Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

[batanga]

Soldier Sues Army, Saying His Atheism Led to Threats

FORT RILEY, Kan. — When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

Last month, Specialist Hall and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group, filed suit in federal court in Kansas, alleging that Specialist Hall’s right to be free from state endorsement of religion under the First Amendment had been violated and that he had faced retaliation for his views. In November, he was sent home early from Iraq because of threats from fellow soldiers.

Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Defense Department, declined to comment on the case, saying, “The department does not discuss pending litigation.”

Specialist Hall’s lawsuit is the latest incident to raise questions about the military’s religion guidelines. In 2005, the Air Force issued new regulations in response to complaints from cadets at the Air Force Academy that evangelical Christian officers used their positions to proselytize. In general, the armed forces have regulations, Ms. Lainez said, that respect “the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs.”

To Specialist Hall and other critics of the military, the guidelines have done little to change a culture they say tilts heavily toward evangelical Christianity. Controversies have continued to flare, largely over tactics used by evangelicals to promote their faith. Perhaps the most high-profile incident involved seven officers, including four generals, who appeared, in uniform and in violation of military regulations, in a 2006 fund-raising video for the Christian Embassy, an evangelical Bible study group.

“They don’t trust you because they think you are unreliable and might break, since you don’t have God to rely on,” Specialist Hall said of those who proselytize in the military. “The message is, ‘It’s a Christian nation, and you need to recognize that.’ ”

Soft-spoken and younger looking than his 23 years, Specialist Hall began a chapter of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers at Camp Speicher, near Tikrit, to support others like him.

At the July meeting, Major Welborn told the soldiers they had disgraced those who had died for the Constitution, Specialist Hall said. When he finished, Major Welborn said, according to the statement: “I love you guys; I just want the best for you. One day you will see the truth and know what I mean.”

Major Welborn declined to comment beyond saying, “I’d love to tell my side of the story because it’s such a false story.”

But Timothy Feary, the other soldier at the meeting, said in an e-mail message: “Jeremy is telling the truth. I was there and witnessed everything.”

It is unclear how widespread religious discrimination or proselytizing is in the armed forces, constitutional law experts and leaders of veterans’ groups said. No one has independently studied the issue, and service members are reluctant to come forward because of possible backlash, those experts said.

There are 1.36 million active duty service members, according to the Pentagon, and since 2005, it has received 50 formal complaints of religious discrimination, Ms. Lainez said.

In an e-mail statement, Bill Carr, the Defense Department’s deputy under secretary for military personnel policy, said he “saw near universal compliance with the department’s policy.”

But Mikey Weinstein, a retired Air Force judge advocate general and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said the official statistics masked the great number of those who do not report violations for fear of retribution. Since the Air Force Academy scandal began in 2004, Mr. Weinstein said, he has been contacted by more than 5,500 service members and, occasionally, military families about incidents of religious discrimination. He said 96 percent of the complainants were Christians, and the majority of those were Protestants.

Complaints include prayers “in Jesus’ name” at mandatory functions, which violates military regulations, and officers proselytizing subordinates to be “born again.” After getting the complainants’ unit and command information, Mr. Weinstein said, he calls his contacts in the military to try to correct the situation.

“Religion is inextricably intertwined with their jobs,” Mr. Weinstein said. “You’re promoted by who you pray with.”

Specialist Hall came to atheism after years as a Christian. He was raised Baptist by his grandmother in Richlands, N.C., a town of fewer than 1,000 people. She read the Bible to him every night, and he said he joined the Army “to make something of myself.”

“I thought going to Iraq was right because we had God on our side,” he said in an interview near Fort Riley.

In the summer of 2005, after his first deployment to Iraq, Specialist Hall became friends with soldiers with atheist leanings. Their questions about faith prompted him to read the Bible more closely, which bred doubts that deepened over time.

“There are so many religions in the world,” he said. “Everyone thinks he’s right. Who is right? Even people who are Christians think other Christians are wrong.”

Specialist Hall said he did not advertise his atheism. But his views became apparent during his second deployment in 2006. At a Thanksgiving meal, someone at his table asked everyone to pray. Specialist Hall did not join in, explaining to a sergeant that he did not believe in God. The sergeant got angry, he said, and told him to go to another table.

After his run-in with Major Welborn, Specialist Hall did not file a complaint with the Army’s Equal Opportunity Office because, he said, he was mistrustful of his superior officers. Instead, he told leaders of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, who put him in touch with Mr. Weinstein. In November 2007, Specialist Hall was sent home early from Iraq after being repeatedly threatened by other soldiers. “I caution you that although your ‘legal’ issues are yours and yours alone, I have heard many people disagree with you, and this may be a cause for some of the perceived threats,” wrote Sgt. Maj. Kevin Nolan in Specialist Hall’s counseling for his departure.

Though with a different unit now at Fort Riley, Specialist Hall said the backlash had continued. He has a no-contact order with a sergeant who, without provocation, threatened to “bust him in the mouth.” Another sergeant allegedly told Specialist Hall that as an atheist, he was not entitled to religious freedom because he had no religion.

Responding to questions about Specialist Hall’s experience at Fort Riley, the staff judge advocate, Col. Arnold Scott, said in an e-mail message, “In accordance with Army policy, Fort Riley is committed to ensuring the rights of all its soldiers are protected, including those of Specialist Hall.”

Civilian courts in the past have been reluctant to take on military cases, and the Justice Department has yet to respond to Specialist Hall’s lawsuit.

“Even if it doesn’t go through, I stood up,” Specialist Hall said. “I don’t think it is futile.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/us/26atheist.html?ex=1366948800&en=c4cf98ce0e7fa739&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

Good thing I didn't come across guys like the Major in my service... and they talk about tolerance.

Ob9To1-ZeIY

[dreams lie]

In an e-mail statement, Bill Carr, the Defense Department’s deputy under secretary for military personnel policy, said he “saw near universal compliance with the department’s policy.”

:facepalm

The worst thing is that these people volunteered to be part of the army. Getting discriminated against and statements like

“People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!”

is just adding insult to injury.

[T4R0K]

I wonder if they'd feel dirty or desacralized if an atheist soldier saved their lives, lol.

Idiots. Don't look down on the man next to you who's risking his life just like you for the same country !

[FrostXian]

I would just act like a christian until I get the fuck out of there.

[Sarutobi sasuke]

“People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!”


It is sad when soldiers don't know the history of a country they're supposed to be defending.

The Founding Fathers were Deists who believed in secularism

Yes there is a need to shout

Source (http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html)

[Simulacrum]

It is sad when soldiers don't know the history of a country they're supposed to be defending.

The Founding Fathers were Deists who believed in secularism

Yes there is a need to shout

Source (http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html)

Keeping Jefferson's words in historical context, he was speaking out about "religion" and "Christianity" as to what it had devolved into: a tool of the state in enslaving the populace. (attacking Paul is indication enough of this, as Paul is the acclaimed cornerstone of Catholicism and all Popes claim to be in some way descended from him) As those quotes go on, this view only becomes more evident. He is not being "anti-religious" in the modern sense but rather anti-Catholic or against mixing state and religion (whereas Catholicism was founded by mixing original Christianity with pagan Rome), and this is not a surprise since state-controlled religion is what spurred so many people to flee into New World. Also, the idea that the founders where in any way even leaning towards secularism is laughable, as even in their private discourse they make no bones about holding solid faith in the existence of a Creator-God, and their doubts are focused entirely on what men have made of Him.

[Saufsoldat]

Keeping Jefferson's words in historical context, he was speaking out about "religion" and "Christianity" as to what it had devolved into: a tool of the state in enslaving the populace. (attacking Paul is indication enough of this, as Paul is the acclaimed cornerstone of Catholicism and all Popes claim to be in some way descended from him) As those quotes go on, this view only becomes more evident. He is not being "anti-religious" in the modern sense but rather anti-Catholic or against mixing state and religion (whereas Catholicism was founded by mixing original Christianity with pagan Rome), and this is not a surprise since state-controlled religion is what spurred so many people to flee into New World. Also, the idea that the founders where in any way even leaning towards secularism is laughable, as even in their private discourse they make no bones about holding solid faith in the existence of a Creator-God, and their doubts are focused entirely on what men have made of Him.

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Oh certainly, this has to be put into a historical context :facepalm

He wasn't really saying that christianity is founded on fables and mythology... Oh wait, he was :huh

[UB3R]

It is sad when soldiers don't know the history of a country they're supposed to be defending.

The Founding Fathers were Deists who believed in secularism

Yes there is a need to shout

Source (http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html)

america was made so that u culd belive wat u want im a christan and i say they can think that way

[batanga]

america was made so that u culd belive wat u want im a christan and i say they can think that way
Way to miss the point completely...

[Mider T]

It's people like the soldiers and Crazy Loop who make us Christians look bad.

For God's sake, this isn't boy scouts, the man is serving his country just as effectively as the next man.

[Sarutobi sasuke]

Also, the idea that the founders where in any way even leaning towards secularism is laughable, as even in their private discourse they make no bones about holding solid faith in the existence of a Creator-God, and their doubts are focused entirely on what men have made of Him.

Secularism =/= Atheism.

It is well known that the founding fathers believed in a god. They where also keen to avoid the mistakes made in Europe in regards to the church having too much political influence. They wanted to create a secular country where people had the freedom to believe or disbelieve whatever they pleased, free from persecution. This why church and state should be kept separate. The military is state institution and those who serve should be free to believe whatever they please and they should allow those serve alongside them to do the same. It is this ideal is slowly being perverted by the Christian right.

[auto-matic]

whoa even the military enforces religion, I HOPE THAT GUY WINNS

[DremolitoX]

Ah well. Sucks for him.

[Cardboard Jewsuke]

I'm happy me and my athiest boss never had to deal with this crap. Granted, we didn't start a group for Athiests, but our stance was pretty well-known.

[ZeroBlack]

ahh -isms, arent they grand =/

[dreams lie]

Secularism =/= Atheism.

It is well known that the founding fathers believed in a god. They where also keen to avoid the mistakes made in Europe in regards to the church having too much political influence. They wanted to create a secular country where people had the freedom to believe or disbelieve whatever they pleased, free from persecution. This why church and state should be kept separate. The military is state institution and those who serve should be free to believe whatever they please and they should allow those serve alongside them to do the same. It is this ideal is slowly being perverted by the Christian right.

To clarify further, many of them were deists, not theists.

[Saufsoldat]

To clarify further, many of them were deists, not theists.

Deist = theist.

[narutosimpson]

i can attest to religious discrimination in the military, so this doesn't surprise me

[dreams lie]

Deist = theist.

Not in the term that they would go to church and have a set of religious text. Last I check, deists were classified under irreligious.

[sikvod00]

“People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!”
Yes, because we all know the U.S. Constitution is largely based on Christian values and not French Enlightenment principles...

[Lezard Valeth]

I'm totally disgusted by these behaviors in US army and more generally in USA.

How is it different than countries like Iran? Different religion, same idiotic zealots.

[Saufsoldat]

Not in the term that they would go to church and have a set of religious text. Last I check, deists were classified under irreligious.

Theists aren't necessarily religious either.

[dreams lie]

theism |ˈθēˌizəm|
noun
belief in the existence of a god or gods, esp. belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.


So this doesn't affect the way they think or the way they live their life? :argh

[Razgriez]

I personally never witnessed such things but its everywhere regardless. Hell just a few years ago there was a bunch of high ranking individuals pimping out the chicks under them in the Air Force so just about anything can happen anywhere.

Another thing is Im noticing a lot of you guys are practically saying this happens all the time but in fact it doesnt. Well at least I have yet to experience it outside my family and the internets which atheists hammer poor christanity into oblivion. If you wanna be left alone be nice enough to leave them alone as well.

[Saufsoldat]

So this doesn't affect the way they think or the way they live their life? :argh

What dictionary is that?

[avraell]

Just to clarify:

Deism - belief that God created the world and left it alone, not interfering in any way, and who anyone that claimed to understand the nature of god was full of shit, and that there was no one true religion.

[narutosimpson]

I personally never witnessed such things but its everywhere regardless. Hell just a few years ago there was a bunch of high ranking individuals pimping out the chicks under them in the Air Force so just about anything can happen anywhere.

Another thing is Im noticing a lot of you guys are practically saying this happens all the time but in fact it doesnt. Well at least I have yet to experience it outside my family and the internets which atheists hammer poor christanity into oblivion. If you wanna be left alone be nice enough to leave them alone as well.

i'm guessing ur christian so of course you never notice :nuts

[Hana]

I haven't really witnessed any major discrimination since I joined the Army a few years ago. The only incident I can recall was an atheist Sergeant complained to a Colonel about having to sit through a session of "Amazing Grace" and the Colonel responded by saying that he'll sit through one Godsmack song if it will make him feel better. :zaru

[dreams lie]

What dictionary is that?

I believe it is the New Oxford American Dictionary. It is part of my built in dictionary on the Mac OS X. :gar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Oxford_American_Dictionary

[Saufsoldat]

I believe it is the New Oxford American Dictionary. It is part of my built in dictionary on the Mac OS X. :gar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Oxford_American_Dictionary

Don't use wikipedia as a source unless you want to accept this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism).

[Jin-E]

Specialist Hall’s lawsuit is the latest incident to raise questions about the military’s religion guidelines. In 2005, the Air Force issued new regulations in response to complaints from cadets at the Air Force Academy that evangelical Christian officers used their positions to proselytize. ”

Lol, hypocrits

They try to force their faith on others, while they themself ignore and discard the very same teachings.

Whatever happened to "Thy shall not kill?"

[Xion]

Boo hoo.

Get in line. Did you honestly expect anything different?

It might not be right, but it's life. :zaru

[Denji]

Discrimination, and against a man who has volunteered to serve his country no less.

Major :facepalm

[The Sentry]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalm

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOS

[Megaharrison]

How is it different than countries like Iran?.

The U.S. is a Federal Republic, Iran is an Islamic theocracy. The US has no religious institutions holding any power, Iran does. The US state does not recognize any national religion, Iran does. The President of the United States does not hold the duel status of a major religious official, Iran does. The American Legislative Branch is not based around religious clerics, Iran's is. The US constitution forbids any integration of church and state, Iran's constitution stresses it:

The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran advances the cultural, social, political, and economic institutions of Iranian society based on Islamic principles and norms, which represent an honest aspiration of the Islamic Ummah.

Do I really need to go on? You can sensationalize about Bush saying God in his speeches all you want but the two sides simply do not compare. The primary difference is the institutionalization of theocracy in Iranian government and the institutionalization of secularization in American government.

[Deamiel]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalm

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOS

There's a fairly large difference between criticism and discrimination.

I criticize religion quite often, but I do not discriminate against those who hold faith in one.

[Coteaz]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalm

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOS
Death threats and active discrimination are not even remotely close to questioning/doubting/criticizing religion. When I start taking your rights away and preventing your promotions, come talk. Until then, shut up.

Oh, and thank you for ignoring the pagelong discussion on the Founding Fathers' religious views. :facepalm

[Simulacrum]

Secularism =/= Atheism.

It is well known that the founding fathers believed in a god. They where also keen to avoid the mistakes made in Europe in regards to the church having too much political influence. They wanted to create a secular country where people had the freedom to believe or disbelieve whatever they pleased, free from persecution. This why church and state should be kept separate. The military is state institution and those who serve should be free to believe whatever they please and they should allow those serve alongside them to do the same. It is this ideal is slowly being perverted by the Christian right.

The armed forces is not a normal social construct. The fact that they have their own court system is evidence of this. It is, and should be, separate from the rest of society and it's regulations. Since they're job is to kill and die then I, at least, am willing to overlook such laws as the separation between church and state in the armed forces.

The main reason behind military regulations is to promote unit cohesion since a dysfunctional military isn't helpful to anyone, and if religion is what they need to protect the rest of the nation's liberties, so be it. And, this isn't even that much of a problem. 50 officially reported cases of alleged religious discrimination? Even if Weinstein's acclaimed 5,500 service members who allegedly reported religious discrimination were all true then that's hardly an epidemic - even if you were to double that to 11,000 violated servicemen then it still affecting less than 5% of all the enlisted. If the disruption caused by atheism is going to outweigh the benefits of having atheist serve openly in the military, then it's not a worthwhile goal for the military to pursue. The job of the military is too important to allow politics to dictate military life, and this is particularly true during wartime on the battlefront. Maybe if there was a draft and people didn't have a choice about serving then this would be an important issue, but there's no draft so it's not.

[dreams lie]

Don't use wikipedia as a source unless you want to accept this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism).

I don't really need it as a source. If you look up the definition of theism using Apple's built in dictionary and Oxford's, you will find that it is pretty much the same thing.

[Aldrick]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name

Yes because they wussies who can't tolerate death threats from the righteous religious soldiers:zaru

Do you even fucking read the articles?

[iLurk]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalm

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOS


1) Read the article.
2) Religious people sued McDonalds.
3) Look at the wars we're currently having; all religion based.

[Tokoyami]

The message is, ‘It’s a Christian nation, and you need to recognize thatWow.

WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CHURCH AND STATE YOU MASSIVE FUCKWITS!?!?!?

I've had it with this bullshit something needs to happen soon for this kind of bullshit to stop.

[Saufsoldat]

I don't really need it as a source. If you look up the definition of theism using Apple's built in dictionary and Oxford's, you will find that it is pretty much the same thing.

Apple is shit. Apple lies. Apple kills. :pek

[Pilaf]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalm

Nobody else has to give religious people a bad name..you do that to yourselves daily.

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

Being discriminated against to the point you lose your job because of private beliefs is a legitimate reason for a lawsuit.

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOS


The founding fathers would deport your ass.

[Tokoyami]

stupid atheists...always trying to give religious people a bad name :facepalmWe don't need to.

You do a good job of that yourselves.

They can critisize religion all they want but when it happens to them....."oh noes ima sue your bitch ass."

I hope he loses the law suit.....for the founding fathers saek :LOSYeah because separation of church and state was something they came up with you failure at life.

OR did you forget that tiny piece of information?

[Deamiel]

The armed forces is not a normal social construct. The fact that they have their own court system is evidence of this. It is, and should be, separate from the rest of society and it's regulations. Since they're job is to kill and die then I, at least, am willing to overlook such laws as the separation between church and state in the armed forces.

The main reason behind military regulations is to promote unit cohesion since a dysfunctional military isn't helpful to anyone, and if religion is what they need to protect the rest of the nation's liberties, so be it. And, this isn't even that much of a problem. 50 officially reported cases of alleged religious discrimination? Even if Weinstein's acclaimed 5,500 service members who allegedly reported religious discrimination were all true then that's hardly an epidemic - even if you were to double that to 11,000 violated servicemen then it still affecting less than 5% of all the enlisted. If the disruption caused by atheism is going to outweigh the benefits of having atheist serve openly in the military, then it's not a worthwhile goal for the military to pursue. The job of the military is too important to allow politics to dictate military life, and this is particularly true during wartime on the battlefront. Maybe if there was a draft and people didn't have a choice about serving then this would be an important issue, but there's no draft so it's not.

Lol, real cute. You talk about military cohesion, yet you fail to realize that it's the so-called 'Christian' military personnel who are causing all of the problems.

The U.S. is a multicultural nation with many different races and beliefs (religious or not). If the military wanted cohesion, they'd focus solely on military combat and nothing more.

Now, under your theory, if the U.S. military is to succeed, it should only contain Christians and nothing but Christians.

Well, thanks for discriminating against the majority of the U.S. population since most U.S. citizens aren't even true Christians in the first place.

Also, this Atheist soldier wasn't creating any problems of his own. It was his 'Christian' superiors who were causing all of the conflicts, not him or his band of companions.

You take great pride in the U.S. military. I respect that. I really do. However, if cohesion is what you want, it should be centered around a principle or ideal that doesn't involve Religion. Discriminating against and hating a fellow soldier because he doesn't believe in the same 'god' you do or share your same beliefs is pure ignorance and is truly pathetic of anyone.

Remember, your so-called God's army doesn't include a bunch of soldiers firing at each other with MP5s and AK-47s while attempting to avoid mortar and missile fire. A true army in today's world goes against everything the Christian God stood for. Think about that next time you decide to discriminate against everyone but the stereotypical Christian follower.

End of story.

Edit -- //

Also, it's really nice to see that you believe that in order to join the United States Military, one must be some stuck-up conservative bastard. Oh, and add Christian to that requirement as well.

Typical narrow-minded fool. I hope you enjoy the current Republican administration. It most likely won't last much longer.

[Simulacrum]

Lol, real cute. You talk about military cohesion, yet you fail to realize that it's the so-called 'Christian' military personnel who are causing all of the problems.

The U.S. is a multicultural nation with many different races and beliefs (religious or not). If the military wanted cohesion, they'd focus solely on military combat and nothing more.

Now, under your theory, if the U.S. military is to succeed, it should only contain Christians and nothing but Christians.

Well, thanks for discriminating against the majority of the U.S. population since most U.S. citizens aren't even true Christians in the first place.

Also, this Atheist soldier wasn't creating any problems of his own. It was his 'Christian' superiors who were causing all of the conflicts, not him or his band of companions.

You take great pride in the U.S. military. I respect that. I really do. However, if cohesion is what you want, it should be centered around a principle or ideal that doesn't involve Religion. Discriminating against and hating a fellow soldier because he doesn't believe in the same 'god' you do or share your same beliefs is pure ignorance and is truly pathetic of anyone.

Remember, your so-called God's army doesn't include a bunch of soldiers firing at each other with MP5s and AK-47s while attempting to avoid mortar and missile fire. A true army in today's world goes against everything the Christian God stood for. Think about that next time you decide to discriminate against everyone but the stereotypical Christian follower.

End of story. Ug, the only thing worse than religious superiority is anti-religious superiority. In case you didn't comprehend this part:
And, this isn't even that much of a problem. 50 officially reported cases of alleged religious discrimination? Even if Weinstein's acclaimed 5,500 service members who allegedly reported religious discrimination were all true then that's hardly an epidemic - even if you were to double that to 11,000 violated servicemen then it still affecting less than 5% of all the enlisted. pretty much covers that this isn't quite the epidemic you're pretending it is. Also note, that Weinstein's alleged group of victims aren't stated to still be enlisted, so the actual servicemen who are in service right now and are under the impression that they're being discriminated against is likely to be a fraction of 1% of the combined US armed forces. But, if you want to have an atheist crusade against Christians in the military during wartime, be my guest.

Edit -- //

Also, it's really nice to see that you believe that in order to join the United States Military, one must be some stuck-up conservative bastard. Oh, and add Christian to that requirement as well.

Typical narrow-minded fool. I hope you enjoy the current Republican administration. It most likely won't last much longer. As long as the Democrats keep eating each other alive, McCain is a shoe-in. Actually, people tend to vote for what's familiar so McCain cinched the election once he became the last old white guy left in the race. Get emotional all you want, it won't change reality.

[Deamiel]

Ug, the only thing worse than religious superiority is anti-religious superiority. In case you didn't comprehend this part:
pretty much covers that this isn't quite the epidemic you're pretending it is. Also note, that Weinstein's alleged group of victims aren't stated to still be enlisted, so the actual servicemen who are in service right now and are under the impression that they're being discriminated against is likely to be a fraction of 1% of the combined US armed forces. But, if you want to have an atheist crusade against Christians in the military during wartime, be my guest.

No, I'm more geared towards tolerance of other people's beliefs. You, obviously, don't seem to understand that.

[Simulacrum]

No, I'm more geared towards tolerance of other people's beliefs. You, obviously, don't seem to understand that.
If you're truly tolerant then you should accept it when other peoples' beliefs include intolerance. Being intolerant is not tolerant. See, I didn't understand your "tolerance" because you're not being tolerant.

[Deamiel]

If you're truly tolerant then you should accept it when other peoples' beliefs include intolerance. Being intolerant is not tolerant. See, I didn't understand your "tolerance" because you're not being tolerant.

Then, by your words, the 'Christian' military personnel are hypocrites for showing intolerance. And, since you support these intolerant Christian hypocrites, then you must be an intolerant hypocrite yourself.

Okay, understood, Sir.

Also, I said I believe in tolerance of other's beliefs, not their actions. If the military personnel choose to dislike an atheist soldier, then fine. But, I won't tolerate an act of discrimination.

[mister_manji]

I personally never witnessed such things but its everywhere regardless. Hell just a few years ago there was a bunch of high ranking individuals pimping out the chicks under them in the Air Force so just about anything can happen anywhere.

Another thing is Im noticing a lot of you guys are practically saying this happens all the time but in fact it doesnt. Well at least I have yet to experience it outside my family and the internets which atheists hammer poor christanity into oblivion. If you wanna be left alone be nice enough to leave them alone as well.

this might be because the Air Force (which i assume you're in) has fewer evangelicals in it than the Army.

[newbies13]

The problem is that he joined into something that deals with brainwashing, a lot of lifers are brainwashed into america is all there is and the cookie cutter way is all that matters.

[Aldrick]

the cookie cutter way is all that matters.

No it isn't.

[Deamiel]

No it isn't.

Excellent example of taking text out of context and twisting its meaning.

[Simulacrum]

Then, by your words, the 'Christian' military personnel are hypocrites for showing intolerance. And, since you support these intolerant Christian hypocrites, then you must be an intolerant hypocrite yourself.

Okay, understood, Sir. Uh, you're the one claiming to be tolerant. For your misconception to hold a shred of relevance then you'd have to project your "tolerance" onto the allegedly intolerant Christians in the military. If the Christians in the military are being intolerant it's because their beliefs compel them, so at least they're being consistent within their own ideologies which is more than I can say about you.

Also, I said I believe in tolerance of other's beliefs, not their actions. If the military personnel choose to dislike an atheist soldier, then fine. But, I won't tolerate an act of discrimination. ... beliefs but not actions? So, you're stupid as well as a hypocrite. Sad, but not surprising.

[Saufsoldat]

... beliefs but not actions? So, you're stupid as well as a hypocrite. Sad, but not surprising.

:facepalm Are you aware of the difference between freedom of thought and freedom of doing something...? It works based on the same principle.

[Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki]

Uh, you're the one claiming to be tolerant. For your misconception to hold a shred of relevance then you'd have to project your "tolerance" onto the allegedly intolerant Christians in the military. If the Christians in the military are being intolerant it's because their beliefs compel them, so at least they're being consistent within their own ideologies which is more than I can say about you.

Are you implying that being a LOGICAL asshole is better than being an illogical NON-asshole?

I also object to your use of the word ALLEGEDLY. They're not ALLEGEDLY intolerant. They ARE intolerant.

[Simulacrum]

:facepalm Are you aware of the difference between freedom of thought and freedom of doing something...? It works based on the same principle.

What has been done, exactly? Has anybody been stabbed, shot, beat up, or anything like that? Certainly, there have been a handful of legal cases where atheist servicemen claim religious discrimination, but out of the cases that have gone to the courts how many have ended in a decision in their favor?

Get back to me when you find out the answer to those questions.

[Saufsoldat]

What has been done, exactly? Has anybody been stabbed, shot, beat up, or anything like that?

He's been harassed and discriminated against? Read the article, smartass.

Certainly, there have been a handful of legal cases where atheist servicemen claim religious discrimination, but out of the cases that have gone to the courts how many have ended in a decision in their favor?

How is that relevant?

Get back to me when you find out the answer to those questions.

Those completely irrelevant questions? No, thanks.

[Simulacrum]

He's been harassed and discriminated against? Read the article, smartass. An officer tried to convert him, and he had to go sit at a different table because he wouldn't pray. Big. Fucking. Deal.

How is that relevant? Because it's easy to make a claim. I can claim that the government is putting AIDS in my tap water. But a claim means nothing until it's proven in court.

Those completely irrelevant questions? No, thanks. :facepalm

[Saufsoldat]

An officer tried to convert him, and he had to go sit at a different table because he wouldn't pray. Big. Fucking. Deal.

Read the article again :)

Because it's easy to make a claim. I can claim that the government is putting AIDS in my tap water. But a claim means nothing until it's proven in court.

:facepalm

I do not know how many witnesses they have and frankly, I don't care. I'm not the judge.

If your whole point is that you doubt the man is speaking the truth, then do so, but don't try to defend the assholes who harassed him.

[Simulacrum]

Read the article again :) I read the article a few times already. What I saw was a single sentence from the accused officer sandwiched between allegations and speculation from the writer on the extent of religious discrimination in the military, accusations of threats without evidence, with quotes from Weinstein and his unconfirmed number of victims and anecdotal generalization about soldiers being told (but not forced) to pray overshadowing the e-mail from the deputy from the Defense Department stating that there's near-universal compliance with department policy. In other words, it's typical media hype and I'm not really the type of person who enjoys getting hysterical over nothing.

I do not know how many witnesses they have and frankly, I don't care. I'm not the judge.

If your whole point is that you doubt the man is speaking the truth, then do so, but don't try to defend the assholes who harassed him. When I did say anything about witnesses? What I'm saying is that news articles about religious discrimination in the armed forces are a dime a dozen, but actual cases where discrimination has actually been proven are practically non-existent. If you don't understand the importance of the difference then there's no amount of words I can use to make you get the point.

[neko-sennin]

I wonder if they'd feel dirty or desacralized if an atheist soldier saved their lives, lol.

lol, Death Before Dishonor, and all that crap?

Idiots. Don't look down on the man next to you who's risking his life just like you for the same country !

Damn straight!

It is sad when soldiers don't know the history of a country they're supposed to be defending.

The Founding Fathers were Deists who believed in secularism

Yes there is a need to shout

Source (http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html)

To simplify Sarutobi's point, regardless of the Founding Fathers' personal beliefs, the principles espoused in the Constitution were built around a society where government is secular and religion is personal.

[Xion]

Did anyone see the Fox News interview with this man?

I am not one to bash news programs for bias, but goddamn (:hehee) the number one question they asked him was basically: are you sure you don't believe in God? and they then proceeded to go into the "no atheists in foxholes" strategy.

Seriously, 70% of the clip was that.

[batanga]

Ob9To1-ZeIY

What a bitch.

[Sexta Espada]

Hope he wins.

These army brass who keep on hating on the atheists need to remember that we have freedom of religion (or lack thereof) and it's a right granted by the Constitution they're supposed to uphold. If I was the judge here, they'd be dishonorably discharged ASAP.

[Amaretti]

Did anyone see the Fox News interview with this man?

I am not one to bash news programs for bias, but goddamn (:hehee) the number one question they asked him was basically: are you sure you don't believe in God? and they then proceeded to go into the "no atheists in foxholes" strategy.

Seriously, 70% of the clip was that.

That's pretty much how most interviews with atheists go. MSNBC did an interview with an atheist whose daughter was driven out of school after refusing to take part in prayer before a basketball game, and right in the middle of the interview, the reporter suddenly got very hostile, demanding to know why the guy didn't believe in God, what proof he had of no god, etc, etc. It was spectacular, considering the whole story was about how intolerant religious bullies had persecuted an atheist schoolgirl.

I'd like to see a reporter go after someone of another religion like that and randomly start attacking Allah or Vishnu. It's odd how these people believe religious belief should be respected unquestioningly, but atheists are free to be interrogated.

And as for the FOX woman... :facepalm. The guy should have just explained that he doesn't have to justify his lack of belief to her any more than she has to justify her belief in God to him.

[Deamiel]

An officer tried to convert him, and he had to go sit at a different table because he wouldn't pray. Big. Fucking. Deal.

Because it's easy to make a claim. I can claim that the government is putting AIDS in my tap water. But a claim means nothing until it's proven in court.

:facepalm

Um, so, discrimination based on religion isn't a 'big fucking deal?' Strange, seeing as it's illegal.

Well, unlike you, this soldier does have some basis to go on. He has a whole group of people willing to testify against the major. You? "Umm... well... I totally saw this, um, guy put AIDS in my water. Ya ya yah."

Lastly, cases like these, just as you even stated, have happened in the past. Precedence based on previous events. It only makes his case stronger.

And, oh, something you talked about earlier. Actions don't necessarily come from thoughts. I don't like Religion. More specifically, I don't like Christianity. However, if someone that I knew came up to me that I knew for a fact was Christian, I wouldn't treat them any differently. And yes, I would know, I live in a town where 95%+ are Christian.

[Tokoyami]

I watched a minute of that interview and It disgusted me.

ZOMG U NO BELEIVE IN THE GODZORZ LEIK Y?!?!?!?

This stuff seriously makes me wonder what the fuck what wrong with this country.....

[Simulacrum]

Um, so, discrimination based on religion isn't a 'big fucking deal?' Strange, seeing as it's illegal.

Well, unlike you, this soldier does have some basis to go on. He has a whole group of people willing to testify against the major. You? "Umm... well... I totally saw this, um, guy put AIDS in my water. Ya ya yah."

Lastly, cases like these, just as you even stated, have happened in the past. Precedence based on previous events. It only makes his case stronger.

And, oh, something you talked about earlier. Actions don't necessarily come from thoughts. I don't like Religion. More specifically, I don't like Christianity. However, if someone that I knew came up to me that I knew for a fact was Christian, I wouldn't treat them any differently. And yes, I would know, I live in a town where 95%+ are Christian.

I was going to treat this like a serious post, but when I got to the highlighted part I just can't help but think that this is just trolling.

[Deamiel]

I was going to treat this like a serious post, but when I got to the highlighted part I just can't help but think that this is just trolling.

Poor wording on my part. It should've said something along the lines of, "thoughts don't necessarily create action."

Also, your obvious discrimination clearly marks you as more of a troll than anybody.

Lastly, it's very nice to see that you totally didn't answer my part about you approving of actions clearly made illegal by the Constitution. If I were a complete idiot as you seem to imply, I would seriously consider you George W. Bush himself.

[Simulacrum]

Poor wording on my part. It should've said something along the lines of, "thoughts don't necessarily create action." When the beliefs are a lifestyle, yes, yes they do creation action. That's the whole point.

Also, your obvious discrimination clearly marks you as more of a troll than anybody.

Lastly, it's very nice to see that you totally didn't answer my part about you approving of actions clearly made illegal by the Constitution. If I were a complete idiot as you seem to imply, I would seriously consider you George W. Bush himself. The task of the military isn't to be some relativist circle jerking feel-good boyscout camp. Like I said in the beginning, which you clearly can't or simply don't want to understand, their job is to kill and be killed and their objective is to succeed. Not only that, but these guys volunteered for it. It's naive to expect all of these people to be "tolerant" (I'm using quotes to signify your particular type of intolerant tolerance, as I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied for them to have any other kind), and it's just stupid to get your panties in a knot when their religious intolerance is affecting what's probably much less than 1% of the entire enlisted armed forces. They are not a normal social construct, and as such it's to be expected that they're exempt from certain social regulations if those regulations are getting in the way of their ability to succeed. As I also said earlier, if you want an atheist crusade against intolerant Christians in the military then go for it.

But, I'm sure you're so lost in a hyper idealized fantasy world that none of this is getting through to you. If that's the case, then I guess you'll just have to keep on living the hard life of luxury and liberty that these stupid intolerant Christian jerks are dying for.

[Deamiel]

When the beliefs are a lifestyle, yes, yes they do creation action. That's the whole point.

The task of the military isn't to be some relativist circle jerking feel-good boyscout camp. Like I said in the beginning, which you clearly can't or simply don't want to understand, their job is to kill and be killed and their objective is to succeed. Not only that, but these guys volunteered for it. It's naive to expect all of these people to be "tolerant" (I'm using quotes to signify your particular type of intolerant tolerance, as I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied for them to have any other kind), and it's just stupid to get your panties in a knot when their religious intolerance is affecting what's probably much less than 1% of the entire enlisted armed forces. They are not a normal social construct, and as such it's to be expected that they're exempt from certain social regulations if those regulations are getting in the way of their ability to succeed. As I also said earlier, if you want an atheist crusade against intolerant Christians in the military then go for it.

But, I'm sure you're so lost in a hyper idealized fantasy world that none of this is getting through to you. If that's the case, then I guess you'll just have to keep on living the hard life of luxury and liberty that these stupid intolerant Christian jerks are dying for.

"their job is to kill and be killed and their objective is to succeed."

So, holding pro-Christian meetings and practically threatening to commit hate crimes against atheist soldiers is party of their role as soldiers. :oh

"Not only that, but these guys volunteered for it."

Yeah, which makes this even worse. Nobody forced them to do this. They did this because they wanted too. They're putting their lives on the line, and what do they get out of it?

"Sorry, but you atheist trash aren't good enough for this Army. Get the fuck out."

"and it's just stupid to get your panties in a knot when their religious intolerance is affecting what's probably much less than 1% of the entire enlisted armed forces"

The article clearly stated that the vast majority of these cases were not reported.

Also, even if it were less than 1%, does that means it's justified or it doesn't really matter. So, let's say my disliking of Christians actually led me to discriminate against them. Oh, wait, I better only make that 1% of them.

Flawed logic my friend.

"They are not a normal social construct, and as such it's to be expected that they're exempt from certain social regulations if those regulations are getting in the way of their ability to succeed."

Sorry, but they're American citizens. If they don't want to follow 'normal' social regulations, then fine. However, that doesn't give them the right to follow illegal social constructs, does it? No.

"As I also said earlier, if you want an atheist crusade against intolerant Christians in the military then go for it."

Sorry, I'll leave the crusading to extremist right-wing supporters such as yourself.

"If that's the case, then I guess you'll just have to keep on living the hard life of luxury and liberty that these stupid intolerant Christian jerks are dying for."

They're not fighting to save my liberty. They're fighting so that Bush and the Republicans can save face.

"What, they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. Shit. Um... at least keep this war going until I'm out of office, 'kay?" :wink

[Casyle]

Whatever happened to "Thy shall not kill?"

The Hebrew word that was translated from can be translated to kill, murder, slayer, and manslayer. That could be translated to Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Murder, and Thou Shalt Not Slay.

Kill in English is an all-encompassing Verb. The original Hebrew word, Ratsah I think, refers to killing with malice, or criminal intent. IE Murder.

As I understand it the problem stems from the Latin Bible, where Ratsah is translated into English from a Roman word that is closer to how we'd mean kill, not as murder.

The word usage is not wrong, it just doesn't carry the same meaning as our kill.

As to this story, I don't know what to think. I've known people that would say Christianity was pushed on 'em simply because you told them God Bless, God Speed, et cetera.

[Sky]

even thou how much you hate atheists...

its wrong to do that... its against your religion's teachings...

lawl

[Aldrick]

"Mr. Mitchells, why don't you believe in God?"

"Well, Jeff, God told me he doesn't exist."

Problem solved.

Excellent example of taking text out of context and twisting its meaning.

I thought I was telling someone that life in America is not all about being a clone.

[neko-sennin]

...If that's the case, then I guess you'll just have to keep on living the hard life of luxury and liberty that these stupid intolerant Christian jerks and atheists are dying for.

There, now we're reflecting reality.

So, holding pro-Christian meetings and practically threatening to commit hate crimes against atheist soldiers is part of their role as soldiers. :oh

Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know...

They're not fighting to save my liberty. They're fighting so that Bush and the Republicans can save face.

Yeah, pretty much. Somehow this whole mess has left me with less liberty and personal security than before, and this does not inspire confidence.

[Razgriez]

i'm guessing ur christian so of course you never notice :nuts

Obviously you've never paid any attention to any responses Ive given concerning my religious beliefs.

I bet you always thought of me as an rich ignorant evangelical republican. Im actually an agnostic independent with conservative beliefs who thinks the republicans are a little too left and the democrats have gone way off the deep end.

I want less government not more and both parties want more. A lot more, they just want to do it differently.

[DragonBlade]

americans believe in god asshole...u got wut u deserved

[Sean Connery]

what do you expect when you have a bunch of bible thumping jack asses running our goverment, and where does it say we have to be part of a religion in the constitution

[Deamiel]

americans believe in god asshole...u got wut u deserved

Over generalization.

I'm an American, and... well, I don't believe in a god.

[Sean Connery]

americans believe in god asshole...u got wut u deserved

you are very wrong with that statement

[Diceman]

americans believe in god asshole...u got wut u deserved

And I guess you are the spokesperson for every single person in America?Overgeneralize much?
And i'm just wonderin', are you in the armed forces?

[Aina]

Fuckin' Anti-Atheists! :pek

[Sean Connery]

And I guess you are the spokesperson for every single person in America?Overgeneralize much?
And i'm just wonderin', are you in the armed forces?

I'm ex Army and I agree with what the specialist is doing

[Diceman]

I'm ex Army and I agree with what the specialist is doing

Her majesty's army my connery?:awesome

[Sean Connery]

Her majesty's army my connery?:awesome

I was a E-4 Specialist and Corporal

[T4R0K]

americans believe in god asshole...u got wut u deserved

Please define "American" .

Seems like being an atheist excludes someone from being an American ?

And what did you expect from Sir Connery ? He was at her Majesty's fucking service !! (*JB's theme*)

[Aldrick]

Fuckin' Anti-Atheists!

ARE YOU USING PROTECTION:omg

[impersonal]

When the beliefs are a lifestyle, yes, yes they do creation action. That's the whole point.

The task of the military isn't to be some relativist circle jerking feel-good boyscout camp. Like I said in the beginning, which you clearly can't or simply don't want to understand, their job is to kill and be killed and their objective is to succeed. Not only that, but these guys volunteered for it. It's naive to expect all of these people to be "tolerant" (I'm using quotes to signify your particular type of intolerant tolerance, as I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied for them to have any other kind), and it's just stupid to get your panties in a knot when their religious intolerance is affecting what's probably much less than 1% of the entire enlisted armed forces. They are not a normal social construct, and as such it's to be expected that they're exempt from certain social regulations if those regulations are getting in the way of their ability to succeed. As I also said earlier, if you want an atheist crusade against intolerant Christians in the military then go for it.

But, I'm sure you're so lost in a hyper idealized fantasy world that none of this is getting through to you. If that's the case, then I guess you'll just have to keep on living the hard life of luxury and liberty that these stupid intolerant Christian jerks are dying for.
All in all, it's okay (according to you) to have an army that's immoral, intolerant, racist, as long as it kills enemies properly. But if you support an army made of thugs and retards, then why do you think people should be thankful for its actions? Besides, isn't it a bit risky to give a huge firepower to people whose ideals are very much like those of its ennemies (ie., fight for God etc) ?

[Sesshoumaru]

This one had heard of this through scuttlebutt. Only in the Army does dumb shit like this happen.

Unit. Corps. God. Country. Religion does not take precedence over your loyalty to your fellow soldier and the branch you serve in.

[Simulacrum]

All in all, it's okay (according to you) to have an army that's immoral, intolerant, racist, as long as it kills enemies properly. But if you support an army made of thugs and retards, then why do you think people should be thankful for its actions? Besides, isn't it a bit risky to give a huge firepower to people whose ideals are very much like those of its ennemies (ie., fight for God etc) ?
During the secession war, military units remained segregated (up to and including ww2) even when Lincoln made emancipation a major theme of the war.

During the second Great War and in South Korea, the capitalist powers were using the opportunity of the war to dominate the world by spreading capitalism into the enemy nations, who themselves were trying to dominate the world by using war to spread socialism.

Now, during the war on terrorism, we have an army with a large contingent of Christian soldiers willing to fight for God before country against enemies who are superficially similar in their objective.

If we bothered to bend over backwards just to be superficially different from the opposition and forced the military to abide by political agendas, ripping into anyone who steps out of line with those political agendas despite how counter productive it would be to the war effort, then the Confederacy would still exist and we'd all be speaking German.

[Sean Connery]

ARE YOU USING PROTECTION:omg

are you ????

[Kira U. Masaki]

this may be a stupid question, but what is aethism technically considered a religion/belief of its own? ie could you argue for something using the freedom of religion clause under the 1st (not the freedom from part)?

[Sean Connery]

this is what happens when you get morons like Gates and others in the white house, they began to force feed there religous belifes whether we want it or not

[Tsukiyomi]

Wow, what the hell is wrong with this reporter. "Why don't you believe in god?".

Why is it the people who choose not to believe in the invisible man in the sky are the ones treated with contempt and criticism?

[batanga]

Why is it the people who choose not to believe in the invisible man in the sky are the ones treating with contempt and criticism?
Should it be "treated" or without the "not"?

[ThaiKunoichi]

All in all, it's okay (according to you) to have an army that's immoral, intolerant, racist, as long as it kills enemies properly. But if you support an army made of thugs and retards, then why do you think people should be thankful for its actions? Besides, isn't it a bit risky to give a huge firepower to people whose ideals are very much like those of its ennemies (ie., fight for God etc) ?

My mom works for the army too. She used to work for a total jerk! She was supposed to get paid one time, and the dude didn't care at all!:mad Plus, he was a perv cause he was always telling the other female workers to bend over when he dropped something "on accident!" :mad

[ThaiKunoichi]

And by one time, i mean FOR OVER TWO MONTHS!

[Tsukiyomi]

Should it be "treated" or without the "not"?

Fixed, but you know what I meant.

[batanga]

Fixed, but you know what I meant.

Yea, but someone else might've not.


Also @ thai - shoulda sued or somthing, army is full of stuff like that. you cramp that many guys into a small space for that long, mysogyny and anti-gay juices star running. I know.

[Unimportant]

this may be a stupid question, but what is aethism technically considered a religion/belief of its own? ie could you argue for something using the freedom of religion clause under the 1st (not the freedom from part)?

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
You are free to believe what we tell you!

Are you saying that you should be obligated to believe in god(s) because it doesn't specifically state it includes a lack of belief in the freedom?

I guess that means that the freedom of speech only applies to speaking, and if you're silent you can be forced to speak. It doesn't say anything about the freedom not to speak, after all.

[ThaiKunoichi]

She did. She won. GO MOM!

[AnimaSage]

Why is the army getting so picky?
No Gays.
Not fond of other religious people.
:facepalm

[Sesshoumaru]

The general consensus is Do Not Ask; Do Not Tell. If you stand out - ie, creating an extracurricular club such as an atheist club - on a military base, you will gain unwanted attention.

The Union States of America were founded on the concepts of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, with a catholic/christian background engraved into the founding fathers beliefs. The US Armed Forces then and now, while not based or controlled by religion, do have few influences garnered from the founding beliefs of this country. Currently, the US Armed Forces diversity is greater than any other nations armed forces and can be said to comprise of all regilious groups including muslims, hindu and various others, along with many Atheist.

While there is nothing wrong with being an Atheist, grouping together in some sort of club can catch the wrong attention and can be claimed as some form of cult following to pull other service men and women away from their own beliefs. It is a simple fact that if you do not believe in a higher deity, you should not group together in a club to bash the beliefs of others, your armed forces branch and your country.

[impersonal]

It is a simple fact that if you do not believe in a higher deity, you should not group together in a club to bash the beliefs of others, your armed forces branch and your country.
What the hell are you talking about?

[Unimportant]

While there is nothing wrong with being an Atheist, grouping together in some sort of club can catch the wrong attention and can be claimed as some form of cult following to pull other service men and women away from their own beliefs. It is a simple fact that if you do not believe in a higher deity, you should not group together in a club to bash the beliefs of others, your armed forces branch and your country.

Wow.
So automatically if a club is atheist its sole purpose is to be negative in any context. A Christian club however is only there to spread love and good right?

I can feel the level of hypocritical thought rising in this thread.

[Pilaf]

So it's not bashing the beliefs of Atheists when there's a Christian club in the Army, but it's bashing the beliefs of Christians when there's an Atheist club in the army.

Because, ya know, that's a double standard.

[Aokiji]

Wow, what the hell is wrong with this reporter. "Why don't you believe in god?".

Why is it the people who choose not to believe in the invisible man in the sky are the ones treated with contempt and criticism?

Asking someone a question is barely contempt. Also, it's you that treats religious peeps with "contempt" by saying they are stupid for believing into an invisible man in the sky.

[batanga]

I agree on one thing with sesshoumaru, forming any kind of 'social club' in the military is pretty stupid and is bound to attract negative attention. Unless it's a gym club or something.

[GrimaH]

Asking someone a question is barely contempt. Also, it's you that treats religious peeps with "contempt" by saying they are stupid for believing into an invisible man in the sky.

Yes because everyone of us here state that all theists are stupid.
Not to mention that we all are non-religious.
Goddamnit stop stereotyping us you stupid.

[Aokiji]

Yes because everyone of us here state that all theists are stupid.
Not to mention that we all are non-religious.
Goddamnit stop stereotyping us you stupid.

I was talking to Tsukiyomi.

[impersonal]

Asking someone a question is barely contempt. Also, it's you that treats religious peeps with "contempt" by saying they are stupid for believing into an invisible man in the sky.

The man is denied the right to express his beliefs/opinion, but instead of insisting on that point, the journalist treats him as if she's never seen an atheist before.

I don't think it would have happened to a christian soldier persecuted for his beliefs. (I know that's not very likely to happen nowadays).

However you're right about the "invisible man" thing.

[Aokiji]

The man is denied the right to express his beliefs/opinion, but instead of insisting on that point, the journalist treats him as if she's never seen an atheist before.

I don't think it would have happened to a christian soldier persecuted for his beliefs. (I know that's not very likely to happen nowadays).

However you're right about the "invisible man" thing.

The journalist is probably some hick. :lmao

[ThaiKunoichi]

Probably was one...

[Tsukiyomi]

While there is nothing wrong with being an Atheist, grouping together in some sort of club can catch the wrong attention and can be claimed as some form of cult following to pull other service men and women away from their own beliefs. It is a simple fact that if you do not believe in a higher deity, you should not group together in a club to bash the beliefs of others, your armed forces branch and your country.

First off the founding fathers believed in a separation of church and state, call me crazy by I think the army falls under state, not church. Thats why our soldiers don't take orders from the pope.

Secondly where in this article does it say the intention of the club was anything negative at all, let alone to "bash beliefs"?

Third even if he did want to bash religion, he is well within his rights under the constitution to do so. You know, that thing the soldiers are fighting and dying over? They're not fighting for god, they're fighting to protect this country and the rights it provides under the constitution.

Asking someone a question is barely contempt. Also, it's you that treats religious peeps with "contempt" by saying they are stupid for believing into an invisible man in the sky.

I was talking about the people in the military. They were treating him with criticism and contempt. Then when he goes for help this is what he gets, "why don't you believe in god" a question which almost insinuates there is a god and is asking why he chooses not to believe in something real.

Also god is an invisible being a lot of people seem to believe lives above us in the sky. Hence, an invisible man in the sky. I'll admit I have an aversion to religion, but calling god an invisible man is hardly contempt. I consider it an objective view of the subject, i'm not required to treat the idea of god with reverence.

[impersonal]

Also god is an invisible being a lot of people seem to believe lives above us in the sky. Hence, an invisible man in the sky. I'll admit I have an aversion to religion, but calling god an invisible man is hardly contempt. I consider it an objective view of the subject, i'm not required to treat the idea of god with reverence.
"Invisible man" certainly isn't an accurate description of the result of thousands of years of work of thousands of theologians. It's true that many christians seem to believe in an invisible man (mainly those who keep talking about Jesus and what he would do), but you cannot limit christianism to that.

[Tokoyami]

Sorry your right.

The invisible man/women/multiple men and women creatures and a pasta entity that seemingly has to much time on it's hands so gives us stuff/is the force behind everything natural and spiritual despite having some sort of mutiple personality disorder because he kills off whole people yet creates miracles and protects others.

Hmm I think invisible skyman is a better one. Takes less space.

[kulgan18]

Keeping Jefferson's words in historical context, he was speaking out about "religion" and "Christianity" as to what it had devolved into: a tool of the state in enslaving the populace. (attacking Paul is indication enough of this, as Paul is the acclaimed cornerstone of Catholicism and all Popes claim to be in some way descended from him) As those quotes go on, this view only becomes more evident. He is not being "anti-religious" in the modern sense but rather anti-Catholic or against mixing state and religion (whereas Catholicism was founded by mixing original Christianity with pagan Rome), and this is not a surprise since state-controlled religion is what spurred so many people to flee into New World. Also, the idea that the founders where in any way even leaning towards secularism is laughable, as even in their private discourse they make no bones about holding solid faith in the existence of a Creator-God, and their doubts are focused entirely on what men have made of Him.

Do you even know what secularism is?.

Is the separation between religion and institutions. That certainly qualifies to what he was saying.

[impersonal]

Sorry your right.

The invisible man/women/multiple men and women creatures and a pasta entity that seemingly has to much time on it's hands so gives us stuff/is the force behind everything natural and spiritual despite having some sort of mutiple personality disorder because he kills off whole people yet creates miracles and protects others.

Hmm I think invisible skyman is a better one. Takes less space.
My irony detectors are tingling, so I'm going to show you in which way you're being demeaning in a really dishonest way.

You didn't quite get it. Here are a few excerpts took at random from wikipedia. God is an extremely complicated concept which was further complexified by some of the most intelligent men of history, from Plato to Augustine or Kant.

The medieval philosopher Thomas Aquinas, perhaps following the Persian philosopher Avicenna, argued that God is pure being, and that in God essence and existence are the same.
(...)
The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God is one Being Who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three hypostasis [1]: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Since the 4th century, in both Eastern Christianity and Western Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "three persons[2] in one God," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal persons, are of one indivisible Divine essence, a simple being. The doctrine also teaches that the Son himself has two distinct natures, one fully divine and the other fully human, united in a hypostatic union. Support of the doctrine of the Trinity is known as Trinitarianism. Most denominations within Christianity are Trinitarian, and regard belief in the Trinity as a mark of Christian orthodoxy.[3][4]
(...)
In Christianity, Sabellianism (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons in God Himself.
(...)
Ghazali wrote more than 70 books on Islamic sciences, early Islamic philosophy, Islamic psychology, Kalam and Sufism. His 11th century book titled The Incoherence of the Philosophers marks a major turn in Islamic epistemology, as Ghazali effectively discovered philosophical skepticism that would not be commonly seen in the West until René Descartes, George Berkeley and David Hume. The encounter with skepticism led Ghazali to embrace a form of theological occasionalism, or the belief that all causal events and interactions are not the product of material conjunctions but rather the immediate and present will of God.
(...)
Negative theology - also known as the Via Negativa (Latin for "Negative Way") and Apophatic theology - is a theology that attempts to describe God by negation, to speak of God only in terms of what may not be said about God.
(...)
Negative theology has a place in the Western Christian tradition as well, although it is definitely much more of a counter-current to the prevailing positive or cataphatic traditions central to Western Christianity. For example, theologians like Meister Eckhart and St. John of the Cross (San Juan de la Cruz), mentioned above, exemplify some aspects of or tendencies towards the apophatic tradition in the West. The medieval work, The Cloud of Unknowing and St John's Dark Night of the Soul are particularly well-known in the West.

So, "invisible man in the sky" is definitely an erroneous and contempting way of speaking about God.

In addition to that, I can criticize your terminology in a much more direct way. God doesn't have much in common with "a man" (accordingly men are "in his image", but it seems that they're in his image in the same way a painting is in the image of its model). God isn't located in the sky (or anywhere else, since he is infinite). And the fact that he isn't located anywhere makes the visibility/invisibility of God a completely meaningless attribute. What's left of "invisible man in the sky"?


I'm an atheist myself, so I think I know how you feel about the retarded behavior of some religious people. Many of them actually believe in the "invisible skyman", instead of a more complex divinity. But that doesn't mean you should attack religion as whole because of a few idiots - that would be a strawman argument. Such arguments are very commonly used against atheists, I know. It's not a reason to throw back the same kind of crap, especially when you're not hitting just those who attacked you, but all of theists, many of which are tolerant of atheism.


PS: Be careful about grammar: you're, too, its
PS2: "God" takes less space than "invisible skyman".

[Tsukiyomi]

"Invisible man" certainly isn't an accurate description of the result of thousands of years of work of thousands of theologians. It's true that many christians seem to believe in an invisible man (mainly those who keep talking about Jesus and what he would do), but you cannot limit christianism to that.

Just because they put lots of "work" into it doesn't mean that describing him as an invisible man is inaccurate or contemptuous. I find it perfectly apt.

[impersonal]

Just because they put lots of "work" into it doesn't mean that describing him as an invisible man is inaccurate or contemptuous. I find it perfectly apt.

Have you not read my previous post?

In addition to that, I can criticize your terminology in a much more direct way. God doesn't have much in common with "a man" (accordingly men are "in his image", but it seems that they're in his image in the same way a painting is in the image of its model). God isn't located in the sky (or anywhere else, since he is infinite). And the fact that he isn't located anywhere makes the visibility/invisibility of God a completely meaningless attribute. What's left of "invisible man in the sky"?

Describing God as an invisible skyman doesn't make any sense.

[Tsukiyomi]

In addition to that, I can criticize your terminology in a much more direct way. God doesn't have much in common with "a man" (accordingly men are "in his image", but it seems that they're in his image in the same way a painting is in the image of its model).

So assuming that god (as according to the bible) did indeed make us in his image, then he would have a great deal in common with man.

He's invisible, we cannot see him. So hence, INVISIBLE MAN. You have yet to show me how that is somehow inaccurate, and if its not inaccurate its not contemptuous. You cannot say its contemptuous to call someone from Mexico a Mexican.

God isn't located in the sky (or anywhere else, since he is infinite). And the fact that he isn't located anywhere makes the visibility/invisibility of God a completely meaningless attribute. What's left of "invisible man in the sky"?

invisible –adjective

1.not visible; not perceptible by the eye: invisible fluid.
2.withdrawn from or out of sight; hidden: an invisible seam.
3.not perceptible or discernible by the mind: invisible differences.
4.not ordinarily found in financial statements or reflected in statistics or a listing: Goodwill is an invisible asset to a business.
5.concealed from public knowledge. –noun
6.an invisible thing or being.
7.the invisible, the unseen or spiritual world.

Seems to me if he isn't anywhere he is indeed withdrawn from sight. I cannot see him, my eye cannot perceive him. Hence, invisible.

And how often do you hear people thank "the man upstairs" or hear of people "going up into heaven" or "looking down on us from above". Heaven is not literally up in the sky, but a lot of people seem to perceive it that way.

[impersonal]

So assuming that god (as according to the bible) did indeed make us in his image, then he would have a great deal in common with man.

He's invisible, we cannot see him. So hence, INVISIBLE MAN. You have yet to show me how that is somehow inaccurate, and if its not inaccurate its not contemptuous. You cannot say its contemptuous to call someone from Mexico a Mexican.



invisible –adjective

1.not visible; not perceptible by the eye: invisible fluid.
2.withdrawn from or out of sight; hidden: an invisible seam.
3.not perceptible or discernible by the mind: invisible differences.
4.not ordinarily found in financial statements or reflected in statistics or a listing: Goodwill is an invisible asset to a business.
5.concealed from public knowledge. –noun
6.an invisible thing or being.
7.the invisible, the unseen or spiritual world.

Seems to me if he isn't anywhere he is indeed withdrawn from sight. I cannot see him, my eye cannot perceive him. Hence, invisible.

And how often do you hear people thank "the man upstairs" or hear of people "going up into heaven" or "looking down on us from above". Heaven is not literally up in the sky, but a lot of people seem to perceive it that way.

When you say of someone that he's invisible (as in "invisible man"), the implied meaning is translucid, not that he is infinite. But, yeah, you're not completely wrong about the invisibility. You just chosed the demeaning way of qualifiying the concept of God instead of a more precise one.

You still haven't understood why God is not a man, and I'm not going to bother as you don't seem to be willing to understand.

As for the last part (the sky), I have already explained why it's stupid and arrogant to generalize upon the beliefs of a few. Neg rep me back and let's stop the discussion here.

[Tsukiyomi]

When you say of someone that he's invisible (as in "invisible man"), the implied meaning is translucid, not that he is infinite. But, yeah, you're not completely wrong about the invisibility. You just chosed the demeaning way of qualifiying the concept of God instead of a more precise one.

How is it demeaning? It doesn't matter why we can't see him (lets say him being "infinite" means we can't see him) the fact that we can't see him is absolute. Either you can or you can't and we can't, so invisible is perfectly apt.

You have yet to explain how using a word that is 100% accurate is demeaning.

You still haven't understood why God is not a man, and I'm not going to bother as you don't seem to be willing to understand.

Though he wouldn't literally be a man, he would be in the image of a man (since man is supposedly in his image), his form would be that of a man, there is nothing wrong with referring to something by its form.

As for the last part (the sky), I have already explained why it's stupid and arrogant to generalize upon the beliefs of a few. Neg rep me back and let's stop the discussion here.

You were childish enough to neg rep me over this? Wow.