Post Kiba vs Kidomaro

[Roka]

Post Kiba vs Kidomaro

They start 50 metres apart on the ground in the Forest of Death.
Kidomaro can see Kiba but Kiba can't see Kidomaro.
They only have knowledge from what they seen of each other.
Kiba has two soldier pills.
No restrictions.
In character.


Who wins?

[Vagrant Tom]

Well sight isn't a problem with Kiba, he'd easily smell out Kidomaru without a bit of trouble. I imagine something like this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/12/) would happen minus the dodging of the attack. Kidomaru won't go CS2 straight away anyway, he likes to play around first and that will cost him.

[TasteTheDifference]

Kiba can't see Kidomaru? this has to go to Kidomaru then. The only reason Neji survived was because of Byakugan. Even if he can get to him because of smell that still doesn't let him dodge the arrows

[Roka]

I'd just like to point out that the distance is 50 metres. They are in character and Kiba can find Kido using his nose.

[Watchman]

Post Kiba vs Kidomaro

They start 50 metres apart on the ground in the Forest of Death.
Kidomaro can see Kiba but Kiba can't see Kidomaro.
They only have knowledge from what they seen of each other.
Kiba has two soldier pills.
No restrictions.
In character.


Who wins?

Kidomaru fucking stomps, without even needing his godly Sniper Bow.

He can keep an eye on Kiba easily, and let's not forget his supreme evasive and perceptive abilities.

Read (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35157) these (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35158) pages (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35164)

Multiple attacks? Useless. Blind spot? Useless. Multiple attacks from his blind spot? Useless.

If gets a chance to attack, this will be his fate. Webbed, and unable to escape. His attacks require momentum that he does not have if he is unable to even move.

However, that won't be the case.

Why? Because Kidomaru won't let him mount a concerted offensive. He is capable of mounting an offence that doesn't give Neji any time to let up. Kiba is no Neji. He cannot predict and defend against spiders and web-kunai coming at him from all directions. He will succumb very easily in the face of such an assault.

Kiba is outclassed here, tremendously.

[Truepotential]

Has Kiba even improved over the time skip?

Kiba lost to Sakon/Ukon, Kidomaru rips him to shreds. Even the strongest of the SRA group, Neji barely beat Kidomaru because his fighting style countered Kido's.

[Shiranui]

50 Meters isn't a large concern to me. It is the fact that initially, Kiba cannot see Kidoumaru. I understand that his knack for scent tracking will come in handy here, though Kidoumaru can very easily set his webbing or create barriers before attempting to separate himself. And even in the event that he is struck by Kiba's Gatsuuga, I doubt much damage will come of it if any - considering his Kumonenkin Armor.

The lack of sight, and ability for Kidoumaru to conceal himself at a safe distance gives him the victory with kumo senkyuu: susaku; Kidoumaru's warbow.

[Ryuk]

Kidomaru for the fact Kiba can't see him.

[Hiroshi]

Has Kiba even improved over the time skip?

His new jutsu was: Kiba Doriru (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/12/). We can also say that his sense of smell has improved. Those are only the definates: we can assume other things as well.

[Shiranui]

we can assume other things as well.

Not really. We can't give him increased speed or in-battle intelligence. The only two showings of something 'new' you have provided, nothing else should be added or assumed for this match.

[Han Solo]

Crap. I hate matches like these. Were basically forced to assume how strong Kiba is right now - in which everyone is going to think differently, so the debating ends up being retarded. And the battledome was not made for assumptions either...

[Grimmjowsensei]

If Kidomaru doesn't fool around, he could pull this off by 1 shotting Kiba. If Kiba somehow manages to avoid the webs and get in close, he'd wtf pwn Kido.

[Itachi's Apprentice 3]

Kidomaru most likely.

[Roland]

Kidomaru easily takes care of Kiba before Kiba can get close enough to launch an offensive. Kiba, essentially, has no ranged attacks other than his Gatsuuga. All of his other jutsu require him to be close to his opponent or are simply supplementary jutsu. With Kidomaru's webbing he can eliminate Kiba's use of Gatsuuga, which I believe relies heavily on the rotation of the spin. By disabling that rotation, Kidomaru is able to eliminate Kiba's only ranged attack. Once caught in the webbing, if that is the case, Kiba will quickly be taken out of the fight.

[Vangelis]

Kidomaru wins this.

[Roka]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Kiba already knows about the webs. Do you all still believe he'd get caught so easily?

[Hiroshi]

Not really. We can't give him increased speed or in-battle intelligence. The only two showings of something 'new' you have provided, nothing else should be added or assumed for this match.

Nothing can be assumed for this match obviously: or else I would have stated them. [Maybe I should have said that] I'm just saying that we can speculate that he has gotten better though it can not necessary be applied to this match. Such as a possible bigger Garuga.

[Roland]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Kiba already knows about the webs. Do you all still believe he'd get caught so easily?

Simply having knowledge doesn't always lead to victory. Kiba isn't shown to be the smartest of shinobi where as Kidomaru was able to find the only weakness in the Byakugan in a matter of moments.

[PisOgPapir]

I'm actually going to have to go with Vagrant on this one. Four legs, a Tsuuga and it's going to be over. He's easily fast enough now to smell out and dodge those nets.

[Roka]

But then simply being a genius or in this case just quite smart doesn't always lead to victory against a stupid opponent.

Naruto beat Neji after all :awesome

[Vagrant Tom]

But inteligence isn't everything. I believe post Kiba could evade the webs. Plus 2 on 1 means Kidomaru is going to be nder pressure. Kidomaru isn't going to start in CS2 or go that far so soon. He likes to play too much. Even if he did, he'd only be able to hit one of his enemies before the other tsugas him and KOs him.

Plus, Kiba isn't stupid. He's like Naruto in the way he has battle cunning. Like how he beat Sakon/Ukons Kekkei Genkai ability 'Souma no Kou.' And how he escaped them with a fake Akamaru kunai bomb. And his use of his jacket to escape.

[PisOgPapir]

Intelligence matters nil if the enemy has no weakness. Kidomaru gets blitz'd.

[balmung29]

Sight wouldnt be a problem for Kiba as for his nose. I see Kiba even though he lost against Sakon and Ukon, I think he could take this.

[Dman]

i think kiba wins even if he cant see.

[Watchman]

But inteligence isn't everything.

Agreed.

I believe post Kiba could evade the webs.

I do not. These webs caught Neji easily, and even though Post Kiba is most likely faster than Pre Neji, his reaction speed is nowhere near as good. Not to mention his attack leaves no room for dodging - it's a linear, mid-air attack. He will be caught, he will be pwned.

Plus 2 on 1 means Kidomaru is going to be nder pressure. Kidomaru isn't going to start in CS2 or go that far so soon. He likes to play too much. Even if he did, he'd only be able to hit one of his enemies before the other tsugas him and KOs him.

:facepalm

Did you just skip over the link I posted showing Kidomaru solo'ing the SRA squad? He dodged multiple attacks, from the entire squad, several of which were from his blind spot! He'll be able to dodge whichever person does not get webbed.

[Vagrant Tom]

SRA members < Post Skip people.

[Watchman]

SRA members < Post Skip people.

Generally, yes.

But are you saying that Post Kiba's Reaction Time in Mid-air>SRA Neji's?

Or that Post Kiba/Akamaru can catch Kidomaru when the entirety of the SRA squad failed miserably?

More importantly, can you provide proof?

[Vagrant Tom]

Kiba is fast enough to avoid the attacks of Kidomaru. He was fast before and he is likely faster post skip. He also has knowledge of all Kidomarus moves that he used. He knows Kidomaru can move in the air and he knows about the webs. A simple tactic would be to throw a smoke bomb and suprise him with gatsuuga from all angles. He did this against Naruto to great effect, but now gatsuuga is stronger it would take out Kidomaro. Finding him should be easy with his nose and speed.

[Watchman]

Kiba is fast enough to avoid the attacks of Kidomaru. He was fast before and he is likely faster post skip. He also has knowledge of all Kidomarus moves that he used. He knows Kidomaru can move in the air and he knows about the webs. A simple tactic would be to throw a smoke bomb and suprise him with gatsuuga from all angles. He did this against Naruto to great effect, but now gatsuuga is stronger it would take out Kidomaro. Finding him should be easy with his nose and speed.

It works both ways. Kiba knows of the webs, Kidomaru knows that Kiba and his dog attack using fast spinning drill-like manoeuvres.

You think it will be easy for Kiba to just get behind Kidomaru without him noticing, and drop a smoke bomb on him? Yes, he got behind Madara... whilst Madara was focusing on Shino's approaching swarm of Kikaichu and the rest of Team Konoha.

It won't be that simple this time, since Kidomaru doesn't have his attention occupied. He'll see Kiba coming, dodge, and spam web. Kiba will be caught, and that's the end.

Let's not forget that Kidomaru dodged two Gatsuugas in mid-air, from behind, with ease. You are severely underestimating him.

[Vagrant Tom]

Try dodging two improved gatsuugas in the middle of the smoke bomb. Also, show me a time when Kiba has been unable to get behind his opponent. His speed allows him to do so, not using distractions. He doesn't even need to get behind, just close enough to use a smoke bomb.

You are underestimating Kiba. Pre skip he was able to put up a good fight against the strongest of the sound 4. Post skip, after 3 years of experience and training and with a larger dog, he would win this.

[SpitefulSerpent5]

:facepalm

Once I saw the title, I just knew that it was going to go down between The hobo and Icare.


Do you have any idea what you've done Dr. Stein Roka?


Oh, Kido wins. He knows Kiba's drill attacks, but Kiba doesn't know his arrows.

[Roka]

Of course I knew :zaru

But really. IMO Kiba wins this.

[Watchman]

How will Kiba be able to get behind Kidomaru without him noticing?

Through speed alone? I don't think so - Kidomaru was able to notice that something was behind him multiple times when he took on the SRA team, and if Kiba starts with a smoke bomb, do you think Kido is so dumb as to sit there and take it?

No, he'll move, and I think he will dodge Gatsuuga. I don't think Kiba's speed has increased enough over the timeskip to make it an instant kill. Once he's dodged, then we get the webs, and a move that will render Kiba immobile.

Even if Kidomaru is unable to fully dodge the attack, he can bring out his Kumonenkin armour, which he is able to do ridiculously quickly as we've seen from him bringing it out during Neji's 64-strikes, and deflect a good deal of the damage.

[Vagrant Tom]

Firstly, Kiba doesn't need Kido not to notice, he just needs to get close enough for the smoke bomb. Secondly, pre Kiba got behind Sakon (who is arguably faster than Kido) with ease before he could react (it was the suprise Ukon attack that got him).

64 palms doesn't do much external damage, the armour protected from the juuken. Post Kiba did a lot of damage via his tsuuga. It cut through the tree with such ease, leaving clean drill marks. Imagine that hitting Kidomaru several times over. The armour would just be ripped off along with his flesh.

[Watchman]

Firstly, Kiba doesn't need Kido not to notice, he just needs to get close enough for the smoke bomb. Secondly, pre Kiba got behind Sakon (who is arguably faster than Kido) with ease before he could react (it was the suprise Ukon attack that got him).

Again a complete ignoral of the links I provided that show that Kidomaru predicted and evaded a Kiba attack from his blind spot!

64 palms doesn't do much external damage, the armour protected from the juuken. Post Kiba did a lot of damage via his tsuuga. It cut through the tree with such ease, leaving clean drill marks. Imagine that hitting Kidomaru several times over. The armour would just be ripped off along with his flesh.

... Do you forget that Kidomaru got smashed through a tree by the 64 strikes? If anything, you've just validated my argument that Kumonenkin can allow him to survive even a direct hit from Tsuuga.

[Vagrant Tom]

Blunt trauma =/= the tearing, drilling attack of gatsuuga. Gatsuuga hits you multiple times with tree cutting force.

As for spotting someone in the blind spot, that was all because Kiba didn't expect Kidomaro to be able to dodge in the air. Now he knows and will smoke bomb you before he launches the attack. Show me a scan of Kidomaru responding to a fast attack.

[Ragormha]

Kidomaru definite has the edge, but we shouldn't discount Kiba.

The problem is that Kidomaru has the intelligence to break down Kiba's attacks quickly, webs that Kiba has shown no signs of being able to break, the ability to set up traps very quickly, Cursed Seal for increased strength and the ability to generate ningu.

Kiba's special attacks are, by and large, very linear. Gatsuuga, Kiba, Garouga, all follow massive lines that are easy to predict and especially the former two don't really bring anything new to the table.

Kiba's attack-from-behind is likely to be less effective than normal here as Kidomaru has a good awareness of his surroundings and should be able to dodge, especially if he uses his webs as he likely will do (from what we've seen he definitely prefers to fight in the trees and make use of his webs)

The other thing to consider is that Kiba is not smart, bordering on reckless, he's not stupid but he hasn't exactly shown much consideration, meaning the potential for him falling into web traps is quite significant.

Kidomaru's armour will also likely soften any taijutsu used on him immensely, while I believe any of Kiba's jutsu will break it it will likely soften the blow.

Also for those who care Kidomaru had double Kiba's stamina, the same taijutsu, .5 less speed, 1 less strength and 2.5 more intelligence than Kiba. According to the databooks, his growth is arguable and I don't place a lot of faith in the databooks accuracy but for those who care there it is.

Really consider the scenarios though, most result in a Kidomaru victory.

Even assuming Kiba uses a smokebomb, he can't see in the smoke and even though Kidomaru can't either he can activate his armour and make use of webs to create areas where Kiba can't be without being caught.

Using a Gatsuuga or the like is practically suicide, unless you really believe Kiba's speed is that far above Kidomaru's that regardless of anything he does Kiba still hits him, which is ridiculous.

Lastly remember this is a match between Chuunin, in the SRA it was an against-the-odds match of Genin V Chuunin now it is more like an equal duel of two Chuunin with different specialisations.

Make your decision however you will, but unless you hold Kiba in a particularly favourable light Kidomaru has the higher probability of winning this.

[Vagrant Tom]

Even assuming Kiba uses a smokebomb, he can't see in the smoke and even though Kidomaru can't either he can activate his armour and make use of webs to create areas where Kiba can't be without being caught.

Kiba can and does fight blind via his nose.

[Ragormha]

Kiba can and does fight blind via his nose.

Doesn't help him avoid webs or any other traps, be cause he can't actuallysee, which given Kidomaru's intelligence he likely will have thought to place against a high-speed type like Kiba.

Just like he won't know if Kidomaru activates his armour.

Secondary methods of perception such as that only work so far.

[Roka]

Actually his nose can help him avoid traps and webbing as it will smell of Kidomaro. His nose is much more powerful than in SRA and back then he could smell the enemies scent on the traps i.e Kidomaro's

[Ragormha]

Actually his nose can help him avoid traps and webbing as it will smell of Kidomaro. His nose is much more powerful than in SRA and back then he could smell the enemies scent on the traps i.e Kidomaro's

How can he tell Kidomaru from the traps then? Note in the latest arcs he couldn't differentiate scents that well.

There's no reason Kidomaru shouldn't smell of webs and webs of Kidomaru, after all they're both made of him.

Lastly do you think he could react that quickly to a change in scents? Do you think he'd realise they were in fact traps and not pieces of his armour? (for later on.)

[Roka]

He'd know which was which as soon as Kidomaro moved...

[Vagrant Tom]

Two similar smells at a large distance (~10 km) appart would be hard, but at point blank range it would be easy. I doubt web smells like the flesh and sweat etc of Kidomaru. In Garuga pre skip he has shown the power to chase and attack via smell.

[Ragormha]

He'd know which was which as soon as Kidomaro moved...

Would he? Doesn't that mean Kido could easily fool him with a thrown web?

Two similar smells at a large distance (~10 km) appart would be hard, but at point blank range it would be easy. I doubt web smells like the flesh and sweat etc of Kidomaru. In Garuga pre skip he has shown the power to chase and attack via smell.

There's a difference between saying "I attack this smell" than to say "out of all these smells, I'll differentiate and choose this one."

Moreover I've already said it is unlikely Kidomaru will be caught in a smokebomb as the FoD is quite open and he generally fights in the trees, so a smoke bomb will likely be ineffective.

[Vagrant Tom]

We could argue in circles all day, but there comes a point where you just have to accept that we each have different opinions on the matter and leave it at that. Otherwise it just gets dull.

[Ragormha]

We could argue in circles all day, but there comes a point where you just have to accept that we each have different opinions on the matter and leave it at that. Otherwise it just gets dull.

Why post something like that in a debate topic?

I say what I say because I believe I am right, because I believe the facts and nature of the battle supports me, I wish to either be acknowledged as such or disproved or to disprove others and change their mind.

I assume you have somewhat similar motivations or there'd be little reason for you to post at all.

[Vagrant Tom]

Oh, I still believe my points to be true and could argue on attempt to prove my points and stuff. But I think this is getting a bit stale. I was arguing with HK before you joined in so I've been going for a while. And now I cannot be bothered with this thread anymore. I do admit that this battle certainly isn't clear cut but I think Kiba has the edge.

[Gentle Fist]

eh I think Kido wins...Kiba wont be able to escape his webs without some Hyuuga blood and without prior knowledge..he'll most likey get caught

[Vagrant Tom]

lol, he has prior knowledge

[PisOgPapir]

I'm still with Vagrant on this one!

[Ragormha]

I'm still with Vagrant on this one!

Care to substantiate?

[PisOgPapir]

I would, but i gotta go for now - Ja Ne!

[Cabbage Cabrera]

I think Kido plays a little too much too fight Kiba who doesn't dick around. Kiba manages to win i believe.

[Shiranui]

Care to substantiate?

I believe he is referring to the knowledge of Kidoumaru's Ninpou Kumo Shibari. Which in no way covers the ability of his to attack at a long range with kumo senkyuu: susaku, though it gives a basis for Kiba to move cautiously amongst potential traps that will be laid throughout the forest.

This debate is really a matter of taking into account each persons preference of characters. In all honesty you aren't going to persuade someone like vagrant tom to believe he can be defeated by Kiba and visa-versa for members like Vindicare. I don't mean to accuse anyone, but from a third party perspective it certainly seems as if one side is being debated not through logic but through being a fan of a particular character.

[PisOgPapir]

You fail to realize the truth Vyse.

Of course this is going to be a matter of fandom, as we don't know what Post kiba is capable. Speaking completely non-biased.

[Axl Low]

Kidomaru rapes.