The million dollar challenge, and its implications for religion and general woo.

[Willaien]

http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

What do you guys think the implications are (that noone has won it), when it comes topics of religion, science and general woo?

[Uchiha Q]

heard of this challenge,

dont see how it affects my religion but may affect some religous sects who claim to be able to heal people and stuff.

if i had the money i wold do the same except the challenge would be to show me one contradiction/error in the quran.

[Willaien]

heard of this challenge,

dont see how it affects my religion but may affect some religous sects who claim to be able to heal people and stuff.

if i had the money i wold do the same except the challenge would be to show me one contradiction/error in the quran.

Define contradiction/error. Religious people are very good at hand-waving away any contradiction or error.

But, if you insist.

Surah 27: The Ant

27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Nay, but most of them know not!

Would strongly imply that the earth is fixed and immovable.

[Black Wraith]

Or He Who made the earth an abode [of stability], that does not [constantly] shake beneath [the feet of] its inhabitants, and made rivers [to flow] throughout it and set firm mountains for it, with which He fixed the earth [in place], and set an isthmus between the two seas, between the sweet one and the salty one, the one not mixing with the other. Is there a god with God? Nay, but most of them have no knowledge, of His Oneness.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=61&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

[Willaien]

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=27&tAyahNo=61&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

That still doesn't help. "doesn't shake beneath the feet of its inhabitants"? Never heard of an earthquake?

Salty and fresh water do not mix? Yeah, tell that to all the fish that can live in that area where they do.

[avraell]

While I am tempted to say it proves that there is no paranormal. In reality, it's much easier to go to casinos and such if you have some sort of paranormal power. Or go to rich individuals directly to avoid the attention.

[Uchiha Q]

first mistake,

english translation of the quran =/= the quran

but trust me there isint any contradiction that hlds any weight,because once analyzed it will boil own to it being taken out of context or translation thing or sometimes pur misinformation.

trust me i looked.

nice try though.

[Black Wraith]

That still doesn't help. "doesn't shake beneath the feet of its inhabitants"? Never heard of an earthquake?

Salty and fresh water do not mix? Yeah, tell that to all the fish that can live in that area where they do.

Read it carefully and it also says 'constantly' too.

[Link]

To above: Taking a text as anything but literally leaves it completely open to interpretation. There are no wrong or right interpretations, and since the writers of most religious texts are also no longer alive, we cannot accurately know their intentions. Context can be used to figure out the message, but it can only be taken so far. Take it too far, and you can use it to change the message to whatever you want.

Also, I don't agree with many Muslims claiming that Islam can only be understood in Arabic. That sounds like a copout to me.

[Black Wraith]

The reason for that is because Arabic is a very unique language and is very sensitive which makes translations very very difficult.

It is an interesting language to learn though.

[Link]

The reason for that is because Arabic is a very unique language and is very sensitive which makes translations very very difficult.

It is an interesting language to learn though.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's like a gamut of a bunch of old languages. Regardless of that, it seems like that is used as an excuse for you guys to hide your cards behind your hands. It's very easy to say, "you can't understand, the true meaning is lost in translation", but when languages as different as English and Japanese are trading media (manga, anime), this claim is disputable.

[Black Wraith]

I'll give you a little example about the Arabic language:

The word 'Dharaba' means 'to hit' the word 'Ardh' means 'ground/Earth'

Put them together 'Dharabul Ardh' and you get 'to hit the ground/Eath' however it actually means to travel when the two words are put together.

Literal translations won't work too good and also Arabic has a lot of depth that would make it very hard to translate it correctly.

Just try learning it, I've been learning it for the past 6 years and still learn more things about the language.

Anyway this isn't really the place to talk about Arabic.

[Uchiha Q]

You can get NEAR the meaning of the Quran by reading tafsirs/interpretationS and diffrent translations and also asking a muslim about a particular thing,

however arabic isint an imposible language to learn, you have a brain capable of learning arabic theres nothing to hide.

however i dont think the thread starter will appreciate us talking off-topic so i hope if ayone has any questions regarding islam please look at my sig.

[Willaien]

You can get NEAR the meaning of the Quran by reading tafsirs/interpretationS and diffrent translations and also asking a muslim about a particular thing,

however arabic isint an imposible language to learn, you have a brain capable of learning arabic theres nothing to hide.

however i dont think the thread starter will appreciate us talking off-topic so i hope if ayone has any questions regarding islam please look at my sig.

Here's the deal.

You say that 'interpretations cannot get near the meaning'. But, what do I do if I learn Arabic? I have to interpret it, since I don't have a native understanding of it. (Which isn't any better than reading someone else's translation) And, since the Quran hasn't changed in so long, it is using an old form of Arabic, so not only do I have to learn modern Arabic, I have to learn an archaic form of Arabic, some words of which have probably shifted meaning. Which brings me to another point: not even a native speaker of Arabic can truly understand the Quran, since the language has changed. So, they have to trust to scholars to translate older words and try to put things in context, so not even native speakers of Arabic can truly 'read the Quran', unless they were from the time that it was written.

So, you criticize an outsider for trying to 'interpret the Quran based upon a translation', whenever you have to do so as well. You all do, unless you were born 1400 years ago.

It's all hand-waving to dismiss criticism, and you probably know it.

[Uchiha Q]

You say that 'interpretations cannot get near the meaning'
where did i say that exactly ?

here is what i said

"You can get NEAR the meaning of the Quran by reading tafsirs/interpretationS and diffrent translations and also asking a muslim about a particular thing,
"

But, what do I do if I learn Arabic? I have to interpret it, since I don't have a native understanding of it. (Which isn't any better than reading someone else's translation)
when i told you you can learn arabic i meant the arabic used in the Quran, the arabic for example i speak everyday is like an accent with new words and stuff, the Arabic used in the quran can be learned its nothing hidden in a safe or something.


since the Quran hasn't changed in so long, it is using an old form of Arabic, so not only do I have to learn modern Arabic, I have to learn an archaic form of Arabic
i dont see why learning the modern arabic is a requirement to learn the arabic used in the quran, its mostly the same however some stuff re diffrent,

since the arabic used in the quran is the original arabic so all you have to do is learn that arabic in order to understand it.

some words of which have probably shifted meaning.
like ?

not even a native speaker of Arabic can truly understand the Quran, since the language has changed. So, they have to trust to scholars to translate older words and try to put things in context, so not even native speakers of Arabic can truly 'read the Quran', unless they were from the time that it was written.

thats not true, i am a native speaker of arabic and i can rea the quran, and yes i do stumble apon some verses that do require me to read up on tafsirs,

however nothing stops me from going to a school and learn fiqh and learn the quran step by step,

i trust the scholars, they take everything into concideration hadiths, quran verses, and they cant just make up stuff it doesent work like that.

[Willaien]

i trust the scholars, they take everything into concideration hadiths, quran verses, and they cant just make up stuff it doesent work like that.

If you can trust the scholars to translate the words you don't understand, then how in the hell can you criticize an outsider for trusting scholars that probably know more about Arabic than they ever could in a lifetime to translate it into their native language? Remember, not everyone can devote their entire life to understanding a language, especially one as complex as Arabic, that they will never gain TRUE understanding of, since its not their native language, so they turn to someone who has... then you criticize them for doing what you do, relying on scholars who know more about the language than they to translate it for them?

[Amra]

To give an example of what Willaien is talking about, we can look at 51:47 of the Quran. (i selected this one because it seems to be a commonly chosen verse to prove the validity of the Quran)

This is what is written in most recent translations of the Quran,
(51:47) "AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

However, this is what is written in most older translations of the Quran,
51:47 And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
51:48 And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.

I personally am more inclined to believe the older translation is more accurate, as it was made closer to the times of which the original version was written, and would more likely reflect the original intent in context with the world. The newer translation is based on newer understanding of Arabic and not purely an ancient understanding or ancient context. The word in question is َمُوسِعُونَ which you would claim means expand, but it can also mean expanse, (or ample, vast etc) which means context dictates what it is. It would say it is used in the context of describing an object, and not in the context of an action, which would make older translations more accurate, but I am hardly a scholar and scholars can naturally make it seems as though though there is a possibility that its describing the action as apposed to describing an object. This is where it gets muddy, and why we are forced to rely on scholars.

Personally, I think the newer translation is used because it would make the Quran seem more accurate to science, and portray that the Quran has more accurate knowledge that would have been impossible for ancient man to know. I also think the older translation more realistically describes what was originally intended, and fits the context of the rest of the verses better.

There is also the fact that scholars wrote the original version, and scholars changed it, so one is incorrect, either it was errant then or it is errant now, thus not protected by God, and thus the only way to truly understand it would be as Willaien said, to have lived in the time it was written and understand Arabic in the context of the world as it existed then.

Words evolve over time, anyone who says otherwise is only trying to sell something, ... yes, even if they are only selling their opinion... yes, even if its free.

[CrazyMoronX]

How did this thread turn into a debate about something non-topic?

Personally, I don't see anyone coming up with anything that won't just be dismissed no matter how much proof they have. Impact: 0

[Willaien]

How did this thread turn into a debate about something non-topic?

Personally, I don't see anyone coming up with anything that won't just be dismissed no matter how much proof they have. Impact: 0

"won't just be dismissed no matter how much proof they have"?

They let these people design the tests themselves, and give them help in designing the tests if it is asked. Obviously, they will disregard biased tests, or untestable claims.

http://www.randi.org/joom/million-dollar-challenge-faq.html

[Juno]

How did this thread turn into a debate about something non-topic?

Personally, I don't see anyone coming up with anything that won't just be dismissed no matter how much proof they have. Impact: 0

Perhaps because the supernatural is actually bullshit.

[CrazyMoronX]

"won't just be dismissed no matter how much proof they have"?

They let these people design the tests themselves, and give them help in designing the tests if it is asked. Obviously, they will disregard biased tests, or untestable claims.

http://www.randi.org/joom/million-dollar-challenge-faq.html
The problem is, no matter what test is run, it will not be repeatable and no one will believe it unless they see it for themselves. This challenge is 100% pointless regardless of wether or not the supernatural occurences are real.

[Willaien]

The problem is, no matter what test is run, it will not be repeatable and no one will believe it unless they see it for themselves. This challenge is 100% pointless regardless of wether or not the supernatural occurences are real.

How so? If they DO pass the preliminary, there will be a very high profile 'official test', after which they will be given $10,000 immediately (and within 10 days, the rest of the million), if they can do so again. If what they claim is real and has an effect on the real world, then this should be no problem!

[Uchiha Q]

first amra let me congratulate you for your 666th post :D

the older translation you gave me i have never heard of i loked thrue most popuar 3,

picktall: 51:47 We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof).

M asad: 51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [31]

yusuf ali: 51:47 With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

so as we can see the tanslation of the meaning of the quran varrey,

however if you speak arabic, simply reading the text in arabic shows what the verse is saying.
وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ
wich is expanding in simple straight forward translation.
Personally, I think the newer translation is used because it would make the Quran seem more accurate to science, and portray that the Quran has more accurate knowledge that would have been impossible for ancient man to know. I also think the older translation more realistically describes what was originally intended, and fits the context of the rest of the verses better.

i hardly think theres some sort of conspiracy in the translation of the quran, just so it could seem as if it has scientific facts in it that no man could of made up, for many reasons, one being scientifical "miracles" for a lack of a better word arent the only things tht the quran has to offer, there are predictions, numerical "miracles" that cant be changed by interpretation especialy when talking about numbers.

[Willaien]

i hardly think theres some sort of conspiracy in the translation of the quran, just so it could seem as if it has scientific facts in it that no man could of made up, for many reasons, one being scientifical "miracles" for a lack of a better word arent the only things tht the quran has to offer, there are predictions, numerical "miracles" that cant be changed by interpretation especialy when talking about numbers.

I would love some honest examples of the above. No points given for the following:

* If the prophecy is vague, unclear or garbled (like Nostradamus' ramblings, for example). It must be detailed, specific and unambiguous in its prediction and wording.

* If the prophecy is trivial. Anyone could predict that it will be cold next winter, or that this drought/plague/flood will eventually subside. The prophecy must predict something surprising, unlikely or unique.

* If the prophecy is obviously contrived for other reasons. No official seer or court astrologer ever predicted that the king he worked for would be a brutal, evil tyrant who would ruin the country.

* If the prophecy is self-fulfilling; i.e., if the mere fact of the prophecy's existence could cause people to make it come true. The Jewish people returned to their homeland in Israel just as the Bible said they would, but this isn't a genuine prediction - they did it because the Bible said they would. The predicted event can't be one that people could stage.

* If the prophecy predicts an event that already happened and the writing of the prophecy itself can't be shown to have preceded the event.

* If the prophecy predicts an event that already happened and the happening of that event can't be verified by independent evidence. For example, Christian apologists claim that Jesus fulfilled many Old Testament prophecies, but the authors of the New Testament obviously had access to those prophecies also; what would have prevented them from writing their story to conform to them? The extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus is so scanty that it is impossible to disprove such a proposal.

* And finally, if the prophecy is the lone success among a thousand failures. Anyone can throw prophecies against the wall until one sticks. The book or other source from which it comes must have at least a decently good record on other predictions.

The bolded especially applies. A common example given is the following:
2:29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

There is a problem with using this as a 'proof' (The argument goes: "since the atmosphere has 'seven layers', and this knowledge would have not have been available at the time the Quran was written, it proves its divinity"). For one, there are 5 principle layers of the atmosphere, not 7 (you have to count sublayers to get 7). Second of all, it is not a clear, precise prediction, instead it is someone searching for something to match up with the real world. Finally, if we accept that these seven 'heavens' are referring to the layers of the atmosphere, then the following make no sense, in context:

37:6 Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;

41:12 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

It is much more likely that the number seven has significant theological meaning, and that number was picked.

Also, if you want a review of how scientifically ignorant the Quran is, just see the following:

21:33 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

Which indicates that the sun and the moon both orbit around the earth.

[Uchiha Q]

the first verse is talking about the atmosphere the rest is talking about the universes/everything that exists, or dimension, w/e .

For one, there are 5 principle layers of the atmosphere, not 7 (you have to count sublayers to get 7)
its 7 in LAYERS, unless those sub-LAYERS arent layers at all.

It is much more likely that the number seven has significant theological meaning, and that number was picked.
and its a coincidence it was right, sure why not.


Which indicates that the sun and the moon both orbit around the earth.
where did it say the suna nd the moon were orbiting around the earth ?
its smply saying both of them have their own orbits you simply putting words into the verse.

---

"The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.238"

wikipedia/earth:

"Surface area 510,072,000 km²[3]
148,940,000 km² land (29.2 %)


361,132,000 km² water (70.8 %) "


---

"Human being" is used 65 times: the sum of the number of references to the stages of man's creation is the same: i.e.

Human being 65

Soil (turab) 17

Drop of Sperm (nutfah) 12

Embryo ('alaq) 6

A half formed lump of flesh (mudghah) 3

Bone ('idham) 15

Flesh (lahm) 12

TOTAL 65

[scottlw]

exactly... no supernatural exists

[avraell]

It is an interesting language to learn though.

The interest much elevated by the current financial position and income potential in the UAE for me.

You guys really should make a new thread on your Quaran discussion though, it really is detracting from this thread at this point.

[Neophius]

I believe the premise of the challenge is flawed. It assumes that one can manipulate the supernatural in the same manner as one the physical world in order to create the control/experimental groups necessary for an experiment.

The inability to test the supernatural does not imply the non-existence of the supernatural; rather, it simply reinforces that the supernatural (if it exists) is beyond the realm of man to control at his whim.

[Willaien]

I believe the premise of the challenge is flawed. It assumes that one can manipulate the supernatural in the same manner as one the physical world in order to create the control/experimental groups necessary for an experiment.

The inability to test the supernatural does not imply the non-existence of the supernatural; rather, it simply reinforces that the supernatural (if it exists) is beyond the realm of man to control at his whim.

The test is not to confirm whether or not the supernatural exists, it is to see if anything supernatural has any measurable effect on the real world - AS CLAIMED BY PROPONENTS OF SAID IDEAS.


*stuff*

Yeah... that is just looking for things to match up to the real world. Like I said, I will disregard such ridiculous nonsense, unless you can actually point to something that specifically stated that it would match up to the real world, and said knowledge is unavailable to the writers. (Something like "Lo! And he said that the amount of energy stored in a material is equal to the mass times how fast light goes, squared" would be much more impressive than your numbers-mining)

[Uchiha Q]

apply the theory of probability.

[CrazyMoronX]

How so? If they DO pass the preliminary, there will be a very high profile 'official test', after which they will be given $10,000 immediately (and within 10 days, the rest of the million), if they can do so again. If what they claim is real and has an effect on the real world, then this should be no problem!
What I'm saying is, generally speaking, a supernatural event will happen once. There cannot be a retest. If there is no retest, no one will believe it.

[Willaien]

apply the theory of probability.

Throw some blocks on the ground, and declare it a miracle that they landed in that particular arrangement (and might, just so happen to look like something vaguely familiar), then.

Or, go cloud-watching and declare the clouds to be miracles, because their shapes are inherently infinitely improbable, yet some of them actually look like things!

[Hwon]

I believe the premise of the challenge is flawed. It assumes that one can manipulate the supernatural in the same manner as one the physical world in order to create the control/experimental groups necessary for an experiment.

The inability to test the supernatural does not imply the non-existence of the supernatural; rather, it simply reinforces that the supernatural (if it exists) is beyond the realm of man to control at his whim.

And the inability for me to test the invisible intangible pink elephant in my room does not imply the non-existence of the pink elephant; rather, it simply reinforces that the pink elephant is invisible and intangible. :notrust

The challenge is meant to be impossible. People believe in the supernatural because it is or was an "answer" to things we don't or can't understand. The problem is there is no verification for supernatural events. There is no way to separate something that has a natural cause and can't be explained from something that is supernatural. If we can't do it using the scientific method, the process that has made our great technological civilizations today, then how might the people thousands of years ago suppose to separate the two?

[Neophius]

And the inability for me to test the invisible intangible pink elephant in my room does not imply the non-existence of the pink elephant; rather, it simply reinforces that the pink elephant is invisible and intangible. :notrust

The challenge is meant to be impossible. People believe in the supernatural because it is or was an "answer" to things we don't or can't understand. The problem is there is no verification for supernatural events. There is no way to separate something that has a natural cause and can't be explained from something that is supernatural. If we can't do it using the scientific method, the process that has made our great technological civilizations today, then how might the people thousands of years ago suppose to separate the two?

I understand the premise of the challenge. I reject the claim that the supernatural must be measurable in a manner subject to controlled experimentation. You have the right to dismiss the supernatural on these grounds as non-existent. In fact, I agree that the supernatural is non-existent on the terms that science defines reality.

I reject science's ability to define the supernatural, as by definition anything measurable would fall within the realm of natural. This is why science is obviously so useful to humanity; we are supposed to learn more and more about the natural realm. Anything beyond that limitation is no longer science.

Although people cannot reproduce a supernatural effect on the natural (which seems to be the obvious conclusion of the challenge thus far), it doesn't imply anything concerning the condition of something that exists outside of the natural. It merely reinforces that, if it exists, man cannot interact with the supernatural on his own terms.

[Willaien]

Although people cannot reproduce a supernatural effect on the natural (which seems to be the obvious conclusion of the challenge thus far), it doesn't imply anything concerning the condition of something that exists outside of the natural. It merely reinforces that, if it exists, man cannot interact with the supernatural on his own terms.

The true intent has very little to do with your 'supernatural is above and beyond science and unstudiable' bit here - the challenge is really aimed at those who claim to be able to consistently break everything we know about the world around us. (EG - psychics, etc.). They actually DO claim to be able to do such things on a regular basis, yet when pressed, can do no such thing, or it is shown to be a hoax. THESE are the people it is truly aimed at.

Now, back to the topic at hand: The real question is this: to those who believe that the supernatural really affects the world is some measurable way, and can do so consistently (a la rituals, etc), why don't you take the challenge?