Shinn vs Kira Debate Thread [Archive]

Inquisitor

05-30-2005, 10:38 AM

My point is that this could have been avoided entirely if he wasn't there at all. She was very frightened of Freedom; this fear provoked her most destructive attack. If Kira wasn't there, Shinn and Neo (once he decided to go against his orders, which I think was brewing in him - speculation only, we'll have to see how his personality develops over the next few eps) could have subdued Stellar and taken her away. So my point is that while Archangel's intentions were good, they (for the third time) caused more harm than good by being there.

You don't really know what would've happened had Kira and the AA not been there. Alright, let's examine what the situation would've been had the AA and Kira decided to sit out this fight. Shinn would've been fighting Destroy, Neo, and Sting on his own (he has enough talent to take out Neo and Sting pretty easily if they team up on him). Now assuming that he didn't defeat Neo and Sting (and caused them to crash) Stellar would have little reason to go crazy after Shinn calmed her down. [It is possible though that Neo would've continued to urge her forward since he has orders to fulfill] Then what? Would Shinn take her back? We've seen what happened last time he took her (she nearly died). Would he give her back to the EA to fight another day? What would Shinn do. So at the most Stellar would have lived to fight another day, and don't think she wouldn't fight again; she is one of the EA's extended. She is doomed to a horrible life. So no matter what Shinn does Stellar is not going to live a normal life; she can't. Either she will die fighting or die on a hospital bed. The best course of action considering this circumstance is the one that saves the most lives.

Which brings me to my next point, which is that the AA and Kira saved lives by intervening (as an example, how Cagali saved some civilians). Also, if Kira had not shown up, Destroy would've gone along its merry way of destroying pretty much everything until Shinn showed up. Stellar's life is not worth anymore than anyone else's. She was a threat to countless people.

ssouske

05-30-2005, 10:46 AM

If kira and gang was not there, more than three quarters of eurasia, or even the whole Eurasia, could have been destroyed and there would be a lot of possible future shinns... (EEEEEK! just the thought of more angsty, arogant, and bitchy brats roaming in earth makes me shiver... :P )

Kiba-kun

05-30-2005, 11:17 AM

bksianzz

05-30-2005, 11:27 AM

kiba vs kira? haha
back to topic... the person who is at fault is neo.... he shouldnt have let stellar drive tat "thing" in the first place... second what kira did was right, third its good tat stellar died.. coz now we can see shinn vs kira... which is exciting

shinn should own kira if shinn were to use the same gundam as kira... no doubt shinn has better ability than kira coz he has the hatred in his heart which drives him further

Inquisitor

05-30-2005, 11:49 AM

Hmm. I do agree with you, Inquistor - but we need to know just how much damage that last outburst from Destroy actually did. That was MUCH bigger than all the previous attacks: so the question is, did that attack cause more deaths than were prevented by the Archangel's actions? Because I don't think we can dispute that the particular attack was caused by Kira's presence. So really, the debate boils down to comparing non-existant numbers now XD Am I wrong?

To an extent it does come down to comparing non-existent numbers (as you put it), but please bear in mind that Shinn was not there for the entire time. Kira was fighting Destroy for a little bit before Shinn arrived, and who knows what Destroy would have done had Freedom not shown up and attacked.

Also, we don't know how Stellar would have reacted had Kira not been there; would Neo have urged her on? Would she have left the battlefield? We just don't know. Considering all of these uncertainties, which spring from the uncertainties of warfare, was it not right for Kira and the AA to at least attempt to do the right thing?

Mindless

05-30-2005, 03:17 PM

I'm with Inquisitor on this one. What would have happened if Kira and them wasn't there?

There are numerous possibilities...

Example #1:

Shinn engaged in battle with Destroy (Stellar) and dealt the same 'fatal' blow to the cockpit area, and Neo told him to stop (like he did in the episode) because the pilot was Stellar. From here on, I think it would have gone like this: Shinn starts screaming at Neo for not keeping his promise, Shinn cuts Neo down and it either kills him or injures him badly. Stellar seeing (her beloved?) Neo crashing to the ground in a burning mobile suit and then exploding when hitting the ground, she would have gone crazy and killed everyone, no matter how much she 'loved' Shinn.

Example #2:

Shinn engages in battle with Destroy (Stellar) and gets some hits on it. But then, Chaos decides to get involved in the whole thing, and Sting beeing a quite 'precious' person to Stellar... well, things speak for themselves. Stellar would have gone berserk again. Only this time, Neo never had time to tell Shinn to stop because Shinn already cut his Windam down and killed him. So it's a 1 vs. 1 battle between Destroy and Impulse. Shinn, with his obviously superior piloting skills and his SEED-mode would obviously had won. And seeing how Shinn isn't the type of guy that 'spares' his enemies, we can say with almost 100% certainty that Shinn would have killed Stellar. And afterwards, he finds out it was Stellar piloting Destroy, and that he killed her.

Who would he blame then? Himself? Hardly, since he's never wrong (he put it that bluntly in the past, so why not now?). Blame ZAFT? Maybe. Blame the EA? Hell yeah. Blame ORB? Why not, Cagalli is the sugarcoat-bitch after all. (And ORB formed a union with the EA. He might think that the union between them somehow 'allowed' the EA to build Destroy. I hope you understand what I'm getting at...)

Or, he would simply sulk for the 18 remaining episodes about how he killed the only person that actually loved him since his family died.

(It would have been for the better if this happened, if you compare it to Kira getting involved, but then again, how could Kira not get involved in this? It was a matter of human lives, and Kira, unlike Shinn is able to draw a line between human lives. Kira would rather kill one to save a thousand. Shinn on the other hand (as it seems) would rather kill a thousand to save one (Stellar).)

To me, Kira getting involved in all this was for the better. Well, not just Kira, but the Archangel and everyone too. If they didn't come, it would have turned into a bigger mess.

My two cents (for now).

icy_tony

05-30-2005, 06:21 PM

Shinn should own kira if shinn were to use the same gundam as kira... no doubt shinn has better ability than kira coz he has the hatred in his heart which drives him further

Not really, just because shinn has the hatred factor, kira has the experience and if u push kira far enough ex: freedom vs. providence, he would let go of the "no killing" thing and destroy shinn in no time at all.

staradderdragoon

05-31-2005, 04:47 PM

Not really, just because shinn has the hatred factor, kira has the experience and if u push kira far enough ex: freedom vs. providence, he would let go of the "no killing" thing and destroy shinn in no time at all.

this also supports the fact that shinn canot go into berserker mode willingly. kira in berserker mode is practically unstoppable...

Chillin

05-31-2005, 05:03 PM

I agree with Inquisitor and Mindless so I really won't say much other than Kira and AA were right in coming and finishing Destroy. Just because we know Stellar's name doesn't mean she was anymore important than even one of the possible tens of thousands of lives that she took and would have kept on killing if they were not there to fight and eventually take her down.

Mindless

05-31-2005, 05:43 PM

Oh come on. The thread starter isn't even defending himself? What kind of thread is this? :P

Get the posting going for christs sake!

Inquisitor

05-31-2005, 06:18 PM

Indeed. Where's the fiery passion of the Shinn fanboy brigade? I guess we might have to change subjects to the actual Shinn and Kira battle that will inevitably happen and the subsequent fights of their rivalry.

Of course Shinn is doomed to ultimately fail in his quest to get revenge, because Kira is far too popular to be killed off, though we might have a situation where Shinn thinks he kills Kira, just like how Athrun though he killed Kira way back in SEED).

Son_Pan

05-31-2005, 07:16 PM

I agree with Chillin, Inquisitor and Mindless as well!

bravo. y'allz deserve a rep for sayin everything that should have been said. me like!

i, too, am wondering what Kiba and that other dude is going to say. so they can post in the SEED Destiny thread but not this one to say something back?

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 08:22 AM

I'm coming, I'm coming! I'm not online 24/7 y'know. :P

Righty-o.
but please bear in mind that Shinn was not there for the entire time. Kira was fighting Destroy for a little bit before Shinn arrived, and who knows what Destroy would have done had Freedom not shown up and attacked.
They didn't actually do a hell of a lot. Kira just kinda flitted around and annoyed Neo and Sting; he provoked a couple of shots from Destroy at him instead of the city, but nothing too major. The only notable thing was Cagalli defending those civilians, and that's not Kira, ne? :p

Stellar would have little reason to go crazy after Shinn calmed her down. [It is possible though that Neo would've continued to urge her forward since he has orders to fulfill] Then what? Would Shinn take her back? We've seen what happened last time he took her (she nearly died). Would he give her back to the EA to fight another day? What would Shinn do. So at the most Stellar would have lived to fight another day, and don't think she wouldn't fight again; she is one of the EA's extended. She is doomed to a horrible life. So no matter what Shinn does Stellar is not going to live a normal life; she can't. Either she will die fighting or die on a hospital bed. The best course of action considering this circumstance is the one that saves the most lives.
So surely the action that saves the most lives is stopping Destroy ASAP? Kira's being there prolonged the assault and provoked more attacks. If he wasn't there, Destroy would have been stopped MUCH quicker; that I'm fairly sure of. After that, I'm just hoping that Neo can do something about her.
Which brings me to my next point, which is that the AA and Kira saved lives by intervening (as an example, how Cagali saved some civilians). Also, if Kira had not shown up, Destroy would've gone along its merry way of destroying pretty much everything until Shinn showed up. Stellar's life is not worth anymore than anyone else's. She was a threat to countless people
Again, see above. Archangel didn't distract Destroy enough to make a difference, and I believe that the lives saved by Cagalli etc don't balance with the lives taken with the angry attacks Kira provoked from Destroy.
the person who is at fault is neo.... he shouldnt have let stellar drive tat "thing" in the first place...
Djibril, actually, IMO. Neo's lovely really...he's just following orders. *clutches onto Mwu pictures and cries*
To an extent it does come down to comparing non-existent numbers (as you put it), but please bear in mind that Shinn was not there for the entire time. Kira was fighting Destroy for a little bit before Shinn arrived, and who knows what Destroy would have done had Freedom not shown up and attacked.
Comparing the numbers of lives saved by Archangel before Minerva showed up and the numbers of lives taken by attacks Freedom caused from Destroy is what I mean; these numbers don't exist, so we can't really take that any further.
Mindless, while your examples make plenty of sense, I could draw plenty of similar ones that make equal amount of sense; I can't really argue against them, because they could easily happen, but by the same token I could pull some of my own that work similarly for my own point. But I'm not going to, because I'm tired and my friend is calling me lame for posting this. *runs away*

Jikes

06-01-2005, 10:33 AM

Indeed. Where's the fiery passion of the Shinn fanboy brigade? I guess we might have to change subjects to the actual Shinn and Kira battle that will inevitably happen and the subsequent fights of their rivalry.

START RANT: So far there is only Kiba-Kun and myself, that is hardly a brigade, are you trying to put us on the same level of the sasuke fanboys of yore? if you look at the numbers we are highly outnumbered to the "ultimate coordinator" fanboys and fangirls so obviously flooding this area of the forum, go on look at the Shinn Asuka fanclub which is on like page 8 of its respective section, there are like 5 members!: END RANT

Of course Shinn is doomed to ultimately fail in his quest to get revenge, because Kira is far too popular to be killed off, though we might have a situation where Shinn thinks he kills Kira, just like how Athrun though he killed Kira way back in SEED).

I like this idea, this could create a really good conflict between Shinn and Athrun after they think shinn kills kira and perhaps Athrun could finally find his place in this story.

(this i not directed at Inquistor) I know Kira is the ultimate coordinator and all but if you look at the facts the only seriously strong person he has defeated was Raww, how many extended did he defeat in SEED, i believe the number is "0", I admit Kira is a really good pilot but to say he is will own Shinn is abosolutely stupid, just remember that shin has done more in Desitiny than Kira had done at the same point in SEED, thats why the battle between them is going to be so cool.

personally after actually watching episode 32 I would have to disagree with Kiba that Kira had almost no choice in finishing off Destroy, however i am not supporting the fact that Kira killed Stellar, i think it would have been much more in Kira's nature to have done a similar thing to Destroy as he did to Savior.

to many people here a Kira biased, its as if he is Jesus or something, only myself and Kiba are the ones saying anything against him, to fully debate you must understand the arguements against your side.

Here are the bad points I understand about Shin:

1. He is an angsty brat - seriously though at his age I bet you where too except for one difference, he saw his sisters mutilated body, now that is going to screw up anyone in the head, i'm surprised he isn't even more of an angsty brat than he is.

2. well everything he does wrong basically stems from arguement 1. Shinn obvious lack of respect for others is simply caused by the fact that he thinks no-body understand him and he is the only one going through it tough, yes he is arrogant but most teenagers are, He also kills and shoots at people with no regard for human life, well if no one had the common respect not to fire at your family i'm sure you would be like that aswell and also BECAUSE ITS HIS JOB TO KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER duh!

However AA are not a military force, they are militia, therefore what they are doing is wrong, firing at bothsides of a war is like putting up a flag and saying KILL ME NOW, Kira has no right, i repeat "NO RIGHT" to enter a skermish with ORB or Minerva (EA is fine because I hate them), Cagalli, Lacus, and Kira are all idealistic children who dont know what hell they are doing, stopping a war is one thing, potentially endangering soldiers and friends lives by interveaning is another.

eg. I am totally against the war in IRAQ, but you dont see me going to IRAQ and running into the middle of a battle field holding firearms saying "STOP STOP please dont fight its not the humane thing to do"

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 10:54 AM

eg. I am totally against the war in IRAQ, but you dont see me going to IRAQ and running into the middle of a battle field holding firearms saying "STOP STOP please dont fight its not the humane thing to do"

Exactly, you don't see the remainder of the EU (excluding the UK) running to Iraq and trying to stop the war, do you? And don't say they don't have the power to carry that out if they tried, because they do. While Archangel's heart is in the right place, so far they have had no success in following through their ideals, and have not learnt from their mistakes.

And I totally agree with Jikes about Shinn's flaws, I was about to post something similar myself :P Why don't we have a similar list of Kira's flaws from one of you guys?

ElelloN

06-01-2005, 11:41 AM

(this i not directed at Inquistor) I know Kira is the ultimate coordinator and all but if you look at the facts the only seriously strong person he has defeated was Raww, how many extended did he defeat in SEED, i believe the number is "0", I admit Kira is a really good pilot but to say he is will own Shinn is abosolutely stupid, just remember that shin has done more in Desitiny than Kira had done at the same point in SEED, thats why the battle between them is going to be so cool.
I think it was about this time Kira was starting to really kick Zafts (Athrun, Dearka, Yzak and Nicol) ass. He was starting force them to flee instead of defending AA while it was fleeing.

personally after actually watching episode 32 I would have to disagree with Kiba that Kira had almost no choice in finishing off Destroy, however i am not supporting the fact that Kira killed Stellar, i think it would have been much more in Kira's nature to have done a similar thing to Destroy as he did to Savior.
Well, you can argue that he tried. Destroy was not going down without a fight, and disabling the main guns was his priority. A side effect was that Destroy exploded, thus killing Stellar.

to many people here a Kira biased, its as if he is Jesus or something, only myself and Kiba are the ones saying anything against him, to fully debate you must understand the arguements against your side.
Well, since he is the ultimate human being, he is as close as we get ;)

Here are the bad points I understand about Shin:

1. He is an angsty brat - seriously though at his age I bet you where too except for one difference, he saw his sisters mutilated body, now that is going to screw up anyone in the head, i'm surprised he isn't even more of an angsty brat than he is.
Cant really say anything here...

2. well everything he does wrong basically stems from arguement 1. Shinn obvious lack of respect for others is simply caused by the fact that he thinks no-body understand him and he is the only one going through it tough, yes he is arrogant but most teenagers are, He also kills and shoots at people with no regard for human life, well if no one had the common respect not to fire at your family i'm sure you would be like that aswell and also BECAUSE ITS HIS JOB TO KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER duh!
Ok, picture this. You are enlisted in the military, they order you to kill civilians. Are you going to do it? You are a soldier are you not?

However AA are not a military force, they are militia, therefore what they are doing is wrong, firing at bothsides of a war is like putting up a flag and saying KILL ME NOW, Kira has no right, i repeat "NO RIGHT" to enter a skermish with ORB or Minerva (EA is fine because I hate them), Cagalli, Lacus, and Kira are all idealistic children who dont know what hell they are doing, stopping a war is one thing, potentially endangering soldiers and friends lives by interveaning is another.
Since when did anyone have a right to kill another human being? Kira and Co are doing their best to make sure as few as possible are being killed, and nin this case they have to try to stop both sides. Would you prefer if they for example exterminated Minerva? That would make sure as few as possible die. Everyone at Minerva but none at Orb/EA. If they had done that at the first encounter, the entire Orb fleet would have survived. There were more people at the Orb fleet than at the Minerva, so with this logic less people would die.

eg. I am totally against the war in IRAQ, but you dont see me going to IRAQ and running into the middle of a battle field holding firearms saying "STOP STOP please dont fight its not the humane thing to do"
If I had the power to stop both sides, and in the mean time be able to stay alive and protect my helpers, Im sure I would.

Mindless

06-01-2005, 02:14 PM

Hmm. Don't know what I should say. Hm... maybe something like: "Wow, even the fanboy's have the same personality as Shinn...?". :P

No, seriously though. I'm not a Kira fanboy. (see avatar/signature, if you're a fanboy/girl, you tend to have the person you're a fan of in your avatar/sig)

I'm simply stating my point. Kira was not wrong in engaging in battle with Destroy. Why? Well, as I said before: Kira, unlike Shinn, can draw a line between human lives. Kira would rather kill one (Stellar in this case) to save a thousand (the people of Berlin in this case) and on the other hand we have Shinn, who it seems would rather kill a thousand (the people of Berlin) to save one person (Stellar).

Sure, I can understand Shinn getting mad at Kira for attacking Stellar and all, but Shinn can't see the whole picture. He's too selfish, and too self-centered. He wouldn't give a shit if the whole city was destroyed, as long as Stellar was safe. I got that feeling as soon as he found out about Stellar beeing the pilot. Now, let's not dwell more around that specific topic. The past (episode 32) is the past.

I'll name some of Kira's flaws then I guess. Shinn is obviously has alot more flaws when it comes to both interacting with other people, and as a person beeing out on the battlefield.

Kira's Flaws:

#1: Kira tends to get obsessed with his whole pacifism-thingy. Like when he doubted the ORB soldiers who (obviously...) came to the Archangel because they believed the people on the Archangel were right. Kira wasn't able to see the whole picture, and narrowed everything about the ORB soldiers down to one thing: Doubt.

#2: Kira sucks ass at interacting with people, very much like Athrun, eventhough he might not show it as clearly, but he really is bad at it. I'll take the same time when Amagi and them came to the Archangel as example. When Amagi understood what Kira meant, and explained everything, and Kira apologized, he got all: "Uhm... ah... uhm..." -when they started calling him Kira-sama and saluting him. :P

Hm... what more can I say...

For me its like this:

Liking for Kira: [ |||||||||||||||| ]

That's how much I like Kira's character in overall.

Liking for Shinn: [ |||| |||||||||||| ]

That's how much I like Shinn's character in overall.

But then again, that's just my biased opinion.

3rdStrike

06-01-2005, 02:23 PM

Exactly, you don't see the remainder of the EU (excluding the UK) running to Iraq and trying to stop the war, do you? And don't say they don't have the power to carry that out if they tried, because they do. While Archangel's heart is in the right place, so far they have had no success in following through their ideals, and have not learnt from their mistakes.

And I totally agree with Jikes about Shinn's flaws, I was about to post something similar myself :P Why don't we have a similar list of Kira's flaws from one of you guys?

Flaws of Kira? here we go...

1. He feels that he is superior amongst everything. I guess, I really dislike him when he just have this power to do whatever he likes.
But what can he do. As the one who defeated Raw and Providence, he is probably the most oustanding pilot out there. It's not like things turn out any better if he didn't intervene anyway. His goal when interevning is to stop the EA and Zaft and he did it so that they are a min. casualties. If he didn't stop Minerva, the whole entire ORB fleet is going to be wiped out. If he didn't stop ORB, the Minerva would have sank into the bottom of the sea. Either way, if he didn't stop, things may have been worse.

2. He's selfish.
He is always at Cagalli's standpoint, but never at Athrun's or Shinn's. Which I sometime really hate. I mean Athrun is his best friend, and he hardly understands how much effort Athrun has put to make things better for Zaft and the Orb, at least Athrun tried to until he got *ahem* manipulated by the chairman.

3. He doesn't understand the bigger picture.
I guess this is one of his HUGEST problems. He isn't able to grasp the consequences of his actions for other people. I guess he didn't take the innitiative to even understand the different viewpoints of the EA and Zaft that Athrun was able to.

but.. i do want to add something after I compared Shinn and Kira in SEED.

2. well everything he does wrong basically stems from arguement 1. Shinn obvious lack of respect for others is simply caused by the fact that he thinks no-body understand him and he is the only one going through it tough, yes he is arrogant but most teenagers are, He also kills and shoots at people with no regard for human life, well if no one had the common respect not to fire at your family i'm sure you would be like that aswell and also BECAUSE ITS HIS JOB TO KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE HE IS A SOLDIER duh!

In other words, Shinn's just not mature enough to be a soldier! Compare to Athrun and Kira who were also kids back then at SEED and even Lunamaria and Rey, they are more mature. At least Kira felt remorseful after killing someone from every battle, at least he respected that person's life. Shinn in this case seems like everyone in this world owes him something because he lost his entire family back then and thus, he has the very right kill everyone who is in his way. He abuses the use of a Gundam. He destroy things that are merely able to harm him. Where are his morals?? No and don't tell me that he isn't able to learn morals beacuse of witnessing the death of his sister. I am sure at that time everyone lost their loved ones during the fight between Freedom and Calamity back at SEED. Thus, should these people hold a grudge at Kira? At Orb? At Cagalli and for the entire world? My Shinn really needs to grow up! He really needs to get the fact that he isn't the only one that lost his loved ones.

I could have carried on... but I'll save it for later..

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 02:30 PM

Hmm. Don't know what I should say. Hm... maybe something like: "Wow, even the fanboy's have the same personality as Shinn...?". :P

Haha, so true! I'm like Shinn+Naruto+Shuichi.

So yeah, let's stick phase-32 in the past. I've been wondering about their future together; will they join forces against Logos, or will they remain at loggerheads? Obviously we're gonna have a fair bit of Archangel vs. Minerva action for the next few eps, which will be an interesting topic for here when we see it. But how about the end of the series?

I personally think they'll team up. Kira and Shinn are both so popular (#1 and #7 in male anime character rankings respectively) that to demonize one of them could be a disaster for Bandai. But, similarly, making Shinn into a 'bad-but-good' villain, a little like Char, could work wonders as well.

Edit: Above post - you're saying Kira was a more mature soldier in the first half of SEED than Shinn was? I beg to differ; Kira was mental. He turned against his friends, went completely introvertal (is that a word? :P), had to be dragged out into battle because he was sulking in his room, and was generally as much of a brat as Shinn ever was. He changed, of course, and it's understable given that he was almost forced to fight, but I still don't think he was more of a mature soldier than Shinn is now.

3rdStrike

06-01-2005, 04:11 PM

You meant introverted, I believe. =]

I absolutely agree what you said above.
But turning against a friend has nothing to do with being a mature. You call that disloyal and unfaithful. Being introverted is one of Kira's personalities. I mean a quiet, lonely and shy solider can still be mature. You can't say that he is immature because he got dragged out of his room when he doesn't even want to fight. You call that cowardness and selfish.
Mature as in he didn't abuse the power of a Gundam. Kira completed his mission with minimum destruction or casualties possible made. He didn't abuse the power of Freedom by acknowledging the power of it. On the other hand, was it really necessary for Shinn to whipe out ORB fleets that are sinking already while people are still fleeing and can merely do any harm on him and Minerva? I mean all he can have done is to destroy all the cannons and weapons on the flagship. It was obvious that neither the ORB or Minerva can fight each other anymore when Archangel and Freedom has interevne. Forgiving is the most mature thing that one can do, I would have given Shinn my respect and admiration than to Kira if Shinn didn't take down the flagship with Todoka in it. (Think Maximus in Gladiator where he spared that person's life and won the crowd)

Son_Pan

06-01-2005, 04:50 PM

I'm coming, I'm coming! I'm not online 24/7 y'know. :P

RIIIIITE, is that why you posted in the SEED Destiny thread on the same day that Mindless' and Chillin' and those guys posted something back? is that why you were online yesterday and viewing THIS thread and didnt say anything until today?!

CASE CLOSED.

staradderdragoon

06-01-2005, 05:04 PM

Haha, so true! I'm like Shinn+Naruto+Shuichi.

So yeah, let's stick phase-32 in the past. I've been wondering about their future together; will they join forces against Logos, or will they remain at loggerheads? Obviously we're gonna have a fair bit of Archangel vs. Minerva action for the next few eps, which will be an interesting topic for here when we see it. But how about the end of the series?

I personally think they'll team up. Kira and Shinn are both so popular (#1 and #7 in male anime character rankings respectively) that to demonize one of them could be a disaster for Bandai. But, similarly, making Shinn into a 'bad-but-good' villain, a little like Char, could work wonders as well.

Edit: Above post - you're saying Kira was a more mature soldier in the first half of SEED than Shinn was? I beg to differ; Kira was mental. He turned against his friends, went completely introvertal (is that a word? :P), had to be dragged out into battle because he was sulking in his room, and was generally as much of a brat as Shinn ever was. He changed, of course, and it's understable given that he was almost forced to fight, but I still don't think he was more of a mature soldier than Shinn is now.

y do u want to stick ep 32 in the past? because it's causing u to lose the debate? lol.... anyhow, u dont think shinn is mental? he thinks to highly of himself (just like kira) and thinks that he can disobey orders.....what a noob...anyhow, i think shinn is mental, i mean he goes crazy after seeing an insane girl die, i guess that's the best shinn can do, take advantage of a psycho girl....while kira has a hot chick, not some fake sl*t...lol

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 06:49 PM

>.< Again, you two. Don't you read the thread? I wasn't the one that suggested putting ep 32 in the past. Enough has been said about it.

And Son_Pan, I'm terribly sorry for not posting every single time I come online. I do have a social life; there were friends round, and it would have been incredibly rude to sit on the PC and type a long post. I just wanted to quickly check what had been said. It's a little strange how closely you're watching me, as well. Please stop being quite so condescending; I've done nothing to you, have I? What's the point in going at me just because I like a different character than you? I don't have anything against you or staradder. As I said in the beginning of this thread - don't take dislike to a character as dislike to yourself. That's silly. I'm trying to have a lively, fun, mature discussion here and you're spamming up my thread.

I don't want to make enemies out of you. Please, drop it, and be a little more accepting of other's tastes in the future, ne? ^_^

staradderdragoon

06-01-2005, 07:13 PM

okokokokok.....i'll stop harassing you...but its obvious, there are more kira fans than shinn fans and since this is a debate, if u dont support urself, then U LOSE!!!(j/k) but yeah. lol.

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 07:29 PM

Thank you. Back on topic, PM me if you having anything more to say on the above. I still wanna hear from Son_Pan ^_^

Mature as in he didn't abuse the power of a Gundam. Kira completed his mission with minimum destruction or casualties possible made. He didn't abuse the power of Freedom by acknowledging the power of it. On the other hand, was it really necessary for Shinn to whipe out ORB fleets that are sinking already while people are still fleeing and can merely do any harm on him and Minerva? I mean all he can have done is to destroy all the cannons and weapons on the flagship. It was obvious that neither the ORB or Minerva can fight each other anymore when Archangel and Freedom has interevne. Forgiving is the most mature thing that one can do, I would have given Shinn my respect and admiration than to Kira if Shinn didn't take down the flagship with Todoka in it. (Think Maximus in Gladiator where he spared that person's life and won the crowd)

I agree with you there - this is all because Shinn is the 'berserker', I guess. We don't know anything about that, but perhaps he acted that way because of something else within him, and not out of conscious choice. Looking forward to finding out more about that.
I've been wondering about their future together; will they join forces against Logos, or will they remain at loggerheads? Obviously we're gonna have a fair bit of Archangel vs. Minerva action for the next few eps, which will be an interesting topic for here when we see it. But how about the end of the series?

I personally think they'll team up. Kira and Shinn are both so popular (#1 and #7 in male anime character rankings respectively) that to demonize one of them could be a disaster for Bandai. But, similarly, making Shinn into a 'bad-but-good' villain, a little like Char, could work wonders as well.

Discuss. ^_^

Chillin

06-01-2005, 07:36 PM

I really think they are saving all of Shinn's development for the very end, where he will realize that what he is doing is wrong. He will break away from fighting with Kira, meaning he will break his destiny (seems like Dullindal is just setting him up to try and get rid of Kira) and stop whatever piece of space debris or giant space weapon that EA and ZAFT have aimed at each other. Destroying Dullindal's little game of chess he's playing with everyone.

staradderdragoon

06-01-2005, 07:40 PM

so you mean like shinn will develop like kira? i mean kira practically died, and then came back all superior....but what is this grudge that dullindal has agaisnt kira...maybe he is using shinn as a puppet to kill kira...for some reason, i dont think the EA has the capacity to build a gigantic weapon without zaft knowing. if they did it on earth, it would be obvious and would rip the atmosphere apart. but apart from that, i hate how gundam seed destiny is going. i wish that either the episodes were longer or something...im too impatient to see how shinn will develop into a true berserker like kira....

Kiba-kun

06-01-2005, 07:50 PM

Me too, I can see Shinn having a Kamille/Kira type sudden character change and I want it to come faster >.< Shinn's 'berserker' quality really intrigues me.

Chillin's post makes plenty of sense. There's no reason why that wouldn't happen; but there's still the fact that Shinn is way more angry, vengeful and destructive than the other two ever were. He still has the capacity to 'go evil', IMO, but judging from past series this is pretty unlikely. Shame, really; it'd be great. We'll probably have Rey siding with Gilbert, meaning there's plenty of angst with him and Shinn on opposite sides. Perhaps Kira will end up having to kill Rey, sending Shinn into one of his trademark frenzies.

I guess while I want to see Shinn change, he'll probably lose some of his appeal for me when he does. I like him being a breath of fresh air from the loftiness (a made up word if there ever was one) of the other characters. Oh well. ^_^;

Chillin

06-01-2005, 07:59 PM

I'd much rather see how Athrun and Infinite Justice would fair against Legend Gundam, as Kira has already encountered a very similar mobile suit already and beat it. I know Providence is weaker than Legend, but Kira will still have Strike Freedom to match it. I don't want to see that again. Rey siding with Dullindal is a given, I just hope he doesn't go all psycho though. If he does he might as well sing his swan song, because Shinn will probably kill him and then seriously regret having to do that to a friend he spents years with.

kenshin329

06-01-2005, 09:45 PM

i think they make kira look like the bad guy too much in this series they all blame him cause so much people died even tho its not really his fault. He is just trying to protect everyone and he didnt even killed one person in yet except stellar but that was only cause he had to if he didnt shinn and kira would both died. I dont think Neo is the bad guy in this series either because we didnt really see his opinion in this war he was just following order from that one guy. I think he was really gonna let stellar stop fighting after the battle with the Destroy gundam because he said she had to fight just one more time.

Inquisitor

06-01-2005, 10:09 PM

My oh my, I go to work for a day and the Shinn defenders resurface in all their angst-laden glory ;)

They didn't actually do a hell of a lot. Kira just kinda flitted around and annoyed Neo and Sting; he provoked a couple of shots from Destroy at him instead of the city, but nothing too major. The only notable thing was Cagalli defending those civilians, and that's not Kira, ne? :p

So the possible lives saved by Kira are not major, and the lives saved by Cagalli don't count in this conversation?

So surely the action that saves the most lives is stopping Destroy ASAP? Kira's being there prolonged the assault and provoked more attacks. If he wasn't there, Destroy would have been stopped MUCH quicker; that I'm fairly sure of. After that, I'm just hoping that Neo can do something about her.

Huh? Destroy was attacking everything. For the entire time that Shinn was there Destroy was still attacking things. Sure he calmed her down for a little while, but that was only after they both realize who was who, and even then Destroy was only around for a few more moments.

Who was it that defeated Destroy? Kira. Who was it that slowed Destroy down? That would be Shinn. But since Destroy stopping (when Shinn talks to Stellar) and its destruction, were only moments apart, I don't see how your point holds any water.

Again, see above. Archangel didn't distract Destroy enough to make a difference, and I believe that the lives saved by Cagalli etc don't balance with the lives taken with the angry attacks Kira provoked from Destroy.

Methinks you are scewing things in order to fit your own point of view. There is no way of knowing how many lives Destroy would've annihilated had not Freedom been there. Have you not seen the power of Destroy? Did you not see what it did when Kira wasn't around? It was doing what it always did. If you are referring to the final blasts of Destroy when it attacks after Stellar again sees Kira, think of this: what if Kira had been absent the entire time and Destroy had focussed everything on the city.

Also, it seems to me that you are disregarding the lives saved by Cagalli and company, as if they have no meaning because they do not jibe with your argument.

Djibril, actually, IMO. Neo's lovely really...he's just following orders. *clutches onto Mwu pictures and cries*

I seem to recall the "just following orders" excuse from somewhere...oh yes, many Nazis used that excuse. Of course Neo isn't a Nazi, he is just following a bigotted megalomaniac (oh wait). And if Neo is Mwu, I will launch a ballistic missile at Bandai headquarters.
(If I somehow offended people by indirectly comparing Neo to a Nazi, know that it was merely a poorly intended joke)

Comparing the numbers of lives saved by Archangel before Minerva showed up and the numbers of lives taken by attacks Freedom caused from Destroy is what I mean; these numbers don't exist, so we can't really take that any further.

Umm, Destroy was attacking with all its attention on destroying stuff before Kira showed up. Afterwards, Kira drew a lot of fire, some of which caused further damage. Part of my point was that Destroy, by focussing some of its attention on Kira took some of its focus off the city and ZAFT troops, thus causing fewer deaths (or so logic would follow).

START RANT: So far there is only Kiba-Kun and myself, that is hardly a brigade, are you trying to put us on the same level of the sasuke fanboys of yore? if you look at the numbers we are highly outnumbered to the "ultimate coordinator" fanboys and fangirls so obviously flooding this area of the forum, go on look at the Shinn Asuka fanclub which is on like page 8 of its respective section, there are like 5 members!: END RANT

Dude, I was being hyperbolic. A brigade has hundreds of people in it (if memory serves), and I know for a fact that Shinn doesn't have nearly that many fans anywhere ;)

Piekage

06-01-2005, 10:34 PM

Everyone has some intresting thoughts. Anyway, I'm hoping for some character development for Shinn. So far, he's been an intresting character, but a little annoying. I'm eager to see how he reacts to Stellers death. Will he take some time and think, or react in anger and throw down with Kira. I've been waiting for those two to fight since the begining. Either way, should be entertaining.

Baka-Sama

06-01-2005, 11:43 PM

Jikes

06-02-2005, 02:30 AM

yayayayayayay! go Kira fans! man with this whole debate going on i cant find anything smart to say. GO INQUISTOR,CHILLIN, AND MINDLESS! DEFEND KIRA! i cant really say anything cause i cant come up with enough smart words to make my post count. lol =P so for all u pplz who are Kira fans and haf a huge vocabulary, come here and defend Kira!~!!!!

EDIT: i might post later on if things realli are getting serious. or if Kiba says anything that i HUGELY disagree with.

WTF...please, we dont need anymore rabid kira fanboys flooding the thread :smile-big, i'm pretty sure most of the smart ones are already here anyway.

jeeze, almost everyone here is bring up very good points, for a moment I thought none of you guys could see from the other person's point of view.

I know Shinn's character is flawed, but that is simply his character, if he was like Kira or Arthrun what would be the point in having him as a character, he is somewhat a protagonist and antagonist combined, he himslef is his own worst enemy, this is what makes him different, there is no point questioning what he has done as it cannot be changed (yeah i know this is asking for too much). Kira and Shinn I feel start from different places in relation to character but end up in a similar place.
look at it this way:
KIRA: wimp --------------> a mature person
SHIN: arsehole -----------> a mature person

we shouldn't be judging people by the way they used to be but rather the way they are (in shinn's case, how his character is near the end of GSD).

look at it this way: would you rather be judged by the way you were acting 5 years ago, or the way you are acting now?

NOTE: Yes i understand that at this very moment Shinn's character is still very flawed, but he hasn't had 50+ episodes for development like Kira has.

3rdStrike

06-02-2005, 07:54 AM

Er...I was comparing Shinn's level of maturity with Kira's in first half in SEED... isn't it logical to do so?

Besides, if we wait till Shinn to develop or at the very end of DESTINY, then this thread here created by Kiba-Kun is kind of useless for now. ALSO, the purpose of this thread is for HARDCORE POINTFUL BASHING FOR BOTH CHARACTERS... so does it really matter?

Anyway, probably the Shinn at this point is less favourable but I'm sure he will eventually win the audience at the end of GSD. Man, if Shinn pulled an Anakin Skywalker, just like others said on the other thread, I would have love him to death.

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 08:22 AM

the lives saved by Cagalli don't count in this conversation?
They do for the overall picture; but this is a Shinn vs Kira thread, ne?
Huh? Destroy was attacking everything. For the entire time that Shinn was there Destroy was still attacking things. Sure he calmed her down for a little while, but that was only after they both realize who was who, and even then Destroy was only around for a few more moments.

Who was it that defeated Destroy? Kira. Who was it that slowed Destroy down? That would be Shinn. But since Destroy stopping (when Shinn talks to Stellar) and its destruction, were only moments apart, I don't see how your point holds any water.
If Kira wasn't there, Destroy would have been stopped and it would have stayed stopped. Shinn calmed her down completely, and could have probably got her out of there if Kira wasn't there to scare her into action again. So, his presence caused that massive attack I keep going on about; so, if he wasn't there, it would have been Shinn that stopped Destroy completely and Berlin would be thanking him for preventing the most deadly attack.
Methinks you are scewing things in order to fit your own point of view. There is no way of knowing how many lives Destroy would've annihilated had not Freedom been there. Have you not seen the power of Destroy? Did you not see what it did when Kira wasn't around? It was doing what it always did. If you are referring to the final blasts of Destroy when it attacks after Stellar again sees Kira, think of this: what if Kira had been absent the entire time and Destroy had focussed everything on the city.
Of course I'm skewing; I'm a biased, Shinn-like kinda guy! But I still think I have a point. Kira, after seeing the Gottfried stopped by Destroy's beam shield, still decided it was a good idea to attack with all of his beam weapons, which deflected off and caused massive damage to the city - twice! Again, he just doesn't learn from his mistakes. He distracted Destroy a little; but he mostly diverted the attention of Sting and Neo, as well as Destroy's hands (which were by no means its only weapons).
I seem to recall the "just following orders" excuse from somewhere...oh yes, many Nazis used that excuse. Of course Neo isn't a Nazi, he is just following a bigotted megalomaniac (oh wait). And if Neo is Mwu, I will launch a ballistic missile at Bandai headquarters.
Agreed on all points...it's a shame, but it seems fairly certain that he is Mwu now. And y'know...I'm a Mwu fan too, and I don't want him to be the bad guy. >.<

Umm, Destroy was attacking with all its attention on destroying stuff before Kira showed up. Afterwards, Kira drew a lot of fire, some of which caused further damage. Part of my point was that Destroy, by focussing some of its attention on Kira took some of its focus off the city and ZAFT troops, thus causing fewer deaths (or so logic would follow).
Yes, but methinks he actually caused more attacks than he prevented. Archangel took out both Sting and Neo. This made Stellar go absolutely mental and level the surrounding city with her positron cannon. Shinn couldn't have taken them both down on his own - so what if they both weren't taken down, and Neo allowed Shinn to stop Stellar? That would have saved far more lives, IMO, because Destroy wouldn't have been allowed to carry through its most powerful attacks.

Another thing - Shinn's piloting skills seemed to me to be far, far superior to Kira's here. If he didn't know Stellar was inside, he would have taken out Destroy within a a few minutes of entering the battlefield; he just needed one more shot and it would have been down. Kira's method of trying the same attack, which never worked, over and over again just didn't cut it for me.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 11:38 AM

Anyway, probably the Shinn at this point is less favourable but I'm sure he will eventually win the audience at the end of GSD. Man, if Shinn pulled an Anakin Skywalker, just like others said on the other thread, I would have love him to death.

holy cow. that would be insane. if it turns out that he's another ultimate pilot or something then that would be awesome. it would create a huge twist in GSD. on the thought of that, there haven't been any twists yet have there? but like i said, the creators (i think) are draggin GSD out to long....AHHHH!!!!!!......i dont have the patience to see the kira vs. shinn fight....but ppl r right, maybe kira will get "served" this time around....lol

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 11:56 AM

IMO Im pretty sure that Shinn could beat Kira now.
I mean back during episode 23 when Kira owned everyone was not because just of Kira's skills, but was also that no one knew how to exactly approach this type of opponent that Kira was. Since then everyone has sorta adapted now, an example would be when Chaos got too close to Freedom in ep 28 which ended in Chaos getting its arms and funnels severed. When we see Chaos fight Kira in the recent episode Chaos kept his distance and used his beam rifles.
Same thing with Shinn, in episode 23 Impulse got his arm chopped off whilst using the beam rifle. In the recent ep he used a beam sabre to attack Freedom which proved more effective for him, and Shinn is better with that than a beam rifle.
Even though Shinn's pilot skills isnt at the same level as Kira's although its proberly getting close now, what gives Shinn the advantage is that he can gain acess to all the details of the Freedom Gundam which he can therefore get himself prepared. Shinn wants to Kill Kira which gives him an advantage over Kira wanting to disable Shinn.

By the way is Shinn sorta copying Kira's style of fighting?

Chillin

06-02-2005, 12:10 PM

It is true Shinn has the advantage when they fight. If Kira cuts or blows his head, legs, or arms off Shinn can just get replacement parts flown to him. Kira will be aiming for those spots because he doesn't want to kill Shinn. Shinn, on the other hand doesn't give a crap. Kira really doesn't deserve Shinn's hatred (unless he killed his parents though that would have been an accident as well), but since Shinn is so simple-minded he really needs someone to take out his unwarranted aggression on.

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 12:22 PM

Chillin

06-02-2005, 12:28 PM

Unwarranted? Kira did (apparently and inadvertedly) kill his family, and his little girlfriend. I don't think somehow his aggression is unwarranted.

One thing I noticed thanks to O-ushi is Shinn was checking up on Destroy's data (how he got it God only knows) and has probably done the same with Freedoms. Kira can't/hasn't, which gave Shinn a definate advantage against Destroy and in the future against Freedom. Shinn seems to be a little more analytical than Kira; he studies the battlefield (before he goes Berserker, anyway) whereas Kira tends act impulsively and just blast with all he has. Shinn knows things like the correct Silhouette to use at the correct time etc. Kira made mistakes with Striker packs in Seed, if I remember correctly.

His family? Yes, even if it is an accident that still would warrant some kind of hatred. Stellar? No, Kira didn't just attack her for no reason, she wasn't defenseless and she was about to fire again killing more people including possibly Shinn and Kira. Kira also never made mistakes with Striker packs in Seed, Mwu did. Give him some credit, sheesh :eyeroll

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 12:31 PM

Yup. About Gundams, although the old Freedom Gundam still has an edge over the current "Second Stage" generation of gundams such as Impulse and Saviour, they can still hold there own. I mean I dont think that Saviour wouldnt have gotten chopped in to pieces the way it did if Kira hadnt hit Athrun mentally about cagalli situation during their fight. :P
Though most of you might say that isnt a good enough excuse right? :laugh

About kira making mistakes with Striker packs, he did that plenty of times. Remember when he first fought on the desert he used the Blast pack? He later realized that he needed more mobility than fire power, so the next time he used the Aile Pack. :laugh he had to go through it hard way.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 12:32 PM

yeah. but that was seed. kira was still noob at the time...chillin is definitely right, shinn has such a large advantage. if you want, u can compare it to the original asuran and kira fight. kira didnt want to kill asuran (even though he said he did, i doubt it. if he did, he would go crazy) but asuran wanted to kill kira. that's why the fight lasted so long. (i cant get over the fact that chillin called shinn simple-minded...lol) anyhow, liike i said before, shinn doesnt know how to go into berserker mode at will, and when he's not that, i dont think he can beat kira who's the ultimate coordinator and a true bererker. however, shinn does have the ability to beat kira if he is in berserker mode just because while kira is all calm and trying to defend himslef, shinn is going insane with the killing intent. and yes, he can replace anypart of impulse and will only get the minor parts destroyed because of kira's attitude. but, one thing i notice, how come people dont just shoot the parts as they fly out of the minerva. that would be bye bye to impulse...i noticed that since the beginning...lol

Chillin

06-02-2005, 12:38 PM

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 12:41 PM

That would be great if they did interupt Impulse joining together. Though its more likely we could have Impulse being prevented from connecting to a Sillhouette pack. They did it plenty of times in Gundam before, when Gundam MkII is prevented from joining with the G-Deflector to form Super Gundam in Z-Gundam comes to mind.
(Ive been watching Z-Gundam its great! I find it so funny how Zeta Gundam and Saviour Gundam are so identical. :laugh )

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 12:44 PM

Chillin

06-02-2005, 12:44 PM

That would be great if they did interupt Impulse joining together or prevent Impulse from connecting to pack. They did it plenty of times in Gundam before, when Gundam MkII is prevented from joining with the G-Deflector to form Super Gundam in Z-Gundam comes to mind.
(Ive been watching Z-Gundam its great! I find it so funny how Zeta Gundam and Saviour Gundam are so identical. :laugh )

Ah yeah I completely forgot about that :laugh

I guess Zeta and Savior are somewhat identical. I think the Murasames look more similar to Zeta though. Their plane mode looks just like Zeta's wave rider mode. Someone may interrupt Impulse from joining together, but not while Shinn pilots it. Lunamaria might get so unlucky.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 12:49 PM

zeta gundam and saviour? in waht ways? h/o, does zeta use the core fighter system? c'mon, lunamaria is a girl, so give her a break (its obvious that guys are better pilots than girls.....maybe....i dunno....lol)

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 12:50 PM

Slightly off topic, but yeah, Zeta and Savior are pretty similar. Just like Impulse is like Strike Mk.II.

It would be quite interesting if someone stopped Impulse from joining, and we had some Core Splendor fighting action. We've only see Shinn use it in combat for a split second in the opening episode, and it would be cool to see him use it again. Perhaps Kira will destroy the rest of Impulse and he'll use the core to deliver the final blow? It was great when they used Impulse well going through that canyon in episode 18 or there abouts. I'd like to see more things along those lines.

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 01:05 PM

Thats a great tactic for Shinn to use. Impulse grabs Freedom with the legs, discconects the legs then let them self distruct whilst Shinn happily gets another pair of legs for Impulse from Minerva. :laugh

Chillin

06-02-2005, 01:10 PM

Regardless of whether Kira rightfully killed her or not, Shinn still has that in his mind against Kira. In his eyes, Kira murdered Stellar. He'll think that Kira provoked her unnecessarily after he stopped her, and so from his point of view he has every right to be angry.

Ah yes in his mind, but if he really were to step back and look at the whole picture his hatred is not so justifiable (no one does this anyway). I mean I guess he could clearly see her about to fire again for practically no reason, but it's not like Kira shoved his beam saber in Destroy for practically no reason. If anyone was clearly provoked it was Kira. But I guess since Shinn harbors feelings for this one individual and not the thousands and thousands she's killed and would have continued to kill had she not been stopped in the name of scary people everywhere that it's ok (really it's ok). In his mind it was Kira who clearly provoked Stellar which is fine because that is the type of person Shinn is. I don't see Kira going out and creating drama like he did in Seed, so Shinn fills that much needed void even if I don't particularly care for his "type" of drama.

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 01:14 PM

Read my above ramblings for fanboy-comebacks to the your post, Chillin XD

There's so many awesome tactics Shinn could try with the many-pieced Impulse, but he's too angry to even think of them XD

Chillin

06-02-2005, 01:23 PM

Read my above ramblings for fanboy-comebacks to the your post, Chillin XD

There's so many awesome tactics Shinn could try with the many-pieced Impulse, but he's too angry to even think of them XD

Fanboy comebacks? :evil I KNEW IT!

I don't think he's too angry to think of it, rather even Shinn wouldn't be that wreckless with equipment knowing he can take them down by staying in one piece and slashing away. An opportunity really has not presented itself where he's had to think of anything but combining and killing. Freedom might do that though

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 01:40 PM

Chillin

06-02-2005, 01:47 PM

OH NOES!!11 I have given myself away. Oh well. Let the flamings and 'dude thats rong!11one' begin.

The one example I can think of is when he detached the Blast pack against Auel to give him the mobility he needed to save himself and deliver the finishing blow. But I have a feeling he's gonna be so hyped up against Kira he'll just slash with intense speed, overwhelming Kira. I don't think he'll be stopping and thinking of some shifty plan.

Heh heh, you know I was just playing.

I think if he doesn't come up with a plan he will eventually stop fighting with Kira towards the end and actually help him and Athrun stop whatever super weapon there is. If he is devilish enough to come up with a plan, then we might be seeing the makings of a little titan at work here. Though knowing the usual trend of development for characters it won't go that way. I actually hope the ending goes somewhat like how I said it would yesterday.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 01:50 PM

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 01:50 PM

I'd like him to remain against Kira and Athrun; it won't happen, but that's what I'd like. The rivalry and differences between Archangel and Minerva make for a great story, and it'll be sad when that's all over. But, knowing them, they'll have something equally awesome to take over.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 01:52 PM

won't they join up? i mean talia knows that AA isnt with EA...and in episode 32, she said, dont mistaken them for the enemy....

Chillin

06-02-2005, 01:58 PM

the only thing i've ever seen that's close to the tactic u were talking about is in SEED when Kira droped his shield to distract an opponent and shot them from the top....anyhow, impulse isnt many pieced, its only 3 pieces....not including the silhoutte...lol, the debate is getting more fiesty....lol (fan boy comebacks....wtf?)

Amuro also did something like that in Char's Counterattack. When I saw Kira do it I thought of that exact scene from CCA.

I think when Shinn stops fighting Kira and Athrun he will have showed a very mature side of himself very much like how Kira was after he got Freedom and onward in to Seed Destiny. Somebody was saying that Kira and Shinn will eventually end up in the same place in terms of development. I would have to agree with that. It's just that Shinn is taking a long time to even show hints of change. Unless they plan on making the guy dark and evil. But I don't see them doing that by giving him everything he wants, and him learning nothing that would not be a proper resolution to this series.

Some of the spoilers have even said some in the Minerva question the orders to pursue AA, and why the top brass at ZAFT wants to get rid of them so badly.

Kiba-kun

06-02-2005, 02:04 PM

The people that question the orders will probably be Talia and Athrun, who have both expressed serious displeasure at being pitted against Archangel.

We all know Shinn will eventually become all goody-two-shoes like Kira, but when? He's slower at it than Kira was. And also:
Will he get all messed up at the end, like Kamille? That would actually destroy me. >.<
That also raises the question of who is Scirocco's Destiny equivalent. Djibril?

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 03:13 PM

Well Djibril is the guy that pull the strings in the EA just like Scirrocco. We just havnt seen Djibril actually take part in a battle yet.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 03:25 PM

is djibril th guy heading the logos?

who's djibril again?

Chillin

06-02-2005, 04:42 PM

Going by his looks and attitude I don't think Djibril can pilot a mobile suit, but who knows? I mean when we first saw Scirocco he was in a mobile suit, so we already knew he could get down. If there is a Scirocco type there has got to be a Haman type, and that's probably Dullindal. Though we already knew that Haman wasn't the type to be trusted from the start. I know AA and Minerva can't be beating the crap out of each other for the remainder of the show, so someone has to step up and be the bad guy/girl.

antoine

06-02-2005, 05:52 PM

wow never knew forums about such things could be so interesting...anyways

regarding kira vs shinn...
comparing the 2...kira is fueled by his will to protect...shinn is fueled by his anger
we've seen in fights that kira feels he is superior and is suprised when he didnt take down shinn as easily as he did before...but it is only right to have a positive mindset while going into battle.

shinn is just like kira in seed but you can substitute the influence of fllay with the death of his family

If there is a case in which Lacus and/or Cagalli are in danger and Shinn is involved, I, for one, feel there is no way in hell Shinn could defeat Kira. If for instance Cagalli was to return to orb and since lacus is already gone, there is a slight possibility that Shinn could defeat Kira.

O-ushi

06-02-2005, 06:57 PM

If Kira were to lose someone else really important, Im guessing he would go more insane than Shinn did when he lost his familly and Stellar.

Baka-Sama

06-02-2005, 07:41 PM

ummm i'll have to disagree with that. in episode 49 ,or 50, he saw Fllay die right b4 his eyes. he didnt go all beserk and crazy like Shinn would haf been. he was just a little ticked off and crying while fighting Providence. though i must say, when he saw......ummmmmm......ahhhhhhh...wats his name again? hmmm well let just call him Mirialla's boyfriend. anyway when he saw Mirialla boyfriend die in the previous episode of SEED. he did go all beserk and EXTREMLY ticked off. but now if u compare him back then and now he has grown very mature. though i am curious to see Shinn's progress in his mental growth

Chopstickx

06-02-2005, 08:18 PM

OK, i just sat here and read through every single post in this thread. so i guess im good enough to post now right? =p and dont worry im not some crazy Kira fangirl...

hmm lets see most of the people who had a lotta good points/arguments IMO were Inquisitor and Chillin. Mindless's post was good too. but i repped you 3 nonetheless.

Kiba, i gotta give you props for defending Shinn with all your power for this long, but i still think you had a lotta flaws in your posts. hmm, at this one part of the thread, it was like you shot a missle at Kira defenders and they retaliated with 2 missles, and then you can only shoot back 1 puny one. well thats what i thought.

nonetheless you all had some good points, just some more than others =p

Son_Pan

06-02-2005, 08:40 PM

sexxy signature Gotnoodles. and, ey, i aint no kira fangurl either.....i'm a cloud fangurl. LOLZ!! u kno what im sayin, gotnoodles!!

so anyways, i too have read you peoples post your thoughts.

and you can take that shit with u and ur lil fruity self, kiba.

anyways, i also noticed that in the recent episode of SEED, that right before shinn was standing in front of Destory, screaming at Stellar, and Stellar screaming (pointless scene, really) Kira sees how Shinn isnt going to move, when Stellar is clearly about to blast him to pieces, so i noticed how kira basicly saved Shinn's ass in the process of stoping Destroy. just wanted to make a note of that. i dont believe that Stellar would have stoped the attack, if kira hadn't done something. all shinn was doing was going "STELLAR!!!!!!" and Stellar was going "AHHHH!!!"

so what if shinn stoped stellar? and he used his 'words' to calm her down? very unlikely, she was charging that blast up for awhile, i dont think it would be stoped so easily at the rate it was going.

staradderdragoon

06-02-2005, 10:10 PM

well, even if kira didnt do anything, stellar would have gone crazy just by seeing freedom (well, she did...);i dont see whats shinn's problem...it was all stellar's fault...what, is he going to support stellar by saying that it was ok for her to take out the city in like 10 minutes? if he is developing, i think his maturation is way slower than kira's...not good at all...it might take a new gundam before he actually matures like kira....

Kiba-kun

06-03-2005, 04:17 AM

and you can take that shit with u and ur lil fruity self, kiba.
Thank you for that, your clever comment means a lot to me. :) I'll just go report that now.

Perhaps the Haman type could be Meer? :P A bit of a long shot, I know, but there's got to be more to this girl. She's done bugger-all for the plot so far, and I can't believe they'd just have a character there to look pretty.

Point out the flaws, Chopstickx ^_^ Then I will defend with all my Shinn-loving might!

MechaTC

06-03-2005, 04:39 AM

cut out the flaming please. you don't want to get yourselves in trouble now, do you?

Jujubie

06-03-2005, 05:40 AM

Man, I can't wait for the next weeks to pass by quickly because I cannot bare watching Kira loose to Shinn! Cuz of that, I'll prolly stop watching GSD for 8 weeks and hope that in the end, Kira and Athrun puts a ton of sense into Shinn. Stop fighting AA and Minerva! Just be friends!

3rdStrike

06-03-2005, 08:31 AM

^Hahhahaha. OMG that's what happened to me when someone said Cagalli was going to be MIAed in on of the eps. But haha NO.

Don't know why, but I don't see Shinn befriending Kira though or vice versa. Think of Shinn's standpoint. Kira, this guy killed his family and killed Stellar. Kira literally took away every single thing that Shinn had! Will you befriend someone who killed your entire family and your girlfriend? Even if he understands that Stellar's death is inevitable and that his family died was an accident doesn't mean that he as a normal human who has normal emotions (fuck, i need to come up with some better vocabs), can really forgive Kira. Even if sense was put into Shinn, the most he can do is end his will to kill Kira (fuck, i RLY need to do somethng with my vocab) not befriend him. To me, the only reason why Shinn will join forces with Kira is because Shinn is forced to by his own belief - but that's when he finally get what's going on and that he's fighting for what he believe is right.

I hope I make sense. Sorry for the poor vocab. Word block this morning.

Baka-Sama

06-03-2005, 11:10 AM

Shinn and Kira joining forces? fat chance in that happening. i mean is Shinn doesnt stop this whole revenge thingy and realize wats happening then i realli think he's gonna pull a Anikin Skywalker on all of us.

ps. lol im posting this while im doing my science report at school.

staradderdragoon

06-03-2005, 12:18 PM

no, shinn and kira have to join forces if GSD is really going to parallel seed...shinn will probably first go insane, and then realize that hes insane after kira owns him or the other way around....i dunno...

zuhair

06-03-2005, 12:27 PM

damn kira...shinn gonna win totally lolololololo...go shinn ur always the best

O-ushi

06-03-2005, 04:05 PM

I keep thinking that Shinn is going to eventually get his mind messed up really badly, and end up becoming Gilberts personal tool.
I hope am wrong.

Chopstickx

06-03-2005, 09:09 PM

Point out the flaws, Chopstickx ^_^ Then I will defend with all my Shinn-loving might!
like Inquistor said back to you, it looks like you were just twistin' everything around to fit your points.

I keep thinking that Shinn is going to eventually get his mind messed up really badly, and end up becoming Gilberts personal tool.
I hope am wrong.
i thought that was Rey's job =0

Inquisitor

06-03-2005, 11:20 PM

I really ought to rep several people for making excellent posts in this thread....

Anyway, sorry for not posting yesterday, but I was tired from work, and I needed to rest my Shinn-bashing powers. As a Republican, character assassination is my specialty ;) But I will analyze Shinn in a little while; first I gotta respond to Kiba-kun.

They do for the overall picture; but this is a Shinn vs Kira thread, ne?

Well, the dispute over the lives saved by Cagalli and co. goes back to the central Destiny thread where this argument originated, and so I thought it merited a reply, especially since the AA was a part of the battle. Moreover, Kira and the AA are on the same side and were acting in tandem. So I think it bears some significance to this conversation.

If Kira wasn't there, Destroy would have been stopped and it would have stayed stopped. Shinn calmed her down completely, and could have probably got her out of there if Kira wasn't there to scare her into action again. So, his presence caused that massive attack I keep going on about; so, if he wasn't there, it would have been Shinn that stopped Destroy completely and Berlin would be thanking him for preventing the most deadly attack.

First of all, you don't really know if Destroy's last attack was the most deadly, secondly, you don't know how much damage Destroy would have done if Kira had not been fighting it.

Also, your statement begs the question: then what? What would Shinn do with Stellar? Take her back to the Minerva? You said he would have been able to "get her out of there" had Kira not been around. But, did not Shinn take Stellar back with him before? I am afraid you are missing an important part of the story: Stellar is doomed to die. She couldn't live a normal life. It is tragic, but that's how it is (or perhaps I should say "was").

Of course I'm skewing; I'm a biased, Shinn-like kinda guy! But I still think I have a point. Kira, after seeing the Gottfried stopped by Destroy's beam shield, still decided it was a good idea to attack with all of his beam weapons, which deflected off and caused massive damage to the city - twice! Again, he just doesn't learn from his mistakes. He distracted Destroy a little; but he mostly diverted the attention of Sting and Neo, as well as Destroy's hands (which were by no means its only weapons).

I am afraid such details of the battle are getting a little foggy for me, but I think you are operating from too narrow a perspective. You are looking at things from hind sight, and so some actions, such as the particulars of Kira's battle tactics, will appear incorrect, but in the context of the situation what other choice did Kira have other than to fight? If Kira had chosen not to fight, then he would be in the wrong for not using his powers to help othes. Also, Shinn himself deployed with every intention of defeating Destroy; he even dealt damage to it. At the time, battling was the right thing to do. Another thing is that we are talking about war: wars have unintended casualities. The difference between those inflicted by Kira and those inflicted by Stellar is that Stellar had every intention of blowing as much stuff up as possible. Kira just wanted to save people.

Another thing - Shinn's piloting skills seemed to me to be far, far superior to Kira's here. If he didn't know Stellar was inside, he would have taken out Destroy within a a few minutes of entering the battlefield; he just needed one more shot and it would have been down. Kira's method of trying the same attack, which never worked, over and over again just didn't cut it for me.

Again, the details of the battle are foggy to me. But, to be fair, Stellar was very much focussed on Kira, and in all likelihood it was inadvertedly leaving itself open to Shinn. Then again, I would have to re-watch the episode to give you a better reply.

So, now that I have responded to Kiba-kun, I am going to go into some detail about Shinn and Stellar.

If we examine what Stellar has said throughout the series, it becomes clear that she is obsessed with death. She is scared of it. Now this is important because when she was about to die, she said "Shinn protect Stellar?" or some such thing. She followed it up by saying "Shinn...I love you." Clearly the meaning here is that she loved Shinn because of the protection he offered.

When I considered this, I came to a realization: Shinn desires to power in order to defend his loved ones. Who can imagine how useless he felt when his family was killed? Perhaps he saw protecting Stellar as way of making up for the weakness he felt years ago when he watched migthy mobile suits destroy his loved ones. However, if one goes along with this analysis one also realizes that Shinn is stuck in the past. He cannot get over the great tragedy of his life. The situation with Stellar reinforces those feelings of sorrow.

Yet, considering the parallels between protecting Stellar and Shinn's likely feelings of uselessness over his family's death, Shinn has not shown any willingness to grow beyond the past. Instead he has been allowing all of his frustration to fester and so he has become a very angry and abrasive person. Who's fault is this? Ultimately it rests with Shinn. He has the freedom to change himself, but instead he allows the circumstances of his life to mould his destiny.

Kiba-kun

06-04-2005, 06:00 AM

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Inquisitor again" >.<
I wish I had people like you on my side XD
I'll respond, but we've pretty much annihilated episode 32 now...hopefully the next ep will give more bash-fodder.

First of all, you don't really know if Destroy's last attack was the most deadly, secondly, you don't know how much damage Destroy would have done if Kira had not been fighting it.
Of course, but I can make educated guesses. That last attack was HUGE. It only used it twice - once to wipe out the whole ZAFT military stationed there and once against the city. If it can wipe out a military garrison for a capital city in one go, I don't think I'd be stretching it too far to say it was the most powerful attack Destroy could do.
As for the damage Destroy would have done if Kira wasn't there - harder to call. She would probably just walk around shooting at targets that caught her eye, like the end of ep 31, before Kira turned up. When he arrived, she became much more aggravated (sp?), and began to use higher-level attacks.
Also, your statement begs the question: then what? What would Shinn do with Stellar? Take her back to the Minerva? You said he would have been able to "get her out of there" had Kira not been around. But, did not Shinn take Stellar back with him before? I am afraid you are missing an important part of the story: Stellar is doomed to die. She couldn't live a normal life. It is tragic, but that's how it is (or perhaps I should say "was").
Possibly true about her being doomed to die; there are ways I can think of to get around that, but perhaps I'm just thinking like Shinn again XD. But, the fact that Shinn would have been able to take her away from Destroy is fairly significant: it won't be able to attack again! Neo stated that Sting did not have what it required to pilot it, and so taking her away from it meant that Destroy was stopped, and could have been destroyed without her in it, and that there was at least SOME chance of saving her. And even if there wasn't, she could have died peacefully with Shinn, and he wouldn't have any anger against Kira for it.
Again, the details of the battle are foggy to me. But, to be fair, Stellar was very much focussed on Kira, and in all likelihood it was inadvertedly leaving itself open to Shinn. Then again, I would have to re-watch the episode to give you a better reply.
I watched ep yesterday; if I remember rightly, when Shinn arrived Kira was busy with Neo, and Shinn managed to get close to Stellar before she noticed him and strike where she had an opening.

Have you noticed that whenever Shinn tries to deal a killing blow to a cockpit that Stellar is in, he always misses by an inch and slices off the door? It's not like he always does that, cannon fodder suits and Auel got the full smack. Either a silly plot point, or some kind of psychic interaction they have. Probably the former. XD

If we examine what Stellar has said throughout the series, it becomes clear that she is obsessed with death. She is scared of it. Now this is important because when she was about to die, she said "Shinn protect Stellar?" or some such thing. She followed it up by saying "Shinn...I love you." Clearly the meaning here is that she loved Shinn because of the protection he offered.

When I considered this, I came to a realization: Shinn desires to power in order to defend his loved ones. Who can imagine how useless he felt when his family was killed? Perhaps he saw protecting Stellar as way of making up for the weakness he felt years ago when he watched migthy mobile suits destroy his loved ones. However, if one goes along with this analysis one also realizes that Shinn is stuck in the past. He cannot get over the great tragedy of his life. The situation with Stellar reinforces those feelings of sorrow.

Yet, considering the parallels between protecting Stellar and Shinn's likely feelings of uselessness over his family's death, Shinn has not shown any willingness to grow beyond the past. Instead he has been allowing all of his frustration to fester and so he has become a very angry and abrasive person. Who's fault is this? Ultimately it rests with Shinn. He has the freedom to change himself, but instead he allows the circumstances of his life to mould his destiny.
This is what deserved the rep; very well put. You have to put yourself in his situation, though. Another metaphor Mith used in that spam thread was that you could view him like the teenagers in modern day Palestine and Iraq. Would you say the same things about them? I could imagine that there are plenty of Shinns in the military in those regions; while it seems easy to say that Shinn could change himself, if you compare his situation to the most similar one on the real world it suddenly doesn't seem quite so simple. That's my opinion, anyway. All I know is that I've seen case studies (I'm a modern history student) of similar situations in real war. I'll try and find them for you, but don't hold your breath XD My desk isn't easy to navigate.

ssouske

06-04-2005, 07:20 AM

I agree with inquisitor... i also think that stellar's death is inevitable... she could have died in minerva or she could have been killed by kira or shinn... its just that shinn can't handle himself... he refuses to grow up and move on... he still thinks that everything that happened to him is either kira's or cagalli's fault... (even athrun said that its not good to blame cagalli coz she also lost a lot...)
but going back to the discussion, if we look at how much damage stellar already made, if im correct they started from the scandinavian peninsula(finland, and all those icy european countries) and kira caught up with destory in Germany... how many cities are in the distance between the countries of the scandinavian peninsula and berlin, germany? so if kira did not show up, who knows where minerva could have caught them... maybe they could have ended in the middle east, or even worse, mainland china... think of the countless lives that stellar could have destroyed had kira not shown up... and could shinn have done the same to stellar, i guess not... he would also be entangled with chaos and neo's windam like what happened to kira before cagalli and the orb squad launched... and eventually, shinn and minerva crew could have died...
now the part kira killing stellar, i think kira was provoked to do it... stellar was thinking way too much about what neo told him and bout neo getting owned by freedom... she charges her cannon and shinn is doing nothing as if hes waiting to get fried by stellar... kira wanted to stop the destruction... kira wanted to stop the useless death of people and kira wanted to save people, even shinn...
now about shinn firing his cannon and lasers even though they're deflected by destroy... that is how kira fights... he fires not only his lasers but also his rail guns... take not that the railguns proved effective against the same system in forbidden... unfortunately, destroy did not only have that but also the beam shield thing... plus kira is also being targeted by destroy's hand cannons... even if kira wanted to use his saber, which i think he really wanted to use, he could easily get hit by those hand cannons and neo's windam was also shooting at kira... so kira is mostly doing dodge, dive, and try to get close then hack destroy using the saber... we saw this in the start when kira got his saber and did his jedi stunts then he tried to get close... unfortunately, he gets shooed off by neo and sting and stellar like a fly...

Possibly true about her being doomed to die; there are ways I can think of to get around that, but perhaps I'm just thinking like Shinn again XD. But, the fact that Shinn would have been able to take her away from Destroy is fairly significant: it won't be able to attack again! Neo stated that Sting did not have what it required to pilot it, and so taking her away from it meant that Destroy was stopped, and could have been destroyed without her in it, and that there was at least SOME chance of saving her. And even if there wasn't, she could have died peacefully with Shinn, and he wouldn't have any anger against Kira for it.
i just wanted to quote what kiba-kun said... if you really look at it... its not that sting did not have the skills to pilot the thing... its just that stellar had more potential to kill that sting coz if you psych up or brainwash (whichever you prefer) stellar, like what neo did, she can kill more and more people...
As for the damage Destroy would have done if Kira wasn't there - harder to call. She would probably just walk around shooting at targets that caught her eye, like the end of ep 31, before Kira turned up. When he arrived, she became much more aggravated (sp?), and began to use higher-level attacks.
Remember that they started attacking a snowy city in eurasia... as i said in the start of my post,in the end of ep 31, i think EAF started in one of the countries in the scandinavian peninsula which is snowy for a huge amount of time throughout the year... and in the start of ep32, they're already in berlin... thats already in germany... central europe... so its not like they'll stop in berlin and shoot everyone... they will go on untill everyting is destroyed... which means more possible shinns in the future...
Ok thats it my head really hurts now... :sad

Chillin

06-04-2005, 01:52 PM

Kiba-kun

06-04-2005, 03:51 PM

I am done talking to Kiba-kun about episode 32. You just won't change your mind or consent to anything because of the Shinn fanboy that dwells inside of you twisting things around (Hey somebody needs to stand up for the guy :P). Another episode to talk about perhaps *waits for 33*

I secretly gave in to some of it XD But I won't let on! I must defend Shinn-chan! ^_^ Only have to wait until tomorrow for the Cellphone 33 sub ^_^ But I don't think it'll have much to talk about.

Mindless

06-04-2005, 04:06 PM

After watching the latest episode, I can't tell what Shinn is thinking. He had this big smile when he saw the photos of Destroy getting beaten by Impulse? What the? Impulse... something is wrong here...

But no, Shinn just smiled, like: "Haha, they edited out that stupid Freedom."

But I don't think it was that he smiled about. I think he was smiling because he thought: "Finally I can kill even more people on the battlefield, now that the chairman told us about LOGOS." -Rey also gave Shinn some kind of strange look and smiled at him, like: "Finally, we have totally manipulated him, my eternal love Gilbert..."

Shinn will kick Kira's ass in the next episode, that is inevitable.

Chillin

06-04-2005, 04:16 PM

Inquisitor

06-05-2005, 01:16 AM

Well, I think we have pretty much taken care of episode 32, though I would like to mention that Neo only stated that Stellar was more qualified than Sting (contrary to Kiba-kun's claim). I would reply to all the points made by Kiba-kun, but in some cases it just seems that he is refusing to remove himself from Shinn's point of view.

while it seems easy to say that Shinn could change himself, if you compare his situation to the most similar one on the real world it suddenly doesn't seem quite so simple. That's my opinion, anyway. All I know is that I've seen case studies (I'm a modern history student) of similar situations in real war. I'll try and find them for you, but don't hold your breath XD My desk isn't easy to navigate.

The complexity of Shinn's situation doesn't remove his free will. I believe it was Victor Frankl, who, in a Man's Search for Meaning , said that man has the freedom to choose his attitude in a situation no matter what other freedoms are removed. Certainly someone like Stellar does not have much room to change because she was being forcibly held back from developing. What cause is there to say that Shinn cannot change himself?

antoine

06-05-2005, 02:03 AM

1 more week til the episode we've all been waiting for arrives :xp

Kiba-kun

06-05-2005, 09:17 AM

What cause is there to say that Shinn cannot change himself?

Because, IMO, he should not change himself, as yet. This is all my personal skew on things; but I believe that his personality is as such that to truely reinvent himself, to return to the way he was before, he needs closure on the deaths of his family and now Stellar. It's not as simple as saying that he can just change himself with a snap of his fingers. He needs to end the tragedy in his mind, and because he is so violently inclined, the best way for him to do that would be to defeat Kira, which he is about to do.

My point is that he should not be forced to change himself because of the way people perceive him. He needs to come to terms with what happened to him in his own way, whatever that way is.

Inquisitor

06-05-2005, 09:48 AM

Because, IMO, he should not change himself, as yet. This is all my personal skew on things; but I believe that his personality is as such that to truely reinvent himself, to return to the way he was before, he needs closure on the deaths of his family and now Stellar. It's not as simple as saying that he can just change himself with a snap of his fingers. He needs to end the tragedy in his mind, and because he is so violently inclined, the best way for him to do that would be to defeat Kira, which he is about to do.

First of all, I never said that he had to change in an instant; don't misrepresent my argument so that you can attack it more easily. My point was that Shinn has the freedom to change; he is not incapable of it. In truth, you cannot really refute that point, and you haven't. In fact, you too think he should change and that he is able to do so. Where we might disagree is the course of action for change.

You say that "closure" is what Shinn needs. I have heard that somewhere before. Very often, when a family loses a person to a killer, the family wants "closure," and by that they often mean they want the killer put to death. Now did not Cagalli say something along the lines of "killing not to be killed, and killing because someone else has been killed....is that any way to achieve peace?" Aside from offering you that question, I also offer this point: revenge is no way to fulfillment. Shinn will find only emptiness if he thinks vengeance will remove the pain of losing his loved ones. As long as Shinn holds love for those that are lost, he will mourn them, and there really isn't anything wrong with that (mourning the dead that is).

My point is that he should not be forced to change himself because of the way people perceive him. He needs to come to terms with what happened to him in his own way, whatever that way is.

I disagree. "His own way" could be a very violent one (id est, getting revenge). How could it be righteous to try and kill the man, Kira, who has saved so many? Moreover, as I have already said, revenge is not a good path to take. Although you are not entirely incorrect to say that Shinn shouldn't have to change just because people hold a cerain view of him, bear in mind that his actions have often been obviously poor (in a moral sense). Remember how he killed Todaka? Have you not seen how he acts around others?

Kiba-kun

06-05-2005, 10:44 AM

In truth, you cannot really refute that point, and you haven't. In fact, you too think he should change and that he is able to do so. Where we might disagree is the course of action for change.

True. But I can't help but to look at it from entirely Shinn's point of view. If I was in his position, I would be EXACTLY the same; and as I'm putting myself in his position, revenge seems to be the path to take. Whether people agree with it or not is another matter.

Closure is not the same as removing the pain. Closure is the first step - Shinn needs to take this step before he can start coming to terms with what has happened. He is eager to prove himself, and is arrogant (not in a 'I'm so good' boasting way, but in a way that he is very much aware of the skills he possesses). He cannot get over the fact that he could not protect Stellar, and so a way for him to begin to come to terms with that would be to 'equalize', for want of a better word, and to bring himself back up from the low he has pushed himself down into.

Anyway, episode 33!

Firstly, as predicated above, Shinn is putting a great deal of effort into learning about Freedom. This is not something Kira will do, and ever has done; he simply isn't a military man. This is what will give Shinn the edge over Kira next episode.

With regards to how he treated Athrun - Rey said it all really. While Shinn was a little too abrasive, as usual, from a ZAFT Ace's perspective there is nothing wrong with researching what will be your opponent. Athrun's still not belonging in the ZAFT military, and this has proved this.

This episode does give more weight to the 'Anakin' theory for Shinn. We all know Rey is going that way, and the closeness between them this episode and the way that Shinn was viewing Dullindal in exactly the same way Rey always has means that Dullindal could have just made himself another little boyfriend XD

3rdStrike

06-05-2005, 01:37 PM

Firstly, as predicated above, Shinn is putting a great deal of effort into learning about Freedom. This is not something Kira will do, and ever has done; he simply isn't a military man. This is what will give Shinn the edge over Kira next episode.

Well, I don't see you making a point here. Shinn enlisted or volunteered to join the Zaft Military. He was determined to do so, thus it's not a big suprise and it's expected from him to put a great deal of effort in analyzing Freedom or any of his opponent. Kira on the other hand was forced to get involve with the war back in SEED, he was never a military man to start off with. Why would someone who hates war put a great deal of effort into learning about an MS and destroying it?

But otherwise, things do get more interesting from here.

Kiba-kun

06-05-2005, 01:54 PM

The point isn't why, it's the fact that he is doing that. Doesn't matter why.

staradderdragoon

06-05-2005, 02:02 PM

man, there is so much text. i think im going to give up trying to read all of this and take it in unless someone explains to me what it is we're debating about now...

Inquisitor

06-05-2005, 02:49 PM

True. But I can't help but to look at it from entirely Shinn's point of view. If I was in his position, I would be EXACTLY the same; and as I'm putting myself in his position, revenge seems to be the path to take. Whether people agree with it or not is another matter.

Ever think of looking at things from the perspective of other characters? Or even from the perspective outside of the anime?

Another thing, I think you are ignoring the objective reality of the situation: revenge is not going to help Shinn. Do you truly believe that by fighting Kira he will make himself feel better? Hatred will only breed more hatred.

Closure is not the same as removing the pain. Closure is the first step - Shinn needs to take this step before he can start coming to terms with what has happened. He is eager to prove himself, and is arrogant (not in a 'I'm so good' boasting way, but in a way that he is very much aware of the skills he possesses). He cannot get over the fact that he could not protect Stellar, and so a way for him to begin to come to terms with that would be to 'equalize', for want of a better word, and to bring himself back up from the low he has pushed himself down into.

But you don't understand: "closure" will not help Shinn because of the type of "closure" he is seeking. He is not walking down a path of removing his pain, he walking down the path of vengeance, and as we all know, that will not help him. As an example, look at Sasuke. He was so obsessed (and is obsessed) with revenge, that he filled himself with evil. Kakashi warned him of the dangers of the path of revenge, but he ignored it. Shinn doesn't have anyone to warn him, and instead he is just focussing on his goal. Sure, he will beat Freedom, but he will never be able to erase the suffering in his heart if he continues on this path.

Anyway, episode 33!

Firstly, as predicated above, Shinn is putting a great deal of effort into learning about Freedom. This is not something Kira will do, and ever has done; he simply isn't a military man. This is what will give Shinn the edge over Kira next episode.

With regards to how he treated Athrun - Rey said it all really. While Shinn was a little too abrasive, as usual, from a ZAFT Ace's perspective there is nothing wrong with researching what will be your opponent. Athrun's still not belonging in the ZAFT military, and this has proved this.

This episode does give more weight to the 'Anakin' theory for Shinn. We all know Rey is going that way, and the closeness between them this episode and the way that Shinn was viewing Dullindal in exactly the same way Rey always has means that Dullindal could have just made himself another little boyfriend XD

The fact that he is researching Freedom is all well and good, but we can't expect Kira to do research on Impulse. Why? Because Kira doesn't consider it a rival (perhaps not even an enemy). I know that you are looking for every cause to make Shinn look good and Kira look bad, but don't be unreasonable.

As for how Shinn treated Athrun, that is not pertinent to this thread. I will say this: Kira and the AA are certainly not the bad guys in Destiny, in fact they are the heroes.

Finally, it might very well be that Shinn is going to become a sort of "Anakin" like character, but we will have to wait and see.

Baka-Sama

06-05-2005, 07:54 PM

Hatred will only breed more hatred.

wasnt that wat Relena said in Gundam Wing Endless Waltz? and about wat u said about Shinn wanting power to protect his close one's and not wanting them to die is certainly reminding me of Anikin. and im really starting to think that Fuduka is gonna base Shinn's personality change on Anikins. lol

3rdStrike

06-05-2005, 08:11 PM

The point isn't why, it's the fact that he is doing that. Doesn't matter why.

Ahh ok. Sorry for misinterperting, my bad. To me that statement sounded really bias, something along the lines like - "Oh, Shinn is putting so much effort, therefore it makes him better than Kira."

staradderdragoon

06-05-2005, 10:01 PM

well. its not like kira needs effort. kira already owns....if shinn puts effort, its just like practicing...practice makes perfect...but kira still owns at this point...even though freedom gets torn up (i still dont get that...maybe the killer intent?)

antoine

06-05-2005, 10:26 PM

the whole concept of SEED mode in battles confuses me somewhat. For instance, Kira & Shinn both own in seed mode, but how do know who will win a battle in which opposing sides both are in SEED mode?

Its so obvious that Shinn will defeat Kira in the next ep, but it would make more sense if Shinn defeats Kira when Kira isn't in seed mode.

staradderdragoon

06-05-2005, 10:37 PM

well. think about their attitude towards each other. kira just wants people to stop fighting by damaging them and immobolizing them. not killing them. but to shinn, kira killed his family. he wants revenge and wants to kill kira. therfore, witht eh killing intent, shinn has an advantage. and shinn isn't a bad pilot. i would say that he has more use than kira just because he doesnt have any worries. just kill or be killed like the druggies from SEED. very simple minded....kira has too much to worry about....that's why it would make sense....

antoine

06-05-2005, 11:47 PM

hmm i see...but
Shinn doesnt know that Kira killed his family, but when Stellar dies, he is as angry as when his family died. If he knew that Kira killed his family, the episode of Freedom's reappearance would have been veerrrrrrrrrrrrrry different.

AnbuShingami

06-06-2005, 02:40 AM

yea kira would have been forced to kill him, making this series end at episode 25

Kiba-kun

06-06-2005, 07:23 AM

Ever think of looking at things from the perspective of other characters? Or even from the perspective outside of the anime?
Yes, but the fanboy inside tends to take over. XD
Another thing, I think you are ignoring the objective reality of the situation: revenge is not going to help Shinn. Do you truly believe that by fighting Kira he will make himself feel better? Hatred will only breed more hatred.
Perhaps not 'feel better' as such; but it's something he needs to do. There's a part of him inside that will not be satisfied until he has come to terms with what has happened, and the only way for such a violent person is to fight Kira.
But you don't understand: "closure" will not help Shinn because of the type of "closure" he is seeking. He is not walking down a path of removing his pain, he walking down the path of vengeance, and as we all know, that will not help him. As an example, look at Sasuke. He was so obsessed (and is obsessed) with revenge, that he filled himself with evil. Kakashi warned him of the dangers of the path of revenge, but he ignored it. Shinn doesn't have anyone to warn him, and instead he is just focussing on his goal. Sure, he will beat Freedom, but he will never be able to erase the suffering in his heart if he continues on this path.
We can only wait and see. I believe that this fight will end up changing Shinn completely; for better or for worse. He could either go down the aloof, 'I must save all' route that Kira did, or the Anakin Skywalker route.
The fact that he is researching Freedom is all well and good, but we can't expect Kira to do research on Impulse. Why? Because Kira doesn't consider it a rival (perhaps not even an enemy). I know that you are looking for every cause to make Shinn look good and Kira look bad, but don't be unreasonable.
I don't think it's unreasonable; it's a valid reason why Shinn will be able to beat Kira. As I said, the whys and wherefores don't really matter for this point - the simple fact that he has done it gives him the edge.
As for how Shinn treated Athrun, that is not pertinent to this thread. I will say this: Kira and the AA are certainly not the bad guys in Destiny, in fact they are the heroes.
A matter of opinion ^^; They're certainly being portrayed as the heroes, but as usual with Gundam series there is two sides to the story. No-one is ever completely good or completely bad in a Gundam series.
Finally, it might very well be that Shinn is going to become a sort of "Anakin" like character, but we will have to wait and see.
We can wait and hope ^_^

Mindless

06-06-2005, 10:18 AM

3rdStrike

06-06-2005, 02:17 PM

Kiba-kun

06-06-2005, 02:41 PM

^Well, Shinn recognizes that Freedom was involved even though it didn't exactly kill his family. So it really doesn't matter if Calamity or Raider were the ones that killed Shinn's family, the fact that Freedom was there is a good enough for Shinn to hold a grudge against Kira.

Aye, Shinn saw Freedom fire off in HiMat mode just before the explosion that killed his family, so he believes it's Freedom.

Although, I'd like to know why it was Calamity or Raider; because I didn't see that myself in ep 1 ^_^

staradderdragoon

06-06-2005, 08:35 PM

after watching episode 33 again, i felt like punching shinn in the balls...i was like, u fag, u think u know everything. i can't blame rey for sticking up for shinn but he thinks that asuran knows squat and he knows all....meh....arrogant little fool....lol

Chillin

06-06-2005, 08:38 PM

Rey is just playing Shinn into Dullindal's game I believe. He really isn't concerned about Shinn's petty revenge or attitude. At least that is what I think

staradderdragoon

06-06-2005, 08:49 PM

Chillin

06-06-2005, 09:15 PM

rey is all about following orders and dullindal...maybe your right...but what do u mean, playing shinn into dullindal's game? what game? the plan? shinn's attitude makes it easy to play him since he thinks as long as he follows dullindal, he can do whatever he wants...annoying guy...(for now at least...maybe he'll get better but i casnt see it...)

Yeah what I'm thinking is that it is easier to play Shinn as opposed to someone like Kira or Athrun (which is why he wants to get rid of Kira especially). Dullindal I believe is just manipulating people. It's obvious he's manipulated Athrun and he just manipulated the entire world in phase 33. Of course EA just kind of gave him the ammunition to be able to do so.

Kiba-kun

06-07-2005, 04:46 PM

It's obvious that Shinn is being manipulated by Gilbert; but why? Maybe I'm missing something blatant, but I don't think we have any clues about Gilberts intentions yet, do we? Any speculations on why he forces Shinn and Kira into battle?

And just a couple of things from above:
just kill or be killed like the druggies from SEED. very simple minded....
I wouldn't say that. He has his goals to accomplish, and he does have people close to him, so it's not like he has nothing to lose. Isn't that his whole point? He loses things close to him, which sends him loopy. So I don't think his attitude is a cold, kill-or-be-killed one. He kills because that's his job, and I think somehow that death does concern him a little. Think about it.
after watching episode 33 again, i felt like punching shinn in the balls...i was like, u fag, u think u know everything. i can't blame rey for sticking up for shinn but he thinks that asuran knows squat and he knows all....meh....arrogant little fool....lol
First of all, using 'fag' as an insult is not a good thing. Please don't. ^_^
I'm not sure whether arrogance is everything to this: I know Shinn did go on about him being THE Zaft ace and all, but I don't think he was lording over Athrun in any way. He was pretty much ignoring him, actually, until Athrun had a hissy fit and tried to interrupt a valued soldier's work :P I hardly think Athrun knows 'all' somehow! We can all see how pathetic he's been in the series so far, his speech to Kira in 28 excepted.

Chillin

06-07-2005, 05:34 PM

Well he knows Kira is the biggest threat to his (evil) plans, and so he gets Shinn who has the best chance against Kira to fight him. It could be that normally Shinn cannot beat Kira even in Seed mode, but if Dullindal were to give Shinn a reason to be mad at Kira he could very well take him out. Then imagine having someone with power like Kira on your side with a whole army backing him. You'd be unstoppable. It's very possible he could want that kind of power, but he knew from the start Kira was not going to join him or agree with him. He just easily manipulated the next best thing, and is essentially killing two birds with one stone.

staradderdragoon

06-07-2005, 08:10 PM

i keep on thinking...little does shinn know that freedom is not the strongest gundam anymore...strike freedom should be able to own destiny...who knows, if shinn pisses kira off, then he's going to get some butt kicked...anyhow, kiba-kun, sorry about the fag thing, but i felt he was being real gay and all, but the fact is, kira is asuran's best friend and asuran knows clear well of his intentions...doesnt shinn know this? why would ur friend try to kill you without reason? see, shinn doesnt see the whole picture and thinks that kira just wants to take out everybody...but im not totally sure...

ssouske

06-07-2005, 10:32 PM

well... as of the moment, freedom and kira is the strongest MS+pilot combination in GSD... it is still safe to say that S-Freedom still does not exist since we don't know who are the official people who will make the suits... orb? zaft? or another party? If shinn really wants to piss kira, he'd better start scratching AA... and kira will get pissed especially athrun since cagalli is inside AA... lets see rey and shinn beat kira and athrun in seed mode... hahaha!
about shinn not taking athrun's advice about kira... we all know that shinn want's his revenge... a person hell bent on revenge usually forgets everything that is logical... he will just realize it in the end and regret it if he sees that what he did was wrong... but right now everybody exempt athrun and probably lunamaria, know that kira and AA are their enemies... even talia doesnot know if aa is indeed an enemy of foe... but as long as they don't see the big picture, they will never realize why kira and AA are fighting.

staradderdragoon

06-08-2005, 08:49 PM

that's exactly my point

Baka-Sama

06-08-2005, 09:31 PM

well since with all these spoilers going on and mahq.net suddenly class S-Freedom as ZGMF-X20 Strike Freedom. then i guess where Strike Freedom is gonna be made is most definetly gonna be at PLANT.

staradderdragoon

06-08-2005, 09:51 PM

one thing. was saviour a ZMGF model? but its obvious that frredom would be made on plant. all the gundam s were made there. by all the gundams, saviour, chaos, gaia, abyss...

ssouske

06-08-2005, 10:35 PM

Yes saviour is done by plant... it is ZGMF-x23s Saviour :laugh
it really looked cool but when athrun used it against sting, it looked like a fly that is getting chased in the sky.

Baka-Sama

06-08-2005, 10:39 PM

yes. any good gundam Athrun got was always strong and cool, but when Athrun piloted it it looked like crap. i dunno how he survived Jakin Dule with those skill's. hopfully we might see an improvement in his abilities when he gets Legend Gundam( Newtype magazine said that Athrun was gonna get Legend from..........wats his face from plant. that dude thats always playing chess. I CAN NEVER SPELL HIS NAME RITE!)

staradderdragoon

06-08-2005, 11:16 PM

so then it has bben confirmed that he will get legend first? then maybe rey sees it and says, "gimme" lol. i dunno. if shinn is a "super ace" and asuran is a "legendary ace" then kira is "ownage ace" right? lol
"Newtype magazine said that Athrun was gonna get Legend from..........wats his face from plant. that dude thats always playing chess. I CAN NEVER SPELL HIS NAME RITE"
you mean dullindal?

Salo

06-09-2005, 02:42 PM

(...random person stopping by...)
Just wanted to say something in this thread.
I like both Kira and Shinn. I like Kira because in Gseed, I had to put up with the torture of listening to Kira cry in every other episode up until the point he matured into this wonderful fighter. It makes me happy to know that it was worth it, and I like Kira for that.
Same with Shinn. Of course his flaws are a bit different and more emphasized but dang... he saw his family's deaths and for that, it does cause slightly more problems... But right now, I still like him thanks to my experience with Kira (oddly enough). I am completely expecting this flawed character to do the same in maturing. If not, then heh, I'll just live happily with the fact that Shinn had to be one of the most controversial characters I've ever watched on screen, which sure as hell added the spark to this series (at least for me)-- including seeing Kira all grown up.
Shinn, in a way, seems like a sort of balance to both Kira and Athrun. And right now, I see Kira and Athrun in doubt, confused, etc. I'm thinking either in the end, Shinn (and his straightforward personality) will jar both of them out of their 'whatever-state-of-mind' that comes from being war vets I guess.... give them a new idea or something or like everyone else is saying, (which I'm leaning more on to since this latest episode) he gets manipulated and he becomes one of the bad guys. Which is not bad at all.

staradderdragoon

06-09-2005, 08:26 PM

after reading the above post, i feel like shinn is an "evil" version of kira. not really evil, but instead of crying, he just gets pissed off all the time or something...its either mad, screaming his head off, or being arrogant....makes for an interesting but annoying as hell character....then again, the crying (from kira) was pretty bad tooo...meh

deathbychocolate

06-11-2005, 04:29 AM

hmm.. i definitely prefer kira to shinn.. i find shinn a little too childish.. immature.. and i hate his attitude and character.. although i admire his love for stellar.. thats probably the only good thing about him that i can think of now.. and yes.. being an ace pilot

BigAznDaddy

06-11-2005, 11:44 AM

ya i like that kira actually has morals and a consience, i mean he knows when to do something and wehn not to and he crys for gods sake, he's a great guy that feels the pains of war but knows he needs to go on to better the life of the ppl. overall kira is just UBER hands down

p.s. i hate shinn

3rdStrike

06-12-2005, 01:33 AM

http://img145.echo.cx/img145/4647/shinnn4gt.gif

Ugh. His looks creeps me out.

OK. So Shinn got his revenge. So now what for him?

staradderdragoon

06-12-2005, 01:52 AM

whoa. is that from 34? that looks so creepy. i knew it. shinn is pure evil....with some psycho....

Chillin

06-12-2005, 02:01 AM

http://img145.echo.cx/img145/4647/shinnn4gt.gif

Ugh. His looks creeps me out.

OK. So Shinn got his revenge. So now what for him?

Kira will probably whoop his ass the next time while giving him a good talk, and he will change for the better.

ssouske

06-12-2005, 02:09 AM

yeah... shinn will definitely get 2 cans of whopass... one frome athrun... and one more from kira next time... :laugh

staradderdragoon

06-12-2005, 02:16 AM

ssouske

06-12-2005, 02:57 AM

how a bout 3? or 4? watch him get so cocky lunamaria and rey defect and own his butt....or neo instead of rey...lol no even better, cagalli or lacus.....
but yeah, 3rdstrike has a point, now that shinn has had his revenge for stellar and his family, what now? does he want to kill cagalli now? if he does, asuran will own him to the ground...but yeah, what happens now? waste several episodes handing out gundams? that would be so lame....
i think athrun is already very mad... he saw that huge explosion... it could be AA or freedom going boom... so i expect to see athrun to own shinn's ass and maybe minerva crew's asses hahaha! i believe athrun in seed mode can still do wonders... he has not yet gone to seed mode in destiny... its about time for him to do so... hehehe!

antoine

06-12-2005, 04:46 AM

Athrun's reaction better not dissappoint all of us kekeke

staradderdragoon

06-12-2005, 01:15 PM

athrun's reaction better amaze us off our seats....lol

ssouske

06-12-2005, 01:36 PM

athrun's reaction better amaze us off our seats....lol
how about this... if athrun thinks that both AA and freedom went down(means kira, cagalli, and everybody died) we see athrun go seed mode even with out a mobile suit... gets his handgun and shoots everybody in minerva in the limbs...(maybe exept luna and her sister coz we'll see them cheering athrun :laugh ) then he beats shinn to a pulp... :laugh he waits for gil then shoots him til he is dead... but then that would destroy athrun's image... hehehe!

Kiba-kun

06-12-2005, 02:05 PM

Wow. What an amazing episode.

I really can't do much to defend Shinn's actions here other than what I've already said. As predicted, he won because of his superior preparation and combat skills; Kira seriously underestimated the magnitude of the battle, and so was beaten. Had he been more aware and prepared, and not regarded Shinn as just another ZAFT suit, things might have gone a different way. His face alone shows how surprised he was.

Again as predicated, Shinn used the Impulse expertly - that was EXACTLY the kind of thing I've been wanting ever since that canyon flight. He used Impulse in innovative and exciting ways, and I was glad to see my favourite Silhouette giving the finishing blow as well as some Core Splendor action (I've been waiting for that).

As for his actions - opinion is going to be seriously divided here. There's no middle ground; you either respect him for winning or hate him for winning. Of course, I fall into the former category, but this time I'm not on quite such steady ground...

As said above, his piloting skills were way above Kira's here - it seems hard to dispute that. Even if you hate the outcome, you've gotta respect that. His reasons I've been through, and I can't comment on them until I've seen him in the next few episodes. As I spoke about with Inquisitor, it's all down to his views and feelings after revenge. If he becomes calmer now, and has been able to close this chapter of his life, then it's all been worthwhile.

BUT - It really doesn't look like that's going to happen, does it? He has, for want of a better phrase, gone mental. He's clearly been studying Freedom for hours on end in his room, and his crazed laughter at the end was not what I was hoping for. I have a nasty (but nice) feeling that he's now gone down a road he can't go back on - it looks like I may be wrong on merits of his revenge.

I say 'but nice' for two reasons:
a) I like him being the anti-thesis to the lofty Kira and Athrun, and
b) I'd love him to be the main bad guy.

This episode has added yet more weight to the 'Anakin' theory for Shinn. Again, we can only wait and see. Perhaps his revenge will turn out for the better here, and we will get a calm hero out of Shinn. >.< Need next episodes...

And I still love him - he's just going a little odd now. Not what I expected at all, but that's not a bad thing!

zeheero1982

06-12-2005, 02:32 PM

Kiba Kun, you are forgetting to point out the fact that Shinn was going for the kill and Kira wasn't. If Kira were going for the kill than the story would have been different. I think Kira would have Freedom destory. I really miss that suit. I don't like the new design for freedom,Strike Freedom.

Wow. What an amazing episode.

I really can't do much to defend Shinn's actions here other than what I've already said. As predicted, he won because of his superior preparation and combat skills; Kira seriously underestimated the magnitude of the battle, and so was beaten. Had he been more aware and prepared, and not regarded Shinn as just another ZAFT suit, things might have gone a different way. His face alone shows how surprised he was.

Again as predicated, Shinn used the Impulse expertly - that was EXACTLY the kind of thing I've been wanting ever since that canyon flight. He used Impulse in innovative and exciting ways, and I was glad to see my favourite Silhouette giving the finishing blow as well as some Core Splendor action (I've been waiting for that).

As for his actions - opinion is going to be seriously divided here. There's no middle ground; you either respect him for winning or hate him for winning. Of course, I fall into the former category, but this time I'm not on quite such steady ground...

As said above, his piloting skills were way above Kira's here - it seems hard to dispute that. Even if you hate the outcome, you've gotta respect that. His reasons I've been through, and I can't comment on them until I've seen him in the next few episodes. As I spoke about with Inquisitor, it's all down to his views and feelings after revenge. If he becomes calmer now, and has been able to close this chapter of his life, then it's all been worthwhile.

BUT - It really doesn't look like that's going to happen, does it? He has, for want of a better phrase, gone mental. He's clearly been studying Freedom for hours on end in his room, and his crazed laughter at the end was not what I was hoping for. I have a nasty (but nice) feeling that he's now gone down a road he can't go back on - it looks like I may be wrong on merits of his revenge.

I say 'but nice' for two reasons:
a) I like him being the anti-thesis to the lofty Kira and Athrun, and
b) I'd love him to be the main bad guy.

This episode has added yet more weight to the 'Anakin' theory for Shinn. Again, we can only wait and see. Perhaps his revenge will turn out for the better here, and we will get a calm hero out of Shinn. >.< Need next episodes...

And I still love him - he's just going a little odd now. Not what I expected at all, but that's not a bad thing!

Chillin

06-12-2005, 02:36 PM

:laugh I gotta rep you for that, it hasn't even been one episode after the destruction of Freedom and you already miss it.

ssouske

06-12-2005, 04:30 PM

Mindless

06-12-2005, 06:28 PM

Yeah, it's kinda pointless discussing all these "What if's", when everything has already happened, for good or bad.

I like your idea Kiba-kun about Shinn becoming the main bad guy, but in the end, I think it will be just another SEED-clone. Meaning; Gilbert becomes the bad guy.

As I said in the Destiny thread though, as I made the preview: Kira was less prepared, he didn't expect to meet a foe that had studied all his moves and understood them to perfection. Kira was arrogant, that was his undoing. His no-kill ideology also played a big part in the battle.

But I think Kira and Shinn will meet eachother once again, like they did on the beach in ORB that time. A moment in the episode made me think that. And that was while Shinn repeatedly kept pushing Kira into a corner, and Kira said: "This is...(pointing to that this whole thing is wrong, since he noticed the person who was in the other suit) this is... (pointing to that he noticed it beeing that guy from ORB in the other mobile suit).

Now I'll say something totally un-Kira-fan'ish: I enjoyed watching Kira loose. It was about time he lost. He's been on a killing spree, totally unstoppable, ever since he got Freedom in episode 34 back in SEED. (well, he started fighting with it in 35)

But still, Shinn's laughter made me worried. Very worried. He just 'killed' a person, and he just laughs? How wrong isn't that? I mean, Klueze didn't even laugh when he saw the scrap left of Strike floating in space when Mwu 'died', and that guy was rotten to the core. But Shinn, just a regular guy (apart from beeing a vengeful bastard), sitting there, telling himself: "Haha... I finally did it Stellar... Finally with this... Haha..." -now that's madness. And just to make the whole thing even more strange, he's crying? Tears of joy? I wonder. Tears of sadness? I think not.

Ah. End rant.

Kiba-kun

06-12-2005, 06:43 PM

Tears of sadness? I think not.

More likely than you think, possibly - if they're gonna set him on a path of the good guy, it doesn't seem unlikely that he could be crying inside because of what he's done, and forcing himself to be pleased because that is what he said he wanted to do. I dunno. We really can't do anything but speculate at this point...I wish I could watch this series all at once XD

Mindless

06-12-2005, 06:50 PM

I wish I could watch this series all at once XD

Trust me my friend... you are not alone... :sad

ssouske

06-13-2005, 01:11 AM

antoine

06-13-2005, 05:59 AM

Kiba-kun

06-13-2005, 07:55 AM

mindless...well i have to agree with you in saying freedom in ep 50 of seed was on a killing spree destroying battleships and all...but kira is yet to kill anyone in destiny...i dont consider him Stellar's killer because he chose to disable the firing mobile suit instead of chopping Stellar to bits in the cockpit (that shinn cut open himself)

Sorry, how is he not Stellar's killer? That really makes little sense; by slicing the positron cannons, he caused the explosion which killed her. Deary me. That's like saying the person who presses the detonator on a bomb didn't really kill anyone the bomb does, because he didn't do it up close and personal. >.<

Mindless

06-13-2005, 10:55 AM

As Riddick says: "It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom".

Anyway...

Kira killed Stellar, now matter what way you try turning it.

Gonna watch the subbed version of Phase-34 now, eventhough I pretty much understood everything they said. If something new popped up regarding the whole Kira vs. Shinn thing, I'll make a post.

Chillin

06-13-2005, 01:11 PM

I remember a while back someone said that Shinn was much more vulnerable than Kira was as a main character. I think that is pretty much wrong now.

Kiba-kun

06-13-2005, 01:16 PM

I remember a while back someone said that Shinn was much more vulnerable than Kira was as a main character. I think that is pretty much wrong now.

Perhaps not in combat, but he's still far more emotionally vulnerable than Kira was.

Chillin

06-13-2005, 01:21 PM

Perhaps not in combat, but he's still far more emotionally vulnerable than Kira was.

Yeah I meant in combat, people were saying how Kira was whooping everyone in Seed and all this stuff, but I have yet to see Shinn get a beating or come close to death like Kira has in at least three seperate occasions (Athrun, Rau, and Shinn himself). As far as emotionally, yes, Shinn is quite a bit more vulnerable than Kira, which is why Shinn is more easily manipulated (I see Rey didn't have to sex him up to get him to do his bidding :laugh ).

Kiba-kun

06-13-2005, 01:38 PM

Yeah I meant in combat, people were saying how Kira was whooping everyone in Seed and all this stuff, but I have yet to see Shinn get a beating or come close to death like Kira has in at least three seperate occasions (Athrun, Rau, and Shinn himself). As far as emotionally, yes, Shinn is quite a bit more vulnerable than Kira, which is why Shinn is more easily manipulated (I see Rey didn't have to sex him up to get him to do his bidding :laugh ).

Shame XD

I wonder how far this manipulation will go? What I mean to say is; how much of Shinn's belief in Dullindal and lust for battle is from within himself, and how much of it has Rey instilled into him?

davidsiaw

06-13-2005, 05:13 PM

Shinn makes the series interesting.
Why?

1) He's not the goodie-two-shoes type
2) He's a such a baby
3) He's got a tragic background
4) He's got a bad-guy attitude
5) He pwned Kira XDDDDDD

Kira *WAS interesting until:

1) He fights with repeated battle scenes
2) He says "let it be done" and it is done.
3) His face is made of wax. No emotions whatsoever
4) He goes into SEED mode quite convieniently
5) He was pwned by Shinn XDDDDDDDDDDDD

my two cents.

antoine

06-13-2005, 05:31 PM

Kira's background is more tragic than Shinn's.
When Kira said "Maryusan take care of this" and then owned Neo...that was hot wtf? :/
Don't forget Athrun getting owned.
Why fight half-assed by not going into seed mode?
What emotions are there to be shown? A war has started again and Kira realizes that human beings don't learn from their past mistakes.

Inquisitor

06-13-2005, 06:33 PM

Kiba-kun

06-13-2005, 07:16 PM

I am not that upset that Kira lost, I am just miffed that I'm going to have to wade through the flood of Shinn-fanboyism that will likely stain the forum until Shinn gets put into his place.

Anyway, Shinn's emotions are making him into a sort of puppet: his feelings are falling right in line with the Chairman's desires. Even his rescue of Stellar helped Dullindal out, since she went on to pilot Destroy thus helping to provide the Chairman with cause to make a speech about the Merchants of Death (I love that title by the way).

There's only two, maybe three - we hardly stain the place! >.<

It's an interesting title. Logos are exactly the kind of thing the average teenager that watchs things like this love: a good ol' conspiracy theory. It'll be interesting to see if they are done well.

And his Stellar-resuce actually meant nothing from Dullindal's point of view - Destroy would still have been deployed, but piloted by someone else, most likely. Stellar's so expendable, like all the Extendeds, that it doesn't seem likely that they developed Destroy just for her.

Mindless

06-13-2005, 08:03 PM

But still. Shinn escaping from the Minerva with Stellar proved to be very beneficial for Gilbert. I mean. Not only did he get to make a special order, to say that: "Shinn will escape all forms of punishments this time." -making Shinn further believe in the thing that he's above and beyond. And then, yet again things proved to act in Gilbert's favour. Destroy was deployed in Eurasia and leveled city after city untill the Archangel and Minerva arrived.

Then, when Kira killed Stellar, by striking Destroy down, it gave Shinn even more reason to continue his path of revenge on the EA (or whatever), or should I say, all of mankind? Anyway.

With Shinn's hate building up for Freedom, the Archangel and ORB, Gilbert sent out his new orders to take down the Archangel, making Shinn believe even further someone is watching over him, making all the stuff he wants to happen, happen, and thus, becoming even more manipulated by Gilbert, and now even by Rey.

Inquisitor

06-13-2005, 08:39 PM

And his Stellar-resuce actually meant nothing from Dullindal's point of view - Destroy would still have been deployed, but piloted by someone else, most likely. Stellar's so expendable, like all the Extendeds, that it doesn't seem likely that they developed Destroy just for her.

As Mindless pointed out, her rescue simply happened to help Dullindal out.

Changing gears a little, I might as well give Shinn his due: he did exactly what he had to do to defeat Kira. Does this mean that Shinn is a better pilot than Kira? That question is up in the air. I am sure Kiba-kun could easily recite all the reasons why Shinn displayed better piloting skills in this most recent episode than Kira did. Yet, we are not comparing things on an equitable level. Shinn had every intention of killing Kira, and, in fact, had planned on fighting him. Moreover, it's not like Kira knew that Shinn and ZAFT were going to come after them. Heck, not even the members of FAITH knew about the planned attack on the AA. So one could partially explain away Kira's defeat because of the element of surprise as well as his concern for the AA. But, that is sort of a lame excuse since it doesn't remove the fact that Kira was beaten. However, I have a different explanation.

As I said before, we shouldn't compare things on an unequal basis. What I mean by that statement is that Kira was not displaying an attitude conducive towards his full potential. In every battle Kira has been fighting to immobilize the opposition (with the notable exception of his final strike against Destroy). Now, this fact means that Shinn could easily exploit Kira's self-inflicted handicap. Essentially, I am saying that Kira was limiting himself and so was not fighting at his full battle potential, and so to declare Shinn the better pilot based on this duel would reflect a narrow understanding of the battle methods of each pilot.

One could make the argument that Kira's battle style has developed into what it is now, but he has displayed the ability to kill (Stellar) and the fact that he didn't do so in this circumstance does not reflect lesser piloting skill as much as it does lack of clairvoyance.

Finally, the Roman statesman Cato, during the Punic Wars, used to end every speech with the line "Carthage must be destroyed." I wonder if a similar line would be appropriate for those who dislike Shinn..... ;)

BigAznDaddy

06-13-2005, 08:44 PM

shinn would get pwned if it were the old kira who would kill and attack the weak pts of the gundam, no question about it. there were just too many things that kira had to worry about in the last episode to say that shinn beat him, having to get cagali out, helping the AA, not killing shinn, i mean if it we're for his handicap and shinn knowing eactly wut to do then kira would have won easily

another factor is the AA not wanting to fight, i mean they could have destoryed the minerva, w/ that guys piloting skills and the weaponry they had but no they don't destroy therefore they couldn't provide coverfire/peace of mind to kira

so kira wins period and shinn's an ass for laughing at kira's "death"

davidsiaw

06-13-2005, 09:05 PM

The fact that this story might be flawed would be the fact that it is written by humans. Its just an anime so even if illogical things do happen no matter how much we try to understand it, the fact that it is artificial means that it might just have been a spur of the moment for the writer, and therefore it is both useless and pointless to try to comprehend.

I however, would judge the anime not on the terms of who's a good guy, or who's skilled or who's the guy who sits in the right hand of justice. I stand to view the anime for the fun of it. And the one that does the most illustrious things, no matter how indespicable, and the character that stands out and inspires and awes, I will consider my favourite character.

Anyway, I enjoy the story only when there's action or something sudden and radical in it. A twist. And episode 34 has that twist. A twist where the most powerful character, in terms of piloting skill, experience and fanbase, is defeated by the antagonistic main character. What he could do or what he could not do to prevent that becomes insignificant after an effect is made.

If we really want to analyse this event out of interest, A man is measured by his achievements and I can only say the same about Kira. He's a great person, but all he thought of was to try to police an utopia, which was his greatest mistake. It is obvious and logical he trying to be the best guy gave him the most fearsome of enemies, it doesnt take a prophet to predict that even for a God, that will prove to be his demise. Back in SEED, he had a weaker gundam, and less experience. He needed to be as determined as he possibly can, although the way he fought was rather crude. The only way to beat his enemies was to kill them. Once he got freedom, he had the ability to play differently. He could afford the option of not killing, since he was good and his machine was good. In the present however, Shinn is now in his shoes back in SEED. He's only learning the ways of combat. His machine far from awesome. For Shinn, to kill is to survive. It will not stop combat but he will survive. If he did not stop Kira, he may not survive. He did not take for granted Kira will not shoot his cockpit. Kira overlooked that. I'm sure most Kira fans overlook that. Shinn being an ass for laughing at Kira for dying is what any ordinary person will do. If your girlfriend is killed by another, it is only human to think of revenge. He has not had the experiences Kira had. For all you know, Kira might have defeated someone in SEED that had "pwned" every day of his life out of anger.

Now, I will be a devil's advocate to my theory.

Shinn only thinking of revenge was wrong on his part.:

He relied on emotions and spurs of the moment to guide him. So he should not? Would that be him not being mature enough? True. He's not mature. The reason he relied on his feelings, and not care about others was because that was the very thing that protected him, after his parents died. I may be wrong to say that about Shinn. But if Uchiha Itachi was once a good guy, someone who saved the world, I'm sure people will try to say that Itachi's deeds outweigh the fact that he killed his whole clan, and his brother should not kill him.

Kira was trying to avoid killing Shinn, as he did everyone after the event of Nicol's death. :

He wanted to just disable him but Shinn took advantage of that. because of his self-inflicted handicap, he allowed Shinn to overrun him. At the time when Shinn's intent to kill was obvious, I wonder if Kira DID attempt to kill Shinn? Maybe the last minute beam saber through Impulse's head was such an attempt? Maybe Shinn split in two to dodge such an attempt? In a dillema of this sort, maybe someone's got to lose. If losing means almost certain death and you don't want people to die, maybe the one that should die is you. Since in your opinion, theres not enough space for the two of us in this world.

IMO, from what I comprehend from everyone's arguments. The above was the 2 main arguments used by all.

Mindless

06-14-2005, 06:09 AM

I believe that Kira really tried to kill Shinn at one time. That was when he did that classic move where he dodges an attack, does a roll, and comes in with his beamsaber in waist height and cuts the gundam off. He might have cut Impulse in two if Impulse wasn't luanched in parts. Or, he might have done the same thing he did to Duel when he first got Freedom, meaning: Just cut off his legs.

davidsiaw: Really good post IMO. Really good. :)

Kiba-kun

06-14-2005, 07:25 AM

My computer crashed whilst typing an awesome post. :(

I'll get it going again, albeit a little more concise this time...maybe...

But still. Shinn escaping from the Minerva with Stellar proved to be very beneficial for Gilbert. I mean. Not only did he get to make a special order, to say that: "Shinn will escape all forms of punishments this time." -making Shinn further believe in the thing that he's above and beyond. And then, yet again things proved to act in Gilbert's favour. Destroy was deployed in Eurasia and leveled city after city untill the Archangel and Minerva arrived.

Then, when Kira killed Stellar, by striking Destroy down, it gave Shinn even more reason to continue his path of revenge on the EA (or whatever), or should I say, all of mankind? Anyway.

With Shinn's hate building up for Freedom, the Archangel and ORB, Gilbert sent out his new orders to take down the Archangel, making Shinn believe even further someone is watching over him, making all the stuff he wants to happen, happen, and thus, becoming even more manipulated by Gilbert, and now even by Rey.

I agree totally. You see things like this happen every day around you - spoiling people does not make for a nice person. Look at Ewan Blair and Prince Harry, for one (yeah...most of you don't know who the hell they are...figure it out ^_^). They seem to use their status as an excuse for loutish and aggressive behaviour - not quite the same for Shinn, but you see my point. It's easy to get carried away in that kind of situation.

So you have to a strong person to break the lock this causes - can Shinn do it? In my opinion, no. He's too far in now, and he enjoys the attention and power far too much for him to break away now.

Although, IMO, he's like most teenagers - he absorbs the views of those around him. So perhaps if he is captured by Archangel his views will start to change? Would be interesting. (But I don't want him to change, of course XD)

Strange though, how Athrun (who's been in a similar situation for the majority of both series) doesn't behave the same way. He's just too damn righteous. ^_^

I see your point, Inquisitor, and you know my views already so there is no point in repeating them. Hopefully we'll have a rematch, perhaps after Shinn has killed someone close to Kira (remember Kamille vs. Jerid? Might turn out like that!) where they can fight on more equal terms.

Although, I will say that Shinn is the more efficient pilot here. This is nothing to do with raw skill, but Shinn is much better at getting the necessary job done, for the overall battle, than Kira is. He goes for the right targets, knows his enemy, and gets the job done quickly and effectively without inconvience to his comrades. That, of course, is what comes from being a trained pilot, though.

davidiaw, fantastic post. I wish all the new people here were like you. ^_^ I would rep you but...I already did for your first post! XD

And the one that does the most illustrious things, no matter how indespicable, and the character that stands out and inspires and awes, I will consider my favourite character.
So who is it? :P Would be interesting to know.

He relied on emotions and spurs of the moment to guide him. So he should not? Would that be him not being mature enough? True. He's not mature. The reason he relied on his feelings, and not care about others was because that was the very thing that protected him, after his parents died. I may be wrong to say that about Shinn. But if Uchiha Itachi was once a good guy, someone who saved the world, I'm sure people will try to say that Itachi's deeds outweigh the fact that he killed his whole clan, and his brother should not kill him.
"We suffer because of our bonds" - another Naruto referance that fits perfectly to Shinn and your point here.

Nothing else really to say on your post, except a massive thumbs up! You can have a free stroke of Neko-Shinn as a reward.

I believe that Kira really tried to kill Shinn at one time. That was when he did that classic move where he dodges an attack, does a roll, and comes in with his beamsaber in waist height and cuts the gundam off. He might have cut Impulse in two if Impulse wasn't luanched in parts. Or, he might have done the same thing he did to Duel when he first got Freedom, meaning: Just cut off his legs.
Just rewatched that part, and it's so quick it's really hard to tell; but as we've seen him use that move to kill before, and as it was getting pretty desperate for Kira now, I wouldn't be surprised if he was aiming for the cockpit then. And besides, he's seen Impulse launch, so he must know that the legs are detachable.

Wasn't so concise after all....I get carried away ^_^;;

3rdStrike

06-14-2005, 11:54 AM

Just rewatched that part, and it's so quick it's really hard to tell; but as we've seen him use that move to kill before, and as it was getting pretty desperate for Kira now, I wouldn't be surprised if he was aiming for the cockpit then. And besides, he's seen Impulse launch, so he must know that the legs are detachable.

Wasn't so concise after all....I get carried away ^_^;;

I don't think Kira is that type of guy who would know that Impulse's limbs are detachable. Kira isn't that type that goes looking and analysing each mobile suit compared to Shinn, who is more prepared thatn Kira. Besides, he doens't seem to have time to analyze it during the battle since he was fighting off Shinn and protecting Archangel at the same time. Kira's objective in that fight was simply protect Archangel and try to disable the enemy ASAP. His objective wasn't to kill and destroy Impulse was it?

I guess we can say that Kira underestimated Impulse in a way. I mean I sense some superiority in him when it comes to battle. He looks like as if he can do anything and defeat anyone with Freedom. I don't know, but that's just my opinion of him in DESTINY.

ElelloN

06-14-2005, 12:03 PM

Kiba-kun

06-14-2005, 12:24 PM

I don't think Kira is that type of guy who would know that Impulse's limbs are detachable. Kira isn't that type that goes looking and analysing each mobile suit compared to Shinn, who is more prepared thatn Kira.

True, but I think it's more than a little obvious when seeing Impulse launch. He definately saw it launch in the battle against Orb/EA, and possibly at other times too - he can't be THAT stupid and fail to notice that Impulse is made up of four seperate parts - the rest of Archangel certainly know, as they recognized the four seperate heat sources must therefore be Impulse.

3rdStrike

06-14-2005, 07:34 PM

Yes, he act superior in battle but can you blame him? He lost once against Athrun when he self-destructed Aegis in his face. Freedom is what, how many times better?

Plus if you were told you were the ultimate human being would you act a little superior?

Never blamed him for acting or being superior. I mean he has all the qualities to do so. Just stating the fact that he IS. Sorry, I must be dumb or something, but I don't see how the fact that he lost to Athrun has anything to do with him being superior.

In addition to your question, if I was told that I was the ultimate human being, I would rather be humble and low-key about it. But that's just me.

True, but I think it's more than a little obvious when seeing Impulse launch. He definately saw it launch in the battle against Orb/EA, and possibly at other times too - he can't be THAT stupid and fail to notice that Impulse is made up of four seperate parts - the rest of Archangel certainly know, as they recognized the four seperate heat sources must therefore be Impulse.

Somehow, I just knew you were going to attack me with that point. I guess I mistyped in my other paragraph. I was meant to say, "Besides even if he does know about the detachable limbs, he doens't seem to have time to analyze it during the battle since he was fighting off Shinn and protecting Archangel at the same time". My bad.

My point is that Kira underestimated Impulse and Shinn. Period.

Somehow, that POINT didn't go through anyone.

antoine

06-14-2005, 08:19 PM

ElelloN

06-14-2005, 09:32 PM

Never blamed him for acting or being superior. I mean he has all the qualities to do so. Just stating the fact that he IS. Sorry, I must be dumb or something, but I don't see how the fact that he lost to Athrun has anything to do with him being superior.

In addition to your question, if I was told that I was the ultimate human being, I would rather be humble and low-key about it. But that's just me.
What I meant was that Kira lost just once with a gundam nowhere near the strength of his current.

Yeah, perhaps it all depends on the character. I think that I would be kinda humble if I were told that. But then again, I would kinda tell everybody that I was better than them. Im not perfect you see :\

But you got to remember that Kira's entire fighting style is based on his belief that he is superior to others, trying to disable your enemies without killing them must be extremly difficult.

Chillin

06-14-2005, 09:50 PM

zeheero1982

06-14-2005, 09:51 PM

They are both equal, Kira and Shin right now, because both pilot lost their Mobile suits. I would consider losing your main weapon as a lost. Please don't about Shin stab Kira's Freedom in the stomach. Kira's Freedom gave Impulse a nuke( I haven't seen the episode yet 34 that is, I just saw the pictures someone posted here) :laugh , So don't flame me if I am wrong. I am still waiting for Seed sub to come out with the translation.

ElelloN

06-14-2005, 10:02 PM

I really don't think his reason for not killing anyone is that he thinks they are beneath him. Kenshin holds even stricter beliefs and his reasons aren't because he thinks he's better than them. Of course he knows he is capable of doing it (beating them without killing them), same with Kira, but I think their reasons run deeper than that.
Perhaps I said it a little wrong, I didn't mean that he thought that they are to far below him to kill them.

Lets see... (looking for words)

He knows that he is better than them, and that he is able to defeat them without killing them. Its harder to just shooting the head/weapons/arms than just shooting the cockpit and be done with it. He know it is harder but still does it.

Damn, I cant seem to be able to explain myself correctly :\ Tell me if you dont understand and Il try again...

3rdStrike

06-15-2005, 12:16 AM

There is nothing wrong with "acting" superior because its basically being overconfident. Who would go fight a battle with a negative mindset?

I agree with your point about Kira underestimating Shinn, and I don't see why people disagree.

All the other times Kira has been on the battlefield with Impulse, it wasn't used in such a manner so that caught him off-guard so-to-speak, and since Kira basically expected Shinn to just use his beam and sword like other battles, that is what we call underestimation as 3rdstrike put it.

Thanks for getting my point. =D

But I won't choose the word overconfident but rather just confident since "overconfident" word adds a rather egoistic attribute to Kira's character which I disagree. But then egoistic is somehow tied with being superior so I might be contradicting myself here. To make it easier for you guys to comprehend, I would describe Kira as being confident and the extends as being "overconfident". Anyone got my comparsion here? :confused

They are both equal, Kira and Shin right now, because both pilot lost their Mobile suits. I would consider losing your main weapon as a lost. Please don't about Shin stab Kira's Freedom in the stomach. Kira's Freedom gave Impulse a nuke( I haven't seen the episode yet 34 that is, I just saw the pictures someone posted here) , So don't flame me if I am wrong. I am still waiting for Seed sub to come out with the translation.

Won't say they are equal. However, I am willing to discuss with you after you watched 34. :laugh

Perhaps I said it a little wrong, I didn't mean that he thought that they are to far below him to kill them.
Lets see... (looking for words)
He knows that he is better than them, and that he is able to defeat them without killing them. Its harder to just shooting the head/weapons/arms than just shooting the cockpit and be done with it. He know it is harder but still does it.
Damn, I cant seem to be able to explain myself correctly :\ Tell me if you dont understand and Il try again...

Haha. Word block? It's ok, I am having that problem now too. Don't worry. I think I get what you are trying to say now but that has nothing to do with Kira losing to Athrun though. :smile-big

Hmm. I would say that Kira may be too used with fighting those who he knows can be easily defeated, thus imposes the idea that Shinn and Impulse may be easily defeated too. Because of this, Kira underestimated Shinn and Impulse and thus got defeated. (If this is confusing, tell me and I shall try hard rewording it)

antoine

06-15-2005, 03:51 AM

I guess I crossed it with "overconfident", but well put.

Aegis

06-15-2005, 06:22 AM

All I have to say is, for myself, Shinn really made Destiny much less enjoyable than the first series. After seeing the first series I was willing to buy the whole dvd collection, but now I do not want to support them since they are failing to entertain me on Destiny.

ssouske

06-15-2005, 08:06 AM

Whoa... 1 day offline and I missed soo much...

About the roll and slash move that kira made... if im not mistaken, kira can always change the direction of his beamsaber midway through that move... just like he did it against Yzak in Joshua... but then again, that move is always targeted on the cockpit... but kira does move it to the legs... maybe he targeted somewhere near the cockpit... since he already knows that impulse can split up... (shinn did split up with his chest flyer in front of kira then shot it till it exploded)

I kira is not acting superior at all... the reason why he does not kill his enemies is because of that experience with his fight against athrun in SEED... he saw that killing brings vengence and hatred... both drive people to kill(see what happened to shinn) and so it goes round and round... he believes that he can stop the war without killing... in doing that, not only that he spares lives, but he also stops the growth of vengence and hatred... also there is a chance to make his enemies to realize the value of life... i agree with chillin that kira has somewhat that similar belief with kenshin... on now i'll stop comparing kira with kenshin... :laugh
now going back to the topic, i disagree with aegis... shinn makes GSD interesting... his actions make GSD somewhat unpredictable and exciting... he owned freedom and now everybody is trying to guess what really happened to kira... even the explosion itself is questionable... no one knows if it was the nuke reactor (shinn's fault) or the blast from the tannhauser... :laugh the real reason why some people hate him is his attutude... especially now that he owned kira... more kira fanboys will definitely hate him...(im one of em! :laugh ) and that psycho look when he destroyed freedom really spooked me... but shinn still has time to go and move on and get his proper character development... so give him a chance... agree?

Aegis

06-15-2005, 07:21 PM

heh, if you think someone like Shinn makes things interesting, that's pretty sad. no offense. exactly wut is so unpredictable about Shinn? Is his character that complex?

ssouske

06-15-2005, 07:35 PM

heh, if you think someone like Shinn makes things interesting, that's pretty sad. no offense. exactly wut is so unpredictable about Shinn? Is his character that complex?
hmmm.... you seem to have that "i hate shinn soo much" thing... :) dunn worry you're not alone... hehehe! but in fairness to shinn, come on, we never thought that shinn would do those moves against kira...(refering to shinn using the flyers as weapons) actually he never used those moves before... shinn is a character that is starting to improve... its just a matter of time when his character will start to improve... now there are 2 paths for him now... the "i'll be a hero of justice from now on" or "I will become evil and i will be manipulated by gil and his girlfriend rey..." :laugh And as of now, we don't know which path he will take... which brings in more speculations and more fun for seed and seed destiny viewers. now i'll leave the defense of shinn to the real shinn fanboys out there... im starting to run out of ideas since im no shinn fanboy... kiba-kun, jikes could you help me out here? hehehe! :laugh

Rakumaru

06-15-2005, 07:59 PM

Man just watched that fight, it was something else. I think they are pretty much equal as piolets at this point, but Shinn was better prepared. The detachable dodge technique was... classic lol

dotWizard

06-15-2005, 10:38 PM

Before the entire Stellar incident, I didn't like Shinn, but I didn't hate him either. He had his reasons for joining the war and fending off Earth Alliance. Shinn lost his sister, mother, father, and the life he knew and loved. As stated by some people in this topic, it's understandable that he's a little messed up after seeing his sister's bloodied corpse.

However, Shinn is turning into a demented murderer. Kira killed Stellar? Yes, he did kill Stellar, but under what circumstances? Stellar annihilated THREE cities already. Shinn lost his family and Orb wasn't even completely destroyed. Imagine how many "Shinns" Stellar just created. The ZAFT ace lacks understanding. He takes facts and manipulates them to justify his actions. Kira took down Stellar? Forget everything else. Just see that Freedom murdered Destroy. Now, I have to take revenge for him killing my innocent love.

Shinn doesn't value life as one would think he would. He's living as a part of ZAFT as a result of three individuals lost in one battle. Does he pull a Kira-like stance? No. He does the next best thing. He slaughters everyone that opposes Dullindal's views. In terms of growth, we don't see Shinn's beliefs at all. In the beginning, he was likable. He flew out and started rambling (as is expected) about why people break peace, etc. Justified. After that, he flies out whenever Minerva or Dullindal calls and kills everyone that is marked ENEMY.

I have to admit, I do like Kira. After all, he flies out and just takes down everyone. What's not to like? Why do I like Kira? Shinn takes pretty much everyone down too. My favorite pilot has a goal. He has morals. He pilots as a result of reasoning. I'll give you that he does some stupid things, like disabling entire battlefields because it's the only thing that can be done.

I do believe he reduces the number of casualties, but if he had so much vision as to kidnap Cagalli and become a renegade ship once again, why has he and Archangel spent the last dozen or so episodes just floating around apparent battlefields, giving unwanted aid? So far, diplomacy seems beyond Archangel. All they do is wait around for a battle and disable all units when the time comes, which isn't a bad thing. Countless Orb lives were saved, but they don't seem to be doing anything other than that.

So while I like Kira and Archangel, I admit they're approaching the problem the wrong way somewhat. There. I've said it. Overall, Kira only wants to protect Archangel, who embodies his ideals (since he has a great amount of influence), the people he cares about, and the peace that preceded the war. He might not go about it in a way we'd all agree with, but he has admirable traits.

Back to Shinn, the bastard took down Kira with warped logic to justify his intent to kill. That is why I call him a demented murderer. He thinks of how Kira dual-stabbed Destroy. Gee. Did you think about what Destroy was doing? It was firing off its ginormous laser beam. The beam probably would have destroyed Freedom, Impulse, the rest of what's left of the city they're in, and if I'm not mistaken Archangel/Minerva. One of them was most likely around there. It was most likely Minerva.

I hope that either Kira, Athrun, or Stellar's ghost gets to slap him around. "Twice the pride. Double the fall."

I'm posting here for the first time, because Shinn pissed me off with his laughing and emotional crying in episode 34. All the smirking before and during the battle irritated me. Then, when it was all over, the bastard thinks himself to be a hero/martyr for a cause.

Thoughts after 34: !@#%!@$#!@%$!@$~!@$%!@%!#@%!@$ Arg. Arg. ARG.

Crimson

06-15-2005, 11:20 PM

Alright. Pure Battle analysis. Shinn is NOT evenly matched with Kira. Fine, their Mobile Suits arent either. But you never see Kira wasting whole Brand Spanking new GUNDAM sections to destroy ONE MS enemy thats NOT technically fighting back (only defending) all the while having trained in battling against him PRIOR to the combat. From that standpoint alone Shinn is quite FAR away from reaching Kiras level of skill with an MS.
Now when it comes to the pilots themselves, Shinn was not only extensively prepared for defeating the Freedom during that last battle, but he had been VIOLENTLY placed in that mindset ever since he drowned Stellar in that Lake. Blaming Kira and The Freedom for everything that happened, he had something to fight for, something to techinically, from his perspective, to truly live for, even if it would be incredible hard to achieve. Spiritually speaking (yea bare with me here), a person with that kind of mindset during a war with a weapon such as the Impulse is EXTREMELY dangerous.
Kira on the other hand, was still out of focus coming from hearing that speech from Dullindal, which as everyone whos seen the episode, enraged Kira (even if he didnt seem like it a few minutes later).Then, not only was the Archangel suprisingly attacked by none other than the Minerva, but the Archangel was in danger of being sunk, something that Kira will NOT allow. Yet at the same time, he was STILL saving enemy troops by refusing to destory MS main bodies so as to not kill the pilots. And of Course, this is when Shinn takes the opportunity to attack. Its like putting a 1 against a 3, and then subtracting 3 from the 3 and adding 4 to the 1. Even if your three times better than your opponent-- with extensive resources, battle data, technical data, internal confusion rattling your opponent, as well as an intent to kill that rivals Kamille and Judau's Pressure in the end of Zeta and Double Zeta, winning against an all powerful opponent is an easy task.

My opinion? Shinn is becoming a much better pilot, but hes still far too fueled by his anger to be a great pilot. I c a tragic end for him the way hes going unfortunately.

ssouske

06-15-2005, 11:22 PM

Imagine how many "Shinns" Stellar just created.

lol! :laugh i remember saying something similar in the previous pages... hehehe! that does give me the chills... imagine central europe 2-3 years after destiny... all those shinns walking and cursing EAF/LOGOS to death... :blink

cowabunga2k3

06-16-2005, 03:10 AM

cowabunga2k3

06-16-2005, 03:35 AM

not sure if any of u guys realized this but unless i'm an idiot... i'm pretty sure kira shinn was the only one to go seed mode in the fight... and i'm pretty sure that shinn seed kira not seed makes a moderate amount of difference...

acutally oops looks like he was since the beginning... according to the "eyes". i dunno i still personally think he wasn't seeded, i find it kinda fked up that the directors show EVERY SINGLE TIME somebody going seed then all of a sudden they don't show kira going seed in possibly the most important fight of GSD, and instead expecting ppl to look closely at his eyes and go "OMG HE'S ACTUALLY IN SEED MODE" -.- bs

dotWizard

06-16-2005, 01:05 PM

Yep, the first thing I noticed after Shinn went into SEED mode was that Kira's eyes had already changed.

Shinn is becoming a very versatile pilot. He's using his MS very creatively, and his accuracy and evasion has improved greatly.

There are things, however, that I dislike Shinn and Minerva for taking advantage of.

1. Kira only aims for weapons and main camera.
2. Kira and Archangel are on the defensive and fleeing from a fleet.
3. Archangel has no intention of destroying Minerva or the other ship, just disabling.
4. They're outnumbered.

I understand that they're at war, so the more advantages a side can gain, the better they are, but if anyone is comparing Kira to Shinn, these conditions aren't really fair.

Most of the battle, Kira is staring back at Archangel's being bombarded by missiles.

I hope Kira and Shinn have a better battle around 40-50, which will probably take part in space/near PLANT if past Gundam series have taught us anything.

Is it me, or is SEED mode becoming cheap to come by now? Everyone that's anyone in the series has it. :I I liked it before, because it was an ability only some Coordinators had. Now, every main character has it...

Kiba-kun

06-17-2005, 11:15 AM

I do believe he reduces the number of casualties, but if he had so much vision as to kidnap Cagalli and become a renegade ship once again, why has he and Archangel spent the last dozen or so episodes just floating around apparent battlefields, giving unwanted aid? So far, diplomacy seems beyond Archangel. All they do is wait around for a battle and disable all units when the time comes, which isn't a bad thing. Countless Orb lives were saved, but they don't seem to be doing anything other than that.

So while I like Kira and Archangel, I admit they're approaching the problem the wrong way somewhat. There. I've said it. Overall, Kira only wants to protect Archangel, who embodies his ideals (since he has a great amount of influence), the people he cares about, and the peace that preceded the war. He might not go about it in a way we'd all agree with, but he has admirable traits.

Agreed, been saying that for a while. "Unwanted aid" is exactly the way to put it; but I'd have to disagree with it being not a "bad thing" to a point. They do cause a lot of disruption by doing this, and whether it was worthwhile in Berlin is very debatable - check back a few pages to see this.

Alright. Pure Battle analysis. Shinn is NOT evenly matched with Kira. Fine, their Mobile Suits arent either. But you never see Kira wasting whole Brand Spanking new GUNDAM sections to destroy ONE MS enemy thats NOT technically fighting back (only defending) all the while having trained in battling against him PRIOR to the combat. From that standpoint alone Shinn is quite FAR away from reaching Kiras level of skill with an MS.

That doesn't make much sense o.O Firstly, losing the sections was part of the strategy, and is very much a part of Impulse's design. It's not like they can't afford more. I don't see how this is a bad thing, somehow. And it's not just 'ONE ms', it's the most dangerous MS on the planet. Everything else in your post has been said before. ^_^;

dotWizard, I agree with I hope Kira and Shinn have a better battle around 40-50, which will probably take part in space/near PLANT if past Gundam series have taught us anything. WHOLEHEARTEDLY! It NEEDS to happen. Congrats on making two excellent first posts as well. ^_^

dotWizard

06-17-2005, 05:22 PM

Agreed, been saying that for a while. "Unwanted aid" is exactly the way to put it; but I'd have to disagree with it being not a "bad thing" to a point. They do cause a lot of disruption by doing this, and whether it was worthwhile in Berlin is very debatable - check back a few pages to see this.

It does cause confusion, and people do die because of it, such as Heine who was winning against Stellar to begin with. I don't really like to argue with..."look at what would happen if they were not there," because it happened the way it did, and there's no going around it. But for the sake of arguing that Archangel and Kira being there did not have a really good or really bad effect, I'll make it as short as I can.

Minerva was about to fire the Tanhauser at the Orb fleet. Worst comes to worst, Orb carrier ship is destroyed. Shinn destroys the smaller ships. Orb wiped out.

Say...the Tanhauser was destroyed as it was by a beam from the sky. Shinn and Athrun would destroy some MS and ships. Due to the sheer numbers, Minerva takes damage and is forced to retreat, not without damaging Orb's numbers a bit. The EA nations around would probably be able to track Minerva, which is needing repair, and attack with its forces.

The forces at that battle were primarily Orb, one country.

There is a definite chance the Minerva could have escaped with heavy Orb casualties and a very damaged ship, putting it out of action for quite some time.

Now, with Kira and Archangel there, they managed to spare quite a few MS deaths by Kira's disabling, making the MS count of the Orb fleet managable for Minerva. Shinn was able to destroy Auel. Let's face it. He probably wouldn't have if he wasn't in SEED, which was started by Kira. Heine does die. Darn. Minerva does take heavy damage. Athrun is basically taken out of battle to stop Kira. Shinn is able to destroy most of Orb's ships.

Hmm..could he have done that if Kira was not present, causing him to go into SEED mode? Probably not. Could Athrun, Heine, and Shinn combined destroy Orb's fleet? A very good chance. Heine could have disabled/killed Stellar. Athrun could have disabled/killed Sting. Shinn...could...have..had help, I guess. Wow, aren't we on a tangent?

Coming back to the previous speculation, Kira and Archangel's presence did not make the battle much worse. They did not make the outcome much better. So, I just label it as a "it happened."

While Kira and Archangel's intervention was unwanted, they had as much reason to participate as Orb's fleet and Minerva. They weren't just doing it all for the hell of it. Their "aid" had both negative effects (Heine dying as well as Orb's...quicker destruction) and positive effects (Orb's faithful members join Archangel)

Had they not had a reason to join in the battle, Kira and Archangel's joining had positive and negative effects on both sides, so saying bad things happened because of them is true. Good things also happened because of them.

But, because they did have a logical reason for participating and not standing by while two forces destroy each other, I think it's unfair to think of Kira and Archangel as mere nuisances. They had as much riding on that battle as Orb and Minerva. It's not the first time three separate forces did battle in the Gundam series. :)

Mindless

06-17-2005, 07:30 PM

^

:bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow

Totally agree. The Archangel coming to these battles had both positive and negative effects. And since everyone has their biased opinion, the discussion becomes biased, such as: "The Archangel was only in the way in episode 34." (for example) -true, they might have been in the way, but they also did help, didn't they?

Eventhough some are Shinn-haters and whatnot, you should try looking at it from both point of views, no matter how hard that may be. :)

Anyway. Totally agree with the above post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Inquisitor

06-17-2005, 09:46 PM

Eventhough some are Shinn-haters and whatnot, you should try looking at it from both point of views, no matter how hard that may be. :)

But it's so much more fun to blindly attack Shinn ;)

Seriously though, I agree with the two above posts. However, I think that one can certainly form an opinion on Shinn vs. Kira based on the events of the series. It's not just a matter of bias, and there is only so much skewing one person can do (as an example, not even Kiba-kun can refute the fact that Shinn has a lot of angst). Finally, our questions about who is better pilot, will likely be answered eventually, and when they are I hope to see Shinn passing on to the afterlife (for Captain Todaka!).

Chillin

06-18-2005, 01:00 AM

You know after I while I didn't think Shinn and Stellar belonged together. Then all of a sudden when Stellar died I began to think Shinn would go perfectly with Stellar. :amuse

Kiba-kun

06-18-2005, 09:09 AM

I find myself agreeing with dotWizard on most points of fact, cept the one about it being unfair to think of them as mere nuisances ^_^;;;; But that's pure opinion on my part. Great post, nicely unbiased!

Speaking of bias, I do know that I'm very, very biased, and I don't wanna do anything about it ^_^ Tis more fun for me that way! I totally agree with
But it's so much more fun to blindly attack Shinncept replacing Shinn with Kira, of course. That's the reason I made the thread. ^_^

You know after I while I didn't think Shinn and Stellar belonged together. Then all of a sudden when Stellar died I began to think Shinn would go perfectly with Stellar.
There's a new topic for discussion, to tide us over until more Shinn vs Kira stuff comes up (unless anyone can think of anything we haven't gone over a million times XD). Did Shinn and Stellar really go together?

IMO, no. BUT! That doesn't make their relationship any more special. I think Shinn was trying to use her to fill a gap that was created when he lost his sister. She was used by him as something to protect and care for, and to give more meaning to his life. I'm not sure that romance really applied here.

dotWizard

06-18-2005, 01:37 PM

Do you mean if Shinn belongs dead in a lake with Stellar...? :amuse

me_is_david

06-18-2005, 03:06 PM

Do you mean if Shinn belongs dead in a lake with Stellar...? :amuse

That would've been a good/sad ending I think.
To die together, since they both really have nothing left
Even though that was a joke... its a pretty good idea haha ^_^;;

That was already sad enough though...I cried T-T...yes I'm a dude and got teary over Stellar's death XD

but like people say... either you love him or you hate him..there really isn't an inbetween at this point after eps 34
People who like Kira more than Shinn will dislike Shinn for what he did, and people who like Shinn more than Kira will love Shinn for what he did (like me ^_^)
beh..I guess you can call me a fanboy but I really understand why Shinn would be like that...hell if it happened to me I would do the exact samet hing
which is why I like Shinn

Anyway, do Shinn and Stellar belong together?...I say yes just because its my favorite couple (completely bias there)
However. I dont think he was trying to use her to fill a gap or else he'd be trying to do that with other people.
He is 16 and of course love is an issue..I just feel that he fell for her while in the cave.
He says all that protecting stuff because it calms her down, and makes her feel happy I suppose.
In the end I believe he really cared for her, and so did Stellar when she said "I like you"
Although it doesn't mean love, I think it does and that makes it more sad.

dotWizard

06-18-2005, 03:58 PM

Well, putting my extreme dislike for Shinn aside, I think Stellar is too...out there for Shinn. She doesn't offer much in terms of conversation. She is pretty, but intellectually, she doesn't seem all there.

Shinn is a very intelligent, though sometimes misguided, person. His attraction for her is based on a need/want relationship. She wants someone to protect her. He wants a person who needs him. After losing everyone who cared about him, I can see Shinn as a person who is actively against instigators of war but wants companionship most of all. Someone to love who loves him. Stellar gives this openly, because she's (well, to put it frankly) mostly an unthinking individual who connects those that protect her from "death," the frightening word, with the people she loves. Neo promised her protection from death, and in that cave episode, so did Shinn.

Stellar, who was brought up in a dangerous environment, seeks peace from war and death. Her mind isn't quite there due to drugs, training, constant battle, brain wipes, etc. Much like Shinn, she wants someone to shelter her from the dangerous world outside. Whereas Stellar is dealing with the death and the world on a physical level, Shinn is dealing with everything on an emotional level. She's afraid of dying in battle. He's afraid of the memory of the death of his loved ones.

Together, they do fit. While he makes a sincere (yet impossible) promise to protect her, she gives him someone to care about. His heart was pretty much closed to everyone since his family died, and she finally healed his aching heart by providing him someone to care for again. In a perverse way, a part of why he cares about Stellar is that she reflects his sister. He now has a second chance to protect his sister from the outside world.

So in that cave, they're sheltered from the physical and emotional world literally and metaphorically by being together there and complimenting each other's strengths and weaknesses.

If Stellar was more of a conversationalist, they'd be perfect together. But thus far, I feel Shinn's not being fulfilled intellectually.

Should Shinn die? Yes, but he should die in a glorified, martyr-like way. After understanding war, death, revenge, vengeance, etc like Kira, Lacus, Athrun, he'll pull a Zechs Marquise and turn out to be a good guy.

Though, I could see a bittersweet ending where he lives on, but I'm sure fans will disapprove of him moving on to another woman in the alotted time of 16 episodes and an epilogue.

Personally, I want him to die to be reunited with Stellar. If Lacus died, I'd want Kira to die too. So, in order to say I'm truly putting my dislike for Shinn aside, I think Shinn should die.

Now, back to my dislike for Shinn. Yes, I think Shinn should die a long, horrible, painful death. Maybe having his seatbelt stuck and having to starve in the Destiny cockpit. :laugh

me_is_david

06-18-2005, 04:20 PM

Damn your good lol
I agree with everything you said up there...very well said.
except for the part about Shinn dying horribly ^_^

When you put it like that they seem good for eachother, I mean sure she can't hold a convo as good as Sting and Auel but I think she was shot wth alot more drugs than they were.

At this point I think he should die but a good death like you said.
He literally has nothing, only Rey as his friend plus Vino and Youlan, but thats it.
He has not female companionship, if at this point your saying Luna and Meyrin.
I get the feeling they will betray and go with Athrun cuz to them, Athrun > Shinn. Thats the feeling I get, and is possibly true, with Meyrin helping Athrun, I can see Luna running away with Impulse.

Anyway, point being Shinn will have nothing. I'd rather seem him die than with someone else, because it would be retarded to set him up with someone else so quickly. Although they did that with Kira, but at least they foreshadowed his relationship with Lacus, all the OPs and such.
As sad as it may be, Shinn will be alone, hell he is pretty much alone now.
He's always been on the edge, and Stellar's death pushed him over and he went for what he believed caused her death. Which was Freedom, he is unstable and thats what makes me like him so much because I can see myself doing that.
Maybe he'll realize Logo's is the one who brings about all his sadness and will fight them for it. If he realizes Dullindal is part of it then he'll turn on him too.
He is a ZAFT soldier but he isn't dedicated, he has no reason to fight for them.
He is like old Gaara, he fights only for himself and does what he wants to do. I love that about him, he wont knowingly be a lapdog to anyone.
With that said I think a heroic death will be suitable for him.

Also, I haven't seen Zeta, but I know Kamille and Shinn are the same and they both lost their loved ones who were in giant Gundams (Stellar/Destroy, Four/Psycho). I can see the way Shinn ending up will be similar to Kamille if he doesnt die. But like I said I havent seen Zeta yet so I don't know how it went.

Chillin

06-19-2005, 01:25 AM

Do you mean if Shinn belongs dead in a lake with Stellar...? :amuse

That's what I meant, Kiba-kun missed the joke :laugh

davidsiaw

06-19-2005, 02:30 AM

Crimson

06-19-2005, 03:31 AM

That doesn't make much sense o.O Firstly, losing the sections was part of the strategy, and is very much a part of Impulse's design. It's not like they can't afford more. I don't see how this is a bad thing, somehow. And it's not just 'ONE ms', it's the most dangerous MS on the planet. Everything else in your post has been said before. ^_^;

Names Crimson btw :notrust....and it makes perfect sense. Your taking it from a subjective standpoint. I comprehend that disassembling the Impulse for defensive or offensive manuevers is indeed a battle strategy of the Impulse. The V Gundam In the Victory Gundam series does this as well. But from a purely objective view, the strategy calls for the MS to reintegrate with its same seperated parts, not for the pilot too have to ask for replacement parts. Now unless Im mistaken, the Impulse is not too far behind the Freedom in terms of power as well, save for added thrust and indefinite power. The Input just doesnt equal the output. With the amount of resources used and the amount of prior practice undergone too destroy the Freedom during the Minerva's next encounter with it, the Impulse shouldve theoretically been able to take on 2 Freedom Gundams (also considering the situation with Kira being on a complete disadvantage battlefield wise). And this was due to Shinn's lack of battle experience in comparison with Kira.

Shinn used a Last Ditch effort battle strategy to defeat Freedom in a situation where the opponent (the Freedom) had a really high probability of demonstrating weakness due to its pilots position in the battlefield, both physically and mentally. Shinn used effective strategy for the situation (as he DID destroy the Freedom), but NOT skillful. Note: Remember that im not taking into account that the Minerva seems to get Indefinate supplies thanks to Dullindal's support for it and the such. This is why I said Shinn's tactics were effective, but not skillful.

Also, I haven't seen Zeta, but I know Kamille and Shinn are the same and they both lost their loved ones who were in giant Gundams (Stellar/Destroy, Four/Psycho). I can see the way Shinn ending up will be similar to Kamille if he doesnt die. But like I said I havent seen Zeta yet so I don't know how it went.

Kamille ends up with Fa at the end of ZZ (quite happily I might add), and Fa is the equivalent of Lunamaria (or at least somewhat) and Stellar is the equivalent of Four (Kamilles love). So if it is indeed following that storyline, then theirs a possibility something might happen between those two. Personally, I dont have a problem with Shinn's character. I dont like him, I dont dislike him. So whenever I talk about his character or his character's actions, its always from an objective point of view. With that said I dont think its easy to guess that Shinn will in fact die if Destiny is following Z and ZZ's plot structure. I guess a good deal of Shinns future depends on this Noni Loussier im hearing about. :P

Two wrongs don't make one right. And no matter how evil Dullindal may be about to become, he has done something wonderful for the world. He has struck right at the heart of the conflict, the men who added flame to the fire, the Blue Cosmos. And that isn't such a bad thing now is it? Calgalli's talk about how the Seirans are related so closely to Blue Cosmos is purely out of concern of her own country and has nothing to do with ending the conflict. Dullandal has accomplished with a single broadcast what the Archangel has been working their butts off to achieve all along.
Since thats COMPLETELY off topic, im putting my answer to that within spoiler tags: Not only is that pure speculation, but he struck at what he CLAIMS to be Logos (its not blue cosmos). Why am I saying this? because Dullindal DEFINATELY has a hidden agenda. Use Trend analysis; He knew about Stellar, he knew about the Destroy, he knows who Neo is, and he knows who Djibril is as well. He may very well be the ORIGIN of that flame your attesting hes trying to put out. He could very well be the ringleader of Logos or even worse, he could be part of another organization, the one responsible for Mwu's revival or comeback as Neo (if thats even Mwu, it might be a clone) as well as the clone of Mwu (Kreuze). And theirs no denying that by making that announcement, hes spread the fires of war further. Except for perhaps him, not many know what power the supposed Logos members hold. The battles will intensify further, something that The Archangel and its crew have been trying to stop.
Even more demented is that the Logos members Dullindal mentioned are ALL from the EA (since Orb joined the EA and it hasnt been taken back yet, the orb members targeted are still technically part of the EA). One would think that with a name like Logos, which means literally "Word" and is used to describe the all knowing, (and sometimes refered to as jesus), that the organization would consist of people with power in ALL known places, not just the EA.
I think your jumping more than just a gun by saying what you said; I think your jumping a bridge thats gonna crumble before you can jump it.

davidsiaw

06-19-2005, 04:34 AM

It is not off-topic. It is extremely relevant in order to explain the shinn-kira rivalry.

bakaducky

06-19-2005, 04:52 AM

dotWizard

06-19-2005, 04:58 AM

Well... I hope Shinn finds someone's shoulders to cry on someday. Poor him. The only thing he gets is punches in the face from losing his most important people, from seeing his comrades constantly defeated and from Athrun. The only place he finds comfort in is his accomplishments. And you guys are cruel to want him to die. That's the life of a soldier. I'm sure if you were a soldier you would'nt want to die even if you pledged it.

His past is a wicked one and it's sad that he lost Stellar, but those two things are most of why people like him and pity him. When you look at his behavior and respect for others, you don't see the person who lost everyone he loved. You see a spoiled, arrogant showoff, who rubs every single thing he does right in people's noses. And when he does things wrong? He scowls at people advising him or blows them off completely until he does something right and makes sure everyone knows it.

My compassion goes to the boy who lost his parents and sister. It also goes to the same honest, simple, kind-hearted boy who fell in love with Stellar. I feel that that boy is different from the person we see most of the series.

The person he is normally did need a reality check. It came from Athrun--a person he admired at first and, over time, had become rivals with. He isn't punched "for losing his most important people" or "from seeing his comrades constantly defeated." He's punched for using Kira as a scapegoat for his losses. He's punched for using Kira's kindness and mercy as an advantage and weapon against Kira himself. Shinn was doing his duty. Right. He probably couldn't have disabled Kira if he tried. However, he didn't think about Kira. He had an intention to kill, studied Kira's "weaknesses," and, to top it off, insensitively exudes joy and happiness in front of Kira's former friend and comrade. What did he expect? A "thank you" from Athrun?

Since we're using real world examples, the veterans of Vietnam were treated like garbage due to the home front developing an anti-war attitude. Partly because the war disgraced America and radicals promoted anti-war sentiment, veterans were unjustly mistreated. This was wrong. They didn't deserve to be treated this way. They flew halfway around the world to fight for what Americans originally believed in. This is true.

However, if a veteran went up to a Vietnamese person and said, "I killed your once-brother-turned-Communist," I'm not so sure it would be completely wrong for the Vietnamese person to get angry and punch the veteran. Even though his brother was a Communist, it's disrespectful to have a joyful attitude and almost brag about it.

People who express their desire for Shinn to die on these forums are generally exaggerating their dislike for Shinn. He doesn't deserve to die a miserable death, but he's sure making up in jerk minutes for the time he spent as a sad, lonely boy. Poor Shinn.

Kira and the archangel on the other hand, (forgive me if I offend anyone) are misguided in my opinion. They simply appear everywhere and try to disable everyone from fighting, it won't really stop people from fighting now would it? You just create lots of collateral damage. They are a powerful bunch, as is understood, and can do many great things. But even if they are trying to stop a war, no matter how powerful they are, I don't see how much they can accomplish without any planning. In the end, they simply make enemies from both major sides... LOL talk about trying to stop a war.

I'm sure Kira and Archangel didn't expect to stop the entire war by participating in these battles. Orb is their country, and the people in the Orb fleet are their friends and former comrades. Politics decided the battle Orb had to fight. Todaka and most of the Orb fleet did not want to be there, but what were they to do? Everyone call in sick? The leaders of Orb decided to join the Earth Alliance, regardless of the peoples' wishes. I'm sure it wasn't as extreme as deserters will be shot, but if a good amount of the military and navy fail to participate, the Earth Alliance will turn on Orb as Orb has turned on their agreement. Who would suffer then? The citizens of Orb. Shinns.

Kira and Archangel accomplished part of what they sought to accomplish. They saved some of Orb's "innocents"--being those that were forced into war. In the end, Orb maintained peace with Earth Alliance, and Kira and Archangel were able to save some men true to Orb. Maybe things could have turned out better, and they definitely could have planned better, but speculation brings many possibilities. I could spend quite a bit of time talking about "what ifs." Sure, they created a lot of collateral damage in disabling weapons and ships, etc, but what they did might have spared the Orb fleet or Minerva complete destruction. Maybe. A little bit more planning would have been nice, but they weren't exactly given a week to prepare.

As for Kira and Archangel becoming enemies with both sides, I don't think it's as bad as you say. On EA side, who are they losing votes from? The politicians they were originally against. No big loss. As for Minerva's vote? Minerva and ZAFT don't see Kira and Archangel as immediate enemies. However, they do find them to be a danger. A wildcard to be monitored. They aren't an enemy to ZAFT until the politicians of ZAFT make their move. Minerva as a whole hesitates, indicating no blinding hatred there.

Two wrongs don't make one right. And no matter how evil Dullindal may be about to become, he has done something wonderful for the world. He has struck right at the heart of the conflict, the men who added flame to the fire, the Blue Cosmos. And that isn't such a bad thing now is it? Calgalli's talk about how the Seirans are related so closely to Blue Cosmos is purely out of concern of her own country and has nothing to do with ending the conflict. Dullandal has accomplished with a single broadcast what the Archangel has been working their butts off to achieve all along.

I'm not sure which two wrongs you're talking about. Is Orb completely wrong in putting their worries in the people of Orb, going to war to ensure peace, and striving to prevent more Shinns? Are Kira and Archangel completely wrong in trying to prevent their country's men and women in uniform from being wiped out?

As for Dullindal, he did do something for the world. He did name names for people to point at. Ironic. Logos was pointing fingers at others to profit from war. Dullindal points his fingers at Logos, and the people who once aligned their hatred and malice with Logos now align their hatred and malice with Dullindal. Can war truly end if it's so easy to point fingers and issue blame?

Let's look at what Cagalli said. "Among those displayed are those who have deep ties with Saran... no, with Orb. No, not just Orb... There isn't a single country that isn't associated with their global companies! What does Chairman Dullindal intend to do about that?"

So the people decide to take down the members of Logos. Hatred spreads. The leaders of Orb were closely associated with these companies. Fingers are pointed. People are killed. Who leads these countries now? What happens when the person or people nominated aren't unanimously agreed upon? Civil war. Can Dullindal really end war by declaring these people warmongerers and leaving the rest to the people? Who's to say those that rise to power won't repeat the mistake of their predecessors?

I'd rather count the licks in a Tootsie Pop. :oh

me_is_david

06-19-2005, 12:18 PM

Okay holy shit you wrote alot lol
I even read through all of it too ^_^

But I just cant seem to resist replying with something that has to do with Shinn ><
Just because I don't believe he is a horrible person that everyone makes him out as.
But like I said before somewhere he is suposed to be hated/disliked. Like Fllay and co. but there are those select few who like him. We could argue forever about it but who wants to argue forever?
I can see where his personality comes from, I'd be the same way.

If I lost my family, I would feel the same way Shinn did.
If I knew that war killed my family I'd do the same thing (be a soldier)
I would be on edge all the time, when he is angry he just blames thigns on what he believe is the right one.
For example Orb causing the death of his family, if Bush was all like "We won't let anything happen, we will protect ideals of peace" Although he would NEVER say that ... just as an example.
I would be like "man screw you , you piece of crap..ideals my ass" just like Shinn
Being a teenager who never had a girlfriend, and spent some time talking with and such with a pretty girl, I would start to fall for her too. Especially after saying stuf flike "I'll protect you"
Since Shinn dislikes Orb, they don't want to fight before and now they fight, I would call them hypocrites too if I was in Shinn's position. Which would add to my anger even more.
A random group, even if they were a famous one. They also belong to Orb, telling everyone to just stop right now because we said so. I would be like WTF, who do they think they are? Gods? .. to tell us to stop everything right now.
From Shinn's POV Freedom caused Heine's death, I believe that too. So I would get more pissed.
They appear again and again, adding more anger.
Then here comes Stellar, she dies, because of who? Freedom. If I was in Shinn's position and something I hated caused the death of a girl I liked I would want to seek revenge too. I would actually snap, sorta like Shinn did.
No matter what I would wnat to destroy Freedom, the thing that brings my anger.

Thus this is why I like Shinn. It may not make too much sense, but basically, if I was Shinn I'd do the same thing. It's not right but it all depends how someone is. Some people would act this way too, as for being disrespectful to Athrun and such. Hell I wouldn't take shit from him at that point. Just because he's a legend, doesn't mean he has to bow down before him everytime.
In Shinn's eye's Athrun did shit, makes him doubt his greatness.
Sure there are things wrong with that but thats how I see it.

I have no idea why I typed my reasons for liking Shinn lol ^_^;;
But I can say, wouldn't you guys do the same thing? (Especially attacking Freedom) I know I would, which is why I like Shinn

Mindless

06-19-2005, 02:31 PM

Also, I haven't seen Zeta, but I know Kamille and Shinn are the same and they both lost their loved ones who were in giant Gundams (Stellar/Destroy, Four/Psycho). I can see the way Shinn ending up will be similar to Kamille if he doesnt die. But like I said I havent seen Zeta yet so I don't know how it went.

Indeed, they are both quite similar. Very similar infact. But, there are fundemental differences. Kamille, instead of turning from a arrogant, vengeful brat, to an even more arrogant, vengeful brat. Kamille accepted the fact that Four died, and all of his other loved ones, and instead of turning thoes into hate, he turned them into his strenght, into his will to live. Shinn on the other hand. He became worse with every single episode. Right now, you could say he's at his top. This is the worse he has been so far. As dotWizard said:

The person he is normally did need a reality check. It came from Athrun--a person he admired at first and, over time, had become rivals with. He isn't punched "for losing his most important people" or "from seeing his comrades constantly defeated." He's punched for using Kira as a scapegoat for his losses. He's punched for using Kira's kindness and mercy as an advantage and weapon against Kira himself.

You can never really compare Kamille and Shinn. Kamille's life makes Shinn's life look pale in comparison. Kamille, like Shinn, lost both his parents before his very eyes. He had close people to him betray him, he had enemies becoming friends, and becoming enemies again. He had tons of close friends to him die. And NEVER did Kamille kill anyone with real hatred. Kamille's life is so much more complicated than Shinn's, alot because of his newtype powers. Imagine beeing able to feel the pain of hundreds of thousands of people dying at once. Shinn's pain when Stellar died is nothing compared to that.

And like I said. Instead of turning all his losses into hate, he turned them into his will to prevail. I'd love to see Shinn become a good guy, very much like Kamille became, but I can't see how that is going to happen. Since Kira is the main protagonist (right now, later together with Athrun I guess), I guess he has to be the one to set Shinn straight. Because I can't see any other way for it to happen.

Or, we could have a Zeta ending...

Kira and Shinn in the final battle. Shinn rams his material-beamsword that Destiny uses trough Strike Freedom's torso area, injuring Kira fatally, wich will kill him very soon. Kira blasts Shinn with all his 'dormant' (right now) newtype powers, making Shinn act like a five year old. "Look, a star. Oh, another one!"

EDIT: What the...?

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OKAY................ DUN WORRY KIBA-KUN!! XD!! The Duck ish here!! ^_^!! Me support SHINN ASUKA no matter what!!

....................dun flame me ok...>_____<;;......I like SHINN SAMA LOT MORE than anyone in GUNDAM HAS EVER CREATED cuz his life ish far more tragic than KIRA or Athrun......Yes...they might have lost their friends.....families and all......but SHINN??....he lost almost all the one he really love!! Stellar!! NOoooo!! Why why why??!! and nobody understand his feelings and all...........except for Rey! Athrun always look at SHinn and saying stuff like he knows everything.....but actually he also lack experience in life too....KIRA?....He always acting like....."Hey! We are the good guys and you are the bad guys!! FIRE!!" like that............well...that's just how I see it......>________<;;...........Well...okay I dun give a damn bout what KIRA did or how he act......All I know...........DON'T HURT MY SHINN!! *sniff*..........

I don't know what to say. The first question that came to my mind: "Is this a friend of Kiba-kun or Jikes, that they asked to come to the forums to defend Shinn?".

That post made so little sense my head hurts. With all thoes underlines and dots, my fingers would hurt from all the tapping/holding in the keys on the keyboard.

What I could understand out of the post:

You like Shinn because he has a more tragic life than Kira and Athrun.

Dosen't make any sense at all. You like him because you pity him? :blink

No one understands his feelings.

That's because he dosen't let anyone in on his life, or his problems. He keeps everything to himself. I'm sure Luna could help him out alot if he would talk to her a bit.

You think Kira is bossy and go like: "I'm right, you're wrong, die!".

Are we watching the same anime? Or do I just perceive things in a different way? :huh

Next time. Try to make more sense. Your point about that no one understands his feelings was good, but the other stuff? :S

zeheero1982

06-19-2005, 03:01 PM

3rdStrike

06-19-2005, 04:42 PM

This isn't a thread for you to request any links for previews either.

If you read through GUNDAM SEED DESTINY THREAD, Mith25200 has posted the preview of 36 already...

http://mbs.jp/gundamseed-d/bb/gundamss36_xa.asx

Kiba-kun

06-19-2005, 04:52 PM

Guys! This is Zeta!!!! Stop comparing those past series wth seeds destiny. Anyways, do anyone have a preview for 36 on window media player? I haven't download the episode 35 yet. So if anyone can give me a link to preview episode 36 that would make my day, thanks.

As 3rdStrike said, wrong thread. And if you knew ANYTHING about Gundam, you'd know perfectly well why we compare them. Deary me.

bakaducky is my friend ^_^; I showed her the thread, so she could see my sig, and she chose to come here. Shinn's fans tend to be fanatical; I tone myself down as best as I can for this forum, but it's hard and lots still comes through! Don't hate us too much! XD

Anyway, there's LOADS to comment on here, and I will do so soon when I have more time - right now, I gotta sleep.

Inquisitor

06-19-2005, 05:29 PM

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OKAY................ DUN WORRY KIBA-KUN!! XD!! The Duck ish here!! ^_^!! Me support SHINN ASUKA no matter what!!

....................dun flame me ok...>_____<;;......I like SHINN SAMA LOT MORE than anyone in GUNDAM HAS EVER CREATED cuz his life ish far more tragic than KIRA or Athrun......Yes...they might have lost their friends.....families and all......but SHINN??....he lost almost all the one he really love!! Stellar!! NOoooo!! Why why why??!! and nobody understand his feelings and all...........except for Rey! Athrun always look at SHinn and saying stuff like he knows everything.....but actually he also lack experience in life too....KIRA?....He always acting like....."Hey! We are the good guys and you are the bad guys!! FIRE!!" like that............well...that's just how I see it......>________<;;...........Well...okay I dun give a damn bout what KIRA did or how he act......All I know...........DON'T HURT MY SHINN!! *sniff*..........

You know, it would be nice if you articulated your statements. That way it would be easier, you know, to have a discussion.

Anyway, since 34 is out, we might as well talk about it (as many have already started doing). I was a little unnerved by Shinn's reaction to seeing those new Gundams. That kid's gettin a little creepy if you ask me.

Also, I was displeased by Shinn's attitude following his victory (*ack* so painful to say), mainly because he was utterly insensitive towards Athrun's sorrow over losing Kira (perceived loss would be better to say).

davidsiaw

06-19-2005, 05:43 PM

Shinn thought he did Athrun a favour. Unlike us, he did not know about how Kira and Athrun participated in the last war, he did not know how close they were and that Kira was only thinking for the interest of both sides. Kira indeed only tried to harm Athrun and the Minerva from his view. Not because he was inherently bad or whiny, its because we were shown what was going on on both sides and Shinn only saw Kira breaking everyone's robots, and almost killing Athrun. Athrun too, has met with them and knows roughly what they are up to. But from where Shinn stands, he's confused and angry about why Athrun scolded him and punching him in the face for doing his job. That is why he detests him.

And every teenager would like a new car.

dotWizard

06-19-2005, 05:53 PM

Shinn does know. When he's studying up on Freedom, Athrun gets in his face about it. Athrun tells him Kira isn't the enemy.

Shinn sits back down. Rey takes over the conversation. Rey states that even though Athrun and Kira were former comrades, there could be a time when Kira is perceived as a threat.

Rey and Athrun were right next to Shinn. It's impossible for Shinn not to know that Athrun and Kira are friends.

Shinn is insensitive at this point. He might not have understood the entire picture, but he got enough of a glimpse not to brag about it and laugh happily.

Athrun walks away in 35. He clearly doesn't want to be a part of the celebration. Shinn stops him and brags about killing Kira. If you don't think Shinn's being insensitive here, I can't help you. :amuse

Inquisitor

06-19-2005, 06:08 PM

sayam

06-19-2005, 08:11 PM

omg i can't belive I actually sat here and read all the posts in this thread, been sitting here for about 3 hours now.

I'm not a Shinn fan, as a matter of fact I don't even like shinn but I still have hope for him to become a better man, by better man I mean a less self-concentrated arrogant brat.
seeing him Laugh After he thought he killed Kira, and brag about it infront of Atrhun makes him IMO very selfish in a way that when he has done something he expect that everybody think that's a good thing.
and even the smile he had when seeing the new gundams, it was like a smile of a 6 year old kid on christmas. He was probobly thinkin "Ah with this I can bring more of the destruction and mayhem"

But I hope to see him evolve cuse his character got potential.

and with the end of this post I end it with a great scene from the latest ep

http://img83.echo.cx/img83/245/athrunspunch1df.gif

found this one in the fav scene thread, think it's made by 3rdstrike

Son_Pan

06-19-2005, 08:57 PM

EDIT: What the...?

I don't know what to say. The first question that came to my mind: "Is this a friend of Kiba-kun or Jikes, that they asked to come to the forums to defend Shinn?".

That post made so little sense my head hurts. With all thoes underlines and dots, my fingers would hurt from all the tapping/holding in the keys on the keyboard.

LOLZ, thats what i though. most likely its probable. come on, she/he has only made one post. and has posted in this thread only. also, the attitude is somewhat similar to the other shinn fans around here. if you get what i mean, TOO fannish. calm down a bit.

ow, geeze, that post did hurt my head, so confusing, its like "PIZZA.....EAT.....ME.....TODAY.....YOU?"

me_is_david

06-19-2005, 10:37 PM

haha this is gon be a random post but damn
I see that gif everywhere...its getting annoying lol

and considering there are only like 5 of us Shinn fans, this debate still goes on.
Pretty funny if you ask me, however I cannot give great explanations as the others can.

now on topic..I don't think Athrun knows how much his hatred for Freedom is.
Seriously no one saw him with Stellar...ever. No one saw him say all those things, no one knew, he never told anyone. When we next see him again he is just analyzing Freedom. He never talks about Stellar so no one knows. I don't even think Rey knows and he seems like the only one Shinn gets along with. Although I think Rey realized how much Shinn cared for Stellar, but don't think he knew she's dead. Hell, none of them know she's dead.
I just think they'd understand a little bit more if they realized Stellar is dead.
All they saw was Shinn flying off again in Impulse.

IMO, Athrun thinks Shinn killed Kira because he thinks he is an enemy and enemies must be taken out. They kind of attitude and words Shinn gave to Athrun would lead me to believe that also. But it seems there is a deeper reason that Shinn has a desire to destroy Freedom and I think he doesn't want to let out any emotion. He wants to keep it to himself and himself only.
The laugh..means he has completely snapped and gone over the edge.
I think thats what it means, sure confronting Athrun about it while he was leaving wasn't right. But it seems like both Athrun and Shinn are not aware of eachothers deeper reasons. IMO, Freedom/Orb seems like the bringer of confusion and frustration to Shinn. He hates them. Simply put it, but not for a simple reason, although its not a completely right reason. Consdiering his mentallity it is the right reason.

Seriously...if someone accidentally killed Cagalli, Athrun would want to take revenge on that person
If someone killed Lacus, Kira would want to take revenge/hate whoever did it.
So why is it wrong or any different for Shinn to hate what killed/cause the death his loved one?
Sure Athrun and Kira might not laugh like he did, but thats cuz thats Shinn's character.
They're all human they have rage, just Shinn has alot more of it.
Overall I don't think its wrong that Shinn attempted to kill Kira.
Joyous over it isn't wrong either. The only wrong thing he did in my view was get in Athrun's face about it.
That was stupid. I'll admit that.

Son_Pan

06-19-2005, 11:30 PM

well, im not saying i hate ALL shinn fans. if thats what you think im thinking, but im not thinking what you think im thinking. LOL

but yeah, i think you're cool david. so i dont have anything against you.

but ahhaha, thats IT. im not going to disrupt these people who post here. lol.

go on ahead peoples.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 12:02 AM

now on topic..I don't think Athrun knows how much his hatred for Freedom is.
Seriously no one saw him with Stellar...ever. No one saw him say all those things, no one knew, he never told anyone. When we next see him again he is just analyzing Freedom. He never talks about Stellar so no one knows. I don't even think Rey knows and he seems like the only one Shinn gets along with. Although I think Rey realized how much Shinn cared for Stellar, but don't think he knew she's dead. Hell, none of them know she's dead.
I just think they'd understand a little bit more if they realized Stellar is dead.
All they saw was Shinn flying off again in Impulse.

Sure, they'd understand a little bit more, but it wouldn't change Athrun's punch. We know Shinn lost his family. We know Shinn lost Stellar. He never talks about it. This is true. So I understand how you like Shinn, but it doesn't mean he can get away with crap like scoffing whenever he sees Athrun, howing no respect to anyone (which in Japan is a bigger no-no than it is in America), and doing whatever he feels like, disregarding what others think and believe, and then rubbing their faces in it.

He does deserve pity and compassion, but he doesn't let those secrets out. He's strong in that respect, but he's also stupid in that respect. The way he expects others to understand him is the way things would be if he told people. However, he expects others to get out of his way and have compassion for him and his feelings without giving them the benefit of the information needed for people to react that way (take a minute, because even I didn't understand that sentence when first proofing it). He acts childish. Why? He expects people to know his pain and suffering. Shinn always belittles and shouts at Cagalli, and when people look at him with a, "Shinn..." or a "?" he stalks off. First of all, that's rude. Second, no one is even given a chance to offer him a rebuttal. He opens his mouth, but he shuts his mind. That's Shinn in a nutshell. Quick to jump to conclusions, quick to point fingers of blame, he acts upon these dilusions of martyrdom. "Oh. I'm killing this evil Kira to avenge my love for Stellar." "I'm such an altruistic hero." Please... I said it before, and I'll say it again. He believes what he wants to believe. He blames who he wants to blame, and he expects the world to concur with his decision and respect him for his rash actions. He disregards what Athrun wants. He disregards what Captain Talia may want, going on his own agenda.

"Social disobedience" is a phrase made famous by Thoreau's Walden. It says if you find something to be unjust, you may go against it. However, expect the repercussions. Shinn did what he thought was right, regardless of what the military wanted. Awesome. He saved Stellar's life (well...sort of...). However, when he got back, he got jailed. All of a sudden, he questions if what he did was right to Rey. Was Shinn's resolve that strong? Probably not. Punished for the first time, he starts questioning his behavior. When Dullindal (most likely) lets him out, he's back to the arrogant, self-important brat act again. Did Shinn learn anything? No. Well, he learned that he could do whatever he wanted, regardless of how it affected the people around him. I guess that's something... Does that make him more likable? Of course not.

This brings me to an important point of Athrun's punch. I believe it was needed for Shinn to grow. Shinn is always doing things, with no regard to authority. He believes he's above everyone, because he's experienced more. Is this an arrogant stance? Yes. Everyone's been through a lot that they don't talk about. However, he believes he's special because of his circumstances. Is this the point-of-view of a dignified martyr of his cause? No. Shinn is never punished, so like a little kid, he does something bad, sees that he isn't punished, and then does something worse. He does worse and worse things until he's finally spanked. Athrun is the first to have spanked Shinn. Will Shinn grow to be a better person? Possibly. However, Rey and Dullindal are manipulating him by allowing him to think that he's in the right. So, they'll tell him that Athrun was out of line, and Shinn will have no regard for people while following orders slipped in by Rey and Dullindal. I do have hope for him, however, if Athrun and Kira are able to get to him.

IMO, Athrun thinks Shinn killed Kira because he thinks he is an enemy and enemies must be taken out. They kind of attitude and words Shinn gave to Athrun would lead me to believe that also. But it seems there is a deeper reason that Shinn has a desire to destroy Freedom and I think he doesn't want to let out any emotion. He wants to keep it to himself and himself only.
The laugh..means he has completely snapped and gone over the edge.
I think thats what it means, sure confronting Athrun about it while he was leaving wasn't right. But it seems like both Athrun and Shinn are not aware of eachothers deeper reasons. IMO, Freedom/Orb seems like the bringer of confusion and frustration to Shinn. He hates them. Simply put it, but not for a simple reason, although its not a completely right reason. Consdiering his mentallity it is the right reason.

I agree with what you're saying. He does hate Kira and Archangel. However, he doesn't listen to anyone else. Shinn just sees what he wants to see and uses that to fuel his hatred. He's incapable of making informed decisions, because he holds himself above everyone else. Ergo, their voices are unimportant in his decisions.

He keeps his emotions to himself, so he should expect to be punched when he brags about killing Kira. This is an example of him wanting people to act as if he's a pity-case, without them knowing that he's a pity-case. You can either tell them that you're a pity-case, and they'll be more compassionate towards you, or you can keep to yourself and expect to be treated as a regular guy and punched in the face when bragging about killing someone's friend.

Considering his mentality? Yes, in his mind, he is right. However...because we know that his mind isn't right, he is wrong. You can't say, well, he thought it was right, so it was right. If the action was wrong to you and me, it's wrong. You can say it was a result of him not being in the right mind, but...it's still wrong. For example, there are three people. Person A, B, and C. If A and B like each other, but one day, A finds out B was killed by C in self-defense, A hates C. That's okay. If A kills C, that's fine too. However, A thinks killing C was right, because C killed B. Does that mean the murder of C was right? No. C killed B out of self-defense. If A killed C, that's murder. Murder is wrong. If A thinks the murder was justified, does it make it right? No... I hope that helps.

Seriously...if someone accidentally killed Cagalli, Athrun would want to take revenge on that person
If someone killed Lacus, Kira would want to take revenge/hate whoever did it.
So why is it wrong or any different for Shinn to hate what killed/cause the death his loved one?
Sure Athrun and Kira might not laugh like he did, but thats cuz thats Shinn's character.
They're all human they have rage, just Shinn has alot more of it.
Overall I don't think its wrong that Shinn attempted to kill Kira.
Joyous over it isn't wrong either. The only wrong thing he did in my view was get in Athrun's face about it.
That was stupid. I'll admit that.

If someone killed Cagalli, Athrun, depending on the reason, would want to take revenge. If someone killed Lacus, Kira probably would not have taken revenge. Why? Kira understands that if Kira kills Lacus' murderer, Lacus will not come back. Kira wants peace and justice.

And for the record, these aren't equal situations. Cagalli never annihilated 3 cities. Lacus never threatened Kira's life or the lives of Minerva, Archangel, and innocent civilians. Stellar did. Shinn should see this. He was there. Because he is incapable of seeing Stellar in this light, I find him to be a flawed character, which is fine. However, don't expect me to think he's right.

Taking joy in murdering someone who only you think is an evil-doer and everyone else thinks otherwise is wrong. Disregarding facts, opinions, and the situation altogether to exact your revenge is wrong. Pointing a finger and pulling the trigger without thinking everything through is wrong. I'm sorry if you don't feel that way.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 12:36 AM

Also, I'm so critical of Shinn, because I do believe he will become a good person. The fact that he has so much wrong with him at first only makes his redemption so much greater.

I'll let you in on a secret. In Gundam Seed, I hated Kira. I told my friend Lam, I hated him. He was a whining crybaby who was unable to let go of his emotions when peoples' lives were on the line. Kira was a very emotional teenager, even for a person thrust into war. However, when Kira returned from ZAFT in the Freedom that Lacus gave him, he redeemed himself. He was able to put his emotions aside and think about others, helping them with his gift.

I dislike Shinn in Gundam Seed Destiny. I won't forever dislike him, but when he's an arrogant, self-important jerk who steps on those around him, I will.

When he gets his act together, he will be as cool as Kira. Athrun, when he gets his act together, will be awesome as well. But for now, Athrun and Shinn are really...unlikable.

Chillin

06-20-2005, 12:41 AM

When he gets his act together, he will be as cool as Kira. Athrun, when he gets his act together, will be awesome as well. But for now, Athrun and Kira are really...unlikable.

:laugh Explain why all three main characters are unlikable .

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 12:43 AM

Hey, shut up. I type 1000+ words, and I mess up one. Give me a break. :notrust

bakaducky

06-20-2005, 12:49 AM

Hmm..............I dunno bout all those stuff been said but.........I AM TOTALLY 100% agreed wif what Rey said to Athrun after Shinn got punched! NO MORE NO LESS!! He's sooo smart to scold Athrun like that!! I mean he's not being arrogant or biased by all the words he spouts....he does said that Shinn got this attitude problem....but for destroying FREEDOM.........it's his duty......okay.....please watch the subbed version if you haven't cuz everything can be explained there by Rey! ^_^!! hmm....and Athrun.....that time......he just won't listen to reason....Well.....yess!! SHINN GOT NEW TOY!! He loves it!! If I was him....being as a soldier.....plus.....a child whose heart still unstable and all....I would definitly be happy to receive such thing from the one I respect!! Like Shinn, he respect Dullindel soo much! That's why he's happy for having a new suit! ^_^!! ..............I do hope SHINN dies in the end cuz he got nobody anymore....poor shinn...o well........that's how sad heroes always end up in the end! ............. *well.....actually I was imagining what if I'm Shinn...what would I do if I have this mentality problem....I mean trauma....* O yeah!! He didn't tell everyone bout his problem and thinking that he's the tragic one here cuz, he knows that nobody understads him, and its none of their business to know. Aii....It's like only his fans understands his situations greatly! For opinion....I'm with REY!! He got the greatest point of view!! Ahhaa...of course all those words I said up there was my opinion....^_^;

p/s: Honestly....I hate KIRA,LACUS,ATHRUN AND CAGALLI after watching the 4th episode and on.......:P......*look at my title...*....heee............aiii

Chillin

06-20-2005, 12:50 AM

Hey hey no need to take offense. I was just playing.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 12:56 AM

Most of what I say is sarcastic. Sorry. I was joking about the "shut up." :amuse

Jikes

06-20-2005, 01:17 AM

I'll quote myself from the GSD 2.0 thread!

I'm not trying to flame you or anything, but thats a very narrow minded view, your expecting Shinn to see the situation as we do by seeing everyside of the story, the fact is Shinn is in a war, he doesn't know what AA is trying to achieve, he doesn't know how close Kira is to Athrun, He doesn't know that Kira doesn't want to kill anyone, all Shinn knows is that Freedom is an enemy, he killed Stellar, trashed Athrun's gundam, provoked Hiene's death, and brought confusion to thier battles, Shinn had every right to be glad at the defeat of Freedom. i'm not denying Athrun's view or his hit on Shinn, but Rey and Shinn's views on the current situation are 100% right.

most people are judging Shinn as if he knows whats going on in the world, you anti-shinn fanboys/girls (who are much more fanatical!) think for some reason that Shinn is watching GSD along with you getting the exactly same information you are, when it comes down to it, Shinn doesn't know jack shit, and why should he? its not as if h is in contact with the AA and understands the lies and deception, i mean if the whole world is fooled by Dullindal why shouldn't Shinn be fooled aswell. Shinn is acting by what he knows and experieces to assume otherwise is just idiodic and narrowminded, we can say we wouldn't have done what shinn did but how can we? we have seen every side and presented the whole picture, of course we would say that we would not be like Shinn, we like to think we would do the right thing, the fact is if you or me where in Shinn's exact position we would be attempting to take down freedom aswell.(and dont say you wouldn't cuz you would)

me_is_david

06-20-2005, 01:52 AM

I'm not gon quote cuz its gon make it an ultra long post and yeah

off-topic: yay I'm not hated/disliked :whoo :whoo

on topic: Yeah, he does just do whatever he wants. He isn't suposed to, but frankly I really dont think he gives a shit lol. His reasons for joining ZAFT are sorta unknown. Basically he had no where to go and nothing to do, so you can say he was sorta forced to join and when someone is doing something they don't like to do they don't care about it. I believe he isn't a devote ZAFT soldier like Athrun and co. were back in SEED. He's just there, which is why I think he disobeys like that. As for disrespecting Athrun, I would think he would, he was said to be all great so he was like woo... but Shinn's done more than Athrun so he's like wtf.

But the character I don't understand is Athrun, wtf is he doing lol. But thats a whole different topic. He is just as confused as he was in SEED, I mean come on did Kira have to die again for him to realize where he should be? Lol.
In SEED, Kira "died" and he goes to AA, in Destiny, Kira "died" and from what previews see he goes to them again.
He seems the most confused out of every character in the series X_X

I do admit that Shinn shouldn't have gloated in front of Athrun, knowing that Athrun knew the pilot. Especially when he was walkinga way from him, Shinn was really just asking for that punch.

I'm gon stop now cuz I realize I type a shitload. If only I could do essay's on this, papers would be so much easier to write. :laugh :laugh

Kiba-kun

06-20-2005, 04:58 AM

Rey is my new best friend. ^_^

It's interesting how they've given Shinn and Kira some parallels here. The scene when Shinn returned from destroying Freedom was very, very similar to the scene where Kira returns from destroying Blitz. IMO, that was were Kira began to change to what he is now. There's also the scene where Kira recieves Freedom; he wasn't angry about it, but he wasn't exactly over the moon either. He was pleased to have what he needed. Shinn, on recieving Destiny, acts like someone said above - as if he'd been given a new car by a rich uncle.

This is why I think that Shinn will now never change for the better. The scenes mentioned above are where Kira changed forever, and became what he is now. So I believe Shinn is going to stay like this now. We'll see.

And of course, I love that. ^_^

As for the punch-in-face thing, there's not more I can add to that discussion at the moment. It was a fantastic scene though!

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 05:36 AM

I'll quote myself from the GSD 2.0 thread!

most people are judging Shinn as if he knows whats going on in the world, you anti-shinn fanboys/girls (who are much more fanatical!) think for some reason that Shinn is watching GSD along with you getting the exactly same information you are, when it comes down to it, Shinn doesn't know jack shit, and why should he? its not as if h is in contact with the AA and understands the lies and deception, i mean if the whole world is fooled by Dullindal why shouldn't Shinn be fooled aswell. Shinn is acting by what he knows and experieces to assume otherwise is just idiodic and narrowminded, we can say we wouldn't have done what shinn did but how can we? we have seen every side and presented the whole picture, of course we would say that we would not be like Shinn, we like to think we would do the right thing, the fact is if you or me where in Shinn's exact position we would be attempting to take down freedom aswell.(and dont say you wouldn't cuz you would)

i wouldn't take down freedom aswell. cuzzzz man. Shinn doesn't have perfect knowledge like we do, but he does have enough knowledge to be humble. He has enough knowledge to cherish human life, as is expected of a person who has lost so many dear to him. He has enough knowledge not to gloat to Athrun about his latest kill. Am I being "idiodic?" This is a debate. These are opinions. You don't have to belittle people who don't think like you do. That is the true meaning of narrowmindedness.

You think too little of Shinn. He's more intelligent than you put on. And as for me? I wouldn't have put Freedom as my top priority to kill for Stellar. He was involved, but hey...Stellar was firing a giant weapon. Freedom stopped her from destroying everything.

What would I do? I would look at Stellar and how she got to where she is. She's a peace-loving girl in a warmachine. How did she get from a hospital bed to the warmachine? I kidnapped her from the hospital and gave her back to Earth Alliance. How did she get from Earth Alliance hands to Destroy Gundam? NEO. He promised me that she would be returned to a place far away from mobile suits. He broke his promise. Now, she's dead. He's responsible if anyone is.

There. I didn't pull any information Shinn didn't already know. Shinn knew he was the one who gave Stellar back to Earth Alliance. He was the one that made Neo promise to return Stellar to a pure world far away from mobile suits. He knew Neo was the one that broke his promise.

Hey, I'm not saying Shinn is to blame for Stellar's death, because he returned her. I'm saying Freedom was acting in everyone's best interest by shutting Stellar down before she fired her giant destructo-beam. Why do I know that? Because I was right in front of Destroy. I was the one that cried out to Stellar as she was powering up her beam. I couldn't reach her, and before she could fire, Freedom stopped it from firing. Who would I blame? Neo. Earth Alliance. Those bastards who experimented with Stellar and made her fight in the first place.

So give some credit to Shinn. He's a smart person. He's not as clueless as you would like him to be.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 05:44 AM

No. I still have hope for Shinn changing for the better. Athrun still has some influence on Shinn. He'll most likely use it later on when they're fighting in mobile suits.

It might take a while, but he'll change. They put too much emphasis in the form of cutscenes, emotional scenes, and such for him to just end up the way he is now.

They'd be wasting a lot of potential just making him the evil guy. I have a distinct feeling Neo will become good as well. Who will they all fight? We'll probably find out around episode 40-42.

ssouske

06-20-2005, 06:07 AM

i gotta agree to dotwizard bout his post... the way you think about shinn, about him not knowing a lot, is really belittling him... shinn really knows a lot about what is happening arround him... in my opinion, the reason why he is acting like this is because he is refusing to grow up. He simply refuses to move on... Plus, i think that super ace thing got into him... and the end result, shinn not trying to understand what really is happening, and is only acting according to what he thinks is right...
this is what i got from kiba-kun's and your replies to son_pan in the GSD thread about athrun punching shinn... it is something like this... "It is just like saying it is ok for shinn to kill (as athrun probably assumed) kira, because he accidentally/unintentionally (i just want to emphasize that) killed stellar while trying to save shinn and everybody else from getting fried by destroy's cannons... but it is totally wrong for athrun to punch shinn's face for killing (again as athrun probably assumed) kira because he wanted to take revenge and ZAFT ordered them to take out AA and freedom... and it is also ok for shinn to taunt athrun because he feels that he had taken care of athrun's revenge for him" in my opinion, that is totally pointless... athrun was trying to point out that kira does not have the intent on killing someone... then shinn comes along and says "hahaha! i killed him! hey athrun i got my revenge and yours too... isn't it fun?" eventhough he knows that athrun has some kind of special attatchment to the AA crew, especially with kira. athrun tried to hold back but shinn has been iritating him for the past episodes... so it was about time for athrun to explode...

so there those are my opinions...

Mindless

06-20-2005, 07:26 AM

antoine

06-20-2005, 07:28 AM

well said kiba

Jikes

06-20-2005, 08:35 AM

first of all dotWizard stop double posting please, use the edit botton!

and please, ive already blasted people in the GSD thread for putting words into my mouth, but dotWizard and ssouske you guys take the cake, I am not justifing anyones actions on a moral level, i am simply trying to explaine perhaps why they acted like that. I am not saying Shinn didn't desearve to be punched and i am not saying Shinn was wrong in being cocky about defeating Freedom. your views on Shinn are justified, you explained them well, just dont put words into my mouth.

and dotWizard dont be a hypocryte, i use "cuz" BECAUSE "becuase" is an extra 4 characters, dont make fun of me again! its not as if i'm talking leet or anything.

Kiba-kun

06-20-2005, 12:56 PM

OMG! WE AGREE! LOVE YOU! :laugh

Apart from the Rey-best friend part.

YAY!

Gawd, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I WISH I COULD WATCH THIS ALL AT ONCE! I want the answers to all the questions now! This is EASILY the best series running this year.

As for the 'would you take down Freedom?' discussion, I would if I was an ace pilot capable of doing so and I'd had no contact with any former members of the Three Ships Alliance. If I had contact with someone, I'd doubt it, but I'd still do it for the sake of achievement. As an MS pilot, there's no greater achievement than to take down Freedom right now.

Mindless

06-20-2005, 01:31 PM

^

Good point about taking down Freedom.

I'd probably take down Freedom too. But instead of killing the pilot, I'd simply Freedom-it; meaning, cut off all it's limbs and shit and spare the pilot, then stand next to the remains of it and say: "HAHA! WTFPWNED!" :laugh

Of course there is no greater achievement for a mobile suit pilot than to take down the greatest mobile suit of them all: Freedom. But I'd like to defeat him with my own skills. Meaning, just from beeing a great pilot, not because I sat hour after hour studying weaknesses on Freedom.

Gawd, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I WISH I COULD WATCH THIS ALL AT ONCE! I want the answers to all the questions now! This is EASILY the best series running this year.

Indeed. Not too many episodes left of it. Only 15 episodes. Then, you can finally rewatch it all, and finally, you can start to realize what's really good about each character. Because right now, you only get small fragments of each character each week, wich makes everything a bit frustrating, turning into very hot-blooded discussion and minor forum-wars. :)

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 03:20 PM

you anti-shinn fanboys/girls (who are much more fanatical!)

I think I've been fair in explaining both sides. How do you mean?

to assume otherwise is just idiodic and narrowminded

Thanks. Read my above post. It should explain why assuming otherwise is not idiotic and narrowminded.

we like to think we would do the right thing, the fact is if you or me where in Shinn's exact position we would be attempting to take down freedom aswell.(and dont say you wouldn't cuz you would)

That's putting words, opinions, and actions in my mouth.

first of all dotWizard stop double posting please, use the edit botton!

They're both different topic posts. One is a rebuttal to your argument. The next is a response to Kiba-kun. If I meshed them all into one, it'd be very confusing. If the admin have a problem with this, I'll stop, but please don't take it upon yourself to tell me what to do.

and please, ive already blasted people in the GSD thread for putting words into my mouth, but dotWizard and ssouske you guys take the cake

Blast away. If anything, my posts elaborate on what I think on many aspects of Shinn, Kira, and the war. They aren't entirely about you, and they might respond to many arising opinions in the thread.

i am simply trying to explaine perhaps why they acted like that

I'm explaining why Shinn should know better, in contrast to your argument of Shinn doesn't know any better.

your views on Shinn are justified, you explained them well, just dont put words into my mouth.

Well, point them out under the impression that I'm responding to posts coming before and after yours. I'll be happy to explain, argue some more, or take them back. Again, my post could have responded to something you said, Kiba-kun said, or someone else.

and dotWizard dont be a hypocryte, i use "cuz" BECAUSE "becuase" is an extra 4 characters, dont make fun of me again!

How is that being a hypocrite? I'm returning the attitude you gave me to begin with. Alright. I won't make fun of you again. Touchy.

its not as if i'm talking leet or anything.

I just find it shows little respect to the people who want to read your argument for your opinion, because you're slowing them down and making it harder to read your thoughts and feelings in writing. As you're reading a statement, you might not notice it, but if it's abbreviated in some odd way, you stop for a second, put the message of the post aside, and have to disarm the abbreviation. Sometimes it's instant, but that second you put the message of the post aside, it has less of an impression on you. That's why I don't read some posts--some people have already spoken about that in this topic.

Well, since I get the impression double-posting is morally wrong, even when trying to make things more comprehensible, I'll continue. Oh, you must have went...what is she talking about while your mind doubled back to try to make sense of it? Well, that's the plus I like about double-posting. Easily split arguments.

As for the 'would you take down Freedom?' discussion, I would if I was an ace pilot capable of doing so and I'd had no contact with any former members of the Three Ships Alliance. If I had contact with someone, I'd doubt it, but I'd still do it for the sake of achievement. As an MS pilot, there's no greater achievement than to take down Freedom right now.

What you're saying is fine if it were a game. In World of Warcraft, I used to duel my guildmates all the time. I especially dueled people that beat me, even if I were at a disadvantage, because, to be honest, it'd make me a better dueler.

However, Gundam Seed Destiny battles aren't games. Kira is fighting a real war. Shinn is fighting a real war. If I look at Kira and say, "Oh...he's sort of unknown, but since he's strong, I'll defeat him," that's really not right. Kira is in a very expensive mobile suit. I can't just destroy the mobile suit, because I find Kira to be the best and I want to get better. You have to have solid reasoning for disabling a mobile suit. You are to do it, because they're shooting at you, they're the true enemy, etc. You don't just go to the shooting range and start shooting people who you think are good shots, because you want to see if you can shoot better than them.

If you're taking someone's life, I hope you have a good reason. Sure, lives are taken back and forth in war, but when you start thinking that a couple more wouldn't matter, you become a "demented murderer" as I claimed Shinn to be.

And if I wanted to see if I was a better pilot, I'd try Kira's game in disabling him. Having an intent to kill already means I'm worse than Kira, because the entire time, Kira is limited in places to shoot. If you notice, the head and weapon are very small targets. Playing Kira's game means I have to be a sharpshooter.

Having the intent to kill Kira means I have a larger margin of error. If I'm shooting at Kira's weapon and he moves a few feet to the left, I miss. If I shoot at Kira's torso, he has to move a lot farther to dodge. And dueling someone with a handicap while I go all out isn't dueling in it's true sense at all.

Kiba-kun

06-20-2005, 04:11 PM

Double posting is against the rules, but you're new so I wouldn't expect you to know that. It's just to organize the page a bit more and cut down on the people who spam just for post count. That's not what you're doing, of course, but best to stick to the rules. ^_^ And let's try not to get into personal arguments! Perhaps take it to PM's or something if you must.

I agree with what you're saying above. But, Shinn doesn't think like that, and since I'm pretty similar to him in some respects I'd probably be the same in his situation. Not much else to say there :P

No. I still have hope for Shinn changing for the better. Athrun still has some influence on Shinn. He'll most likely use it later on when they're fighting in mobile suits.

It might take a while, but he'll change. They put too much emphasis in the form of cutscenes, emotional scenes, and such for him to just end up the way he is now.

They'd be wasting a lot of potential just making him the evil guy. I have a distinct feeling Neo will become good as well. Who will they all fight? We'll probably find out around episode 40-42.

Neo will become good - we've already seen plenty of signs of this. His attitude to Stellar, his actions towards Shinn when they met, the way he talks to the crew all points towards this.

Shinn is completely different. For the past 16 or so episodes, starting with the fight with the Zamzazar and the EA fleet, he's shown himself to be uncontrollably aggressive, with no hint of remorse whatsoever for the deaths he causes - VERY unlike Kira, who Fukuda seems to want us to compare to Shinn (by giving them a fair few similar scenes).

Think about it like this - say the Zamzazar fight was equivalent to Kira's first nightfight against the BaCues. After that, Kira was messed up; he was ridden with guilt, and sought sexual release. Shinn was just how he usually is, and during the fight he became uncontrolable and decimated a whole fleet, taking thousands of lives.

The biggest one is this current episode. After Kira killed Nicol, he was distraught, and couldn't understand the praise he was getting. Shinn, in a scene almost identical to Kira's return from his fight, pseudo-humbly accepts this praise and is very pleased to recieve it.

Finally, the scene where they both recieve their MS. I've detailed that in the post above.

All this leads me to believe that Shinn is supposed to be Kira's opposite and true rival. I think Destiny was all made to set this up, and was deliberately made from the point of the bad guy. Kira is still the main character, but we have Shinn's point of view too to make an enemy for Kira you understand and truely love/hate.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 05:06 PM

Double posting is against the rules, but you're new so I wouldn't expect you to know that. It's just to organize the page a bit more and cut down on the people who spam just for post count.

I looked in General rules and Narutoforums FAQ for this rule, so that I could read it for myself and decide whether or not I would like to stay at these forums. In my arguments, posting twice does help "organize the page a bit more." When I do post twice, the posts themselves are about two different things and with different moods and different people in mind. If I find that a post would do better split in two, I do it so that everyone can read it more easily.

Anyway, after visiting these pages:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=19866
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=202
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=28812
edit: http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=34472

I have come to the conclusion that no rule exists. The rules do state, however, that spam is not to be tolerated. I agree with that rule, as you seem to do as well. This prevents people from upping their post count and gives the admin the rights to delete nonsensical posts. It cuts down on what the double-posting rule would have accomplished without hindering on organization and post clarity.

If you find the rule somewhere else, show me the link, and I'll move on to another forum. No big. Back to the topic at hand.

I agree with what you're saying above. But, Shinn doesn't think like that, and since I'm pretty similar to him in some respects I'd probably be the same in his situation. Not much else to say there

I know Shinn doesn't think like that. I wish he did. It'd make him a more realistic character, instead of an excessive teen angst character. Like I said, I will probably like Shinn in the future, but for now, he doesn't use the intelligence I KNOW he has. He's smart not to accept Cagalli's ideals at face value. He questions Orb and their ideals to death, because he lost people due to their ideals. Shinn questions Athrun all the time. He questions the ZAFT military when dealing with Stellar, but his intelligence stops there. He doesn't question the things that require the most questioning.

In some aspects of his character, I find him very cool. However, when the people upstairs all of a sudden dumb him down to fit their plot, I'm not going to just accept that as Shinn's flaws, because his current flaws contradict his strengths in previous episodes. I saw potential in Shinn, and when his potential is curbed to suit the plot, it's saddening. If you like Shinn, you should see this as well.

Shinn is completely different. For the past 16 or so episodes, starting with the fight with the Zamzazar and the EA fleet, he's shown himself to be uncontrollably aggressive, with no hint of remorse whatsoever for the deaths he causes - VERY unlike Kira, who Fukuda seems to want us to compare to Shinn (by giving them a fair few similar scenes).

Think about it like this - say the Zamzazar fight was equivalent to Kira's first nightfight against the BaCues. After that, Kira was messed up; he was ridden with guilt, and sought sexual release. Shinn was just how he usually is, and during the fight he became uncontrolable and decimated a whole fleet, taking thousands of lives.

The biggest one is this current episode. After Kira killed Nicol, he was distraught, and couldn't understand the praise he was getting. Shinn, in a scene almost identical to Kira's return from his fight, pseudo-humbly accepts this praise and is very pleased to recieve it.

As I said, I thought Kira was a whining crybaby, so I pretty much glossed over episodes 1-30, 30 being which I think he flies down to Earth and helps Archangel in Freedom for the first time, I think.

Since I don't remember much of the beginning of Seed, I can't say much.

Finally, the scene where they both recieve their MS. I've detailed that in the post above.

All this leads me to believe that Shinn is supposed to be Kira's opposite and true rival. I think Destiny was all made to set this up, and was deliberately made from the point of the bad guy. Kira is still the main character, but we have Shinn's point of view too to make an enemy for Kira you understand and truely love/hate.

If Shinn is Kira's rival, the show will have taken a turn for the worst. Shinn has primitive beliefs on war and death, not because he hasn't experienced much. Shinn's experiences have taken a toll and that makes him shut his mind to everyone else, as I've said before. Because he shuts his mind, no one is able to challenge his views on war. If you never challenge your beliefs and question them, you'll never be truly strong.

Kira's beliefs are strong, because he questioned them. Athrun questioned them. Dearka and Isaac questioned them. Lacus helped with her views and contradictions. Kira isn't strong because he's a Coordinator. A Coordinator gives him the skill to pilot, true. However, his beliefs are what drive him and make him a good character, and Kira's beliefs are a result of many episodes and many peoples' influence. Shinn only really listens to Rey and Dullindal who don't really care about him, only that he does their bidding.

So, I see Shinn as good of a pilot as Kira is, if he improves with Destiny, but intellectually speaking, he isn't much of a rival for Kira.

I believe Rey and Shinn definitely have a rivalry going, which I'm sure we'll see develop as the show continues. Athrun might rival Dullindal. I don't know who Kira might rival.

Shinn might go up against Kira at first, but they don't have a fatal rivalry going--a rivalry that will only end in one of their deaths. Shinn's beliefs aren't strong enough for that. That's what I think.

Laughing@you

06-20-2005, 05:10 PM

Shinn vs Kira.......I think Kira lost cuz he was studied. And kira was clearly shown distracted by the fact that the Archangel was being attacked. Furthermore kira was handicapped.....when somebody is trying to kill you and you don't thats clearly a disadvantage. Kira never went for the kill. Now if we were talking about kira before he took the Himura kenshin vote it would have being a total different story.

I beleive Shinn is a good pilot but not as strong as Athrun. Now Athrun is a strong pilot when he uses the Seed mode. Shinn is a lost boy just like kira and Athrun were on the previous series. Shinn is just a pawn used by dullindal. Dullindal is cunning character that knows what shinn went thru and as we've seing during this series he knows what buttons to push in order to controll him. Right now shinn is like the Jet li's movie Unleashed, dullindal removes the collar and says kill him. Shinn is not even thinking the why or the how...he just do it.

staradderdragoon

06-20-2005, 07:18 PM

i still dont get what everyone's arguing about. can someone give me the debate topic?

Mindless

06-20-2005, 07:25 PM

Right now I believe the topic is: "Why Athrun smacked Shinn's face."

I might be wrong though.

staradderdragoon

06-20-2005, 07:29 PM

ok. well, i havent seen episode 34 or 35, which is where im assuming this even occurs
but here i go. ok, i think athrun smacks shinn in the face because shinn is being a huge ass and a selfish bastard.....
and how many times has it been said? kira lost because the stupid noob doesnt have the heart to kill!!!! he's good at heart while shinn is some crazy evil maniac...and kira has several disadantages because he has data on him and the core fighter system of impulse...there....i dont think we need to repeat that anymore....lol...done

EDIT: what is the thing with rey? i just saw kiba-kun mention something about rey being his new best friend.. why?

Crimson

06-20-2005, 08:44 PM

I still dont understand why anyones even trying to counter dotwizards dissertation on Shinn's character. Honestly, after reading through every post since that one, everything everyone has mentioned has already been countered save for personal opinions. And I also believe Shinn still has a chance of redeeming himself. Theres far too many plot twists coming up with several characters he trusts for his misguided allegiance to Dullindal not too waiver (see the destiny spoiler thread and youll c what I mean).

The next few episodes I believe will set up the end of the series. So I think theyll be plenty of fuel for this argument after that. Why continue on the same evidence in circles now? :amuse

Rakumaru

06-20-2005, 09:06 PM

I agree Crimson ^^. I think Shinn and Kira are both awesome (Discussion killer)
Anyways I have not seen episode 35 yet (bittorrent still at work). Will be interesting to see how everyone reacts to shinn.

zeheero1982

06-20-2005, 09:24 PM

I think Shinn will die at the end of Destiny

ssouske

06-20-2005, 09:56 PM

I think Shinn will die at the end of Destiny
i think this should be posted in the who will die in gsd thread... :)

dotwiz... as expected, excelent posts from you... and to jikes, cool down man... you're a little bit too offensive... and i have noticed that you seem to blast everyone who have different opinions to you... and I was not trying to put words in your mouth... I just said my opinions and how i interpreted yours and some of kiba-kun's previous posts... it is mine not yours... :oh

ok back to the current topic... i kinda agree with both of dotwiz and kiba-kun... i believe and hope that shinn will become good in the end but i can also see shinn going to the darkside... right now there are no definite markers nor signs pointing to shinn's future... maybe we will get some of that in the next op... as of now i see shinn continuing his usual attitude but he may change when he sees athrun deflecting back to AA... shinn might find himself in a dilema after that since athrun does have some infuence on shinn... plus we might see more of athrun beating shinn's butt in a Gouf (if this is true, i think they just give athrun a regular ZAFT MS than a gundam... he seems to do more great things inside mass produced units :laugh )

Jikes

06-20-2005, 10:45 PM

okay i'll try and reply as level headed as possible.

to dot wizard:

I was calling you a hypocrite as you where making fun of my use of the word "cuz" yet a page earlier you told someone to lay off as they made fun of you spelling some words weirdly, nothing else. I was also not commenting on Shinn's intelligence and his ability to understand the situation his in (this is what you and ssouske, where saying I said), i was trying to say that as a soldier on board Minerva he cannot contact AA and find out why they are fighting or why Freedom is fighting, unless ofcourse Athrun tells him which he didn't until it was too late. I'm not belittling him i am simply saying the information he is recieving from his superiors and his circumstances do not illustrate the true nature of this war, most of the stuff he does recieve is Dullindal's propaganda, that is all I was saying.

to Crimson:

we continue this debate as either side has yet to understand eachother, ofcourse you agree with dotWizard, you probally started on his side to begin with.

to Staradderdragoon:

I'm envious of your straight to the point arguement, I wish I could do that,lol. or maybe it just because i agree entirely with your statement of why kira lost to Shin?

NOTE: dotwizard perhaps if you set out you post like this you can eliminate the need to double post, i'm not saying you spam because you dont you keep your posts very detailed and relevent but i'm pretty sure double posting is frowned upon especially if the posts are rather small and spamish, I would really stop double posting as most people dont like it.

dotWizard

06-20-2005, 10:52 PM

Athrun does something? Impossible.

It's nice to see the "legendary" Athrun Zara do something other than look with a surprised face, letting out the mouse-like sounds, "Er....gah....kih....err..."

Athrun was so cool during Gundam Seed. It's sad to see he's worse than the Orb Murasame pilots.

Murasame pilots did in 10-15 minutes what Athrun has been trying to do the entire series: shoot down Sting.

I know that's harsh, but it's funnily true.

Sting was distracted during the Murasame fight and outnumbered, but seriously, Athrun... In Gundam Seed, we were led to believe that he's at Kira's level or at least only a little bit worse, since Kira is the "saiko coordinator."

When Dullindal says something along the lines of, you two have done quite a bit. I was thinking...what the hell did Athrun do?

Ah well, it sounds like Athrun's mind is finally snapping together all the puzzle pieces, and he won't be forced to look with an angry "I can't say anything intelligent, so I'll just stand here and 'grrr'" look.

3rdStrike

06-20-2005, 11:07 PM

...

and when has this thread become a Athrun vs. Shinn thread??

staradderdragoon

06-21-2005, 03:03 AM

okay i'll try and reply as level headed as possible.

to dot wizard:

....I was also not commenting on Shinn's intelligence and his ability to understand the situation his in (this is what you and ssouske, where saying I said), i was trying to say that as a soldier on board Minerva he cannot contact AA and find out why they are fighting or why Freedom is fighting, unless ofcourse Athrun tells him which he didn't until it was too late. I'm not belittling him i am simply saying the information he is recieving from his superiors and his circumstances do not illustrate the true nature of this war, most of the stuff he does recieve is Dullindal's propaganda, that is all I was saying.....
to Staradderdragoon:

I'm envious of your straight to the point arguement, I wish I could do that,lol. or maybe it just because i agree entirely with your statement of why kira lost to Shin?

haha. thanks jikes...the thing about you saying shinn cant contact AA or Freedom. i was wondering about that. remember in the last episode of SEED? how was kreuze able to talk to kira? i thought he was able to. so i dont see why shinn cant contact freedom. but then, shinn just has to show off his ownage skillz to the whole world...lol

and the answer to the above post:never...lol

Jikes

06-21-2005, 03:13 AM

haha. thanks jikes...the thing about you saying shinn cant contact AA or Freedom. i was wondering about that. remember in the last episode of SEED? how was kreuze able to talk to kira? i thought he was able to. so i dont see why shinn cant contact freedom. but then, shinn just has to show off his ownage skillz to the whole world...lol

and the answer to the above post:never...lol

lol, just watched that episode like 15 min ago, the pilots must be able to open up comm-link between the gundams otherwise most of the Gundam series doesn't make any sense. I imagine Shinn didn't even want to talk to Kira while fighting him, he was too fueled by anger and thursty for vengence for that! plus he isn't as pompous as Kreuze was.

staradderdragoon

06-21-2005, 03:18 AM

my point exactly. for some reason now, i cant find anything to bash shinn on. even though im a kira fan, i just cant beleive he was so stupid as not to have that killing intent he had when he fought athrun. that was probably his peak....stupid noob...i have to admit....even though shinn has seemed really lame after the fight, he still owns...
ok. after that rambling: anybody have something else to debate pertaining to this thread?

Kiba-kun

06-21-2005, 04:55 AM

I have come to the conclusion that no rule exists. The rules do state, however, that spam is not to be tolerated. I agree with that rule, as you seem to do as well. This prevents people from upping their post count and gives the admin the rights to delete nonsensical posts. It cuts down on what the double-posting rule would have accomplished without hindering on organization and post clarity.

Basically, it's frowned upon. Ask the mods for their opinion, they'll probably tell you the same ^_^

Not much to say about most of your other points - they're your opinions, and there's not much I can do to refute them, except: I believe Rey and Shinn definitely have a rivalry going, which I'm sure we'll see develop as the show continues.
This is not going to happen - Rey is much more like a big brother figure. I can't see where you derived this viewpoint from, care to give examples?

staradderdragoon, I'd like to suggest that you watch the episode before you comment on things. Then you won't have to ask silly questions. ^_^

Couldn't agree more about Athrun, dotWizard. I hope he improves. Silly craptastic pilot.

dotWizard

06-21-2005, 08:01 AM

to dot wizard:

I was calling you a hypocrite as you where making fun of my use of the word "cuz" yet a page earlier you told someone to lay off as they made fun of you spelling some words weirdly, nothing else.

A few posts later, he apologizes, then I apologize, since I did not make it clear that I was being sarcastic. I don't care if people make fun of my spelling or whatever. Go ahead. I'll correct it. The more proofreaders, the better. Did I push the global thermal nuclear button by using the word, "cuz?" :sad

I was also not commenting on Shinn's intelligence and his ability to understand the situation his in (this is what you and ssouske, where saying I said), i was trying to say that as a soldier on board Minerva he cannot contact AA and find out why they are fighting or why Freedom is fighting, unless ofcourse Athrun tells him which he didn't until it was too late. I'm not belittling him i am simply saying the information he is recieving from his superiors and his circumstances do not illustrate the true nature of this war, most of the stuff he does recieve is Dullindal's propaganda, that is all I was saying.

I understood that when I was making my posts. The point of mine was that Shinn didn't have perfect information, but he had enough. If you don't know what I mean by enough, I posted about it in the previous one. And honestly, I was asking the questions about Shinn's intelligence to make you admit that Shinn is truly smart. I think he is. From what I can read of your rebuttal, you think so too.

Thus far, I don't think Shinn's lust for Freedom's death is propaganda. We don't truly see propaganda until Dullindal appears to the world. Sure, Rey is nudging him, but the reasons Shinn has against Freedom seem to have been created of his own mind.

Again, I didn't say Shinn had perfect information. I just said he had enough. We all make decisions without perfect information, and we do well enough.

to Crimson:

we continue this debate as either side has yet to understand eachother, ofcourse you agree with dotWizard, you probally started on his side to begin with.

Now, now. I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree with you. Yes, Crimson is my long-time buddy who always agrees with me no matter what I post, regardless of my very eloquently stated arguments with detailed reasons using a good amount of logic. You found us out.

Really though, that's judging without perfect information. I can somewhat see how Shinn would be a favorite. :amuse

NOTE: dotwizard perhaps if you set out you post like this you can eliminate the need to double post, i'm not saying you spam because you dont you keep your posts very detailed and relevent but i'm pretty sure double posting is frowned upon especially if the posts are rather small and spamish, I would really stop double posting as most people dont like it.

So everyone went from, "it's a rule, dammit. Quit double-posting!!!" to, "it's frowned upon. Please stop." Mindless hasn't really said anything about my ONE double-post. I've made it a point to stop, because everyone finds it so very offensive. :wink

I find this a lot like Peter in Office Space.

Dom Portwood: Hello, Peter. What's happening? We need to talk about your TPS reports.
Peter Gibbons: Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it.
Dom Portwood: Yeah. Uh, did you get that memo?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah. I got the memo. And I understand the policy. The problem is, I just forgot this one time. And I've already taken care of it so it's not even a problem anymore.
Dom Portwood: Yeah. It's just that we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports *before* they go out now. So if you could just remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!

Except, it isn't a rule, you guys aren't my bosses, and the admin haven't said anything about the one time I did it. So, if I badgered you guys about something you did that isn't technically wrong and against the rules, but I disliked it, in a past life? I apologize.

Hey, if you're all worried about spam, I'm not spamming. If you're worried about my post count shooting up to 2000 tomorrow, go get an admin to set my post count to zero. I don't really care... :wink

And Jikes, your method of dealing with organization is really good, but I feel it's very informal and impersonal and less effective.

Was that rant out of line? I'm sorry. :sad

and when has this thread become a Athrun vs. Shinn thread??

It hasn't, but someone mentioned Athrun, so I talked about him for a bit as it involved Athrun's actions concerning Kira and Shinn.

I imagine Shinn didn't even want to talk to Kira while fighting him, he was too fueled by anger and thursty for vengence for that! plus he isn't as pompous as Kreuze was.

I just had to quote this, because it supports way too many of my arguments of Shinn being closeminded. It doesn't stop at Kira. He's too fueled by angst and arrogance to listen to Athrun, Cagalli, Talia, his deceased sister's wishes that most likely would have been to tell him to stop killing people in her name, considering she was a peaceloving girl from the peaceloving country of Orb...

I don't think Kreuze opened a channel to Kira, because he was pompous. Kreuze probably wanted to challenge Kira's resolve and beliefs. It's a two-way radio. Kreuze may challenge Kira's. Kira may challenge Kreuze's. It's a fair duel of intellect.

Kira is able to open a channel to Shinn in the previous battle with Destroy. Remember? "What are you trying to do?! Be a sitting duck?!" A warning from Kira to Shinn. So, Kira probably could have opened it again, but Shinn and Minerva and ZAFT were clearly out to destroy him and Archangel, so what would be the point?

Shinn probably could have, but he is too blinded by convoluted hatred. He might have been subconsciously scared of what Kira might say that would relieve Shinn of his anger, making him frustrated that Stellar died and Freedom can't be blamed. There are a lot of reasons that might have stopped Shinn from opening a channel. It only paints a more depressing picture of Shinn. He silences Kira before truth could be heard, seen, felt, or understood.

Basically, it's frowned upon. Ask the mods for their opinion, they'll probably tell you the same ^_^

Yes, I got the memo when you said it was against the rules. I got Jikes' memo. I got this one too. We're all 16+ years old. I'd like to think we're adults. Can we not handle the mind-bogglingness of organizing posts through posting twice, so long as it isn't spam or a shameless reason to up post count?

"Are we so vain?!!" - Homer Simpson

This is not going to happen - Rey is much more like a big brother figure. I can't see where you derived this viewpoint from, care to give examples?

I didn't derive that. I believe it will happen. Rey, now, is a big brother figure. In the episodes to come, Shinn may find Rey's deception to be the most backstabbing of all. Rey is the person that has always been Shinn's friend and accomplice in good and bad, and when Shinn finds out that Rey was using him, you'd better believe a rivalry will start. Rey's beliefs are a weaker version of Dullindal's. Shinn's beliefs may turn out to be a weaker version of Kira's/Athrun's. That is what I think will happen, and hey, fatal rivalry between Shinn and Rey. I didn't make too many jumps. It's quite possible.

---

Oh, and if you guys seriously aren't mature enough to leave well enough alone with my way of organizing posts by posting twice, even though you know my posts are filled with content, not spam, I'll leave. I don't want to be the crazy one who does rebellious things like...post twice and have you all freak out. :amazed

I did find a rule about respect though. I'd say not forcing me to conform to your personal ways of posting would be a good way to respect me. But hey, I'm the crazy one.

And yes, I did the TPS reports. :notrust