Shinn vs Kira Debate Thread

[Laughing@you]

Rey can probably be killed by athrun or kira....reactivating Shinns anger and getting butt-whipped by either one of them. God I really hope he gets his butt-kicked......*wonders if anyone realizes that he doesn't like shinn*

[davidsiaw]

Oh my, these forums need to be scaled not by number of posts anymore... but by length of posts :P

Since I don't get the time to post often here, once in a while I read through the replies and noticed that it seems this debate seems to wander off to topics like double-posting and each other's intellect. I beg of you guys to refrain from this kind of attitude. We are here to debate maturely on the rivalry between Shinn and Kira.

Once again, I hope Kira and Shinn fans alike to maintain a positive and open mind and not to flame each other simply because the other side has put up a better argument.

Once again, again, I'll admit that Shinn's assault on Kira was driven solely by the intention to avenge Stellar's death. His attitude and the excuse of "plot device" has been used extensively and creatively by Kira fans who continue to hope and believe in Kira's supremacy over Shinn and that someday he may "Pwn" him for good.

Shinn however, I will repeat myself again, does not understand and know of the Archangel and Kira's intentions of ending the war. Lack of information, is undeniably the reason for Shinn's hate of the AA team. Many have said that Shinn does know, but have failed to give any appropriate proof that he really does. Athrun's telling him that the AA team are not his enemy.
I quote Rey
"We are soldiers who take orders from the supreme council in PLANT, if they decide that we must attack them, they are the enemy."

Shinn and Rey has thus far ignored Athrun's statements that the AA is the good guy, dismissing it as "personal sentiments".
(On a side note. talk is cheap, not because it is not right, but because it MAY not be right.)

This is the way of the soldier. How else apart from loyalty will a good king be able to run a country well? I am not saying that Dullandal is a "good king". I am saying that Shinn has pledged to be a soldier, and has well kept his faith in the PLANT supreme council and in the Chairman to make things right. I believe this is the type of message the series is trying to push forward. Your loyalty to your country will be the thing which determines whether you have a home to return to or not. It is not because anyone would threaten you to do so, it is because you have to decide whether or not to defend your home from anyone who threatens. That is why we have leaders.

I quote again, Azrael from Gundam Seed.
"above all there will be one who considers everything, plans and gives commands".
A soldier's job is to see to it that it is carried out as planned. I quote him because even though his intentions are misguided, he has said many things which are very true, and that's probably why he was the leader of the Blue Cosmos.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. Its pretty hard to understand for someone who doesn't at least work under a boss or a manager of some sort.

Next, Kira. Kira's intentions are good in every sense. He intends to stop a war. He wants to prevent another repeat of the war in Gundam Seed. He wants to help Orb return to its ideals of being a "Neutral nation, and will not invade others, will not assist any invasion, and will not allow any invasion upon itself". I would still attempt to ask myself and everyone, what does the AA plan to accomplish by going out and disabling soldiers? You cannot cut the flow of water with a knife, nor can you stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. The water will flow ever more fiercely, and the man will still stab with his broken sword.

Kira's defeat I believe will serve as a lesson to him. His success in the last war was the fact that he had was fighting alongside an army from the Eternal, Archangel and the Kusanagi. In this war, the archangel fights a losing battle against an extremely well planned scenario set up by the Chairman himself (which is probably the result of playing a lot of chess). The opponent will never let things go your way, and forcing it will only result in your injury. Kira's defeat here is the same as a wrong move and sacrificing one of your rooks in a chess game. Shinn was a knight which although did not have the strength to match the rook, he was placed in an extremely powerful position, which above all else determines the usefulness of a chess piece. Lacus is the queen which has yet to be deployed, and the Chairman knows that well.

Back to Shinn's attitude. Shinn is obviously a kid. His teammates said it too. But it really does not have a lot to do with the him and Kira's rivalry. Many would hate him because of his arrogant attitude. It would only stem from the fact that he has an excellent record, which in turn, adds to the flame in the hearts of the Shinn haters.

Kira is a kind person. He did not attempt to harm anyone. But his power is put into misuse, all the more reason to like him. I would have to say that the reason I said his powers were put into misuse is because Dullandal's very moves forced it. He made sure the Minerva fought battle with Orb, because he knew, after the Archangel had made an appearance to kidnap Calgalli, that they will intervene at any battle against Orb. He forced Minerva to move towards the Destroy Gundam, because he knows of the behaviour of the AA team to interfere in any battle. It was out of pure luck that Kira had flamed Shinn's desire for revenge indirectly by killing Stellar. Dullandal made sure Shinn did not go to court-martial, because he wanted to train him. He wanted a Kira of his own. One that could fight and win any important war. He had a Lacus, which gave him the initial power.

So this explains the rivalry between Shinn and Kira. Have I missed anything out?

[dotWizard]

however you seem to really rub me the wrong way (dont be offended by this).
It's the sarcastic edge I've been slowly applying to each of my posts. As people argue with me, my posts become edgier to provoke emotions that might cause the readers to post something quickly which is incriminating to their argument.

The last post was at 4 a.m. after I came home from a party, so I was, "Dum dee dum, dum dum." :glomp

So don't take offense to what I post, because responding to these forums is all in good fun for me.

Since I've given Shinn fans a hell of a time this past week, I'll switch sides and argue for Shinn and ZAFT this next week.

please dont feel to victemised by the double posting thing, no one was flaming you about (i think), i remember being polite about it.
I know. Just the fact that there wasn't a rule, and you guys were arguing it was a rule and I could disprove it let me add more flame to the emotional fire so that you'd be force to respond not using facts or guidelines but your thoughts and feelings on the matter, and it'd run on to your post as well.

But...seriously, I've gotten multiple double-posting responses from that one time I double-post. Please keep your guidelines on how to post to yourself. I've heard them, and I may follow them if it suits me.

I've read the rules. I don't break them too badly, I think. So if it's all the same, the multiple people who have taken it upon themselves, blessed saviours as they are :amuse, can rest assured, I will try not to cause any major earthquakes/tornadoes/hurricanes/monsoons/death of firstborns to disrupt your lives with my radical ways. [/sarcastic]

Really though, can you see how all this might be funny/ridiculous to me? :P I'm not offended so easily. Don't worry. Just picture me laughing whenever I have to respond to a person who calls me on my double-post.

Not to give any credit to myself of course.
Damn you, credit-stealer!!! Originally, I was just going to do this. :wussfight

However, after seeing this right next to it... I have to use it. :occa

Rey can probably be killed by athrun or kira....reactivating Shinns anger and getting butt-whipped by either one of them.
If the makers do that, I think that's a waste of Rey's potential as a plot twist/character growth for Shinn. Maybe, though.

They did waste Heine by killing him the first time Kira is around, instead of injuring him, using him to plague Athrun and Shinn for a bit while he's just lounging around Minerva, then killing him in a future battle, making Athrun hate Kira even more. Ah well.

We are here to debate maturely on the rivalry between Shinn and Kira.
Explain how. :blink




Just kidding. Amen!

His attitude and the excuse of "plot device" has been used extensively and creatively by Kira fans who continue to hope and believe in Kira's supremacy over Shinn and that someday he may "Pwn" him for good.
I wouldn't say for good. I'd say it'd be the slap on the wrist Shinn needed to truly mourn his family and Stellar's death. Up until now, he's been using them to add fuel to his fire, but is this what his mother, father, sister, Stellar would have wanted?

Would they want Shinn to kill people in their name? Mourning them is not taking a self-righteous attitude and going and getting vengeance. Mourning is to be truly sorrowful and to regret their loss. The least one can do for one's mother, father, and sister who perished so that that person could live on is to listen to them. Listen to what your mother would have said to you had she been alive. Listen to what your sister would have wanted for you. Would she want you to live a life of pain, killing people in her name, etc? No. They all want you to be happy and away from the life of war.

After they died on Orb, a peaceloving country, Shinn's joining ZAFT, I feel, is a slap to their faces. What can he accomplish in ZAFT? He's going to be either a instigator of war or be a part of more killing, causing more people to cry. It's true, he had very few options to turn, but think about it. Of everyone who lost families, friends, and loved ones during that battle, did they all join the military? Probably not.

That's what I think. Shinn has yet to truly mourn his loss. He can cry and shout for vengeance, but he hasn't listened to his heart and the hearts of his beloved family. Joining the military might have been an escape from mourning. Hopefully, he listens soon though. But I digress!

Shinn however, I will repeat myself again, does not understand and know of the Archangel and Kira's intentions of ending the war. Lack of information, is undeniably the reason for Shinn's hate of the AA team. Many have said that Shinn does know, but have failed to give any appropriate proof that he really does. Athrun's telling him that the AA team are not his enemy.
I quote Rey
"We are soldiers who take orders from the supreme council in PLANT, if they decide that we must attack them, they are the enemy."
I think I brought some examples to the table in my previous posts. It pains me to think you just glossed over them.

[dotWizard]

This is the way of the soldier. How else apart from loyalty will a good king be able to run a country well? I am not saying that Dullandal is a "good king". I am saying that Shinn has pledged to be a soldier, and has well kept his faith in the PLANT supreme council and in the Chairman to make things right. I believe this is the type of message the series is trying to push forward. Your loyalty to your country will be the thing which determines whether you have a home to return to or not. It is not because anyone would threaten you to do so, it is because you have to decide whether or not to defend your home from anyone who threatens. That is why we have leaders.
He's loyal to his country, sure. However, to the military? No way. Shinn is always doing radical things according to his feelings. Talking back. Athrun and Talia have time and time again scolded him. Rey has even scolded him for talking back. He doesn't respect military and rank. That's obvious.

I can't argue that Shinn is loyal to PLANT, because Dullindal is manipulating him into thinking that the war he's fighting is just, but is that what all his life is leading up to? Everything that has happened to him has caused him to turn into a nationalist peon? Dullindal and Rey points, and he destroys?

If anything, this argument makes me appreciate and respect Shinn less. I just want Shinn to question PLANT, Dullindal, Rey, and the war, with the same insight he uses to question those against PLANT, Dullindal, Rey, and the war. I wrote about this in challenging your own beliefs. You can challenge everything against what you believe. That's easy. But, it takes a great amount of intelligence, awareness, and ability to question what you yourself believe in. I believe Shinn has that intelligence, awareness, and ability. He's just not using it.

I would still attempt to ask myself and everyone, what does the AA plan to accomplish by going out and disabling soldiers? You cannot cut the flow of water with a knife, nor can you stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. The water will flow ever more fiercely, and the man will still stab with his broken sword.
I believe you were the one who asked this before, and I answered it before. Let's not backtrack.

Kira's defeat I believe will serve as a lesson to him. His success in the last war was the fact that he had was fighting alongside an army from the Eternal, Archangel and the Kusanagi. In this war, the archangel fights a losing battle against an extremely well planned scenario set up by the Chairman himself (which is probably the result of playing a lot of chess). The opponent will never let things go your way, and forcing it will only result in your injury. Kira's defeat here is the same as a wrong move and sacrificing one of your rooks in a chess game. Shinn was a knight which although did not have the strength to match the rook, he was placed in an extremely powerful position, which above all else determines the usefulness of a chess piece. Lacus is the queen which has yet to be deployed, and the Chairman knows that well.
What was the lesson Kira learned? He was defending Archangel. I agree with you that he was forced to. Yes, Kira and Archangel lost, because they were outnumbered. You could say Shinn's success in this last battle was the fact that he was fighting alongside an army from the...whatever that other ship was called and Minerva. I agree with all of this. It's pretty much episode summary. I'll skip all the analogies of chess, because...it sounds nice and sophisticated, but it doesn't really add anything to what you're trying to say.

So, I guess you're arguing that Kira and Archangel lost, because they made a wrong move in trying to return to Orb. Okay. Well, should they have sat by and watched everyone die around them? Should they have waited while Lacus returned? Ulterior motives are revealed for the first time and sides are chosen in Episode 34. Kira did his best defending Archangel, and Freedom was destroyed in the process. I'm still not arguing with you there. I...just can't find a point to this paragraph other than rubbing their defeat in.

Archangel did get away, and the only casualty was the Freedom. No Murasame pilots were lost, which was their goal, as they need the pilots later on. Kira did not die. I'd say, Kira and Archangel succeeded even in a time of conflict. Freedom may have been lost, but no one's lives were lost. Mobile suits can be rebuilt. People can not be remade.

Did they lose overall? No. As you said, Lacus is still in space. They were able to think well enough ahead to allow her to go, and the Freedom may not have been sacrificed in vain, as everyone is alive, and Archangel is running on very few people so they need everyone they can get. I'd say it was a wise move on Kira and Archangel's part.

Now to see what Lacus does to balance things out.

Many would hate him because of his arrogant attitude. It would only stem from the fact that he has an excellent record, which in turn, adds to the flame in the hearts of the Shinn haters.
Now, that's unfair. I hate him despite his excellent record. He could be the worst pilot in the world, and I'd still hate him, because he's an arrogant, self-righteous, self-pitying little boy who has no respect for anyone. Did I mess up anywhere there? Kira could be the worst pilot in the world and have his character traits, and I would like him. Shinn could be the worst pilot in the world and have GOOD character traits, and I would like him, disregarding the fact that he's on the opposing team.

I liked Auel, and he was on EA. He was cool.

So, I hate Shinn for the person he is, not the many great things he's done.

But his power is put into misuse, all the more reason to like him. I would have to say that the reason I said his powers were put into misuse is because Dullandal's very moves forced it.
Can you rephrase that?

He made sure the Minerva fought battle with Orb, because he knew, after the Archangel had made an appearance to kidnap Calgalli, that they will intervene at any battle against Orb.
Where'd you get that?

He forced Minerva to move towards the Destroy Gundam, because he knows of the behaviour of the AA team to interfere in any battle.
I'd say he used Minerva and the fight with Destroy Gundam to have a basis for his broadcast to the world. Pictures of Destroy were used to fire people up against Logos.

Of course, he knew Kira would be there but placing the two ships together against one enemy could have taken a turn for the worst, as Minerva and Archangel could have befriended each other, spoiling his plans. UNLESS, he knew Stellar was piloting Destroy. This battle took place AFTER Shinn returned Stellar, so it's very possible that Dullindal had contact with EA/Neo and planned that. However, I don't think it was just "forc Minerva to move towards the Destroy Gundam, because he knows of the behaviour of the AA team to interfere in any battle."

Dullandal made sure Shinn did not go to court-martial, because he wanted to train him. He wanted a Kira of his own. One that could fight and win any important war. He had a Lacus, which gave him the initial power.
First sentence, I agree. Second sentence, okay. Third sentence, umm...sure. Fourth sentence, where the hell did you get that? :oh

So this explains the rivalry between Shinn and Kira. Have I missed anything out?
...Wait, what? You went on about a multitude of different topics, and...you ended with an unsupported, very [I]loaded, controversial statement. Can you outline that for us?

I seriously did not expect that last line. It threw me off. :blink

[antoine]

Even in seed, AA, Eternal, and Kusanagi, were fighting a losing battle.

[davidsiaw]

I would appreciate it if you actually read the whole post in its entirety. I built on what I'm saying in every previous paragraph. From here it seems you simply look at a paragraph and reply to it. Up front, your rebutts make little sense.

Alright. I will attempt to clarify my standpoint.

First of all, I would like to quote your first statement in reply to my post
Just kidding. Amen!

Good to hear that you agree that we should debate maturely, and put forth solid facts with priority given to relevance to the Kira vs Shinn topic.

Next, in your reply to my argument that

"His (Shinn's) attitude and the excuse of "plot device" has been used extensively and creatively by Kira fans who continue to hope and believe in Kira's supremacy over Shinn and that someday he may "Pwn" him for good."


I wouldn't say for good. I'd say it'd be the slap on the wrist Shinn needed to truly mourn his family and Stellar's death. Up until now, he's been using them to add fuel to his fire, but is this what his mother, father, sister, Stellar would have wanted?

Would they want Shinn to kill people in their name? Mourning them is not taking a self-righteous attitude and going and getting vengeance. Mourning is to be truly sorrowful and to regret their loss. The least one can do for one's mother, father, and sister who perished so that that person could live on is to listen to them. Listen to what your mother would have said to you had she been alive. Listen to what your sister would have wanted for you. Would she want you to live a life of pain, killing people in her name, etc? No. They all want you to be happy and away from the life of war.

After they died on Orb, a peaceloving country, Shinn's joining ZAFT, I feel, is a slap to their faces. What can he accomplish in ZAFT? He's going to be either a instigator of war or be a part of more killing, causing more people to cry. It's true, he had very few options to turn, but think about it. Of everyone who lost families, friends, and loved ones during that battle, did they all join the military? Probably not.

That's what I think. Shinn has yet to truly mourn his loss. He can cry and shout for vengeance, but he hasn't listened to his heart and the hearts of his beloved family. Joining the military might have been an escape from mourning. Hopefully, he listens soon though. But I digress!


I have attempted to not take your rebutts lightly, which I have initially decided to do, because your statements have strayed from the subject.

First of all, I did not say that was what the dead guys would have wanted. Next, how would you know that Shinn did not mourn his family and Stellar's death? They never showed it, doesn't mean it did happen. It also doesn't mean it DID NOT happen. These are the things that are very ambiguous and are not solid and thus should not be included into the debate at all. If you wish to, please make it a statement instead and support your reasons to think that.

Next, I agree. No one would like to a person to kill in their name. It is an act of selfishness. But that's not the point. The rest of the paragraph are your personal thoughts, which usually are influenced by fluctuating emotions. So I will not comment.

Next, I understand what you're trying to say here. The family wants peace, but after they left, the son makes war. Its a matter of choice. Why would you question his decision to join ZAFT? He needs a job. Why not the military? I believe he only wanted the power to defend his homeland as the first thing in his mind that drove this decision.

Again, listening to "his heart and the hearts of his beloved family." It would be greatly appreciated if you could put this in words less figuratively.

Having quoted me means you will rebutt my argument. Which you did not. My point in this paragraph is that Kira fans have been using Shinn's attitude and "plot device" in order to defend Kira's defeat. The subject is Kira fans. Not Shinn.


I think I brought some examples to the table in my previous posts. It pains me to think you just glossed over them.


If I ignored your comments before, I am sorry if you have been offended by it. But as I stated before, I did so because your arguments were neither strong nor weak, they were irrelevant where my argument was concerned.


He's loyal to his country, sure. However, to the military? No way. Shinn is always doing radical things according to his feelings. Talking back. Athrun and Talia have time and time again scolded him. Rey has even scolded him for talking back. He doesn't respect military and rank. That's obvious.

I can't argue that Shinn is loyal to PLANT, because Dullindal is manipulating him into thinking that the war he's fighting is just, but is that what all his life is leading up to? Everything that has happened to him has caused him to turn into a nationalist peon? Dullindal and Rey points, and he destroys?

If anything, this argument makes me appreciate and respect Shinn less. I just want Shinn to question PLANT, Dullindal, Rey, and the war, with the same insight he uses to question those against PLANT, Dullindal, Rey, and the war. I wrote about this in challenging your own beliefs. You can challenge everything against what you believe. That's easy. But, it takes a great amount of intelligence, awareness, and ability to question what you yourself believe in. I believe Shinn has that intelligence, awareness, and ability. He's just not using it.


First, I'd like to say I'm happy with you agreeing with me that Shinn is loyal to his country. It is true Shinn does not respect rank. That's obvious. Agreed. His superiors have to constantly engage him and reprimand him. But a soldier fights for his country, not his officers. Shinn does not disobey them, he just doesn't respect them. That's all. His loyalty to the military is indeed different from his loyalty to the country. But loyalty to the military has nothing to do with loyalty to the country. You could follow a corrupt general with all your heart and not care about the interests of your country while fighting, or you could, for the sake of your country's immediate interest, disobey orders and act by yourself. But that's going too far. I only said he was loyal to the country. I haven't mentioned the military at all.

Agreed. He has put his faith entirely in the supreme council.

OKAY! I want to quote Muu La Fllaga:
"A soldier taking off his uniform creates a bigger dillema than you think!"
He said this to Kira in Gundam Seed, when Kira asked Athrun to join the rebel 3-ships alliance.

I quote Lacus Clyne:
"First you decide, then you go on with it."

She said this to Calgalli in the AA's hot bath.

Basically, challenging your own beliefs does take a lot of work indeed. But it only leads to indecision, which sometimes will cost your life. Beliefs allow planning, planning results in decision. Being a devil's advocate is not a problem at all. But in the end you accomplish nothing. It only makes you a great thinker, and puts you in the position of indecision to whether or not to be or not to be. Seriously, you have to draw a line on what kind of your own beliefs you want to challenge. Would you want to die wondering why you defended your country in the first place? Shinn does not.


I believe you were the one who asked this before, and I answered it before. Let's not backtrack.


It would be appreciated for you to repeat what you said in response to my argument you are referring to here.

[davidsiaw]

What was the lesson Kira learned? He was defending Archangel. I agree with you that he was forced to. Yes, Kira and Archangel lost, because they were outnumbered. You could say Shinn's success in this last battle was the fact that he was fighting alongside an army from the...whatever that other ship was called and Minerva. I agree with all of this. It's pretty much episode summary. I'll skip all the analogies of chess, because...it sounds nice and sophisticated, but it doesn't really add anything to what you're trying to say.

So, I guess you're arguing that Kira and Archangel lost, because they made a wrong move in trying to return to Orb. Okay. Well, should they have sat by and watched everyone die around them? Should they have waited while Lacus returned? Ulterior motives are revealed for the first time and sides are chosen in Episode 34. Kira did his best defending Archangel, and Freedom was destroyed in the process. I'm still not arguing with you there. I...just can't find a point to this paragraph other than rubbing their defeat in.

Archangel did get away, and the only casualty was the Freedom. No Murasame pilots were lost, which was their goal, as they need the pilots later on. Kira did not die. I'd say, Kira and Archangel succeeded even in a time of conflict. Freedom may have been lost, but no one's lives were lost. Mobile suits can be rebuilt. People can not be remade.

Did they lose overall? No. As you said, Lacus is still in space. They were able to think well enough ahead to allow her to go, and the Freedom may not have been sacrificed in vain, as everyone is alive, and Archangel is running on very few people so they need everyone they can get. I'd say it was a wise move on Kira and Archangel's part.

Now to see what Lacus does to balance things out.


Kira has learned a lesson: You cannot cut the flow of water with a knife, nor can you stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. The water will flow ever more fiercely, and the man will still stab with his broken sword.
Does that answer your question?

Skip all the analogies of chess. I'm sorry you're not a chess player. It would greatly facilitate my attempt to convey my point. Since you expressed that you haven't really gotten my point, I apologize for not conveying it properly.

I only said that Dullandal has put Shinn in a position to defeat Kira. No matter how you look at it, the AA had no choice but to run back to Orb, since ZAFT has
all guns blazing. What I wanted to say, forgive me for putting it bluntly, the Archangel has accomplished what Kira asked them to do at the expense of Freedom. Which, is the result of the rivalry between them.

On a side note, since I cannot just leave your statement unanswered, is that you could say Shinn was fighting with an army, you could say Kira was fighting against an army because he was trying to protect AA. Remember, after Shinn launched, it was a one on one fight. Kira had attempted to kill Shinn, that was when Shinn split in two and knocked out Freedom's wings.

Lacus in space is not relevant to this. Forgive me for even mentioning it in my post.

Rubbing their defeat in? You could say its that way, or it could be you who feels threatened by my post that states the present status of Kira and Shinn's rivalry.

they lose overall, no. Kira lost. Not the archangel.


Many would hate him because of his arrogant attitude. It would only stem from the fact that he has an excellent record, which in turn, adds to the flame in the hearts of the Shinn haters.


Yes I know. Its unfair. Much as I dislike seeing Kira rub his superiority in by simply disabling units, insulting their ability to fight back. So you hate based on the character traits. No comment. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


But his power is put into misuse, all the more reason to like him. I would have to say that the reason I said his powers were put into misuse is because Dullandal's very moves forced it.


Rephrase: He is powerful but his hand is forced by Dullandal's move. Many can say that its not his fault. Back to your question about challenging your own beliefs. Now, instead of that, what about questioning your own actions? Kira surely didn't. Neither did Shinn. So none of them are doing the right thing. eh?


He made sure the Minerva fought battle with Orb, because he knew, after the Archangel had made an appearance to kidnap Calgalli, that they will intervene at any battle against Orb.


This is deduced. Remember that after AA kidnapped Calgalli, and Orb signed the treaty with EA, the Minerva was ordered to face the Orb forces and EA at the Black Sea. Dullandal wants Shinn to see Freedom, he wants him to learn to fight it, and then finally to fight it for him.


He forced Minerva to move towards the Destroy Gundam, because he knows of the behaviour of the AA team to interfere in any battle.



I'd say he used Minerva and the fight with Destroy Gundam to have a basis for his broadcast to the world. Pictures of Destroy were used to fire people up against Logos.

Of course, he knew Kira would be there but placing the two ships together against one enemy could have taken a turn for the worst, as Minerva and Archangel could have befriended each other, spoiling his plans. UNLESS, he knew Stellar was piloting Destroy. This battle took place AFTER Shinn returned Stellar, so it's very possible that Dullindal had contact with EA/Neo and planned that. However, I don't think it was just "forc[ing] Minerva to move towards the Destroy Gundam, because he knows of the behaviour of the AA team to interfere in any battle."


The pictures thing is one of the probable reasons for attacking Destroy. Its true. Dullandal used those pictures to the fullest.
The EA/Neo and Dullandal communicado is your speculation which you did not reinforce. Only saying that its possible makes it a very ambiguous topic open to argument. I suggest you put forth some facts from the anime.
He knows. Believe me. You don't know what great tacticians are capable of. And I reinforce this with my speculation, and I will elaborate this. Dullandal wants Minerva to move in to take on Destroy, because he knows the AA will be there too. How does he know? The request for help is sent through the International Distress Channel, and the AA is nearby in Scandinavia, they will surely go to their aid. Considering Dullandal doesn't know AA's whereabouts, he can deduce it from the AA's previous position. They would not have gone far, since they want to stop a war and the Minerva is still the most powerful Battleship around. The AA will surely appear, because it is serious, and judging from the actions of the AA in the previous war, Dullandal as a fact, knows that the AA will heed the distress call.

He could just have easily used more prepared fighting divisions against the Destroy, to reinforce the ZAFT defence there. The Minerva however, had his ace, and sending him out there meant more training for him, and maybe even more chances for him to meet Freedom! Stellar's death, like I said was luck for the Chairman, because it is difficult to say that Dullandal knew Shinn and Stellar had something, and its difficult to say if Destroy would be destroyed, and its difficult to say if Shinn will avenge Stellar.


this is why I do not like to speculate in a debate. we need to give quite a lot of proof since the deductions are usually not self-explanatory.



First sentence, I agree. Second sentence, okay. Third sentence, umm...sure. Fourth sentence, where the hell did you get that?


One more time, the fourth sentence, "a Lacus that gave him the initial power" He had a fake Lacus (Meer) to gain the support of the people for him, and to boost their morale for him. That was the initial move that bought him the support he needed to proceed. That's where I got it.


...Wait, what? You went on about a multitude of different topics, and...you ended with an unsupported, very loaded, controversial statement. Can you outline that for us?


of course it threw you off... you were too busy thinking of how to rebutt my arguments you did not even consider the post as a whole. What I'm trying to say is, Dullandal's moves are causing Shinn and Kira to be rivals. thats all. And I use all of that to reinforce my arguments. There's no reason to hate Shinn, because of his attitude? He is a pawn in Dullandal's masterplan. Ring a bell?

[Ganj]

I gotta agree with davidsiaw. Granted, the Archangel and the Freedom were defeated, but considering their victory to defeat ratio, this one, however, significant was rather empty. The ZAFT's means of defeating them was through strategy and cunning was tactically sound, but you have agree, their ambush was purely out of desperation rather than war tactics. They knew the Archangel was never a hostile threat, if a threat at all. True, they poses an "possible" but dialouge between the two factions and past actions of the Archangel clearly show a neutral stance, only becoming a military threat when provoked. In other words, ZAFT couldn't assert themselves as the dominant power with them around so they wanted them gone ANY way possible.

Now on to Shinn's vendetta battle againt Kira. One word, "Bullshit". Shinn's speech of "Being ready able to defeat a possible threat" totally contradicts the statement by his actions. "Being ready" means just that "Being ready", being prepared to do so. We all know that given any chance, Shinn would have attacked the Freedom, orders or not, on basis of vengence. But I'll give it up to him, the boy was slick in that battle. But their battle was more like a fight between a small boy against a grown man; with the boy winning means of bobi-trapping (Sorry if misspelled) the battlegrounds. I say this in the sense that Kira flat-out was the superior. He could have killed Shinn anytime during the course. His downfall wasn't due to Shinn's tactics, but Kira underestimating Shinn's tenacity. But even still, Shinn DIDN'T kill Kira! Even in defeat, Kira showed cunning and foresight that noone has ever seen. (SPOILERS!: Phase 35, he switched off the nuclear reactor at the last minute.) Seeing this, proved to me that Kira's used this as a means of ending the fight and escaping clear of the enemy pursuit. I mean, how else would they have? But anyways, now seeing what Shinn, and possibly other pilots, may try has only made Kira an even more powerful force, don't you think? Shinn won't get off another victory, at least not so easily.

[davidsiaw]

Hehe nice. I have to disagree with you though, about the Archangel's becoming a military threat ONLY when provoked. The battles at the Black Sea and the Dardenelles are never provoked them. They came on their own accord.

ZAFT wants to be dominant. That is so true. Kudos for pointing that out. Captain Gladys had hesitated to attack the Archangel, because she knew the enemy had good intentions. But remember. A soldier's loyalty still stands above all else. Even if they are hated for it, and I really admire her for still firing even though she knows it might not be good. But orders are orders.

Shinn's fight against Kira was in many ways fueled by revenge. I agree totally. But it was orders that allowed him to do so. Well... erm... Shinn was ready to battle him indeed.

Kira did underestimate his tenacity. True. No telling if he did realize that Shinn was actually all-out to kill him halfway thru battle and made attempts at his life.

Booby trapping... haha... I didn't see any traps. Small boys usually don't win fights against grown men. No matter how smart they try to get. I like your analogy but it was ineffective.

More like Kira's nuclear reactor got cut off as a result of damage. But its something no one can be sure of so no point arguing about that.

Cunning and foresight? Not sure what you mean by that haha... if you would care to explain ^_^

Kira obviously will not let Shinn off the second time. Lets all pray for a really good fight between them the next time.

[dotWizard]

Well, I should probably do this when I'm more awake than tired from being out all day, but I don't want to wake up to this stuff, so here goes.

I would appreciate it if you actually read the whole post in its entirety. I built on what I'm saying in every previous paragraph. From here it seems you simply look at a paragraph and reply to it. Up front, your rebutts make little sense.
Okay. I'd appreciate it if you made sure your subjects, verbs, and nouns in your sentences are clear and coherent, since most of the time, I have to read a sentence over and over, because some just grammatically suck. I just figured your English wasn't good, but since you're commenting on my posting style, I guess I'm free to comment on yours.

First of all, I did not say that was what the dead guys would have wanted.
Yes, but I did. If you agree, great. If you don't? I don't really care...

His (Shinn's) attitude and the excuse of "plot device" has been used extensively and creatively by Kira fans who continue to hope and believe in Kira's supremacy over Shinn and that someday he may "Pwn" him for good.
To continue with the original statement, Shinn's attitude and the excuse of plot device is also used to support Shinn fans who continue to hope that Shinn may defeat Kira. Both sides use these. What's your point?

Next, how would you know that Shinn did not mourn his family and Stellar's death? They never showed it, doesn't mean it did happen. It also doesn't mean it DID NOT happen.
I was responding to your use of the statement, "'pwn' him for good." It lead to my wanting Kira to slap Shinn on the wrist, which led to why Shinn would need a slap on the wrist. I don't believe that's what Kira fans want, so I responded to that. Sorry if I lost you.

These are the things that are very ambiguous and are not solid and thus should not be included into the debate at all. If you wish to, please make it a statement instead and support your reasons to think that.
Uh huh.

But that's not the point. The rest of the paragraph are your personal thoughts, which usually are influenced by fluctuating emotions. So I will not comment.
Fluctuating emotions? Give me a break. I'm usually bored responding to you, so I'd say I have one emotion. So instead of saying what your point actually was, which I missed I guess, you go on about your thoughts of my thoughts and "fluctuating emotions." So, I will not comment. This ties in with my missing your point with the entire talking about Kira fans, etc.

The family wants peace, but after they left, the son makes war. Its a matter of choice. Why would you question his decision to join ZAFT?
I question his decision based on what you just said. Family wants peace. His pain was a product of war, so why does he want to make war? Joining ZAFT is irrational.

I believe he only wanted the power to defend his homeland as the first thing in his mind that drove this decision.
His homeland is Orb when he becomes an orphan, so I don't see why he would change his allegiance to PLANT, which was attacking Orb at the time as well, if I remember correctly. If anything, Shinn would be a Murasame pilot to defend his homeland.

I can understand him taking your course of action if he doesn't learn about Orb, EA, and ZAFT, but I'd think he would, since he'd wonder why his parents and sister had to die. You could say plot device, but we're trying to rationalize why he made this decision.

Having quoted me means you will rebutt my argument. Which you did not. My point in this paragraph is that Kira fans have been using Shinn's attitude and "plot device" in order to defend Kira's defeat. The subject is Kira fans. Not Shinn.
I was responding to part of your statement, and that statement wasn't even a fully developed argument. See above. I'll just humor you. Why would Kira fans defend Kira's defeat? Most likely, they would if they see Kira's defeat as unjust or unfair. Don't you agree that Kira was defeated because Shinn intended to kill and had an advantage? You state Dullindal put Shinn at such an advantage to begin with. Don't you agree that Kira and Shinn aren't equal just yet? Shinn fans are saying they're equal, and that Shinn killed Kira fair and square. Kira fans are arguing that Shinn isn't at Kira's level yet, and the battle wasn't fair at all. From what I understand of your posts, you agree with Kira fans.

I still don't see a point to your statement.

Shinn however, I will repeat myself again, does not understand and know of the Archangel and Kira's intentions of ending the war. Lack of information, is undeniably the reason for Shinn's hate of the AA team. Many have said that Shinn does know, but have failed to give any appropriate proof that he really does.

If I ignored your comments before, I am sorry if you have been offended by it. But as I stated before, I did so because your arguments were neither strong nor weak, they were irrelevant where my argument was concerned.
You said that people failed to give any appropriate proof that Shinn does have information about Kira and Archangel. In a previous post, I addressed Shinn having enough information about Kira and Archangel to make an informed decision about them, but he failed to make it.

I'd say that's very relevant to your argument.

Shinn does not disobey them, he just doesn't respect them.
He returned Stellar.

This is the way of the soldier. How else apart from loyalty will a good king be able to run a country well? I am not saying that Dullandal is a "good king". I am saying that Shinn has pledged to be a soldier, and has well kept his faith in the PLANT supreme council and in the Chairman to make things right. [...] That is why we have leaders.
I only said he was loyal to the country. I haven't mentioned the military at all.
I view being loyal to PLANT and the Supreme Council, including Dullindal, is being loyal to ZAFT, which is controlled by the Supreme Council and Dullindal. In GSD's case, Dullindal and ZAFT are one and the same. ZAFT fulfills Dullindal's wishes. He's the chess player and ZAFT are his pieces. Everyone follows Dullindal so closely that there isn't really a difference.

You say you didn't mention the military, but you say Shinn has "pledged to be a soldier." "This is the way of the soldier." These are your mention of the military.

Basically, challenging your own beliefs does take a lot of work indeed. But it only leads to indecision, which sometimes will cost your life. Beliefs allow planning, planning results in decision. Being a devil's advocate is not a problem at all. But in the end you accomplish nothing. It only makes you a great thinker, and puts you in the position of indecision to whether or not to be or not to be. Seriously, you have to draw a line on what kind of your own beliefs you want to challenge. Would you want to die wondering why you defended your country in the first place? Shinn does not.
Challenging your own beliefs doesn't only lead to indecision. Wrong beliefs allow wrong planning, and wrong planning results in wrong decisions.

Questioning your beliefs accomplishes Truth. Truth puts you in a greater position to make correct decisions. You have to question all of your beliefs, not just beliefs you hand-select to be challenged.

I'll answer your question with another question. Would you want to kill people under the guidance of incorrect decisions? Shinn does, apparently.

And, I don't mean for Shinn to question things on the battlefield, I just want him to question things fairly period. Before he sleeps, maybe. While he's taking a bath? Shinn obviously has time to question some things excessively, and he should have time to question everything else as well.

[dotWizard]

It would be appreciated for you to repeat what you said in response to my argument you are referring to here.
I wrote my post in response to your post so that you could read it. Since my post was a response to your post, which you're bringing up again, you should be able to scroll up and find my response to your post. If you don't want to waste your time scrolling up and finding where I answered your question that you already asked before, why should I have to find it and repost it for you?

Kira has learned a lesson: You cannot cut the flow of water with a knife, nor can you stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. The water will flow ever more fiercely, and the man will still stab with his broken sword. Does that answer your question?
This ties in with the above statement, because you interpret Kira's actions as trying to stop a war. I have responded that he wasn't trying to cut the flow of water with a knife, and he wasn't trying to stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. More on this can be found in my same response to your argument in the previous post. When we start backtracking, I just find it time to stop debating.

Skip all the analogies of chess. I'm sorry you're not a chess player. It would greatly facilitate my attempt to convey my point. Since you expressed that you haven't really gotten my point, I apologize for not conveying it properly.
I play chess. I just said that it didn't really add anything to what you had already said on the matter. Comparing Kira to a rook, Shinn to a knight put in a position to take the rook, and Dullindal knowing that Lacus, the white Queen, has yet to make her move, I feel, does not add to your message. I would have understood everything just the same had you not made these comparisons and turned it into a big analogy. You conveyed it well enough. I just didn't find the need to respond to it.

No matter how you look at it, the AA had no choice but to run back to Orb, since ZAFT has all guns blazing.
Archangel made the choice to return to Orb before ZAFT had its guns ablazing. ZAFT attacked after Archangel started moving.

What I wanted to say, forgive me for putting it bluntly, the Archangel has accomplished what Kira asked them to do at the expense of Freedom. Which, is the result of the rivalry between them.
Blunt is fine. Clear would be better. This sentence is hard to read. The Archangel accomplished...saving some lives of Orb, I'm guessing is what you mean by what Kira asked them to do? At the expense of Freedom. Right. I said that.

"Which is a result of the rivalry between them..." I did try to read everything before this sentence to make sense of it, but since you mentioned Shinn's name once, "Dullindal has put Shinn in a position to defeat Kira," it's still nonsensical. I guess if you're trying to add a point at the end out of nowhere, that would be it... Yes. Freedom was destroyed, because Shinn hated Kira, disregarding the fact that I went on about how Shinn was being irrational for hating Kira. However, since you like the word, "rivalry," I'll give it to you.

It still doesn't make sense why you'd add that at the end, though.

On a side note, since I cannot just leave your statement unanswered, is that you could say Shinn was fighting with an army, you could say Kira was fighting against an army because he was trying to protect AA.
That's horribly worded. Yeah, I will say Kira was fighting against Shinn and an army, because he was trying to protect Archangel. So, Shinn was fighting with an army.

Remember, after Shinn launched, it was a one on one fight. Kira had attempted to kill Shinn, that was when Shinn split in two and knocked out Freedom's wings.
It was not a one-on-one fight. Kira is responsible for the safety of the Archangel. That means he needs to protect them from attacks when he can. And when the Tanhauser is fired from the Minerva, the explosion knocks Freedom forward and towards Shinn and his sword.

You're not going to convince me that Kira was free to fight Shinn with all his might, because Kira's attention was diverted. Kira is not one to sacrifice all of Archangel to fight Shinn one-on-one in an ego/revenge battle. Ergo, the one-on-one fight did not happen.

It's very possible for that one move, Kira thought to kill Shinn, because he was in dire need to return to Archangel. For the rest of the battle, before and after that, he did not try to kill Shinn. He fires at Shinn's head/weapon before the signature move, and in the end, he is blown forward to Shinn. Since Archangel is in the water and he can't do anything more to help them, he once again seeks to disable Shinn and stabs Impulse in the head (camera sensor). If Kira wanted to kill Shinn in that last instant, it'd be easier to stab the torso, because it's a bigger target. Instead, Kira reverts to disabling and picks the smaller target--Impulse's head.

So, sure. You're trying to argue that Kira was fighting one-on-one and with full force, but I don't think Kira did. Kira had no intention to kill Shinn from the start. He may have, out of desperation, tried to kill Shinn when it was getting really rough, but he didn't kill Shinn in the end, when he could have. And as for your one-on-one battle, it never happened. Kira was looking away from Shinn for most of the battle, signifying that his attention was more on trying to protect Archangel. That alone contradicts Shinn fan arguments that Kira and Shinn were battling each other and trying to kill each other the entire time fair and square.

Lacus in space is not relevant to this. Forgive me for even mentioning it in my post.
No. I'd say it is. You mention that Dullindal was forcing Kira to sacrifice Freedom or Archangel or a rook in your analogy, and Kira has chosen to sacrifice the Freedom. Dullindal did plan ahead very well and placed Shinn, Dullindal's knight (a weaker piece than a rook)in the position to take the rook/Freedom or the King/Kira/Archangel and with them, the entire game. However, the White Queen has made her move far in advance, compensating for the sacrificed Freedom/rook by: stealing Strike Freedom/recovering another rook and allowing Kira and Archangel to avoid a very deadly checkmate.

[dotWizard]

Rubbing their defeat in? You could say its that way, or it could be you who feels threatened by my post that states the present status of Kira and Shinn's rivalry.
Threatened by what? Your poorly stated argument? All you said was Kira learned his lesson, followed by facts of where ships and pieces went. Your entire paragraph had no point to it, from what I observed. If you had a point, I'd say, "Oh. He's pointing all this out to make this point." However, there was no point to refreshing all that information in a nice little chess analogy. So, I sarcastically implied your rubbing it in. Here's your post again:
Kira's defeat I believe will serve as a lesson to him. His success in the last war was the fact that he had was fighting alongside an army from the Eternal, Archangel and the Kusanagi. In this war, the archangel fights a losing battle against an extremely well planned scenario set up by the Chairman himself (which is probably the result of playing a lot of chess). The opponent will never let things go your way, and forcing it will only result in your injury. Kira's defeat here is the same as a wrong move and sacrificing one of your rooks in a chess game. Shinn was a knight which although did not have the strength to match the rook, he was placed in an extremely powerful position, which above all else determines the usefulness of a chess piece. Lacus is the queen which has yet to be deployed, and the Chairman knows that well.
Half of it is plot summary with chess analogies that don't add anything to the plot summary. I could have posted the above response of mine without chess analogies in a neater, clearer argument, but you seem to like chess, so I humored you. In it, you try to add things that sound nice, but they just clutter your paragraph, making it very hard to follow. Example: "The opponent will never let things go your way, and forcing it will only result in your injury." Whether or not an opponent lets things go your way depends on if the opponent is smarter than you or not, but no, they never try to let things go your way...

Forcing your way will not always result in your injury, because if opponents naturally don't want to let you have your way, you are naturally forcing your way on them, and if you succeed or are smarter, you will win, not be injured. Kira isn't defeated by sacrificing Freedom. The game isn't checkmate yet. I feel you're just trying to force your own analogy of chess on Gundam Seed Destiny, and you're not doing a very good job of it. Or maybe I'm just not as brilliant as you to understand this great game of chess.

So, when I say you're rubbing it in, I mean...the paragraph seemed to serve no purpose other than stating what was already known. It's like me saying Shinn got punched, and in being punched, he learned a lesson. While Shinn's knight was put in the position to take Kira's rook, Athrun's pawn was able to take Shinn's knight when Shinn was getting overconfident. Athrun's pawn symbolizes his fist and Shinn's knight takes on the symbol of Shinn's face. Athrun's pawn taking Shinn's knight represents Athrun's fist in Shinn's face. The opponent will never let things go your way, and forcing it will only result in your injury.

I started with Shinn learning a lesson. I added a fact about Athrun punching Shinn, and I turned it into a nice chess analogy which...actually doesn't make sense, but you get the idea. So, if you weren't rubbing it in, I apologize, because your point was lost on me.

Now, you said your point was:
"Kira has learned a lesson: You cannot cut the flow of water with a knife, nor can you stop a man from fighting by breaking his sword. The water will flow ever more fiercely, and the man will still stab with his broken sword."

My counter-argument is...Kira never meant to stop everyone from hating and fighting by breaking everyone's weapons. He was just buying time to try to stop Orb through persuasion. In the end, he did not succeed in persuading Orb, but he did succeed in getting some true Orb supporters on his side.

Kira never meant to stop Minerva from fighting long-term. He, again, wanted to buy time and stop them short-term. He did buy time, and he did stop them for a short amount of time.

they lose overall, no. Kira lost. Not the archangel.
Freedom was sacrificed, but it's not checkmate. If Lacus and Eternal is the White Queen in your analogy, Kira and Archangel would be the White King. The White King survives. The rook is gone, but the White King has not lost yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dotWizard
"Many would hate him because of his arrogant attitude. It would only stem from the fact that he has an excellent record, which in turn, adds to the flame in the hearts of the Shinn haters."

Yes I know. Its unfair. Much as I dislike seeing Kira rub his superiority in by simply disabling units, insulting their ability to fight back.
...the quote you quoted was what you said, not what I said. ...Kira isn't rubbing his superiority in by simply disabling units? Would you rather he kill people? He isn't insulting their ability to fight back. He's disabling their ability to fight back.

He is powerful but his hand is forced by Dullandal's move. Many can say that its not his fault. Back to your question about challenging your own beliefs. Now, instead of that, what about questioning your own actions? Kira surely didn't. Neither did Shinn. So none of them are doing the right thing. eh?
Kira...decided that Dullindal's broadcast has made time of the utmost importance to stop countries from eating themselves. Kira and Archangel stopped what they were doing and decided to return to Orb and resolve this conflict at hand. How is that not questioning his actions? He realized that they can do no more for Orb while away, so they changed their course of action and decided to return.

But I agree with you on one part. Shinn didn't question his actions. The right thing changed for Kira and Archangel, and they moved accordingly.

The EA/Neo and Dullandal communicado is your speculation which you did not reinforce. Only saying that its possible makes it a very ambiguous topic open to argument. I suggest you put forth some facts from the anime.
It's speculation. I just said it was possible, because it was on my mind. I suggest you not take this so seriously.

of course it threw you off... you were too busy thinking of how to rebutt my arguments you did not even consider the post as a whole. What I'm trying to say is, Dullandal's moves are causing Shinn and Kira to be rivals. thats all. And I use all of that to reinforce my arguments. There's no reason to hate Shinn, because of his attitude? He is a pawn in Dullandal's masterplan. Ring a bell?
No, I glossed over the post again to make sense of your last sentence. You hop from one topic to another, so when you end with one sentence that you seem to think summarizes everything you've said, it doesn't work out that way. If things that preceded it were mostly about Shinn, I would have seen it. However, a large portion of the post above that sentence is about Kira. So, it was poor organization and topic hopping that makes it hard to get your entire message as why Shinn and Kira are rivals.

The rest of the post, I agree with. However, your entire reasoning behind Dullindal putting Freedom and Impulse together... They could have befriended each other against Destroy, had Stellar not been in the cockpit. If Stellar was not, and they fought together, Kira and Shinn might have communicated with each other. Minerva and Archangel could have come together. It's very risky to unite the two against a common enemy. So, unless Dullindal knew for sure that Stellar was in the cockpit, putting the two together would be a very stupid move for him, compromising Minerva and Shinn.

Stellar was the only thing that split them that day. Kira and Shinn were working together very well. Shinn slashed Destroy and was concentrating on it. Freedom was taking on Neo, while giving pressure to Destroy as well. It's much like putting Athrun and Kira together, protecting Orb. They ended up talking at the end, which compromised Athrun and turned him.

Your posts sounds very angry/irritated. It's funny to read. :amuse I hope you aren't taking everything I say seriously.

[Laughing@you]

Damn!! I'm gonna need to start taking fast reading lessons to keep up cuz...you guys/girls are writting full articles of every idea.

[dotWizard]

I apologize if my post sounded very antagonistic towards davidsiaw. I had just come home from a party, so I was slightly intoxicated.

Sorry, david! Good response to my previous rebuttal, though. It's fun having you to debate with. :glomp

[canj5]

Try to imagine if Kira was as bloodthirsty as Shinn. I think in that case, Shinn isn't much of an obstacle to Kira, but since Kira is trying to be a pacifist while Shinn is trying to kill him almost every move, it's more likely that Kira will be overwhelmed. It would be truly memorable to see Kira goes total berserk. I mean berserk like he doesn't care about rationality.

Now what I observed in Seed and Seed Destiny is that when Kira goes SeeD mode and Shinn does it too, they are a lot different from eachother. Kira is calm in the beginning, but when he is cornered he goes completely irrational and that nearly killed him in ep.35. Unlike Kira, Shinn only had only one desire and that was to see Freedom fall. So he used the fact given by Rey to use it on Freedom to destroy him. The plan he thought out was very clever. Now this same plan will not work due to 2 things in the future. The first is Destiny gundam won't be able to detatch in to pieces like Freedom, so if you lose a head and an arm then too bad. Secondly, Kira gains the DRAGOON system, with that outcome seems almost likely what will happen. Shinn is a type of person who is very bad at handling his own emotions, so if he was in same situtation as Kira, he probably would've been dumbfounded and lost the battle in a very short time.

I think it's time to see some angry side of Kira. He is the ultimate coordinator. Hope he becomes more tactful and skillful.

[staradderdragoon]

geezes christ. dotwizard, you make the longest posts i have ever seen. they're really good but way to long. lol. ur comment about everyone being 16+. thats not true. im 15. but right now, i dont see how you guys can still think of a topic to bash kira or shinn on that we havent already done

[Ganj]

Hehe nice. I have to disagree with you though, about the Archangel's becoming a military threat ONLY when provoked. The battles at the Black Sea and the Dardenelles are never provoked them. They came on their own accord.

ZAFT wants to be dominant. That is so true. Kudos for pointing that out. Captain Gladys had hesitated to attack the Archangel, because she knew the enemy had good intentions. But remember. A soldier's loyalty still stands above all else. Even if they are hated for it, and I really admire her for still firing even though she knows it might not be good. But orders are orders.

Shinn's fight against Kira was in many ways fueled by revenge. I agree totally. But it was orders that allowed him to do so. Well... erm... Shinn was ready to battle him indeed.

Kira did underestimate his tenacity. True. No telling if he did realize that Shinn was actually all-out to kill him halfway thru battle and made attempts at his life.

Booby trapping... haha... I didn't see any traps. Small boys usually don't win fights against grown men. No matter how smart they try to get. I like your analogy but it was ineffective.

More like Kira's nuclear reactor got cut off as a result of damage. But its something no one can be sure of so no point arguing about that.

Cunning and foresight? Not sure what you mean by that haha... if you would care to explain ^_^

Kira obviously will not let Shinn off the second time. Lets all pray for a really good fight between them the next time.
Yeah...you're right. :smile-big I guess I got a bit carried away there. I guess I just can't stand Shinn's simple-minded antics. He just whines and whines; forever holding grudges....blah, I wish he'd just grow up a bit. :notrust It is unfortunate of all the things happened to him, but I'd wish he'd stop acting so high and righteous; I mean every one, Kira, Athrun, and so on, has lost much to warfare, yet he goes around with this attitude that his vengence willl correct all wrongs in the universe. He just erks me......far more than anything character I've ever seen really. :amuse

[Ganj]

Hehe nice. I have to disagree with you though, about the Archangel's becoming a military threat ONLY when provoked. The battles at the Black Sea and the Dardenelles are never provoked them. They came on their own accord.

ZAFT wants to be dominant. That is so true. Kudos for pointing that out. Captain Gladys had hesitated to attack the Archangel, because she knew the enemy had good intentions. But remember. A soldier's loyalty still stands above all else. Even if they are hated for it, and I really admire her for still firing even though she knows it might not be good. But orders are orders.

Shinn's fight against Kira was in many ways fueled by revenge. I agree totally. But it was orders that allowed him to do so. Well... erm... Shinn was ready to battle him indeed.

Kira did underestimate his tenacity. True. No telling if he did realize that Shinn was actually all-out to kill him halfway thru battle and made attempts at his life.

Booby trapping... haha... I didn't see any traps. Small boys usually don't win fights against grown men. No matter how smart they try to get. I like your analogy but it was ineffective.

More like Kira's nuclear reactor got cut off as a result of damage. But its something no one can be sure of so no point arguing about that.

Cunning and foresight? Not sure what you mean by that haha... if you would care to explain ^_^

Kira obviously will not let Shinn off the second time. Lets all pray for a really good fight between them the next time.
Yeah...you're right. :smile-big I guess I got a bit carried away there. I guess I just can't stand Shinn's simple-minded antics. He just whines and whines; forever holding grudges....blah, I wish he'd just grow up a bit. :notrust It is unfortunate of all the things happened to him, but I'd wish he'd stop acting so high and righteous; I mean every one, Kira, Athrun, and so on, has lost much to warfare, yet he goes around with this attitude that his vengence willl correct all wrongs in the universe. He just erks me......far more than anything character I've ever seen really. :amuse

But what I meaning by Kira's foresight was how he averted death by shutting off his nuclear reactor at the moment that Shinn struck. Although the scene of him doing this doesnt exists, in the opening scenes of Phase 35 show his hands over the emergency shutdown buttons. I guess I'm reading that, Kira wouldn't win the battle as it was progressing, so he shutdown all systems to Freedom to avoid a nuclear explosion from the resulting strike from the Impulse. I mean looking at the stance the Freedom took at the last moment, seemed rather....inactive, you know what I mean?

[davidsiaw]

Hmm... omg y0u t3h t00k my p0st l1ghtly. D1E... (If I sounded irritated and angry and insulted you sorry bout that really... to dotWizard especially. :) )

Well I guess from dotWizard's last post I realize this is just some big stalemate after all... Since we're not gonna listen to each other there isn't any point in debating this anymore. Pointlessness, that's what it is. Its been fun tho, butting heads with stubbornness haha...

Oh well... Its just an anime only after all. Illogical things happen. But one thing's for sure! Shinn RULES! His win was REAL.

Word guys. peace out.

[Tanon]

*cough*

Kira got owned. :-|

:-p

Predictable tactics will always fall in the end to a well-prepared enemy with vengeance (however misplaced) consuming his mind. I will expand when I return... whenever that may be.

*vanish*

[dotWizard]

Woo. Late night post again. :clap

davidsiaw, yep. We've talked about everything that can be talked about from Episodes 1-35. 15 more episodes to go. Although, as promised, I've given Shinn fans enough grief, so I'm going to argue for Shinn this next week as promised. That will give Kira fans something to do, considering very few of them have posted during the time you and I argued.

[zuhair]

wwaaa i like shinn wat ever it is

[antoine]

I'm looking foward to it dot. XD

[Kiba-kun]

Wowee, dotWizard, davidiaw, I love your posts. Wish I could add to them but there's nothing more to say (and me and Inquisitor and the others have been over half of it already :p), but please try not to be so aggressive, dotWizard! I'm glad you apologized, but try and make sure you control yourself! ^_^ Because frankly, those kind of posts are boring for the rest of us to read, and it detracted from your overall good points.

[3rdStrike]

^HAHA.
Notice how more than half of us who orginally debated ALL ALONG didn't even bother replying...

[dotWizard]

If you have something to say to me, feel free to PM me.

Otherwise, please keep it off the topic. Not really the place. If you post it on public forums, it's hard for me to respond with a "screw you" or whatever, which is an advantage of talking in a pseudo-friendly manner on a general channel.

All this feels like high school drama all over again. Sharp and pointed, but spineless. :amuse

I wasn't going to leave a post like this, since I had hoped people would be mature enough to know better but oh well.

If you have a post knocking me/my posts or a post that is selfless advice, feel free to PM it to me. I don't mind insults or whatever, because the person I am debating and the person I am actually are different, and I can differentiate the two. PMs can be responded to personally, ignored, etc. Posts are hard to respond to personally and cannot be ignored, because everyone can read it.

I guess it's more of a respect thing, and no, this post isn't addressing anyone in particular as a few people have done it, but they've changed their minds after I PMed them. No hard feelings. :wink

[staradderdragoon]

^HAHA.
Notice how more than half of us who orginally debated ALL ALONG didn't even bother replying...

lol. its because there really isnt anything to debate anymore....we've bashed both sides long enough and covered everything

[davidsiaw]

Instead of trying to bash each other, which seems to annoy everyone a lot, let us now talk about the GOOD sides of both Kira and Shinn, how about that? Only good stuff, not more bashing stuff like, "Kira is better than Shinn and he will pwn him if he put his mind to it". Stuff like "Shinn is a very sincere person about his feelings, and I can't help but think what a wonderful person he would be if he was not a soldier."

Perhaps this will clear off some grudges that built up in this debate (not pointing fingers) and everyone is free to state their opinion about whatever (This is a discussion after all, why tell them off?). If you don't like it, I guess its good if you simply ignore it. ^_^ how bout that?

I'll start by saying something good about Kira since I'm a Shinn fan.

Kira's seriously been helping Calgalli out in every way possible to try to stop Orb from fighting, and to make them realize their treaty with the EA is against the very ideals of the country itself. It also gives us more chances to see Kira's trademark 5 laser fire pose

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b272/davesiaw/fd-6.jpg

I just wish they could make more views when kira does that, or variations on when he blazes every single gun Freedom has. I think it would be uber cool ^^.

[staradderdragoon]

i agree with you on the variations. that sequence has been done too many times it has gotten old.....but complimenting shinn and kira? even me, a kira fan, i dont see how i can do that....kira has been pretty lame, just owning wherver he goes, but then getting owned by shinn. shinn seemed really gay in 35, when he was lik "OMG I GOT A NEW SUIT WOOHOOO!!!!!" ur idea would instead, not make this a debate....

[Kiba-kun]

Yesh! Complimenting for a while makes a nice change.

Kirakirakira....I do respect his ideals. I think his heart is very much in the right place: while I might not agree with his methods, he's got the right ideas and the guts to carry them through, which I respect. He's also an amazing pilot - whether that's through sheer skill and practise or whether it comes naturally because he's the ultimate coordinator is up in the air. And finally - there's no denying he's very pretty. XD

Edit: Just had to say how AWESOME davidiaw's Dearka avatar is. I love him too. XD

[antoine]

lol ya, I noticed david's avatar too, es magnifique.

stradder, the tension seems to have eased a bit, so cheer up XD

hmmm I, a Kira fan, complementing Shinn...

Shinn is obviously a good pilot, and he has a sense of right and wrong. He is loyalty, I could say, is unquestionable.

I like the Impulse scene where he dodges in a zig-zag patter then chops a mobile suit in half, though it's been used a lot like freedom's scenes.

[staradderdragoon]

david, ur avatar owns. lol. i agree, shinn is an exceptional pilot. i think the scenes wher he gets all pissed off in impulse with sword impulse and he goes like AHHHH, and his eyes become all huge and evil, i think thats awesome...

[Ganj]

Hmm... omg y0u t3h t00k my p0st l1ghtly. D1E... (If I sounded irritated and angry and insulted you sorry bout that really... to dotWizard especially. :) )

Well I guess from dotWizard's last post I realize this is just some big stalemate after all... Since we're not gonna listen to each other there isn't any point in debating this anymore. Pointlessness, that's what it is. Its been fun tho, butting heads with stubbornness haha...

Oh well... Its just an anime only after all. Illogical things happen. But one thing's for sure! Shinn RULES! His win was REAL.

Word guys. peace out.
Are you kidding? I kinda like your seriousness...makes for good debates. And no offense taken. You were just making a point, and besides you didn't insult me directly so....

[Kira Yamato]

I never imagined there would be such debate over shin versus kira. Granted I am a kira fan but I don't have anything against shin. And he's a pretty good pilot, but It's obvious that Kira will somehow come out on top at the very end, If I'm following the story. When I first saw destiny I thought the focus would be more on Shin, but it's shifted towards AA crew and we don't see as much in-depth character development as we would have thought.

[Jujubie]

I'm just curious. For all you Shinn-fans, who likes the idea of Shinn doing an Anakin and who doesn't? Mindless's post of a commercial pic after ep 36 makes me wonder.

[antoine]

Just a random comment...
I just started laughing when Dullindal, when talking about Kira, said, "If we were to put him in a MS right now, no one would match him," and Shinn got angry.

[Ganj]

I'm just curious. For all you Shinn-fans, who likes the idea of Shinn doing an Anakin and who doesn't? Mindless's post of a commercial pic after ep 36 makes me wonder.
That would VERY interesting. It would suit his mindset perfectly.

[3rdStrike]

Just a random comment...
I just started laughing when Dullindal, when talking about Kira, said, "If we were to put him in a MS right now, no one would match him," and Shinn got angry.

I know!!! HAHA. It was funny.
It's like as if Dullindal is hinting that no matter how hard Shinn works, he'll never reach the level of Kira.

But my, ep 36 was good. I mean Athrun finally have some sense in him...

[st1_twisted]

this is actually an interesting topic you guys have here. i agree with almost everyone here. everything you say cannot be denied about shinn or with kira.

i side with shinn better than kira. kira may be the ultimate coordinator and everything but seriously saying, if he is so great. why in the world couldn't he match up with shinn. shinn character is more involved in with what people have to go through when someone they love passes away. come on, parents and a little sister right there in front of you complete mutilated. its like showing sympathy to kira when he and athrun fought. but you don't show sympathy to another person who has lost everything. which is more painful.

the thing about destroy and freedom, thats another good point. if kira only aims at specific parts of mobile suits, why couldn't he do that against destroy. he has done that mostly against all mobile suits and yet he did for destroy. see i have seen freedom use his light saber, spin like a top and cut off the arms and head of other mobile suits. but against destroy he just kept firing his laser and missiles at destroy even though he can see it clearly not doing any affect to destroy. i say he caused more damaged to his surroundings.

on another note, shinn made an opening on destroy, near the cockpit if i'm not mistaken. if kira is all that, why didn't he do that from the start while knowing his laser are not causing any affect on destroy. common sense is what kira actually needed.

but don't get me wrong kira rocks, i just like shinn more. cause quite frankly i'm sick and tired of characters that are not tormented or even know what pain truly is. shinn is a character that gives an anime more spine, power, pain, tragedy and justification of an action.

don't you agree kiba-kun?

i'll just want you guys and girls to know, that this series in my opinion just shows the true meaning of losing someone and the justification of that action.they actually show true maturity, kira and shinn. but i mean who is actually right in this whole thing. i say shinn. kira, is the ultimate coordinator but none of his knowledge is being used by him.

ultimately shinn is an overwheming being to show people, what people endure during times of pain and struggle and how it eats someone inside to lose someone they love.

kira doesn't exactly know how it is to truly lose someone. i mean fllay was the worst character and the mostly cowardly, spineless and pathtic human being to start with. to fall in love with her is just a shame. even though kira did get some from her. but it was so obvious what her intentions were. to make kira feel that way, i think lacus should die just to prove my point.

[ElelloN]

i side with shinn better than kira. kira may be the ultimate coordinator and everything but seriously saying, if he is so great. why in the world couldn't he match up with shinn. shinn character is more involved in with what people have to go through when someone they love passes away. come on, parents and a little sister right there in front of you complete mutilated. its like showing sympathy to kira when he and athrun fought. but you don't show sympathy to another person who has lost everything. which is more painful.
Yeah, we all agree that Shinn has had a miserable experience, but that dont give him the right to act like God. Shinn judges people, trying to decide who will live and who will die.

the thing about destroy and freedom, thats another good point. if kira only aims at specific parts of mobile suits, why couldn't he do that against destroy. he has done that mostly against all mobile suits and yet he did for destroy. see i have seen freedom use his light saber, spin like a top and cut off the arms and head of other mobile suits. but against destroy he just kept firing his laser and missiles at destroy even though he can see it clearly not doing any affect to destroy. i say he caused more damaged to his surroundings.
You dont attack an enemy without knowledge of what your enemy is capable of, this is basic military knowledge. In battle knowledge can equal alot of power, and it is just this Shinn proved in the Impulse vs. Freedom fight.

on another note, shinn made an opening on destroy, near the cockpit if i'm not mistaken. if kira is all that, why didn't he do that from the start while knowing his laser are not causing any affect on destroy. common sense is what kira actually needed.
Kira was testing what Destroy was capable of, eventually he would have disabled Destroy in some way.


but don't get me wrong kira rocks, i just like shinn more. cause quite frankly i'm sick and tired of characters that are not tormented or even know what pain truly is. shinn is a character that gives an anime more spine, power, pain, tragedy and justification of an action.
Shinn is something I haven't seen in an anime main character yet. It was interesting for quite a while, now Im just starting to get annoyed with him

i'll just want you guys and girls to know, that this series in my opinion just shows the true meaning of losing someone and the justification of that action.they actually show true maturity, kira and shinn. but i mean who is actually right in this whole thing. i say shinn. kira, is the ultimate coordinator but none of his knowledge is being used by him.
Shinn is the epithome of the kill someone because someone kill someone else, (In this case Kira killed Stellar while trying to disable Destroy, and Shinn wants to kill Kira because of that.) As we all learned in SEED, that this philosophy is wrong.

ultimately shinn is an overwheming being to show people, what people endure during times of pain and struggle and how it eats someone inside to lose someone they love.
I think that most people will react similar to Shinn if they lose something close to them, but only for a short while. Most people will remember that killing the killer will not bring the killed back.

kira doesn't exactly know how it is to truly lose someone. i mean fllay was the worst character and the mostly cowardly, spineless and pathtic human being to start with. to fall in love with her is just a shame. even though kira did get some from her. but it was so obvious what her intentions were. to make kira feel that way, i think lacus should die just to prove my point.
It was obvious to us, the viewers what Fllay was afeter. We often get another look at what people think that isn't so obvious to people inside the situation.

[antoine]

Don't forget...

Kira knows that for him to exist, countless numbers of who could possibly have been his siblings were sacrificed.

[steven]

shinns a poon. im so tired of his incessant whinning. an i really dont like how hes all like "omg he killed stella, so now i gottakill him" pretty lame.

he also needs to get over not like ORBS royal family. he makes it seem like its their fault his family died.

[Chopstickx]

^ dude...you needa go through some of the posts here first before you start going off like that D:

[steven]

yea i know i probably should..but seriously..when theres 15 pages...it makes a guy not wanna go thru them all

[Chopstickx]

hmm...true, true. that guy Kiba-kun's a Shinn fan that had some good points though :O

lol yes, i am up-to-date with this debate. i just dont post b/c i dont wanna look stupid with all these smart defenders around >_>

[Kiba-kun]

Well, I never thought it would happen to me; you never do.

Losing someone close to me has given me a different perspective on this whole debate. Let me say first that Shinn is still my favourite character - he makes the series interesting, and I do very much identify with how he felt. But, for me at least, losing someone like that has, for want of a better way of putting it, made me a Kira.

All I want to do now is to make things better, and I will work to achieve that. It feels right to do so. Anger does not come to me here, only peace and a love for the lost and those he touched.

So while I love Shinn to pieces, and I'll still defend him, I'm really identifying with Kira right now. It's strange, really.

I liked your points, st1_twisted. ^_^

[3rdStrike]

Agree.

As much as I dislike Shinn, I think Shinn really does make DESTINY interesting. His character is in between the good and the bad. Still now, at this point, he still can make a big change for the ending of DESTINY, I guess that's why we get to see him first in the OP. First off, he still has the choice of being a slave for Dullindal but Shinn may also turn his back against Dullindal. After all, Shinn was (soon to be) reluctant about shooting down Athrun until Rey's luring words caught Shinn's ears.

[Chopstickx]

i find his character interesting also. it wouldnt be fun if everyone was all happy-happy and friends with each other. and Shinn's character/attitude twists it around and stuff :O

[staradderdragoon]

hmm...true, true. that guy Kiba-kun's a Shinn fan that had some good points though :O

lol yes, i am up-to-date with this debate. i just dont post b/c i dont wanna look stupid with all these smart defenders around >_>

and jikes had some pretty good points too....lol. i dont post because i cant figure out what the shinn fans are defending....

[st1_twisted]

hey guys, sorry for not posting earlier. i just got back from the hospital.

its funny about debates epecially this one, cause we have no statistics or any information that can both back up whose better between shinn and kira. but lets do it like this. how about we all agree that kira and shinn are just great lead characters. cause between the 2 i think the animators are trying to contradict each other. trying to show both sides of how people think.

don't you agree? i think thats how its going so far, but i still love both seeds. they are awesome..

heres a thought, who do you guys think is the true lead character in GSD shinn or kira.

[Chillin]

They both are, I really don't think one is the lead over the other. I actually think Shinn's true wish and ideals are similar to Kira, but the fact that he is being manipulated doesn't make this look to be the case. Dullindal has changed his ideals to be something of a different nature that he is still not aware of.

[Jujubie]

I think Shinn's ideals were set when his family died by either Kira or a druggie. Dullindal just made it clearer to the world and Freedom. Anyways...

I just watched eps 33-36! BAH! Shinn is so..so! so! gRR... Although it is war, he used Kira's only weakness: Kira does not kill. Man, if Kira was focused on the battle with no distractions, he could've beaten Shinn (although it would've been a hard battle with Shinn's determination). Even Dullindal admits that Kira is the ultimate fighter. I hope Kira murders him! But that won't happen. *sigh* I don't even think Shinn will stay in the dark side. He's full of confusion from Athrun. Confusion leads to choices unlike narrowness. And choices lead to good decisions maybe. Unless there is another Shinn has another tragedy to refuel his anger (wow I hope his well of anger is not bottomless, but it might be so what you Shinn fans think?), he will follow the Gundam formula and go to the light.

[st1_twisted]

i think he may go to the light...cause i was hoping that shinn,kira and athrun fight side by side in the end. that would be cool actually. to see the 3 of them make one last stand just like in seed.

jujubie, i don't think shinn's anger is bottomless. i could say depression brings out the worse of people especially that of shinn. so lets not think of it that way..hehe. but don't you guys think that shinn and kira would make a great combo in the last fight...even though there is bad blood between kira and shinn.

[antoine]

Although I personally think that hell will freeze over when Shinn and Kira work together, it's still possible.

[Chillin]

I don't know, I think the last ending song's title "You are Similar to Me" actually may have relevance to the story.

[staradderdragoon]

i thought the ending song was wings of words or something like that. when did it change?

[Chopstickx]

^ Wing of Words is the OP :O ED is See-Saw

[staradderdragoon]

oh stupid of me. so wing of words is by chemistry. and u r similar to me is by see-saw right? im so out of it....

[Jujubie]

Isn't talking about the songs spam...

Anyways, I actually do think Shinn will go to the good side because (1) it'd be boring if Shinn's anger-well is bottomless (unless it is refueled by another tragedy) and (2) Fukuda doesn't have the guts to have a Darth Shinn. Actually, I forgot about my second reason lol. I'll edit later

[ssouske]

well... it is spam considering that this is the shin vs kira debate thread... :amuse

[Freedom rulez]

Kira>>>>Shinn, i mean Kira >>>> ALL in GSD according to the Fukuda and Gills theory.

Don't flame me Shinns fans..I don't like Shinn because he's so arrogant and just a hypocrite. Getting mad at Kira over Stellar's death was pretty much the last straw for me. Actually Kira didn't kill Stella. The explosions in her cockpit did, which was already really badly damaged from SHINN'S slash. But aside from that, anti-hero is not just someone without heroic qualities. Anti-heroes actually have very heroic qualities, they just prefer to work alone since they don't want to be hindered by morals about collateral damage or the like. EG Magus in Chrono Trigger is an anti-hero. Magus wanted to destroy the big monster Lavos by summoning it himself, but he was also thrust in the middle of a war between humans and mystics (was it mystics, I forget...they were these green critters anyhow) and so had to keep under cover. But the fact was, he had cunning and he did what he needed to do. Shinn's just a regular everyday soldier on the Minerva, albeit a narcisisst with too much power and not enough brains.

Stellar was a complete waste of oxygen who just went around destroying everything because she was told to, she needed to be put out of everyone's misery. If I have a girlfriend who just starts killing people because "Dying is scary" then I'm going to let the police come do whatever they have to do to take her down. Shinn on the other hand would like to allow her killing spree to continue because she reminds him of his family and shes suffered blah blah blah. Idiocy like that doesn't make for likeable characters.

i believe that S-Freedom is stronger than Destiny. What does Destiny have? let see. Palm cannon..beam wings. those are the main weapons..other weapons are just a normal ones. as for S-Freedom. 8 Dragoons, 2 high energy beam rifles which can dock together, chest cannon(nothing much about it) a HIDDEN weapon. still don't know what it is..there are some rumors that S-Freedom indeed has its own Wings of Light. i think its possible. I think the WOL are only activateable after the DRAGOONs have been launched...but looks like the Strike Freedom has everything going for it, besides the fuglyness with the stupid callidus cannon...can't wait to see the ownage. They say S-Freedom "hides" the power to mirror Destiny. I say it's WoL...because after it launches its dragoons, it "unhides" that power and turns on the wings of light! With Kiras skills. S-Freedom is undefeatable.

[me_is_david]

ah...no love for Shinn and Stellar from you =(

I can see us disagreeing in the future ^_^
Look forward to it..thought I suck ass at debates

ask around..I'm probably the biggest Stellar fan here
:thumbs

I know this is spam, I don't care... lol
It's like one of my only spam posts :P

edit: lol I just clicked you "squads" ... like 20 banners came out lol, I was like good god...
(this is such a spamming post)

[Freedom rulez]

lol..i'm in a lots of squads..i do like Stellar a lot. obviously not as much as i like Lacus..Stellar definately would be my second choise. the only thing i hate about Shinn is his attitude. other than that..he is Ok.

[Kira Yamato]

As you obviously, see I am truly unbias in this matter :ninja

The way the series is shaping up, it seems that Shinn is coming up on the wrong side, and will probably realize the error of his ways atone for his transgressions at the end of the series. I don't blame him for the way he feels but the Chairman's words are totally warping him and if he continue following him, no good will come from it.

[staradderdragoon]

i really think that he has to change if he still wants lunamaria to stay with him....

one thing, kira yamato, how did u change ur name? wasnt it majinveggito before?

[Chopstickx]

^ not necessarily. Luna might just like the way he is, since she's been around himsince the academy days then yea, she knows his attitude and stuff.

and im guessing majinveggito PMed a s/mod for a request and yea. at least thats how i got my username changed.

[staradderdragoon]

i dont know. would you really want to go out with a guy who killed ur sibling? could you really forgive him?

[me_is_david]

This was from a post in the GSD3 thread but, so that it won't start anyhting I moved it here.

Kira vs Shinn, Shinn only won because Kira not aiming for cockpit... and that is a fact shinn lovers...

Okay...I just HAVE to say this. Not trying to offend just you, but since you brought that up I must disagree with that.

I don't believe that, we know how good Kira is right?
He is so good he could disable a suit right away.
The fact is he didn't, Shinn didn't only win because Kira wasn't intending to kill him.
I say tahts bs, Kira should have disabled the suit just like he has all the other times.
But he didn't, why? Because he couldn't.
Each time he tried Impulse dodged it, so I don't think Kira lost just because he wasn't aiming for the cockpit.
True, he would have beaten him if he intended to kill. But what, all he was doing was running away, trying to avoid the fight and help AA.

But all the other times he has done that he easily disabled the suit.
Shinn was smart, he used Kira's weakness against him and it cost him.
Seriously, don't you think if Kira wanted to he could have disabled Impulse.
He has disabled many more pilots and Impulse many times already.
To me, he tried and failed. Look at him, he was surprised at practically every single move Impulse made because he couldn't believe that Impulse could dodge his attacks so well.

and you know what? Kira did aim for the cockpit once. Maybe that was just for fanservice but they still made him aim there.
True he could have moved just like he did with Yzak but it didn't look like he was going to.
And what happened? Impulse spilt then owned the fuk out of Freedom.

Thats all I have to say now, I am not saying Shinn is better, but I'm saying even if Kira was aiming to kill. He probably couldn't.
We have seen him get POed and go help AA right away when its in trouble. Why oculdn't he do that? We probably won't ever know.

And that is my defense for Shinn, about that fight.
If you think I'm wrong come debate, I'll try to hold my own. ^_^

[Freija]

Okay...I just HAVE to say this. Not intending to offend you, but I must disagree with that.

I don't believe that, we know how good Kira is right?
He is so good he could disable a suit right away.
The fact is he didn't, Shinn didn't only win because Kira wasn't intending to kill him.
I say tahts bs, Kira should have disabled the suit just like he has all the other times.
But he didn't, why? Because he couldn't.
Each time he tried Impulse dodged it, so I don't think Kira lost just because he wasn't aiming for the cockpit.
True, he would have beaten him if he intended to kill. But what, all he was doing was running away, trying to avoid the fight and help AA.

But all the other times he has done that he easily disabled the suit.
Shinn was smart, he used Kira's weakness against him and it cost him.
Seriously, don't you think if Kira wanted to he could have disabled Impulse.
He has disabled many more pilots and Impulse many times already.
To me, he tried and failed. Look at him, he was surprised at practically every single move Impulse made because he couldn't believe that Impulse could dodge his attacks so well.

and you know what? Kira did aim for the cockpit once. Maybe that was just for fanservice but they still made him aim there.
True he could have moved just like he did with Yzak but it didn't look like he was going to.
And what happened? Impulse spilt then owned the fuk out of Freedom.

Thats all I have to say now, I am not saying Shinn is better, but I'm saying even if Kira was aiming to kill. He probably couldn't.
We have seen him get POed and go help AA right away when its in trouble. Why oculdn't he do that? We probably won't ever know.

And that is my defense for Shinn, about that fight.
If you think I'm wrong come debate, I'll try to hold my own. ^_^
he didn't aim for the cockpit he made the same movement he did vs Yzak in the ep when we first saw Freedom fight, he cuts below the cockpit to take out the legs of it....

and what i mean is, if Kira had aimed at the cockpit he wouldn't have the weakness Shinn used, i surely agree on Shinns skills, and everything but consider this Freedom vs Impulse... Speed...strength...Equip....power
all these Freedom > Impulse + Kira is infact a better pilot stated by Gil, saying he would have no rival...

Shinn knew where Kira shot/slashed even then Kira took some hits on Shinn, yes Kira was suprised and said "How is this possible" wich is the normal way to think if someone reads your movement ? isn't it ?

[staradderdragoon]

someone just say it. kira totally owns everybody. the only reason he lost was because he didnt want to kill shinn and was like, wtf? why is this fag attacking me for no reason? hes not ultimate coordinator for nothing....(wait, did i say that right?)

[me_is_david]

someone just say it. kira totally owns everybody. the only reason he lost was because he didnt want to kill shinn and was like, wtf? why is this fag attacking me for no reason? hes not ultimate coordinator for nothing....(wait, did i say that right?)

Oh God. Please tell me you're being sarcastic.
I can see it now, I will be labeled as one of the idiots of this forum. Lol.
Hopefully I won't just because I'm going against almost everyone.
Come on, Shinn fans. Help me out. =)

But I am just not going to reply to that.
Its the exact same statement I replied to except this one is just more ...I duno.

[Freija]

no not really... its all shown and said ^_^ Kira is like the ultimate for something (although Ultimate Coordinator doenst mean Ultimate soldier)...

edit: also if he aimed for the cockpit at that time why did the Impulse split in the middle as we saw the sabre went exactly for the middle (you can watch if you want) meaning he aimed below the cockpit once again...

Oh God. Please tell me you're being sarcastic.
I can see it now, I will be labeled as one of the idiots of this forum. Lol.
Hopefully I won't just because I'm going against almost everyone.
Come on, Shinn fans. Help me out. =)

But I am just not going to reply to that.
Its the exact same statement I replied to except this one is just more ...I duno.
i don't see you as an idiot, infact i see your points and i think they are reasonable, but you must accept some facts and hints given by the story....that actually makes your favorite character loose in power :sad (reminds me of Itachi and Akatsuki leader T_T WHY ITACHI YOU MUST OVERPOWER HIM)....infact my favorite in GS was Yzak (well that changed after awhile though, got bored of all KUSOOOOOOO NANDE KUSOOOOOOO) and i accepted that Kira > Yzak.

[me_is_david]

Haha I know.
I will admit Shinn will not beat Kira.
But alot of people make it sound like Shinn is nothing.
IMO, at the moment Shinn > Athrun.
It irritates me how low they think of Shinn just because they don't like his attitude.

Part of my Kira dislike was because of so much Kira fanboyism on other forums.
I would disagree and I would get critisized like crazy.
They would say stuff like OMG KIRA IS THE B3ST!!!!!111!! and shit like that lol
I can safely say, some fanboyism added to my dislike because those idiots don't give me reasonable comments. They just say Kira is the ebst he owns all and everyone else sucks ass.
Which is why I come to this forum even if its a Naruto forum. I post in the Gundam forum lol.
But I know I know, not all Kira fans are like that but ohwell..too late.
I probably won't dislike him more than I do now. But I'm certain I won't love him alot. He might get on my list of cool characters like he was before episode 20 something of Destiny ^_^.

Lol, ont he sidenote I love Itachi. But people bash on him like none other and it irritates me as well.
He is still badass, even if he isn't the strongest.
All of Akatsuki are badass lol. None of them suck so far.
Althouhg people bash on Kisame too -_-, just because Deidara and Sasori are showing they are a little better than Itachi and Kisame.

[Freija]

Haha I know.
I will admit Shinn will not beat Kira.
But alot of people make it sound like Shinn is nothing.
IMO, at the moment Shinn > Athrun.
It irritates me how low they think of Shinn just because they don't like his attitude.

Part of my Kira dislike was because of so much Kira fanboyism on other forums.
I would disagree and I would get critisized like crazy.
They would say stuff like OMG KIRA IS THE B3ST!!!!!111!! and shit like that lol
I can safely say, some fanboyism added to my dislike because those idiots don't give me reasonable comments. They just say Kira is the ebst he owns all and everyone else sucks ass.
Which is why I come to this forum even if its a Naruto forum. I post in the Gundam forum lol.
But I know I know, not all Kira fans are like that but ohwell..too late.
I probably won't dislike him more than I do now. But I'm certain I won't love him alot. He might get on my list of cool characters like he was before episode 20 something of Destiny ^_^.

Lol, ont he sidenote I love Itachi. But people bash on him like none other and it irritates me as well.
He is still badass, even if he isn't the strongest.
then we are agreed on point number 1.. Kira vs Shinn=Kira wins, and atm Shinn > Athrun although that will probably change when he gets I justice, its just destined to happen, but at the end i think all three will be kinda equal...

2.i also hate people saying characters are OMFG TEH BEWSTASDASDA etc without giving base for it...

and as for the sidenote, Itachi is probably the most underestimated character in entire Naruto serie, i mean everyone thinks every new villain > Itachi.... well if you wanna talk about Itachi thingy pm me... well im off to bed nighty night.

[Chillin]

Part of my Kira dislike was because of so much Kira fanboyism on other forums.
I would disagree and I would get critisized like crazy.
They would say stuff like OMG KIRA IS THE B3ST!!!!!111!! and shit like that lol
I can safely say, some fanboyism added to my dislike because those idiots don't give me reasonable comments. They just say Kira is the ebst he owns all and everyone else sucks ass.

Lately this is exactly what has kept me from liking Shinn. It used to be that Shinn was very much disliked, but lately I would say his "fanboyism" is almost equal to Kira's. I just want to dispel this myth that Shinn has no supporters, because recently he's had a lot of fanatics on his side. It used to be I loved to hate Shinn, now I'm trying to like him, but it's hard when people keep downing Kira and other characters I like while giving that dark nutcase all the praise in the world.

[Freija]

Lately this is exactly what has kept me from liking Shinn. It used to be that Shinn was very much disliked, but lately I would say his "fanboyism" is almost equal to Kira's. I just want to dispel this myth that Shinn has no supporters, because recently he's had a lot of fanatics on his side. It used to be I loved to hate Shinn, now I'm trying to like him, but it's hard when people keep downing Kira and other characters I like while giving that dark nutcase all the praise in the world.
agreeeeeeeeeeeeee on all that *reps*

[me_is_david]

Lol..I hope I'm not one of the people that cause you dislike Shinn. ^_^;;

All I'm doing is trying to defend Shinn, although most of the times its requires me to talk about Kira sometimes.
But hey thats how things go.
I'll probably start to like Kira now, depending on his actions.
I don't think he'll do anything else to irritate me, I mean Stellar was like the ultimate thing any character could have done to cause me to dislike them.

If I'm being a Shinn fanboy in my arguements then feel free to let me know lol.
I'll try to tone it down ^_^
I just want people to understand stuff from Shinn's point of view. I do, which is why I like him.
I understand practically why he does what he does.
So I don't blame him. But yay I'm proud to say I've always supported Shinn every since Destiny started.
But yeah, I just don't like how Shinn is always looked down on when he is more than that.
But can't help it...its how it goes with these types of things :laugh

[Freedom rulez]

KIRA>>SHINN>>ATHRUN(official)

there is noway, Shinn could beat the Ultimate Coordinator. UC is not just a word. Kira is the "ultimate coordinator" since he was born from an artifical womb and came out exactly as he was designed. he grew up a a regular kid and did not have military training. kira has the best possible gene combination (near perfect) but genes cant change ones personality as much as upbringing and experience can. he was designed to be more adaptive, smarter, stronger, etc.

I kept hearing kira is the Ultimate Coordinator only because he came out exactly as he was intended by his parents. But for some reason the people that post these never consider that his Parents might have intended for Kira to be better, stronger, smart, etc. Most parent would want their child to be smarter, stronger, etc, right?

I believe that Kira was desgined with improvements on almost everything, stuff like intelligences, adaptability, strength , etc. he is design to be better than most coordinators if not all. But his own intrest and emotions will play a major factor on what he will be good act. Like he has more potential to do well at most task, but doing how well on that given task will depend on if he has intrest for it. its possible that Kira's parents intended him to a smart engineer, which he is, given what little we saw of Heliopolis. His piloting abilities of course formidable, but by no means 'supreme'. In short, if someone went back to Hibiki's artificial womb, and created another child with the intention of creating the 'ultimate Gundam pilot' it would be possible for this child's piloting abilities to be superior to Kira's. This would be contrary to the misconception that Kira is indeed 'supreme' in his piloting abilities as well.
The "Ultimate" here , btw, means that the child is born with the spects exactly same as which are intended/designed. If a child happens to be born from a natural mother's womb but experience no changes from his/her designed genetic traits, he/she is still considered an ultimate coordinator. But that probability is zero because of the effects the natural mother's womb could imposed to the embryo. So the only way to prevent such genetic alteration is to have that embryo grow in an artificial womb. But as we have seen, Kira's many siblings died (maybe due to the instability of those artificial wombs). And at last, with further research and development of technology done by Kira's real parents, Kira is born as a successful outcome.

Using a Artifical Womb is consider a DIFFERENT WAY than the norm. And in the process since there was lots of failures, he must made many adjustment on many different things, what works and what not, if they didn't work he'll have to make it work or work around it, that would most likely even include redesign a child in different ways. Example, He make the Child stronger, and it's body more adaptive to living condictions so it would be able to grow and survive in the Artifical Womb. And in that process he would most likey find other things he might need to improve in order for the child to survive or things that he can improve on the child and would not lower his projects success rate. He seems to have some Newtype ablities as well. well, he might not be the excat Newtype. but he is the Ultimate Coordinator with Newtype abilities. According to the Gillberts theory. KIRA>>>ALL

[O-ushi]

Sheesh, I understand that this is a Shinn Vs Kira thread, but Im confused as to what exactly is everyone arguing about Shinn and Kira :sweatdrop

Anyhows this is my take on the whole situation.
Shinn beat Kira because after all the analysing that Shinn did on Kira, he became too predictable and he totally underestimated Shinn right untill the end, even about that bit where Kira was "aiming" for the cockpit when Impulse splilt, he never was aiming for the cockpit, thats just part of Kira's technique to get a bit of an advantage over his opponent but Shinn knows this technique of Kira's through all his analysis of Freedom's battle footage and amazingly took advantage of this techniques by spillting in half surprising Kira and destroyed Freedoms wings.

There next fight should be interesting though, its possible that Shinn will think that Kira isnt the one piloting S-Freedom since he thinks that Kira was vaporised, hopefully Kira would have made changes to his fighting style because Shinn knows how Kira fights, because if he doesnt, then even though S-Freedom is more powerfull than Destiny whats the point if your opponent knows what youre going to do?

[Chillin]

Lol..I hope I'm not one of the people that cause you dislike Shinn. ^_^;;

All I'm doing is trying to defend Shinn, although most of the times its requires me to talk about Kira sometimes.
But hey thats how things go.
I'll probably start to like Kira now, depending on his actions.
I don't think he'll do anything else to irritate me, I mean Stellar was like the ultimate thing any character could have done to cause me to dislike them.

If I'm being a Shinn fanboy in my arguements then feel free to let me know lol.
I'll try to tone it down ^_^
I just want people to understand stuff from Shinn's point of view. I do, which is why I like him.
I understand practically why he does what he does.
So I don't blame him. But yay I'm proud to say I've always supported Shinn every since Destiny started.
But yeah, I just don't like how Shinn is always looked down on when he is more than that.
But can't help it...its how it goes with these types of things :laugh


If anything I just know what you mean when you say you can dislike a character because of that. Lately I've seen that even though Shinn has steered the wrong way, it's really not his fault. It's Dullindal's fault for twisting Shinn's ideals into something they are not. I mean I can't say that any blame shouldn't fall on him, but mostly it isn't his fault. Like I said earlier, I hope Kira can bring him back on track (probably through an ass whooping), and he, Kira, and Athrun can all hang out when the war is over.

[Jujubie]

God damn i can't believe it's official that Shinn > Athrun. Cmon, Shinn is a rookie ace much like Athrun, but Athrun has more experience. tsk tsk tsk athrun.

Anyways, if Shinn's ideals right now are totally polluted by Dullindal, what are his real ideals? Because I am pretty sure his ideals were set when Freedom misfired and killed his family. Before then he was prolly pretty happy go-lucky without any knowledge of the real world. So he had no ideals back then because he had not met the darker truths of life. Then Boom! Family dead and drearier thoughts begin. Then his ideals are kill orb and false words. All Dullindal did was give him the means to make his desires happen. In no way am I saying that Shinn is not affected by Dullindal at all because he is a freaking puppet. I am just saying that Shinn's ideals right now are his real ones (just extremed). If somebody disagrees with me please tell me what Shinn's real ideals are then because I can't think of any. All he does is say "protect, protect, protect" by means of confusion, anger and sorrow.

[me_is_david]

Shinn..I duno what his ideals are.
To bring peace by elimating anyone that he is told is in the way.
He is a puppet, Athrun almost got him but Rey came in and convinced Shinn.
Then Shinn basically snapped because he was like "I'll never again...." then he thinks about Stellar and Mayu.
Basically I think he was going to say he'll never lose the ones he loves again.

So he stabbed Athrun thinking he would bring more chaos into his life.
But yeah, I think he just wants to have some peace at this time. But can't because everyone keeps dying on him and people keep disturbing his peace.
Its his own way of bringing peace.

He is an emotional wreck at this time, once he snaps there is no telling what he will do. But once he calms down he realizes what he has done. Its a bad thing but perfect for his character. At this point all he wants is peace, but he isn't getting it. Hopefully he will get it, but if Lunamaria dies also. Then man he's just gon be all fucked up.

That might not have made much sesne, but I tried not o make him sound selfish by saying he wants to bring peace for himself so he doesnt have to suffer. Because to me thats seems like its what he's trying to do.
His ideals are like everyone elses: to bring peace. Except his way is to elimate anything that prevents his peace. Which are LOGO's and probably will be told AA are also.

[st1_twisted]

i got nothing against kira and i think shinn is still a better character. if you guys really like watching GSD think of it from his angle. what if GSD came first before seed. you guys would actually be cheering for shinn than kira.

i agree with everyone here about what they are saying about shinn and kira. but what if they switched roles...it would actually be a completely different story.

someone here said that destroy was critically damaged by the slash shinn gave. i got to disagree with you on that cause he didn't. kira killed stellar, ultimate coordinator and all the jazz, he still killed stellar. she fired, he stuck his sword through the barrels and thats what killed her. its like sticking a thick metal poles, in the barrrels of a shotgun. of course its gonna back fire...hehe.

i wonder what would we do in their situation really...i say we all would actually be like shinn, if we were his age. not everyone get to have everything going good for them. what you have known is what you don't want to leave.

if i'm not mistaken, i remember kira getting really ticked off when flay died. so he went for revenge. does that justify kira to kill him. most of you i guess would say "yes" then what about shinn. he went for revenge, logically speaking they were both "acts of man".

[antoine]

Well the fact remains that GSD came after SEED and Reality > What If's, though I feel I would still like Kira.

Everything is dull right now between Shinn/Athrun and basically everything has been debated including what you just posted st1, so what's there to debate about? -.-

[O-ushi]

I understand why everyone believes that Kira is to blame for Stellar death, but Shinn is just as much responsible for Stellar death as is Kira. Stellar's would have died eventually anyway. I totally agree with Shinn's resolve in taking Stellar away from Minerva to avoid being experimented on, but instead of giving her back to the EA, he should have taken her somewhere where she could have died in peace. Shinn, being the way he is, was unable to understand that, or either refused to accept that possibility, which was clearly shown when Athrun explained that possibility to Shinn after that particular incident. Of course these are the things that makes Shinn's character really great. :laugh

[Freija]

i got nothing against kira and i think shinn is still a better character. if you guys really like watching GSD think of it from his angle. what if GSD came first before seed. you guys would actually be cheering for shinn than kira.
well now GS came before SEED and thats reality, deal with it or leave it.
i agree with everyone here about what they are saying about shinn and kira. but what if they switched roles...it would actually be a completely different story.
*trying to imagin Shinn flying Freedom*
someone here said that destroy was critically damaged by the slash shinn gave. i got to disagree with you on that cause he didn't. kira killed stellar, ultimate coordinator and all the jazz, he still killed stellar. she fired, he stuck his sword through the barrels and thats what killed her. its like sticking a thick metal poles, in the barrrels of a shotgun. of course its gonna back fire...hehe.
It's true that Kira dealt the final blow but it would've been destroyed anyway Shinn dealt a critical blow with his beam sabre
i wonder what would we do in their situation really...i say we all would actually be like shinn, if we were his age. not everyone get to have everything going good for them. what you have known is what you don't want to leave.
the point isn't what we would've done, its what they did... and do
if i'm not mistaken, i remember kira getting really ticked off when flay died. so he went for revenge. does that justify kira to kill him. most of you i guess would say "yes" then what about shinn. he went for revenge, logically speaking they were both "acts of man".
Kira never went for revenge, he went SEED... thats kinda diffrent he was already fighting Kluueze when that happend.
and according to GS series REVENGE IS WRONG!!! especially if it is revenge for a psycotic drugged massmurderer...

[me_is_david]

Beh Stellar didn't want to kill. She was told...its that damn EA I telly ou -_-

But yeah, that blow Shinn gave to Destroy would not have killed Stellar.
The blow Kira made did, and thats a fact. Like it or not, even IF Stellar was going to die soon because she was artificially enhanced up the ass. Fact is Kira stabbed Destroy.
To me, he felt like he had no choice. He said "thats enough!" or something like that. Then stabbed Destroy.
I don't blame him for that, in fact I understand perfectly why he would. But in Shinn's eyes, Kira caused the later part of the battle. Which he did.
There probably could've been the slightest chance that Kira would not have aimed for the cannons if he knew what Stellar was to Shinn.
I don't blame him for being angry, as technically, Kira killed Stellar, which just fueled his anger for Freedom.

While in a much more realistic sense, Shinn should be mad at Neo the most.
I know people are gone hate Shinn because oh no...you can't hate Mwu La Fllaga.
Well too bad, if you think about it, Neo was the one who promised, and he broke it. He wasn't even evil, I wanna know why he put Stellar in Destroy. Probably because of orders becasue it seemed he didn't want to. But in Shinn's point of view, he did, he believed that Neo was like a father to Stellar so he didn't think that giving her to Neo would result in her death. He beleived Neo would give her a better life because he thought that Neo was a father figure, since Stellar kept calling his name.
I bet once he see's Neo he'll be like OMG you bastard also.
It seems right now he doesn't think of Neo as the cause for his pain because all he did was let Stellar go pilot.
But I'm sure once he hears or see's him he'll remember and go insane once more.

And AA will be like "=O Mwu, nooo save him" while Shinn is going all out trying to kill him. and Kira will get in the way because he wants to save Mwu. Shinn will say "WTF BITCH GET THE FCUK OUT OF MY WAY"

So if you can't seem to find blame for Kira, then you can always find blame for Neo. But I don;t see how Shinn brought about Stellar's death.
Not because I'm a fan, but logically, he did nothing to bring Stellar's death.
Sure he returned her, but he didn't want her to fight.
Why return her to EA then you ask? Well she would've died anywhere else and he trusted Neo enough to take Stellar away from war. That was his mistake, but what other choice does he have? Like I said, Stellar always called for Neo, so he thought Neo would take care of her. But he was wrong.

EDIT: after watchin it again, I don't think anyone can say Shinn was wrong, if you say Shinn is wrong then *coughKiracough* was wrong too.
I know no one said he was wrong, but if anyone thinks he was. You're wrong.

I also realized, that Shinn shouldn't have believed him, but really think about it. What choice did he have?
He's not going to say I don't believe you and run with Stellar.

[Freija]

Beh Stellar didn't want to kill. She was told...its that damn EA I telly ou -_-

But yeah, that blow Shinn gave to Destroy would not have killed Stellar.
The blow Kira made did, and thats a fact. Like it or not, even IF Stellar was going to die soon because she was artificially enhanced up the ass. Fact is Kira stabbed Destroy.
To me, he felt like he had no choice. He said "thats enough!" or something like that. Then stabbed Destroy.
I don't blame him for that, in fact I understand perfectly why he would. But in Shinn's eyes, Kira caused the later part of the battle. Which he did.
There probably could've been the slightest chance that Kira would not have aimed for the cannons if he knew what Stellar was to Shinn.
I don't blame him for being angry, as technically, Kira killed Stellar, which just fueled his anger for Freedom.

While in a much more realistic sense, Shinn should be mad at Neo the most.
I know people are gone hate Shinn because oh no...you can't hate Mwu La Fllaga.
Well too bad, if you think about it, Neo was the one who promised, and he broke it. He wasn't even evil, I wanna know why he put Stellar in Destroy. Probably because of orders becasue it seemed he didn't want to. But in Shinn's point of view, he did, he believed that Neo was like a father to Stellar so he didn't think that giving her to Neo would result in her death. He beleived Neo would give her a better life because he thought that Neo was a father figure, since Stellar kept calling his name.
I bet once he see's Neo he'll be like OMG you bastard also.
It seems right now he doesn't think of Neo as the cause for his pain because all he did was let Stellar go pilot.
But I'm sure once he hears or see's him he'll remember and go insane once more.

And AA will be like "=O Mwu, nooo save him" while Shinn is going all out trying to kill him. and Kira will get in the way because he wants to save Mwu. Shinn will say "WTF BITCH GET THE FCUK OUT OF MY WAY"

So if you can't seem to find blame for Kira, then you can always find blame for Neo. But I don;t see how Shinn brought about Stellar's death.
Not because I'm a fan, but logically, he did nothing to bring Stellar's death.
Sure he returned her, but he didn't want her to fight.
Why return her to EA then you ask? Well she would've died anywhere else and he trusted Neo enough to take Stellar away from war. That was his mistake, but what other choice does he have? Like I said, Stellar always called for Neo, so he thought Neo would take care of her. But he was wrong.

EDIT: after watchin it again, I don't think anyone can say Shinn was wrong, if you say Shinn is wrong then *coughKiracough* was wrong too.
I know no one said he was wrong, but if anyone thinks he was. You're wrong.

I also realized, that Shinn shouldn't have believed him, but really think about it. What choice did he have?
He's not going to say I don't believe you and run with Stellar.
Once again, it is Kira's fault for killing Stellar yes, and it was Stellars fault that Heine died not Kira's as you tried someother thread... and Shinn was WRONG taking revenge, revenge don't bring anything back thus revenge is the evil path to take in GS serie.

Shinn's blow was critical but not killing, Kira delivered the final blow and he was righteus to do it i mean he can't let any else innocent lives die...

as for Shinn vs Mwu won't happen, probably he'll get pissed at him but at the point he sees him or hear him again he will have changed sides (if he ever does it)..

You can say Shinn was right all you want, but according to the path the serie always took us it is wrong with revenge...

[me_is_david]

bleh...revenge is wrong...lol
it is...but its sounds so ....... gah

Sigh... oh well maybe Kira will do some amazing stuff with S-F and not some stupid crap.
I mean he really can't do anything more for me to not like him haha. He can only go up now and he probably will.

I for one would also like to see Shinn, Kira and Athrun chilin in orb or something like Chillin said, but I doubt it'll happen. I can't see Shinn forgiving Kira =/

[Freija]

bleh...revenge is wrong...lol
it is...but its sounds so ....... gah

Sigh... oh well maybe Kira will do some amazing stuff with S-F and not some stupid crap.
I mean he really can't do anything more for me to not like him haha. He can only go up now and he probably will.

I for one would also like to see Shinn, Kira and Athrun chilin in orb or something like Chillin said, but I doubt it'll happen. I can't see Shinn forgiving Kira =/
yeah, true, and if someone don't say "KIRA KILLED YOUR PARENTS" soon i will freak out, i want to see Shinn's face ^_^ kinda like Sasuke when he heard Itachi was back in town :P, and revenge is wrong....

hmm Shinn Kira Athrun chilling might happen, i mean in the beginning no one would ever thought that Kira, Athrun and Deakka chilling in Orb would happen in GS right ?

[me_is_david]

haha but Dearka wasn't as pissed at Kira as Shinn is.
Athrun can forgive Kira for Nicol. Didn't seem like Dearka was close with anyone except Yzak lol.
But Shinn forgiving Kira...I jus can't see it...possible...but I don't see it.

But bleh...I like Sasuke, I think the road he took was right for him. Just like Shinn's. And now that you know I like Sasuke, you might know why I like Shinn lol
True revenge is wrong but bleh.. they're emotionally wrecked so revenge = good for them at the time

[Freija]

haha but Dearka wasn't as pissed at Kira as Shinn is.
Athrun can forgive Kira for Nicol. Didn't seem like Dearka was close with anyone except Yzak lol.
But Shinn forgiving Kira...I jus can't see it...possible...but I don't see it.

But bleh...I like Sasuke, I think the road he took was right for him. Just like Shinn's. And now that you know I like Sasuke, you might know why I like Shinn lol
True revenge is wrong but bleh.. they're emotionally wrecked so revenge = good for them at the time
so with other words, you like dark, revenge drooling psychos ?, and Nicol was probably more important to Athrun than Stellar ever was, i mean Stellar was just a kinda replacement for Mayu(as Chilling said) while Nicol was one of Athruns best friends comrade and everything. and yet Athrun forgave Kira, and the path both Sasuke and Shinn has choosen is wrong atm...


edit: well can't say my style is diffrent i always have a habit to place my favourite character at a massmurderer...

[me_is_david]

bleh I duno I just like their character.
I understand it so I can't really hate it.
I would do the same thing if something like that happened to me.

It's not right but bleh... who cares lol
revenge drooling yes they are...psycho's they are not =)

I get the feeling you don't like Sasuke :oh

[Freija]

bleh I duno I just like their character.
I understand it so I can't really hate it.
I would do the same thing if something like that happened to me.

It's not right but bleh... who cares lol
revenge drooling yes they are...psycho's they are not =)

I get the feeling you don't like Sasuke :oh
*cough*Sasugay*cough* does that answer it, well lets leave Naruto out of this thread, we are going off topic...

[staradderdragoon]

Oh God. Please tell me you're being sarcastic.
I can see it now, I will be labeled as one of the idiots of this forum. Lol.
Hopefully I won't just because I'm going against almost everyone.
Come on, Shinn fans. Help me out. =)

But I am just not going to reply to that.
Its the exact same statement I replied to except this one is just more ...I duno.

well, ur doing a hell of a job sticking up for shinn....

[davidsiaw]

hehe... Well... Its not like they should'nt stick up for Shinn.
Me Shinn fan too! reps for thisbedavid's valiance

[Jujubie]

I think most people (not me) will like Shinn near the end. By the looks of the new ED, Shinn will work together with Kira and Athrun. He will fight against Rey it seems. He'll prolly do lots of good to make up for the bad. But to me he will still be a stupid brat. I wish Kira was more war monger-ish. That way there'd be no chance against Ultimate Coordinator Kira haha.

Edit: For you Kira-haters, plz tell me why you hate or dislike Kira.

[me_is_david]

Edit: For you Kira-haters, plz tell me why you hate or dislike Kira.

Part of my Kira dislike was because of so much Kira fanboyism on other forums.
I would disagree and I would get critisized like crazy.
They would say stuff like OMG KIRA IS THE B3ST!!!!!111!! and shit like that lol
I can safely say, some fanboyism added to my dislike because those idiots don't give me reasonable comments. They just say Kira is the ebst he owns all and everyone else sucks ass.
Which is why I come to this forum even if its a Naruto forum. I post in the Gundam forum lol.
But I know I know, not all Kira fans are like that but ohwell..too late.
I probably won't dislike him more than I do now. But I'm certain I won't love him alot. He might get on my list of cool characters like he was before episode 20 something of Destiny ^_^.

As you can see I only disliked him recently. I saw him as a guy who was acting like a god. Telling people to stop and expects them to stop.
It was just annoying to me what he and Cagalli were doing during the battles.
But yeah man, I was excitied to see Kira when Junius 7 dropped.
I was like "oh shit Kira." And that scene was one of my favorites of the early episodes of Destiny.
But like I said, on other forums people bash the fuck out of Shinn and make stupid reasons for Kira. So while I defended Shinn, I had to bring out some bad things about Kira. Which then I believed and then it started.

If you like Kira alot you probably don't favor Shinn too much and vice versa.
Though there are people who are indifferent. Most of the Kira/Shinn fans are this way.

[Freija]

As you can see I only disliked him recently. I saw him as a guy who was acting like a god. Telling people to stop and expects them to stop.
It was just annoying to me what he and Cagalli were doing during the battles.
But yeah man, I was excitied to see Kira when Junius 7 dropped.
I was like "oh shit Kira." And that scene was one of my favorites of the early episodes of Destiny.
But like I said, on other forums people bash the fuck out of Shinn and make stupid reasons for Kira. So while I defended Shinn, I had to bring out some bad things about Kira. Which then I believed and then it started.

If you like Kira alot you probably don't favor Shinn too much and vice versa.
Though there are people who are indifferent. Most of the Kira/Shinn fans are this way.
you do realize you're doing the same as the others you talkeda bout ? making shinn stand out as god (he tryes to in anime i got several scenes :D) and you bash Kira as hell sometimes.

[Chillin]

He knows that, he's even admitted he's a fanboy. Admittance is the first step in coping :amuse

[Freija]

He knows that, he's even admitted he's a fanboy. Admittance is the first step in coping :amuse
indeed, isn't the second step like anger and dispair or something... ?

[Chillin]

:laugh You're going to make me break out the psychology lessons? I'm actually thinking the actual first step is shock. For example, if someone dies, you can't believe they are actually dead. You refuse to accept it. Then you admit or accept that it is indeed reality, then you learn to cope with it (first through anger and despair). It's actually been quite a while (ok two years, but I'm not exactly a Psychology major here) since I've read up on that.

This Gundam board is like a learning board as well. I came in yesterday and saw you guys were talking about WW2 death camps and what-not. :amuse

[Freija]

:laugh You're going to make me break out the psychology lessons? I'm actually thinking the actual first step is shock. For example, if someone dies, you can't believe they are actually dead. You refuse to accept it. Then you admit or accept that it is indeed reality, then you learn to cope with it (first through anger and despair). It's actually been quite a while (ok two years, but I'm not exactly a Psychology major here) since I've read up on that.

This Gundam board is like a learning board as well. I came in yesterday and saw you guys were talking about WW2 death camps and what-not. :amuse
hahaha Mindless used his 1337 brain yesterday ^_^ and that step #3 was what i talked about ^_^

[me_is_david]

Yes yes I bash on Kira.
But I said before to defend Shinn sometimes people have to bash Kira.

Just like to defend Kira people might need to bash on Shinn, its the same =P
It's all about who you like, and such. Perhaps we should get a person who is indifferent to both to come in here and debate lol.
Because you can't really get anywhere with people who favor one over the other.

I don't see him as trying to play god though. He might have, but I duno. lol
Wanna give me an example so I know why people think he acts like a god haha.

Oh yeah, and Kira's arrogance aso annoys me. I know I know, Shinn is an idiot too, I don't like that side of him.
But they seem to make Kira out as him thinking he can't be taken down so he goes out and disables every freaking suit and when someone dodges his attacks he is all OMG =O.
That was poor development for Kira IMO, I didn't think he'd be like that haha.
I mean one surprise is fine but damn he was like surprised everytime. Its like he's saying "god dammit why wont you go down"
I know he isn't but thats the impression people and the anime have given me.
quite sad... :sad
I dun really like that part of him, he wasn't like that before. I don't like the way Shinn acts either in battle when he thinks he can take out anything.
So I'm not saying Shinn isn't like that, but I would expect that from Shinn, not Kira.

[Freija]

Yes yes I bash on Kira.
But I said before to defend Shinn sometimes people have to bash Kira.

Just like to defend Kira people might need to bash on Shinn, its the same =P
It's all about who you like, and such. Perhaps we should get a person who is indifferent to both to come in here and debate lol.
Because you can't really get anywhere with people who favor one over the other.

I don't see him as trying to play god though. He might have, but I duno. lol
Wanna give me an example so I know why people think he acts like a god haha.

Oh yeah, and Kira's arrogance aso annoys me. I know I know, Shinn is an idiot too, I don't like that side of him.
But they seem to make Kira out as him thinking he can't be taken down so he goes out and disables every freaking suit and when someone dodges his attacks he is all OMG =O.
That was poor development for Kira IMO, I didn't think he'd be like that haha.
I mean one surprise is fine but damn he was like surprised everytime. Its like he's saying "god dammit why wont you go down"
I know he isn't but thats the impression people and the anime have given me.
quite sad... :sad
I dun really like that part of him, he wasn't like that before. I don't like the way Shinn acts either in battle when he thinks he can take out anything.
So I'm not saying Shinn isn't like that, but I would expect that from Shinn, not Kira.
umm lets just make an example of Shinn "YOU SHOULD DIE AND SHE SHOULD LIVE" thats kinda what he wanted out of Kira vs Shinn and that is playing god to rules who lives and die, then again Athrun vs Shinn "You're wrong" wich makes him playing god by saying everyone is wrong exept him trying to tell everyone that the way he walks is the right way.

give me an example of Kira arrogance please, he always says "ill do what i can do" and that is no arrogance, cause he can do it (reffering to certain occasions)

Shinn is the arrogant one if anyone...

[me_is_david]

like...i duno Kira isn't arrogant but at times to me he was.
Like assuming he can take every suit out there, he might not have thought that.
But they made him out to be like that.
Which I found annoying, because when someone would dodge his attacks he would be all shocked and couldn't believe someone was good enough to do that.

Maybe thats not what he was thinking, but they sure made him out that way to me.

On a side not I just smeared a spider on my wall.. dammit -_- stupid arachnids all up in my library and shit, I've killed like 20 already.

btw haha is that what people say about Shinn playing god..I see
He is like that though but aren't all people?
I think Kira thinks too highly of himself, coming out with Cagalli basically telling everyone too stop.
Thats idiotic, the directors made them sound like a couple of brainless idiots.
And of course most people would go against it and say they directors are stupid making the sound like that. But when I saw it...I saw Cagalli being stupid, sure I know she wants to stop the fighting and all that. But wtf? just asking nicely to stop isn't gon do shit.
If I was Shinn I would've said STFU also and shot at her like he did.
Like I said, Shinn is like, one of the only anime characters I know, I would do the same thing if I was put in their shoes.
Yes, I know its not right and cal me what you want but thats how it is lol.
I'm not an evil kid, I don't like death and killing shit. I'm not a freak, but yeah...you get the point I have to go so I won't type more.

[Freija]

like...i duno Kira isn't arrogant but at times to me he was.
Like assuming he can take every suit out there, he might not have thought that.
But they made him out to be like that.
Which I found annoying, because when someone would dodge his attacks he would be all shocked and couldn't believe someone was good enough to do that.if you weren't arrogant and did take out a whole fucking fleet of mobile suits, and you crushed that mobile suit before, then suddenly he dodges a real fast attack, wouldn't you be suprised ?

Maybe thats not what he was thinking, but they sure made him out that way to me.

On a side not I just smeared a spider on my wall.. dammit -_- stupid arachnids all up in my library and shit, I've killed like 20 already.woooooooooooott ???? spiders are cuties ^_^

[me_is_david]

okay LAST POST lol

I was refering to the earlier episodes.
Like 28 when he first dodged it for the first time while in Blast Impulse.
Kira's face was priceless, never seen him so shocked before lol :laugh

and bleh..I hate spiders.

also yes...I would be surprised too, I know the directors were aiming for something like that. But I got it the wrong way, which could've also been a possibility

[Freija]

okay LAST POST lol

I was refering to the earlier episodes.
Like 28 when he first dodged it for the first time while in Blast Impulse.
Kira's face was priceless, never seen him so shocked before lol :laugh

and bleh..I hate spiders.
i was also talking bout' it, i mean you can recognize impulse anywhere anyhow right ? now didn't Kira kinda "Walk through" Shinn last time in ep 23 ?, then suddenly maybe what ? 2 weeks later (in anime) max, suddenly he dodges the attack and kinda lies on top of the water...

[antoine]

I hate to admit it but I agree with you david Kira's "WTF?" face is funny as hell.

[Strider]

this is sort of an interesting topic for me, because i see shinn now in a similar way i saw kira for the majority of seed.

i hated pre-freedom kira. he was an indecisive, crybaby berserker who was the personal lapdog of the ship slut. but you sort of couldn't blame him for it. his mental instability was caused by the situation he found himself caught in. he never wanted to fight to begin with, but he found himself having to kill people in order to protect himself and his friends. he was very troubled.

but then he had his awakening. after his near death experience fighting his best friend, he got saved by lacus. that was the turning point, not only because of his relationship with lacus but also because he matured a lot from it. he became a lot calmer and wiser in his decisions, partly because of her influence. that was when i started to not hate him anymore.

shinn's in sort of the same boat now. i hate his character. he's emotional, and he thinks his skills make him all that. but you can't blame him because he did see his own family get blown up in front of him. but it still doesn't change the fact that he's dullindal's personal lapdog, and he's very bloodthirsty. i'm just waiting for his awakening now, if it ever comes.

and i don't think kira ever acted like he was god. just remember, they didn't intrude in every battle, telling people to stop fighting. they intruded on select battles to stop the orb forces from battling. most people forget that they were only there to pull orb forces out. they weren't there to cause chaos on the battlefield. his sister is still the orb sovereign. she has the right to order them. he was merely acting as her bodyguard. if the orb forces had listened and pulled out, kira and freedom would have pulled out too. they could care less about eaf and zaft. he only started owning everyone when they shot at him first.

[Jujubie]

^ Very good post Strider! Reps for you!

I am starting to understand why people say Kira and Shinn balance each other. They are the exact opposite of each other, thus, they fill up one person. Kira and Shinn are like the angel and devil on your shoulder. Kira embodies pacifism, kindness, gentleness, modesty while Shinn embodies anger, arrogance, and blood thirst. Another reason they complement each other is because without Kira, you Shinn fans would have no one to worship lol. Without Kira killing his family, Shinn would still be a happy boy somewhere in the world seeking peace. Without Kira killing Stellar, Shinn would not be as badass as you Shinn fans like to point out. Without Shinn and Dullindal, Kira would still be in his favorite rocking chair because then Athrun would have taken care of the whole mess by himself.

In the end, since they both make up a person who is obviously good-illed, I see Shinn fighting with Kira and Athrun. As strider says, Shinn will have an awakening. This awakening will come in the form of a major but-whooping from Kira and Athrun. Kira and/or Athrun will say some words that will change Shinn's heart. That's my take on it.

[me_is_david]

Well you me
I tend to not make much sense while I am typing and realize it later.

Just like how I realized that Kira would obviously be surprised so I take that part back.
Anyone would, but I just love it when he is lol.

ah..but Kira shot at ZAFT first, killing a good number of crew members.
I'm sure that would easily anger ZAFT, but it is true he didn't start attacking.
But if he wanted to make the forces pull out, what was he trying to do.
Scare them off by trying to disable everything he could?
If they really wanted to keep ORB out they should have went to ORB just like Athrun said.
But even if Cagalli is their leader, orders are orders. Yuna (iuno official spelling) is their leader and they have to follow his.

Why the kept fighting and trying to prevent battles, I do not know why.
But they should've.
I mean come on, tell me if you were Shinn you would not have shot at Cagalli
He already has resentment for Cagalli, and for her to talking about stuff. It would easily annoy anyone. So I duno about you but if I was Shinn I would have shot as well.
If you guys wouldn't have, I want to know why.

So again, people don't think I'm anti-Kira. I saw past what they did and on episode 26 I liked him. When he protected Lacus and all that. But then he went ahead and killed my favorite character. Not his fault and yes he had to, but he did it nonetheless.

You can't blame Shinn for how he feels and what he does right now.
He is just as confused as all the other characters back in SEED.
Except he is more extreme about it. I also get the feeling that Athrun thinks of Shinn as a friend and doesn't want to fight him unless he has to.
Rey on the other hand I think Athrun wouldn't hesitate on fighting.
But Gilly brings up valid points, and I wouldn't blame Shinn for not believing them.
However Athrun knows better because he has gone through it already.
But I just realized I completely changed the subject.

So in short, they both can't be blamed for what they do.
You said Shinn acts like he is god because he acts like he decides who should live and who should die.
I don't think he is that way, sure he wants people to go his way. But recently I haven't seen Shinn act that way.
Kira acts like that too, if they don't do what they say he should he attacks them.
Except people think Kira is right (which he is in the end) but at this point no one knows. So Kira and Shinn are the same in what they fight for. So reasons for no liking Shinn because he does what he wants are no valid because they apply to Kira as well. But some people at other places don't believe that because Kira is right and he should do what he does and Shinn is wrong. But like they know that, no one is a psychic in that series, so no one knows who is right and who is wrong.

I rushed my post again because I have to go so there are probably many errors in it that you guys can tear apart lol.
So for now byebye.

[Chillin]

That is true on the last part, but you must realize Kira still questions what is right and what is wrong. He wonders if his enemy is doing the right thing. He wonders if he himself is doing the right thing. I'm pretty sure we will see his thoughts come to a head in the next episode. Shinn thinks what he is doing is right, and he has always thought that way (even if he must force himself to do so). I don't hold anything against either one of them for that, but I was just pointing something out.

[Jujubie]

Kira is just being a big brother =p david. Anyways, I'm very much into politics so I must say that I dislike Cagalli's character. I just like Kira for putting up with her lol.

[Freija]

Well you me
I tend to not make much sense while I am typing and realize it later.

Just like how I realized that Kira would obviously be surprised so I take that part back.
Anyone would, but I just love it when he is lol.

ah..but Kira shot at ZAFT first, killing a good number of crew members.

..He shot the activated positron cannon that is like what 12m away from the crew members when it's activater (it goes out of the ship)

[Strider]

Well you me
I tend to not make much sense while I am typing and realize it later.

Just like how I realized that Kira would obviously be surprised so I take that part back.
Anyone would, but I just love it when he is lol.

ah..but Kira shot at ZAFT first, killing a good number of crew members.
I'm sure that would easily anger ZAFT, but it is true he didn't start attacking.
But if he wanted to make the forces pull out, what was he trying to do.
Scare them off by trying to disable everything he could?
If they really wanted to keep ORB out they should have went to ORB just like Athrun said.
But even if Cagalli is their leader, orders are orders. Yuna (iuno official spelling) is their leader and they have to follow his.

Why the kept fighting and trying to prevent battles, I do not know why.
But they should've.
I mean come on, tell me if you were Shinn you would not have shot at Cagalli
He already has resentment for Cagalli, and for her to talking about stuff. It would easily annoy anyone. So I duno about you but if I was Shinn I would have shot as well.
If you guys wouldn't have, I want to know why.

So again, people don't think I'm anti-Kira. I saw past what they did and on episode 26 I liked him. When he protected Lacus and all that. But then he went ahead and killed my favorite character. Not his fault and yes he had to, but he did it nonetheless.

You can't blame Shinn for how he feels and what he does right now.
He is just as confused as all the other characters back in SEED.
Except he is more extreme about it. I also get the feeling that Athrun thinks of Shinn as a friend and doesn't want to fight him unless he has to.
Rey on the other hand I think Athrun wouldn't hesitate on fighting.
But Gilly brings up valid points, and I wouldn't blame Shinn for not believing them.
However Athrun knows better because he has gone through it already.
But I just realized I completely changed the subject.

So in short, they both can't be blamed for what they do.
You said Shinn acts like he is god because he acts like he decides who should live and who should die.
I don't think he is that way, sure he wants people to go his way. But recently I haven't seen Shinn act that way.
Kira acts like that too, if they don't do what they say he should he attacks them.
Except people think Kira is right (which he is in the end) but at this point no one knows. So Kira and Shinn are the same in what they fight for. So reasons for no liking Shinn because he does what he wants are no valid because they apply to Kira as well. But some people at other places don't believe that because Kira is right and he should do what he does and Shinn is wrong. But like they know that, no one is a psychic in that series, so no one knows who is right and who is wrong.

I rushed my post again because I have to go so there are probably many errors in it that you guys can tear apart lol.
So for now byebye.

you bring up some good points. and don't get me wrong, i'm not straight up bashing shinn.

kira did technically fire first, but it was because the positron cannon was charging up to fire on the orb fleet. he was trying to minimize casualties as best he could.

i also don't approve of the way cagalli does things. she has her ideals, but all she does is sit and whimper as she lets everyone walk all over them. it sort of takes a push from kira or lacus to get her to stand up for what she thinks is right. she should have stayed in orb and maintained control. i admire kira too for being able to put up with her.

and yeah, i really can't blame shinn for his actions. considering the tragedies he's been through and the limits to what he knows about the war, it's hard to blame him. in his shoes, i might have acted the same way too. but the thing i don't like about him is that he doesn't think for himself. in the words of yzak (oh, how i love yzak), it seems like his head is only there for decoration.

for one, shinn is very narrow-minded and selfish. he keeps repeating that he'll fight any enemy as long as it ends the war. but really, how does that make him any different from people like the blue cosmos? coordinator, humans, zaft, eaf, logos... it doesn't matter what label you use. his idea of ending the war by completely wiping out his enemies doesn't make him any different than previous warmongers like athrun's father or the blue cosmos. also, he couldn't see past his anger for kira killing stellar. i mean, yeah, i can understand how he may have felt. but he's forgetting how stellar annihilated hundreds of innocent people. how do you think the survivors of that feel? but he doesn't care. he just wants to get back at kira, disregarding all of the other people who died.

and lastly, like i mentioned before, shinn just doesn't think. he takes in whatever dullindal feeds him and follows whatever orders he's given. back in seed, when lacus was branded as a traitor, athrun confronted her at gunpoint. she asked him if he was going to shoot her just because she was labeled as the enemy. he was confused, but he didn't. shinn was presented with the same scenario with meyrin. he could have just disabled the ms and brought them back for questioning. but, just because rey told him to shoot it down, he did. no questions asked. it didn't matter to him that meyrin was in there. just because she was branded as the enemy, he aimed for the kill. he'll kill whoever the "enemy" is. if rey and dullindal told him that luna was a logos ███, he might be very confused about what to do, but in his current state he'd probably kill her too. he just needs to start thinking for himself for once.

[Freija]

Kira acts like that too, if they don't do what they say he should he attacks them. i dont know which anime you have been watching, sure its Gundam SEED Destiny ? ya know with Coordinators and naturals ?

[Freedom rulez]

If Kira didn't destroy the Tanhauser, ORB would'be been gone by now. what he did was a right thing. Shinn..erm. i don't like SHinn cuz he's so arrogant and just a hypocrite. Getting mad at Kira over Stellar's death was pretty much the last straw for me. Actually Kira didn't kill Stella. The explosions in her cockpit did, which was already really badly damaged from SHINN'S slash. But aside from that, anti-hero is not just someone without heroic qualities. Anti-heroes actually have very heroic qualities, they just prefer to work alone since they don't want to be hindered by morals about collateral damage or the like. EG Magus in Chrono Trigger is an anti-hero. Magus wanted to destroy the big monster Lavos by summoning it himself, but he was also thrust in the middle of a war between humans and mystics (was it mystics, I forget...they were these green critters anyhow) and so had to keep under cover. But the fact was, he had cunning and he did what he needed to do. Shinn's just a regular everyday soldier on the Minerva, albeit a narcisisst with too much power and not enough brains.

Stellar was a complete waste of oxygen who just went around destroying everything because she was told to, she needed to be put out of everyone's misery. If I have a girlfriend who just starts killing people because "Dying is scary" then I'm going to let the police come do whatever they have to do to take her down. Shinn on the other hand would like to allow her killing spree to continue because she reminds him of his family and shes suffered blah blah blah. Idiocy like that doesn't make for likeable characters.
Kira is the Perfect COORDINATOR!!. he is the Ultimate Coordinator and the Mankinds Dream. when you judge the overall skill of a pilot, you judge the whole package. Physical skillwise..i think there are about equal for now..Mentally, Kira trumps Shinn, period. Kira is better when it comes to things like dodging and defense. We saw Kira dodging DRAGOONS like a maniac at the end of SEED, something that could only be done with some serious skills, most likely those of a newtype. With the NT sensing Kira did at the end of SEED, and the few NT pings he got as well, I think it's pretty much a given he was developing into either a NT, or realizing some greater potential as the "Ultimate Coordinator". Regarding to Gillberts theory..Kira>>All

A: "Possessing all that talent and power, he was a fighter by nature. A fighter so great if we had had him in a mobile suit, he would've had to equal in the world today. Yet no one, not even him, was aware of that fact. And because he did not know this, he did not grow to be a fighter and did not live as one. He lived his life as a puppet of this era. it's unfathomable to think what power as great as his could be used of if used correctly. "

B: "With such nature and strength, he was naturally a warrior. Supposedly, if we let him fight in a mobile suit in the present day, it can be said that no one can match his skills.But not a single person, not even himself, knew about it. And because nobody knew about it, he wasn't raised, nor did he live life, as he should have. And unfortunately lived his life being trifted by the era. With such strength, think of all the countless possibilities if it were used properly."

If Kira's skills weren't even that great, why would he even compare it "to the world". he's praised Kira infront of two of his Ace pilots. there is more about Kira. he possess something that he doesn't know yet. some ppl are saying like Kira is the "Ultimate Cordinator" just cuz he came out of the Womb the way they excatly designed..thats completely not true. think: why did Hibiki wanted to make his son as the Ultimate Coordinator that might even cause that child to the death if its not gonna have some kinda skills than can surpass the Cordinators might be even the Newtypes. IMO, Kira is better than Newtypes.

[Chillin]

The explosions in her cockpit did, which was already really badly damaged from SHINN'S slash.

I never thought about that :S

But I mean even though Shinn contributed, Kira caused the explosion.

[Freija]

I never thought about that :S

But I mean even though Shinn contributed, Kira caused the explosion.
*hint* i've written that in like a few threads for awhile*hint* geez i hate being ignored (happends all the time) :/

[Chillin]

lol I'm sorry, but I'm surprised I didn't even think or see something that was so obvious.

[Jujubie]

shinn just doesn't think. he takes in whatever dullindal feeds him and follows whatever orders he's given. back in seed, when lacus was branded as a traitor, athrun confronted her at gunpoint. she asked him if he was going to shoot her just because she was labeled as the enemy. he was confused, but he didn't. shinn was presented with the same scenario with meyrin. he could have just disabled the ms and brought them back for questioning. but, just because rey told him to shoot it down, he did. no questions asked. it didn't matter to him that meyrin was in there. just because she was branded as the enemy, he aimed for the kill. he'll kill whoever the "enemy" is. if rey and dullindal told him that luna was a logos ███, he might be very confused about what to do, but in his current state he'd probably kill her too. he just needs to start thinking for himself for once.

Great post Strider! I totally didn't see the connection there until now.

[Freija]

lol I'm sorry, but I'm surprised I didn't even think or see something that was so obvious.
hahaha no problem ^_^ but if you rewatch the explosion in the MS that caused Stellar to wake up from "Soul mode" was caused by Shinn :D

[Freedom rulez]

I never thought about that :S

But I mean even though Shinn contributed, Kira caused the explosion.

she was an extended pilot who was created to be as a killing machine. but, i don't understand why u guys ain't piting Sting and Auel as much as u guys piting Stellar. IMO Sting and Auel were much much better than Stellar. Stellar killed countless ppl. she deserves it. Actually it was Shinn who striked her first. she already suffered enough by Shinn even before Kira made his final move. Kira needed to kill her..1) he didn't want to see more deaths 2) Stellar was about to Kill SHinn. Shinn was able to calm her down a bit..then, Kira stopped attacking Destroy..but, when she saw Freedom standing next to Impulse, she went back to her oldself(cuz, she thought Freedom killed Neo). and Stellar was about to kill Shinn. thats why Kira needed to kill her. like i mentioned before, Stellar was a complete waste of oxygen who just went around destroying everything because she was told to, she needed to be put out of everyone's misery. If I have a girlfriend who just starts killing people because "Dying is scary" then I'm going to let the police come do whatever they have to do to take her down. Shinn on the other hand would like to allow her killing spree to continue because she reminds him of his family and shes suffered blah blah blah. Idiocy like that doesn't make for likeable characters.

[staradderdragoon]

hahaha no problem ^_^ but if you rewatch the explosion in the MS that caused Stellar to wake up from "Soul mode" was caused by Shinn :D

which made her notice freedom and thus getting pissed off which resulted in kira trying to stop her. so both are at fault....

[Freija]

which made her notice freedom and thus getting pissed off which resulted in kira trying to stop her. so both are at fault....
i never said it was entirely Shinn's fault, im saying sure Kira dealt the final blow, but it was already severly damaged by Shinn

[Chillin]

she was an extended pilot who was created to be as a killing machine. but, i don't understand why u guys ain't piting Sting and Auel as much as u guys piting Stellar. IMO Sting and Auel were much much better than Stellar. Stellar killed countless ppl. she deserves it. Actually it was Shinn who striked her first. she already suffered enough by Shinn even before Kira made his final move. Kira needed to kill her..1) he didn't want to see more deaths 2) Stellar was about to Kill SHinn. Shinn was able to calm her down a bit..then, Kira stopped attacking Destroy..but, when she saw Freedom standing next to Impulse, she went back to her oldself(cuz, she thought Freedom killed Neo). and Stellar was about to kill Shinn. thats why Kira needed to kill her. like i mentioned before, Stellar was a complete waste of oxygen who just went around destroying everything because she was told to, she needed to be put out of everyone's misery. If I have a girlfriend who just starts killing people because "Dying is scary" then I'm going to let the police come do whatever they have to do to take her down. Shinn on the other hand would like to allow her killing spree to continue because she reminds him of his family and shes suffered blah blah blah. Idiocy like that doesn't make for likeable characters.

I don't pity her as much as the two other extended. Auel is my favorite, and I don't particularly like the other two. The original three from SEED were better pilots and far more interesting.

[Jujubie]

I don't understand the debate in who killed stellar. she should be dead...like any other extended. nuff said!

[Arrhencryas]

I would have to say that Shinn Asuka, overall is a superior character compared to Kira Yamato. They both have flaws and are easily manipulated, seeing to how Kira is manipulated by Flay Allster, and Shinn simply is propagandized by Chairman Durandal. Eventually though, Kira, selfishly has his own ambitions, but most of the time, conceals it to avoid criticism. He also kills without thought most of the time, just anything to protect what is only precious to HIM, not to other people, for example, he completely disregards Sai Argyle's feelings for Flay, and wants her for himself, and hurts Sai, saying that he was chasing after someone who had no interest in him, and he kills Stella when she goes berserk, he could have stopped her in another way. Shinn becomes heartbroken. Shinn, however, may be short-tempered and illogical in many ways, but it's not really his fault, witnessing the immediate deaths of his parents and his younger sister, but he actually has a good heart, rescuing Athrun during the Junius 7 crash on Earth, saving people on the Blue Cosmos base, and helping Stella to come to her senses when she nearly drowns. In terms of combat, perhaps both boys have the same potential, though Kira might have better control of his feelings, which leads him more to victory. So, overall, Kira is always branded as the main protagonist, he still is more unsympathetic, and does not empathize like Shinn, or, even his best friend, Athrun Zala. Therefore, Shinn is the winner, and I like him alot more in terms of personality and... Everything else.

Oh, and the Destiny looks kinda cooler than the Strike Freedom

Sorry to reply to such an old topic, but, I still really like the Mobile Suit Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny series.

[alexxb]

Well, Kira would lose due to his lacking ability to kill/his philosophy. As seen in Gundam Seed Destiny, Kira has had a few chances to kill/attack the cockpit of Shinn but doesn't take it which would eventually lead to him losing. However, if Kira would kill then I would say Kira would be Shinn.

(Sorry to contribute to an old topic).

[Jetstorm]

Kira was the better character overall imo. He felt more complete but that is probably why people refer to him as Jesus by this point in the series. Shinn was constantly self-centered and pampered throughout Destiny until Athrun finally beat his ass near the end. Plus constantly blaming Orb for all is problems grated on my nerves after the first few episodes.

As for Shinn's antics with Stellar, they ended up killing hundreds of people because he was selfish and so focused on one person that already had nothing but death coming to her anyway.

There was no way for her to live a normal life and after Neo placed her in Destroy it was sure as hell obvious that she would only ever be used for fighting.

Kira was in the right on this one and Stellar had to be stopped.

[reaperunique]

I would have to say that Shinn Asuka, overall is a superior character compared to Kira Yamato. They both have flaws and are easily manipulated, seeing to how Kira is manipulated by Flay Allster, and Shinn simply is propagandized by Chairman Durandal. Eventually though, Kira, selfishly has his own ambitions, but most of the time, conceals it to avoid criticism. He also kills without thought most of the time, just anything to protect what is only precious to HIM, not to other people, for example, he completely disregards Sai Argyle's feelings for Flay, and wants her for himself, and hurts Sai, saying that he was chasing after someone who had no interest in him, and he kills Stella when she goes berserk, he could have stopped her in another way. Shinn becomes heartbroken. Shinn, however, may be short-tempered and illogical in many ways, but it's not really his fault, witnessing the immediate deaths of his parents and his younger sister, but he actually has a good heart, rescuing Athrun during the Junius 7 crash on Earth, saving people on the Blue Cosmos base, and helping Stella to come to her senses when she nearly drowns. In terms of combat, perhaps both boys have the same potential, though Kira might have better control of his feelings, which leads him more to victory. So, overall, Kira is always branded as the main protagonist, he still is more unsympathetic, and does not empathize like Shinn, or, even his best friend, Athrun Zala. Therefore, Shinn is the winner, and I like him alot more in terms of personality and... Everything else.

Oh, and the Destiny looks kinda cooler than the Strike Freedom

Sorry to reply to such an old topic, but, I still really like the Mobile Suit Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny series.

That's not true he stopted killing arround the end of seed and in destiny he never kills a person, except for Stella but that's because he had to.eventhough you say there should be another way I doubt that. she was in an overpowered mecha destroying entire citys in one blow. And she was mentally unstable. Kira did the right thing.

Well, Kira would lose due to his lacking ability to kill/his philosophy. As seen in Gundam Seed Destiny, Kira has had a few chances to kill/attack the cockpit of Shinn but doesn't take it which would eventually lead to him losing. However, if Kira would kill then I would say Kira would be Shinn.

(Sorry to contribute to an old topic).

I agree completly :nod But you musn't forget the fact that Shinn and Rey first made a tactic that took them a day or two to make before they could defeat him. If Shinn didn't do this he would have never won. I'm sure that If Kira would have fought Shinn in space in episode 50 Kira would have won.

[Biolink]

That's not true he stopted killing arround the end of seed and in destiny he never kills a person, except for Stella but that's because he had to.eventhough you say there should be another way I doubt that. she was in an overpowered mecha destroying entire citys in one blow. And she was mentally unstable. Kira did the right thing.


Stella wasn't the only person he killed in Destiny.

Stella might've been the only he killed on purpose in Destiny.

When he attacks the Minerva later on we saw a beach chock full of body bags, from Minerva crew members that he has killed.

What about all the people he has disabled over the Ocean. Mobile Suits don't float on the surface of water. Or the people he disabled in the middle of Space. It's asking for a lot to retrieve them while a fight is going on.

[alexxb]

Well there are eject buttons (cockpit) plus they have that transmitter as shown by Athrun in SEED that gives off a signal where they are at. I don't know about you, but in some cases like the Ocean, I would prefer for my MS to fall into the ocean and me make survival attempts rather than an instant kill. Just my preferences.

[NewtypeS3]

Well there are eject buttons (cockpit)
...we've never once seen anyone eject from a cockpit anywhere in the 100 episodes of Seed and Destiny, nor in the 7 compilation movies, animated shorts for Astray, the entire Stargazer series, nor in the official manga sidestories!
Instead, we've seen Athrun hit a button to open his cockpit, where he has to escape and flee on foot (or, rather, via thrusters... but that's a different thing). We've seen Kira be saved by a rather complicatedly stupid 'cockpit shutter.'

The only mecha anime in decades to have an 'eject system' is Code Geass, which is insanely far from Gundam Seed in terms of design and the very world itself.
Well, that and the Gundam Wing manga, which showed us a Leo with an escape hatch built into the back of the unit - but that manga's not actually official in the way Sunrise thinks of official, nor do we know if that's actually a Leo standard.

plus they have that transmitter as shown by Athrun in SEED that gives off a signal where they are at.
Yes, there's that - but they need to escape the falling suit first!

I don't know about you, but in some cases like the Ocean, I would prefer for my MS to fall into the ocean and me make survival attempts rather than an instant kill. Just my preferences.
And, honestly, if your Mobile Suit is falling from a height above 50 feet or so, hitting the water is going to feel like smacking into the Earth... only then the pseudo-Earth is going to slowly swallow up your mobile suit and drag you to the bottom of it all.
And, really, you're going to be damned lucky to remain consious from that first one - so if you somehow survived the fall and hit, you'll have to get out before you reach crush-depth. And if you're unconsious, that's not gonna be easy.

[alexxb]

I'd take my chances, better than an instant kill imo. Especially if you are a coordinator, they are stronger and etc as seen by Kira in Seed when he was falling into the Earth's atmosphere, and the doctor commented on the heat, how coordinators are much superior than naturals, and etc.

[Red Zaku]

That's not true he stopted killing arround the end of seed and in destiny he never kills a person, except for Stella but that's because he had to.

Apparently you don't remember anything. >.> Kira stops killing when he gets Freedom Gundam which is episode 34 of the original Gundam SEED. So you clearly don't know that much about Kira. But then you go on to say Kira intentionally killed Stellar because he had to. Wrong again, Kira kills her by accident, he tries to disable the Destroy Gundam after he saw Shinn getting close and assumed that meant he could too. You know despite the fact Shinn never fired a shot at Stellar and he'd been a threat to her the whole fight. Any, Kira following an insanely poor line of logic thinks he can disable Destroy Gundam after his repeated failures to do so with the same weapons, and this leads to him firing at the suit while the cockpit was open, unintentionally killing Stellar.

eventhough you say there should be another way I doubt that.

Kira killed her AFTER Shinn got her to STOP fighting WITHOUT FIRING A SINGLE SHOT. >.> Kira then after he'd already attacked her advances in behind the Impulse, dumb move on Kira's part, which upsets Stellar and she attacks Freedom, but the attack is more of a threat to Shinn because he's infront of Freedom.

she was in an overpowered mecha destroying entire citys in one blow.

>.> No, she was rampaging through a City and destroying a good portion of it, but Destiny isn't an H-Bomb.

And she was mentally unstable. Kira did the right thing.

Shinn had already stopped her. She startsw up again because Kira is a bone head. >.> It's Kira's fault she starts attacking again, and it's Kira's fault she's dead. Apparently correctly remembering the events of Destiny beyond who killed who isn't your specialty.

I agree completly :nod But you musn't forget the fact that Shinn and Rey first made a tactic that took them a day or two to make before they could defeat him.

And? Not only does Shinn execute the plan so well Kira only hits him once after Shinn becomes careless in Melee range, but he utterly trounces Kira before and after that point. The fight was incredibly one sided and did nothing but illustrate Kira's short comings as a pilot.

If Shinn didn't do this he would have never won.

And if the Queen had balls she'd be the king. Shinn did do it so what-if's are utterly pointless things to bring up.

I'm sure that If Kira would have fought Shinn in space in episode 50 Kira would have won.

Kira didn't win when he had S-Freedom on the ground, and Shinn had no melee weapons aside from Destiny Finger. >.> Yet Kira is fought to a draw by Shinn, who's only opening is left when the the writer has him mysteriously exit SEED-mode in the middle of a battle. That's hardly good enough to show Kira' would beat Shinn.

I'd take my chances, better than an instant kill imo.

Drowning is the most terrifying experience on Earth. Trained intelligence collectors often stretch plastic wrap over a person's head, and pour water over the top because it perfectly simulates the feel of drowning. It's such an effective interrogation method, that ALL branchs of the US special forces, and the CIA have stopped teaching methods to counter it's affects. >.> If you want to subject yourself to the worst sensation a person can experience before you die then be my guest, but make no mistake a good portion of Kir'as earth skills likely experienced this exact same feeling before they died.

Especially if you are a coordinator, they are stronger and etc as seen by Kira in Seed when he was falling into the Earth's atmosphere, and the doctor commented on the heat, how coordinators are much superior than naturals, and etc.

Kira survived re-entry, which is all together and completely different from surviving a 10 story fall onto water which because of it's surface tension would be like hitting concrete. The machine would be lucky to survive from that height let alone the pilot inside.

[alexxb]

Just remembered this, doesn't Kira only attack the weapons/cameras of the MS as stated by Rey. So even if they can't fight, can't they still fly away??

[Red Zaku]

Just remembered this, doesn't Kira only attack the weapons/cameras of the MS as stated by Rey. So even if they can't fight, can't they still fly away??


No, he's blown off Arms, wings, and legs. He attacks every part of the MS that allows for offense. He's only ever shot weapons twice and both of them on named characters. Rey, and Luna. And the shot on Luna's gun nearly gets her killed.

[alexxb]

Then why would Rey say that??

[Red Zaku]

Then why would Rey say that??


I dunno, why do people say the Ultimate Coordinator makes Kira to superior to everyone when they don't even say that in the show? Because people have crap memories.

[alexxb]

Well are stating what you said based on your crap memory or something you know for sure, like your name(??).

[NewtypeS3]

He's saying that Rey has a crap memory, because the actual data shown while Rey speaks shows Kira shooting for more than 'just weapons and cameras.'

[alexxb]

LoL, stupid Rey.

[Biolink]

I'd take my chances, better than an instant kill imo. Especially if you are a coordinator, they are stronger and etc as seen by Kira in Seed when he was falling into the Earth's atmosphere, and the doctor commented on the heat, how coordinators are much superior than naturals, and etc.

Sometimes the Instant Kill is much more gratuitous than a Slow death.

At least with an Instant Death it's over.

Slow death, you go through the entire process:

1)Optimisim
2)Doubt
3)Realization
4)Death

It's straight up torture.

Also Red, that Interrogation method used by the Government is called Waterboarding.

It sure sounds like a lot of fun at least.

You know it's pretty bad, when the average amount of time CIA Agents can last was about 12 seconds IIRC. Some pompous sounding magazine writer said it was a valid means of Interrogation, needless to say he put his self through it and changed his opinion immediately.