Syria's nuclear reactor bombed by Israel

[Tleilaxu]

EN. Koreans taped at suspected Syrian reactor?
Israelis shared tape ahead of airstrike; Syria denies it was a nuclear site

A suspected nuclear reactor in Syria is shown in an Aug. 5, 2007, satellite image. The facility was bombed by Israeli aircraft last Sept. 6, and the debris cleared away, complicating intelligence efforts to determine its purpose.
AP file

updated 10:52 p.m. CT, Wed., April. 23, 2008
A video taken inside a secret Syrian facility last summer convinced the Israeli government and the Bush administration that North Korea was helping to construct a reactor similar to one that produces plutonium for North Korea's nuclear arsenal, according to senior U.S. officials who said it would be shared with lawmakers today.

The officials said the video of the remote site, code-named Al Kibar by the Syrians, shows North Koreans inside. It played a pivotal role in Israel's decision to bomb the facility late at night last Sept. 6, a move that was publicly denounced by Damascus but not by Washington.

Sources familiar with the video say it also shows that the Syrian reactor core's design is the same as that of the North Korean reactor at Yongbyon, including a virtually identical configuration and number of holes for fuel rods. It shows "remarkable resemblances inside and out to Yongbyon," a U.S. intelligence official said. A nuclear weapons specialist called the video "very, very damning."

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Nuclear weapons analysts and U.S. officials predicted that CIA Director Michael V. Hayden's planned disclosures to Capitol Hill could complicate U.S. efforts to improve relations with North Korea as a way to stop its nuclear weapons program. They come as factions inside the administration and in Congress have been battling over the merits of a nuclear-related deal with North Korea.

Skepticism about site
Syrian Ambassador Imad Moustapha yesterday angrily denounced the U.S. and Israeli assertions. "If they show a video, remember that the U.S. went to the U.N. Security Council and displayed evidence and images about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I hope the American people will not be as gullible this time around," he said.

U.S. officials said that Israel shared the video with the United States before the Sept. 6 bombing, after Bush administration officials expressed skepticism last spring that the facility, visible by satellite since 2001, was a nuclear reactor built with North Korea's assistance. Israel has a nuclear weapons arsenal that it has never declared.

But beginning today, intelligence officials will tell members of the House and Senate intelligence, armed services and foreign relations committees that the Syrian facility was not yet fully operational and that there was no uranium for the reactor and no indication of fuel capability, according to U.S. officials and intelligence sources.

David Albright, president of Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) and a former U.N. weapons inspector, said the absence of such evidence warrants skepticism that the reactor was part of an active weapons program.

"The United States and Israel have not identified any Syrian plutonium separation facilities or nuclear weaponization facilities," he said. "The lack of any such facilities gives little confidence that the reactor is part of an active nuclear weapons program. The apparent lack of fuel, either imported or indigenously produced, also is curious and lowers confidence that Syria has a nuclear weapons program."


U.S. intelligence officials will also tell the lawmakers that the site Syria has built at Al Kibar is not for a reactor. "The successful engagement of North Korea in the six-party talks means that it was unlikely to have supplied Syria with such facilities or nuclear materials after the reactor site was destroyed," Albright said. "Indeed, there is little, if any, evidence that cooperation between Syria and North Korea extended beyond the date of the destruction of the reactor."

The timing of the congressional briefing is nonetheless awkward for the Bush administration's diplomatic initiative to persuade North Korea to abandon its nuclear program and permanently disable the reactor at Yongbyon. The CIA's hand was forced, officials said, because influential lawmakers had threatened to cut off funding for the U.S. diplomatic effort unless they received a full account of what the administration knew.

Also, the terms of a tentative U.S.-North Korean deal require that North Korean officials acknowledge U.S. evidence about its help with the Syrian program, and so the disclosures to Congress are meant to preempt what North Korea may eventually say.

Following talks with the South Korean president last weekend, President Bush said that it was premature to make a judgment about whether North Korea was willing to follow through with a commitment to publicly declare its nuclear-related programs, materials and facilities.

Washington and Pyongyang still differ over what should be included in that declaration, a State Department official said. Sung Kim, the State Department director of the Office of Korean Affairs, is in Pyongyang for discussions about the contents.

Syria: U.S. ‘repeating ... lies and fabrications
Syria's top envoy to Washington said the CIA briefings were meant to undermine diplomatic efforts with North Korea, not to confront Syria. Why, Moustapha said, are "they repeating the same lies and fabrications when they were planning to attack Iraq? The reason is simple: It's about North Korea, not Syria. The neoconservative elements are having the upper hand."

He added, "We do not want to plan to acquire nuclear technology as we understand the reality of this world and have seen what the U.S. did to Iraq even when it did not have a nuclear program. So we are not going to give them a pretext to attack Syria."

The facility at issue used to include a tall, boxy structure that once housed a gas-graphite reactor, and was located seven miles north of the desert village of At Tibnah in the Dayr az Zawr region, 90 miles from the Iraqi border, according to photographs released by the ISIS, a nonprofit research group.

The White House and the CIA declined to comment on the briefings.


© 2008 The Washington Post Company

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24283796

I wonder if they also were getting Iranian help at that reactor? :zaru

[narutosimpson]

they were getting korean help. I'm not a big fan of korea, one side host our military base , the other side get's the nukes and helps supposed enemies build nukes too. WTF? that's a just a money vacuum defending one half and defending from the other half :mad

[Willaien]

they were getting korean help. I'm not a big fan of korea, one side host our military base , the other side get's the nukes and helps supposed enemies build nukes too. WTF?

North Korea and South Korea are separate countries. Do not hold the actions of one against the other.

[narutosimpson]

North Korea and South Korea are separate countries. Do not hold the actions of one against the other.

split country, same language and culture and genes. they divided themselves, it's not my problem how to classify them

[Black Wraith]

Now all we need to do is bomb America's, Israhell's, India's and the other countries with nuclear reactors.

[Willaien]

split country, same language and culture and genes. they divided themselves, it's not my problem how to classify them

And the same culture that spawned Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps) spawned Rosa Parks and many others.

Again, do not judge people for the actions of others.

[Saufsoldat]

Shouldn't there be some nuclear fallout like in Chernobyl after they bomb a nuclear reactor? :huh Or did I get something wrong?

[narutosimpson]

Shouldn't there be some nuclear fallout like in Chernobyl after they bomb a nuclear reactor? :huh Or did I get something wrong?

that makes sense, must of been in the mountains or underground.

@black fenix: i don't know what the problem with this reactor was, that it was secretive, or that syria is still an antagonist to isreal, or just to show iran. Even the OP bitches about Iran b4 he calls out N.Korea.

[Vom Osten]

that makes sense, must of been in the mountains or underground.

@black fenix: i don't know what the problem with this reactor was, that it was secretive, or that syria is still an antagonist to isreal, or just to show iran. Even the OP bitches about Iran b4 he calls out N.Korea.

Its not even mildly suprising that Iran might have been involved.

[narutosimpson]

there is not even a mention of iran in the article, talk shit much?

[Megaharrison]

Now all we need to do is bomb America's, Israhell's, India's and the other countries with nuclear reactors.

It amuses me to no end how you claim to be a "moderate" Muslim yet spout hatred like this. Honestly you help our cause more then anything with that nonsense.

Anyway, we're in a state of war with Syria currently and this was simply a sortie in that conflict. Perhaps if Syria wants to develop nuclear capabilities they could make peace first then build a civilian reactor, like Egypt is currently doing. Egypt's reactor will not get bombed as they're not our enemy. However all enemies between the Nile and Tigris will not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. Basic self-defense.

At the same time Israel should remain the only nuclear armed power in the region. If more states start getting nuclear weapons then the balance of power will be in jeopardy, and nuclear arms racing likely. We've had hundreds of warheads for nearly 40 years and nothing bad has ever come of it. As long as the Arabs cease with their aggression there's no reason for them to even worry about it.

That is all hypothetical of course. We've yet to confirm our nuclear status :LOS

[ANBUBooBoo]

split country, same language and culture and genes. they divided themselves, it's not my problem how to classify them

By your logic the United States, Canada and England should all be classified as the same and have their actions judged as representative of all 3 countries.

Also, the cultures of north and south Korea are substantially different, they only share the same heritage.

Anywho, I'm not even going to pretend I understand all this nuclear politics. It all seems so ass-backwards to me. But this is why we should be putting more effort into developing fusion reactors; little to no chance of meltdown, and the technology used in a fusion reactor can't secretly be applied to the production of nuclear weapons.

[Razgriez]

Anywho, I'm not even going to pretend I understand all this nuclear politics. It all seems so ass-backwards to me. But this is why we should be putting more effort into developing fusion reactors; little to no chance of meltdown, and the technology used in a fusion reactor can't secretly be applied to the production of nuclear weapons.

For one fusion technology is kind of far beyond their current capabilities and secondly it doesnt produce super powerful weapons that can hold their enemies at bay.

[Willaien]

For one fusion technology is kind of far beyond their current capabilities and secondly it doesnt produce super powerful weapons that can hold their enemies at bay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb

Modern nuclear weapons use a fission reaction to cause a fusion reaction.

It's not that hard of a design.

[Razgriez]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb

Modern nuclear weapons use a fission reaction to cause a fusion reaction.

Yeah but for nations just starting an nuclear program havent developed these types of nuclear weapons and are still trying to develop atom bombs like the ones used in WW2.

[Willaien]

Yeah but for nations just starting an nuclear program havent developed these types of nuclear weapons and are still trying to develop atom bombs like the ones used in WW2.

Basically just poke a packet of fusionable material (hydrogen) next to the part that goes boom. ><

[Ennoea]

Ah Israels making friends again I see, and people wander why the neighbouring countries want Nuclear Weapons too.

[Lezard Valeth]

It seems like all the countries who hate Israel are building nuclear arsenal, which is their right of course, and of course Israel will try their best to stop them but in the end Israel will be surrounded by nuclear powers, it's just a matter of time.

[Razgriez]

It seems like all the countries who hate Israel are building nuclear arsenal, which is their right of course, and of course Israel will try their best to stop them but in the end Israel will be surrounded by nuclear powers, it's just a matter of time.

and no one will get the holy land cause it will be nuked into oblivion.

[Megaharrison]

It seems like all the countries who hate Israel are building nuclear arsenal, which is their right of course, and of course Israel will try their best to stop them but in the end Israel will be surrounded by nuclear powers, it's just a matter of time.

This sounds like delusional wishful thinking on your part. Both Iraq and Syria are Israel's only immediate neighbors that have tried to obtain nuclear weapons, and both failed. "Surrounded by people who hate it"? You do realize the majority of states that surround Israel aren't even its enemies anymore right? Syria and Lebanon are the only ones that count. Syria is on the verge of making peace. Lebanon is in political shambles.

Iran will probably be the only enemy state of Israel to get nuclear weapons. But they should remember we have hundreds of times of more nukes then they do and if they ever try anything, they'll be wiped off the map as well.

[Lezard Valeth]

It amuses me to no end how you claim to be a "moderate" Muslim yet spout hatred like this. Honestly you help our cause more then anything with that nonsense.

I can tell from your posts you aren't moderate either. You fuel phobia whenever you can. The both of you are equally moderate IMO, you're no extremists, but still shouting hatred toward the other clan, only he doesn't do it as often as you do.

This sounds like delusional wishful thinking on your part. Both Iraq and Syria are Israel's only immediate neighbors that have tried to obtain nuclear weapons, and both failed. "Surrounded by people who hate it"? You do realize the majority of states that surround Israel aren't even its enemies anymore right? Syria and Lebanon are the only ones that count. Syria is on the verge of making peace. Lebanon is in political shambles.

Iran will probably be the only enemy state of Israel to get nuclear weapons. But they should remember we have hundreds of times of more nukes then they do and if they ever try anything, they'll be wiped off the map as well.Dunno, who knows how advanced the nuclear power of Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, who are "allies" who can turn on you anytime. Iraq still has potential with great nuclear scientists. And finally there is Iran of course. Not to mention Pakistan who has a huge nuclear arsenal and could wipe Israel on a whim. Honnestly I wouldn't want to live in Israel, because I'd fear for my life every day.

I don't hate Jews, there are a lot of pacifist and innocent Israeli people who only want to live their lives without hurting others, I will have a prayer for these people who deserve a happy life but who may die due to Israel brutality as a whole.

[Black Wraith]

It amuses me to no end how you claim to be a "moderate" Muslim yet spout hatred like this. Honestly you help our cause more then anything with that nonsense.

Anyway, we're in a state of war with Syria currently and this was simply a sortie in that conflict. Perhaps if Syria wants to develop nuclear capabilities they could make peace first then build a civilian reactor, like Egypt is currently doing. Egypt's reactor will not get bombed as they're not our enemy. However all enemies between the Nile and Tigris will not be allowed to develop nuclear weapons. Basic self-defense.

At the same time Israel should remain the only nuclear armed power in the region. If more states start getting nuclear weapons then the balance of power will be in jeopardy, and nuclear arms racing likely. We've had hundreds of warheads for nearly 40 years and nothing bad has ever come of it. As long as the Arabs cease with their aggression there's no reason for them to even worry about it.

That is all hypothetical of course. We've yet to confirm our nuclear status :LOS
I first I didn't like the Israeli government just like the American one where I thought that the people are not the ones to be blamed.

But after my visit to Palastine I will tell you one thing:
I FUKIN' HATE ISRAELI'S
This is from personal experience, from the second we (Mostly women and little childeren under 10) were looked at with hatred from everyone else on the way to Tel Aviv, on the plane we were treated like shit and once we got to Tel Aviv airport we were treated like even more shit. I gained respect there for the Christians, for the way they acted with us and loss any sort of respect I did have for Israeli's before.

Also all the stories I heard from both the Muslims and the Christians there were all negative.

I don't like Israel from personal experience, so don't tell me not to stop saying I don't like Israel.

[Aokiji]

Hey Harrison, would you be okay if Israel was renamed into Palestine and there's no difference between Israelis and Palestines, only that Israelis are Jewish Palestinians and the rest are muslim Palestinians. I think that's the best. That would be a way to achieve peace.

[Lezard Valeth]

Hey Harrison, would you be okay if Israel was renamed into Palestine and there's no difference between Israelis and Palestines, only that Israelis are Jewish Palestinians and the rest are muslim Palestinians. I think that's the best. That would be a way to achieve peace.

And what about Christians Palestinians lol? But that would be nice, but the extremists from both sides will never allow that.

[Believe It!]

Good for Israel! :clap Woo hoo! They need to have this kind of matza if they want to win! American should support Israel in this. Believe it!

[Megaharrison]

I can tell from your posts you aren't moderate either. You fuel phobia whenever you can. The both of you are equally moderate IMO, you're no extremists, but still shouting hatred toward the other clan, only he doesn't do it as often as you do.

Dunno, who knows how advanced the nuclear power of Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, who are "allies" who can turn on you anytime. Iraq still has potential with great nuclear scientists. And finally there is Iran of course. Not to mention Pakistan who has a huge nuclear arsenal and could wipe Israel on a whim. Honnestly I wouldn't want to live in Israel, because I'd fear for my life every day.

I don't hate Jews, there are a lot of pacifist and innocent Israeli people who only want to live their lives without hurting others, I will have a prayer for these people who deserve a happy life but who may die due to Israel brutality as a whole.

Lol, nearly 70 times more people died of murder in the UK in 2007 then of terrorism and other such Muslim violence in Israel. You're just paranoid by what you see on TV.

You don't seem to understand the concept of MAD or how nuclear politics works. Russia, China, and America could blow your country away with nukes on a whim as well. Tensions between Israel and Pakistan (are there currently any anyway?) are nothing compared to those of the US and Soviet Union during the Cold War, the world survived. Why? Mutually Assured Destruction. You can gloat about x Muslim country with nukes being able to wipe Israel out all you want, but remember Israel can do the exact same thing back, on a far larger scale. This is why nuclear war is extremely unlikely to occur. Even Iran values its own existence more then destroying Israel, which is why they won't destroy themselves by ever nuking it.

And apparently Black Fenix and I are hardly the same. He has just openly boasted about hating every single Israeli, 7 million people. He's been to Israel and didn't like it, omg!!! What a baby.

I've been to Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey and wasn't fond of all save the latter. Do I hate all Egyptians and Jordanians? No. I don't hate all Muslims, simply those who wish for my nations and my families destruction. This translates into a great many Muslims sadly.

Black Fenix has never even been significantly harmed by an Israeli, I've had Muslims firing rockets at my hometown and having to deal with the weekly suicide bombings of the Second Intifada. Do I hate all Muslims? No. Not only is he blinded by hatred, but for apparently no reason as he's never experienced this war. This is why I am a better person then him.

On top of that I support the creation of a Palestinian state while he supports Israel's unilateral destruction. I support a peaceful solution and he supports war. Both extremists my ass. I thank him once again for providing me with a propaganda victory.

Hey Harrison, would you be okay if Israel was renamed into Palestine and there's no difference between Israelis and Palestines, only that Israelis are Jewish Palestinians and the rest are muslim Palestinians. I think that's the best. That would be a way to achieve peace.

That's really not a realistic solution anymore due to the mutual hatred on both sides. You'd have Palestinians claming they lived in x apartment in Tel Aviv, only finding there is now an Israeli family living there. This includes women and children. You'd advocate forcefully removing the Israeli family I bet, on the justification of one group having prior claims to the land.

But wait....Isn't this what you bash Israel for in the first place? Oh damn why it is! Israeli's will now apparently have an excuse to fire rockets on a daily basis on these people, and they can also target their women and children in suicide bombings. It's completely justified after all, they got their homes taken away! I assume you've understood how this cycle goes now. At the same time calling it "Palestine" would be a misnomer due to a massive Israeli population that would exist. Unification is overall impossible.

A two state solution is the only option that would be beneficial to the Palestinians. We could occupy the West Bank indefinitely and blow Gaza into oblivion, neither would hurt us very much. However that would be far too immoral and at the same time babysitting these people is a massive waste of time, energy, and money.

[Empirejoao]

Heh...the only reason Israel even has the capability to produce nuclear weapons is America and the Western Powers. I don't see why they have the right the prevent anyone from obtaining them, especially as you (Megaharrison) say yourself they won't be stupid enough to use them even if they do obtain them.


Why can't they have nuclear weapons as a deterrence against Israel?

I really don't like a lot of what Israel is doing.

[AbnormallyNormal]

1) a reactor is not a weapon
2) israel has 100's of real nuke weapons and several reactors (all illegal)
3) israel has zero right to bomb other nations for any reason other than threat of direct attack, which there obviously was not here
4) this supposed reactor was not even supplied with fuel or operational
5) syria has every right to build or aquire weapons in an effort to achieve some sort of parity with the regional superpower, israel, which is incredibly hostile and bullying to syira. see: this very incident

[Tleilaxu]

Now all we need to do is bomb America's, Israhell's, India's and the other countries with nuclear reactors.

Yes because ALL these nations have vowed to wipe Syria off the map and push them back into the sea. Sorry but The fucktards in the middle east have NO right to have this technology while they still continue to pursue the goal of destroying Israel or other western nations.

[hcheng02]

I first I didn't like the Israeli government just like the American one where I thought that the people are not the ones to be blamed.

But after my visit to Palastine I will tell you one thing:
I FUKIN' HATE ISRAELI'S
This is from personal experience, from the second we (Mostly women and little childeren under 10) were looked at with hatred from everyone else on the way to Tel Aviv, on the plane we were treated like shit and once we got to Tel Aviv airport we were treated like even more shit. I gained respect there for the Christians, for the way they acted with us and loss any sort of respect I did have for Israeli's before.

Also all the stories I heard from both the Muslims and the Christians there were all negative.

I don't like Israel from personal experience, so don't tell me not to stop saying I don't like Israel.

How did these Israelis look at you again? How were you treated like shit? Are you sure you're not imagining things?

[narutosimpson]

wat black fenix said doesn't surprise me, sometimes i leave my house and am greeted with suspicioun and treated like shit , god bless the US :salute

[Tleilaxu]

How come people dont realize its the Palistinians fault that they are in the position they are in? They elected a governemnt that wants Israel destroyed, they fail to stop the rocket attacks and bombing of Israel yet they COMPLAIN when Israel retailiates against these attacks? Thats flawed logic if you ask me. Now if the Palistinians actually tried to make an effort to come to peace with Israel and be reasonable, then I might be more supportive of Palistinians plight but not as they are behaving now.

On topic Syria supports and funds terrorists. NO NATION such as that deserves nuclear power or weapons.

[Nemesis]

So you saying that the palestinians should have voted Fatah which before the elections took all the aid and kept it for themselves over a Group that basically gave the palestinians homes, shelter, schools and hospitals. Yeah Hamas have been responsible for attacking Israel but at the same time they did a lot more for the average palestinian that Fatah ever did. Not like they had much of a choice really since there were no real 3rd party choice.

[Sky is Over]

On topic Syria supports and funds terrorists. NO NATION such as that deserves nuclear power or weapons.

I agree with you on this. *even though my view is more extended to where nuclear weapons shouldn't be proliferated to anymore countries.*

And when the attack occured a few months back and it had a NK link to it, this was actually my first suspicion. It's always good to be right. :laugh

[Believe It!]

Yes because ALL these nations have vowed to wipe Israel off the map and push them back into the sea. Sorry but The fucktards in the middle east have NO right to have this technology while they still continue to pursue the goal of destroying Israel or other western nations.

Fixed. :salute

[Tleilaxu]

So you saying that the palestinians should have voted Fatah which before the elections took all the aid and kept it for themselves over a Group that basically gave the palestinians homes, shelter, schools and hospitals. Yeah Hamas have been responsible for attacking Israel but at the same time they did a lot more for the average palestinian that Fatah ever did. Not like they had much of a choice really since there were no real 3rd party choice.

What I am saying is that they should take responcibity for there actions and situation. If they want the blockade to end and bombing to cease then they should reconise Israel's right to exist and stop the terrorists from attacking Israel, or better yet expel them from Palistine all together. Then Israel will no longer have any cause to be blockading or bombing them. Why cant they see that? To me thats common sense.

@ Believe it! I was reffering to BF's post that other countires with nuclear reactors should be bombed by sarcastically saying that they had vowed to wipe Israel off the map. (India, USA ect ect) LOL Still I agree with your fixation! :salute

[Tokoyami]

Bah if you want a really big bomb go with A-matter.

[moneeeb]

hmmm..so we shall hope for a war this summer !!!!!!:nuts

whats the population of the jews???? 5 million around the world

whats the population of Isreal????

there is more than 1 billion muslims who are upset and very angry, this will back fire one day...

siding with the minority and upseting a majority is very bad equation.


yare yare..the Siryan government sucks anyways....I hope they would prodcast the war live on Tv...for the fans in The US and The Humane world:nod

[hcheng02]

hmmm..so we shall hope for a war this summer !!!!!!:nuts

whats the population of the jews???? 5 million around the world

whats the population of Isreal????

there is more than 1 billion muslims who are upset and very angry, this will back fire one day...

siding with the minority and upseting a majority is very bad equation.


yare yare..the Siryan government sucks anyways....I hope they would prodcast the war live on Tv...for the fans in The US and The Humane world:nod

You highly overestimate the cohesion and unity of Muslims. The majority of Muslims who want to destroy Israel are those in the Middle East, who not coincidentally are Arabs who want to erase their shame of losing several wars to the country despite overwhelming numbers and weaponry during the 1950s-1970s. The rest of the Muslims in the world could barely give a shit about Israel. They are nowhere near it, Israel poses no threat to them, and they got bigger things to worry about. The fact that most Muslim countries are frankly riven with poverty, corruption, and are much militarily weaker than Israel doesn't hurt either. Hell, alot of Muslims can't even make peace with other Muslims. See the Shiite VS Sunni as an example. The idea that Muslim countries would attack Israel willy nilly is absurd. Pakistan has more than enough problems without picking a fight with someone who means no harm. Not to mention it would leave itself open to attacks from countries like India and the Taliban. Israel might be small, but its disciplined and organized.

100 disciplined troops >>>> 1000 ignorant rabble.

[moneeeb]

You highly overestimate the cohesion and unity of Muslims. The majority of Muslims who want to destroy Israel are those in the Middle East, who not coincidentally are Arabs who want to erase their shame of losing several wars to the country despite overwhelming numbers and weaponry during the 1950s-1970s. The rest of the Muslims in the world could barely give a shit about Israel. They are nowhere near it, Israel poses no threat to them, and they got bigger things to worry about. The fact that most Muslim countries are frankly riven with poverty, corruption, and are much militarily weaker than Israel doesn't hurt either. Hell, alot of Muslims can't even make peace with other Muslims. See the Shiite VS Sunni as an example. The idea that Muslim countries would attack Israel willy nilly is absurd. Pakistan has more than enough problems without picking a fight with someone who means no harm. Not to mention it would leave itself open to attacks from countries like India and the Taliban. Israel might be small, but its disciplined and organized.

100 disciplined troops >>>> 1000 ignorant rabble.

There is some truth to what you said...but what I disagree with ...I believe the majority of muslims are upset from the Isreal situation....Pakistan Indonisia, North African countries, Iran,,, and finally the middle east....I bet you my left arm, that all those countries one way or another have some degree of negative thoughts against Isreal...Westren Muslims are very diffrent, they have their own agenda...so dont base your thoughts on them and their views,, regardless of their origin.


have a nice day

[Sean Connery]

they were getting korean help. I'm not a big fan of korea, one side host our military base , the other side get's the nukes and helps supposed enemies build nukes too. WTF? that's a just a money vacuum defending one half and defending from the other half :mad

North Korea want to snuff south korea out

[hcheng02]

There is some truth to what you said...but what I disagree with ...I believe the majority of muslims are upset from the Isreal situation....Pakistan Indonisia, North African countries, Iran,,, and finally the middle east....I bet you my left arm, that all those countries one way or another have some degree of negative thoughts against Isreal...Westren Muslims are very diffrent, they have their own agenda...so dont base your thoughts on them and their views,, regardless of their origin.

have a nice day

Plenty of people have negative thoughts about Israel, which would be a problem if it was trying to win some global popularity contest. Except it isn't, and Israel has shown no hesitation in pissing off inconsequential nobodies when it comes to defending itself, especially when these people don't have Israel's bests interests at heart in the first place. Desire for popularity should not take the place of firm, sensible policies. Middle East Muslims are Arabs who hate Israel no matter what, and thats old news for Israel considering how they've fought a couple wars over the Arab's obsessive hatred. It should also be noted that although they hate Israel, they know that its here to stay and the most sensible ones have grudgingly made peace with it knowing that waging war against it is a hopeless endeavor. Indonesia is halfway across the world from Israel and I have a hard time imagining that it poses any threat to Israel. The worst thing Indonesia does is trash talk, and even that is really rare. North African Muslim countries can barely feed themselves, let alone launch an attack at a first world country thats a regional power. I already described why Pakistan won't wantonly make an enemy for no reason. Iran itself is in a bit of trouble, with the UN sanctions over its pursuit of nuclear powers. Worst case scenario is that Israel bombs the reactors like they did with Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Muslims may be numerous, but most of them are too poor, oppressed, uneducated and divided among themselves to really merit real alarm on Israel's part. The Muslims in those countries are too busy trying to ensure tomorrow's bread than launch some holy war on Israel.

[The Sentry]

I love what Isreal is doing and support them 100%. All these muslim countries are like a dagger being pointed at Isreals throat.

[Ennoea]

Israel did something Illegal.

I love what Isreal is doing and support them 100%. All these muslim countries are like a dagger being pointed at Isreals throat.

Isreal is opressing Palestine and threatens everyone around itself. If anything Israel's the dagger.

[The Sentry]

Israel did something Illegal.



Isreal is opressing Palestine and threatens everyone around itself. If anything Israel's the dagger.

A little country surrounded by people who want to wipe it out of existance?
Its funny how Palestinians didnt call themselves such..until the creation of Isreal. Given the chance The North African countries and The Middle Eastern countries would wipe em out.
Isreal is like the fox being backed into a corner by hounds.....it will rip your throat out

[hcheng02]

Israel did something Illegal.

Isreal is opressing Palestine and threatens everyone around itself. If anything Israel's the dagger.

Israel and Syria are technically still in a state of war. Attacking the reactor was a military response to deny the enemy a potent weapon. Its neither illegal nor morally wrong. Israel only threatens its enemies. It does not threaten countries who do not threaten it like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Nor does it threaten countries that make peace with it like Jordan and Egypt. Blaming Israel for threatening people who try to destroy it is like punching into a bees nest and complaining when it stings you.

[id_1948]

Syrian has nuclear weapons developed by N. Korea

The above statement is bought to you by the same people who said the Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, Nuclear grade material from Nigeria and extensive links with Al-qaida

Ill be very sceptical of anything coming out of these two...

And if Syria really had a nuclear program there is a proper way to confront it. Its called the UN and nuclear watchdog. The way this was done evidence is destroyed. No record is kept and everyone is in the dark.

Israel and Syria are technically still in a state of war. Attacking the reactor was a military response to deny the enemy a potent weapon. Its neither illegal nor morally wrong. Israel only threatens its enemies. It does not threaten countries who do not threaten it like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Nor does it threaten countries that make peace with it like Jordan and Egypt. Blaming Israel for threatening people who try to destroy it is like punching into a bees nest and complaining when it stings you

I guess if tw syria launches a few rockets at some israeli military installations then its perfectly ok, acceptable behaviour and no condemnation should be expected from the international community.

[Lezard Valeth]

What if Syria blew up Israel nuclear reactors? Would that be condemned? If so, then why not this? Double standards?

[Sean Connery]

so when can we call this world war 3

[Aokiji]

I love what Isreal is doing and support them 100%. All these muslim countries are like a dagger being pointed at Isreals throat.

What's wrong Sentry? Did you get bullied by Pakis as a kid? :hehee

[The Sentry]

What's wrong Sentry? Did you get bullied by Pakis as a kid? :hehee

Na i lived in Londonistan and hate the way that muslims are "always in the right".
Countries like the U.S and Isreal dont and wont use their weapons to delibrately wipe out a country....if backwards Muslim countries....like the ones in the middle east and north africa had nuclear capabilities...goodbye Isreal and weak european countries....expect a never ending War...because when one extremist dies 1000000000 take his place.

[hcheng02]

Syrian has nuclear weapons developed by N. Korea

The above statement is bought to you by the same people who said the Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, Nuclear grade material from Nigeria and extensive links with Al-qaida

Ill be very sceptical of anything coming out of these two...

Mossad is generally a lot more accurate about things like this.

And if Syria really had a nuclear program there is a proper way to confront it. Its called the UN and nuclear watchdog. The way this was done evidence is destroyed. No record is kept and everyone is in the dark.


Yeah, just look at how effective the UN's has been in preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons... oh wait. Not to mention that the UN has traditionally been hostile to Israel.

I guess if tw syria launches a few rockets at some israeli military installations then its perfectly ok, acceptable behaviour and no condemnation should be expected from the international community.

Syria has been at war with Israel for decades, has launched several invasions in the past, and sponsors terrorists groups that wish to destroy Israel. Its now trying to get a nuclear weapon from a rogue state (North Korea) which would threaten the very existence of Israel. Thus the reactor is a legitimate target and everyone knows it.

[Lezard Valeth]

Not to mention that the UN has traditionally been hostile to Israel.

UN doesn't approve the slaughter of innocent civilians. It's not hostility, it's common sense. Nazis have nothing on Israel on the atrocities department.

[hcheng02]

UN doesn't approve the slaughter of innocent civilians. It's not hostility, it's common sense. Nazis have nothing on Israel on the atrocities department.

LOL WHAT? Now this is solid proof that your anti-Israel hate blinds you to facts and reason.

So the IDF forces the Palestinians into gas chambers and ovens and makes them into soap and lampshades? Is the IDF building death camps all around the Gaza and West Bank? Is the IDF using the Palestinians for biological experiments? In six years (from 1939-1945) the Nazis killed 6 million Jews , most of whom never fought against them. Compare that to the 2nd intifada, which lasted 8 years, the IDF killed about 5,000 Palestinians most of whom were militants that were actively attacking them. The IDF actively tries to reduce casualties and gives medical support to the Palestinians. Israel has negotiated with the Palestinians and offered them an independent state, and it still supports the two state plan. When has the Nazis ever tried to give the Jews a state? Furthermore, do you think the Nazis would have cared about things like humanitarian aid and international approval? During the siege in Gaza, the IDF still allows transport of food and medicine. The Palestinians are not happy or comfortable there, but neither are they dropping like flies and starving to death. That was not the case in the death camps where starvation was one of the main killers. Thats not even mentioning the fact that Arabs in Israel can vote and have equal rights as citizens. The Nazis didn't kill Jews everywhere else in Europe and treat them well in Germany.

I suggest you actually read up on the Nazis and the Holocaust before you make such accusations. If the IDF acted like Nazis there would literally be no more Palestinians anymore.

As for the UN being unfriendly towards Israel, its basically the whole "pick on the vulnerable minority" except on an international scale. Plenty of the countries in the UN have way shittier human rights problems than Israel but Israel is the only one who gets called out on it.

http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11090832

TWO years ago, the 60-year-old UN Commission on Human Rights was dumped. Kofi Annan, who was then the UN's secretary-general, gave the reason: the world's worst abusers had used the agency “to protect themselves against criticism or to criticise others”. When its successor, the Human Rights Council, started up a couple of months later, he urged it not to “squander” the new opportunity.

Many feel the council has done just that. Dominated by the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and the Non-Aligned Movement, the new body stands accused of being just as politicised, and just as intent on one-sided Israel-bashing, as its predecessor. Most human-rights organisations say privately that they are bitterly disappointed.

Among the complaints: its inclusion as members of some serial human-rights abusers; its decision to stand down “special rapporteurs” for Cuba, Belarus and Congo; and its failure to protect the integrity of the Office of the High Commissioner on Human Rights. Press-freedom groups were appalled last month when the council's Islamic members, backed by Russia and China, pushed through a resolution saying free speech could be limited out of “respect for religions and beliefs”.

Its defenders say the council should be given a chance to improve. Yes, they say, it replicates many of the former body's failures: with so many of the same states, often represented by the same people, sitting (literally) in the same seats, instant change could not be expected. “It's not yet what I want, and is still far from what we should aim for,” says Luis Alfonso de Alba, a Mexican who was the first holder of the council's annually rotating presidency.

He thinks the council may stand or fall by a new process, known as universal periodic review. This marks the main difference between the council and its predecessor. The commission often focused on just a dozen states, which complained they were singled out because they lacked enough big friends to keep critics at bay. In a way they were right: abuses by weak or friendless countries (Cambodia, Somalia, North Korea, Sudan) were denounced, but similar sins by, say, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan were passed over.

Now, everyone—including the Security Council's permanent five—must submit to a peer review every four years, with hearings held in public and webcast live. Critics fear a charade; defenders say the process should be given a chance to work.

Under the review system, three reports are made: one by the country itself in collaboration with local NGOs; another by the Office of the High Commissioner with input from other UN bodies; and a third by international human-rights groups. After studying these reports, council members get three hours to quiz the country under review. An assessment by three council members, with recommendations, is then presented to the council.

Hearings for the first 16 countries were completed last week. Most states prepared carefully; many fielded big delegations headed by a minister. Next month's second lot of hearings, including Pakistan, may be a tougher test. Some abusers could try to wreck the process by filibustering, but that will be caught on camera. Serial offenders may tell their critics to get lost, but that does not mean that the process isn't being taken seriously—by the accused or by the accusers. The review could sway decisions on multilateral aid, and embolden local activists.

If the council's workings sound arcane, that is because its birth pangs were long. When a panel on UN reform first suggested replacing the “discredited” 53-member commission, it mooted a council of leading human-rights experts from all the UN's 192 member states. This was rejected by Mr Annan, who adopted the American idea of a smaller, more focused body of 20 to 30 members, committed to upholding the “highest standards” of human rights.

After much haggling there emerged a 47-member group, barely smaller than its predecessor. Elected by a simple majority of the General Assembly (instead of the proposed two-thirds majority), its members faced no prior test other than a “voluntary pledge” on human rights. Many of the worst rights offenders have avoided standing for election. But China, Cuba, Russia and Saudi Arabia are back on.

A claimed strength of the new council is the fact that it is at work most of the time. The old commission met for a single six-week session once a year; this council sits for at least ten weeks a year in three regular sessions, plus “special” sessions, called by at least one-third of members, as the need arises. No longer are emergencies ignored if they occur at the wrong time.

What few foresaw was the extent to which Islamic states would use this procedure to single out Israel. Four of the six special sessions called so far, and almost all the single-country resolutions, have been devoted to Israel. Two special sessions have been held on Myanmar and Darfur, but nothing has been said about human-rights issues in China, Zimbabwe, Colombia, Iran, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Cuba or Belarus.

Sponsors of the anti-Israel resolutions insist that there is no other forum where they can denounce acts that are widely agreed to violate international law: the use of cluster bombs, the blockade of Gaza, ill-treatment of detainees, “targeted killings” and so on. When they try to raise such matters at the Security Council, they say, they face an American veto. Arguably, however, Israel-bashing simply masks the council's reluctance to tackle other issues.

The Muslim and non-aligned states often blame the West for focusing on abuses in poor countries while ignoring its own faults. But they rarely take any action in the council over alleged rich-world misdeeds such as the mistreatment of terror suspects. That may be because poor, angry countries hesitate to threaten their relationship with powerful partners and aid donors by taunting them over human rights. Easier to home in on Israel.

Of the council's 47 current members, 23—just one shy of an absolute majority—are ranked by Freedom House, an American think-tank, as “free”, compared with only ten described as “not free”. Why don't the “free” states form a counterweight to the Islamic and non-aligned blocks? Perhaps because they don't want to tie their hands in the broader trade-offs that are going on all over the UN system, including some 17 bodies in Geneva alone. Deals over “more important” issues, like trade, are constantly being done in Geneva's corridors; civil liberties can easily lose out.

Human rights are one of the three pillars on which the UN is supposed to rest. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed 60 years ago, is seen as a great achievement. But there is huge disagreement about which rights matter most. The rich world says priority should be given to civil and political rights; poorer countries say economic, social and cultural rights matter more. The new council has emerged at a time when such debates are especially sharp. But after barely two years, hopes of a real dialogue are fading in the face of the obsession with Israel.

In January America denounced a session at which the council condemned Israel's actions in Gaza but refused to criticise Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel. It was right, said Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, to keep following conditions in Gaza. But “I would also appreciate it,” he added, “if the council will be looking with the same level of attention and urgency at all other matters around the world.”

Not to mention the fact that Syria has been far more brutal in its suppression of uprisings than Israel could dream of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

[id_1948]

Yeah, just look at how effective the UN's has been in preventing Iran from developing nuclear weapons... oh wait. Not to mention that the UN has traditionally been hostile to Israel.


I will point out that the UN was effective in disarming iraq... since they had no weapons in the first place

As for Iran it does not have nuclear weapons... it is developing a nuclear Reactor... which is perfectly legitimate. The only problem was that they kept it hidden for too long... that is where the member states come in. If they suspect a country of developing illegal weapons/programs they should inform the UN early (since the UN has no spying agency). The UN then takes action via a security council.

Which is why if the states or israel has solid information it should hand it to the appropriate agencies. Going in unilaterally and leaving the whole world in the dark doesnt really help. And informing the UN almost SEVEN months after it happened when any potential evidence is sure to have been removed is even more suspicious. Why wait 7 whole months to release this info??

And the UN is hostile to israel for good reason... war crimes and crimes against humanity are generally not appreciated. I guess when you have a super power backing you up its ok for as long as the super power remains in power.

[64palms]

I'd like to say something anti-Israel right now, but it might be construed as antisemitism.:zaru

[AbnormallyNormal]

I'd like to say something anti-Israel right now, but it might be construed as antisemitism.:zaru

zionism is not judaism

important to keep that in mind.

also you can be ethnically jewish without religiously jewish. but vice versa? its confusing and complicated.

but there's nothing bigoted about opposing many israeli government actions such as settlements or assassations

[hcheng02]

I will point out that the UN was effective in disarming iraq... since they had no weapons in the first place

Iraq was disarmed after the 1st Gulf War after a US-led military coalition intervention. Also, Israel had bombed Saddam's nuclear weapon reactors a few years before then. It was only then that Saddam couldn't replenish its nukes.

As for Iran it does not have nuclear weapons... it is developing a nuclear Reactor... which is perfectly legitimate. The only problem was that they kept it hidden for too long... that is where the member states come in. If they suspect a country of developing illegal weapons/programs they should inform the UN early (since the UN has no spying agency). The UN then takes action via a security council.

The US and Israel has been screaming at the UN that Iran is developing nukes for months now. UN hasn't done squat, partly because Russia and China don't want to disrupt its oil trade with Iran. They have vetoes that block any action from the Security Council. Iran rejected a nuclear deal from Russia where they would get a heavy water reactor that would provide nuclear power but is incapable of making weapons. This shows that Iran is intent on making a nuke.

Which is why if the states or israel has solid information it should hand it to the appropriate agencies. Going in unilaterally and leaving the whole world in the dark doesnt really help. And informing the UN almost SEVEN months after it happened when any potential evidence is sure to have been removed is even more suspicious. Why wait 7 whole months to release this info??

And what is the UN going to do? Probably debate for a few months. If Israel is lucky the UN might issue some nonbinding declaration for Syria to show its reactor. Syria plays the waiting game until it finally gets a nuke, after which Israel will then be in mortal danger.

And why does the Israel have to ask the UN for permission for everything it does? People vastly overestimate the authority and reach of the UN here. Israel has gotten so far and lived for so long by relying on itself.

And the UN is hostile to israel for good reason... war crimes and crimes against humanity are generally not appreciated. I guess when you have a super power backing you up its ok for as long as the super power remains in power.

Have you even read the article I posted? When Israel gets more flack than Sudan for human rights abuses, it shows that the UN doesn't have its fucking priorities right.

Problem is that the UN conflates any killing in battle as a war crime. Israel is supposed to fight its wars without killing anyone, ever. However, when Hamas or Hezbollah intentionally targets and kills Israeli civilians and practices indiscriminate killing, the UN twiddles its thumbs and looks the other way. Maybe it wrings its hands and says Hamas should not do it. Hamas smiles and continues with the rockets. But I understand your viewpoint. Israel has no right to exist, so by definition it should have no right to defend itself. It should let other people slowly pick at it until it collapses. After which the entire Middle East will live in a golden age of peace, love, and prosperity.

BTW I'm still waiting for Black Fenix to describe how he was so mistreated in Israel.

[Cirus]

With stuff like this, I sometimes think the countries in the Middle East will not be happy until everyone that doesn't agree with them is dead. It is sad really.

[Sean Connery]

With stuff like this, I sometimes think the countries in the Middle East will not be happy until everyone that doesn't agree with them is dead. It is sad really.

yea it is .

[id_1948]

Iraq was disarmed after the 1st Gulf War after a US-led military coalition intervention. Also, Israel had bombed Saddam's nuclear weapon reactors a few years before then. It was only then that Saddam couldn't replenish its nukes.

No it was disarmed by the UN... this was mainly undertaken by the US but under a UN mandate. The US led military coalition is this current war which has no UN mandate (and hence there were no weapons because the UN disbanded them 10 years ago)

The US and Israel has been screaming at the UN that Iran is developing nukes for months now. UN hasn't done squat,

Last year a joint statment was issued by the major agencies in the states (CIA etc). It stated that Iran does NOT have an active nuclear weapon program and hasnt had one for the past 5 years. I would love to see proof of the contrary from the states or from israel. Sadly they only talk, point fingers and never offer anything at face value. The nuclear watchdog even had inspectors visit the nuclear sites on a few occasions... No reason for weapon production was found. If the states and israel had concrete proof they need to offer it and have the whole world know what is going on. Bombing a facitlity and stating seven whole months afterwards that it was a nuclear is very unreliable. When saddams nuclear plants were bombed people knew about it the next day. Also there was very reliable evidence. This activity is very suspicious. I dont know what was in that building or why it was bombed. The syrains are certainly not talking. However I would not believe anything coming out of the US or israel given there record of lies and misinformation.

[hcheng02]

No it was disarmed by the UN... this was mainly undertaken by the US but under a UN mandate. The US led military coalition is this current war which has no UN mandate (and hence there were no weapons because the UN disbanded them 10 years ago)

Just as laws are meaningless unless enforced, so are UN mandates worthless unless backed by military force, which in this case the US supplied.

Last year a joint statment was issued by the major agencies in the states (CIA etc). It stated that Iran does NOT have an active nuclear weapon program and hasnt had one for the past 5 years. I would love to see proof of the contrary from the states or from israel. Sadly they only talk, point fingers and never offer anything at face value. The nuclear watchdog even had inspectors visit the nuclear sites on a few occasions... No reason for weapon production was found. If the states and israel had concrete proof they need to offer it and have the whole world know what is going on. Bombing a facitlity and stating seven whole months afterwards that it was a nuclear is very unreliable. When saddams nuclear plants were bombed people knew about it the next day. Also there was very reliable evidence. This activity is very suspicious. I dont know what was in that building or why it was bombed. The syrains are certainly not talking. However I would not believe anything coming out of the US or israel given there record of lies and misinformation.

Although the National Intelligence Estimate does say that Iran probably stopped work on a nuclear warhead in 2003, it also says that Iran was indeed doing such work until then, and nobody knows how far it got. The UN sanctions are anyway aimed not at any warhead Iran may or may not be building in secret, but at what it is doing in full daylight, in defiance of UN resolutions, to enrich uranium and produce plutonium. We need this for electricity, says Iran. But it could fuel a bomb. And once a country can produce such fuel, putting it in a warhead is relatively easy. And one Iran has a warhead, Israel faces an existential threat and the Middle East is looking at a multipolar nuclear arms race.

Also the secrecy of the Syrians leads reasonable people to believe that something is up with the bombing site. Israel doesn't just bomb sites for no reason.

[dreams lie]

Lol. N. Korea helping out the Middle East. I almost had to double check it wasn't Bush propaganda again.

[FrostXian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_bomb

Modern nuclear weapons use a fission reaction to cause a fusion reaction.

It's not that hard of a design.

That one also leaves no radioactive fallout, yes? That is so convenient.

[Trias]

apart from lolling at Syria for not even trying to sign a peace treaty with one of the Middle East's powerhouses for this long of a time, it's most likely Israel's whim that let them bomb some Syria place. For all we know, their bombers just can't aim right for the most time. :facepalm

And lol at all the UN, US, Israel and Muslim Countries bashings, really, I love middle-eastern debate threads, so much hate to read.

Apparently, last lol is coming for those who still talk about Mutually Assured Destruction theory yet oppose other countries having nuclear technology. :facepalm

Anyways, keep debatin' guys.

[Lezard Valeth]

LOL WHAT? Now this is solid proof that your anti-Israel hate blinds you to facts and reason.

Sorry if I didn't read everything but yes the Israel army has commited some of the worst atrocities I've ever seen like shooting a poor child on the very hands of his father who was trying to protect him from Israel shots on civilians. Seeing these repeated innocent civilians murders made me hate the Israel army and OPs. I wish I could find the video to show you the horror of it.
some pics here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/952700.stm

Even Germany former leader Gerhard Schröder qualified these repeated massacre as genocide. Hitler commited a horrible genocide on Jews and the Israel forces are doing the same on Palestinians, just slower, but the result will be similar: a genocide.

By commiting this genocide, Israel is loosing its soul and the very reason for its existence: the result of a genocide.

[hcheng02]

Sorry if I didn't read everything but yes the Israel army has commited some of the worst atrocities I've ever seen like shooting a poor child on the very hands of his father who was trying to protect him from Israel shots on civilians. Seeing these repeated innocent civilians murders made me hate the Israel army and OPs. I wish I could find the video to show you the horror of it.
some pics here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/952700.stm

Even Germany former leader Gerhard Schröder qualified these repeated massacre as genocide. Hitler commited a horrible genocide on Jews and the Israel forces are doing the same on Palestinians, just slower, but the result will be similar: a genocide.

By commiting this genocide, Israel is loosing its soul and the very reason for its existence: the result of a genocide.

I suggest you read up on atrocities then. Read up on the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, and even modern genocides like the one in Rwanda and the Balkan conflicts. Thats what real genocide looks like. Theres a difference between a battle and a slaughter.

Also read the article I posted about how Israel is singled out by the UN Human Rights commission despite plenty of other countries committing atrocities. People have this delusion that the UN is some impartial judge of international affairs that upholds the upholds the highest standards when it is really at best a debating forum where its members have strong biases and personal agendas.

Those pictures don't really show a good picture about whats going on, but it sure makes for great propaganda. For all we know it could have taken place in a middle of a firefight, against an enemy that blends in with the civilian populace and has been proven to use women and children as weapons (suicide bombers). Its a sad story, but frankly the occasional civilian gets hurt or killed during the chaos of these situations. I've yet to see things like the IDF line up Palestinians and machine gun them point blank, which is what the Nazis did daily. This is of course assuming it was an IDF soldier who shot them. It could easily have been a stray bullet from a Palestinian militant.

And people throw the word genocide around without really understanding what it means. Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire culture and people. The Israelis are committing genocide alright, the kind thats so slow that the Palestinian population is growing. Funny how you say Israel is committing genocide for accidentally killing innocent civilians, which the IDF tries to avoid, but say nothing about Hamas committing genocide for purposely using suicide bombers and rockets on innocent Israeli civilians.

[Lezard Valeth]

I suggest you read up on atrocities then. Read up on the Holocaust, the Rape of Nanking, and even modern genocides like the one in Rwanda and the Balkan conflicts.

Those pictures don't really show a good picture about whats going on, but it sure makes for great propaganda. For all we know it could have taken place in a middle of a firefight, against an enemy that blends in with the civilian populace and has been proven to use women and children as weapons (suicide bombers). Its a sad story, but frankly the occasional civilian gets hurt or killed during the chaos of these situations. I've yet to see things like the IDF line up Palestinians and machine gun them point blank, which is what the Nazis did daily.

And people through the word genocide around without really understanding what it means. Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire culture and people. The Israelis are committing genocide alright, the kind thats so slow that the Palestinian population is growing. Funny how you say Israel is committing genocide for accidentally killing innocent civilians, which the IDF tries to avoid, but say nothing about Hamas committing genocide for purposely using suicide bombers and rockets on innocent Israeli civilians.
I do not approve the Hamas militians doings either, shooting Israeli civilians is a crime. But that doesn't excuse Israel forces shooting civilians either.

[hcheng02]

I do not approve the Hamas militians doings either, shooting Israeli civilians is a crime. But that doesn't excuse Israel forces shooting civilians either.

Why do you assume that when the IDF kills a civilian that its intentional? Should the IDF only fight and shoot back when they have absolutely 0% chance of hitting a civilian? That kind of situation is practically impossible. One side targets militants and deliberately tries to reduce civilian casualties but the other side deliberately bombs cafes and school buses that have absolutely no military application whatsoever. One side (Israel) wants to give the Palestinians their own state, whereas Hamas is waging a holy war to utterly wipe out Israel. Yet somehow people can't grasp these differences and say they are the same. Its mind boggling.