya comes out to play, the village is indeed destroyed, as Oro can summon Manda without the risk of not having corpses ready to pay him. Even if Gamabunta kills the big guy and Jiraya beats Oro, we're looking at the exam arena and a lot of the town being gone, and hundreds of civilians crushed or drowned by Water Bullets (Jiraya won't even think of using his AOE Katon). I think Oro also beats Jiraya in a one-on-one fight, but that's not the end of the story.

Kakashi may have been terrified fighting Oro alone, but with Gai and Asuma by his side he may give it a try. The Leaf also has Hiashi, god of Byakugan, and the fathers of Team 10. I can see Shikamaru's father grabbing Oro while Hiashi seals him, or Kabuto getting stomped by a thirty-foot Jounin. Once Oro's foot soldiers are removed, the Leaf can take this.

Of course, if Jiraya wasn't there, the Leaf gets stomped.

[Darth]

kakashi and gai hold down oro while the sound 4 get obliterated by the rest of the konoha elite jounin (asuma, Kurenai, etc..)

baki runs away

jiraya shows up and together, gai, kakashi, and jiraya take down oro once and for all...

losing oro's arms saved his life...

but is it that there's always a ridiculously powerful ninja that wants to destroy konoha.. what did konoha ever do to them???

[gfwspacezilla]

Taking the view that Hiruzen was the victor of the fight between himself and his fallen student, since in the end he was fighting to save his village and succeeded, dying as a result of his own Jutsu, what would have happened to Konoha had he failed?

In other words, either Sarutobi's shiki Fujin failed to work, or he never had it in the first place. As a result, he was unable to kill the zombie Hokage's or Orochimaru, dyin as Oro had planned him to die, rather than on his own terms.

Naruto defeats Shukaku, and the Leaf Ninja stage a succesful counter-offensive against the invading Sand and Sound. But Orochimaru, the Sound 4,Kabuto and the Kage's then enter the fight, along with whatever remnants of the enemy forces are still alive (Baki should be part of the fight).

So, the battle turns out like this:

Team Sound

Orochimaru
Sound 4
Zombie Hashirama
Zombie Tobimara
Kabuto
Baki
Fodder Sound and Sand

(For Scenario 1- Temari, Kankuro and Gaara have all left the battlefield, returning to the Sand. They are not involved, and Gaara anyway has just been beaten).

Team Leaf

Everyone still left standing after the initial fighting and the Chuunin Exams- Gai and Kakashi probably being the first guys Orochimaru sees.
Jiraiya will help out, except in scenario 2. Asuma, realising that his father is dead, will probably go straight for his killer.

Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Shikamaru etc. can all fight if they choose, but they are also still tired from their fights. They can still help if they choose to, but that does mean they are in any condition to do so. They may be better off protecting the civilians saved by Iruka and co., assuming they can find them. That is their choice. Whether Naruto can go Kyuubi (KN0- (maybe) KN1), and whether that will make a difference, is open for debate.

Konoha has vastly superior numbers, but they also need to protect the ordinary villagers (who may also choose to fight, if it doses any good).

Scenario 1

Jiraiya helps out Team Leaf

Well, I think Orichamaru may be able to take him down If he brings out 1 Zombie Hokage and fights with him. the other one could go around helping the fodder sand and sound. kabuto might take on Gai and Kakashi and be beaten. the sound 4 wil ltake out Naruto and the gang. Also, Once Orichamaru Has defeaten Jiriya he may be able to summon some more snakes. Asuma foolishly goes to take on Orichamaru and gets beaten. by now Oro is Quite Tired. Mean while Baki Finally gets taken down by Being sorrounded by Jounins. Gai and Kakshi take on oro And using 6 gates Gai Manges to do some serious damage to Oroichamaru. kakashi is then able to take him down with a Chidori. The remaining snaes are taken ou as are Oro's forces but only barely.

Scenario 2

As per Orochimaru's original plan, Jiraiya was never there in the Leaf. As such, the Snake's summone by the Sand Ninja are still raising hell. Remember that Orochimaru should be able to summon more such snakes on his own, or bigger.

In this scenario, Naruto's Seal was broken by Sarutobi, Ebisu bbringing it to his attention. Naruto improved, but his training came from Ebisu and not Jiraiya. He still managed to beat Neji, but with more difficulty.
He lost against Gaara, who is coming for the Leaf.

Oh this is bad for konoha.Oro Goes off Wasting some Ninja's while the sound 4 are taken out by some Jounins. then Gaara comes and the shit hits the fan. Kbuto is taken out by Kakshi. Gai and Kakashi try and Beat Gaara But he goes Into the sleep mode and the Shukakau murders them. The remaining Konoha Chuunin are taken out by the remaining Sound and Sand,the shukaku,Oro, and the snakes.


Rules

-Characters are not limited to what they have shown, but to what they could feasibly do at the time, or showed after the time-skip if they presumably possessed said abilities then. Orochimaru, for example, should know at least some Elemental Jutus that he has not yet shown, and Kakashi has use of his 1,000 Jutsu. But Kakashi cannot use MS, and is physically as he was pre-skip.

-Orochimaru's goal is to destroy the Leaf. As such, even if Jiraiya can match or even beat him, if in the end most of the village is destroyed as a result of their fighting then Oro has technically won (unless he dies, then it is a tie or a Leaf pyhric victory). Team Sound can choose to flee if they judge the situation lost.

-Everyone is in-character as they were at this point in the Manga.
No bloodlust, except for characters who are normally bloodlusted. Konoha is fighting for it's life, Team Sound fighting for Oro and for fun (except for the Sand).

So, how does this go down?

My thoughts In Bold

EDIT: Itachi Appearing out of nowhere {as in my first version} what the hell was i thinking about?