Your Religion prior to Atheism

[Kamendex]

I'm curious about this, because so many people are atheist on this forum, and I want to know which religon kind of "let them down."

[kireato]

You forgot bahai... And i am agnostic not atheist.

Here's a link... Though you can easily find much more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai

As for agnostism... Well atheists firmly believe that God doesn't exist... And belief is faith, so it's almost a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

[jkingler]

I am a free-thinker, not an agnostic or an atheist :P

[anjelline]

well, i'm mixed up on sorts!
i'm taoist by birth, buddhist by practice, catholic by heart, but atheist by soul.

really jumbled up, and I can't really say much about it, but that's what I feel that I should do.. haha!

[Aldredian_Sahn]

I'm curious about this, because so many people are atheist on this forum, and I want to know which religon kind of "let them down."
I grew up going to a Christian Church (Methodist). In high school I had a terrible time with it. I thought it was a bunch of crap, an all loving God that destroys people? Seriously? (Don't ever read Revelations first, it can lead to a lot of misunderstandings before you are ready for it) So God was in question. I search for other religions too then, but I couldn't find one that seemed right. My Uncle studied the Baha'i, but after finding out that it combined all religions into one, I realized that was a bunch of bull and impossible. In college I took a world religions class. It was really cool and at the time I learned a lot. I also thought for a long time that the new age stuff was 'rad,' then I found out that the religion had just started recently and it doesn't make sense to me that people can just create their own religions. Man making a God. I think religion has to run deep, to the beginning of time or as far back as humans were able to remember.

Science had to be the answer of course. That let me down also. It lead me to a dead end in which there was no meaning of 'us' We were like robots to my pyscho:) teacher. Then one day, out of desire I guess to find the truth, God showed himself to me, in a way. I started going to Bible Studies, still with a lot of questioning and I was very argumentive. I was totally not trusting them to their "coversion" expertise, but they didn't try to convert me, although some were a little pushy about it...actually it was only one or two of them. You'll find that naturally in groups. I learned more and more and eventually I asked Christ Jesus to enter into me because I had the desire for Him to do that and everything is pretty damn terrific now. The whole world let me down, but I found what I had been searching for.

[kireato]

^^That's an interesting experience.

But you know... many groups are great. Only some people try to convert you.

Sincerely, any religion can do, or none at all, to find people with which you can have a fun time.

Well, then again, i don't feel the whole world has let me down at some point in my life.
Cheers for you.

[GaaraOfTheDesert]

I was a catholic, and i no longer needed religion, it was of no use to me anymore, i found my hapiness and hope in myself, i don't need no god to get that.

More and more people are losing religion, individualism is coming back. hooray :P

[Sayo]

atheist all the way, i believe in myself and in control of my own life, not any higher being is involved in that and im not depending on anything related to that.

[Nybarius]

As for agnostism... Well atheists firmly believe that God doesn't exist... And belief is faith, so it's almost a religion.

Touche--but then, you probably firmly believe that invisible floating space-monkeys aren't hovering over your shoulder right now, but I'd argue that's just good sense, and far removed from any religious conviction. To affirm an obvious negative is worlds removed from affirming a baleful, untrue positive.

Anyway, if you're going to claim atheism is on par with religion, you might as well go all out and affirm a Nietzschean skepticism; "nothing is true; everything is permitted".

[RatQueen]

I was raised Garderian, studied Alexandrian and formed my own style of practice over the years.

Definately not an atheist.

[Nybarius]

Ratqueen: But what were you prior to being raised Garderian? Atheist I tells ya!

Everyone was an atheist / agnostic prior to having some religion inculcated in them.

[Devonin]

By definition, they couldn't have been an agnostic prior to religious knowledge being taught to them.

[SirBelial]

I was born as a Catholic (damn parents..) and some years after having lost any link to Christianity or to the church, I studied some Satanism and became interested in it.
Now I don't want to be called any of these groups, I'm just me, I don't believe in any god, but I don't exclude the existance of a god. So it would be Agnostic, but I don't want to be called Agnostic, you understand? :P

[Toby]

I was catholic, lost faith when I started to question my faith in certain incidents where it seemed I had lost my contact with God.

But it isnt the lost faith of abandoning God, I still believe God exists, I am simply not agreeing with his decisions and I dont support him as a god, only as a greater celestial being on a different plane of existence. Thus, God is a form you can talk to about mostly anything. If God made us that is :P

[Gravespawn]

Lets see. I started a general christian, but never believed in it, then to atheist, then to a neo-pagan type religion, then atheist, then zen-buddism, then back to atheism.

[kungfuchopstickz]

Born and raised Buddhist. I stopped believing.

[syrin]

Lets see. I started a general christian, but never believed in it, then to atheist, then to a neo-pagan type religion, then atheist, then zen-buddism, then back to atheism.

*cough* bullshit *cough*
all that and your a 16 year old.... something just doesnt seem right. I dont think trying a religion for a day counts, and i doubt you would have 'changed' religion any lower than 10 - 12 (even that seems too low). sooooo all those religions in the space of a few years at most? yeah right, pull the other one. Even if you did try all these religions it takes time to have an understanding of each religion so i have come to the conclusion that your post was a load of bs.

i had a shit day and am not in the mood for compulsive liers.


and me, i was born and raised christian, and now i believe mostly in what science has taught me.

[RaitoRyuukashin]

I was baptist(protestant), raised that way as most black kids are but I knew the truth since I was small.

[yo586]

really, with all the number of religions in this world, you should add an "other" option to your thread. don't wanna offend anyone!
and while i've grown up in a jewish family and still say im jewish, I'm more of a guy who follows my own intuition and goes wherever that takes me.

[Zhongda]

i really doubt a muslim will vote

[zionforsell]

If we really look at the existence of God, we will realize that there is no proof nor evidence that might lead to Him. If there is such a holy creature as God, and everything was good according to him, there wouldnt be so many religions with difference beliefs. So God is just a belief that people want to believe. If they believe in loyalty, honesty,... they will create a God who cherishs and praise those characteristics. In my view point, everybody is their own God. We each learn and treasure certain traits unlike others. Killing is wrong. But from time to time, revolution took lot of lives and yet some was called "heroes" instead of "killers". Need not jugde by action, but by motivation and reason. I was born in a Catholic family. I used to be a true believer in God. But the more I confronted life and started to question, the more I grow. I think that if we keep believing in someone's view instead of ours, we will always remain a child with strings for someone to control. To recognize our own God in ourself, that is how we are ever going to grow up!

[KUREIGU]

i was church of england, you know the one henry the 8th made when he wanted to divorce his first wife

[Gravespawn]

*cough* bullshit *cough*
all that and your a 16 year old.... something just doesnt seem right. I dont think trying a religion for a day counts, and i doubt you would have 'changed' religion any lower than 10 - 12 (even that seems too low). sooooo all those religions in the space of a few years at most? yeah right, pull the other one. Even if you did try all these religions it takes time to have an understanding of each religion so i have come to the conclusion that your post was a load of bs.

Okay you don't believe me. When I was between 8 and 10, even if you don't believe if I did, I became an atheist because I stopped believing in the existance of a God. But about a few years after becoming an atheist I began to explore other religions, so when I was about 14 I was neo-pagan for a little while, and recently I almost joined the Church of All Worlds, a neo-pagan religion inspired partly by the 1960's book Stranger in a Strange Land. I considered myself it for a few months and then I realized that it wasn't right for me, and I didn't fully believe in it. So again I went back to the only religion that made since to me, atheism. Then last year I started to meditate in order to deal with my shitty life. Zen meditation was the style I picked and since I was using the style I began to practice the religion. After a while though I stopped out of conflicts with the reincarnation belief that I first thought I would be able to eventually overcome. Now I am a strict atheist. And even if I didn't have a complete understanding of the religions I had a basic enough understanding to live my life by there principles for a period over a year. And even if you don't fully believe me I know the truth and those around me know the truth so I don't really care.

[Chintsuzai]

I'm an athiest.. I'd rather not believe in any religion and think for myself ^^; (I'm not putting down anyone who does believe in things.. I'm just saying...) My parents just raised me like this I guess... XD And anyways I'm more of a sciency person..

[Mad FISH]

i was church of england, you know the one henry the 8th made when he wanted to divorce his first wifeThat would make you a protestant.

A long long time ago when I was innocent... no a better word would be ignorant... I believed in God and was well... Methodist (I was in a Methodist family that never went to church...) Anyways! Then as the days went by and I was bullied at school I reliezed if God exists they why would he let bad things happen to moderately good people. Then I reliezed more contridictions like, if God is belevolant why is he so vengeful? Why does he cast those who don't believe him in purgatory despite them living good lives? Why would he let the Vatican Order (the one with the pope and all that) do what they did in the Middle Ages just because they contridicted things they didn't like... like women with power and land... belife in the world is round... or believing in a religion thats almost like Catholism but isn't? Why does he hide from mortals? There are just too many things in this world that contridicts God's existance thus there can not be a god. I'm more inclined to believe in the Greek Myths then God...

[GruntTrung]

I was truly born an atheist, i have never believed that there is any kind of higher being, or creating god or anything like that. But i wouldnt say that any religon has let me down, its more like i never believed in anything like that in the first place, nor have i found any reason to belive.

[Erkekjetter]

I was born christian, and am now athiest. But, I'm getting interested in Satanism.

[pajamas]

I've never believed in god, I never will believe in god. Because god doesn't exist. But I do go to church. Unitarian Universalists, and we, at this church, can believe whatever the fuck we want, and at the end of eighth grade (next year for me) we have coming of age, which is where we tell the congregation our beliefs. So theoretically I'm Unitarian Universalist but I am truly, deep down, an atheist. And I'm damn proud of it.

[Tehol Beddict]

Main background in the protestant faith (apostolic mostly), several different sects, some in catholicism. developed the desire for freedom of mind at about 12, now firmly athiest. Have also done (very) minor studying of the jewish, buddhist, and muslim faiths, as well as a little in mythology and ancient religion.

[Arima Teppei]

I am not into believings and stuff although i'm raised as a Christian i'm actually to things.

I am a Christian and also a Catholic. That is because my mom is an Catholic and my dad is an Christian.

[yabba]

I am by birth a Lutheranian Protestant but no-one in my family was or is very religious, neither am I. I am sort of an Agnostic. Just don't know... :)

I think nobody human can fully recognise the Divine.
Neither could the prophets of the religions from the desert. I as a first reaction am very sceptic towards written religious stuff that claims to be the whole and wholly truth..

The Bible is written just by man, some parts of it may be nice, some I read were frightening, I really do not want to build my house of belief solely on that ground.

In Islam they SAY mohammed (sav) did receive the holy scripture (al'quran) through the archangel Gabriel who directly told him the will of God. But that's all nonsense in my opinion.

I believe no man who claims to say God's word. I only am quite sure that there is some sort of higher being that we have no, I say no, idea of how it is like . If someone would like to worship, only worship the wholly divine not some treacherous priests....

[explicitkarma]

I went to church as a kid, but I didn't attend often. However, I was god-fearing. Infact, I was scared shitless. Those retarded "prophecy" shows came on TV and, being the naive kid I was, I swore the world was gonna end on December 22, 2012. Kids at school were quick to tell me that "I was going to go to hell" for not going to church on a regular basis. They held their "Christianity" as if it were their crutch of superiority which would justify beatings and ridicule. I think too often religion is used for fear and intimidation than for enlightenment and enrichment of one's life.

I'm agnostic, but I definately have no faith in "organized religion" for the most part. One thing's for sure though, i'm more of a Christian than the fucks I went to school with.

[Keramachi]

I am not into believings and stuff although i'm raised as a Christian i'm actually to things.

I am a Christian and also a Catholic. That is because my mom is an Catholic and my dad is an Christian.Umm... Catholic is Christian. If by Christian, you mean protestant, then it makes sense.

On topic... I am not an atheist and never will be. I'll most likely be told that I am a prisoner of my faith, but don't expect me to change my mind.

[GaaraOfTheDesert]

Umm... Catholic is Christian. If by Christian, you mean protestant, then it makes sense.

On topic... I am not an atheist and never will be. I'll most likely be told that I am a prisoner of my faith, but don't expect me to change my mind.

whatever makes you happy :)

[morino ibiki]

I am by birth a Lutheranian Protestant but no-one in my family was or is very religious, neither am I. I am sort of an Agnostic. Just don't know... :)

I think nobody human can fully recognise the Divine.
Neither could the prophets of the religions from the desert. I as a first reaction am very sceptic towards written religious stuff that claims to be the whole and wholly truth..

The Bible is written just by man, some parts of it may be nice, some I read were frightening, I really do not want to build my house of belief solely on that ground.

In Islam they SAY mohammed (sav) did receive the holy scripture (al'quran) through the archangel Gabriel who directly told him the will of God. But that's all nonsense in my opinion.

I believe no man who claims to say God's word. I only am quite sure that there is some sort of higher being that we have no, I say no, idea of how it is like . If someone would like to worship, only worship the wholly divine not some treacherous priests....

we have the same beliefs :smile-big

[Killenator]

Was born in the Episcopal church and my family attended weekly until I turned 6. I always had a niggling doubt in the back of my head saying "But that's not right.", but once I stopped attending things got a lot clearer to me. I've been an atheist since about second grade and have now been one for *blinks* nine years, considerably longer than the "stage" my parents claim I'm in should last, so happily I can conclude that I needent fear my "stage" ending...

Course I'm not technically an atheist, since atheism is pretty much as dogmatic as religion at times. I'm a Radical Empiricist, if someone could show me real scientific evidence I would beleive, but it would take a great deal to prove it to me, and I've yet to see any evidence in the least supporting the existence of an invisible Sky Ghost.

Now the Invisible Pink Unicorn is a whole nother matter...

[skunkworks]

My family is Jewish. And I wouldn't consider myself an atheist, I'm more of an agnostic.

[Kamendex]

Well is seems that most people were either a form of chrisianity or just born that way, I wonder what their parents were.

[Arilou]

I've never been a believer in anything like that. I read the Bible for the stories, but then, I did the same with the Edda.

[PyRomantic]

I consider myself to be Agnostic, but I guess I was raised Protestant. My parents never really emphasized religion, I think they wanted me to find it on my own. Most people in my family on my dad's side are catholic and on my mother's side I think they're more protestant... but I'm not entirely sure. I think too much to have the luxury of faith.

[ExAzrael]

Hmm.

Well, i say I was born Atheist, as I always felt the bible and the whole idea of an invisible man was phony. I held the bible no higher than Snow White. Still don't.

[Hef]

Hmm.

Well, i say I was born Atheist, as I always felt the bible and the whole idea of an invisible man was phony. I held the bible no higher than Snow White. Still don't.
Hear, hear!
Although I have to elaborate my story a little...
I was christened/baptized when I was born. I've never actually believed in any gods or anything. (Except this one time, when I was like 6 and the girl next door and I tried to hatch an egg (chicken egg that we took from the fridge!) and we hoped that a parrot would hatch from it. That's the only time I've prayed. :D)
Seriously now, I even protested the protestant teachings in school when I was like 7. o_O I don't know where my lack of faith comes. Maybe it's because religion isn't a big thing in our family. I got only christened because my mom was in the church. And we, both my mom and I said goodbye to the church and resigned (?) when I turned 15. :D
SO, you COULD say I was born atheist, but I did vote that the protestant church let me down. I mean seriously.
Who on earth believes in some GOD? A dusty old book that could as well be a good night story or a collection of stories like the "Grimm's Fairy Tales". I've always seen highly religious people mentally sick in a way, I guess. They tell that God has entered them and all that... Oh well. Please don't mind me. It's my style to be a bit over-provocative when it comes to things such as (western) religion. I have no bone to pick with the eastern religions. I think that their teachings have a little more meaning. But then again, it could be because they are somewhat exotic.
And I want to say that I'm very open minded and open to new things. It's just that religion gets on my nerves. Oh well.

Bah. I'm a bit confused now. :S
I believe in science if I must name a thing that I believe in. Umm, yeah. :cool

[Masaki]

Actually, before going Aethiest, I had believed that God was just there.

However, I began wondering how anyone could think that some god was out there. I mean, I had believed in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, and they all turned out to be lies. Why would a god be any different? No one has ever really seen he/she/it. Also, hearing about stuff that the Churches did in the past, like the Salem Trials and the opposition of learning more about the universe, I began to think that everything that the Churches invented was just their own view on the world, but not a truth.

[Haik]

you have Catholic, Protestant but NOT christian...
What the hell??
I your gona say, "but Catholic and christian are the same" then you don't have a clue what your talking about and you should be in the manga section, not in this section.

But you put Sikh?? That is completly unnecessary... Anyway if you wanne make it a bit realistic. Plz add Christian in the poll.

[Shade Luka]

I was Catholic but I got tired of them trying to force feed me a book that is just a childrens book.

[Razgriez]

Im technically agnostic.

I was born into your basic protestant type family and thats how I was raised. I got older thought about it and now question its existance.

[Esponer]

I declared myself an atheist when I was six years old, and prior to that I can't be said to have any religion. My father is agnostic, although thanks to his apathy statistics would show that he's a Methodist. My grandfather seems to be a Christian deist of some sort, but it doesn't affect his life save for allowing him to be a Freemason (if born today, I'd wager he'd call himself agnostic). My mother and grandmother are spiritualists — my grandmother's particularly involved, being the president of a spiritualist church and a firm believer in the spirits of the deceased and her power of spiritual healing.

My parents wanted me to have a religious education, for some reason, and so sent me to a small Church of England (Protestant) primary school. They meant well, but really all the school was interested in doing was indoctrinating me, not telling me about all sorts of different religions. It didn't work, however, and in my second year there I completely alienated myself by telling my teacher that I was an atheist.

It wasn't problem of evil, or concerns about gods of the gaps, or any of that. I just thought it was superstitious nonsense. Nobody ever provided me any evidence that anything they were saying was true, so I didn't believe a word of it.

[Sub-Zero]

I was born a Methodist Christian, but I'm an atheist now so who cares?

[T4R0K]

i really doubt a muslim will vote

*Imagine me with a crazy FACE (damn brain !! It was FACE !)*
Nyeahehehehehe... You're tempting me to vote just to spite you, hehehe...
I can bring you trucks of former-muslim that became atheists... I just wish the believers would stop being dicks to them. I mean like, not killing them because they stopped believing.

(Note : I'm an deist (now I get the difference between agnostic and deist) of muslim background, so I don't identify myself as an atheist, but I'd vote if it can piss some people off. I'd sooner fight for the right of an atheist to proclaim his/her opinion freely than silencing that voice.)

[troublesum-chan]

Oh, i was many things.

I was raised Jodo Shinshu Buddhist, which when i became aware of the fact that they didn't believe in an immortal soul in the usual sense, became frightened. I was a kid, i was incredibly scared of the thought that there might just be nothingness after i die was terrifying. So, i converted to the "best advertised" salvation religion: Christianity.

But thoughts of nothingness plagued me still. I asked my parents endless questions, mostly things along the line of "are you sure there's a God? How do you know? How do you know its the right one I'm choosing?" and they would throw out every little axiomatic yet vague thing they could think up (like good parents <3).

Then i went to camp one year, and listened to the good little christian girls condemn all of my buddhist friends, and decided who was anyone to tell what god wanted? If god is so omnipotent and wondrous and loves us all so very much, why does it matter the way we interpret god? Should it be enough to condemn us to eternal suffering? Could my friends, some of which were the most altruistic little shits you ever met, really be destined for hell just because they were buddhist?

It was then that all the little flaws and unanswered questions just created the big ass reasonable doubt in me that resulted in my semi-atheism.

[Orochimaru-sama, Sannin]

I was always skeptical. Now I have science on my side to back me up.

[AbnormallyNormal]

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist

[Esponer]

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist
Atheism is the state of affairs whereby you do not believe in any gods. All humans are strictly born atheist. Within the context of this thread it is clear what that option is intended to mean.

[impersonal]

As for agnostism... Well atheists firmly believe that God doesn't exist... And belief is faith, so it's almost a religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Bullshit... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism.
Atheism is not necessarily the positive affirmation that God doesn't exist; it is generally simply the affirmation that "I don't believe in God" and that it would be illogical to believe in God. The term "agnosticism" is generally used as a politically correct version of the word "atheism". Saying in front of a religious person that you're an agnostic is a lot less shocking for them, mostly because atheists, after having been discriminated against for hundred years, carry a bad reputation. So instead of admitting what they are, many atheists choose to condemn atheists to go with the flow and to call themselves "agnostics".

As I see it, the only case in which the use of the word "agnosticism" is justified is for people who do not care whether there's a god or not (who consider the question to be irrelevant). In all other cases, "negative atheism" is much more appropriate.


everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist
Kids, when they come out of the womb, do not believe in God - therefore they are atheists. That's all there is to it. If you want to be more specific, you can call the kid an agnostic but that's just a sub-section of atheism.

Anyway, when the kid grows he can be raised as an atheist or as a religious, which is what the OP obviously meant.

[Amaretti]

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist

Atheism covers both the explicit 'I believe there is no God' and the more implicit 'I don't believe there is a God'. People who have not been introduced to the concept of God, such as babies, are therefore atheists as the word 'atheism' literally means 'absence of belief in God'.

It seems that atheism has such a huge stigma attached to it that people have forgotten what it actually means and incorrectly associate it with people who actively reject God when in truth it's simply a label for everyone who lacks a belief in God for whatever reason, be it if that they have never heard of God, are too young to understand, or find it implausible, etc.

And of course if you are never taught to believe in God, an atheist you will remain.

[vervex]

I grew up as a Catholic, even though my family never put pressure on me to become one. They're believers by tradition but don't practice. In fact, the only thing they know about their religion is what they were taught at school when they were kids. They don't really question themselves on the matter... It's almost as if they didn't think.
The saddest part of this story is that... it's totally true.

I believe most of them have no idea that I'm an atheist and that they wouldn't care anyway.

I started questioning myself about religion around 11. I first started exploring Christianity, and even started believing it, but when I hit 13-14, I just step back and said "no-no... this is not logical." I started reading a lot about other beliefs - Islam, Taoism and Buddhism. I've lived my own experiences and finally, I've come to the conclusion that monotheist religions were just wrong.

Anyway, that's where I am today :)

Oh and I'll answer this post too...

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist
False. I had neighbors whose parents were atheists and that raised their children like this. Even as kids, when I used to ask them if God existed, they would answer me:
- No.
- But where do you go when you die then ?
- Nowhere.
- You're fine with that ?
- Yes.

I agree with you saying that everyone is born agnostic though. But that applies for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and another other believer also. That that is pointless.

[TiGel2.]

Atheism is the state of affairs whereby you do not believe in any gods. All humans are strictly born atheist. Within the context of this thread it is clear what that option is intended to mean.

Assumption not fact. Same @ Armetti and Hugo_Pratt. It is entirely possible that a child born in total seclusion inherently believes in a greater power, while it is also possible that they believe nothing at all. I personally think they would lean towards believing in a entity greater than themselves.

[sel]

*Imagine me with a crazy FACE (damn brain !! It was FACE !)*
Nyeahehehehehe... You're tempting me to vote just to spite you, hehehe...
I can bring you trucks of former-muslim that became atheists... I just wish the believers would stop being dicks to them. I mean like, not killing them because they stopped believing.

(Note : I'm an deist (now I get the difference between agnostic and deist) of muslim background, so I don't identify myself as an atheist, but I'd vote if it can piss some people off. I'd sooner fight for the right of an atheist to proclaim his/her opinion freely than silencing that voice.)

TAROK - vote otherwise i will vote for you. Even though i'm a practising muslim

[Fulcata]

I was raised Baptist until the age of eight by my grandmother. Although it only took until around 5 to become Athiest, it took much longer to "Come out of the Bible" so to speak. My parents are both agnostic, and they wanted to let me and my sister make our own decision. I'm Pastafarian, and my sis' just doesn't talk about it.

[Adonis]

Assumption not fact. Same @ Armetti and Hugo_Pratt. It is entirely possible that a child born in total seclusion inherently believes in a greater power, while it is also possible that they believe nothing at all. I personally think they would lean towards believing in a entity greater than themselves.

It depends on the person. Some look up at the sky and think, "Wow, there must be something up there!" and others don't. You're making it sound as if all people can only be inherently one or the other.

[mislead]

Assumption not fact. Same @ Armetti and Hugo_Pratt. It is entirely possible that a child born in total seclusion inherently believes in a greater power, while it is also possible that they believe nothing at all. I personally think they would lean towards believing in a entity greater than themselves.

A child born in total seclusion is a being that's quite similar to your regular chimpanzee. This applies to their religious beliefs too.

There's a thread on this somewhere, but I don't feel like looking for it, so I'll just summarize my point here. The idea of a supernatural entity (a god) is a pretty sophisticated concept; and I don't see how a person who can't even fathom the existence of a being similar to them (another human) could come up with that.

In the end, interaction with others is necessary for an individual to develop in any aspect.

[Saosin]

Born atheist.

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist

:huh
There are plenty of people who never believed in God and never will.

[Robotkiller]

My family raised me lutheran.

[T4R0K]

TAROK - vote otherwise i will vote for you. Even though i'm a practising muslim

Alrighty then ! Let's vote together to piss them off !!

[Shiron]

I was raised as a Protestant. However, eventually I just discovered the holes in that religion, and started noticing the things that just didn't make any sense, and thus started slipping towards atheism. However, technically, I'm agonstic right now.

[less]

everyone who puts down "born atheist" needs to stop lying.... almost noone is raised atheist and noone is born atheist, you're born AGNOSTIC not atheist

Both parents are ex-commmunists. Atheism and Communism went hand in hand back in the seventies. So while I'm not a "born atheist" per se, I'm certainly raised as one. Not that they fed me anti-theism propaganda or anything, they just never brought up god or religion in general throughout my childhood. If I asked, they answered truthfully.

chibi-less: Mom, do you believe in God?

Mom: No.

chibi-less: Then what happens when we die?

Mom: I honestly don't know, less. We'll all find out eventually. Kids your age shouldn't think about that stuff.

chibi-less: *thinks about that stuff anyway*

chibi-less: :cry

Mom: Told you...

[Red]

lol wut? :sag

Traditional African religion is'nt there?

May amadioha strike you :mad.

[Esponer]

Assumption not fact.
No.

"Atheism is the state of affairs whereby you do not believe in any gods."
This is a definition. Any good dictionary, encyclopaedia or reliable document will confirm this definition, and a brief view of the recent responses make it clear that the correct definition, as I stated, is also widely known. Wikipedia will also suffice: "atheism is the absence of belief in deities".

"All humans are strictly born atheist."
Presuming that the definition of atheism has been clarified, this is unquestionable and a fact, not an assumption. Newborn humans do not have immediate knowledge of this sort carried in their genes: psychological studies show that early development of human young includes the discovery that they are not the only thinking being there is. This is a major stage in human development. It is frankly impossible given our knowledge of the development of the human mind that humans are born with belief in a god, and therefore they are born atheist by definition.

It is entirely possible that a child born in total seclusion inherently believes in a greater power, while it is also possible that they believe nothing at all. I personally think they would lean towards believing in a entity greater than themselves.
Studies show that children born in total seclusion do not come to learn that there are other thinking beings in existence. Verifiable evidence of total seclusion all shows that the humans do not gain believe in "a greater power". Tangentially, it is interesting to note that humans raised by other species inherit that species customs and attitudes. There's no implication that they come to believe in "greater power[s]".

[TiGel2.]

SCREw THE CORRECTING ERROR, GOD THAT IS THE 4th TIME I WROTE A BUNCH OF CRAP TO BE LOST THE CORRECTING ERROR. I FAIL.

Anyways it was a long post agreeing with you in some parts and disagreeing with others and agreeing with TheDarkAdonis's post. The topic does not invoke enough desire for me to attempt to redo my reply once again. a page of my thoughts forever lost to all but myself =(.

[Moridin]

Raised Protestant by my parents, well mainly my mothers influence and the subsequent fact that the better high school in my area was a christian school so we had to attend church to get into it at the time.

Subsequently learnt to look at things myself, rather than just accept.

[Esponer]

SCREw THE CORRECTING ERROR, GOD THAT IS THE 4th TIME I WROTE A BUNCH OF CRAP TO BE LOST THE CORRECTING ERROR. I FAIL.
Not good. I've mostly copied my posts before clicking to post. I'm not going to do it this time. Ooh, so risky.

[Anarchy]

I was a protestan but now Im agnostic

[AbnormallyNormal]

Atheism is the state of affairs whereby you do not believe in any gods. All humans are strictly born atheist. Within the context of this thread it is clear what that option is intended to mean.

no, agnostic implies lacking belief thats what an agnostic IS. an atheist is someone who deliberately believes in non-existence. totally different and peolpe always conflate these.

[Esponer]

no, agnostic implies lacking belief thats what an agnostic IS. an atheist is someone who deliberately believes in non-existence. totally different and peolpe always conflate these.
No dear, we've been through this. You're wrong.

[AbnormallyNormal]

darling what do you think 'agnostic' means then? if you define 'agnostic' and 'atheist' the exact same doesnt that seem a bit odd to you, sugar plum?

[Tokoyami]

I was of no religion I will never be I hate the idea of some "god" controlling my life seeing as I hate the idea of a being controlling another being.

[AbnormallyNormal]

correcting error controls all of our lives right now. ( i just got it again trying to post this $&@^$#@^$*&^$*$& )

[Tokoyami]

CORRECTING ERROR!!111111!!!!111

Lets just say I've not been very liked by the christain community around here.......I still say they started it though.

[sel]

Alrighty then ! Let's vote together to piss them off !!

I'm not an atheist lol, though i may not like what people say i will fight for their right to do so

And yes i stole that off Voltaire but gimme a break huh?

[Link]

I'm not atheist. I just argue from their perspective when confronted by the inconsistencies and dogged falsified beliefs of other religions.
I was raised Episcopalian.

[AbnormallyNormal]

I grew up as a Catholic, even though my family never put pressure on me to become one. They're believers by tradition but don't practice. In fact, the only thing they know about their religion is what they were taught at school when they were kids. They don't really question themselves on the matter... It's almost as if they didn't think.
The saddest part of this story is that... it's totally true.

I believe most of them have no idea that I'm an atheist and that they wouldn't care anyway.

I started questioning myself about religion around 11. I first started exploring Christianity, and even started believing it, but when I hit 13-14, I just step back and said "no-no... this is not logical." I started reading a lot about other beliefs - Islam, Taoism and Buddhism. I've lived my own experiences and finally, I've come to the conclusion that monotheist religions were just wrong.

Anyway, that's where I am today :)

Oh and I'll answer this post too...


False. I had neighbors whose parents were atheists and that raised their children like this. Even as kids, when I used to ask them if God existed, they would answer me:
- No.
- But where do you go when you die then ?
- Nowhere.
- You're fine with that ?
- Yes.

I agree with you saying that everyone is born agnostic though. But that applies for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and another other believer also. That that is pointless.

no i said *almost* noone is raised atheist. it does happen. but still, noone, absolutely noone, is BORN atheist.

alright, since evreyone seems to think atheism is what i mean when i say agnosticism.... please tell me what you think agnostics are? and if you say the exact same definition as you gave me for atheists, WHY USE TWO WORDS FOR ONE IDEA. to me, the word agnostic undisputably represents someone who DOES NOT KNOW if there is a god (hence technically lacks affirmative belief). whereas 'atheist' is much tricker and people constantly dispute its menaing. but since 'agnostic' is so clearly the simple "lacking belief" idea, i guess in my mind i would prefer to have 'atheist' mean someone who definitiviely rejects the existence of a god or gods. that way these words have two separate meanings. thats all i was trying to get across.

[Grrblt]

darling what do you think 'agnostic' means then? if you define 'agnostic' and 'atheist' the exact same doesnt that seem a bit odd to you, sugar plum?

Agnostic is someone who acknowledges it is impossible to know (a=without gnosis=knowledge). Agnostics can still believe there is or isn't a god, as long as he does it with a sense of "hey I could be wrong, it wouldn't really surprise me". You can be an agnostic theist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) or an agnostic atheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism).

[Turnip Girl]

I was born an Atheist. I remember sitting through carol services and such at primary school (so we're talking a tiny-weeny little Turnip Girl) and thinking 'What am I doing here? This whole God idea... It's stupid.' Even at a young age, it made no sense to me. The vicar would give assemblies at my school every week and I'd wonder how a grown-up could believe in God - to me, it was like believing in Father Christmas. I was the sort of kid that left traps so I could prove that my Mum was the tooth fairy. XD

Of course, now I understand why people believe - but organised religion succeeds in doing nothing but pushing me even further away.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Agnostic is someone who acknowledges it is impossible to know (a=without gnosis=knowledge). Agnostics can still believe there is or isn't a god, as long as he does it with a sense of "hey I could be wrong, it wouldn't really surprise me". You can be an agnostic theist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) or an agnostic atheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism).

i think that someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there exists god(s) would be in my book, a "strong" agnostic. a "weak" agnostic to me is simply someone who themselves does not know or believes they do not know. just like a "weak" atheist is one who personally lacks belief in god(s) but has no affirmative proof against their existence. and a "strong" atheist believes they do possess such proof/compelling evidence against such existence. it isnt really that big of a deal, just to me "born atheist" looks wrong.

[Esponer]

LackingLack, agnosticism and atheism are defined poorly in common parlance. We know what you understand the words to mean, and it's completely understandable how you might come to the wrong impression. Personally, I always seemed to have the right definition but originally had the wrong definition for agnosticism (until I researched it, I didn't realise that agnosticism was the state of not claiming knowledge on the existence of gods — I didn't realise there were agnostic theists).

Still, we basically agree on the points, so let's just all note that definition confusements come up now and then and move on.

[Masaki]

Before athiesm, I was just told that god lived beyond Pluto. That was all.

Then when I was told Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist, I assumed it was the same deal with god.

[Goodfellow]

The idea of God is unprovable. Kinda like the Flying Spagetti Monster and the pink invisible unicorn:neutral

So atheist? Dunno, probably. I couldn't care less about the idea of a douchebag in heaven wanting to controll everyones life.

I get a bit bothered when religious people are discriminating bigots though. Luck few actually are:nod

And I'm originally Evangelic Lutheran. A protestant that is. But I was never really into it. At all.

[vervex]

no i said *almost* noone is raised atheist. it does happen. but still, noone, absolutely noone, is BORN atheist.

alright, since evreyone seems to think atheism is what i mean when i say agnosticism.... please tell me what you think agnostics are? and if you say the exact same definition as you gave me for atheists, WHY USE TWO WORDS FOR ONE IDEA. to me, the word agnostic undisputably represents someone who DOES NOT KNOW if there is a god (hence technically lacks affirmative belief). whereas 'atheist' is much tricker and people constantly dispute its menaing. but since 'agnostic' is so clearly the simple "lacking belief" idea, i guess in my mind i would prefer to have 'atheist' mean someone who definitiviely rejects the existence of a god or gods. that way these words have two separate meanings. thats all i was trying to get across.

You should take a look at this:
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=8312613&postcount=34

And read the whole convo is you wish... you'd learn a lot.

[Arachnia]

Born a Catholic but I eventually outgrew it like the Easter bunny and co.

[Marl]

Ex-catholic.

The more I got involved with my church, the more I decided I disliked its hypocrisy. So I quit.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a God. In fact, I rather expect there is. I don't for one minute believe it is the God I used to worship, though.

[TiGel2.]

Ex-catholic.

The more I got involved with my church, the more I decided I disliked its hypocrisy. So I quit.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a God. In fact, I rather expect there is. I don't for one minute believe it is the God I used to worship, though.

Heh, reminds me of a quote I need to find about what you said. My religion believes in progressive revelation and the Abrahamic God, but the son of its founder once told a Atheist in the late 1800's that he does not believe in the same God the atheist does not believe in ;).

Too many concern themselves with what God is. If God does exists, he would essentially be unexplainable by Man's mind and logic, hence why waste our time attempting to define Him =o? Have to concern ourselves with bettering ourselves as individuals and Mankind as a society.

[Serena_Ahnell]

My parents were brought up Catholic, but it was never an issue in the house.

My mom is a bit on the crazy side. She's sorta Catholic but does the whole attributing things to dead relatives- Kinda creepy when I was little, lucky numbers- Lottery Tickets and Keno, fortune telling too- Tarrot cards. It sends mixed messages, but nothing is ever boring around her.

My Dad never breathed a word about religion. Not in a bad way, it was just never brought up.

I was never into it and then things were pretty bad for a while so I decided to jump into a fanatical Pentacostal church. Might as well jump in at the deep end. =/ At the time I was convinced that if I tried hard enough God would listen to me and somehow help me fix my problems. Confused, angry, and selfish... Terrible combination.

After that was a failure I was totally turned off religion for about two years. Then I slowly reasoned myself out of the pit of hate for anything having to do with God and became slowly but surely became agnostic.

There's no shame in saying, "I don't know." I think it takes an equal leap of faith to say that god doesn't exist than to say he/she/it does.

[Vegitto-kun]

I never was religious, I guess I should of been christian since I did get baptised and shit

[moon_chalice]

Used to be a Catholic.
I'm sorry, I just think the God concept is totally bogus. I would first take the answer of us all being in some crazy Sim game or in a reality that's not actually real than God. Honestly, I would.

[John Locke]

I was born an atheist, none of my parrents were religious, I'm grateful for that.

[Bassoonist]

I was a Methodist or something. At least that's the last church I went to.

Though I can't really ever say I was a "true" believer. I always dreaded church and realized that the idea of it all just seems fake and such.

[AestheticizeAnalog]

I was an agnostic and then I became an agnostic atheist. An agnostic atheist is one who does not have a belief in god, but believes god to be currently unknowable. Before I get bashed for having an inconsistent view people should realize that atheism is concerned with beliefs and agnosticism is concerned with knowledge.

I have been interested in variations of Pantheism recently. I actually consider myself to be somewhat of a pantheist but I would still call myself an agnostic atheist because for all intensive purposes a pantheistic belief does not mean anything. I identify with Naturalistic Pantheism in that i see that god is not some abstract sky daddy but an enigmatic concept relating to existance. And thus the totality of all things is god. This "god" is not conscious but this totality being the manifestation of everything can be viewed as some form that is higher, due to the totality.

It is an interesting ideal for anti theists to look into for it almost is similar to the Eisteinian view of nature and how we can revel at the connections and totality of all things.

[cancerbero_8]

People should remember some of the world's greatest philosophers weren't atheists.
For example, the Greek philosophers...
St. Thomas is a great example too...
St. Anselmus of Canterbury (read his onthological argument about the existance of God)...

And some of those... Let's say, almost "radical atheists" like the overrated Nietzche became crazy and died in a madhouse screaming that Jesus was chasing him...

I have nothing against atheists or spiritualists, I just think some people say they are atheists because it's almost a fad or just because they are pseudo-intellectuals...

[RockGuitarist]

My parents didn't raise me up to believe anything, growing up, I was of no religion, a person told me to check out the christian church, and see if I liked their ideals, adter a few minutes, I left, a bunch of people were outside of the church, and started calling me a " piece of shit christian", I told them I wasn't a christian, and other things that I won't say, they told me that I should go athiest, told me about the good stuff, and bad..... I decided to athiest, ever since, I've been happy, despite the fact that dumbasses hate on me for being athiest.

[Razza]

Protestant.

Really my mom is the only semi-religious person in my family. It's hard to tell about the rest of them.

[AestheticizeAnalog]

People should remember some of the world's greatest philosophers weren't atheists.
For example, the Greek philosophers...
St. Thomas is a great example too...
St. Anselmus of Canterbury (read his onthological argument about the existance of God)...

And some of those... Let's say, almost "radical atheists" like the overrated Nietzche became crazy and died in a madhouse screaming that Jesus was chasing him...

I have nothing against atheists or spiritualists, I just think some people say they are atheists because it's almost a fad or just because they are pseudo-intellectuals...

We also have to take into consideration the fact that it was illegal to be an Atheist for a very long time. Many enlightenment philosophers claimed to be deists; but their views on religion seem to portray more of an agnostic or atheist view. Also, there is the issue of science. Atheism is not viable without the support of the scientific knowledge we have today.

Nietzche is a far from over rated. He saw philosophy for exactly what it was, an attempt to skew objective truth to approach a certain end state. Philosophers only use truth to prove a point that they subjectively see as true. While I think his "Will to Power" is a little insane. His views on moral philosophy and philosophy in general are some of the most enlightened that I have seen.

There are some amazing religious philosophers. Personally the ones you have mentioned (the saints) are rather meh to me. But Kierkegaard for example is an amazing example how a person can be a critical philosopher of the existentialist school while still having a sincere belief in god.

[AbnormallyNormal]

I was an agnostic and then I became an agnostic atheist. An agnostic atheist is one who does not have a belief in god, but believes god to be currently unknowable. Before I get bashed for having an inconsistent view people should realize that atheism is concerned with beliefs and agnosticism is concerned with knowledge.

I have been interested in variations of Pantheism recently. I actually consider myself to be somewhat of a pantheist but I would still call myself an agnostic atheist because for all intensive purposes a pantheistic belief does not mean anything. I identify with Naturalistic Pantheism in that i see that god is not some abstract sky daddy but an enigmatic concept relating to existance. And thus the totality of all things is god. This "god" is not conscious but this totality being the manifestation of everything can be viewed as some form that is higher, due to the totality.

It is an interesting ideal for anti theists to look into for it almost is similar to the Eisteinian view of nature and how we can revel at the connections and totality of all things.

yeah i like pan-theism and de-ism too. because they seem to be what most religious people really truly are talking about.

[Hwon]

Yeah I agree. Even though I like pantheism as a possibility it still doesn't change the fact that we don't know anything provable about God. This is why I am also agnostic.

[Goodfellow]

People should remember some of the world's greatest philosophers weren't atheists.
For example, the Greek philosophers...
St. Thomas is a great example too...
St. Anselmus of Canterbury (read his onthological argument about the existance of God)...

And some of those... Let's say, almost "radical atheists" like the overrated Nietzche became crazy and died in a madhouse screaming that Jesus was chasing him...

I have nothing against atheists or spiritualists, I just think some people say they are atheists because it's almost a fad or just because they are pseudo-intellectuals...

Meh, I never buy into these "Einstein believed in god" arguments.

It's kinda like:

Oh, someone respected was religious:omg
Someone else got mad!!

Big deal. Why should I live life as someone else tells me to?


Don't think I think you thought you were doing the religious Einstein argument though. What you said just got me thinking.

[Red]

My family practiced traditional African religion (Igbo and some yoruba to be exact) then my grandparents were converted and they started practicing roman catholicism, but it's still heavly laced with igbo traditions.

[Taleran]

I never thought about it, I just never picked a faith because I don't believe in the concept of faith.

[Giovanni Rild]

Meh, I never buy into these "Einstein believed in god" arguments.

It's kinda like:

Oh, someone respected was religious:omg
Someone else got mad!!

Big deal. Why should I live life as someone else tells me to?


Don't think I think you thought you were doing the religious Einstein argument though. What you said just got me thinking.

Einstein did believe in God. He's like my favorite scientist of all time.

[Goodfellow]

Einstein did believe in God. He's like my favorite scientist of all time.

Oh, I'm not saying he didn't. I'm just saying that using that fact as an pro-religion argument is rather unimpressive to me.

[Taleran]

yeah basing your like or dislike of a group on the acomplishments of one individual is really weak

[Amaretti]

Einstein did believe in God. He's like my favorite scientist of all time.

But Einstein didn't believe in god. :sag It's like the biggest misunderstanding in history. Some people took what he said out of context and thought he was speaking of organised religion when he called 'science without religion... lame', but he stated several times that he didn't believe in personal Gods and thought the notion was 'naive'.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it."

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is somewhat new kind of religion. I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What i see in Nature is magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. I don't try to imagine a personal God;it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it. The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

He was, I'm sorry to say, a non-theist who spoke of a religious-like reverence for the wonders of the natural universe, rather than the religion most people know of.

[Goodfellow]

But Einstein didn't believe in god. :sag It's like the biggest misunderstanding in history. Some people took what he said out of context and thought he was speaking of organised religion when he called 'science without religion... lame', but he stated several times that he didn't believe in personal Gods and thought the notion was 'naive'.





He was, I'm sorry to say, a non-theist who spoke of a religious-like reverence for the wonders of the natural universe, rather than the religion most people know of.

Heh nice.
Now the question lies. Was that a theistic or atheistic statment :blink?

Is Daoism atheistic:omg?

yeah I know, stupid questions <.<
I just said it before someone else did.

[Amaretti]

Heh nice.
Now the question lies. Was that a theistic or atheistic statment :blink?

It was a pantheistic statement. :P (ie. sexed up atheism)

[Goodfellow]

It was a pantheistic statement. :P (ie. sexed up atheism)

Well then that's solved then:amuse

[Esponer]

People should remember some of the world's greatest philosophers weren't atheists.
For example, the Greek philosophers...
St. Thomas is a great example too...
St. Anselmus of Canterbury (read his onthological argument about the existance of God)...
I'm not trying for an argument, but that's seriously amusing. Those are two of my three least favourite philosophers, along with Descartes. And it's not because they're religious, it's because they're stupid. That said, those two I think are stupid because of their religious arguments, mostly.

Read his ontological argument for the existence of his God? I did, four years ago studying philosophy, and I couldn't stop laughing. It's the most ridiculous piece of nonsense to ever surface before Descartes thought he could make a better ontological "argument". Aquinas's Five Ways are about as inane.

[mislead]

People should remember some of the world's greatest philosophers weren't atheists.
For example, the Greek philosophers...
St. Thomas is a great example too...
St. Anselmus of Canterbury (read his onthological argument about the existance of God)...

What constitutes a "great philosopher" is a matter of opinion purely. For one, not all of the prominent Greek philosophers can easily be labeled as theists (Democritus was a declared atheist, for example), and with many of them we simply don't know (Socrates comes to mind). By the way, you do understand that most of St. Thomas' ideas are directly copied from Aristotle? And that the "ontological proof" is probably Anselm's only worthwile contribution to Western Philosophy? Hardly what I'd call "greatest", but, again, it's just opinion.


And some of those... Let's say, almost "radical atheists" like the overrated Nietzche became crazy and died in a madhouse screaming that Jesus was chasing him...

*sigh*
1. He died of pneumonia, while in care of his sister.
2. His ilness most likely had a genetic cause, and wasn't directly linked to his philosophy.
3. Atheism? I don't recall Nietzsche ever taking a stance on the metaphysical problem of God's existence.

In all honesty, all of this can even be extracted from the wikipedia entry. If you're going to spout nonsense like that, at least make it harder to disprove <3.



Nietzche is a far from over rated. He saw philosophy for exactly what it was, an attempt to skew objective truth to approach a certain end state. Philosophers only use truth to prove a point that they subjectively see as true. While I think his "Will to Power" is a little insane. His views on moral philosophy and philosophy in general are some of the most enlightened that I have seen.

Probably because he didn't really write it. :P It does depend on the edition though.

[AbnormallyNormal]

i wonder what the statistics are for the overall world population of atheists, and i wonder if we can extrapolate that some religions are more disgusting than others, and drive people towards atheism, or maybe some religions are so tame and decent, that people feel liberated enough to 'realize' they are atheists

[cancerbero_8]

We also have to take into consideration the fact that it was illegal to be an Atheist for a very long time. Many enlightenment philosophers claimed to be deists; but their views on religion seem to portray more of an agnostic or atheist view. Also, there is the issue of science. Atheism is not viable without the support of the scientific knowledge we have today.

Nietzche is a far from over rated. He saw philosophy for exactly what it was, an attempt to skew objective truth to approach a certain end state. Philosophers only use truth to prove a point that they subjectively see as true. While I think his "Will to Power" is a little insane. His views on moral philosophy and philosophy in general are some of the most enlightened that I have seen.

There are some amazing religious philosophers. Personally the ones you have mentioned (the saints) are rather meh to me. But Kierkegaard for example is an amazing example how a person can be a critical philosopher of the existentialist school while still having a sincere belief in god.

St. Thomas was a great philosopher, perhaps you bias yourself on his status of "saint", but I suggest you read about him (who knows, perhaps you'll like him).

I forgot about Kierkegaard, but indeed his third stage is about religion (I'm not sure of the names in English, I studied philosophy in another language).

For the record (the other guy who replied), Socrates indeed believed in the greek gods (maybe you can't find that in Wikipedia, but you'll find it in Plato's "Apology", a more reliable source :wink ). If you're too lazy to read it, I'll sumarise it: Socrates was charged on two crimes, corrupting the youth and not believing in the Gods. Socrates refuted the second crime by saying that how come he believed in the daemon (soul) and demigods if he didn't believe in gods? The charges were taken away, but then he had to refute the first argument, which I'm not getting into cause it's irrelevant right now.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that I respect all oppinions, spiritual and atheist... As long as the person is intelligent and respectful enough. I just hate when eg. Catholics say that those who don't believe in God can't achieve full happiness and stuff like that (a priest said that to me once, I had to refrain from smacking his head) and when they simply insult those who don't believe in God. However, at least in my country, most of the times it's the other way around, atheists insult Catholics by saying things like "I fucked the Virgin Mary" and stuff which is really uncalled for, I mean, if they prefer the idea that humans are beings with a supernatural soul rather than they being trapped between the beasts and the ubermensch or that a god/power/force created the universe rather than them being "the offspring of five monkeys having sex with a fish frog" (South Park, 06) let them.

If an atheists respects all beliefs, he has earned my respect.

After all, nothing is certain... I mean, there's a challenge with a 250,000 USD prize to anyone who can prove evolution "is the only possible way" that the Universe and life arose... (search for Kent Hovind in the almighty Wikipedia)

[Freiza]

hmmm....right.foooooooooooollllls lol

[PDQ]

I guess I was Buddhist prior to being Atheist and Buddhist after...I guess I just never associated the deities my mother professed with my religion(nor did she), more like a cultural thing. Although to be fair, I guess I never really believed in those gods, it was more of a 3 year trial kinda thing.

[Chee]

Catholic...or Christian. I dunno.

[TiGel2.]

But Einstein didn't believe in god. :sag It's like the biggest misunderstanding in history. Some people took what he said out of context and thought he was speaking of organised religion when he called 'science without religion... lame', but he stated several times that he didn't believe in personal Gods and thought the notion was 'naive'.





He was, I'm sorry to say, a non-theist who spoke of a religious-like reverence for the wonders of the natural universe, rather than the religion most people know of.

The first quote was referring to the Judo-Christian God. Do not forget Einstein also once said "God does not play dice with the Universe" when discussing Quantum theory. He also described himself as a deeply religious person. He felt that God was revealed as a part of nature, which is as you said, can be considered a form of Pantheism. But he could not be considered a non-theist by any means.

[Hwon]

The first quote was referring to the Judo-Christian God. Do not forget Einstein also once said "God does not play dice with the Universe" when discussing Quantum theory. He also described himself as a deeply religious person. He felt that God was revealed as a part of nature, which is as you said, can be considered a form of Pantheism. But he could not be considered a non-theist by any means.

I would be interested to know the dates of these quotes. After WWII and the start of the cold war the United States was creating propaganda against atheism because Russia was an enforced atheist state. Basicly, if you were atheist you weren't American was the idea and it also the time when "In God We Trust" became the American slogan. So Einstein might have been a little careful not to reveal a direct disbelief in God.

[Giovanni Rild]

But Einstein didn't believe in god. :sag It's like the biggest misunderstanding in history. Some people took what he said out of context and thought he was speaking of organised religion when he called 'science without religion... lame', but he stated several times that he didn't believe in personal Gods and thought the notion was 'naive'.





He was, I'm sorry to say, a non-theist who spoke of a religious-like reverence for the wonders of the natural universe, rather than the religion most people know of.


Well he was still awesome.

[TiGel2.]

I would be interested to know the dates of these quotes. After WWII and the start of the cold war the United States was creating propaganda against atheism because Russia was an enforced atheist state. Basicly, if you were atheist you weren't American was the idea and it also the time when "In God We Trust" became the American slogan. So Einstein might have been a little careful not to reveal a direct disbelief in God.

I am fairly certain they are pre- WWII.

[Esponer]

Einstein made that statement in 1926, in a series of letters to Niels Bohr. My quantum mechanics lecturer taught us more of the history of quantum mechanics than the mathematics.

His religious views are an odd matter indeed. He described himself as religious, but it's unclear if he believed in a god, or at least if he believed in "God" in any vaguely Christian sense.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"What you read" refers to his quotation that God does not play dice with the Universe. Einstein also said he believed in "Spinoza's God", which is rather distinct from the Judeo-Christian God. Spinoza believed that what we might call "god" was merely an extension of the beauty of the natural world, and was not a sentient entity. It's a "god" that I almost believe in myself.

[Amaretti]

The first quote was referring to the Judo-Christian God. Do not forget Einstein also once said "God does not play dice with the Universe" when discussing Quantum theory. He also described himself as a deeply religious person. He felt that God was revealed as a part of nature, which is as you said, can be considered a form of Pantheism. But he could not be considered a non-theist by any means.

Except for the fact that if you actually read his quotes, it was clear that he wasn't a theist and certainly not religious in the conventional sense.

If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it.

I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is somewhat new kind of religion. I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What i see in Nature is magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. I don't try to imagine a personal God;it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it. The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."

Here's another quote from him:

"To sense that behind anything can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious."

The God to which he referred so often is NOT a theistic God. Physicists often invoke the name of God in reference to their awe of the universe (Hawking does it too), but it doesn't have any supernatural or mystical connotations. At all. Einstein's religion is not a conventional religion. It is like Spinozism, in which God is synonymous with Nature. Einstein said he believed in Spinoza's God, which is a pantheistic God... which isn't so much a God as it is just Nature. It is, incidentally, the only God I could ever get behind.

Einstein's religion would not be a religion by most people's standards, and it's led to a lot of confusion. But the misconception that Einstein was a religious theist needs to end because it's simply inaccurate and betraying of the true complexity that is his belief system.

Well he was still awesome.

So true.

[Esponer]

Didn't I just beat you to that?

[Amaretti]

Didn't I just beat you to that?

I blame the parents lag. :shakefist

[mislead]

For the record (the other guy who replied), Socrates indeed believed in the greek gods (maybe you can't find that in Wikipedia, but you'll find it in Plato's "Apology", a more reliable source :wink ). If you're too lazy to read it, I'll sumarise it: Socrates was charged on two crimes, corrupting the youth and not believing in the Gods. Socrates refuted the second crime by saying that how come he believed in the daemon (soul) and demigods if he didn't believe in gods? The charges were taken away, but then he had to refute the first argument, which I'm not getting into cause it's irrelevant right now.

Ok, I stand corrected. Personally, I had always thought of Socrates' defence there as a cheap legal trick of sorts; in all actuality, belief in the Greek pantheon gods doesn't seem too compatible with Socrates' teachings. There's also the fact that Apology is Plato's account of the trial, and that Socrates mentions "God" a few times in his speech, using the term as if it was referencing the traditional theistic concept of God (which Plato agreed with himself). However, you are still correct in pointing out my error.

On an unrelated note, I hate you now. I had to turn my room upside down to find Plato's combined works under a stack of CDs in the corner. And it's all your fault. :(


After all, nothing is certain... I mean, there's a challenge with a 250,000 USD prize to anyone who can prove evolution "is the only possible way" that the Universe and life arose... (search for Kent Hovind in the almighty Wikipedia)

And since proving that is impossible a priori, it only shows that Hovind doesn't really understand how science works.

Except for the fact that if you actually read his quotes, it was clear that he wasn't a theist and certainly not religious in the conventional sense and certainly not religious in the conventional sense.


^^

[AbnormallyNormal]

well i think this poll pretty conclusively demonstrates why there is such a christian phobia among atheists online... 99% of us used to be them

[Esponer]

I thought the more diehard and controversional detractors of Christianity were "born atheist" folk, but I wasn't really paying attention.

[That NOS Guy]

I thought the more diehard and controversional detractors of Christianity were "born atheist" folk, but I wasn't really paying attention.

You'll find the staunchest critics (or even blind hatred of) are ex-members of anything really.

As for the topic, I was a Methodist protestant before I deconverted.

[Kimi Sama]

I've never considered myself religous as far back as I can remember. My parents aren't religous and just left me to make my own mind up.

I've decided I'm more agnostic than atheist these days though, since I'm willing to accept a god could exist, but I've yet to encounter a religion that convinces me it's deity/ies are real.