Israel: The prisoner exchange deal's outcome

[Amphitryon]

From "Captive's families devastated at footage of coffins (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3568869,00.html)".
Captives' families devastated at footage of coffins

Regev, Goldwasser family members break down after seeing images of loved ones' coffins turned over to Israel; said to identify remains later Wednesday, hold ceremony at northern IDF Shraga's Base

Hagai Einav
Latest Update: 07.16.08, 10:43 / Israel News

After two years of holding out hope the worst has happened: Cries of horror sounded at the Regev and Goldwasser homes Wednesday, as family members witnessed the TV broadcast of the prisoner exchange, in which the coffins of Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser were shown being turned over to the Red Cross.



The prisoner exchange deal between Israel and Hizbullah began at 9 am at the Israel-Lebanon border crossing at Rosh Hanikra.

Eldad Regev's aunt, Hanna, collapsed upon seeing the images of her nephew's coffin and was attended to by Magen David Adom paramedics, which were standing by.



Many Family members and friends of Eldad'd flocked to the family's home, once the news confirming he was dead began to spread. The visitors held and impromptu vigil outside the residence, lighting numerous memorial candles.



Earlier, the Goldwasser residence in Nahariya was packed full of reporters since the early hours of the morning. "We're waiting for this saga to end, Shlomo Goldwasser, Udi's father, told them earlier."This will all be over in a few hours and that would be the biggest win, for us and for the people of Israel."



The families, he added, had no information regarding the captives' situation: "If (Hizbullah Chief Sheikh Hassan) Nasrallah's greatest achievement is keeping us in the dark, than he can have it and as many like that as he wants. If he considered uncertainty as an achievement than I pity both him and the Lebanese people."



As for the fact the as part of the prisoner exchange deal, Israel will have to set Samir Kuntar free, Goldwasser said that "it's important to me that the Lebanese people understand what they've sacrificed and for what.



"They've lost some 800 men and their entire economy (in the Second Lebanon War) and for what? For someone who killed a four-year-old? Can someone like that be called a hero? He's nothing more that a bastard. I hope he doesn’t sleep at all tonight," he added.



"I wasn’t prepared for the part of 'captive's father.' Shlomo Goldwasser said, trying to sum up the experience of the last two year. "We dealt with it as best we could, mustering whatever strength we could. No matter the outcome I am Udi's father and Miki is his mother. Kidnapped or not, that will never change."



Friend of IDF captive Eldad Regev flocked to the Regev residence in Kiryat Motzkin Wednesday morning, eagerly awaiting news.

Eyal Regev, Eldad's brother, told the scores of reporters that the family was "aware of all the security and medical assessments, which presume his brother in no longer alive.



"With all the immense pain involved in making this prisoner exchange deal, I'm proud of this country. Israel should be proud of the decision to bring Udi and Eldad back. We're paying a high price for them."



Shai Shenkman, one of Eldad's friends, told Ynet that "we feel a certain amount of satisfaction as the fact that the public pressure ran its course and after two long years the decision makers finally woke up and made sure Udi and Eldad will come home."

Please discuss, I'll post my opinion later on when I see what you have to say about this.

[Miracle Sun]

Oh, I was wondering why the story had a near complete lack of a non-Israeli perspective, and then I checked the source. Other than noting the obvious bias, I would just try to correct Goldwasser's claims.

I remember reading this in an article shortly after Israel completed it's total onslaught on the Lebanese people (civilians mainly), but the attack itself had been planned, or at the very least discussed, a number of months before the actual "war." The capture of the Israeli soldiers was just a convenient excuse (and a poor excuse at that). I need to find that article.
But I understand. The man is an Israeli and is mouring the loss of his child. Even though his statements are predicated on faulty information, I understand how devastating it must be to lose a family member.

[Amphitryon]

Oh, I was wondering why the story had a near complete lack of a non-Israeli perspective, and then I checked the source. Other than noting the obvious bias, I would just try to correct Goldwasser's claims.

I remember reading this in an article shortly after Israel completed it's total onslaught on the Lebanese people (civilians mainly), but the attack itself had been planned, or at the very least discussed, a number of months before the actual "war." The capture of the Israeli soldiers was just a convenient excuse (and a poor excuse at that). I need to find that article.
But I understand. The man is an Israeli and is mouring the loss of his child. Even though his statements are predicated on faulty information, I understand how devastating it must be to lose a family member.

Well, the title pretty much says it, but that was because I had no luck finding anything in other networks, just found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7508715.stm) at BBC.

I hope you know that soldiers were not the war's target, it was civilians who took part in a paramilitary organization. So saying "civilians mainly" has no meaning, if you said "innocent civilians mainly" (which I don't want to express my opinion on if this was the case or not right now), that would be something else.

[Baki]

Oh, I was wondering why the story had a near complete lack of a non-Israeli perspective, and then I checked the source. Other than noting the obvious bias, I would just try to correct Goldwasser's claims.

I remember reading this in an article shortly after Israel completed it's total onslaught on the Lebanese people (civilians mainly), but the attack itself had been planned, or at the very least discussed, a number of months before the actual "war." The capture of the Israeli soldiers was just a convenient excuse (and a poor excuse at that). I need to find that article.
But I understand. The man is an Israeli and is mouring the loss of his child. Even though his statements are predicated on faulty information, I understand how devastating it must be to lose a family member.

I love how you claim bias on a civilian interview article, and then claim Israel Slaughtered Civilians, a clearly controversial topic. Not only that, you then claim Israel planned the war and waited for a catalyst, with no proof/source.

This article has little to do with the war, and nothing to do with bias.

In my opinion, the main person to blame for the soldiers not coming back alive is Olmert. You wait and you wait, and you end up with a coffin discount.

[The_Unforgiven]

Wow, way to present both sides of the issue.

[Hisagi]

Geez :facepalm kind of saddening but seriously....

[SeventhDan]

I remember reading this in an article shortly after Israel completed it's total onslaught on the Lebanese people

You forget that the Lebanese people themselves have been under onslaught by Syria and their terrorist buddies. Stop such bias bull.

In my opinion, the main person to blame for the soldiers not coming back alive is Olmert. You wait and you wait, and you end up with a coffin discount.

Olmert is an idiot. Golda is crying in her grave for her nation, it's being led by cowards and idiots.

[Miracle Sun]

I hope you know that soldiers were not the war's target, it was civilians who took part in a paramilitary organization. So saying "civilians mainly" has no meaning, if you said "innocent civilians mainly" (which I don't want to express my opinion on if this was the case or not right now), that would be something else.

Lebanon barely has a military to speak of. They do have one, but it is not very large, and it is made up of all the disparate groups within Lebanese society (Sunni, Shia, Druze, Christians, etc.), who are probably all prone to factionalization at the first hint of serious civil conflict.
Anyway, the claim is that Israel was at war with Hizbollah, and that the members of Hizbollah's militaristic arm were firing rockets into Israel and then hiding amongst the civilian population. Let's take that questionable statement as fact, despite the fact that there is no evidence (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/09/06/isrlpa16781.htm). Say there is a building, with an estimated 50-100 civilians in it. You are at war with a group, and you feel that there have been attacks coming from the general area of this building, and you have reason to believe there may be up to ten members of this group hiding in that particular building. Do you bomb the building, and consider the civilians "collateral damage?"

Anyway, it is well known and documented that nearly one thousand Lebanese were killed during the Israeli attack on Lebanon, and that the vast majority were civilians (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/09/06/isrlpa16781.htm).

I love how you claim bias on a civilian interview article, and then claim Israel Slaughtered Civilians, a clearly controversial topic. Not only that, you then claim Israel planned the war and waited for a catalyst, with no proof/source.I never said "Israel Slaughtered Civilians." (Even though they did). And here is the evidence (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/mar/09/syria.israelandthepalestinians) , where Prime Minister Ehud Olmert admits that Israel had planned for the Lebanon war months in advance.
I agree with you that Olmert is largely to blamed for the soldiers not coming back alive, though.

You forget that the Lebanese people themselves have been under onslaught by Syria and their terrorist buddies. Stop such bias bull.You're equivocating between use of the word onslaught. The Syrians, firstly, were not entirely unwelcome in Lebanon (let's not forget that Lebanon used to be a part of Syria), and that even still, the Syrians weren't exactly bombing civilians. :LOS
And who are you referring to when you say "terrorist buddies?"

[Jin-E]

The Lebanese celebrating the release of a murderer who bashed in the skull of a 3 year child? Lol, some hero indeed.

[AbnormallyNormal]

it seems a little bit unfair, israel only gets remains of corpses, and hezbollah gets perfectly alive and healthy adult terrorists? wtf is this bullshit

[Megaharrison]

The nation of Lebanon was truly sickening today, and all Lebanese who support Hezbollah and/or the Lebanese government should be ashamed of themselves. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" has a limit. Kuntar didn't kill Israeli soldiers, he didn't resist the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. He went into a house and shot a father, then smashed his daughters head on a rock with the butt of his AK-47. Few nations in the world would find that to be heroic, but apparently Lebanon does.

Lebanon has treated a "man" who smashed a 4 year old girl head on a rock as a hero. He has been elevated to rock-star status for something that would bring life in prison in most countries. He wasn't just greeted by Hezbollah either. Lebanese Prime Minister Fahoud Sinora was also there, declaring a national holiday. This is the man Europe and America have declared as "moderate" and "pro-western". If a moderate Lebanese man declares a national holiday over baby-killers, I don't want to see their extremists.

And I know what people will say: BUT ISRAEL HAS KILLED CHILDREN! YOU BOMBED QANA!. And indeed we did. But I will only say this: there is an enormous physical, moral, and psychological difference between accidentally bombing a building with civilians in it and smashing a babies head in with your gun. I know this, you this, spare us all the trouble and don't try to argue with it.

Also all Lebanese should ask themselves: was this worth it? Were 1,200 Lebanese lives and the devastation of your cities worth the return of a baby killer? Just what the fuck is Hezbollah doing? How exactly is this "Resisting the Zionist occupier"? Shouldn't anyone who murders a 4 year old girl like this go to prison? Are people who murder babies heroes as long as the baby is Israeli? If you don't agree with what I just said, what the fuck is wrong with you?

For my own country, it is extremely difficult for foreigners to see exactly why Israel would agree to this deal, why we would release a child murderer. This (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330996531&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) article attempts to go into it, and I find much of it to be true. That being said, this is idiotic on the part of Olmert. It is true that Olmert did no real material damage, Kuntar is a simple child murderer and isn't any more dangerous then your run of the mill nutjob with an AK-47. But Hezbollah will trumpet this as a propaganda victory for years to come. And for the victory-desperate Islamic world, they will eat it all up and drag themselves into further and ultimately futile wars with Israel.

And as for Hezbollah, they got their child murderer back. But remember that 500 to 700 of your highly trained fighters died to release a guy who crushed the skull of a baby girl. Remember that the Israeli economy grew more then it had in a decade just months after your rockets fell on our cities. Israel is far from destroyed or defeated, this was just a prisoner exchange. A child murderer and 4 pieces of cannon fodder have been gained, nothing more. WW2 rockets and kidnappings don't destroy countries, the type of devastation Israel wrought on Lebanon is what destroys countries. Remember that the IDF has undergone intense reforms from a war it didn't even outright lose. Remember that your fearless leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has been hiding in his bunker for years, despite the "divine victory" he supposedly won against Israel.

Also remember that your most skilled military commander, Imad Mughniyeh, was blown to bits in Damascus. In 2008 Hezbollah may of gotten its baby-killer, but we got its best commander.

And for anyone who still admires Hezbollah for celebrating a guy who bashed in the brains of a 4 year old girl (yes I am repeating this over and over, so it sinks in), take a long hard look at yourself and seek help.

Lebanon can now celebrate that their baby-killer has been returned to them, but it should also reflect on what it cost them. Thousands of lives, the devastation of their country, billions in reconstruction, and today Lebanon has taken a new casualty: its national dignity.

Lastly for anyone who may try to gloat for Hezbollah here. Remember what Samir Kuntar did and the price Lebanon paid for his return. That would take away any satisfaction from a civilized human being.

[Jin-E]

The nation of Lebanon was truly sickening today, and all Lebanese who support Hezbollah and/or the Lebanese government should be ashamed of themselves. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" has a limit. Kuntar didn't kill Israeli soldiers, he didn't resist the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. He went into a house and shot a father, then smashed his daughters head on a rock with the butt of his AK-47. Few nations in the world would find that to be heroic, but apparently Lebanon does.

Lebanon has treated a "man" who smashed a 4 year old girl head on a rock as a hero. He has been elevated to rock-star status for something that would bring life in prison in most countries. He wasn't just greeted by Hezbollah either. Lebanese Prime Minister Fahoud Sinora was also there, declaring a national holiday. This is the main Europe and America has declared as "moderate". If a moderate Lebanese man declares a national holiday over baby-killers, I don't want to see their extremists.

Also all Lebanese should ask themselves: was this worth it? Were 1,200 Lebanese lives and the devastation of your cities worth the return of a baby killer? Just what the fuck is Hezbollah doing? How exactly this "Resisting the Zionist occupier? Shouldn't anyone who murders a 4 year old girl like this go to prison? Are people who murder babies heroes as long as the baby is Israeli? If you don't agree with what I just said, what the fuck is wrong with you?

For my own country, it is extremely difficult for foreigners to see exactly why Israel would agree to this deal, why we would release a child murderer. This (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330996531&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) article attempts to go into it, and I find much of it to be true. That being said, this is idiotic on the part of Olmert. It is true that Olmert did no real material damage, Kuntar is a simple child murderer and isn't any more dangerous then your run of the mill nutjob with an AK-47. But Hezbollah will trumpet this as a propaganda victory for years to come. And for the victory-desperate Islamic world, they will eat it all up and drag themselves into further and ultimately futile wars with Israel.

And as for Hezbollah, they got their child murderer back. But remember that 500 to 700 of your highly trained fighters died to release a guy who crushed the skull of a baby girl. Remember that the Israeli economy grew more then it had in a decade just month after your rockets fell on our cities. Israel is far from destroyed or defeated. WW2 rockets and kidnappings don't destroy countries, the type of devastation Israel wrought on Lebanon is what destroys countries. Remember that the IDF has undergone intense reforms from a war it didn't even outright lose. Remember that your fearless leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has been hiding in his bunker for years, despite the "divine victory" he supposedly won against Israel.

Also remember that your most skilled military commander, Imad Mughniyeh, was blown to bits in Damascus. In 2007 Hezbollah may of gotten its baby-killer, but we got its best commander.

And for anyone who still admires Hezbollah for celebrating a guy who bashed in the brains of a 4 year old girl (yes I am repeating this over and over, so it sinks in), take a long hard look at yourself and seek help.

Lebanon can now celebrate their baby-killer has been returned to them, but it should also reflect on what it cost them. Thousands of lives, the devastation of their country, billions in reconstruction, and today Lebanon has taken a new casualty: its national dignity.

This speaks for itself. Pretty much accurately displays my feelings to the letter.

I view everyone who celebrated today's event as despicable vermins. Israeli agressions and crimes doesnt justify this pathetic display of hatred and barbarism. It would have been a totally different case if the people released were honorable soldiers, not child murderers.

Compare how Israeli authorities reacted when Baruch Goldstein murdered those Palestinians in Hebron to how Sinora, Suleiman and Nabri treated this inhumane garbage as an "hero". It tells you a whole lot.:facepalm

I just hope Mossad create an "accident" that finishes off Kuntar for good.

[|)/-\\/\/|\|]

Well many and I can say most Lebanese really hate Qantar: You won't here such stuff in public, but this is how most of the Lebanese think. (http://www.ouwet.com/), only pro Hizbulla do honor him. I think no one really respect the guy they just did that for a propaganda "victory" purposes ... How can you truly respect him??

Most probably people were just there to show that they are actually "celebrating" victory even high officials are their so they are not labeled as "traitors". However they both seem like barbarians waiting for the 4 year old head crusher hero ...

It's a shame to see people celebrating the return of such murderer.

Still however, Israel "war" was mostly on Lebanon not on HA, targeting civilian targets and infrastructure will actually make Lebanon weaker and HA stronger, and I don't think Israel is that dump to notice that ... HA grew stronger after the war while Lebanon got devastated and screwed ... I'm starting to thing that Israel is on the HA side and they are both working to screw Lebanon. I mean all what HA do is "screw Lebanon" and bomb the shit out of it and all what Israel do is "screw Lebanon" and also bomb the holy shit out of it then they go have some peace talks with Syria, which is the actual controller of HA along with Iran ... this is really awkward.

[dummy plug]

there is nothing glorious about war :oh

[The_Unforgiven]

I know there is another thread, but the article there is very one-sided.

The leader of Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, has personally welcomed home five militants freed by Israel.

The Israelis handed over the prisoners, along with the remains of 200 Lebanese and Palestinian fighters, in exchange for the remains of two of soldiers.

The soldiers' capture in 2006 sparked a brief war between Israel and Hezbollah.

Greeting the returnees at a huge rally in Beirut, Sheikh Nasrallah said the "age of defeats" was over.


Hezbollah displayed coffins containing the bodies of the Israeli soldiers

Tens of thousands of Hezbollah supporters, some travelling by car or scooter, converged on the south of city to celebrate the prisoners' release and listen to Sheikh Nasrallah speak.

Earlier, Lebanese President Michel Suleiman and other politicians from across the country's religious and political divide greeted the five men at Beirut airport.

Fireworks lit up the night sky and the crowds waved yellow Hezbollah flags. Some threw rice as they mobbed the cars carrying the ex-prisoners to the rally in the city's southern suburbs, Hezbollah's stronghold.

The most prominent of the ex-prisoners is gunman Samir Qantar, jailed in 1979 for killing a four-year-old Israeli girl and two other people.

It is clear Hezbollah means to extract the maximum possible publicity from this event, the BBC's Crispin Thorold reports from the rally.

The release, which has caused so much pain in Israel, is being treated as a triumph in Lebanon, by supporters and opponents of Hezbollah alike, he adds.

Maximum publicity

The ex-prisoners crossed into Lebanon in an exchange mediated by the International Committee of the Red Cross.



Changing into combat fatigues, they stopped briefly in the coastal town of Naqoura before being flown to Beirut.

Sheikh Nasrallah's message, delivered in his first public appearance since September 2006, was that Lebanon could not be defeated.

He expressly linked the prisoners' release to "victory" over Israel in July 2006.

"The true, original and permanent identity of our region's peoples and our nation is that of resistance," he told the crowds.

"It is an identity of the will and culture of resistance and of the rejection of humiliation and occupation, regardless of who the occupiers, the tyrants and the powerful are."

Qantar also addressed the crowds, hailing Lebanon's "great Islamic resistance".


Hezbollah supporters converged on the south of the city

Under the exchange - the fruit of two years of delicate German mediation - Hezbollah is also to return the remains of Israeli soldiers killed in south Lebanon in 2006.

The agreement has caused controversy in Israel, with some ministers opposed to exchanging live Hezbollah prisoners for dead bodies.

Qantar controversy

Qantar had been in jail since 1979 for the deadly guerrilla raid in which he killed the child, her father and a policeman.


His imprisonment was arguably a catalyst for the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel, our correspondent says, as Lebanese militants captured the two Israeli soldiers to demand his release.

The Israeli soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, were seized in 2006 but until now there had been no confirmation of their deaths until Wednesday.

They are due to be given military funerals on Thursday.

Correspondents say the mood in Israel over the exchange of prisoners for the remains of dead soldiers is grim.

"Woe betide the people who celebrate the release of a beastly man who bludgeoned the skull of a four-year-old toddler," Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in a statement before he was due to meet the soldiers' families.

Hezbollah withheld any information about when the soldiers had died and never released pictures of them in captivity, leaving it unclear whether they had been killed in the original raid.

However, one Hezbollah official quoted by Lebanese TV on Wednesday confirmed that both soldiers had been seriously injured during the raid, and later died of their injuries.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7510686.stm

[The_Unforgiven]

So, 17 views and no comment. Ok then. I guess the story just sounds better when its told from israel's point of view.

[Amphitryon]

it seems a little bit unfair, israel only gets remains of corpses, and hezbollah gets perfectly alive and healthy adult terrorists? wtf is this bullshit

Well, this is how things work here, it's like every other prisoner exchange deal Israel did. I don't know if it's because we're suckers or because we value our living and our dead more then our enemy, probably a bit of both.

Wow, way to present both sides of the issue.

I posted a BBC link once I found it, I'll add it to the OP if it'll make you feel better.
But I think that what you fail to understand that this isn't about '2 sides,' everyone who is humane can relate to a family losing their loved ones, this is more like a mourning than anything political.

[Toby]

I merged the article-threads because we keep one thread per story in the Café. If you think an article is biased, then post another source and complain about its inaccuracies.

Personally I find this prisoner-exchange a bit useful to relieve tension between the two countries.

[The_Unforgiven]

I posted a BBC link once I found it, I'll add it to the OP if it'll make you feel better.
But I think that what you fail to understand that this isn't about '2 sides,' everyone who is humane can relate to a family losing their loved ones, this is more like a mourning than anything political.

Says the side that gave back not 2, but 200 dead bodies.

I merged the article-threads because we keep one thread per story in the Café. If you think an article is biased, then post another source and complain about its inaccuracies

Aight boss

[AbnormallyNormal]

well the unforgiven, i dont see what you really objected to in the first article? you also didnt attempt to argue with anyone who was talking about why this is pretty horrific and sickening to celebrate a gruesome child murderer as a national hero.

you also didnt say how its in any way equivalent for israel to get corpse remains of 2 soldiers, and hezbollah gets 5 living ones, plus like 200 dead ones? that seems to blatantly favor one side, and its not israel

[|)/-\\/\/|\|]

Says the side that gave back not 2, but 200 dead bodies.

Good point, never occurred to me!

[The_Unforgiven]

well the unforgiven, i dont see what you really objected to in the first article? you also didnt attempt to argue with anyone who was talking about why this is pretty horrific and sickening to celebrate a gruesome child murderer as a national hero.


Because it is futile? Why should i bother if these people have already made up their minds about what they think about the story.

Anyway, according to the lebanese story, he didnt kill the girl, in fact the girl and her father were both killed by the Israeli air force when they shot his boat. I know that this story contradicts with the evidence on the rock. What I think happened that she died because she hit her head due to the shock wave from the shell.

Also, they are celebrating the man for enduring 30 years in Israel's prisons, which is an accomplishment IMO.

you also didnt say how its in any way equivalent for israel to get corpse remains of 2 soldiers, and hezbollah gets 5 living ones, plus like 200 dead ones? that seems to blatantly favor one side, and its not israel


First of all, it doesnt have to be fair at all. All's fair in love and war. Israel's whole existence isnt fair at all. So what if it's not fair? Why does everyone have to watch out when dealing with israel, and they have to do everything in a way that israel will end up with a "fair" deal.

Second, didnt Israel agree to the deal? Did Hezbollah force them to trade? Israel's original intention was not to trade, but to take them back by force.

Lol, fair.

[GottSein]

Also, they are celebrating the man for enduring 30 years in Israel's prisons, which is an accomplishment IMO.

Yea 3 square meals a day a roof over your head leisure time and no torture. Compare that with the 2 Israeli hostages who didn't even live to 2 years in Hezbollah's captivity. In fact Palestinians will prefer to go to Israeli jail rather than to live at home. I think that speaks volumes over his struggle to "endure" 30 years in prison.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1528104.ece


Anyway, according to the Lebanese story, he didn't kill the girl, in fact the girl and her father were both killed by the Israeli air force when they shot his boat. I know that this story contradicts with the evidence on the rock. What I think happened that she died because she hit her head due to the shock wave from the shell.

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/critiques/interview-with-quntar/

And I quote.. "Quntar: I have been waiting for this day for so long, i was innocent from the start, they had no right to jail me for smashing a 4 year old jewish zionist dog’s head against a rock with my rifle."

Yea he says he's innocent all right.

[The_Unforgiven]

Yea 3 square meals a day a roof over your head leisure time and no torture. Compare that with the 2 Israeli hostages who didn't even live to 2 years in Hezbollah's captivity. In fact Palestinians will prefer to go to Israeli jail rather than to live at home. I think that speaks volumes over his struggle to "endure" 30 years in prison.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1528104.ece


Wow, so now we take what children think? Ok.

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/critique...w-with-quntar/

And I quote.. "Quntar: I have been waiting for this day for so long, i was innocent from the start, they had no right to jail me for smashing a 4 year old jewish zionist dog’s head against a rock with my rifle."

Yea he says he's innocent all right.


That website is so plainly fake its not even funny. BTW, the first interview by Al Manar is going on now, Live. So you can take your fake link and .....

Want something real though?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/997967.html

[Jin-E]

Because it is futile? Why should i bother if these people have already made up their minds about what they think about the story.

Anyway, according to the lebanese story, he didnt kill the girl, in fact the girl and her father were both killed by the Israeli air force when they shot his boat. I know that this story contradicts with the evidence on the rock. What I think happened that she died because she hit her head due to the shock wave from the shell.

Of course Kuntar will lie his ass about this incident. Would kinda put a huge dent on the "brave resistance warrior" image these Arab propagandists have been trying to portray him as if he had admitted to murder that child in cold blood, even if its a Jewish one.

Only fools or people wanting to whitewash his crimes would believe the claims you presented.


http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/critiques/interview-with-quntar/

And I quote.. "Quntar: I have been waiting for this day for so long, i was innocent from the start, they had no right to jail me for smashing a 4 year old jewish zionist dog’s head against a rock with my rifle."

Yea he says he's innocent all right.

I looked at that site myself and in all fairness, i think that interview was not true. According to that interview, he makes derogarative remarks about the Lebanese as well, a role a liberated "hero" isnt supposed to play.

[Zabuzalives]

The nation of Lebanon was truly sickening today, and all Lebanese who support Hezbollah and/or the Lebanese government should be ashamed of themselves. "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" has a limit. Kuntar didn't kill Israeli soldiers, he didn't resist the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. He went into a house and shot a father, then smashed his daughters head on a rock with the butt of his AK-47. Few nations in the world would find that to be heroic, but apparently Lebanon does.

Lebanon has treated a "man" who smashed a 4 year old girl head on a rock as a hero. He has been elevated to rock-star status for something that would bring life in prison in most countries. He wasn't just greeted by Hezbollah either. Lebanese Prime Minister Fahoud Sinora was also there, declaring a national holiday. This is the man Europe and America have declared as "moderate" and "pro-western". If a moderate Lebanese man declares a national holiday over baby-killers, I don't want to see their extremists.

And I know what people will say: BUT ISRAEL HAS KILLED CHILDREN! YOU BOMBED QANA!. And indeed we did. But I will only say this: there is an enormous physical, moral, and psychological difference between accidentally bombing a building with civilians in it and smashing a babies head in with your gun. I know this, you this, spare us all the trouble and don't try to argue with it.

Also all Lebanese should ask themselves: was this worth it? Were 1,200 Lebanese lives and the devastation of your cities worth the return of a baby killer? Just what the fuck is Hezbollah doing? How exactly is this "Resisting the Zionist occupier"? Shouldn't anyone who murders a 4 year old girl like this go to prison? Are people who murder babies heroes as long as the baby is Israeli? If you don't agree with what I just said, what the fuck is wrong with you?

For my own country, it is extremely difficult for foreigners to see exactly why Israel would agree to this deal, why we would release a child murderer. This (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330996531&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) article attempts to go into it, and I find much of it to be true. That being said, this is idiotic on the part of Olmert. It is true that Olmert did no real material damage, Kuntar is a simple child murderer and isn't any more dangerous then your run of the mill nutjob with an AK-47. But Hezbollah will trumpet this as a propaganda victory for years to come. And for the victory-desperate Islamic world, they will eat it all up and drag themselves into further and ultimately futile wars with Israel.

And as for Hezbollah, they got their child murderer back. But remember that 500 to 700 of your highly trained fighters died to release a guy who crushed the skull of a baby girl. Remember that the Israeli economy grew more then it had in a decade just months after your rockets fell on our cities. Israel is far from destroyed or defeated, this was just a prisoner exchange. A child murderer and 4 pieces of cannon fodder have been gained, nothing more. WW2 rockets and kidnappings don't destroy countries, the type of devastation Israel wrought on Lebanon is what destroys countries. Remember that the IDF has undergone intense reforms from a war it didn't even outright lose. Remember that your fearless leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has been hiding in his bunker for years, despite the "divine victory" he supposedly won against Israel.

Also remember that your most skilled military commander, Imad Mughniyeh, was blown to bits in Damascus. In 2008 Hezbollah may of gotten its baby-killer, but we got its best commander.

And for anyone who still admires Hezbollah for celebrating a guy who bashed in the brains of a 4 year old girl (yes I am repeating this over and over, so it sinks in), take a long hard look at yourself and seek help.

Lebanon can now celebrate that their baby-killer has been returned to them, but it should also reflect on what it cost them. Thousands of lives, the devastation of their country, billions in reconstruction, and today Lebanon has taken a new casualty: its national dignity.

Lastly for anyone who may try to gloat for Hezbollah here. Remember what Samir Kuntar did and the price Lebanon paid for his return. That would take away any satisfaction from a civilized human being.


I saw this in the news and wanted to make a thread about the swap and ""Islams heroes"" and more precisely, wtf is wrong in the heads of these people to give a child murderer a heroes welcome.....


Especially seeing how i have debated with several of our muslim board-members on various things; terrorism, justice, morality, Israel etc.

When they couldnt defend Hamas and Al Qaeda that easily they usually pointed to Hezbollah as holding the moral highground in the ME conflict vs Israels ""state terrorism"".

Well they are cheering a child murderer. So much for moral highground...this says enough about their true mentality.

For all Israels flaws, their enemies are 10 times as worse. As such i hope Israel will never fall to this human scum, and they will have my support in this conflict.



I hope the Mossad has some plan in place or are tailing him so they can kill this murderer as soon as possible. Something they really should have done tens of years ago.

And my hats off for Israel, to not have become what they fight. It must be hard to keep fighting with your hands tied behind your back against people that have lost their humanity a long time ago.



Because just what is the point all you Hamas and Hezbollah supporters?? Do you want to push your enemy so far it will become what it fights??

Do you even know what will happen then? When the West, with its far superior military might, takes on the same complete lack of morality in its warfare as you??
Take on the same ""civilians are fair game"" , ""everything our side does is justified"" mentality?

Its not like Russia or China is such a fan of muslim fundamentalists....Doubt they will step in to stop it.




A question though.

Do all you cheering for a child murderer still believe yourself to be good?

[The_Unforgiven]

Of course Kuntar will lie his ass about this incident. Would kinda put a huge dent on the "brave resistance warrior" image these Arab propagandists have been trying to portray him as if he had admitted to murder that child in cold blood, even if its a Jewish one.

Only fools or people wanting to whitewash his crimes would believe the claims you presented.


And doesnt Israel want to defend its "the state that wants to live in peace and coexist with everyone else, but the mean arabs are always fighting back" image?

And my hats off for Israel, to not have become what they fight. It must be hard to keep fighting with your hands tied behind your back against people that have lost their humanity a long time ago.


I agree. It must be hard to kill all those children at Qana with your hands tied behind your back.

[Jin-E]

And doesnt Israel want to defend its "the state that wants to live in peace and coexist with everyone else, but the mean arabs are always fighting back" image?

All wars in the region happened due to Arab aggresion.

They have already made peace deals with Egypt and Jordan, and are poised to make a deal with Syria in the coming years.

But, Israel will never sacrifice the security of her people for shaky deals.

I agree. It must be hard to kill all those children at Qana with your hands tied behind your back.

If Israel had fought like Hezbollah and Hamas do, then tens of thousands of children would have died in that war.

[The_Unforgiven]

All wars in the region happened due to Arab aggresion.

They have already made peace deals with Egypt and Jordan, and are poised to make a deal with Syria in the coming years.

But, Israel will never sacrifice the security of her people for shaky deals.


ya, especially the 1948 war in Palestine.

If Israel had fought like Hezbollah and Hamas do, then tens of thousands of children would have died in that war.


But they already have killed children.

The Lebanese civilian death toll is difficult to pinpoint as most published figures do not distinguish between civilians and Hezbollah combatants, including those released by the Lebanese government.[11] In addition, Hezbollah fighters can be difficult to identify as many do not wear military uniforms.[11] However, it has been widely reported that the majority of the Lebanese killed were civilians, and UNICEF estimated that 30% of those killed were children under the age of 13.[153]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War#Casualties

[Baki]

ya, especially the 1948 war in Palestine.
If you weren't being sarcastic, you'd be right.


On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it and refused to negotiate. Neighboring Arab and Muslim states also rejected the partition plan. The Arab community reacted violently after the Arab Higher Committee declared a strike and burned many buildings and shops. As armed skirmishes between Arab and Jewish paramilitary forces in Palestine continued, the British mandate ended on May 15, 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel having been proclaimed the day before (see Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel). The neighboring Arab states and armies (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Transjordan, Holy War Army, Arab Liberation Army, and local Arabs) immediately attacked Israel following its declaration of independence, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War ensued. Consequently, the partition plan was never implemented.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Ottoman_rule_.281841-1917.29 I'd like you to read the entire Palestine article once you get some time on your hands, then voice your opinion on that.

Before you tell me Wikipedia isn't reliable, i'd like to remind you you used it in your previous post. If you find anything inaccurate, please give us(and wikipedia) a reliable article supporting your point.



But they already have killed children.

The Lebanese civilian death toll is difficult to pinpoint as most published figures do not distinguish between civilians and Hezbollah combatants, including those released by the Lebanese government.[11] In addition, Hezbollah fighters can be difficult to identify as many do not wear military uniforms.[11] However, it has been widely reported that the majority of the Lebanese killed were civilians, and UNICEF estimated that 30% of those killed were children under the age of 13.[153]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War#Casualties

There we go with the Collateral Damage debate again.

If Hezbollah uses your rooftop as a Missile Launchpad to strike Israeli soil, you're not safe. Hezbollah, knowing this, should have evacuated the buildings.
So you're saying Israel should not have attacked enemy launch points?

Or are you insinuating Israel killed children just because there weren't enough military targets to drop their expensive bombs on?

[Zabuzalives]

I agree. It must be hard to kill all those children at Qana with your hands tied behind your back.

Why use expensive guided missile bombs while carpet bombing or firebombing can kill so many more for a cheaper price??

you assume they deliberately targetted those children instead of it being an accident or collateral damage. I dont. (for above reasons)

It might be that they just randomly aimed it at a civilian area. but even in that case. Its comparable to the Hezbollah throwing their missiles at random towards Israeli cities.

still better then selecting a child and murdering it.

still better then having your side support you and back you for killing that child. And cheering for you as a hero.



see, Israel has still far more to sink before coming close to their arab enemies.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1001565.html

Israel arrests Israelis attacking palestinians. even if they merely beaten them.

hezbollah cheers and supports a child murderer.
Hamas carries out and supports blowing up buses and cafes filled with civilians. then treats it as a victory.


what does that say about both sides their mentalities?




P.S. you still think its ok to murder apostates? Just wanted to know if your mentality has changed since last we discussed.

[Sean Connery]

get ready for more pointless bloodshed

[id_1948]

Why dont we study how israel treats terrorist prisoners who return??

In 1956 israel gave permission for Operation Suzzanah to go ahead. This involved having agents plant bombs in western targets in Eygpt. The point was to blame the islamic muslim brotherhood and cause a rift between egypt and america/ britian.

Bombs were planted in US intelligence libraries, cultural centers, post offices and cinemas that were frequented by americans and british. The plot was finally uncovered when a bomb prematurely exploded in an agents pocket when he was on his way to place it in a british owned cinema. He was arrested and the whole gang rounded up.

There was a total of 9 people involved. Worse was that they were from the egyptian jewish community which of course caused a backlash.

Israel denied it was ever linked with this affair.

However in 2005 under a deal these prisoners were released by the eygptians to israel

They were given an official public honourary welcome, recognised for what they did, greeted by the president and given a certificate of appreciations by the jewish state for there actions
(Im also told ... however unable to confirm... that in official israeli school history textbooks these people are classified as heros)


So before people go around talking about arabs celebrating terror etc etc.... take a course in history

And the whole point seems to revolve around qantar bashing the head of a girl on a rock to kill her... this is the israelis point of view... qantar as far as im aware always maintained that he didnt know she was there... ill just say that im not sure what happened... qantar probably isnt the most reliable of people... and neither is the israeli govt who in the past has covered up and not come clean in events

So until further evidence presents itself ill withhold my judgement, and accept this event as what it truely is... israels second defeat by hizbollah

[|)/-\\/\/|\|]

Why dont we study how israel treats terrorist prisoners who return??

In 1956 israel gave permission for Operation Suzzanah to go ahead. This involved having agents plant bombs in western targets in Eygpt. The point was to blame the islamic muslim brotherhood and cause a rift between egypt and america/ britian.

Bombs were planted in US intelligence libraries, cultural centers, post offices and cinemas that were frequented by americans and british. The plot was finally uncovered when a bomb prematurely exploded in an agents pocket when he was on his way to place it in a british owned cinema. He was arrested and the whole gang rounded up.

There was a total of 9 people involved. Worse was that they were from the egyptian jewish community which of course caused a backlash.

Israel denied it was ever linked with this affair.

However in 2005 under a deal these prisoners were released by the eygptians to israel

They were given an official public honourary welcome, recognised for what they did, greeted by the president and given a certificate of appreciations by the jewish state for there actions
(Im also told ... however unable to confirm... that in official israeli school history textbooks these people are classified as heros)


So before people go around talking about arabs celebrating terror etc etc.... take a course in history

And the whole point seems to revolve around qantar bashing the head of a girl on a rock to kill her... this is the israelis point of view... qantar as far as im aware always maintained that he didnt know she was there... ill just say that im not sure what happened... qantar probably isnt the most reliable of people... and neither is the israeli govt who in the past has covered up and not come clean in events

So until further evidence presents itself ill withhold my judgement, and accept this event as what it truely is... israels second defeat by hizbollah

Agree on what you say, both are screwed up people who cheer for murderers and you are right Israel has been defeated for it was unable to stop Hizbulla's missles and unable to protect its citizens nor it was able to disarm Hizbulla. However you to note that Hizbulla was not even close to being able to protect any citizen or anyone in Lebanon, in fact Hizbulla could only protect itself by using guerrilla warfare and failed to protect the Lebanese. In that sense Hizbulla was not only defeated but crushed.

[The_Unforgiven]

If you weren't being sarcastic, you'd be right.


On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it and refused to negotiate. Neighboring Arab and Muslim states also rejected the partition plan. The Arab community reacted violently after the Arab Higher Committee declared a strike and burned many buildings and shops. As armed skirmishes between Arab and Jewish paramilitary forces in Palestine continued, the British mandate ended on May 15, 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel having been proclaimed the day before (see Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel). The neighboring Arab states and armies (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Transjordan, Holy War Army, Arab Liberation Army, and local Arabs) immediately attacked Israel following its declaration of independence, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War ensued. Consequently, the partition plan was never implemented.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...281841-1917.29 I'd like you to read the entire Palestine article once you get some time on your hands, then voice your opinion on that.

Before you tell me Wikipedia isn't reliable, i'd like to remind you you used it in your previous post. If you find anything inaccurate, please give us(and wikipedia) a reliable article supporting your point.


Dude your own article contradicts you. If it was a way to resolve a conflict, then there had to be conflict before.

There we go with the Collateral Damage debate again.

If Hezbollah uses your rooftop as a Missile Launchpad to strike Israeli soil, you're not safe. Hezbollah, knowing this, should have evacuated the buildings.
So you're saying Israel should not have attacked enemy launch points?

Or are you insinuating Israel killed children just because there weren't enough military targets to drop their expensive bombs on?

See, this is why i didnt want to start a debate in the first place.

Why dont we study how israel treats terrorist prisoners who return??

In 1956 israel gave permission for Operation Suzzanah to go ahead. This involved having agents plant bombs in western targets in Eygpt. The point was to blame the islamic muslim brotherhood and cause a rift between egypt and america/ britian.

Bombs were planted in US intelligence libraries, cultural centers, post offices and cinemas that were frequented by americans and british. The plot was finally uncovered when a bomb prematurely exploded in an agents pocket when he was on his way to place it in a british owned cinema. He was arrested and the whole gang rounded up.

There was a total of 9 people involved. Worse was that they were from the egyptian jewish community which of course caused a backlash.

Israel denied it was ever linked with this affair.

However in 2005 under a deal these prisoners were released by the eygptians to israel

They were given an official public honourary welcome, recognised for what they did, greeted by the president and given a certificate of appreciations by the jewish state for there actions
(Im also told ... however unable to confirm... that in official israeli school history textbooks these people are classified as heros)


So before people go around talking about arabs celebrating terror etc etc.... take a course in history

And the whole point seems to revolve around qantar bashing the head of a girl on a rock to kill her... this is the israelis point of view... qantar as far as im aware always maintained that he didnt know she was there... ill just say that im not sure what happened... qantar probably isnt the most reliable of people... and neither is the israeli govt who in the past has covered up and not come clean in events

So until further evidence presents itself ill withhold my judgement, and accept this event as what it truely is... israels second defeat by hizbollah

Thread over.

Cut here.

[Baki]

Dude your own article contradicts you. If it was a way to resolve a conflict, then there had to be conflict before.

The tension itself began to rise in the late 1800's where signs of Zionism first emerged. The Zionism's eventual claim that in order to have a jewish state, they needed to work independently from the arabs. This seperation, is the primary cause of the 1936-1937 Arab Revolt in Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936-1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine)
Here you may ask, Why am i helping your arguement?

And here is where i *gasp* Justify Zionism. Quick history lesson:

There WAS a Kingdom named Israel starting in the year 1020 BCE.(Uniting the Jewish tribes settled there), In the same area as modern day Israel. This is supported not only by the bible, mind you, but by archaeological findings as well. Then came the first Exile by the Assyrians in the year 720 BCE. Once the Persians took control of the area in the year 538 BCE, they allowed the exiled Jews to return to the areas of former Israel. And so they did.

Later on, The Greeks beat the Persians and took control of the area in the year 333 BC. The Greeks even gave certain Autonomy to the Jews living in the area. Then after the romans arrived in 63 BC, the second Exile of the Jews occured in the year 135 CE.

Then, in the year 638 CE, the area was under Arab Control in the form of the Arab Caliphate rule. The Arabs allowed the Jews to return from Exile, for the first time in 500 years. Very few returned, and the Jewish population remained in the low thousands for years and years to come, Until Antisemitism began to rise in europe. This Antisemitism was the catalyst for Zionism.

Source is the same article i gave you in my last post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Here is a number of cases of Antisemitism which prompted Zionism:
1095 - mid-13th century
The waves of Crusades destroyed hundreds of Jewish communities in Europe and in the Middle East, including Jerusalem.

Mid-12th century
The invasion of Almohades brought to end the Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain. Among other refugees was Maimonides, who fled to Morocco, then Egypt, then Eretz Israel.

12th-14th centuries
France. The practice of expelling the Jews accompanied by confiscation of their property, followed by temporary readmissions for ransom, was used to enrich the crown: expulsions from Paris by Philip Augustus in 1182, from France by Louis IX in 1254, by Charles IV in 1322, by Charles V in 1359, by Charles VI in 1394.

1290
King Edward I of England issues the Edict of Expulsion for all Jews from England. The policy was reversed after 350 years in 1655 by Oliver Cromwell.

1348
European Jews were blamed for poisoning wells during the Black Death. Many of those who survived the epidemic and pogroms were either expelled or fled.

1492
Ferdinand II and Isabella issued the Alhambra decree, General Edict on the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain (approx. 200,000), from Sicily (1493, approx. 37,000), from Portugal (1496).

1654
The fall of the Dutch colony of Recife in Brazil to the Portuguese prompted the first group of Jews to flee to North America.

1648-1654
Ukrainian Cossacks and peasants led by Bohdan Khmelnytsky destroyed hundreds of Jewish communities and committed mass atrocities. Ukraine was annexed by the Russian Empire, where officially no Jews were allowed.

1744-1790s
The reforms of Frederick II, Joseph II and Maria Theresa sent masses of impoverished German and Austrian Jews east. See also: Schutzjude.

1881-1884, 1903-1906, 1914-1921
Repeated waves of pogroms swept Russia, propelling mass Jewish emigration (more than 2 million Russian Jews emigrated in the period 1881-1920). During World War I, some 250,000 Jews were transferred from western Russia. See also Pale of Settlement, May Laws, Russian Civil War.

1935-1945
The Nazi persecution culminated in the Holocaust of the European Jewry. The British Mandate of Palestine prohibited Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel. The Bermuda Conference, Evian Conference and other attempts failed to resolve the problem of Jewish refugees, a fact widely used in Nazi propaganda. See also S.S. St. Louis

1948-1958
The Jewish exodus from Arab lands. The combined population of Jewish communities in the Greater Middle East (excluding Israel) was reduced from about 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 today. Some of these communities were more than 2,500 years old. Israel absorbed approximately 600,000 of these refugees, many of whom were temporarily settled in tent cities called Ma'abarot. They were eventually absorbed into Israeli society, and the last Maabarah was dismantled in 1958. The Jewish refugees had no assistance from the UNRWA. See also Farhud.

1960s-1989
State-sponsored persecution in the Soviet Union prompted more than 1 million Soviet Jews to emigrate to Israel, 250,000 to the United States with "refugee" status, and 100,000 to Germany. See also rootless cosmopolitan, Doctors' plot, Jackson-Vanik amendment, refusenik, Zionology, Pamyat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees






Thread over.

Cut here.

No side is clean. You bring about one dirty business in the 50's, and disregard all the Arab acts of violence which took place before, around, and after that time.

[Believe It!]

Okay, here is my take on this.

Olmert is a wuss and a crook. He should be overthrown. This was a stupid trade off that only shows how weak Israel has become. They shouldn't be putting up with all this crap. Who ever heard of trading one live terrorist who bashed a little girl's head with his rifle against a rock in exchange for two dead bodies that weren't even preserved?

Here is what I would have done. I would have made the same trade, but I would have had one of those tiny microchips injected into the bastard first. I'd accept the dead bodies, and then I would have had the military use a GPS to track down that chip and I would have called for an air strike on that very spot. And I would have waited until he was accepted in by his leaders. That way, we would kill him and the higher ups at the same time.

Go ahead, steal it. Make believe that you thought it up. I'm the only one in the world who has thought of this! Israel is weak! They need to throw Olmert out and get in a man with balls! A man who will stand up and defend the country from these vile terrorists!

[Diceman]

Okay, here is my take on this.

Olmert is a wuss and a crook. He should be overthrown.
Overthrown?Not getting him reelected would be good.Its always good to know that fascism is one of your strong points.Heck,you saying you are an American is a big fuckin' ad hominem against the US.

Here is what I would have done. I would have made the same trade, but I would have had one of those tiny microchips injected into the bastard first. I'd accept the dead bodies, and then I would have had the military use a GPS to track down that chip and I would have called for an air strike on that very spot. And I would have waited until he was accepted in by his leaders. That way, we would kill him and the higher ups at the same time.

Terrorists arent that stupid you know.They kinda proved that when they took down two towers and put the ''great'' nation of America into a hissy fit.

[Zabuzalives]

Why dont we study how israel treats terrorist prisoners who return??

this line poses the problem of people having a different definition of terrorism. but oh well, lets look into it


In 1956 israel gave permission for Operation Suzzanah to go ahead. This involved having agents plant bombs in western targets in Eygpt. The point was to blame the islamic muslim brotherhood and cause a rift between egypt and america/ britian.

Bombs were planted in US intelligence libraries, cultural centers, post offices and cinemas that were frequented by americans and british.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

""The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode. They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.""

Even as the bomb went off prematurely in Philip Natanson pocket he survived.

Says enough about what they were designed for...if they wanted civilian deaths like Hamas or Hezbollah, they would add scrapnel and glass to an explosive bomb and target crowded areas when they are at their busiest.



The plot was finally uncovered when a bomb prematurely exploded in an agents pocket when he was on his way to place it in a british owned cinema. He was arrested and the whole gang rounded up.

There was a total of 9 people involved. Worse was that they were from the egyptian jewish community which of course caused a backlash.

Israel denied it was ever linked with this affair.

However in 2005 under a deal these prisoners were released by the eygptians to israel

and how did they treat these prisoners? who caused no casualties? Remember how the Israelis treated the child murderer.

""One suspect was tortured to death in prison and Hungarian born Israeli Meir Max Bineth committed suicide. The trial began on December 11 and lasted until January 27, 1955; two of the accused (Moshe Marzouk and Shmuel Azar) were condemned to execution by hanging and two acquitted with the rest receiving lengthy prison terms. The trial was widely criticized as a show trial, and there were allegations that evidence had been extracted by torture.""



They were given an official public honourary welcome, recognised for what they did, greeted by the president and given a certificate of appreciations by the jewish state for there actions

yeah cause they gave their lives for the Israeli government, even if the espionage plan was ill advised and a failure.

Israel taking responsibility and acknowledging them is the least it can do.


its funny you put child murder and attacking empty buildings on the same level though.


(Im also told ... however unable to confirm... that in official israeli school history textbooks these people are classified as heros)

yes someone ""telling"" you. very reliable. Especially in a group of people that generally hates Israel and is known for widespread propaganda and hate-mongering.



So before people go around talking about arabs celebrating terror etc etc.... take a course in history

I did. and they still seem like a beacon of light compared to their Arab enemies.


And seeing you took a course in history you must know the ties the Jews have to the land. Dating back to the Jewish kingdoms. :zaru



And the whole point seems to revolve around qantar bashing the head of a girl on a rock to kill her... this is the israelis point of view... qantar as far as im aware always maintained that he didnt know she was there... ill just say that im not sure what happened... qantar probably isnt the most reliable of people...

no, strangely enough murderers rarely speak the truth in court.


and neither is the israeli govt who in the past has covered up and not come clean in events

yes i am sure that the entire autopsy and trial was all a farce. You would think that the child being riddled with bullets would raise a few eyebrows from the people close to the scene are dealing with the body afterwards.

Ofcourse the Israeli conspiracists were confident that none of those involved would ever speak out. Or that the surviving family would never want to see the child, or never want the childs death and truth behind it sorted out if doubts were to be raised.

Cause the backlash of their conspiracy being found out would be huge and hit many people. And for what? To ""cover up"" the fact that during a gunfight where Kantar had hostages, the hostages died in the crossfire?
do you know how often that happens?

Hell if thats what the israelis do, then why not with the Entebbe raid? Could have said that they were all the victims were brutally murdered by the hijackers instead of being accidentely shot.


really motive isnt all that strong, and to keep this up for so many years. with tens of people in on it and never cracking, with the huge consequences if it would be found out. Hell, now they devastate the family even more by letting the monster go.


It all makes it VERY unlikely. FAR more unlikely then a murderer lying about his actions to look good.



If Lebanon would have any decency it would investigate the charges, but they are to busy hailing him as a hero. :notrust



talking about mentality. why dont you read through this thread.

http://forum.tayyar.org/f8/samir-kuntar-35276/index10.html

Plenty of supporters who dont care even if he killed a child. He fights against Israel and that justifies everything and makes him a hero in their eyes.
That even thinking about believing Israel makes you a traitor.

Just read it and conclude who makes more of a case there.

Talking about mentality...I remember palestinians cheering in the streets when the twin towers collapsed filled with civilians. Hell even muslims in my own country.... I remember the support throughout the muslim world for Al Qaeda after that act.


If its something that doesnt come in short supply in the Arab world, it seems to be hate.


So until further evidence presents itself ill withhold my judgement, and accept this event as what it truely is... israels second defeat by hizbollah

this just shows your so wrapped up in winning a battle for your ""side"" at all costs you cant see that hezbollah has in fact lost.

Israel looks the more moral now. While Hezbollah has stained its image.

Yeah you got a handful of fighters back. big deal.


They look petty now. Taking so much rejoice in the deaths and suffering of Israel. while they are blind to see that the war has damaged lebanon far far more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NKBV5v4Qlg

But hey as long as they gain power, as long as they reach their goal..everythings justified right???

[hcheng02]

Why dont we study how israel treats terrorist prisoners who return??

In 1956 israel gave permission for Operation Suzzanah to go ahead. This involved having agents plant bombs in western targets in Eygpt. The point was to blame the islamic muslim brotherhood and cause a rift between egypt and america/ britian.

Bombs were planted in US intelligence libraries, cultural centers, post offices and cinemas that were frequented by americans and british. The plot was finally uncovered when a bomb prematurely exploded in an agents pocket when he was on his way to place it in a british owned cinema. He was arrested and the whole gang rounded up.

There was a total of 9 people involved. Worse was that they were from the egyptian jewish community which of course caused a backlash.

Israel denied it was ever linked with this affair.

However in 2005 under a deal these prisoners were released by the eygptians to israel

They were given an official public honourary welcome, recognised for what they did, greeted by the president and given a certificate of appreciations by the jewish state for there actions
(Im also told ... however unable to confirm... that in official israeli school history textbooks these people are classified as heros)

The Lavon Affair was operated by a fringe group and resulted in no casualties. At best it was an attempt at property damage that would lead to bad press. How this is supposed to be the equivalent of pre-meditated baby killing is beyond me.

So before people go around talking about arabs celebrating terror etc etc.... take a course in history

Any serious study of history would show that Israel only attacks when provoked and generally has a clear moral high ground against its enemies since Israel never attempts genocide. Of course, its kind of pointless to argue with you because any study of history would show that the Arabs have an incredible sense of self-deception and lack of perspective regarding facts and logic. The behavior of the Arabs during the Six Day War is ample evidence of this.

And the whole point seems to revolve around qantar bashing the head of a girl on a rock to kill her... this is the israelis point of view... qantar as far as im aware always maintained that he didnt know she was there... ill just say that im not sure what happened... qantar probably isnt the most reliable of people... and neither is the israeli govt who in the past has covered up and not come clean in events

I don't see how he can mistakenly bash a girl's head in. Its not like it was an accidental gun shot in the dark or something. You have to be rather up close and get a good look at your target when you bash someone's head in. And lol at the Israeli government not telling all its secrets to everyone. Like there is any government that does that.

Then again the Arab mindset has devolved to the point that anything that hurts Israel and Israelis is regarded as good so this isn't really surprising at all.

So until further evidence presents itself ill withhold my judgement, and accept this event as what it truely is... israels second defeat by hizbollah

So a war which leads to Hizubullah suffering far greater casualties and damage and Israel comind out with a better economy and fewer casualties is considered a victory. I gotta wonder how many "victories" Hizbullah, and Lebanon, are willing to take.

[id_1948]

The Lavon affair consisted of people sponsered by the israeli govt who placed bombs in public institutions to cause panic and serve a political cause
Thats not terrorism???
And luckly they were caught quickly... It was lucky that the bomb in one of the agents pockets went off when he was on the way to the cinema and the whole gang rounded up early on...
The fact that these people did bombing attacks obviously went straight past your head... they are jews who can do no wrong in your eyes and are thus entitled to do what they did...
Thats some really twisted logic you have... If you cant at least admitt that what they did was wrong then obviously Im wasting my breath arguing with you

yes someone ""telling"" you. very reliable. Especially in a group of people that generally hates Israel and is known for widespread propaganda and hate-mongering.
Its something i read in a news article online a long time ago... unfortunatly I cant remember where so I cant back it up... hence the inclusion between brackets and stating that im unable to confirm... you got a problem with that??? seems to me that you just have to critisise any and all statements made by anybody who is against israel... this is an unhealthy obsession dude

And seeing you took a course in history you must know the ties the Jews have to the land. Dating back to the Jewish kingdoms
THREE THOUSAND YEARS AGO...

Plenty of supporters who dont care even if he killed a child. He fights against Israel and that justifies everything and makes him a hero in their eyes.
That even thinking about believing Israel makes you a traitor
Theres plenty of blind supporters everywhere... in israel you have people who rejoice when arabs die and want to kick out all the arabs from the westbank and exile all israeli arabs... in the US you have people who rejoice when iraqis die... and unfortunately (and funnily enough).. this mindsets exists in the arabic world as well
Always stated that if he killed her then its wrong... however there is no reliable evidence (shootings in the dark, unreliable witness, unreliable govt which has covered up bungled operations in the past)... Like I said if no new evidence comes forth then Ill withhold my judgement


Any serious study of history would show that Israel only attacks when provoked and generally has a clear moral high ground against its enemies since Israel never attempts genocide. Of course, its kind of pointless to argue with you because any study of history would show that the Arabs have an incredible sense of self-deception and lack of perspective regarding facts and logic. The behavior of the Arabs during the Six Day War is ample evidence of this.
1956... israel joined the british and french in a premediated attack against eygpt
1967... premediated attack by israel against egypt, syria, jordan... excuse was that eygpt was planning an attack.. however history was to show that this was never the case...
1980s... israel invades lebanon... the official excuse was that there ambassador in the UK was attacked by arrafats group. The PLO denied all this... a seperate palestinian group in europe claimed responsibility (nothing to do with lebanon)... of course they didnt care.. onwards the tanks rolled towards beirut

So a war which leads to Hizubullah suffering far greater casualties and damage and Israel comind out with a better economy and fewer casualties is considered a victory. I gotta wonder how many "victories" Hizbullah, and Lebanon, are willing to take
It just means that israel will now think twice before attacking lebanon... which is a good thing cause none of the israelis adventure in lebanon were ever successful...
It also means that the only way to get something from israel is from force... negotiations never got the arabs anything... but the suez canal/ gaza/ prisoners/ south lebanon only came back through force

[Xion]

What a shitty deal.

Two dead, decayed bodies for a bunch of live prisoners? Sounds like a ripoff. :notrust

[Kyasurin Yakuto]

The Lebanese celebrating the release of a murderer who bashed in the skull of a 3 year child? Lol, some hero indeed.

That's what I thought too when my dad told me about this. :facepalm

[hcheng02]

The Lavon affair consisted of people sponsered by the israeli govt who placed bombs in public institutions to cause panic and serve a political cause
Thats not terrorism???
And luckly they were caught quickly... It was lucky that the bomb in one of the agents pockets went off when he was on the way to the cinema and the whole gang rounded up early on...
The fact that these people did bombing attacks obviously went straight past your head... they are jews who can do no wrong in your eyes and are thus entitled to do what they did...
Thats some really twisted logic you have... If you cant at least admitt that what they did was wrong then obviously Im wasting my breath arguing with you

The Lavon Affair was a massive fuck up for Israel. But it is interesting to note that the Israeli government was brought down and it was ostracized by its peers in the West. Furthermore, it is an isolated incident. As opposed to Arab terrorism, which is generally welcomed with opened arms by Arab governments and the people. There is no such thing as an Arab who does not support the destruction of Israel.

Theres plenty of blind supporters everywhere... in israel you have people who rejoice when arabs die and want to kick out all the arabs from the westbank and exile all israeli arabs... in the US you have people who rejoice when iraqis die... and unfortunately (and funnily enough).. this mindsets exists in the arabic world as well
Always stated that if he killed her then its wrong... however there is no reliable evidence (shootings in the dark, unreliable witness, unreliable govt which has covered up bungled operations in the past)... Like I said if no new evidence comes forth then Ill withhold my judgement

Here's the difference though. Most Israelis support the two state deal and don't want to kick out Arabs. Those who do are extreme fringe groups. Thats not the case with the Arabs where it is mainstream opinion to wipe out Israel and support terrorism against it. Also, the guy didn't shoot her in the dark, he bashed her head in. I imagine he would have gotten a good look at her. Not that it makes him any less a hero to the Arabs.

1956... israel joined the british and french in a premediated attack against eygpt

Israel was justified in attacking because Nasser blocked Israeli shipping from going through the Suez Canal and the Straits of Tiran, in defiance of the UN too I might add. It also threatened to destroy Israel and helped launch several fedayeen attacks against Israel.

1967... premediated attack by israel against egypt, syria, jordan... excuse was that eygpt was planning an attack.. however history was to show that this was never the case...

LOL. Someone needs to brush up on history here. Egypt never planned to attack? It sure has a strange way of showing it then. What with blocking the Straits of Tiran (which counts as an act of war), kicking out the UN peacekeeping force at the border, massing hundreds of thousands of troops and artillery next to Israel, as well as publicly and repeatedly claiming to destroy Israel. Egypt did everything except write in big flaming letters saying "Egypt is going to kill you all." You have to be an idiot to ignore all that. Israel attacked first because it was facing an imminent threat, which is well within UN self defense standards.

1980s... israel invades lebanon... the official excuse was that there ambassador in the UK was attacked by arrafats group. The PLO denied all this... a seperate palestinian group in europe claimed responsibility (nothing to do with lebanon)... of course they didnt care.. onwards the tanks rolled towards beirut

Please, the PLO launched hundreds of attacks from Lebanon. Israel attacked in response to PLO attacks. The UK was never a big factor.

It just means that israel will now think twice before attacking lebanon... which is a good thing cause none of the israelis adventure in lebanon were ever successful...

Israel succeeded in driving out the PLO from Lebanon, so I would count that as a success.

It also means that the only way to get something from israel is from force... negotiations never got the arabs anything... but the suez canal/ gaza/ prisoners/ south lebanon only came back through force

The Egyptians got back the Suez Canal as a result from negotiating with Israel, the Camp David Accords of 1978 to be exact. Thats because Sadat had the brains to figure out that Israel was here to stay. I should also note that Sadat's decision was not popular with the Arab World, as Egypt was kicked out of the Arab League as a result of the treaty and Sadat himself was assassinated. Also, Israel can use the Suez Canal as well, so it didn't hurt Israel at all.

Gaza's so called force has bought it nothing but misery. It has probably the most pathetic rocket campaign in modern history. Thousands of rockets fired but only a handful of deaths. Not to mention the fact that Gaza is living in the total mercy of Israel, who can attack and starve it at will. As a result of Gaza's foolishness, its economy is on its knees and its been reduced to international begging.

As for southern Lebanon, the UN has placed a UN peacekeeping force right after Israel fought it.

[id_1948]

I raised the Lavon affair to point out how israel treats terrorists it gets back... Whereas if qantar killed that girl or not ive always reserved my judgement for reasons stated above... really not much more to add regarding this

And israel doesnt support a 2 state solution... o yeah it says it does... but none of its actions back it up (settlement building, wall that cuts into palestinian terrority)... whereas the arabs do support a 2 state solution and have issued the saudi initiative stating that they do

Also regarding the other stuff...
Israel launched a war with british and fench help... it really had everything to do with the french and british being pissed off that he nationalised the suez canal... of course israel loved to step in with the big powers and get a piece of the action... the other stuff was just coverup and lame excuses... of course the soviet union threatened to interfere... and this caused the US to put pressure on the above mentioned trio to cause it didnt want a showdown with the soviets... but this was a war initiated by those three countries..

In 1967 if you read history (and not propoganda thats circled around) youll realise that eygpt never planned to attack... the americans knew it (which is why they didnt interfere and told israel not to worry), the british knew it... the russians spoke warned nasser against attacking and conveyed that to israel... Israel knew pretty much that egypt will not attack... What happened that day was that egypt won a political victory... and they were throwing around there usual propoganda and threats (which happened more or less everyday).... However what israel couldnt bear was the political defeat that was handed to them (pretty much like what theyre getting now)... which is why they decided to attack

Of interesting note... Nasser anticipated that the israelis will attack... and he had a large meeting with all the military heads... and then he asked the airforce commander- If the israelis attack how severe will our casualities be among our airforce equipment before we mount a counter offensive.
The commander replied- 40% after that we will be able to launch a counter attack..
When a junior asked his commander where he got this number from (since he wasnt aware of any studies) his reply was- its just something I made up... do you really think the israelis will attack??
Of course they attacked... and the casualties were 100% (not 40%).
I think the airforce commander commited suicede afterwards (although Im not sure cause it was along time ago since I read that book)

And egypt didnt get back the suez canal as a result of negotiations... it was as a result of the 1973 war

When the egyptians lost in 1965 they set about planning to regain the suez... the original plan was drawn by gamal abd alnasser and he laid all the details uptill the hour of attack in 1973. This was adhered to till the letter even after his death
That includes training soldiers deep in the sahara dessert on water guns to melt down the rock sand wall erected by the israelis... using the libyans to buy the fast deployment rubberbaots from italy that were used... and rebuilding the airforce
It should be noted that the original plan involved the egyptian army deploying all the way in until yaffa with the syrian army extending into the deep north.

Then nasser died... and sadat took over
Sadat originally tried negotiations with the israelis... they refused flat out...
This went on for 3 years... however the israelis were never going to give back the suez canal...
Thats when he inacted nassers plan... on 1973 a twin attack was launched against israel... egypt from the south and syria from the north... the golan was retook... and egypt retook the sinai... then stopped
The commander of the land forces was prepared to cross over and push on to yaffa (as was the original script)... however he recieved a phone call from sadat- this is a political problem at this point, not a military one... do not advance further into israel... hold your ground in the suez
While he was debating whether to follow this new sudden plan or follow the old plan... Sadat flew in a different commander to relieve him

It was because the egyptians held the ground in sinai and didnt advance into israel that the israelis were able to focus all there forces on syria on the north... drive them back... and then return to sinai in the south,... engage the egyptians and drive them back
In a way egypt betrayed syria for a political cause
I always wondered what would have happened if nasser didnt die and if the original plan adhered to... ie a full ground attack which pressed on fully

However even though israel recovered... it learned a lesson
It wasnt invincible... if the enemy pressed on from both directions (which wasnt the case)... it could not have recovered... and thats pretty much when work on a nuclear bomb started (because the myth of invincibility was shattered)
(interestingly jordan was supposed to participate... but didnt... instead there king flew to israel in a helicoptor a week before the attack to warn them that an attack was imminent and supply them with maps... they didnt believe him.. which showed the extent of the arrogance at that time)

However it was beacuse egypt was able to show that it was determined to get back the suez... and did use force... and will do so again in the future that israel entered into peace talks
Otherwise peace talks would never have happened
And of they gave back the canal (land for peace) like was orginally proposed by sadat then the 73 war would never have happened
which goes for my argument that no land returned by israel wasnt because force was used

Anyway thats the history 'behind the scene' lesson for the day

Since I dont have anymore to add on the core topic (returning of the lebanese prisoners) I wont be posting anymore... unless something interesting to the core topic arises

[hcheng02]

And israel doesnt support a 2 state solution... o yeah it says it does... but none of its actions back it up (settlement building, wall that cuts into palestinian terrority)... whereas the arabs do support a 2 state solution and have issued the saudi initiative stating that they do

The Saudi Peace initiative ignores the fundamental problem, which is the Palestinians attacking Israel. It doesn't matter if the other Arab states recognize Israel if the Palestinians don't and keep on attacking it. This is of course assuming the peace initiative is really sincere since the Arab actions don't back it up: sponsoring terrorism against Israel, indoctrinating their children against Israel and the Jews, speaking publicly about destroying the state, and supporting Nazism. Furthermore, the Arab states only agreed to peace once they figured out that they could not destroy Israel, which validates Israel's "Iron Wall" strategy.

Also regarding the other stuff...
Israel launched a war with british and fench help... it really had everything to do with the french and british being pissed off that he nationalised the suez canal... of course israel loved to step in with the big powers and get a piece of the action... the other stuff was just coverup and lame excuses... of course the soviet union threatened to interfere... and this caused the US to put pressure on the above mentioned trio to cause it didnt want a showdown with the soviets... but this was a war initiated by those three countries..

Israel went to war because its own interests were threatened. It just so happened that the British and French were also pissed at Nasser, and if you are going to war why not get some allies? The result was that Nasser's army was beaten to the ground, and it was only because he was a lackey of the USSR that he stayed in power. Also, Eisenhower's role in forcing the Israelis to back off is evidence against the Arab myth that the US backs Israel through everything.

In 1967 if you read history (and not propoganda thats circled around) youll realise that eygpt never planned to attack... the americans knew it (which is why they didnt interfere and told israel not to worry), the british knew it... the russians spoke warned nasser against attacking and conveyed that to israel... Israel knew pretty much that egypt will not attack... What happened that day was that egypt won a political victory... and they were throwing around there usual propoganda and threats (which happened more or less everyday).... However what israel couldnt bear was the political defeat that was handed to them (pretty much like what theyre getting now)... which is why they decided to attack

The US did not interfere because they were trapped in Vietnam at the point. It would be politically impossible for President Johnson to deploy troops to help Israel. They had considered a plan to send an international flotilla to call Nasser's bluff, but nothing came of it. (Interestingly enough, the US has never deployed troops to help Israel, ever.) And its not everyday that Israel faces threats from an enemy who masses hundreds of thousands of troops at its borders and commits an act of war. This is not some idle threat from some radio host. When the head of state says he will kill you all and sends in troops next to you, you're going to take it seriously. Closing the Straits of Tiran would have threatened the security of Israel because that was where the majority of their oil supply went through.

Of interesting note... Nasser anticipated that the israelis will attack... and he had a large meeting with all the military heads... and then he asked the airforce commander- If the israelis attack how severe will our casualities be among our airforce equipment before we mount a counter offensive.
The commander replied- 40% after that we will be able to launch a counter attack..
When a junior asked his commander where he got this number from (since he wasnt aware of any studies) his reply was- its just something I made up... do you really think the israelis will attack??
Of course they attacked... and the casualties were 100% (not 40%).
I think the airforce commander commited suicede afterwards (although Im not sure cause it was along time ago since I read that book)

Towards the end Nasser began to believe his own propaganda and thought he could actually take out the Israelis. The whole state, government and people alike, believed that Nasser's audacity would somehow win them the war and anybody who said otherwise was immediately shot down. Its nothing more than a further example of the Arab's rank incompetence.

And egypt didnt get back the suez canal as a result of negotiations... it was as a result of the 1973 war

When the egyptians lost in 1965 they set about planning to regain the suez... the original plan was drawn by gamal abd alnasser and he laid all the details uptill the hour of attack in 1973. This was adhered to till the letter even after his death
That includes training soldiers deep in the sahara dessert on water guns to melt down the rock sand wall erected by the israelis... using the libyans to buy the fast deployment rubberbaots from italy that were used... and rebuilding the airforce
It should be noted that the original plan involved the egyptian army deploying all the way in until yaffa with the syrian army extending into the deep north.

Then nasser died... and sadat took over
Sadat originally tried negotiations with the israelis... they refused flat out...
This went on for 3 years... however the israelis were never going to give back the suez canal...
Thats when he inacted nassers plan... on 1973 a twin attack was launched against israel... egypt from the south and syria from the north... the golan was retook... and egypt retook the sinai... then stopped
The commander of the land forces was prepared to cross over and push on to yaffa (as was the original script)... however he recieved a phone call from sadat- this is a political problem at this point, not a military one... do not advance further into israel... hold your ground in the suez
While he was debating whether to follow this new sudden plan or follow the old plan... Sadat flew in a different commander to relieve him

You mean the war which ended with Israel holding more land than it started with and completely surrounding the third Egyptian Army, which was without air cover and cut off from all supplies? I guess after the 1967 War the Arabs must have really lowered their standards for victory. Then again in 1967 the Arab's armies were totally destroyed, whereas in 1973 the Arab army's destruction was merely virtually assured. Thats a slight improvement I guess.

Also Israel offered to give back the territories for peace immediately after war. Its just that the Arabs were too humiliated to take the offer and gave the Khartoum Resolution.

It was because the egyptians held the ground in sinai and didnt advance into israel that the israelis were able to focus all there forces on syria on the north... drive them back... and then return to sinai in the south,... engage the egyptians and drive them back

In a way egypt betrayed syria for a political cause
I always wondered what would have happened if nasser didnt die and if the original plan adhered to... ie a full ground attack which pressed on fully

The reason why Egypt held the ground was because if they went too far they would have lost the protection of their SAM's and been exposed to the Israeli Air Force. If Nasser had been in charge it would basically have resulted in the Egyptian army's annihilation. As for Egypt betraying Syria, I doubt it. The thing about Arab leaders is that you should not assign malice when rank incompetence and miscommunication explains their actions equally well.

However even though israel recovered... it learned a lesson
It wasnt invincible... if the enemy pressed on from both directions (which wasnt the case)... it could not have recovered... and thats pretty much when work on a nuclear bomb started (because the myth of invincibility was shattered)
(interestingly jordan was supposed to participate... but didnt... instead there king flew to israel in a helicoptor a week before the attack to warn them that an attack was imminent and supply them with maps... they didnt believe him.. which showed the extent of the arrogance at that time)

However it was beacuse egypt was able to show that it was determined to get back the suez... and did use force... and will do so again in the future that israel entered into peace talks
Otherwise peace talks would never have happened
And of they gave back the canal (land for peace) like was orginally proposed by sadat then the 73 war would never have happened
which goes for my argument that no land returned by israel wasnt because force was used


Oh yes, the peace talks that ended with Israel giving back the Sinai (which is turned into a UN run DMZ that the Egyptian Army is not allowed in) and the Suez Canal (which Israel can still use) in exchange for formal recognition and peace treaties from Egypt. All in all, far from a defeat Israel gained peace from land, as was their intention all along after the 1967 War. The Egyptians also got oodles of US foreign aid as well.

And here's a question the Arabs never seem to ask. If force was the solution to getting back their land, how come Israel is still holding on to the Golan Heights? After all, Syria fought just as hard as Egypt did during the Yom Kippur War. I'll tell you why. Egypt was smart enough to talk, whereas Syria was not.

[LipLipDK]

They should have shot the the criminals and delivered them like corpses. Just like Israel recieved only corpses