Jiraiya vs. Itachi

[Esponer]

This is a reboot of the earlier Jiraiya vs. Itachi (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=348173) which obtained 1,162 replies: please continue the debate in this thread (in much the same manner as the conversation threads are rebooted after 2,000 replies).

The specific circumstances for this thread are:Location: Abandoned Amegakure no Sato (Village Hidden in the Rain; where Jiraiya and Pein fought)
Starting Positions: They both have kage bunshin standing 10 metres apart, facing each other on a street. Both of them are hidden somewhere nearby (say 40 metres roughly behind their kage bunshin, hiding).
Restrictions: None. Jiraiya may use sennin mōdo, kuchiyose: Gamabunta, doton: yomi numa, gamaguchi shibari, his barrier jutsu and more. Itachi may use tsukuyomi, amaterasu and susano'o.
Circumstances: Both Jiraiya and Itachi are at full life and stamina. This is Part I Itachi in terms of the condition of his eyes.
For their jutsu and links to them using them: Jiraiya (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=12783075&postcount=140), Itachi (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=14012295&postcount=179).

[SM00TH38]

let me be the 1st to say itachi

[HumanWine]

This is a reboot of the earlier Jiraiya vs. Itachi (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=348173) which obtained 1,162 replies: please continue the debate in this thread (in much the same manner as the conversation threads are rebooted after 2,000 replies).

The specific circumstances for this thread are:
Location: Abandoned Amegakure no Sato (Village Hidden in the Rain; where Jiraiya and Pein fought)
Starting Positions: They both have kage bunshin standing 10 metres apart, facing each other on a street. Both of them are hidden somewhere nearby (say 40 metres roughly behind their kage bunshin, hiding).
Restrictions: None. Jiraiya may use sennin mōdo, kuchiyose: Gamabunta, doton: yomi numa, gamaguchi shibari, his barrier jutsu and more. Itachi may use tsukuyomi, amaterasu and susano'o.
Circumstances: Both Jiraiya and Itachi are at full life and stamina. This is Part I Itachi in terms of the condition of his eyes.
For their jutsu and links to them using them: Jiraiya (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=12783075&postcount=140), Itachi (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=14012295&postcount=179).

Some recommended posts from last thread (will be updated):

Nikushimi's argument about Jiraiya not being able to dodge amaterasu: link (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?p=15440026#post15440026).
Odlam's discussion of recent chapter information ruining the believability of what Itachi said in Part I: link (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?p=15384008#post15384008).
wow, you're even gonna include some of the important posts, to keep things fair.

I honestly dont think this thread can go any further. Its allows going to be, "If Jiraiya can do this before Itachi....," or "If Itachi can do this before Jiraiya....". Both ninja have good chance of winning. Its just the fact that both sides make light of what the other can ninja can do.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

I still think they will kill each other.

[SM00TH38]

wow, you're even gonna include some of the important posts, to keep things fair.

I honestly dont think this thread can go any further. Its allows going to be, "If Jiraiya can do this before Itachi....," or "If Itachi can do this before Jiraiya....". Both ninja have good chance of winning. Its just the fact that both sides make light of what the other can ninja can do.

i agree, with two ppl this powerful whoever gets an opening first could end the fight.. i just believe that itachi genjustu abilities would give a better advantage

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

OK I guess while hidden Jiraiya could activate HM.

This fight can end in a win or draw depending on what happens i.e. if Itachi uses MS early he may lost since he'll have used a lot of chakra.

[Itachi's Apprentice 3]

Itachi wins this with difficulty.

[Uchihaforever]

oh my god..again..itachi takes this.no swamp of the underworld.its over without tat.itachi is going to win.with susanoo.he can just uses susanoo at the first place.actually all the MS teachnique can already kill J-man.it just tat the itachi haters or J-man's fans are talking nonsense.

[Noitora]

I have faith in the J-man that he would be able to pull off a victory, if only barely. More epxierence, and range of jutsu's, probably more chakra.

[martryn]

wow, you're even gonna include some of the important posts, to keep things fair.Two important posts in favor of Itachi. Wow, how lame ass.

If you're suggesting I have a bias towards Itachi, then you should read the previous thread: I argued for Jiraiya. Please give me URLs of the better posts arguing either side in the last thread. I just picked the last two that had merited actual recommendations from other users. —Serenity

The first I don't think is of any relevance. The second is more complicated, and has been debated time and time again. My take on it is that if Oro was trying to kill Itachi, then he would do it. And Oro jumping out in the middle of the Uchiha fight was not really a fair position for Oro, and shouldn't be used to judge how Oro would fair in normal circumstances.

If Itachi and Kisame went to all that trouble to take Naruto and then turned away when faced by Jiraiya, that says something. If Itachi has a chance of taking Jiraiya alone, then surely with the aid of Kisame then it would be guaranteed. Then Naruto would have been their's and the problem solved. But this wasn't the case. Itachi is confronted by Jiraiya, is caught in one of Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and then uses one of his most powerful abilities to escape.

I see Jiraiya rapestomping Itachi. I don't think Itachi stands a prayer against Jiraiya in this circumstance.

[Anwyn]

If Itachi and Kisame went to all that trouble to take Naruto and then turned away when faced by Jiraiya, that says something. If Itachi has a chance of taking Jiraiya alone, then surely with the aid of Kisame then it would be guaranteed. Then Naruto would have been their's and the problem solved. But this wasn't the case. Itachi is confronted by Jiraiya, is caught in one of Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and then uses one of his most powerful abilities to escape.
.

It just says that Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto and fight Jiraiya, since he isn't a "bad" guy...

Really.... is that so hard to understand?

[Totalabsolute]

I have to go with J-Man.... Doing what he does best. Concealing himself, i think almost everyone will agree that Jiraya is the best at trickery and concealing and barriers. Jiraya usually has an ace for every trump card he has ever faught before. I can almost garuntee you that Jiraya has fought against the MS before. Experience will win this fight for jiraya. The closest itachi will come to winning is pulling a draw with susanoo..

[Topher]

Two important posts in favor of Itachi. Wow, how lame ass.

If you're suggesting I have a bias towards Itachi, then you should read the previous thread: I argued for Jiraiya. Please give me URLs of the better posts arguing either side in the last thread. I just picked the last two that had merited actual recommendations from other users. —Serenity

The first I don't think is of any relevance. The second is more complicated, and has been debated time and time again. My take on it is that if Oro was trying to kill Itachi, then he would do it. And Oro jumping out in the middle of the Uchiha fight was not really a fair position for Oro, and shouldn't be used to judge how Oro would fair in normal circumstances.

If Itachi and Kisame went to all that trouble to take Naruto and then turned away when faced by Jiraiya, that says something. If Itachi has a chance of taking Jiraiya alone, then surely with the aid of Kisame then it would be guaranteed. Then Naruto would have been their's and the problem solved. But this wasn't the case. Itachi is confronted by Jiraiya, is caught in one of Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and then uses one of his most powerful abilities to escape.

I see Jiraiya rapestomping Itachi. I don't think Itachi stands a prayer against Jiraiya in this circumstance.

Oro comes out of sasuke's body with full health and charka, while itachi is nearly depleted of all his chakra, sustained injuries from the battle, and wasn't even at 100%; and you state oro wasn't in a fair position?

oro was in a much better position then itachi, but the fact is itachi is much stronger than him whether you like it or not. oro states that himself.

The first post has great relevance to this thread, since it seems some people believe jiraiya can outrun amaretsu, and that isn't the case.

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000390/03.jpg


http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/03.jpg

an Itachi going for the kill can in fact focus his eyes on jiraiya and light him up, he manipulated the amretsu in sasuke's case in order to be cautious.

I won't even discuss the last paragraph, because if you still believe itachi was trying to capture naruto after all these chapters, why am I even wasting my time arguing.........

[MS81]

It's too close to call.:confused

[martryn]

It just says that Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto and fight Jiraiya, since he isn't a "bad" guy...

Really.... is that so hard to understand?

Yeah, it is, seeing has how he had just within the last couple of days he mind fucked his little brother and Kakashi both and almost fucking killed several people, including a woman: Kurenai. And, wasn't he in the area for the purpose of attaining Naruto, so it's sorta a bad defense in his favor if you start saying he wasn't... cause he was.

If you're suggesting I have a bias towards Itachi, then you should read the previous thread: I argued for Jiraiya. Please give me URLs of the better posts arguing either side in the last thread. I just picked the last two that had merited actual recommendations from other users. —Serenity

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that you ended your post, the first post in the thread, with two links to arguments in favor of Itachi that you called "recommended" reading, which does imply a bias to anyone who enters this thread. You seem to imply that Itachi has an upperhand based on those two posts.

The first post has great relevance to this thread, since it seems some people believe jiraiya can outrun amaretsu, and that isn't the case.

I don't think he can either, but I think if Sasuke can throw some fire at it and "block" it that way, Jiraiya can do the same damn thing. What's to say he doesn't use one of his oil techniques to block it, spraying Itachi with oil that is burning from his own damn amaretsu. Hey, look, a scenario for an easy win for Jiraiya.

[Watchman]

Yeah, it is, seeing has how he had just within the last couple of days he mind fucked his little brother and Kakashi both and almost fucking killed several people, including a woman: Kurenai. And, wasn't he in the area for the purpose of attaining Naruto, so it's sorta a bad defense in his favor if you start saying he wasn't... cause he was.

His "stated" aim was to capture Naruto, but from the evidence we've seen, he has no desire to capture Naruto.

Remember him refusing to give any information on Naruto to Sasori and Deidara, and eventually simply saying "he's the loud one?" He doesn't want Naruto to get caught.

More proof? Okay - in the current arc, where Naruto finds Itachi in the forest. That was a prime opportunity for Itachi to capture him, but he didn't, and just left instead. Itachi doesn't want to capture Naruto.

So, it's sorta a bad attack on Itachi if you say he was there to catch Naruto... cause he wasn't.

I'm sure that next chapter, Kishimoto will pull something out his ass to explain why Itachi mindfucking Sasuke and Kakashi was actually a good thing, too.

[Topher]

I don't think he can either, but I think if Sasuke can throw some fire at it and "block" it that way, Jiraiya can do the same damn thing. What's to say he doesn't use one of his oil techniques to block it, spraying Itachi with oil that is burning from his own damn amaretsu. Hey, look, a scenario for an easy win for Jiraiya.

Sasuke did not throw fire at it. sasuke used a katon on itachi and he responded with a katon of his own. when itachi's katon was getting suppressed he then used the amretsu to overwhelm sasuke.

the amretsu was not blocked.It seems like you don't read the manga from what i see you posting.

[Kenpachi_Uchiha]

Itachi wins especially if his eyes and body function like Part I where he used three MS jutsu in one day and was only fatigued and not bleeding from his eyes and coughing up blood.

[Topher]

Jiraiya may actually win if while hiding he goes into hermit mode, puts up his detection barrier, and get the frog song going.

whether or not itachi can break the genjutsu is arguable.

but winning in such a fashion does not indicate jiraiya >> itachi for me.

the way serenity sets up the location, gives jiraiya a good chance.

[UltimateDeadpool]

If you're suggesting I have a bias towards Itachi, then you should read the previous thread: I argued for Jiraiya. Please give me URLs of the better posts arguing either side in the last thread. I just picked the last two that had merited actual recommendations from other users. —Serenity

Too bad they weren't merited users, lol. They mostly quote people they agree with and mock those they don't.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that you ended your post, the first post in the thread, with two links to arguments in favor of Itachi that you called "recommended" reading, which does imply a bias to anyone who enters this thread. You seem to imply that Itachi has an upperhand based on those two posts.

I have to agree Serenity. I know you defended Jiraiya and I know you didn't do it on purpose, but only having those two links look like you're trying to sway opinion. Until you or others find good posts supporting Jiraiya, it would be better not to have those there.

It just says that Itachi didn't want to capture Naruto and fight Jiraiya, since he isn't a "bad" guy...

Really.... is that so hard to understand?

He could had killed Naruto, thus ruining Pein's plan and getting rid of Madara's pet.

His "stated" aim was to capture Naruto, but from the evidence we've seen, he has no desire to capture Naruto.

More proof? Okay - in the current arc, where Naruto finds Itachi in the forest. That was a prime opportunity for Itachi to capture him, but he didn't, and just left instead. Itachi doesn't want to capture Naruto.

I'm sure that next chapter, Kishimoto will pull something out his ass to explain why Itachi mindfucking Sasuke and Kakashi was actually a good thing, too.

We don't know if he desired to capture Naruto or not, he certainly went alot of trouble just to pretend. Jiraiya may had been a good reason for him to flee, Kisame wasn't even sure if Itachi could beat him or not.
And we still have to find out exactly where Madara is headed with the whole "tried to protect everyone" angle. If he wants to get Sasuke to join him, then telling him that kind of stuff isn't a good way to do it... but what if it's Madara's truth? I mean, what if Madara thinks he's the good guy and is telling Sasuke what a good soldier Itachi was? We don't know. Also, a past inteview with Kishimoto revealed that Madara's going to betray Pein.
Basically what's going on right now (until we learn more) is Madara's saying "Sasuke, I'm not your enemy and I don't want to hurt you. I brought you here for shelter and gave you first aid... and I need to tell you something, something important: I'm evil... oh! and you killed Itachi for nothing! Nya-nya!" Not very smart.

That was a Shadow Clone, the real Naruto was with the group.

[muishot]

Shinkakuma "By talking to him. You know, as was shown.

In fact Jiraiya was more interested in simply talking. Pein was the one who attacked."

That is why he is dead now, right ShinAkuma?

[Vangelis]

I still say they both would die.

[Jυstin]

Amaterasu's "after" flames are still Amaterasu, so who says it can't be sealed?

For one, the flames Jiraiya sealed were barely 10% the mass of Amaterasu.
For two, the flames he sealed were stationary.
For three, he had to prepare the seal, something he won't have time to do against a moving Amaterasu that would burn the scroll before it had time to seal it, since it's moving over it.
For four, Jiraiya had to be closely next to the after flames. This isn't going to work on the entire inferno that's in motion.

We can't compare Jiraiya and Orochimaru either except for the Sannin battle where, despite being drugged, Jiraiya was able to match a healthy (albeit handless) Orochimaru's speed two times that we saw, but that fight wasn't really shown. We never even saw Jiraiya's and Orochimaru's first fight 25 years ago, so we have absolutely no idea how they compare against each other, which makes it especially impossible to tell how Jiraiya would compare against Itachi.

While I agree for the most part, Orochimaru saw enough difference to tell Jiraiya, "Even though we both have handicaps, the difference is clear." After seeing Jiraiya struggle with Orochimaru and never a shown victory, while Itachi, twice, brushed Orochimaru aside like he was a pre-academy graduate, I can't help but lean towards Itachi.

Hell, Pein said that he could never had defeated Jiraiya if he knew his secret, so does that automatically mean Orochimaru would have any chance of beating Pein? I mean, by your guys' logic, since Jiraiya would had been able to defeat Pein, then that must mean Orochimaru would defeat Pein.

I agree here. he didn't speak of Jiraiya as in ONLY Jiraiya could have. He was speaking of him as the person who fought him. There is no reason why not to believe that if it were Tsunade fighting, he would have said, "If she had known my secret, I could never have won." It's PEIN'S secret, not Jiraiya's. I'm sure anyone knowing this secret would have a chance....either that, or the Naruverse is screwed since "the only one who could have" defeated Pein is dead...

[bloody_ninja]

It's pretty obvious that Itachi was lying to Kisame, and has been for awhile. Not a single Akatsuki member has yet to reference an Itachi/Orochimaru battle. We as readers know that Orochimaru left because he could not attain Itachi's body, but not a single Akatsuki member has shown knowledge they even had a fight. Kisame even shows alot of ignorance on this particular subject.

Please remember - Itachi did not say he could not take Jiraiya! He did not say that he could not take Jiraiya with Kisame as backup! Jiraiya was never even referenced by name, he was referenced by the title of his unit, one of the legendary sannin! HE SAID HE AND KISAME COULD NOT TAKE ONE OF THE SANNIN! *at least in every single translation I've read, if somebody has one where Jiraiya is singled out by name please show me, I'd rather be proved wrong and educated if I am wrong.

Kisame said that the name of the Sannin made even his name as one of the seven sword's and Itachi's a member of the Uchiha clan appear petty. Itachi agreed that one of the Sannin would be too much to take, even for both of them, and at best they would tie or die!

Then we see a flashback in part 2 of Itachi owning Orochimaru hardcore, and then in the middle of the Sasuke/Itachi fight, Orochimaru emerges to face Itachi's ultimate trump card, and is dwarfed in power by Susanoo's abilities.

From the very moment that we saw the actual flashback of Itachi crushing Orochimaru, we knew he was lying to Kisame about them not being able to take on a member of the Sannin! He'd already fought a memeber of the Sannin and defeated him utterly! The reputed strongest of the three at that!

THIS STATEMENT HAS BEEN GARBAGE FOR FOREVER AND A DAY NOW! CATCH UP PEOPLE, CATCH UP! Itachi didn't say he and Kisame couldn't take on Jiraiya, he said they could not take on an individual Sannin, and the includes Orochimaru and Tsunade! And that's garbage and we alllllllllllllllll know it!

Very much agreed, but I am pretty sure there is a reason for Itachi's "garbage".
Previously, he activated his Mangekkyou Sharingan on Kakashi, using Tsukuyomi, causing tremendous eye strain and chakra usage. It would be too hefty for Itachi to go through another battle using Mangekyou, so instead, he just blasts out a way with Amaterasu, and then let's his eyes rest.

At that moment, Jaraiya was also at a disadvantage. Not only is he fighting 2 members of the Akatsuki, but Naruto is also there, whom he cannot let get harmed. On a 2 vs 1, Itachi or Kisame can easily grab Naruto and hold him hostage. It was the best for both of them that Itachi ran. I am pretty sure that Jaraiya felt relieved when he found out that he didn't have to fight them both.

[ShinAkuma]

Shinkakuma "By talking to him. You know, as was shown.

In fact Jiraiya was more interested in simply talking. Pein was the one who attacked."

That is why he is dead now, right ShinAkuma?

He's dead because he choose to forfeit his life to understand Pein's secret. He could have simply escaped.

[Nikushimi]

From the last thread:

The execution isn't exactly hard to spot.

Considering it is a flame jutsu Jiraiya will probably expect it to be executed from his face in some manner. Bleeding eyes will certainly indicate something is up.

So then you're saying Tobi and Sasuke are just idiots who let themselves get hit? Thts a gd thry. :zaru

1- Sasuke didn't "barely save himself". He used amaterasu to set a trap for Itachi. He knew he wasn't in danger from the get go.

2 - I have no idea where you got the idea "Tobi barely saved himself", but if I had to guess it is simply a horrendous overestimation of the scene between Sasuke and Tobi.

1. How much of it Sasuke had planned his arguable. I don't think Sasuke had ever actually seen the Jutsu in action before, so his knowledge of it couldn't have been all that great, even if he possibly learned something from Orochimaru.

2. Tobi admitted it would've been the end of him, but thankfully even he managed to keep some secrets of his own from Itachi- http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter397.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=47743.


The only reason given was how difficult the jutsu is to detect. Just establishing that.

Now a regular replacement would be easier to detect, however if you replace behind something that obscures Itachi's line of sight it will effectively accomplish the same thing.

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of this statement. The fact is, if it's hard to detect even with Sharingan, which can predict a Jutsu based on the seals and chakra flow, then it means Itachi would probably notice the replacement coming and be able to act accordingly, whereas the shedding Jutsu, which uses no seals and apparently doesn't leave any obvious chakra flow indications, is a different story.

No?

The speed Jiraiya used was shown to be superhumanly fast. That is the point. It is comparable to any other speed feats thus far.

Except, we have seen speed feats from Sasuke, that exceed the speed feats of characters with established reputation for being fast. For instance, base Sasuke was too fast for Deidara to handle on foot, yet Deidara had some problems but was still keeping away from Team Gai while armless. Sasuke also blitzed Tobi, who according to Kisame, who knew only Good Boy Tobi's abilities, is a "fast runner" (this could've been said jokingly, I'll admit that, but I think it should at least be considered).

Those shared vantage points were described as superior to byukagan. Take that as you will.

Wouldn't that apply to the range of their field of vision, not the quality/ability of their vision? No? As I recall, Pein had significant trouble seeing through walls.

Sasuke could possibly be faster. However my point is that they are close.

It's good we can agree on this. But then, now that we've gotten this far, why do you still think Jiraiya can avoid Amaterasu? That's like throwing a ball as hard as you can and then outrunning it. Jutsu speed should naturally exceed the physical speed of the user, no? Especially a Jutsu of Amaterasu's nature, where it forms right on the focused area.

It has been demonstrated in the manga that movement makes it difficult for Itachi to focus amaterasu. Regardless of real world logic, in this manga that is a fact and therefore supersedes real world applications.

Couldn't that demonstration also be subject to the fact that Itachi didn't want to just blow Sasuke to kingdom come?

I'm sure he can still jump, but as far as motion is concerned Itachi still has the same properties even when in susano, meaning it would be equally difficult to avoid with or without susano.

No disagreement here. But we've seen Yomi Numa used effectively twice: on a large snake that would have no possible way of avoiding it, and against a Pein body that was tricked into jumping right into it. If someone was free in an open battlefield, I don't think Jiraiya could just whip out Yomi Numa and go ftw.

Every jutsu is useless unless it can connect with the opponent. It isn't some special weakness of swamp of the underworld.

Yes, but Yomi Numa is a stationary Jutsu once created, and it's size is affected by one or two things: 1. the chakra used to produce it and/or 2. the size of the space in which it is used/size of the target. The first is a definite, the second is speculation, but it fits what we've seen.

Uh, why not?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/166/07/

Formed underneath the snake and the snake.....wait for it.....sunk.

What a coincidence!

Formed under a snake...that was stationary...underneath Jiraiya! D:

A gigantic snake's ability to evade a Jutsu should not be compared to the ability to evade a Jutsu of a person with Itachi's speed, skill, and...well...Sharingan. Yomi Numa needs seals, no? Sasuke mentioned during his fight with Deidara that a Sharingan user can see your seals and use them against you by predicting your next move. We've seen this applied. Hence why it strikes me as ridiculous that Jiraiya could just dish out Yomi Numa while Itachi's standing there and expect it to trap him.

It was stated that sword of totsuka is the ultimate ultimate pinnacle of everything in the narutoverse?

No, I just like saying that. :zaru

A swamp cannot be trapped in a blissful dreamlike genjutsu.

It can be sealed. Genjutsu only works on the brain. An arm does not have a brain. Neither does...most of the body...human, snake, or man-snake. Yet Orochimaru and his Yamata summon were swallowed completely and sealed in Susano'o's gourd.

Another fine example of the incredible overestimation of Itachi's jutsus.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/16/

It traps what it cuts in a blissful dreamlike genjutsu. If it is something that is impossible to genjutsu, like inanimate objects such as rock, then it obviously won't be sucked into a genjutsu.

I normal Genjutsu doesn't "suck in". The sword is stated to possess sealing properties, and whatever it cuts gets absorbed into the gourd. While the sword itself might not be able to cast a Genjutsu on an inanimate object, this doesn't seem to hinder its ability to seal things in the gourd, as demonstrated by...it gobbling up an eight-headed snake along with Orochimaru.

[Antitard]

Jiraiya kicks Itachi's face and wins. No matter how the tards try to twist facts, he still wins. It doesn't matter about his Susanoo or his sealing sword, he won't have time to use it. Any summon can crush Itachi.

[Nikushimi]

You become Kage level when you fight evenly or defeat a Kage level ninja on equal terms.
Gaara lost because he was protecting Suna.


This deserved its own little take-aside by me for some serious talking-to.

You make it sound like Deidara cheated or something. He had to get into Gaara's village, which was by the way located in a DESERT, giving Gaara a grotesque advantage with large amounts of extra sand to use. Deidara was also using C1 exclusively, with the exception of one C3, which he dropped onto the village to draw the EXTRA sand away. At that point, Gaara was left with his Zettai Bougyou- the only thing he'd have if the fight were truly "fair". With only the Zettai Bougyou to defend himself, Gaara...did just that...and took some explosives to the face because Deidara had planted them in that sand. This is already a gross difference so far between these two, but add onto that, Deidara states afterwards that the hardest part was not killing him.

Under those conditions, and using non-lethal force, yes, sir, Deidara is quite obviously high Kage-level. It should be obvious, given that he can reduce a village to molten glass with a single attack. But this is all semi-off-topic. The point was to show that you're misjudging the nature of certain Kage-level shinobi, and even what the term "Kage-level" applies to. This affects our discussion about Itachi vs. Jiraiya, so I figured this was necessary to say to you, and to everyone who might've shared your thoughts.

[Nikushimi]

Jiraiya kicks Itachi's face and wins. No matter how the tards try to twist facts, he still wins. It doesn't matter about his Susanoo or his sealing sword, he won't have time to use it. Any summon can crush Itachi.

You mean like how Itachi's little brother used a boss summon like a cheap tool and got it killed in the blink of an eye for his own self-protection?

Or do you mean like how Jiraiya conjured up a summon that became the environment surrounding Itachi, while he had his back turned and had just used Tsukuyomi, and he still escaped it?

Also, Jiraiya won't be doing any eye-kicking; unlike Pein, Itachi's eyes can predict movement, not just see it from many places at once. Also unlike Pein, Itachi's actually...you know...fast.

[UltimateDeadpool]

I agree here. he didn't speak of Jiraiya as in ONLY Jiraiya could have. He was speaking of him as the person who fought him. There is no reason why not to believe that if it were Tsunade fighting, he would have said, "If she had known my secret, I could never have won." It's PEIN'S secret, not Jiraiya's. I'm sure anyone knowing this secret would have a chance....either that, or the Naruverse is screwed since "the only one who could have" defeated Pein is dead...

I doubt Pein's secret is an off-switch on his back. And just because he was capable of defeating Pein doesn't mean he's the only one, but it does mean that just because Jiraiya could doesn't mean Tsunade or Orochimaru could. They may had been all part of the same team, but they are each vastly different. Like, could Sasuke had defeated Deidara without his Chidori? No, but he had it and it's what gave him a huge advantage that another ninja would not have had.
Speaking of Sasuke, he said that he was able to beat Orochimaru because he was dying (and even then he almost lost), but he beat Itachi who did beat a healthy Orochimaru.

You mean like how Itachi's little brother used a boss summon like a cheap tool and got it killed in the blink of an eye for his own self-protection?

Or do you mean like how Jiraiya conjured up a summon that became the environment surrounding Itachi, while he had his back turned and had just used Tsukuyomi, and he still escaped it?

Also, Jiraiya won't be doing any eye-kicking; unlike Pein, Itachi's eyes can predict movement, not just see it from many places at once. Also unlike Pein, Itachi's actually...you know...fast.

You mean how Sasuke summoned Manda to help him, only to genjutsu his own unsuspecting ally to sarcifice himself?

You mean how he turned his back on a threat, likely believing Kisame could cover him, while he drives another nail into his younger brother's shattered psyche? And I love how you say he "attacked" Itachi from behind when all he did was use a jutsu, it didn't actually start to attack until Itachi turned around.

Yeah, predict movement... that's what saved Kakashi from Zabuza and Kakuzu? That's how Itachi got tricked by Kakashi's Shadow Clone? You mean how Sasuke got slapped around by 1-Tailed Naruto?
And how can you judge how fast Pein is? In your mind Jiraiya's a snail and Pein must be equally as slow, but did it occur to you that Jiraiya is fast?

[Cyphon]

Under the conditions given, Jiraiya could go HM with more ease than their original battle, and once in HM could use frog song to end it

[ShinAkuma]

So then you're saying Tobi and Sasuke are just idiots who let themselves get hit? Thts a gd thry. :zaru

Sasuke planned on being hit and Tobi was hit not because of the execution speed or amaterasu's burn speed, but because Sasuke isn't supposed to have amaterasu and it took Tobi completely off guard.

1. How much of it Sasuke had planned his arguable. I don't think Sasuke had ever actually seen the Jutsu in action before, so his knowledge of it couldn't have been all that great, even if he possibly learned something from Orochimaru.

He planned to force Itachi to use amaterasu and then counter it so that he could set up his winning jutsu.

2. Tobi admitted it would've been the end of him, but thankfully even he managed to keep some secrets of his own from Itachi- http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter397.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=47743.


He also said it was fail.

However that is neither here nor there. I am not saying a completely undefended amaterasu won't be able to kill.

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of this statement. The fact is, if it's hard to detect even with Sharingan, which can predict a Jutsu based on the seals and chakra flow, then it means Itachi would probably notice the replacement coming and be able to act accordingly, whereas the shedding Jutsu, which uses no seals and apparently doesn't leave any obvious chakra flow indications, is a different story.

If one replaces to a point where Itachi cannot directly see then it will effectively counter amaterasu.

If the battlefield is wide open, that may not be an option. However in general there is no logical reason for such a tactic not to work.

Except, we have seen speed feats from Sasuke, that exceed the speed feats of characters with established reputation for being fast.

Sasuke has no quantifiable speed feats, nor does Jiraiya. They have each been shown as really fast.

Now if you don't believe they are comparable in speed I'm sure you can share that hidden knowledge.

Wouldn't that apply to the range of their field of vision, not the quality/ability of their vision? No? As I recall, Pein had significant trouble seeing through walls.

It applies to the ability to protect from attacks. Obviously Pein doesn't have X-ray vision.

It's good we can agree on this. But then, now that we've gotten this far, why do you still think Jiraiya can avoid Amaterasu?

Because amaterasu has been demonstrated as avoidable.

That's like throwing a ball as hard as you can and then outrunning it. Jutsu speed should naturally exceed the physical speed of the user, no? Especially a Jutsu of Amaterasu's nature, where it forms right on the focused area.

I understand the real world logic of it, however it has been demonstrated as avoidable or at least partially avoidable by movement if you aren't already hit with the flames.

Couldn't that demonstration also be subject to the fact that Itachi didn't want to just blow Sasuke to kingdom come?

Not really. The ability to hit and how much burn you want to inflict appear to be unrelated.

Itachi still wanted to hit Sasuke. Sasuke made that difficult through motion. Just because Itachi didn't want to kill has no impact on how he can focus the jutsu.

No disagreement here. But we've seen Yomi Numa used effectively twice: on a large snake that would have no possible way of avoiding it, and against a Pein body that was tricked into jumping right into it. If someone was free in an open battlefield, I don't think Jiraiya could just whip out Yomi Numa and go ftw.

I never said Jiraiya could just swamp for the win. It is simply a powerful jutsu that would be very difficult to deal with and is a viable counter to susanoo.

Yes, but Yomi Numa is a stationary Jutsu once created, and it's size is affected by one or two things: 1. the chakra used to produce it and/or 2. the size of the space in which it is used/size of the target. The first is a definite, the second is speculation, but it fits what we've seen.

Uh, sure. My point still stands however.

Formed under a snake...that was stationary...underneath Jiraiya! D:

A gigantic snake's ability to evade a Jutsu should not be compared to the ability to evade a Jutsu of a person with Itachi's speed, skill, and...well...Sharingan.

I wasn't comparing a giant snakes evasion ability to Itachi, I was dispelling the fallacy that a swamp underneath a person or thing would not cause them to sink.

Yomi Numa needs seals, no? Sasuke mentioned during his fight with Deidara that a Sharingan user can see your seals and use them against you by predicting your next move.

Actually that isn't what Sasuke said. Sasuke said if one could see the seals they could identify the elemental nature of the jutsu being formed. Or at least that is what he implied.

It's not that he can identify the jutsu's application.

We've seen this applied.

Except we haven't. You simply read the manga incorrectly.

No, I just like saying that. :zaru

I guess we can consider this point dead.



It can be sealed.

Oh really? I await your evidence of the swamp previously being sealed.

Genjutsu only works on the brain. An arm does not have a brain. Neither does...most of the body...human, snake, or man-snake. Yet Orochimaru and his Yamata summon were swallowed completely and sealed in Susano'o's gourd.

Actually only Oro was sealed. The yamata summon was not.

Cut yamata bodies unsealed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/12/

Here we see the remaining summon go poof (unsummon) after Oro is sealed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/01/

I normal Genjutsu doesn't "suck in". The sword is stated to possess sealing properties, and whatever it cuts gets absorbed into the gourd.

That is not what was said.

"Anyone or anything it pierces becomes trapped in a blissful dreamlike genjutsu for all eternity....or so the legend goes."

Should be clear that if one cannot be genjutsued one would not be sealed.

While the sword itself might not be able to cast a Genjutsu on an inanimate object, this doesn't seem to hinder its ability to seal things in the gourd, as demonstrated by...it gobbling up an eight-headed snake along with Orochimaru.

Except it didn't gobble up the eight headed hydra, it just gobbled up the part that was attached to Oro.

Besides the distinction between a summon and an inanimate object should be clear.

[Kai]

Speaking of Sasuke, he said that he was able to beat Orochimaru because he was dying (and even then he almost lost), but he beat Itachi who did beat a healthy Orochimaru.
Somewhere in between those events, Sasuke absorbing Orochimaru would have made way for accurate news.

Itachi was also dealing with an unknown handicap.

[Jυstin]

I doubt Pein's secret is an off-switch on his back. And just because he was capable of defeating Pein doesn't mean he's the only one, but it does mean that just because Jiraiya could doesn't mean Tsunade or Orochimaru could. They may had been all part of the same team, but they are each vastly different. Like, could Sasuke had defeated Deidara without his Chidori? No, but he had it and it's what gave him a huge advantage that another ninja would not have had.
Speaking of Sasuke, he said that he was able to beat Orochimaru because he was dying (and even then he almost lost), but he beat Itachi who did beat a healthy Orochimaru.

I'm going to be lenient because I'm tired. I agree on the most part that just knowing his secret doesn't give the fight to you. Knowing how the MS works won't save you either. I'm sure that characters like the Kages, Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and other top teir characters could win if they knew this secret. Alas, ANYTHING either of us say is speculation until we find out what the secret is.

Itachi did beat a healthy Oro twice, but Sasuke didn't beat a healthy Itachi.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

This deserved its own little take-aside by me for some serious talking-to.

You make it sound like Deidara cheated or something. He had to get into Gaara's village, which was by the way located in a DESERT, giving Gaara a grotesque advantage with large amounts of extra sand to use.

Gaara also had a village to protect and using sand takes a lot of chakra right.

Deidara was also using C1 exclusively, with the exception of one C3, which he dropped onto the village to draw the EXTRA sand away. At that point, Gaara was left with his Zettai Bougyou- the only thing he'd have if the fight were truly "fair". With only the Zettai Bougyou to defend himself, Gaara...did just that...and took some explosives to the face because Deidara had planted them in that sand. This is already a gross difference so far between these two, but add onto that, Deidara states afterwards that the hardest part was not killing him.

Under those conditions, and using non-lethal force, yes, sir, Deidara is quite obviously high Kage-level. It should be obvious, given that he can reduce a village to molten glass with a single attack. But this is all semi-off-topic. The point was to show that you're misjudging the nature of certain Kage-level shinobi, and even what the term "Kage-level" applies to.


Had they been away from Suna Gaara would have killed Deidara, now we can continue this through PM.

This affects our discussion about Itachi vs. Jiraiya, so I figured this was necessary to say to you, and to everyone who might've shared your thoughts.

Exactly how does this effect our discussion about Itachi vs Jiraiya:huh

[Agony]

oh my god..i just cant think a jutsu tat jiraiya can use to kill itachi.nothing.nothing at all.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

oh my god..i just cant think a jutsu tat jiraiya can use to kill itachi.nothing.nothing at all.

Some will call you a Itachitard for that comment, but not me:)

[Grimmjowsensei]

Two important posts in favor of Itachi. Wow, how lame ass.

If you're suggesting I have a bias towards Itachi, then you should read the previous thread: I argued for Jiraiya. Please give me URLs of the better posts arguing either side in the last thread. I just picked the last two that had merited actual recommendations from other users. —Serenity

The first I don't think is of any relevance. The second is more complicated, and has been debated time and time again. My take on it is that if Oro was trying to kill Itachi, then he would do it. And Oro jumping out in the middle of the Uchiha fight was not really a fair position for Oro, and shouldn't be used to judge how Oro would fair in normal circumstances.

If Itachi and Kisame went to all that trouble to take Naruto and then turned away when faced by Jiraiya, that says something. If Itachi has a chance of taking Jiraiya alone, then surely with the aid of Kisame then it would be guaranteed. Then Naruto would have been their's and the problem solved. But this wasn't the case. Itachi is confronted by Jiraiya, is caught in one of Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and then uses one of his most powerful abilities to escape.

I see Jiraiya rapestomping Itachi. I don't think Itachi stands a prayer against Jiraiya in this circumstance.


Itachi never intended on capturing naruto anyways. Jiraiya happened to be his legitimate excuse for not capturing Naruto. No matter how biased you are about Itachi(interms of hating him) you should read those 2 posts that Serenity kept from the previous thread. They really sum up the whole thing and the irrelevance of the "Itachi ran away from Jiraiya" arguments.

[Agony]

Some will call you a Itachitard for that comment, but not me:)

emm..ya ..maybe..but is there really any jutsu tat can kill itachi??any??

[ShinAkuma]

Itachi never intended on capturing naruto anyways. Jiraiya happened to be his legitimate excuse for not capturing Naruto. No matter how biased you are about Itachi(interms of hating him) you should read those 2 posts that Serenity kept from the previous thread. They really sum up the whole thing and the irrelevance of the "Itachi ran away from Jiraiya" arguments.

That entire logic makes no sense.

Itachi never intended to capture Naruto so he initiates a plan to....capture Naruto?

If he really wanted to avoid capture he would have said that Jiraiya would slaughter them, instead of saying he could stalemate Jiraiya.

[Watchman]

That entire logic makes no sense.

Itachi never intended to capture Naruto so he initiates a plan to....capture Naruto?

If he really wanted to avoid capture he would have said that Jiraiya would slaughter them, instead of saying he could stalemate Jiraiya.

Keeping up appearances. If, as a member of Akatsuki, your stated goal is to capture a Jinchuuriki, you're going to raise a lot of suspicion if you avoid the Jinchuuriki.

[ShinAkuma]

Keeping up appearances. If, as a member of Akatsuki, your stated goal is to capture a Jinchuuriki, you're going to raise a lot of suspicion if you avoid the Jinchuuriki.

Except the part where he says he and Jiraiya would stalemate.

One can keep up appearances by saying you can't go after Naruto when Jiraiya is around because he will kill you.

Instead he says it isn't too dangerous to try even with Jiraiya there, which really doesn't make much sense.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

emm..ya ..maybe..but is there really any jutsu tat can kill itachi??any??

Look at Jiraiya's jutsu list and find out.

[martryn]

I'll believe the Itachi is a good guy when I hear it said in specifics. I'm not going to take the bad guy's word on it that Itachi is a good guy until we learn more info on what made Itachi a good guy.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

I'll believe the Itachi is a good guy when I hear it said in specifics. I'm not going to take the bad guy's word on it that Itachi is a good guy until we learn more info on what made Itachi a good guy.

QFT............................................... .......................................

[Agony]

Look at Jiraiya's jutsu list and find out.

emm..actually i dont need to..bcoz there's actually no jutsu tat jiraiya has to defeat itachi.smile-big

j-man fans just have to admit it n the itachi haters always doesnt make any sense.

[martryn]

emm..actually i dont need to..bcoz there's actually no jutsu tat jiraiya has to defeat itachi.

Uhm, yes, there are. How about a simple Rasengan. There you go, and jutsu to defeat Itachi that is a part of Jiraiya's vast repertoire.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

emm..actually i dont need to..bcoz there's actually no jutsu tat jiraiya has to defeat itachi.smile-big

j-man fans just have to admit it n the itachi haters always doesnt make any sense.


Ultimate Rasengan
Rasengan
The Toad song
The Toad mouth
The Food cart destroyer jutsu
The Swamp of the Underworld
other jutsu I can't be bothered to type up atm

[Ragormha]

Except the part where he says he and Jiraiya would stalemate.

One can keep up appearances by saying you can't go after Naruto when Jiraiya is around because he will kill you.

Instead he says it isn't too dangerous to try even with Jiraiya there, which really doesn't make much sense.

Umm, how about because Itachi and Kisame are strong and thus it would be purely stupid to say "wow, this guy is so far outa our league, we gotta run" because no one is like that compared to most of Akatsuki, there are strogner ninja but none of them are that overpoweringly strong, with the possible exceptions of Konan and Hidan.

Not to mention Itachi is smart, he knows what passes as a better excuse and what doesn't and the excuse he gave was pretty plausible; the fact you use it to argue proves that and provides ample defence if he is called on it.

[Grimmjowsensei]

That entire logic makes no sense.

Itachi never intended to capture Naruto so he initiates a plan to....capture Naruto?

If he really wanted to avoid capture he would have said that Jiraiya would slaughter them, instead of saying he could stalemate Jiraiya.

We thought he planned to capture Naruto. But he didn't. When Kakashi asked him what they were doing in Konoha, he told what they were after right away. I mean who even does that? who reveals their secret mission? Itachi obviously warned em, to protect Naruto.

He could have said that it was none of their bussiness and fuck off and Kakashi and the others would think he was after Sasuke or something. Then Naruto would get no protection(which means no Jiraiya) so he'd be an easy prey.

As I said, after Madara revealed that Itachi is a good guy, the whole concept has changed but you are trying to understand the whole thing from the same point of view as before. Thats why you are stuck in that mind set.

Why didn't he say they'd get slaughtered ? Because it is not Itachi's style. Kisame may believe in what Itachi says but I am sure he isn't dumb(2 s ranked missing nins being slaughtered by 1 man and 1 of them being Itachi?) Itachi only wanted to point out that It would be too risky to try to capture Naruto. Then he added " Naruto kun is no threat to us in his current condition". His point was made, no need to argue about it.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

As I said, after Madara revealed that Itachi is a good guy, the whole concept has changed but you are trying to understand the whole thing from the same point of view as before. Thats why you are stuck in that mind set.

Because we need more evidence.
This argument could be more stronger with evidence next week.

[SM00TH38]

Guys can we give the whole " itachi said :blahblah" a rest... this holds no ground here at all, itachi also said that "only a uchiha can beat him" but y'all constanstly ignore that statement. itachi also said that "tsukuyomi is unbreakable" y'all ignore this as well ( dont bring up sasuke because he has a sharingan, something jiraiya doesnt have ).

seriously, can we move on to something else... hmmm like how is jiraiya going to avoid a finger genjustu?

[ShinAkuma]

Umm, how about because Itachi and Kisame are strong and thus it would be purely stupid to say "wow, this guy is so far outa our league, we gotta run" because no one is like that compared to most of Akatsuki, there are strogner ninja but none of them are that overpoweringly strong, with the possible exceptions of Konan and Hidan.

Sure, but Itachi could say it is too risky to go after Naruto with Jiraiya there. He doesn't have to create a totally ridiculous lie. Instead he only says Jiraiya is as strong as himself and then proceeds to go after Naruto.



As I said, after Madara revealed that Itachi is a good guy, the whole concept has changed but you are trying to understand the whole thing from the same point of view as before. Thats why you are stuck in that mind set.

Actually I am trying to understand it from the POV of a good guy. That's why it doesn't make sense.

[Hiroshi]

Guys can we give the whole " itachi said :blahblah" a rest... this holds no ground here at all, itachi also said that "only a uchiha can beat him" but y'all constanstly ignore that statement. itachi also said that "tsukuyomi is unbreakable" y'all ignore this as well ( dont bring up sasuke because he has a sharingan, something jiraiya doesnt have ).
Itachi said only an Uchiha has the potential to beat him, yet how much do we know about the validity of this statement. Itachi said that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable yet Sasuke broke free of it. I bring up Sasuke because sure his Sharingan was part of it, but his will to break free was another aspect.

seriously, can we move on to something else... hmmm like how is jiraiya going to avoid a finger genjustu?
If an outside source, such as Chiyo and Sakura were able to use Kai
to get Naruto out of this jutsu, I believe that Jiraiya may have the potential to break free of this genjutsu or avoid it on his own.

As for Itachi's performance in the Sasuke/Itachi fight, we have to keep in mind that that was not Itachi at 100%.

[SM00TH38]

Itachi said only an Uchiha has the potential to beat him, yet how much do we know about the validity of this statement. Itachi said that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable yet Sasuke broke free of it. I bring up Sasuke because sure his Sharingan was part of it, but his will to break free was another aspect.

thats the whole point.. we dont know the validity of any of itachi's statements. so for ppl to act like the statement he made to kisame about jiraiya, there is no validity in that comment, and to use it a base of agruement is silly IMO

If an outside source, such as Chiyo and Sakura were able to use Kai
to get Naruto out of this jutsu, I believe that Jiraiya may have the potential to break free of this genjutsu or avoid it on his own.

if one of his summons is on the playing field that would help him in breaking free... i do believe jiraiya can dispel most genjustu but if he is caugt in something as complex as tsukuyomi the fight would be over IMO

As for Itachi's performance in the Sasuke/Itachi fight, we have to keep in mind that that was not Itachi at 100%.

i agree, we dont know what was itachi health going into the sasuke fight

[Agony]

Ultimate Rasengan
Rasengan
The Toad song
The Toad mouth
The Food cart destroyer jutsu
The Swamp of the Underworld
other jutsu I can't be bothered to type up atm


1.ultimate rasengan-yata's mirror can defend it.
2.rasengan-yata's mirror
3.the toad song-its dispellable.itachi is a beast when it comes to genjutsu. so,he of course knows how to dispell it.
4.the toad mouth-yata's mirror will protect itachi.
5.The food cart destroyer-yata's mirror.
6.the swamp of the underworld-itachi can uses sharingan to detect wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use.so its useless.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

I guess Jiraiya can start at Hermit mode if he is hidden, then Ma and Pa and prepare the toad song while Itachi goes for Jiraiya, then when he is found Itachi will be in the Genjutsu and Jiraiya would win.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

1.ultimate rasengan-yata's mirror can defend it.
2.rasengan-yata's mirror
3.the toad song-its dispellable.itachi is a beast when it comes to genjutsu. so,he of course knows how to dispell it.
4.the toad mouth-yata's mirror will protect itachi.
5.The food cart destroyer-yata's mirror.
6.the swamp of the underworld-itachi can uses sharingan to detect wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use.so its useless.

He hasn't shown that he could so no

It protects Itachi not his surroundings

Nope, how exactly can he see what jutsu Jiraiya is going to use?

Susano'o does not give him infinite chakra, have you forgotten it takes a lot of chakra?

[Agony]

I guess Jiraiya can start at Hermit mode if he is hidden, then Ma and Pa and prepare the toad song while Itachi goes for Jiraiya, then when he is found Itachi will be in the Genjutsu and Jiraiya would win.

emm..itachi can uses kage bunshin.he uses kage bunshin to search jiraiya.when jiraiya kills the kage bunshin then itachi know it.while ma and pa using the toad song,itachi can dispel it easily.he can straight away uses susanoo to attack jiraiya. when his kage bunshin is being attacked.at tat moment,jiraiya doesnt even know where the hell is itachi bcoz itachi is hiding too.

[Agony]

He hasn't shown that he could so no

It protects Itachi not his surroundings

Nope, how exactly can he see what jutsu Jiraiya is going to use?

Susano'o does not give him infinite chakra, have you forgotten it takes a lot of chakra?

he uses gokakyuu no jutsu twice,tsukiyomi once,uses genjutsu almost over five time while talking to sasuke,amaterasu twice and then at last,susanoo.

imagine itachi is going to use susanoo at the first place and his eye sight is not badly effected.imagine tat happening man,wad will happen??

when kirin hit itachi,everywhere was destroyed.then why itachi is not injured?its because yata's mirror protects his surrounding.itachi can even detect kirin which is faster then the speed of sound.wad jutsu does j-man has tat is faster then kirin??none.maybe itachi notice kirin o maybe susanoo automatically protected him.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

emm..itachi can uses kage bunshin.he uses kage bunshin to search jiraiya.when jiraiya kills the kage bunshin then itachi know it.while ma and pa using the toad song,itachi can dispel it easily.he can straight away uses susanoo to attack jiraiya. when his kage bunshin is being attacked.at tat moment,jiraiya doesnt even know where the hell is itachi bcoz itachi is hiding too.

Yeah Jiraiya can wait, he isn't stupid enough to go out, it tricked Itachi's superior and it will trick Itachi:edu

he uses gokakyuu no jutsu twice,tsukiyomi once,uses genjutsu almost over five time while talking to sasuke,amaterasu twice and then at last,susanoo.

imagine itachi is going to use susanoo at the first place and his eye sight is not badly effected.imagine tat happening man,wad will happen??

when kirin hit itachi,everywhere was destroyed.then why itachi is not injured?its because yata's mirror protects his surrounding.itachi can even detect kirin which is faster then the speed of sound.wad jutsu does j-man has tat is faster then kirin??none.maybe itachi notice kirin o maybe susanoo automatically protected him.

It will protect Itachi not his surroundings of the ground he stands on, again do you think he has infinite chakra, because you know the MS takes a lot of chakra with each use, and Itachi can only use it 4 times.

But alas they will just kill each other.

[Grimmjowsensei]

I guess Jiraiya can start at Hermit mode if he is hidden, then Ma and Pa and prepare the toad song while Itachi goes for Jiraiya, then when he is found Itachi will be in the Genjutsu and Jiraiya would win.

You can't hide from Sharingan.

Itachi will sense the chakra emited by the soundwaves and figure out it is some type of a genjutsu. he'd use Amaterasu on Jman or summon Susano'o right away. Even if he manages to interrupt the song before its finished he could cancel the genjutsu.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

You can't hide from Sharingan.

Itachi isn't Madara he won't get there at the speed of light.

Itachi will sense the chakra emited by the soundwaves and figure out it is some type of a genjutsu. he'd use Amaterasu on Jman or summon Susano'o right away. Even if he manages to interrupt the song before its finished he could cancel the genjutsu.

You underrate the Sannin Jiraiya, like he won't try to run while making the song, then when its ready he'll jump in front of Itachi and let the toads sing.

[ShinAkuma]

You can't hide from Sharingan.

Sharingan can see through walls now?

Even if he manages to interrupt the song before its finished he could cancel the genjutsu.

Are you saying Itachi could break Frog song or stop it from completion?

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Are you saying Itachi could break Frog song or stop it from completion?

He's saying he could break it.

[ShinAkuma]

He's saying he could break it.

*shakes head*

Ridiculous.

[SM00TH38]

Sharingan can see through walls now?

the sharingan can see the color of charka, sasuke was able to tell where diedra's underground bombs where at. i bet that the soundwaves would have a color to them as well, because charka is needed to put someone in a genjustu.


Are you saying Itachi could break Frog song or stop it from completion?

why wouldnt itachi be able to stop frog song. if one of the frogs is forced to stop singing the song wouldnt work. as good as itachi is with kb he could easily attack jiraiya at all three sides forcing the frogs to help defend jiraiya and themselves

its funny that jiraiya is able to out run/or avoid amatersu but itachi cant interupt some frogs singing...:facepalm

[Jυstin]

*shakes head*

Ridiculous.

Proof that he can't doesn't exist. Without argument, Itachi is the greatest and most powerful Genjutsu user in the manga.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Proof that he can't doesn't exist. Without argument, Itachi is the greatest and most powerful Genjutsu user in the manga.

But do we know if he can break the frog song?

[Nikushimi]

Gaara also had a village to protect and using sand takes a lot of chakra right.

And village-busting bombs don't??? :zaru

Had they been away from Suna Gaara would have killed Deidara, now we can continue this through PM.

No.

Had they been away from Suna, Gaara would not have the extra sand, only the Zettai Bougyou, which means he takes a bomb to the face even sooner. If Deidara was fighting with intent to kill, the total battle time would probably be halved. If Deidara was prepared with intent to kill...shit...Gaara gets raped from all kinds of directions.

Exactly how does this effect our discussion about Itachi vs Jiraiya:huh

It affects Itachi by extension (i.e., Itachi>Deidara).

[Jυstin]

But do we know if he can break the frog song?

People are automatically thinking he can't, while there is no 100% evidence either way. There is next to 0% in favor of Itachi being unable as opposed to at least 50% due to his reputation and ability with Genjutsu.

Given both sides of the case, and the evidence, I see more reason to say Itachi CAN as opposed to CAN'T.

[Nikushimi]

You mean how Sasuke summoned Manda to help him, only to genjutsu his own unsuspecting ally to sarcifice himself?

It still worked. Why is this any different than if someone else did it? Summons don't know what's going on 'til they're summoned.

You mean how he turned his back on a threat, likely believing Kisame could cover him, while he drives another nail into his younger brother's shattered psyche? And I love how you say he "attacked" Itachi from behind when all he did was use a jutsu, it didn't actually start to attack until Itachi turned around.

Jiraiya had already trapped them within the perimeter of the Jutsu, thus gaining an advantage before Itachi could do anything about it. The attack itself may not have been used immediately, but the entire thing was already set-up and ready to go. The freaking hallway was the attack.

Yeah, predict movement... that's what saved Kakashi from Zabuza and Kakuzu? That's how Itachi got tricked by Kakashi's Shadow Clone? You mean how Sasuke got slapped around by 1-Tailed Naruto?
And how can you judge how fast Pein is? In your mind Jiraiya's a snail and Pein must be equally as slow, but did it occur to you that Jiraiya is fast?

Don't bullshit me.

Zabuza had a Jutsu that nullified Sharingan's superior ocular abilities. Kakuzu was flat-out superior by leaps and bounds. Itachi's Shouten was held by Kakashi's clone. Sasuke could still see Ichibi Naruto's chakra flow, but couldn't react to his movements because the chakra acted independently of Naruto's body.

These are all special criteria that Jiraiya does not meet. Also, Jiraiya has shown no exceptional speed feats beyond Sennin Moodo. Pein has shown none. I would put Pein's bodies and base Jiraiya in tier 4.5 for Speed, around the same as Kakashi, or possibly tier 5, near base Gai. But I have not seen adequate speed demonstrations from these two, and anyway, speed isn't the only thing that determines a characters power, so they can still be as fast as the likes of Kakashi yet remain overall as powerful as...say...Kakuzu. Though Kakuzu could probably handle two Pein bodies and base Jiraiya would either need Gamabunta or Sennin Moodo to handle him. That's my take on it.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

And village-busting bombs don't??? :zaru

Sand takes more

No.

Had they been away from Suna, Gaara would not have the extra sand, only the Zettai Bougyou, which means he takes a bomb to the face even sooner. If Deidara was fighting with intent to kill, the total battle time would probably be halved. If Deidara was prepared with intent to kill...shit...Gaara gets raped from all kinds of directions.[/QUOTE]

No, remember Shukaku for back up?



It affects Itachi by extension (i.e., Itachi>Deidara).

It doesn't effect Itachi>Deidara.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

People are automatically thinking he can't, while there is no 100% evidence either way. There is next to 0% in favor of Itachi being unable as opposed to at least 50% due to his reputation and ability with Genjutsu.

Given both sides of the case, and the evidence, I see more reason to say Itachi CAN as opposed to CAN'T.

Well so far no one has broken out of it, so until someone does then its a defeat for who ever hears it.

[sworder]

People are automatically thinking he can't, while there is no 100% evidence either way. There is next to 0% in favor of Itachi being unable as opposed to at least 50% due to his reputation and ability with Genjutsu.

Given both sides of the case, and the evidence, I see more reason to say Itachi CAN as opposed to CAN'T.

If Uchihas can break REAL dimensions (Oro's dimension), I don't see why they couldn't dispel a fake and illusory dimension.

[Nikushimi]

Sasuke planned on being hit and Tobi was hit not because of the execution speed or amaterasu's burn speed, but because Sasuke isn't supposed to have amaterasu and it took Tobi completely off guard.

So you're saying Jiraiya can't be caught off-guard? :zaru

He planned to force Itachi to use amaterasu and then counter it so that he could set up his winning jutsu.

Maybe so. But what does this prove, again?

He also said it was fail.

However that is neither here nor there. I am not saying a completely undefended amaterasu won't be able to kill.

You can't take a play on words seriously- "fail-safe, though he only got as far as the 'fail' part". He admitted that it could've cost him his life; obviously, it "failed" because it didn't, but it could have.

If one replaces to a point where Itachi cannot directly see then it will effectively counter amaterasu.

If the battlefield is wide open, that may not be an option. However in general there is no logical reason for such a tactic not to work.

Sharingan can see chakra, even through solid matter. Sasuke demonstrated this by locating Deidara's underground landmines. Itachi would still see his target. Also, a substitution requires that you switch places with something. If Sharingan can predict movement based on chakra flow, shouldn't it be able to see where you're substituting to?

Sasuke has no quantifiable speed feats, nor does Jiraiya. They have each been shown as really fast.

Now if you don't believe they are comparable in speed I'm sure you can share that hidden knowledge.

As I've said, Sasuke has shown to be faster than Deidara in base, who can at the very least stay out of Team Gai's reach on foot (including Gai himself). He also blitzed one of Oro's Stage Two guards pretty nicely, and was able to appear right at Naruto's side from a fairly long distance before he could turn a hair.

What has Jiraiya shown? The ability to run around Pein real fast...only to have every attack he throws rendered ineffective because of Pein's ability to see him from three angles. What has Pein showed? Well...nothing. Obviously, he's not slow, but there's no reason at all to assume he's especially fast.

It applies to the ability to protect from attacks. Obviously Pein doesn't have X-ray vision.

Pein's ability to protect himself and the ability of Byakugan users to protect themselves both relate to their large fields of vision, as I said. :zaru

Because amaterasu has been demonstrated as avoidable.

No it hasn't. :zaru

Sasuke didn't avoid it; he got hit, and he removed it from himself using a shedding Jutsu known only to himself and Orochimaru. I don't see how Jiraiya qualifies. Just because a Jutsu's full effects can be avoided doesn't mean anyone can avoid them. Also, the Jutsu was stated, including through Sasuke's admission, to be unavoidable. So Sasuke himself doesn't consider what he did as "avoiding".

I understand the real world logic of it, however it has been demonstrated as avoidable or at least partially avoidable by movement if you aren't already hit with the flames.

Who says Itachi was trying to hit him directly? It seemed more like he was just trying to catch the tip of his wing on fire and light him up indirectly.

Not really. The ability to hit and how much burn you want to inflict appear to be unrelated.

Itachi seemed to want to ignite his wing, not blast his head off. So I would have to disagree with you here, completely.

Itachi still wanted to hit Sasuke. Sasuke made that difficult through motion. Just because Itachi didn't want to kill has no impact on how he can focus the jutsu.

As I've been saying, where and to what extent he wanted to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu both have significant impact on how he could focus the Jutsu.

I never said Jiraiya could just swamp for the win. It is simply a powerful jutsu that would be very difficult to deal with and is a viable counter to susanoo.

Hardly. It can either be avoided or sucked up. :/

I wasn't comparing a giant snakes evasion ability to Itachi, I was dispelling the fallacy that a swamp underneath a person or thing would not cause them to sink.

Obviously, if you're caught, you will sink. That's not the fallacy. The fallacy is thinking there's no way to avoid getting caught.

Actually that isn't what Sasuke said. Sasuke said if one could see the seals they could identify the elemental nature of the jutsu being formed. Or at least that is what he implied.

It's not that he can identify the jutsu's application.

Regardless of what he implied, he made a pretty general statement in regards to the fact that it was a bad move to let Sharingan users see your hand-signs.

Except we haven't. You simply read the manga incorrectly.

Kakashi using Suiton: Suiryuudan no Jutsu on Zabuza before Zabuza himself could use it says otherwise. :zaru

Oh really? I await your evidence of the swamp previously being sealed.

Neither of us can provide solid evidence either way; we can only infer based on what we do know.

Actually only Oro was sealed. The yamata summon was not.

Cut yamata bodies unsealed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/12/

Here we see the remaining summon go poof (unsummon) after Oro is sealed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/01/

Are you playing games with me? Susano'o's gourd quite clearly absorbed the decapitated snake body.

That is not what was said.

"Anyone or anything it pierces becomes trapped in a blissful dreamlike genjutsu for all eternity....or so the legend goes."

Should be clear that if one cannot be genjutsued one would not be sealed.



Except it didn't gobble up the eight headed hydra, it just gobbled up the part that was attached to Oro.

Besides the distinction between a summon and an inanimate object should be clear.

Genjutsu works by affecting the brain.

Stated.

The headless Yamata summon had no brain, yet it was sealed. Hell, Orochimaru was physically sealed, despite the fact that his body is not a gigantic brain. Genjutsu isn't supposed to "seal" things anyway. But in this instance, we see Genjutsu-immune things sealed.

Obviously, there is some discrepancy here. :zaru

[Nikushimi]

Sand takes more

If you're not going to be serious, neither will I. You won't like it. :zaru

No, remember Shukaku for back up?

Gaara was spamming Shukaku limbs in the fight.

Shukaku is just an insane bastard who likes yelling.

Akatsuki eat Bijuu for breakfast. They're grrrreat. :zaru

It doesn't effect Itachi>Deidara.

It does. Because Deidara being stronger than Gaara by the insane gap that he is affects Itachi's placement on the Narutoverse power tier, for being >Deidara.

While ABC logic isn't something that should be relied on exclusively, it does have its accurate points, and for the most part, can generally draw the right conclusion, with backup evidence.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

If you're not going to be serious, neither will I. You won't like it. :zaru

Gaara has to use chakra to use the sand and to maintain his sand armor.

Gaara was spamming Shukaku limbs in the fight.

He could have used more CIS I suppose.

Shukaku is just an insane bastard who likes yelling.

I know he is awesome.

Akatsuki eat Bijuu for breakfast. They're grrrreat. :zaru

No thats Pein's statue.

It does. Because Deidara being stronger than Gaara by the insane gap that he is affects Itachi's placement on the Narutoverse power tier, for being >Deidara.


No, Itachi has already proven how powerful he is, I doubt someone he wtfpwnd would make any difference.

[Nikushimi]

Gaara has to use chakra to use the sand and to maintain his sand armor.

1. It takes chakra to do anything.

2. Gaara is a Jinchuuriki with superhuman reserves of chakra.

He could have used more CIS I suppose.

???

I know he is awesome.

Unfortunately, a poor match for Deidara's more strategic approaches.

No thats Pein's statue.

:zaru

No, Itachi has already proven how powerful he is, I doubt someone he wtfpwnd would make any difference.

Their placement on the Narutoverse power tier affects the significance of Itachi wtfpwning them.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

1. It takes chakra to do anything.

A lot in Gaara's case.

2. Gaara is a Jinchuuriki with superhuman reserves of chakra.

He isn't Naruto, nor does he have a 9 tailed fox in him.


Unfortunately, a poor match for Deidara's more strategic approaches.

Shukaku would solo Deidara:pek

:zaru

:dupe

Their placement on the Narutoverse power tier affects the significance of Itachi wtfpwning them.

So rather then Itachi>Deidara>Gaara it would be Itachi>Gaara>Deidara.

[UltimatefanGreg]

Yeah, it is, seeing has how he had just within the last couple of days he mind fucked his little brother and Kakashi both and almost fucking killed several people, including a woman: Kurenai. And, wasn't he in the area for the purpose of attaining Naruto, so it's sorta a bad defense in his favor if you start saying he wasn't... cause he was.



I'm not saying that, I'm saying that you ended your post, the first post in the thread, with two links to arguments in favor of Itachi that you called "recommended" reading, which does imply a bias to anyone who enters this thread. You seem to imply that Itachi has an upperhand based on those two posts.



I don't think he can either, but I think if Sasuke can throw some fire at it and "block" it that way, Jiraiya can do the same damn thing. What's to say he doesn't use one of his oil techniques to block it, spraying Itachi with oil that is burning from his own damn amaretsu. Hey, look, a scenario for an easy win for Jiraiya.
Your wrong Itachi is bad he has been trying to kill Katachi for years.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Your wrong Itachi is bad he has been trying to kill Katachi for years.

Who is Katachi:huh???

[Nikushimi]

A lot in Gaara's case.

A lot in Deidara's case; those explosions are serious business. :zaru

He isn't Naruto, nor does he have a 9 tailed fox in him.

He's still a Jinchuuriki.

Shukaku would solo Deidara:pek

Shukaku would end up getting killed in a humiliating fashion. Deidara was content with dishing out some casual C1 at the Sanbi, and he didn't seem particularly concerned for his own safety.

So rather then Itachi>Deidara>Gaara it would be Itachi>Gaara>Deidara.

Moar like Itachi>Deidara>Deidara w/o killing intent>Deidara unprepared w/o killing intent>Gaara w/ Suna advantage>Gaara.

[Nikushimi]

Who is Katachi:huh???

Well you see when a mommy Kakashi and a daddy Itachi love eachother very much... :zaru

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

A lot in Deidara's case; those explosions are serious business. :zaru

More for Gaara.

He's still a Jinchuuriki.

Not the 9 tailed one.

Shukaku would end up getting killed in a humiliating fashion. Deidara was content with dishing out some casual C1 at the Sanbi, and he didn't seem particularly concerned for his own safety.

Shukaku is smarter, and has a Jinchuriki that can use its power to the max.

Moar like Itachi>Deidara>Deidara w/o killing intent>Deidara unprepared w/o killing intent>Gaara w/ Suna advantage>Gaara.

Incorrect, but how does Gaaravs Deidara affect Itachi vs Jiraiya?

[Final Jutsu]

I thought about this hard.. I use to think jiraiya. Now, Itachi wins. I thought.. how would jiraiya counter amaterasu? He go in a frog? it burns.. he summon a frog to counter ? it burns.. hes too slow even in hermit mode.. thanks to sharingan prediction.. frog song takes too long to use.. still, IF he uses frog song before itachi can susanoo.. jiraiya might win.. if itachi falls for it. If susanoo is used.. jiraiya has to by time.. maybe nonstop summons.. stil.. if theories are correct and susannoo moves at itachis speed.. it might just be too much for jiraiya.. both = perhaps, but for now I think itachi.

[omgbbq]

itachi wins

[ShinAkuma]

why wouldnt itachi be able to stop frog song. if one of the frogs is forced to stop singing the song wouldnt work. as good as itachi is with kb he could easily attack jiraiya at all three sides forcing the frogs to help defend jiraiya and themselves

its funny that jiraiya is able to out run/or avoid amatersu but itachi cant interupt some frogs singing...:facepalm

What are you talking about???

Proof that he can't doesn't exist. Without argument, Itachi is the greatest and most powerful Genjutsu user in the manga.

Frog song is the only jutsu thus far that has been described as a sure win. That implies once it is applied it cannot be broken.

There is zero reason to assume Itachi could break it.

So you're saying Jiraiya can't be caught off-guard? :zaru

Not in the manner Tobi was, at least not in a fight.

Maybe so. But what does this prove, again?

That Sasuke allowed himself to be hit by amaterasu in order to fool Itachi.

You can't take a play on words seriously- "fail-safe, though he only got as far as the 'fail' part". He admitted that it could've cost him his life; obviously, it "failed" because it didn't, but it could have.

What is the point of this?

Sharingan can see chakra, even through solid matter.

It can see chakra through a limited amount of broken ground. It cannot see through walls and such.

Itachi would still see his target.

He failed to see Kakashi bunshin underground.

Also, a substitution requires that you switch places with something. If Sharingan can predict movement based on chakra flow, shouldn't it be able to see where you're substituting to?

Would it really matter if Itachi's vision is obscured?

As I've said, Sasuke has shown to be faster than Deidara in base, who can at the very least stay out of Team Gai's reach on foot (including Gai himself).

All Deidara did was briefly defend himself and then run away from an exhausted team Gai.

What has Jiraiya shown? The ability to run around Pein real fast...only to have every attack he throws rendered ineffective because of Pein's ability to see him from three angles. What has Pein showed? Well...nothing. Obviously, he's not slow, but there's no reason at all to assume he's especially fast.

There isn't any reason to assume any speed feat is especially better than another without anything to quantify them.

From a writers POV Kishi is simply trying to establish that these characters are fast.

No it hasn't. :zaru

Actually it was. Itachi said Sasuke dodged it. The point at which Sasuke replaced could have been done at any point, even right before it hits.

Plus logically anybody with enough movement speed could avoid it.

So Sasuke himself doesn't consider what he did as "avoiding".

But Itachi felt he dodged it.

Who says Itachi was trying to hit him directly? It seemed more like he was just trying to catch the tip of his wing on fire and light him up indirectly.

LOL.

Sure. Whatever.

Since Itachi can purposely extinguish the amaterasu flames he would have no need to "hit the tip of his wing". If you thought Itachi was trying to hit the tip of Sasuke's wing that is probably because Sasuke was running away from it and amaterasu had to play catch up.

Itachi seemed to want to ignite his wing,

Explained above. There is no logic to such an assumption when Itachi can control the flames.

As I've been saying, where and to what extent he wanted to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu both have significant impact on how he could focus the Jutsu.

He has no reason to hold back because he can control the flames.

Hardly. It can either be avoided or sucked up. :/

This fanboy nonsense needs to stop. There is no logical or manga reason the swamp could be "sucked up".

You're welcome to provide evidence of the swamp ever being sealed in any manner or evidence of Sasanoo sealing inanimate objects.

I'll give you a hint - neither exists. Once you understand that perhaps you can examine why you would have ever come to such a ridiculous assumption.

Here's a bit of hilarity of your double standard.

To you swamp of the underworld can either be dodged or sealed with a genjutsu. The reality is it has never been shown to be dodged nor has it ever been shown to be sealed in any fashion, let alone with a genjutsu. (LMAO!)

Yet, and this is the best part, amaterasu cannot/unlikely to be dodged nor is it likely Jiraiya could seal it, even though both have been demonstrated.

Love that double standard.

Regardless of what he implied,

No, not regardless. Your assumption was completely invalid and thus has no influence on my points. Not only that but you keep basing your "logic" on assumptions about what you have failed to read correctly.

Much of what you believe is influenced by incorrect information.

Kakashi using Suiton: Suiryuudan no Jutsu on Zabuza before Zabuza himself could use it says otherwise. :zaru

It was established that he simply copied it on the fly.

Neither of us can provide solid evidence either way; we can only infer based on what we do know.

We know it has never been sealed and we have never seen sasanoo seal anything inanimate. Plus only something with a mind can be genjutsued.

Logically it would not be sealed.

Are you playing games with me? Susano'o's gourd quite clearly absorbed the decapitated snake body.

Clearly, except it didn't.

http://i26.tinypic.com/345is0i.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/53s5ty.jpg

Sasanoo sealed the part attached to Oro. Only when something capable of being genjutsued appeared could susanoo seal. Previous to that it cut up yamata with no sealing ability. Which should have been obvious from the art and Zetsus commentary.

The fact that it didn't seal Yamata when it cut the heads implies it may not seal on something without intellect.....

Genjutsu works by affecting the brain.

Stated.

Swamps don't have brains.

The headless Yamata summon had no brain, yet it was sealed.

Sasanoo only sealed when Oro was present and attached to Yamata. Therefore it did have a brain, Oro's. Previous to that there was no sealing to be seen. In fact the parts that were removed from Yamata yet cut by Sasanoo did not get sealed.

http://i31.tinypic.com/53s5ty.jpg

A part of the yamata summon going poof. That is no genjutsu seal, that is an unsummon.

Add to that there is zero evidence that totsuka could seal anything inanimate or unliving.

[Lucien Lachance]

Itachi wins this with difficulty.

I agree. Sounds good.

[maximilyan]

imo, it all depends on how long itachi can use susano. it'd be hella close.. but i'd go with jiraiya.

[ninja man]

Itachi is screwed lol :amuse

[Grimmjowsensei]

Sharingan can see through walls now?

He didn't say j would hide behind a wall. I am talking about the start up. Also, as far as I remember, Sasuke could see the mines of dei beneath the ground.

He's saying he could break it.

no I don't lol, just read it again.

Are you saying Itachi could break Frog song or stop it from completion?

Stop it from completion.

[ShinAkuma]

He didn't say j would hide behind a wall. I am talking about the start up. Also, as far as I remember, Sasuke could see the mines of dei beneath the ground.

Yet Itachi could not see Kakashi in his doton.

Sasuke could see the bombs probably due to them not being deep. They were referred to as landmines after all.

Stop it from completion.

Certainly possible.

[Jυstin]

Frog song is the only jutsu thus far that has been described as a sure win. That implies once it is applied it cannot be broken.

I have to ask you where in God's good name you got this idea from.

[HumanWine]

Yet Itachi could not see Kakashi in his doton.

Sasuke could see the bombs probably due to them not being deep. They were referred to as landmines after all.



Certainly possible.

That wasnt even the real Itachi, just some cheap carbon copy.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/04/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/05/
Plus he was only focusing on one of the Kakashi's. The eye haxx cant tell the difference btwn KB and the real thing.

[Jυstin]

That wasnt even the real Itachi, just some cheap carbon copy.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/04/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/05/
Plus he was only focusing on one of the Kakashi's. The eye haxx cant tell the difference btwn KB and the real thing.

Agreed :wink

And to expand...there's nothing saying Itachi didn't see it since he dodged it instantly when Kakashi attacked him(at any rate, it doesn't matter since Itachi was able to avoid it in the end). I hate when people assume things and then tell you that your counter assumption is wrong.

[ShinAkuma]

That wasnt even the real Itachi, just some cheap carbon copy.

The shoten clone was the same as the real Itachi with less chakra.

I have to ask you where in God's good name you got this idea from.

http://i28.tinypic.com/f4fucm.jpg

Do you actually read the manga at all?

Seriously?

[sworder]

Lol, that's just bias. Jiraiya says his technique is unbeatable and you point it out like it's a fact and then try to degrade him.

We point out that Amaterasu is stated to be unavoidable, that Tsukuyomi is instant win against anyone not Uchiha, and that Itachi was claimed to be invincible with Susanoo and you call us fanboys.

Double standards, much? :zaru

[ShinAkuma]

Lol, that's just bias. Jiraiya says his technique is unbeatable and you point it out like it's a fact and then try to degrade him.

Jiraiya didn't say it was unbeatable, Pa frog did.

We point out that Amaterasu is stated to be unavoidable,

And then shown to be avoided.

When you have something as stated yet the opposite is shown, what is shown will always take precedent.

that Tsukuyomi is instant win against anyone not Uchiha,

Where has it been stated tsukiyomi is an instant win? I know it can't be broken, but an certain win?

and that Itachi was claimed to be invincible with Susanoo

Actually it is sasanoo combined with totsuka that was described as invincible.

And I never said you could kill Itachi while sasanoo is active.

and you call us fanboys.

It's the lies and/or misrepresentation of anything Itachi does that paints those involved as fanboys.

Double standards, much? :zaru

Not really. Just because you come screaming about double standards doesn't mean they exist.

[sworder]

Jiraiya didn't say it was unbeatable, Pa frog did.

I don't really think statements made by 3rd parties are absolutely canon. Plus it's not like Pa had no reason to be biased, especially when talking about his whole technique...

And then shown to be avoided.

When you have something as stated yet the opposite is shown, what is shown will always take precedent.

Amaterasu didn't get avoided. This is what happened.

Itachi uses Amaterasu, Sasuke runs, Itachi HITS Sasuke with Amaterasu, Sasuke uses the rebirth technique and creates a new body under that floor which Itachi can't see, Itachi stops Amaterasu.

He avoided the damage by creating a new body, he didn't avoid the attack since it was stopped. Unless Jiraiya can create a new body and hide it from Itachi, he's getting hit by it.

Where has it been stated tsukiyomi is an instant win? I know it can't be broken, but an certain win?

IIRC, Itachi said only an Uchiha can beat his technique BTS. And honestly, I don't see anyone escaping it in any better condition than Kakashi...

Actually it is sasanoo combined with totsuka that was described as invincible.

And I never said you could kill Itachi while sasanoo is active.

Nice to know then.

It's the lies and/or misrepresentation of anything Itachi does that paints those involved as fanboys.

That doesn't always happen on purpose though, and people just believe different things and have different opinions on it.

Not really. Just because you come screaming about double standards doesn't mean they exist.

I still feel the same way, because you're trying to pass off Amaterasu as if it got avoided when it didn't.

[Maximus]

Nice job Serenity. Itachi takes this again. I like how you posted Odlam's post. It's quite important IMO.

[ShinAkuma]

I don't really think statements made by 3rd parties are absolutely canon. Plus it's not like Pa had no reason to be biased, especially when talking about his whole technique...

You obviously would apply that same sentiment to anything said about Itachi, correct?


Amaterasu didn't get avoided. This is what happened.

Itachi uses Amaterasu, Sasuke runs,

The fact that one can run away from it shows it is avoidable.

Itachi HITS Sasuke with Amaterasu, Sasuke uses the rebirth technique and creates a new body under that floor which Itachi can't see, Itachi stops Amaterasu.

Getting hit is part of the plan to trick Itachi. However there is no reason that Sasuke could not replace before he was hit.

IIRC, Itachi said only an Uchiha can beat his technique BTS. And honestly,

So he never actually said it was an "instant win".

Just another example of a gross overestimation of Itachi's jutsus.

I don't see anyone escaping it in any better condition than Kakashi...

I wouldn't expect you to.

Nice to know then.

Try reading what is being said before you go off the handle about "double standards".

That doesn't always happen on purpose though,

That has nothing to to with being a fanboy.

If you are predisposed to believe something despite the facts that would make you a fanboy.

and people just believe different things and have different opinions on it.

Carrying illogical and unsupported opinions is the hallmark of fanboys.

People can have any opinion they want, just don't expect it to always make sense.

I still feel the same way,

I didn't expect you to change your mind.

because you're trying to pass off Amaterasu as if it got avoided when it didn't.

I explained why it was avoided or dodged.

Even if some some unknown reason Sasuke could not replace before being hit one could simply replace before any significant damage - ie:once you are hit. Resulting in avoiding/dodging the jutsu for all intents and purposes.

With what has been demonstrated there is no logical reason why it could not be dodged completely/or at least mostly.

Perhaps I should say amaterasu is theoretically avoidable and certainly "dodgeable".

[Agony]

It will protect Itachi not his surroundings of the ground he stands on, again do you think he has infinite chakra, because you know the MS takes a lot of chakra with each use, and Itachi can only use it 4 times.But alas they will just kill each other.

kirin hit itachi from the sky which means coming from the sky..then how did yata's mirror protect itachi??the explosive clan sasuke use directly hit itachi but yata's mirror saved him..tat means itachi can control the movement of yata's mirror.which means tat he could possibly protect him from the ground.
*shakes head*

Ridiculous.
ridiculous???frog song is not a genjutsu which cannot be dispel like tsukiyomi.tsukiyomi is a genjutsu tat can only be dispel by an uchiha.do u read the manga??has it been said tat frog song cannot be dispel??
If Uchihas can break REAL dimensions (Oro's dimension), I don't see why they couldn't dispel a fake and illusory dimension.
nice.
Itachi is screwed lol :amuse
proof please.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

kirin hit itachi from the sky which means coming from the sky..then how did yata's mirror protect itachi??the explosive clan sasuke use directly hit itachi but yata's mirror saved him..tat means itachi can control the movement of yata's mirror.which means tat he could possibly protect him from the ground.
.

It was aiming for Itachi unlike the toad mouth and the swamp which change his surroundings.

[Agony]

It was aiming for Itachi unlike the toad mouth and the swamp which change his surroundings.

i mean tat itachi can control the movement of yata's mirror,why not controlling it to the ground when J-man uses The Swamp Of The Underworld??

while yata's mirror portecting itachi from the ground,The Swamp Of the Underworld will be useless.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

i mean tat itachi can control the movement of yata's mirror,why not controlling it to the ground when J-man uses The Swamp Of The Underworld??

while yata's mirror portecting itachi from the ground,The Swamp Of the Underworld will be useless.

No, it protects in coming attacks charging at Itachi not the goddamn ground he stands on, and we know he can't keep Susano'o out for long.

[ShinAkuma]

ridiculous???frog song is not a genjutsu which cannot be dispel like tsukiyomi.tsukiyomi is a genjutsu tat can only be dispel by an uchiha.do u read the manga??has it been said tat frog song cannot be dispel??

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509774&postcount=97

[UltimateDeadpool]

I don't really think statements made by 3rd parties are absolutely canon. Plus it's not like Pa had no reason to be biased, especially when talking about his whole technique...

Amaterasu didn't get avoided. This is what happened.

Itachi uses Amaterasu, Sasuke runs, Itachi HITS Sasuke with Amaterasu, Sasuke uses the rebirth technique and creates a new body under that floor which Itachi can't see, Itachi stops Amaterasu.

He avoided the damage by creating a new body, he didn't avoid the attack since it was stopped. Unless Jiraiya can create a new body and hide it from Itachi, he's getting hit by it.

IIRC, Itachi said only an Uchiha can beat his technique BTS. And honestly, I don't see anyone escaping it in any better condition than Kakashi...

I don't think a 3rd party counts as canon when Zetsu said that Amaterasu was the most powerful ninjutsu, and I think Itachi's biased when talking about his MS.

Itachi uses Amaterasu, Sasuke stays ahead of it for a while so he can spread Amaterasu around, then he (purposely?) gets hit and tricks Itachi using the Orochi Kawarimi (he said that he was waiting for Itachi to use Amaterasu so he could use the Orochi Kawarimi so he likely let himself get hit). Then while Itachi's going to take the fake Sasuke's eyes, Sasuke shoots a couple Great Dragon Fireballs in junction with Amaterasu to create storm clouds without Itachi interfering.

You seem to be arguing something differently than us. You're arguing that Amaterasu is unavoidable and is a one-hit kill, we're arguing that it's not unavoidable and is not a one-hit kill. Even if Sasuke didn't completely get away from it, he did show that it's avoidable and can be escaped.

Itachi stopped Amaterasu from reaching Sasuke's head, he didn't stop it from barbecuing Sasuke. And Jiraiya can make a new body. Amaterasu stops when it hits something, so a Shadow Clone or a Kawarimi would stop it. Not saying Itachi wouldn't try it again, but they would work.

You do not recall correctly.

[SM00TH38]

ROFL there is a lot of vote for itachi...

i dont know about sasuke getting hit on purpose, i can see it but i dont know. what i do know is that the kawarimi that sasuke used is totally differant then a regular kawarimi or shadow clone, so to say that jiraiya would be able to do the same would be underestamting sasuke and Oro kawarimi

[UltimateDeadpool]

i do know is that the kawarimi that sasuke used is totally differant then a regular kawarimi or shadow clone, so to say that jiraiya would be able to do the same would be underestamting sasuke and Oro kawarimi

The Orochi Kawarimi Sasuke used was for a completely different strategy than a normal Kawarimi or Shadow Clnoe. Sasuke wanted to trick Itachi to buy himself time, Jiraiya just has to get away. Sasuke couldn't had tricked Itachi with a normal Kawarimi because his duplicate would turn into a block of wood or something, and I don't think he knows how to make Shadow Clones.

It still worked. Why is this any different than if someone else did it? Summons don't know what's going on 'til they're summoned.

Jiraiya had already trapped them within the perimeter of the Jutsu, thus gaining an advantage before Itachi could do anything about it. The attack itself may not have been used immediately, but the entire thing was already set-up and ready to go. The freaking hallway was the attack.

Don't bullshit me.

Zabuza had a Jutsu that nullified Sharingan's superior ocular abilities. Kakuzu was flat-out superior by leaps and bounds. Itachi's Shouten was held by Kakashi's clone. Sasuke could still see Ichibi Naruto's chakra flow, but couldn't react to his movements because the chakra acted independently of Naruto's body.

These are all special criteria that Jiraiya does not meet. Also, Jiraiya has shown no exceptional speed feats beyond Sennin Moodo. Pein has shown none. I would put Pein's bodies and base Jiraiya in tier 4.5 for Speed, around the same as Kakashi, or possibly tier 5, near base Gai. But I have not seen adequate speed demonstrations from these two, and anyway, speed isn't the only thing that determines a characters power, so they can still be as fast as the likes of Kakashi yet remain overall as powerful as...say...Kakuzu. Though Kakuzu could probably handle two Pein bodies and base Jiraiya would either need Gamabunta or Sennin Moodo to handle him. That's my take on it.

It's a completely different scenario. Sasuke summoned an ally who had no reason to believe Sasuke would put him in a genjutsu, it's like calling someone over to help you and then punch them in the face.

Who's bullshitting who? You make it sound like Itachi had no idea Jiraiya was there and got cheap-shotted from behind, the fact is that Itachi knew Jiraiya was there and purposely turned his back on him.

Zabuza did have the Hidden Mist technique, but how about the times they were trading taijutsu without it? They were equals, despite Kakashi's Sharingan. Kakuzu was flat out superior, and there was nothing the Sharingan could do about it. Sasuke could still see the chakra (which you don't even need the Sharingan to do) and could not avoid it, where as Orochimaru (who does not have a Sharingan) could.

Itachi hasn't shown any exceptional speed either, him and Kakashi are roughly even. Speed isn't what determines "power," but some Itachi supporters believe that Itachi can take a leak faster than Jiraiya can move.

[Agony]

No, it protects in coming attacks charging at Itachi not the goddamn ground he stands on, and we know he can't keep Susano'o out for long.
itachi killed oro in such a short time.he also handled sasuke.if it wasnt for the injury bfore the battle,he could have killed sasuke too.
itachi uses such a short time to kill one of the sannin which is almost the same level as jiraiya.then how much time do u really think itachi need to eliminate jiraiya?

itachi is in 100%no bad eyesight not using any MS technique yet,not injured before battle which means100%chakra and he will be using susanoo at the first place.so susanoo can be use in a long time.

jiraiya doesnt even know a single thing about MS.without knowing tat,jiraiya will have a big disadvantage.itachi could still detect wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use but jiraiya cant detect anything tat itachi is going to use.which means an advantage to itachi but an disadavantage to jiraiya.

with so much advantages n u still think itachi cant win?itachi could see wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use.so Swamp of the goddamn world is useless.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509774&postcount=97

tat doesnt proof tat in cannot be dispel.it just said they could finish pein off and pein is not a genjutsu user but itachi is.jiraiya doesnt know anything about MS he is also clueless against genjutsu.he could have been killed if he look at itachi's eyes or hand.sharingan can see chakra which means no matter where jiraiya hide is useless.

[sworder]

You obviously would apply that same sentiment to anything said about Itachi, correct?

I'm trying to reach a consensus here. If you agree they shouldn't be taken seriously, so will I. If you don't, then basically by your admission Itachi is invincible with Susanoo. Any way it goes, it works for me. You can't have it both ways.

The fact that one can run away from it shows it is avoidable.

Running =/= avoiding. Amaterasu appears on you too, look at Tobi. Itachi simply didn't do that or he would completely eradicate his body, which he didn't want since he wanted Sasuke alive.

Getting hit is part of the plan to trick Itachi. However there is no reason that Sasuke could not replace before he was hit.

He could, but Itachi would notice. That's why he didn't.

So he never actually said it was an "instant win".

Just another example of a gross overestimation of Itachi's jutsus.

Lol no, you get trapped in Tsukuyomi, you lose. Saying otherwise is crap.

I wouldn't expect you to.

So Jiraiya can take a full Tsukuyomi and fight back?

Try reading what is being said before you go off the handle about "double standards".

It is still double standards, you're avoiding the question. I'm just humoring you, you very obviously should know every statement made in the manga is not absolute.

I explained why it was avoided or dodged.

Even if some some unknown reason Sasuke could not replace before being hit one could simply replace before any significant damage - ie:once you are hit. Resulting in avoiding/dodging the jutsu for all intents and purposes.

With what has been demonstrated there is no logical reason why it could not be dodged completely/or at least mostly.

Perhaps I should say amaterasu is theoretically avoidable and certainly "dodgeable".

Yeah, it's avoidable, as long as you can recreate another body that doesn't have Amaterasu on it. Too bad Jiraiya can't do it.

[sworder]

I don't think a 3rd party counts as canon when Zetsu said that Amaterasu was the most powerful ninjutsu, and I think Itachi's biased when talking about his MS.

Itachi uses Amaterasu, Sasuke stays ahead of it for a while so he can spread Amaterasu around, then he (purposely?) gets hit and tricks Itachi using the Orochi Kawarimi (he said that he was waiting for Itachi to use Amaterasu so he could use the Orochi Kawarimi so he likely let himself get hit). Then while Itachi's going to take the fake Sasuke's eyes, Sasuke shoots a couple Great Dragon Fireballs in junction with Amaterasu to create storm clouds without Itachi interfering.

You seem to be arguing something differently than us. You're arguing that Amaterasu is unavoidable and is a one-hit kill, we're arguing that it's not unavoidable and is not a one-hit kill. Even if Sasuke didn't completely get away from it, he did show that it's avoidable and can be escaped.

Itachi stopped Amaterasu from reaching Sasuke's head, he didn't stop it from barbecuing Sasuke. And Jiraiya can make a new body. Amaterasu stops when it hits something, so a Shadow Clone or a Kawarimi would stop it. Not saying Itachi wouldn't try it again, but they would work.

You do not recall correctly.

So do I about Jiraiya, which means his Frog Song isn't as instant win as you claim. So yeah, he's also biased.

False, stop making up random scenarios to support your favorite character. Sasuke said himself Amaterasu was unavoidable, which means he did try to avoid it and got hit anyways. Plus Itachi could've killed him if he wanted, he just wanted Sasuke alive.

Sasuke created another body to ESCAPE it, not avoid it. If you get hit, which Sasuke did, you didn't avoid it. And a kawarimi obviously can't stop it, that's a baseless assumption.

Amaterasu does not stop, Itachi stops it. Itachi has no reason to stop it for Jiraiya. Once it's on you, no shadow clone is saving you. Plus they poof instantly, they wouldn't trick Itachi. If you substitute, the flames will still be on you. That's why Sasuke created a whole NEW body without Amaterasu, because just substituting doesn't get the flames off you.

[UltimateDeadpool]

Running =/= avoiding. Amaterasu appears on you too, look at Tobi. Itachi simply didn't do that or he would completely eradicate his body, which he didn't want since he wanted Sasuke alive.

Lol no, you get trapped in Tsukuyomi, you lose. Saying otherwise is crap.

So Jiraiya can take a full Tsukuyomi and fight back?

Yeah, it's avoidable, as long as you can recreate another body that doesn't have Amaterasu on it. Too bad Jiraiya can't do it.

You're overestimating Amaterasu's ability to burn. If it were as powerful as you believe it is, Tobi would had been missing his upper body the moment Sasuke inadvertently used it, but that isn't what happened. If Amaterasu were that powerful, Sasuke would had only been a head when he got hit by it... but as shown, Amaterasu can't even burn a forest in less than an hour. And if Itachi wanted Sasuke alive, he wouldn't had used such lethal force. He was obviously fighting for real. To test Sasuke? Perhaps, but it was real.

It's not crap, there's a 50/50 chance that Jiraiya could escape it, but it's debatable if he'd get caught in it thanks to his Detection Barrier.

If Sasuke can break free with sheer hatred and Jiraiya can resurrect himself with will-power, then it's possible. I don't know how possible, but it's not impossible.

It is avoidable.

False, stop making up random scenarios to support your favorite character. Sasuke said himself Amaterasu was unavoidable, which means he did try to avoid it and got hit anyways. Plus Itachi could've killed him if he wanted, he just wanted Sasuke alive.

Sasuke created another body to ESCAPE it, not avoid it. If you get hit, which Sasuke did, you didn't avoid it. And a kawarimi obviously can't stop it, that's a baseless assumption.

Amaterasu does not stop, Itachi stops it. Itachi has no reason to stop it for Jiraiya. Once it's on you, no shadow clone is saving you. Plus they poof instantly, they wouldn't trick Itachi. If you substitute, the flames will still be on you. That's why Sasuke created a whole NEW body without Amaterasu, because just substituting doesn't get the flames off you.

I'm not making anything up, I made a summary of what happened. Heh, Itachi also said that Sasuke avoided it. Itachi obviously could not defeat Sasuke. And what kind of logic would that make? "Sasuke, I'm 2x more powerful than you, but I'm going to let you kill me so that you can fight my fight."

Sasuke left his skin behind for Amaterasu to burn, it's the same principle with a Kawarimi or Shadow Clone. And saying the Orochi Kawarimi is the only way to escape it is a bad assumption.

Amaterasu stops when it hits something, there's nothing to suggest otherwise. And Sasuke needed to trick Itachi so he could prepare Kirin unhindered, Jiraiya just needs to survive. What do you mean the flames will be on you if you Substitute? Amaterasu is supposed to burn whatever it hits until it's gone, so by that definition, Amaterasu should had stayed on Sasuke after he molted his skin... but it didn't.

[Agony]

You're overestimating Amaterasu's ability to burn. If it were as powerful as you believe it is, Tobi would had been missing his upper body the moment Sasuke inadvertently used it, but that isn't what happened. If Amaterasu were that powerful, Sasuke would had only been a head when he got hit by it... but as shown, Amaterasu can't even burn a forest in less than an hour. And if Itachi wanted Sasuke alive, he wouldn't had used such lethal force. He was obviously fighting for real. To test Sasuke? Perhaps, but it was real.

It's not crap, there's a 50/50 chance that Jiraiya could escape it, but it's debatable if he'd even get caught in it thanks to his Detection Barrier.

If Sasuke can break free with sheer hatred and Jiraiya can resurrect himself with will-power, then it's possible. I don't know how possible, but it's not impossible.

It is avoidable.
nah man..u're understimating amaterasu.amaterasu is unavoidable.sasuke escape because he has a kawarimi tat only oro has.itachi said only oro has tat kawarimi.nobody has it.only oro has.it is a kawarimi tat is very difficult ot detect.its not a normal kawarimi.tat's the reason it coz a lot chakra.a normal kawarimi doesnt coz so much chakra.

j-man's kawarimi can be detected easily by itachi.itachi will know which one is the real J-man.no one ever avoid amaterasu.no one.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

itachi is in 100%no bad eyesight not using any MS technique yet,not injured before battle which means100%chakra and he will be using susanoo at the first place.so susanoo can be use in a long time.

Um, his eyesight is still quite fucked from previous uses.

jiraiya doesnt even know a single thing about MS.

Like Itachi knows shit about HM.

without knowing tat,jiraiya will have a big disadvantage.

W/o knowing that Itachi will also have a disadvantage.

itachi could still detect wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use but jiraiya cant detect anything tat itachi is going to use.

As I recall you failed to tell me how Itachi will predict the jutsu Jiraiya will use.

which means an advantage to itachi but an disadavantage to jiraiya.


Read above comment.

with so much advantages n u still think itachi cant win?

I think they'd kill each other, and I also think you seriously underrate Jiraiya.

itachi could see wad jutsu jiraiya is going to use.so Swamp of the goddamn world is useless.


It would be useless if Itachi could keep jumping. But that would leaf him wide open for an attack.

[ShinAkuma]

I'm trying to reach a consensus here. If you agree they shouldn't be taken seriously, so will I. If you don't, then basically by your admission Itachi is invincible with Susanoo. Any way it goes, it works for me. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not the one trying to have it both ways.

I don't doubt that Itachi cannot be hurt while in Susanoo. Jiraiya doesn't need to kill him to defeat him.

Swamp of the underworld and frog song will immobilize until Susanoo runs out.

Running =/= avoiding. Amaterasu appears on you too, look at Tobi.

Tobi was not in a battle situation. He was completely surprised and it still took two and a half pages to burn him.

Itachi simply didn't do that or he would completely eradicate his body,

Nonsense. Amaterasu has never, and let me be clear here, never eradicated anything in an instant fashion.(if that is what you are attempting to infer) Itachi had enough time to hold back the flames against Sasuke.

Yet another example of how Itachi's abilities are grossly overestimated.

He could, but Itachi would notice. That's why he didn't.

Which goes back to my point of replacing behind something that obscures Itachi's vision effectively countering amaterasu.

Lol no, you get trapped in Tsukuyomi, you lose.

Tsukiyomi hasn't even killed anybody. It simply breaks their spirit. Kakashi was still good to chat afterwards for a while.

Saying otherwise is crap.

So you accept that frog song would win for Jiraiya?

So Jiraiya can take a full Tsukuyomi and fight back?

I would say it is possible considering Jiraiya had the willpower to will himself back from the dead.

It is still double standards, you're avoiding the question.

No, I have answered it.

I'm just humoring you,

Please continue. I have no problem destroying your "logic" and revealing your fanboy tendencies.

you very obviously should know every statement made in the manga is not absolute.

The irony.

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509849&postcount=98

If you don't believe every statement to be absolute why do you keep chirping about everything said on Itachi?

I could go through the old thread and find all the double standardy nonsense you posted, but I think you get the point.

Yeah, it's avoidable, as long as you can...

Run away?

Replace before it hits?

Obscure Itachi's vision.

[UltimateDeadpool]

nah man..u're understimating amaterasu.amaterasu is unavoidable.sasuke escape because he has a kawarimi tat only oro has.itachi said only oro has tat kawarimi.nobody has it.only oro has.it is a kawarimi tat is very difficult ot detect.its not a normal kawarimi.tat's the reason it coz a lot chakra.a normal kawarimi doesnt coz so much chakra.

j-man's kawarimi can be detected easily by itachi.itachi will know which one is the real J-man.no one ever avoid amaterasu.no one.

Sasuke left his skin behind for Amaterasu to burn, it's the same principle as Kawarimi or Shadow Clone. Sasuke also wanted to trick Itachi so he'd have time to use Kirin unhindered, so a Kawarimi wouldn't had done the job, and it doesn't seem Sasuke knows Shadow Clone. Jiraiya on the other hand doesn't need to trick Itachi, just survive.

itachi killed oro in such a short time.he also handled sasuke.if it wasnt for the injury bfore the battle,he could have killed sasuke too.
itachi uses such a short time to kill one of the sannin which is almost the same level as jiraiya.then how much time do u really think itachi need to eliminate jiraiya?

Itachi takes this again. I like how you posted Odlam's post. It's quite important IMO.

It's quite bullshit. Just because they don't refer to Jiraiya by name means nothing, and the only thing that's similar between Orochimaru and Jiraiya is that they are both Kage-level and they're both one of the Sannin. Otherwise they are completely different and how well Itachi did against one does not reflect how well he'd do against another. Kisame also refers to himself as one of the Seven Swordsmen and Itachi as one of the Uchiha. By Odlam's logic, that means Jiraiya WOULD beat them. Do you know why? Because Jiraiya would kick Zabuza's and Fugaku's asses. And guess what? By Odlam's logic, here's more evidence that Jiraiya would beat Itachi: Kisame said that he's no match for Jiraiya, and he's Kage-level and one of the Akatsuki... just like Itachi.

[Agony]

Um, his eyesight is still quite fucked from previous uses.



Like Itachi knows shit about HM.



W/o knowing that Itachi will also have a disadvantage.



As I recall you failed to tell me how Itachi will predict the jutsu Jiraiya will use.



Read above comment.



I think they'd kill each other, and I also think you seriously underrate Jiraiya.



It would be useless if Itachi could keep jumping. But that would leaf him wide open for an attack.

true enough tat itachi doesnt know about HM but yata's mirror mode is going to save him.dont give me tat shit barrier mode is going to protect jiraiya.barrier mode is useless against susanoo.


now tat itachi has a way to avoid HM's every technique,HM is useless.so there's no goddamn disadavantage for itachi.:amuse

sharingan can see wad jutsu J-man is going to use just by looking at J-man's hand seal.


i dont think i need to read the comments above.i dont understimate jiraiya.his a strong ninja.but he will still lose to a MS or EMS user.itachi doesnt need to jump.while detecting J-man's handseal,itachi will straight away uses amaterasu to burn J-man.amaterasu attack in an instant.so there's no way to avoid it.J-man dont even know when will it burn or when will it come out.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

nah man..u're understimating amaterasu.

Much like your underestimating Jiraiya.

amaterasu is unavoidable.sasuke escape because he has a kawarimi tat only oro has.itachi said only oro has tat kawarimi.nobody has it.only oro has.it is a kawarimi tat is very difficult ot detect.its not a normal kawarimi.tat's the reason it coz a lot chakra.a normal kawarimi doesnt coz so much chakra.

j-man's kawarimi can be detected easily by itachi.itachi will know which one is the real J-man.no one ever avoid amaterasu.no one.

I assume Pein's kawarimi is easily detectable as well?

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

true enough tat itachi doesnt know about HM but yata's mirror mode is going to save him.dont give me tat shit barrier mode is going to protect jiraiya.barrier mode is useless against susanoo.

Yata's mirror won't protect vs the toad mouth or the swamp, Jiraiya can go into the 2nd barrier and wait for Itachi to run out of chakra, yes Susano'o takes chakra, what a shock:amazed

now tat itachi has a way to avoid HM's every technique,HM is useless.so there's no goddamn disadavantage for itachi.:amuse

In your imagination yes.

sharingan can see wad jutsu J-man is going to use just by looking at J-man's hand seal.

Prove it.

i dont think i need to read the comments above.i dont understimate jiraiya.

Haha

his a strong ninja.but he will still lose to a MS or EMS user.itachi doesnt need to jump.

I know because Itachi can't sink right:laugh

while detecting J-man's handseal,itachi will straight away uses amaterasu to burn J-man.amaterasu attack in an instant.so there's no way to avoid it.J-man dont even know when will it burn or when will it come out.

And you said do don't underestimate Jiraiya:laugh

[MasterChick]

I'm a Jiraiyatard, but I have to vote for Itachi....:ano

Itachi is going to have a hard time with Jiraiya, but in the end I really think Itachi is gonna win this one....Jiraiya is great ninja and he's up there with the other Godly ninjas up there, but I think Itachi can defeat him.

[Dragoon]

Itachi takes this

[SM00TH38]

It's quite bullshit. Just because they don't refer to Jiraiya by name means nothing, and the only thing that's similar between Orochimaru and Jiraiya is that they are both Kage-level and they're both one of the Sannin. Otherwise they are completely different and how well Itachi did against one does not reflect how well he'd do against another. Kisame also refers to himself as one of the Seven Swordsmen and Itachi as one of the Uchiha. By Odlam's logic, that means Jiraiya WOULD beat them. Do you know why? Because Jiraiya would kick Zabuza's and Fugaku's asses. And guess what? By Odlam's logic, here's more evidence that Jiraiya would beat Itachi: Kisame said that he's no match for Jiraiya, and he's Kage-level and one of the Akatsuki... just like Itachi.



You're overestimating Amaterasu's ability to burn. If it were as powerful as you believe it is, Tobi would had been missing his upper body the moment Sasuke inadvertently used it, but that isn't what happened. If Amaterasu were that powerful, Sasuke would had only been a head when he got hit by it... but as shown, Amaterasu can't even burn a forest in less than an hour. And if Itachi wanted Sasuke alive, he wouldn't had used such lethal force. He was obviously fighting for real. To test Sasuke? Perhaps, but it was real.

It's not crap, there's a 50/50 chance that Jiraiya could escape it, but it's debatable if he'd get caught in it thanks to his Detection Barrier.

If Sasuke can break free with sheer hatred and Jiraiya can resurrect himself with will-power, then it's possible. I don't know how possible, but it's not impossible.

It is avoidable.



I'm not making anything up, I made a summary of what happened. Heh, Itachi also said that Sasuke avoided it. Itachi obviously could not.

Sasuke left his skin behind for Amaterasu to burn, it's the same principle with a Kawarimi or Shadow Clone. And saying the Orochi Kawarimi is the only way to escape it is a bad assumption.

Amaterasu stops when it hits something, there's nothing to suggest otherwise. And Sasuke needed to trick Itachi so he could prepare Kirin unhindered, Jiraiya just needs to survive. What do you mean the flames will be on you if you Substitute? Amaterasu is supposed to burn whatever it hits until it's gone, so by that definition, Amaterasu should had stayed on Sasuke after he molted his skin... but it didn't.

Jiraiya hasnt shown the ability to create another body, so his chances to avoid amatersu is very slim. shadow clones and other body switchs wouldnt work cause the sharingan can see the charka flow and would burn through the kawirmi and go after its target. sasuke was able to run from amatersu for 1) itachi stop'd the first time after his katon was failing. 2) sasuke had already taken off before itachi open'd back up his eye, thus making itachi chase him with his eyes inwhich sasuke still got hit. Oro kawirim creates a whole new body, whatever damage was done to your previous body is null and void, so if jiraiya his hit with amatersu how can he stop himself from turning to ash ? can jiraiya avoid getting hit who knows but if he does get hit the fights over, same thing if jiraiya was to get hit with tsukuyomi fights over.

itachi has too many trumps that are very fast, and has little to no prep time. where as jiraiya has more justu ( that we have seen ), and his best moves HM and frog song require long prep time. it took jiraiya close to a whole chapter to get off HM

[Agony]

Sasuke left his skin behind for Amaterasu to burn, it's the same principle as Kawarimi or Shadow Clone. Sasuke also wanted to trick Itachi so he'd have time to use Kirin unhindered, so a Kawarimi wouldn't had done the job, and it doesn't seem Sasuke knows Shadow Clone. Jiraiya on the other hand doesn't need to trick Itachi, just survive.





It's quite bullshit. Just because they don't refer to Jiraiya by name means nothing, and the only thing that's similar between Orochimaru and Jiraiya is that they are both Kage-level and they're both one of the Sannin. Otherwise they are completely different and how well Itachi did against one does not reflect how well he'd do against another. Kisame also refers to himself as one of the Seven Swordsmen and Itachi as one of the Uchiha. By Odlam's logic, that means Jiraiya WOULD beat them. Do you know why? Because Jiraiya would kick Zabuza's and Fugaku's asses. And guess what? By Odlam's logic, here's more evidence that Jiraiya would beat Itachi: Kisame said that he's no match for Jiraiya, and he's Kage-level and one of the Akatsuki... just like Itachi.

Jman cant even avoid amaterasu,then how the hell does he survive??its been said tat sharingan know which one is kage bunshin or kawarimi its just because oro's kawarimi is different.its more special.j-man's kawarimi is another level which is not as high level as oro's special kawarimi.oro's kawarimi coz a lot of chakra.a normal kawarimi doesnt coz much chakra.

kisame knows nothing about itachi and only knows shit about susanoo and amaterasu.

[sworder]

I'm not the one trying to have it both ways.

I don't doubt that Itachi cannot be hurt while in Susanoo. Jiraiya doesn't need to kill him to defeat him.

Swamp of the underworld and frog song will immobilize until Susanoo runs out.

Now THAT is gross overestimation of Jiraiya's jutsus. That swamp is the most overrated thing is this battledome. People think he can create it instantly and no one can avoid it at any cost, even though Jiraiya needed to distract Pain so he couldn't see the swamp when he made it.

The frog song is useless against sharingan. Like I stated before, Sasuke broke out of Orochimaru's real dimension that even allows him to take over bodies. How is a fake and illusory dimension stopping them?

Tobi was not in a battle situation. He was completely surprised and it still took two and a half pages to burn him.

So it takes a while to burn... but does Jiraiya have any real ability that allows him to remove Amaterasu from him? Other than spacetime ninjutsu and creating a new body...

Nonsense. Amaterasu has never, and let me be clear here, never eradicated anything in an instant fashion.(if that is what you are attempting to infer) Itachi had enough time to hold back the flames against Sasuke.

No, that wasn't my point. The first Amaterasu was huge and would completely surround all of Sasuke's body, so unless Itachi stopped it, Sasuke wouldn't be able to escape. If he used the rebirth jutsu, the body would come out with flames on it.

Which goes back to my point of replacing behind something that obscures Itachi's vision effectively countering amaterasu.

If he knows it's coming, sure. But he doesn't. Itachi makes a few handsigns and flames instantly appear right in front of Jiraiya. He won't have the privilege of seeing how it works and knowing when it's coming, like Sasuke did.

Tsukiyomi hasn't even killed anybody. It simply breaks their spirit. Kakashi was still good to chat afterwards for a while.

Kisame was surprised Kakashi survived, so it just hasn't killed anyone on screen. Besides, in that condition, you can't beat Itachi.

So you accept that frog song would win for Jiraiya?

Not really, sharingan is the perfect anti-genjutsu weapon... which is just what the song is, an illusion. At best, it'd slow down Itachi a bit, just like Itachi's genjutsu would slow down Jiraiya.

I would say it is possible considering Jiraiya had the willpower to will himself back from the dead.

Fair point, I'll agree with you here.

The irony.

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509849&postcount=98

If you don't believe every statement to be absolute why do you keep chirping about everything said on Itachi?

I could go through the old thread and find all the double standardy nonsense you posted, but I think you get the point.

Actually, I did post in the other thread the reasons why Itachi would win by what people stated in the manga, but I got called for it because they thought Jiraiya would still avoid everything despite what the manga stated... so I simply did the same thing.

Run away?

Replace before it hits?

Obscure Itachi's vision.

Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya and running away didn't help him.

Substitution isn't the be-all-end-all of jutsus, and it works very little against high level jutsus. Unless you're practically gonna go on every topic and say anyone can substitute out of every attack, I doubt it'll help him.

Jiraiya can obscure Itachi's vision, but smoke bombs last a few seconds. But he doesn't know when Amaterasu is coming, nor how does it work, or how does Itachi casts the jutsu. The least he could expect is that it suddenly appears right on top of you.

[UltimateDeadpool]

true enough tat itachi doesnt know about HM but yata's mirror mode is going to save him.dont give me tat shit barrier mode is going to protect jiraiya.barrier mode is useless against susanoo.

now tat itachi has a way to avoid HM's every technique,HM is useless.so there's no goddamn disadavantage for itachi.:amuse

sharingan can see wad jutsu J-man is going to use just by looking at J-man's hand seal.

i dont think i need to read the comments above.i dont understimate jiraiya.his a strong ninja.but he will still lose to a MS or EMS user.itachi doesnt need to jump.while detecting J-man's handseal,itachi will straight away uses amaterasu to burn J-man.amaterasu attack in an instant.so there's no way to avoid it.J-man dont even know when will it burn or when will it come out.

Yata's mirror can't protect him from every direction, and Susanoo has a dangerous time-limit.

Itachi may be able to see the hand seals, but unless he knows the techniques, he won't know what they do. Remember the bell test? Sasuke and Sakura thought Kakashi was making a seal to use a fire technique to burn Naruto, but really it was a super-powerful ass poke.

Amaterasu requires hand seals and takes a few moments to prepare, and Sasuke didn't know those things about Amaterasu either but that didn't stop him from avoiding it. Also, I think a bleeding eye is a good warning.

Jman cant even avoid amaterasu,then how the hell does he survive??its been said tat sharingan know which one is kage bunshin or kawarimi its just because oro's kawarimi is different.its more special.j-man's kawarimi is another level which is not as high level as oro's special kawarimi.oro's kawarimi coz a lot of chakra.a normal kawarimi doesnt coz much chakra.

Yet a Shadow Clone has tricked a Sharingan user how many times now? But as I said, Jiraiya doesn't have to trick Itachi to stall for time, he just has to avoid getting burned.

[Grimmjowsensei]

You're overestimating Amaterasu's ability to burn. If it were as powerful as you believe it is, Tobi would had been missing his upper body the moment Sasuke inadvertently used it, but that isn't what happened. If Amaterasu were that powerful, Sasuke would had only been a head when he got hit by it... but as shown, Amaterasu can't even burn a forest in less than an hour. And if Itachi wanted Sasuke alive, he wouldn't had used such lethal force. He was obviously fighting for real. To test Sasuke? Perhaps, but it was real.

Once again, you don't take the latest chapter into consideration. Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke with Amaterasu. He can control the intensity of the flames. When he was countering Sasuke's fire elemental technique, he released a huge amount of it, then closed his eye. So that Sasuke would not get vaporised. Then he started again, and he was aiming for Sasuke's wing only, because he wanted Sasuke to get rid of cursed seal.

It's not crap, there's a 50/50 chance that Jiraiya could escape it, but it's debatable if he'd get caught in it thanks to his Detection Barrier.

I have to disagree with this statement. As far as we know, only someone with equal/higher level of Sharingan can stand against Tsukiyomi. Once Jiraiya gets caught, its over for him. No double standarts here, neither frog song or Tsukiyomi can be dispelled due to manga canon statements.

If Sasuke can break free with sheer hatred and Jiraiya can resurrect himself with will-power, then it's possible. I don't know how possible, but it's not impossible.

Answer is above. You should drop this, because you can't provide any manga scans.

[SM00TH38]

lol so do you think that a heathy itachi eyes are going to bleed by using amatersu? i do believe the first time ( we seen ) itachi use it, has eyes wasnt bleeding. and also his physical condition was a lot worse during his fight with sasuke. so i dont think there would be any eye bleeding going on in this fight.

[Agony]

Yata's mirror won't protect vs the toad mouth or the swamp, Jiraiya can go into the 2nd barrier and wait for Itachi to run out of chakra, yes Susano'o takes chakra, what a shock:amazed



In your imagination yes.



Prove it.



Haha



I know because Itachi can't sink right:laugh



And you said do don't underestimate Jiraiya:laugh

itachi is not an idiot.he can hide.he also can see where jman is because sharingan can see the colour of chakra.

in your imagination maybe jman wins but in reality itachi wins.look at the poll. want proof sharingan can see hand seal??go read the manga when kakashi fought kakuzu n when deidara fought against sasuke.n its true j-man cannot avoid amaterasu.its been proved so many times.it just tat u cant accept it.tat is not understimating,tats fact my fren.

[xFoxNarutox]

Once again, you don't take the latest chapter into consideration. Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke with Amaterasu. He can control the intensity of the flames. When he was countering Sasuke's fire elemental technique, he released a huge amount of it, then closed his eye. So that Sasuke would not get vaporised. Then he started again, and he was aiming for Sasuke's wing only, because he wanted Sasuke to get rid of cursed seal.
I wouldn't say that he was aiming directly at Sasuke's cursed seal wing with Amaterasu. It appeared that he was aiming forSasuke's entire body excluding the head as the eyes are there. He may have known that Sasuke would use the wings to protect himself, but it appeared as if he was just aiming for Sasuke's lower body.

Answer is above. You should drop this, because you can't provide any manga scans.
There is no evidence for either point as there are no manga scans for each side. Sasuke's will of hatred in combination with the Sharingan appears to have gotten free of Tsuikyomi.

[UltimateDeadpool]

Now THAT is gross overestimation of Jiraiya's jutsus. That swamp is the most overrated thing is this battledome. People think he can create it instantly and no one can avoid it at any cost, even though Jiraiya needed to distract Pain so he couldn't see the swamp when he made it.

The frog song is useless against sharingan. Like I stated before, Sasuke broke out of Orochimaru's real dimension that even allows him to take over bodies. How is a fake and illusory dimension stopping them?

So it takes a while to burn... but does Jiraiya have any real ability that allows him to remove Amaterasu from him? Other than spacetime ninjutsu and creating a new body...

No, that wasn't my point. The first Amaterasu was huge and would completely surround all of Sasuke's body, so unless Itachi stopped it, Sasuke wouldn't be able to escape. If he used the rebirth jutsu, the body would come out with flames on it.

If he knows it's coming, sure. But he doesn't. Itachi makes a few handsigns and flames instantly appear right in front of Jiraiya. He won't have the privilege of seeing how it works and knowing when it's coming, like Sasuke did.

Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya and running away didn't help him.

Substitution isn't the be-all-end-all of jutsus, and it works very little against high level jutsus. Unless you're practically gonna go on every topic and say anyone can substitute out of every attack, I doubt it'll help him.



Just like you guys seem to think Amaterasu can be created instantly and can't be avoided at any cost.

Orochimaru's "dimension" is a genjutsu too, and it failed for the same reason Kurenai's genjutsu failed against Itachi, Sasuke made eye contact and reversed the genjutsu. Itachi can't make eye contact with both Ma and Pa at the same time, if they're even in Itachi's line of sight.

Jiraiya has the Fire Suppressor Seal which he used to get rid of Amaterasu the first time we saw it.

Amaterasu doesn't instantly appear, it takes a few moments to charge.

Show me proof that Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya.

Substitution is the most hax jutsu in the series, but it does require timing.

lol so do you think that a heathy itachi eyes are going to bleed by using amatersu? i do believe the first time ( we seen ) itachi use it, has eyes wasnt bleeding. and also his physical condition was a lot worse during his fight with sasuke. so i dont think there would be any eye bleeding going on in this fight.

That is actually a head scratcher since Sasuke has perfectly healthy eyes and his bleed when he accidentally used Amaterasu.

[Agony]

Yata's mirror can't protect him from every direction, and Susanoo has a dangerous time-limit.

Itachi may be able to see the hand seals, but unless he knows the techniques, he won't know what they do. Remember the bell test? Sasuke and Sakura thought Kakashi was making a seal to use a fire technique to burn Naruto, but really it was a super-powerful ass poke.

Amaterasu requires hand seals and takes a few moments to prepare, and Sasuke didn't know those things about Amaterasu either but that didn't stop him from avoiding it. Also, I think a bleeding eye is a good warning.



Yet a Shadow Clone has tricked a Sharingan user how many times now? But as I said, Jiraiya doesn't have to trick Itachi to stall for time, he just has to avoid getting burned.

he doesnt need to use susanoo when jman attacks him.jman doesnt know where itachi is but itachi does know where jman is.becuase of sharingan,itachi can see the colour of chakra.even though itachi doesnt know wad kind of jutsu jman is going to use,at least itachi knows wad kind of element jutsu jman is going to use.so itachi will figure it out how to solve it.

a shadow clone trick a sharingan user once just because its a 30%clone.sasuke knows everything about amaterasu.itachi;s and seals are too fast tat even a sharingan user cant even see his handseals.which means handseal is not even a problem for itachi.

amaterasu attack in an instant.jman cant avoid it.jman doesnt know if itachi uses amaterasu his eyes will bleed.

[UltimateDeadpool]

Once again, you don't take the latest chapter into consideration. Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke with Amaterasu. He can control the intensity of the flames. When he was countering Sasuke's fire elemental technique, he released a huge amount of it, then closed his eye. So that Sasuke would not get vaporised. Then he started again, and he was aiming for Sasuke's wing only, because he wanted Sasuke to get rid of cursed seal.

I have to disagree with this statement. As far as we know, only someone with equal/higher level of Sharingan can stand against Tsukiyomi. Once Jiraiya gets caught, its over for him. No double standarts here, neither frog song or Tsukiyomi can be dispelled due to manga canon statements.

Where does it say that he can control the intensity of the flames? And actually, Amaterasu started off as a spark but expanded to engulf the fireball. It looks to me like Itachi was resting his eye after using Amaterasu to stop from getting blasted by Sasuke Grand Fireball. And because it caught Sasuke's wing which was lagging behind his body doesn't mean that's what Itachi was aiming for, especially since the fire spread all across Sasuke's back and legs; Itachi only stopped Amaterasu from going past the neck to protect Sasuke's eyes.

Sasuke's normal Sharingan is equal to or higher than MS?

[ShinAkuma]

Now THAT is gross overestimation of Jiraiya's jutsus. That swamp is the most overrated thing is this battledome. People think he can create it instantly and no one can avoid it at any cost, even though Jiraiya needed to distract Pain so he couldn't see the swamp when he made it.

You think Itachi can free himself from the swamp?

The frog song is useless against sharingan.

Fanboy much?

Like I stated before, Sasuke broke out of Orochimaru's real dimension that even allows him to take over bodies. How is a fake and illusory dimension stopping them?

Oro's dimension was described as inescapable? A certain win?

So it takes a while to burn... but does Jiraiya have any real ability that allows him to remove Amaterasu from him? Other than spacetime ninjutsu and creating a new body...

He can fire suppress it. Or he could simply avoid it all together through bunshins/summons/silhouette mirage.

Who can say for certain besides Kishi? The point is there are options.

No, that wasn't my point. The first Amaterasu was huge and would completely surround all of Sasuke's body, so unless Itachi stopped it, Sasuke wouldn't be able to escape. If he used the rebirth jutsu, the body would come out with flames on it.

Once again, demonstrated as not the case.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/09/

Sasuke is engulfed in flames over most of his body when he replaces.

You assumption the flames should transfer to his new body is invalid and shown as false.

If he knows it's coming, sure. But he doesn't. Itachi makes a few handsigns and flames instantly appear right in front of Jiraiya.

Except they won't instantly appear. Both times we have seen amaterasu there has been a start up time associated with the jutsu.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/15/

Not to mention Itachi started those handseals for amaterasu at the beginning of that chapeter.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/01/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/02/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

Plus there is the telltale eye bleeding.

Kisame was surprised Kakashi survived, so it just hasn't killed anyone on screen.

Or Kisame was lead to believe the jutsu killed.

Not really, sharingan is the perfect anti-genjutsu weapon... which is just what the song is, an illusion. At best, it'd slow down Itachi a bit, just like Itachi's genjutsu would slow down Jiraiya.

Frog song is a certain win, implying it cannot be dispelled. The effects of the jutsu - paralyzing you nerves and mind - would also suggest it cannot be dispelled.

There is zero evidence to suggest Itachi could dispel it. In fact the opposite is likely.

Fair point, I'll agree with you here.

Finally.

Actually, I did post in the other thread the reasons why Itachi would win by what people stated in the manga, but I got called for it because they thought Jiraiya would still avoid everything despite what the manga stated... so I simply did the same thing.

Being ridiculous does nothing for your credibility in a debate.

I believe what Itachi said - they would both die or be severely injured.

Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya and running away didn't help him.

Actually Sasuke can shunshin to increase his speed, but his standard run is nothing special.

And it did help him, he was able to avoid the jutsu for an appreciable amount of time. Time enough to do something to save yourself.

Substitution isn't the be-all-end-all of jutsus,

Actually it is, Kishi must have realized how broken they are and stopped using them too much.

and it works very little against high level jutsus. Unless you're practically gonna go on every topic and say anyone can substitute out of every attack, I doubt it'll help him.

Except the point here is we have seen a substitution work against amterasu. So theoretically one could use a substitution in such a scenario, which is the point.

Jiraiya can obscure Itachi's vision, but smoke bombs last a few seconds. But he doesn't know when Amaterasu is coming, nor how does it work, or how does Itachi casts the jutsu. The least he could expect is that it suddenly appears right on top of you.

Jiraiya has experience with amaterasu at this point. It isn't hard to determine where the jutsu would come from. Either his mouth or his eyes, since it's a katon and he is a sharingan user.

Once you notice his eyes bleeding or forming of handseals I'm sure Jiraiya will attempt some kind of defence.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Where does it say that he can control the intensity of the flames? And actually, Amaterasu started off as a spark but expanded to engulf the fireball. It looks to me like Itachi was resting his eye after using Amaterasu to stop from getting blasted by Sasuke Grand Fireball. And because it caught Sasuke's wing which was lagging behind his body doesn't mean that's what Itachi was aiming for, especially since the fire spread all across Sasuke's back and legs; Itachi only stopped Amaterasu from going past the neck to protect Sasuke's eyes.

Well we have different opinions don't we...

Sasuke's normal Sharingan is equal to or higher than MS?

apparently it is, based on what Zetsu says.


Damn I changed my mind Itachi can/will dispell Frog song.
they only said, " we will win", no direct statement that it is impossible to dispell it. (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509774&postcount=97)

We have seen Itachi can see through genjutsu, not only dispell but also counter it. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/14/)
I think Itachi defintely takes this one. Becase for me frog song was the determining factor on Jmans behalf.

[UltimateDeadpool]

he doesnt need to use susanoo when jman attacks him.jman doesnt know where itachi is but itachi does know where jman is.becuase of sharingan,itachi can see the colour of chakra.even though itachi doesnt know wad kind of jutsu jman is going to use,at least itachi knows wad kind of element jutsu jman is going to use.so itachi will figure it out how to solve it.

a shadow clone trick a sharingan user once just because its a 30%clone.sasuke knows everything about amaterasu.itachi;s and seals are too fast tat even a sharingan user cant even see his handseals.which means handseal is not even a problem for itachi.

amaterasu attack in an instant.jman cant avoid it.jman doesnt know if itachi uses amaterasu his eyes will bleed.

The Sharingan can't see through walls.

You think that a clone with 30% of Itachi's chakra didn't have the Sharingan's full abilities? lol. And so what if Itachi can see Jiraiya's handseals? Kakashi's fighting style revolves around anticipating the opponent's jutsus, Itachi has never displayed that tactic.

Technically, any attack is instant. However, Itachi does have to charge Amaterasu.

We have seen Itachi can see through genjutsu, not only dispell but also counter it. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/14/)
I think Itachi defintely takes this one. Becase for me frog song was the determining factor on Jmans behalf.

Itachi had to make eye contact to reverse Kurenai's genjutsu. The Frog Song paralyzes the opponent's brain and body.

[SM00TH38]

Just like you guys seem to think Amaterasu can be created instantly and can't be avoided at any cost.

amaterasu has very little prep time. it doesnt take long to charge at all ppl forget that itachi was showing signs of fatigue after tsukuyomi failed

Orochimaru's "dimension" is a genjutsu too, and it failed for the same reason Kurenai's genjutsu failed against Itachi, Sasuke made eye contact and reversed the genjutsu. Itachi can't make eye contact with both Ma and Pa at the same time, if they're even in Itachi's line of sight.

i agree if jiraiya is in HM it would be hard to place him in a genjustu

Jiraiya has the Fire Suppressor Seal which he used to get rid of Amaterasu the first time we saw it.

the flame jiraiya sealed was not in motion thus allowing jiraiya to pull out a scroll and seal the flame, lets see him try that in a middle of a real fight with fire coming straight at him

Amaterasu doesn't instantly appear, it takes a few moments to charge.

it does appear rather quickly


Show me proof that Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya.

stuff like comparing speed in manga is hard to prove for anyone case. all you can go by is what they have done in manga. it all looks the same on paper anyways. but sasuke has show more speed feats. then jiraiya


Substitution is the most hax jutsu in the series, but it does require timing.

Oro rebirth is on a differant level then any other substitution so far

[ShinAkuma]

Damn I changed my mind Itachi can/will dispell Frog song.
they only said, " we will win", no direct statement that it is impossible to dispell it. (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=15509774&postcount=97)

Dude, how would it be a certain win if somebody could dispel it?

Add to that Itachi countered a b-rank genjutsu from Kurenai. Should we now accept examples of countering regular katons as valid to counter amaterasu?

[sworder]

This is going nowhere. You believe Susanoo can be stopped by a swamp, Amaterasu can be easily substituted out off and that Jiraya can tank Tsukuyomi and fight afterwards, but refuse to give Itachi any credit saying he can't possibly avoid the swamp, that the frog song is instant win against him, and he avoids everything Itachi has even though Jiraiya sucks at genjutsu (which is Itachi's specialty).

How am I the fanboy? You may say you think they both injure each other, but you're not debating that way.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Itachi had to make eye contact to reverse Kurenai's genjutsu. The Frog Song paralyzes the opponent's brain and body.

Pain has the ability to talk then, while his brain is freezed.


Dude, how would it be a certain win if somebody could dispel it?

Add to that Itachi countered a b-rank genjutsu from Kurenai. Should we now accept examples of countering regular katons as valid to counter amaterasu?


Lol @ certain win. Maybe it hasn't been used on someone who could dispell it before ? not against a master of genjutsu perhaps ? Saying "I am going to win" and actually winning are two different concepts.

I am not saying they are ont the same level, but there is an indication that Itachi is able to see through genjutsu and counter it, he is a genjutsu master after all.

[Agony]

The Sharingan can't see through walls.

You think that a clone with 30% of Itachi's chakra didn't have the Sharingan's full abilities? lol. And so what if Itachi can see Jiraiya's handseals? Kakashi's fighting style revolves around anticipating the opponent's jutsus, Itachi has never displayed that tactic.

Technically, any attack is instant. However, Itachi does have to charge Amaterasu.



Itachi had to make eye contact to reverse Kurenai's genjutsu. The Frog Song paralyzes the opponent's brain and body.

when did it stated sharingan cant see through walls??30% itachi cannot overuse sharingan.just like zetsu stated'did he overused the sharingan?'which means tat sharingan has something to do with the real body and the user's chakra.

u mean kakashi?then in the end wad happen to him?he went to bed for weeks after fighting itachi.

nope.he doesnt need tat.while itachi and sasuke using genjutsu to each other,they dispel it easily.they dont need to look at each others eyes.when it comes to jiraiya vs itachi,itachi doesnt need to reverse the frog song.he just have to dispel it and uses the sharingan to see where jiraiya is.

sharingan genjutsu>normal genjutsu.
Tsukiyomi>sharingan genjutsu and normal genjutsu.

[SM00TH38]

amaterasu is faster then you guys are giving it credit for...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/

closes eye

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/06/

hole in the wall of flesh

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/

no eye bleeding

remember itachi is at full heath in this thread, stop with the eye bleeding and prep time.

[UltimateDeadpool]

amaterasu has very little prep time. it doesnt take long to charge at all ppl forget that itachi was showing signs of fatigue after tsukuyomi failed

the flame jiraiya sealed was not in motion thus allowing jiraiya to pull out a scroll and seal the flame, lets see him try that in a middle of a real fight with fire coming straight at him

stuff like comparing speed in manga is hard to prove for anyone case. all you can go by is what they have done in manga. it all looks the same on paper anyways. but sasuke has show more speed feats. then jiraiya

Oro rebirth is on a differant level then any other substitution so far

But prep time none the less. And people also forget that each MS technique takes a heavy toll on Itachi. If one were to fail, his chances of using another greatly decreases.

If Jiraiya anticipated this fight then he could have a few already prepared. However, if Jiraiya could keep ahead of Amaterasu long enough, if only to complete the seal before it hits him, he could seal Amaterasu away with mild burns.

Very true, speed is hard to compare on paper. Sasuke's greatest speed feats had been his Body Flickers, which are not his regular speed... and Deidara avoided his Body Flicker. Sasuke also used CS2 every time he tried to attack Deidara head-on. However, Sasuke never once used the Curse Seal in either taijutsu battle with Itachi.
Sasuke also got hit by every one of 1-Tailed Naruto's attacks, but Orochimaru dodged most of 4-Tailed Naruto's attacks... without having a Sharingan or Curse Seal. Jiraiya, while drugged, showed that he can keep up with a healthy (albeit handless) Orochimaru.

It's ability to restore one's body after being hurt and phenomenal, however it's actual use is similar to a Kawarimi... which is probably where it gets it's name. Instead of using an object like a log to take the damage in your place, you leave your skin.

amaterasu is faster then you guys are giving it credit for...

remember itachi is at full heath in this thread, stop with the eye bleeding and prep time.

Sasuke was full-health and his eye bled. Infact, it also had the throbbing veins Itachi's MS techniques had after the time-skip.

And Amaterasu does need prep time, even if he did use another MS technique before hand.

[ShinAkuma]

This is going nowhere. You believe Susanoo can be stopped by a swamp,

No, I am saying Itachi can be immobilized. That won't affect sasanoo, but it will keep Itachi from moving.

Amaterasu can be easily substituted out off

Who said it would be easy. In a fight of this level nothing will come easy.

and that Jiraya can tank Tsukuyomi and fight afterwards,

It's not like Jiraiya has to most incredible feat of willpower in the entire series or anything.

but refuse to give Itachi any credit saying he can't possibly avoid the swamp,

It would be interesting if you could point out where I said swamp of the underworld would be impossible to avoid.

that the frog song is instant win against him,

Frog song is the only jutsu thus far said to be a certain win.

It doesn't matter that you don't like it.

and he avoids everything Itachi has even though Jiraiya sucks at genjutsu (which is Itachi's specialty).

Jiraiya sucks at using genjutsu.

Accuracy is vital.

How am I the fanboy?

Maybe you're not. It is possible you simply don't read what is in the manga or what is being typed.

You may say you think they both injure each other, but you're not debating that way.

I'm debating the possibilities and theoretical counters, with logic and accuracy for what has been shown in the manga I might add.

If people won't give Jiraiya credit then I must point out what it is possible from his arsenal of moves.

There is no shortage of misinformed Itachi fanboys saying ridiculous stuff like frog song get dispelled. So if it seems I am debating pro Jiraiya it is because there is so much anti-Jiraiya going on here.

[ShinAkuma]

Lol @ certain win. Maybe it hasn't been used on someone who could dispell it before ? not against a master of genjutsu perhaps ? Saying "I am going to win" and actually winning are two different concepts.

I am not saying they are ont the same level, but there is an indication that Itachi is able to see through genjutsu and counter it, he is a genjutsu master after all.

You are beyond reason. It is the only jutsu in the series said to be a certain win, but someway, somehow you come to the conclusion that Itachi would dispell or counter it, partially based on countering Kurenai's b-rank genjutsu.

LOL

amaterasu is faster then you guys are giving it credit for...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/

closes eye

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/06/

hole in the wall of flesh

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/

no eye bleeding

The panels of the actual execution and the aftermath are not shown. Logically they would progress the same as what we have seen from Itachi and Sasuke.

[UltimateDeadpool]

when did it stated sharingan cant see through walls??30% itachi cannot overuse sharingan.just like zetsu stated'did he overused the sharingan?'which means tat sharingan has something to do with the real body and the user's chakra.

nope.he doesnt need tat.while itachi and sasuke using genjutsu to each other,they dispel it easily.they dont need to look at each others eyes.when it comes to jiraiya vs itachi,itachi doesnt need to reverse the frog song.he just have to dispel it and uses the sharingan to see where jiraiya is.

When did it state it can? The Sharingan can't see through fog nor could Itachi see through the ceiling when Sasuke was underneath. Since the copy only had 30% of his chakra he was limited in which techniques he could use... obviously he couldn't use MS, but the regular Sharingan's abilities were not effected.

They didn't despell each others' genjutsus, they just stopped.

This is going nowhere. You believe Susanoo can be stopped by a swamp, Amaterasu can be easily substituted out off and that Jiraya can tank Tsukuyomi and fight afterwards, but refuse to give Itachi any credit saying he can't possibly avoid the swamp, that the frog song is instant win against him, and he avoids everything Itachi has even though Jiraiya sucks at genjutsu (which is Itachi's specialty).

How am I the fanboy? You may say you think they both injure each other, but you're not debating that way.

You're so blind. You guys keep trying to convince us that MS is instant win, then you say we're not giving Itachi credit when we use counter arguments. How about giving Jiraiya credit? The fact is any technique has a fighting chance of failing, even MS.

[sworder]

No, I am saying Itachi can be immobilized. That won't affect sasanoo, but it will keep Itachi from moving.

So Itachi can't avoid it? Because if he does, Jiraiya is getting sealed in Susanoo's bottle.

It would be interesting if you could point out where I said swamp of the underworld would be impossible to avoid.

I'm asking you now.

Frog song is the only jutsu thus far said to be a certain win.

It doesn't matter that you don't like it.

False. Jiraiya thought his frog stomach was inescapable, but Itachi escaped from it. Oro did not believe at all that Sasuke was taking over his dimension and thought it was impossible, but Sasuke still did it. Just because the frogs think it's certain win doesn't make it so. Hell, like Grimmjowsensei said, the frogs NEVER said the genjutsu couldn't be dispelled, they just said it was certain win. And what happens? It wasn't a certain win, Pain still won the fight. What they think is not an absolute fact, that much is true.

Jiraiya sucks at using genjutsu.

Accuracy is vital.

Everyone that has been trapped in Itachi's genjutsu sucks at using genjutsu, and they still couldn't dispel it. Only sharingan has managed to do that, and even Deidara's specially trained eye got fooled anyways.

Maybe you're not. It is possible you simply don't read what is in the manga or what is being typed.

I do read, you just think whatever you state is always correct and can't possibly agree with one of another person's point.

I'm debating the possibilities and theoretical counters, with logic and accuracy for what has been shown in the manga I might add.

If people won't give Jiraiya credit then I must point out what it is possible from his arsenal of moves.

There is no shortage of misinformed Itachi fanboys saying ridiculous stuff like frog song get dispelled. So if it seems I am debating pro Jiraiya it is because there is so much anti-Jiraiya going on here.

The frog song can be dispelled. They just haven't met a sharingan user.

[SM00TH38]

But prep time none the less. And people also forget that each MS technique takes a heavy toll on Itachi. If one were to fail, his chances of using another greatly decreases.

If Jiraiya anticipated this fight then he could have a few already prepared. However, if Jiraiya could keep ahead of Amaterasu long enough, if only to complete the seal before it hits him, he could seal Amaterasu away with mild burns.

there was no days of prep stated in the OP, so this must be handled as a random encounter, i have a hard time seeing jiraiya pulling a seal scroll if itachi is staring him down with amaterasu. the flames jiraiya seals will only force itachi to use more flames. and if jiraiya is successfully sealing amaterasu off of his body wouldnt itachi just focus on burning the scroll next.

Very true, speed is hard to compare on paper. Sasuke's greatest speed feats had been his Body Flickers, which are not his regular speed... and Deidara avoided his Body Flicker. Sasuke also used CS2 every time he tried to attack Deidara head-on. However, Sasuke never once used the Curse Seal in either taijutsu battle with Itachi.
Sasuke also got hit by every one of 1-Tailed Naruto's attacks, but Orochimaru dodged most of 4-Tailed Naruto's attacks... without having a Sharingan or Curse Seal. Jiraiya, while drugged, showed that he can keep up with a healthy (albeit handless) Orochimaru.

sasuke only used the CS to get to into the air, and tank a couple bombs. when they both where on the ground, deidra couldnt keep up, tobi had to warn deidra that sasuke was behind him.
sasuke got hit by the kn1 naruto because he was unaware that the charka had a mind of its own, where as Oro was fighting the one entity ( the kyuubi ) vs sasuke fighting 2 ( naruto and the kyuubi ) also sasuke had zero exp. with a 3 tomoe sharingan.
Oro got hit plenty of times by the 4tails, and also notice how the 4 tails didnt move from it point of origin

It's ability to restore one's body after being hurt and phenomenal, however it's actual use is similar to a Kawarimi... which is probably where it gets it's name. Instead of using an object like a log to take the damage in your place, you leave your skin.

its use IMO, is to be able to tank hits without giving up postion. think about all the time Oro used it, he never lost ground and is able to keep up his assault.

[UltimateDeadpool]

False. Jiraiya thought his frog stomach was inescapable, but Itachi escaped from it. Oro did not believe at all that Sasuke was taking over his dimension and thought it was impossible, but Sasuke still did it. Just because the frogs think it's certain win doesn't make it so. Hell, like Grimmjowsensei said, the frogs NEVER said the genjutsu couldn't be dispelled, they just said it was certain win. And what happens? It wasn't a certain win, Pain still won the fight. What they think is not an absolute fact, that much is true.

Everyone that has been trapped in Itachi's genjutsu sucks at using genjutsu, and they still couldn't dispel it. Only sharingan has managed to do that, and even Deidara's specially trained eye got fooled anyways.

I do read, you just think whatever you state is always correct and can't possibly agree with one of another person's point.

The frog song can be dispelled. They just haven't met a sharingan user.

And Itachi thought Tsukiyomi was inescapable, but Sasuke escaped.

Who's everyone? Naruto and Deidara? The "fight" with Deidara wasn't even fair, he had Deidara in a genjutsu before stating their business.

Like you?

Hahahaha! What a crock.

[Teach]

Tbh, I find it hard to believe Jiraya pulls it. Early frog song would demolish Itachi but Jiraya will not get the chance if this is bloodlusted.

[sworder]

And Itachi thought Tsukiyomi was inescapable, but Sasuke escaped.

Who's everyone? Naruto and Deidara? The "fight" with Deidara wasn't even fair, he had Deidara in a genjutsu before stating their business.

Like you?

Hahahaha! What a crock.

Get your facts straight, Itachi said only an Uchiha could dispel Tsukuyomi. Everything is fair in the ninja world.

I don't really take you seriously, you think Jiraiya can beat Pain and everyone. Fanboyism at its best.

[SM00TH38]

You are beyond reason. It is the only jutsu in the series said to be a certain win, but someway, somehow you come to the conclusion that Itachi would dispell or counter it, partially based on countering Kurenai's b-rank genjutsu.

LOL



The panels of the actual execution and the aftermath are not shown. Logically they would progress the same as what we have seen from Itachi and Sasuke.

what other panels do you need? the fight with sasuke was years down the line. plus it was implied that itachi wasnt at 100%. and even then his eyes still have 3 years of deterioration. the Op clearly stats the this is a heathy itachi. a heathy itachi used 3 MS in one day with no eye bleeding.

[Teach]

Get your facts straight, Itachi said only an Uchiha could dispel Tsukuyomi. Everything is fair in the ninja world.

I don't really take you seriously, you think Jiraiya can beat Pain and everyone. Fanboyism at its best.

Well he can, even Pain said that. But that hasn't got anything to do with this.

[ShinAkuma]

So Itachi can't avoid it? Because if he does, Jiraiya is getting sealed in Susanoo's bottle.

Or Jiraiya avoids getting hit by that monster sword.


I'm asking you now.

Nothing is impossible to avoid.


False. Jiraiya thought his frog stomach was inescapable,

No he didn't. He said nobody has escaped before.

In the translation hosted online he simply said nobody could sneak away from him.

but Itachi escaped from it.

Except your information is false.

Oro did not believe at all that Sasuke was taking over his dimension and thought it was impossible, but Sasuke still did it.

Sure. Characters are often in disbelief when they see something unprecedented.

Just because the frogs think it's certain win doesn't make it so.

Until it is shown otherwise there is no reason to assume it isn't.

Unless everything said about Itachi is hogwash. But if you really believed your own rational you wouldn't be debating this.

Hell, like Grimmjowsensei said, the frogs NEVER said the genjutsu couldn't be dispelled,

"Certain win" is an all encompasing statement. It would include the impossibility of dispel because if it were possible to dispel it could not be considered a certain win.

If I said it is impossible to hurt me physically, one cannot say they could break my leg or guage my eyes, because my statement precludes such possiblities.

they just said it was certain win. And what happens? It wasn't a certain win, Pain still won the fight. What they think is not an absolute fact, that much is true.

Invalid. The frog song did what they said it would do. Just because Pein can resurrect does not mean frog song failed.

Everyone that has been trapped in Itachi's genjutsu sucks at using genjutsu, and they still couldn't dispel it. Only sharingan has managed to do that, and even Deidara's specially trained eye got fooled anyways.

However Jiraiya has been shown to know a technique on how to dispel genjutsu.

I do read, you just think whatever you state is always correct and can't possibly agree with one of another person's point.

Everything I have been stating to you is correct mostly because you are doing such a fine job of being incorrect.

It isn't my fault you are not reading the manga and this thread correctly. I however will correct you when you are incorrect.

The frog song can be dispelled. They just haven't met a sharingan user.

The manga disagrees.

You are entitled to believe anything you want. However when it goes against what has been said and shown it amounts to nothing more than fanboyism.

[UltimateDeadpool]

there was no days of prep stated in the OP, so this must be handled as a random encounter, i have a hard time seeing jiraiya pulling a seal scroll if itachi is staring him down with amaterasu. the flames jiraiya seals will only force itachi to use more flames. and if jiraiya is successfully sealing amaterasu off of his body wouldnt itachi just focus on burning the scroll next.

sasuke only used the CS to get to into the air, and tank a couple bombs. when they both where on the ground, deidra couldnt keep up, tobi had to warn deidra that sasuke was behind him.
sasuke got hit by the kn1 naruto because he was unaware that the charka had a mind of its own, where as Oro was fighting the one entity ( the kyuubi ) vs sasuke fighting 2 ( naruto and the kyuubi ) also sasuke had zero exp. with a 3 tomoe sharingan.
Oro got hit plenty of times by the 4tails, and also notice how the 4 tails didnt move from it point of origin

its use IMO, is to be able to tank hits without giving up postion. think about all the time Oro used it, he never lost ground and is able to keep up his assault.

Sasuke could run to spread the flames around, I see Jiraiya running to use a Shadow Clone, Kawarimi, or Fire Suppressor Seal. There's a question if Itachi can use more flames, and would it help if they were being pulled into a seal? Let him try to burn the scroll, that wastes one of his 4 MS's and weakens him.

Not know Sasuke was behind him wasn't really a speed feat, it was stealth. Dodging Sasuke's attack was a speed feat. And even when Sasuke used the SC2, he still couldn't hit Deidara.
Sasuke learned about the chakra the first time, why did he keep getting hit? Orochimaru didn't know about the chakra either, nor did he have a Sharingan or Curse Seal to give him any advantages. 1-Tailed Naruto was only using his chakra to fight.
Orochimaru got hit once unseen, and he got hit again when he blitzed 4-Tailed Naruto. Otherwise he dodged 4 times.

A Kawarimi allows the same. Remember the bell test? Kakashi tricked Naruto into punching himself, then set up a trap while Naruto was distracted. He also used a Kawarimi to trick Sasuke and kept moving without anyone knowing.

Get your facts straight, Itachi said only an Uchiha could dispel Tsukuyomi. Everything is fair in the ninja world.

I don't really take you seriously, you think Jiraiya can beat Pain and everyone. Fanboyism at its best.

Get your facts straight, he said only an Uchiha could beat him (mocking Kakashi's Sharingan) and said that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable.

Pein said he would had never been able to beat Jiraiya if he knew his secret.

[ShinAkuma]

what other panels do you need?

The panels that I pointed out were missing.

the fight with sasuke was years down the line. plus it was implied that itachi wasnt at 100%. and even then his eyes still have 3 years of deterioration. the Op clearly stats the this is a heathy itachi. a heathy itachi used 3 MS in one day with no eye bleeding.

We have never fully seen Itachi use amaterasu previous to the current chapters. So providing two panels where we don't see what happened isn't exactly proof.

Besides Sasukes eyes displayed the same effects, and he has zero eye deterioration.

[SM00TH38]

Sasuke could run to spread the flames around, I see Jiraiya running to use a Shadow Clone, Kawarimi, or Fire Suppressor Seal. There's a question if Itachi can use more flames, and would it help if they were being pulled into a seal? Let him try to burn the scroll, that wastes one of his 4 MS's and weakens him.

when sasuke was running around itachi didnt turn off amaterasu, itachi was trying to focus on sasuke thus leaving a trail of flames. if jiraiya tried any of the above amaterasu would burn through his Shadow clone, Kawarimi and the scroll. and after the scroll is burnt he would focus back at jiraiya. we dont know the upperlimits of how long itachi when heathy can keep amaterasu active.

Not know Sasuke was behind him wasn't really a speed feat, it was stealth. Dodging Sasuke's attack was a speed feat. And even when Sasuke used the SC2, he still couldn't hit Deidara.
Sasuke learned about the chakra the first time, why did he keep getting hit? Orochimaru didn't know about the chakra either, nor did he have a Sharingan or Curse Seal to give him any advantages. 1-Tailed Naruto was only using his chakra to fight.
Orochimaru got hit once unseen, and he got hit again when he blitzed 4-Tailed Naruto. Otherwise he dodged 4 times.

WHAT?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/13/
what did deidra dodge? sasuke attacked tobi 1st allowing deidra to jump to safety. tobi then alerted deidra that sasuke was behind him allowing diedra to throw the bomb in between them allow deidra to escape again. sasuke only used cs2 1) to tank deidra bombs because the ground was laced with landmines thanks to tobi. 2) to get into the air to attack deidra. sasuke out classes deidra in speed.
btw the 9tails didnt move

A Kawarimi allows the same. Remember the bell test? Kakashi tricked Naruto into punching himself, then set up a trap while Naruto was distracted. He also used a Kawarimi to trick Sasuke and kept moving without anyone knowing.

how is a regular kawarimi going to stop amaterasu


Get your facts straight, he said only an Uchiha could beat him (mocking Kakashi's Sharingan) and said that Tsukiyomi is unbreakable.

Pein said he would had never been able to beat Jiraiya if he knew his secret.

The panels that I pointed out were missing.



We have never fully seen Itachi use amaterasu previous to the current chapters. So providing two panels where we don't see what happened isn't exactly proof.

it is proof the panels show itachi charging amaterasu and then using it there is no eye bleeding. in the sasuke vs itachi fight we see blood coming from his eyes before he use amaterasu. there is no blood before he uses it in part one.

Besides Sasukes eyes displayed the same effects, and he has zero eye deterioration.

itachi tranfered "HIS" powers to sasuke. considering itachi phyiscal status of when he transfered his justu its not surprizing that the condition his eyes where in would also transfer. notice how its itachi MS thats in sasuke's eye not sasuke MS casting Itachi's justu

[Grimmjowsensei]

You are beyond reason. It is the only jutsu in the series said to be a certain win, but someway, somehow you come to the conclusion that Itachi would dispell or counter it, partially based on countering Kurenai's b-rank genjutsu.

LOL


BIG LOL


Says who ? you ?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/ http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/06/

Itachi suprised Jiraiya before, by getting over his other certain win jutsu before. I mean come on, you can't think that it is a certain win because the owner of the jutsu said so... Pain wasn't able to dispell it, but that doesn't mean noone else would be able to.

I already told you, I know they aren't on the same level, but we have canon evidence that Itachi has the ability to see through genjutsu and able to counter it. I am not gonna discard that fact solely based on a statement made by Jiraiya's frog(who doesn't say that the jutsu is impossible to dispell anyways, he says they won't lose).

[Kai]

"Certain win" is an all encompasing statement. It would include the impossibility of dispel because if it were possible to dispel it could not be considered a certain win.
That is the most irrational and biased statement I've ever heard.

Tsukiyomi, more directly, has been praised to be impossible to dispel and somebody has already butchered this. What gives you this silly idea about the frog song's invincibility? I also can't believe you are labeling what Pa frog said as "all encompassing" when the target in inference was Pain.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

itachi is not an idiot.

And from what I see you believe Jiraiya is.

he can hide.he also can see where jman is because sharingan can see the colour of chakra.

Its not like that otherwise Kakashi would've detected Zabuza in the mist and Obito would have saved Kakashi from losing an eye.
It doesn't let him see through the pipes in the rain country.


in your imagination maybe jman wins but in reality itachi wins.

In my imagination I take Itachi's word of them killing each other, whereas in yours Itachi wins and Jiraiya is pre skip Naruto.

look at the poll. want proof sharingan can see hand seal??go read the manga when kakashi fought kakuzu n when deidara fought against sasuke.

They can see hand seals and know the freaken element your going to use not the jutsu:facepalm

n its true j-man cannot avoid amaterasu.its been proved so many times.it just tat u cant accept it.tat is not understimating,tats fact my fren.


He can seal it, you are underrating Jiraiya, they'd kill each other remember.
Jiraiya isn't an idiot like you make him out to be.

he doesnt need to use susanoo when jman attacks him.

And you said you don't underestimate him.

a shadow clone trick a sharingan user once just because its a 30%clone.

Sharingan can't tell the difference between clones and the original if they have a fair amount of chakra.

Now quote me again when your ready to stop underrating Jiraiya.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Pein said he would had never been able to beat Jiraiya if he knew his secret.

This part got to me.
Pein is way powerful then Jiraiya, knowing the secret will do shit, why because its just his identity.
If you click the link in my signature you'll see his Ninjutsu would beat Jiraiya.

[SM00TH38]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/08/

do you really think jiraiya is going to have time to seal amaterasu like this in a real fight ?

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/08/

do you really think jiraiya is going to have time to seal amaterasu like this in a real fight ?

Why not hid in this http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000381/12.jpg
Then seal it, seriously they will kill each other, no one will solo anyone w/o effort as some of you claim.

[Jυstin]

http://i28.tinypic.com/f4fucm.jpg

Do you actually read the manga at all?

Seriously?

Association fallacy: That's not Itachi they're talking about. You must think Pein is on Itachi's(or greater) Genjutsu level with this reasoning. Sasuke made an apathetic boy cower in fear to his Genjutsu...I guess he'll pull the same thing off with Ranmaru(filler aside, I'm making a point).

By that logic, it's perfectly inept for me to say that since Tayuya's flute is powerless against Temari, she can't beat Iruka either.

[ShinAkuma]

BIG LOL


Says who ? you ?

Somebody has to say it.

Itachi suprised Jiraiya before, by getting over his other certain win jutsu before.

Frog stomach was never said to be a certain win.

I mean come on, you can't think that it is a certain win because the owner of the jutsu said so...

Amazing level of double standards.

You accept anything Itachi says as fact yet you come in here with this nonsense.

Take a walk.

Pain wasn't able to dispell it, but that doesn't mean noone else would be able to.

The point is if the frogs believed it was a certain win then they don't believe it can be dispelled.

I already told you, I know they aren't on the same level, but we have canon evidence that Itachi has the ability to see through genjutsu and able to counter it.

A b-rank genjutsu.

Would a b-rank katon counter work on amaterasu?

That is the most irrational and biased statement I've ever heard.

Coming from you that is.....completely meaningless.

Tsukiyomi, more directly, has been praised to be impossible to dispel and somebody has already butchered this.

That wasn't me so you can keep the irrelevant nonsense to yourself.

What gives you this silly idea about the frog song's invincibility? I also can't believe you are labeling what Pa frog said as "all encompassing" when the target in inference was Pain.

Let me make this clear to you - the frogs said it was a certain win. That means they don't believe it could be dispelled at all, not just in reference to Pein since it is impossible for them to know his full abilities.

Association fallacy: That's not Itachi they're talking about.

One does not need to refer directly to Itachi for it to be something he cannot do.

If while fighting Chuck Norris I say that I cannot be hurt, does that mean I believe only Chuck Norris cannot hurt me?

No, it means that I believe that I cannot be hurt at all and that belief would include those stronger than Chuck.

You must think Pein is on Itachi's(or greater) Genjutsu level with this reasoning. Sasuke made an apathetic boy cower in fear to his Genjutsu...I guess he'll pull the same thing off with Ranmaru(filler aside, I'm making a point).

I don't think this nonsense needs a response.

By that logic, it's perfectly inept for me to say that since Tayuya's flute is powerless against Temari, she can't beat Iruka either.

You do not understand logic by the looks of it.

[ShinAkuma]

it is proof the panels show itachi charging amaterasu and then using it there is no eye bleeding. in the sasuke vs itachi fight we see blood coming from his eyes before he use amaterasu. there is no blood before he uses it in part one.

It isn't proof because we don't have the panels where Itachi does all his bleeding.

And for the record there does appear to be something dripping from his eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/v6rf9w.jpg

Regardless since that image is of too low quality it isn't possible to confirm if he is bleeding or not.

itachi tranfered "HIS" powers to sasuke. considering itachi phyiscal status of when he transfered his justu its not surprizing that the condition his eyes where in would also transfer.

LOL

You think Itachi transferred his crippled eyes into Sasuke?

Ridiculous.

[HumanWine]

LOL

You think Itachi transferred his crippled eyes into Sasuke?

Ridiculous.

DAHH!!!! Itachi had da AIDS en wipeded it all ova the sauce's faceses. Now his left eyez gots AIDS. I hope it dont spread like Kabuto's AIDS but Kabuto wanted the AIDS.

[SM00TH38]

It isn't proof because we don't have the panels where Itachi does all his bleeding.

And for the record there does appear to be something dripping from his eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/v6rf9w.jpg

Regardless since that image is of too low quality it isn't possible to confirm if he is bleeding or not.



LOL

You think Itachi transferred his crippled eyes into Sasuke?

Ridiculous.

THERE IS NO BLOOD

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-148-page-5.html

the line you are trying to point out is the lines kish design kishi draws around itachi eyes

http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-148-page-7.html

if there was blood Kishi would point this out by showing blood in itachi next close up. let me guess, you think itachi wiped the blood out of his eye off panel..:zaru

whats hard to believe that sasuke would have itachi handcap eyes when itachi justu his crippled eyes to sasuke...or does sasuke and itachi have the same design for there MS...:zaru

[UltimateDeadpool]

This part got to me.
Pein is way powerful then Jiraiya, knowing the secret will do shit, why because its just his identity.
If you click the link in my signature you'll see his Ninjutsu would beat Jiraiya.

Pein said that that Jiraiya would had beat him if he knew his secret, not identity.

It isn't proof because we don't have the panels where Itachi does all his bleeding.

And for the record there does appear to be something dripping from his eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/v6rf9w.jpg

Nice find, that image to the right has a drop of blood forming from the eye. I didn't even notice that before.

[Agony]

When did it state it can? The Sharingan can't see through fog nor could Itachi see through the ceiling when Sasuke was underneath. Since the copy only had 30% of his chakra he was limited in which techniques he could use... obviously he couldn't use MS, but the regular Sharingan's abilities were not effected.

They didn't despell each others' genjutsus, they just stopped.

sasuke saw the colour of sharingan under the ground while fighting deidara.itachi didnt notice the real sasuke behind the ceiling because oro's special kawarimi is very hard to detect so itachi thought the real sasuke has been burned by amaterasu.it has been stated by itachi.when itachi died,zetsu asked'overusing the sharingan?'which means the sharingan has something to do with the users real body and chakra.

in genjutsu,if u stopped it,its called dispel.

[Agony]

And from what I see you believe Jiraiya is.



Its not like that otherwise Kakashi would've detected Zabuza in the mist and Obito would have saved Kakashi from losing an eye.
It doesn't let him see through the pipes in the rain country.




In my imagination I take Itachi's word of them killing each other, whereas in yours Itachi wins and Jiraiya is pre skip Naruto.



They can see hand seals and know the freaken element your going to use not the jutsu:facepalm




He can seal it, you are underrating Jiraiya, they'd kill each other remember.
Jiraiya isn't an idiot like you make him out to be.



And you said you don't underestimate him.



Sharingan can't tell the difference between clones and the original if they have a fair amount of chakra.

Now quote me again when your ready to stop underrating Jiraiya.

i am not trying to say jiraiya is an idiot.its just tat jiraiya doesnt know where itachi is but itachi know where jiraiya is b using the sharingan.remember sharingan can see the colour of chakra?

during tat time,kakashi and obito's sharingan wasnt strong enough.obito only a two tomoe sharingan and kakashi is using a sharingan tat doesnt fit his body.which means he cant overuse the sharingan.but now he has mangekyou sharingan,he could probably do tat same thing tat sasuke did.

eventhough not knowing the jutsu,itachi will know the element of jman using and will avoid it.how can jman seal it while amaterasu attack in an instant?imagine someone open his eyes and look at you and u are already burned by black flames,u dont even have a freaking chance o time to seal amaterasu.
which means u can only write words in just two o three seconds.n jman has to write a bunch of words to seal it.so sealing amaterasu doesnt make sense.

when jman attacks itachi can hide.it doesnt mean tat itachi has to attack him too.itachi has high speed,the most powerful genjutsu and the most powerful offensive and defensive ninjutsu.

jman is clueless against genjutsu.he doesnt even know itachi can cast a genjutsu using his finger.

[SM00TH38]

Pein said that that Jiraiya would had beat him if he knew his secret, not identity.



Nice find, that image to the right has a drop of blood forming from the eye. I didn't even notice that before.


the image on the right is from a differant chapter.. not chapter 148

[Kai]

That wasn't me so you can keep the irrelevant nonsense to yourself.
Of course it wasn't you, are you the person that dispelled Tsukiyomi?

Let me make this clear to you - the frogs said it was a certain win. That means they don't believe it could be dispelled at all, not just in reference to Pein since it is impossible for them to know his full abilities.
"If we get him before we're found.... there is no way we will lose."

Explain to me in logical detail how the frogs were sure they would win if by your own admission they didn't know Pain's full abilities. Massive, whaling LOL

[Jυstin]

It isn't proof because we don't have the panels where Itachi does all his bleeding.

And for the record there does appear to be something dripping from his eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/v6rf9w.jpg

Look at Itachi moments later. There is no sign of blood. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/)

One does not need to refer directly to Itachi for it to be something he cannot do.

In regards to an area of ability where one is praised as the best where the other is not, hell yes.

If while fighting Chuck Norris I say that I cannot be hurt, does that mean I believe only Chuck Norris cannot hurt me?

"I cannot be hurt." would equate to them saying, "This cannot be broken."

"Against you, I cannot be hurt." would equate to "If we get HIM before we're found..."

The following lines: "There's no way we'll lose." can change depending on who we substitute "him" for. If we say, "If we get that deaf guy before we're found, he'll be unaffected." Or we say, "If we get Pein before we're found, there's no way we'll lose." But if they say, "If we get Itachi before we're found, he'll most likely Mugen it on us."

Sorry, but substituting Pein for Itachi in a bout of Genjutsu IS an association fallacy.

Btw, the frogs were wrong about that, and about "no jutsu can bring 3 dead bodies back from the dead", because they were in fact very much alive. Taking what the frogs say as law is idiocy by now.

No, it means that I believe that I cannot be hurt at all and that belief would include those stronger than Chuck.

Good for you, but you'll still get hurt.

I don't think this nonsense needs a response.

Or you had none. I didn't take anything out of proportion here. You did, however. Itachi IS the greatest Genjutsu user. Sasuke DID make the apathetic Sai experience fear, but, and even though it's filler, this would NOT work on Ranmaru just because it worked on someone as emotionless as Sai. Association fallacies are not welcome here.

You do not understand logic by the looks of it.

I was going by your logic. "Frog song catches Pein and he can't break it so it will do the same to Itachi"(BIG association fallacy here) is the same logic with "Tayuya's flute doesn't work on Temari so it won't on Iruka"(same exact logic and same level of error).

I was pointing out your poor logic.

WHY didn't it work on Temari? She has a fan that blocks the flute's sound. Why then would Iruka be in the same position as Temari? The only reason it won't work on Temari is because of her fan. Iruka doesn't have this fan.

WHY didn't Pein escape the frog song? We saw Pein's first three bodies' single ability and Genjutsu wasn't among them. Why then would Itachi be in the same position as Pein? The only reason it worked so well against such an opponent is because none of those three bodies had Genjutsu skills. Itachi does have Genjutsu skills.

[Kakashlee]

:laugh I have to be loyal.. Jiraiya :jir_thumb

[ShinAkuma]

"If we get him before we're found.... there is no way we will lose."

Explain to me in logical detail how the frogs were sure they would win if by your own admission they didn't know Pain's full abilities. Massive, whaling LOL

When going against an unknown quantity how could one make an statement of impossibility about the unknown? By believing such a statement would encompass anything, even that which you don't know.

So when the frogs say it is a certain win they must believe that applies to everything. So the frogs must have believed it was impossible to dispel, not just Pein, as they could not make that determination against Pein only.

Although the frogs did believe something about Pein's power - that he was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world.

Look at Itachi moments later. There is no sign of blood. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/)

Look at Sasauke moments later. There is no sign of blood. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/08/)

Did Sasuke's eyes not bleed?

In regards to an area of ability where one is praised as the best where the other is not, hell yes.

Uh...no.

An absolute statement is meant to encompass everything. You don't get to ignore by saying "Itachi is awzome!!".

"I cannot be hurt." would equate to them saying, "This cannot be broken."

"Against you, I cannot be hurt." would equate to "If we get HIM before we're found..."

Not exactly. You analogy is invalid. The frogs did not say "only against Pein our song is a sure win", which is what would be needed in order to assume the frogs are making a distinction about Pein's ability to deal with the jutsu.


Sorry, but substituting Pein for Itachi in a bout of Genjutsu IS an association fallacy.

Except it isn't. The frogs did not make a distinction that Pein's abilities is what gives them a certain win.

In fact they couldn't make such a distinction because they couldn't know Peins full abilities. (as was shown - but they did believe Pein was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world)

The only way to say that something cannot be beaten against unknown quantities is if you believe it is impossible to beat.

Btw, the frogs were wrong about that, and about "no jutsu can bring 3 dead bodies back from the dead", because they were in fact very much alive. Taking what the frogs say as law is idiocy by now.

I didn't know you had an advance copy of future issues?

It isn't clear that Pein even used a jutsu to do what he did or if the bodies were ever actually alive.

Maybe that advanced issue is where you got the idea Itachi could perform one handed seals? LOL

Good for you, but you'll still get hurt.

Not if it is impossible for me to get hurt.

Or you had none.

No, the analogy was completely invalid.

It made less sense than Itachi's one handed seals.

I was going by your logic. "Frog song catches Pein and he can't break it so it will do the same to Itachi"

Except that isn't my logic. It would seems your problem is correctly identifying what you see and read.

[Munboy Dracule O'Brian]

Pein said that that Jiraiya would had beat him if he knew his secret, not identity.

The secret is the identity from the looks of it.

i am not trying to say jiraiya is an idiot.

If thats the case your failing.

its just tat jiraiya doesnt know where itachi is but itachi know where jiraiya is b using the sharingan.remember sharingan can see the colour of chakra?

I didn't know it could see through metal pipes, he can do it if your reasonably close not from afar like its the damn Byakugan.

during tat time,kakashi and obito's sharingan wasnt strong enough.obito only a two tomoe sharingan and kakashi is using a sharingan tat doesnt fit his body.which means he cant overuse the sharingan.but now he has mangekyou sharingan,he could probably do tat same thing tat sasuke did.

Kakashi had the 3 tomoe and couldn't see through the mist, I'm beginning to think you believe Sharingan sees chakra like the Byakugan.

eventhough not knowing the jutsu,itachi will know the element of jman using and will avoid it.

So he can fly now?

how can jman seal it while amaterasu attack in an instant?imagine someone open his eyes and look at you and u are already burned by black flames,u dont even have a freaking chance o time to seal amaterasu.

There are 2 Kage level toads on his shoulders that could seal it.

which means u can only write words in just two o three seconds.n jman has to write a bunch of words to seal it.so sealing amaterasu doesnt make sense.

Amaterasu doesn't burn as fast as you make it seem otherwise Madara would dead.

when jman attacks itachi can hide.it doesnt mean tat itachi has to attack him too.itachi has high speed,the most powerful genjutsu and the most powerful offensive and defensive ninjutsu.

You think Jiraiya will come out like an idiot, then you need to reread the Pein fight.

jman is clueless against genjutsu.he doesnt even know itachi can cast a genjutsu using his finger.

Two toads are on his shoulders it never occurred to you that they could get him out?

Now this time quote me when you are ready to stop underrating Jiraiya.

They will still kill each other.

[Jυstin]

Look at Sasauke moments later. There is no sign of blood. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/08/)

Did Sasuke's eyes not bleed?

Madara cleaned him up. Look again. He's not wet nor as badly beaten up.

Btw, Sasuke's eyes didn't bleed. That was Itachi's blood flowing down his face and across the dips in his eyes from when Itachi poked him. Argue this with everyone here and 90% will agree with me because it was already debated.

Uh...no.

An absolute statement is meant to encompass everything. You don't get to ignore by saying "Itachi is awzome!!".

I didn't. I made the valid claim that Itachi is the most powerful Genjutsu user while Pein is not. What the frog song did to Pein can't be taken into account against Itachi.

Not exactly. You analogy is invalid. The frogs did not say "only against Pein our song is a sure win", which is what would be needed in order to assume the frogs are making a distinction about Pein's ability to deal with the jutsu.

They said if it hit, they would not lose. They were wrong.


Except it isn't. The frogs did not make a distinction that Pein's abilities is what gives them a certain win.

Easy way of saying: "They're claim about their Genjutsu was wrong."

Flat out, that's what it means.

In fact they couldn't make such a distinction because they couldn't know Peins full abilities. (as was shown)

And if they were wrong about him, what stops them at Itachi?

The only way to say that something cannot be beaten against unknown quantities is if you believe it is impossible to beat.

And they were wrong.

I didn't know you had an advance copy of future issues?

It isn't clear that Pein even used a jutsu to do what he did or if the bodies were ever actually alive.

What remains is thus; the frogs were wrong about their "not lose" bet.

Maybe that advanced issue is where you got the idea Itachi could perform one handed seals? LOL

Itachi had shuriken in one hand while he performed the suiton on Kakashi. Use your head.

Not if it is impossible for me to get hurt.

What you SAY and what is REALITY are different. What the frogs predicted about their song was not what happened. They were wrong, just like you would be if you went against Chuck Norris.

I can jump over my house. Would you accept this as truth just because I thought I was right?

No, the analogy was completely invalid.

It made less sense than Itachi's one handed seals.

The analogy fit like a glove.

Itachi had the shuriken in his right hand. To perform the seals with two hands, he'd have to bring his hands together while losing the shuriken. He didn't and his sleeves never moved. The hands were not brought together.

Except that isn't my logic. It would seems your problem is correctly identifying what you see and read.

Exactly, you have no logic. It's much easier to notice when you see it through an example, isn't it?

[ShinAkuma]

Madara cleaned him up. Look again. He's not wet nor as badly beaten up.

What????

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/07/

Btw, Sasuke's eyes didn't bleed. That was Itachi's blood flowing down his face and across the dips in his eyes from when Itachi poked him. Argue this with everyone here and 90% will agree with me because it was already debated.

Are you drunk?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/02/

It would seem I was right about your inability to correctly identify what you see and read.

I didn't.

Actually you did.

They said if it hit, they would not lose. They were wrong.

They did win. What Pein did amounted to rebooting the fight. Jiraiya's enemies were dead. Death is the main way to determine victory.

And they were wrong.

Well, when Itachi can resurrect himself you may have a point.

And if they were wrong about him, what stops them at Itachi?

Except in the context of the discussion they were not wrong. Pein could do nothing once frog song was complete.

Now if you believe Itachi will overcome the frog song due to resurrection, then you may have a point.

Except Itachi cannot resurrect.

Itachi had shuriken in one hand while he performed the suiton on Kakashi. Use your head.

He used the shuriken to distract Kakashi from the jutsu he just performed the seal for.

Can you not read?

What you SAY and what is REALITY are different. What the frogs predicted about their song was not what happened. They were wrong, just like you would be if you went against Chuck Norris.

They weren't wrong in terms of what they believed the jutsu would do.

I can jump over my house. Would you accept this as truth just because I thought I was right?

The analogy is not meant to be taken literally, it is meant to illustrate a point.

You must have reading comprehension issues.

The analogy fit like a glove...

...on O.J. 's hand.

Itachi had the shuriken in his right hand. To perform the seals with two hands, he'd have to bring his hands together while losing the shuriken. He didn't and his sleeves never moved. The hands were not brought together.

He performed the seals before performing the distraction.

D'uh.

Exactly, you have no logic.

No, I said that nonsense you are attempting to pass off as my logic is in fact not my logic.

Another fine example of your inability to read.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Somebody has to say it.

Unless you are Kishimoto, your personal opinion can hardly be considered as canon.

Frog stomach was never said to be a certain win.

In another translation, Jiraiya said "Noone was able to run away from this jutsu", leaving that aside, Jiraiya's face of amazement was enough proof that he didn't expect them to get out of the frog stomach



Amazing level of double standards.

You accept anything Itachi says as fact yet you come in here with this nonsense.

Take a walk.

Those two statements are way different from each other, no double standarts here. Itachi was talking in GENERAL saying "Tsukiyomi can only be countered by a sharingan user on my level", but those frogs were talking about someone particular : PAIN. There was no direct statement that frog song is impossible to dispell.


The point is if the frogs believed it was a certain win then they don't believe it can be dispelled.

Thats called self confidence, totally irrevelevant with our topic. Nearly all characters must have said "I won't lose" but most of them did.
For example when Lee was using ura renge on Gaara, gai thought it was a certain win.


A b-rank genjutsu.

Would a b-rank katon counter work on amaterasu?

This analogy is so wrong. First of all, Itachi has the ability of seeing through genjutsu and countering it, it is not limited by a certain level or anything. And for all we know, S rank katon wouldn't be able to counter Amaterasu aswell. Why ? Because Katon jutsus are not the counter against Amaterasu.

We had seen Pain absorb a katon, if he were to hit by a stronger Katon, would he be able to absorb it? Probably yeah. We do not need to see fat pain get hit by every single jutsu to come to the conclusion that he can absorb Jutsus.

[ShinAkuma]

Unless you are Kishimoto, your personal opinion can hardly be considered as canon.

I'm not saying it canon, it simply makes more sense that what you are saying.

In another translation, Jiraiya said "Noone was able to run away from this jutsu",

No, you simply remember incorrectly.

No translation has Jiraiya saying the jutsu cannot be escaped. The only thing similar has Jiraiya saying "nobody has ever escaped from here before".

All that means it has not yet been done, not that Jiraiya believes it is impossible to do.

leaving that aside, Jiraiya's face of amazement was enough proof that he didn't expect them to get out of the frog stomach

Not expecting something and believing it cannot be done are not the same thing.

Those two statements are way different from each other, no double standarts here. Itachi was talking in GENERAL saying "Tsukiyomi can only be countered by a sharingan user on my level, but those frogs were talking about someone particular : PAIN.

The frogs do not know Pein's full ability, In fact his abilities are basically unknown beyond the fact they believe he can use the most powerful eye jutsu in the world.

In order for the frogs to believe that frog song is a certain win against an unknown they must believe it is a certain win in general. They cannot make the distinction on how it is a certain win based on Pein's ability because they do not know his abilities.

There was no direct statement that frog song is impossible to dispell.

Itachi also never said his tsukiyomi couldn't be dispelled..

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/15/

I guess you must also believe tsukiyomi can be dispelled?

Thats called self confidence, totally irrevelevant with our topic.

They are describing their jutsu and it's effects. It is a directly jutsu related discussion they are having. They aren't boasting or proclaiming self confidence.

It's no different than Itachi saying "my jutsu cannot be defeated".

If you feel that way then you must also feels Itachi is simply boasting or being self confident.

This analogy is so wrong.

No it's not, and you will see why.

First of all, Itachi has the ability of seeing through genjutsu and countering it, it is not limited by a certain level or anything.

Says who?

Why is it the Itachi fanboys always make stuff up? There is nothing in the manga that states Itachi ability to counter genjutsu is unlimited.

And for all we know, S rank katon wouldn't be able to counter Amaterasu aswell. Why ? Because Katon jutsus are not the counter against Amaterasu.

Nice and completely irrelevant.

We had seen Pain absorb a katon, if he were to hit by a stronger Katon, would he be able to absorb it? Probably yeah. We do not need to see fat pain get hit by every single jutsu to come to the conclusion that he can absorb Jutsus.

Fat Pein's ability simply appears to absorb ninjutsus in general. It doesn't seem to be related to power levels of jutsu. However it is possible a powerful enough ninjutsu would not be absorbed.(something more powerful than ultimate rasengan at least) That is neither here nor there though.

You are assuming that since Itachi has countered a B-rank genjutsu, that he should be able to counter any level of genjutsu. That is known as the no limits fallacy.


The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

Logically you could predict it is likely that Itachi could counter any B-rank genjutsu, but anything above that would not be valid.

edit:The translation online Itachi tells Kurenai that "a genjutsu at that level has no effect on me", implying that genjutsu can work, but it must be of a higher level.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/14/

[ShinAkuma]

Nice find, that image to the right has a drop of blood forming from the eye. I didn't even notice that before.

My bad. The image on the right is the uchiha hideout image. The image on the left is the one from chapter 148. I was posting side by side as a comparison.

Here is an upscaled version of the 148 image. My point was it looks like something may be forming under Itachi's eye.

http://i30.tinypic.com/1z35gud.jpg

[niyesuH]

all Itachi needs is eye contact

[Agony]

The secret is the identity from the looks of it.



If thats the case your failing.



I didn't know it could see through metal pipes, he can do it if your reasonably close not from afar like its the damn Byakugan.



Kakashi had the 3 tomoe and couldn't see through the mist, I'm beginning to think you believe Sharingan sees chakra like the Byakugan.



So he can fly now?



There are 2 Kage level toads on his shoulders that could seal it.



Amaterasu doesn't burn as fast as you make it seem otherwise Madara would dead.



You think Jiraiya will come out like an idiot, then you need to reread the Pein fight.



Two toads are on his shoulders it never occurred to you that they could get him out?

Now this time quote me when you are ready to stop underrating Jiraiya.

They will still kill each other.

kakashi's sharingan is not as good as itachi and sasuken i am not the one hu's failing but u r.look at the poll.everyone knows itachi is stonger then jiraiya.

has it ever been stated tat sharingan cannot see through pipes?it could see through the ground then wads the problem by looking through pipes??

they start ten metres away.itachi can jump to avoid it.wad?are u trying to say jiraiya will keep on using Swamp Of The Underworld the whole time?jiraiya would think it doesnt make sense to use The Swamp Of The Underworld to kill itachi.jman uses it only to kill summons like manda.

r u trying to say jiraiya can still write seals while being burn by the legendary black flames?when did it stated tat the two kage frogs knows how to use sealing fire technique?

madara was burn at the shoulder.not at the face.n madara knows a technique tat can defeat amaterasu.tats the reason his not dead yet.

again u fail,Munboy Dracule O'Brian.

[Chaos Hokage]

Jiraiya would win. He was strong enough to kill an Rinnegan user (Fuuma Pein) even though his left arm was chop off and low on chakra. So he could kill Itachi as well.

[Kai]

When going against an unknown quantity how could one make an statement of impossibility about the unknown? By believing such a statement would encompass anything, even that which you don't know.

So when the frogs say it is a certain win they must believe that applies to everything. So the frogs must have believed it was impossible to dispel, not just Pein, as they could not make that determination against Pein only.

Although the frogs did believe something about Pein's power - that he was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world.
It is impossible for their move to be a certain win if they know Pain hasn't shown everything he's got. You've agreed to this before I started to bother refuting.

There is nothing deeper to that comment and nothing intuitive about your interpretation. I can see you're just an alarmist that twitches at the slightest wording that you can warp to your own semantic game.

It's ludicrous. It is fact that every genjutsu can be dispelled. This was finalized in the Uchiha match.

[niyesuH]

It is impossible for their move to be a certain win if they know Pain hasn't shown everything he's got.

There is nothing intuitive about that comment. I can see you're just an alarmist that twitches at the slightest wording that you can warp to your own semantic game.

It's ludicrous. It is fact that every genjutsu can be dispelled. This was finalized in the Uchiha match.

u shouldnt compare Uchiha's to Jiraiya though.. MS can be blocked by sharingan only

[Kai]

u shouldnt compare Uchiha's to Jiraiya though.. MS can be blocked by sharingan only
He's saying Frog Song can't be dispelled. At all.

[ShinAkuma]

It is impossible for their move to be a certain win if they know Pain hasn't shown everything he's got.

But they believe it is a certain win, which is the point.

As far as the frogs are concerned Frog song is sure win, meaning they don't believe it can be dispelled. Coupled with the effects of the frog song - paralysis of the mind and body - it would seem their belief is not unfounded.

There is...

I don't care what you think. Your POV is so warped by your pro Itachi agenda that anything you say is little more than worthless.

It's ludicrous. It is fact that every genjutsu can be dispelled. This was finalized in the Uchiha match.

Obviously no jutsu is beyond defeat, however it is the difficulty of dispelling such a jutsu that is the point.

It's amazing how one such as yourself has no problem trumping the things Itachi has said as viable fact yet when somebody else says something similar it couldn't possibly be true.

Nice double standards.

[niyesuH]

ah.. my mistake:P i doubt the match will go that far anyway.. ofc it does depend on the location.. in an open ground that jutsu is impossible to pull off

[Prowler]

Jiraiya wins. Jiraiya is a lot stronger than Itachi, and looks like Itachi has afraid of him.
lol and Itachi is almost blind.

[niyesuH]

Obviously no jutsu is beyond defeat, however it is the difficulty of dispelling such a jutsu that is the point.

It's amazing how one such as yourself has no problem trumping the things Itachi has said as viable fact yet when somebody else says something similar it couldn't possibly be true.

Nice double standards.

every genjutsu has the mind as target.. be it through sight or sound.. and it's clearly stated that sharingan can see through genjutsu.. it wasnt limited to sight only

[ShinAkuma]

ah.. my mistake:P i doubt the match will go that far anyway.. ofc it does depend on the location.. in an open ground that jutsu is impossible to pull off


The specific circumstances for this thread are:Location: Abandoned Amegakure no Sato (Village Hidden in the Rain; where Jiraiya and Pein fought)
Starting Positions: They both have kage bunshin standing 10 metres apart, facing each other on a street. Both of them are hidden somewhere nearby (say 40 metres roughly behind their kage bunshin, hiding).
Restrictions: None. Jiraiya may use sennin mōdo, kuchiyose: Gamabunta, doton: yomi numa, gamaguchi shibari, his barrier jutsu and more. Itachi may use tsukuyomi, amaterasu and susano'o.
Circumstances: Both Jiraiya and Itachi are at full life and stamina. This is Part I Itachi in terms of the condition of his eyes.
For their jutsu and links to them using them: Jiraiya (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=12783075&postcount=140), Itachi (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=14012295&postcount=179).

[Kai]

But they believe it is a certain win, which is the point.

As far as the frogs are concerned Frog song is sure win
They thought it would work on Pain, as he was the target in mention. It wasn't a universal statement. It failed anyways, so you can keep this idea locked away.

I don't care what you think. Your POV is so warped by your pro Itachi agenda that anything you say is little more than worthless.
Everyone has seen claims of Itachi having unbeatable genjutsu but you are the first delusional to claim Jiraiya having one.

[Watchman]

But they believe it is a certain win, which is the point.

As far as the frogs are concerned Frog song is sure win, meaning they don't believe it can be dispelled. Coupled with the effects of the frog song - paralysis of the mind and body - it would seem their belief is not unfounded.

Firstly, I must point out that you are being very, very selective about believing character statements.

If it's pointed out that Itachi said "only an Uchiha can beat him", then the person who has said so has a "pro-Itachi agenda". If it's about how Jiraiya is unbeatable, then you do not seem to doubt, even for a moment, that it is 100% undeniable truth.

I would also say that regarding character-made statements: Sand Siblings thought Gaara was untouchable... until Rock Lee and Sasuke came along. Kidomaru thought his web was unbreakable... until he met Neji. Pa Frog thought the Frog Song was an instant win... until he came up against Pein Rikudou. There is nobody better suited to counter Frog Song than Uchiha Itachi, who has shown the best Genjutsu mastery in the entire Manga, and been commended for it by a plethora of characters (including Jiraiya).

I don't care what you think. Your POV is so warped by your pro Itachi agenda that anything you say is little more than worthless.

Why should we care what you think? Your POV seems to be just as warped by a pro-Jiraiya agenda.

It's amazing how one such as yourself has no problem trumping the things Itachi has said as viable fact yet when somebody else says something similar it couldn't possibly be true.

Nice double standards.

:huh You are exactly the same, just replace "Itachi" with "Jiraiya". Please don't call people hypocrites when you are guilty of the same fault. :wink

[Ryuk]

Jiraiya, Itachi admited he would lose to him before.

[ShinAkuma]

Firstly, I must point out that you are being very, very selective about believing character statements.

Interesting since I actually am not.

If it's pointed out that Itachi said "only an Uchiha can beat him", then the person who has said so has a "pro-Itachi agenda". If it's about how Jiraiya is unbeatable, then you do not seem to doubt, even for a moment, that it is 100% undeniable truth.

Except I never said Jiraiya is unbeatable nor do I discount character statements in Itachi favor.

I would also say that regarding character-made statements: Sand Siblings thought Gaara was untouchable... until Rock Lee and Sasuke came along. Kidomaru thought his web was unbreakable... until he met Neji. Pa Frog thought the Frog Song was an instant win... until he came up against Pein Rikudou. There is nobody better suited to counter Frog Song than Uchiha Itachi, who has shown the best Genjutsu mastery in the entire Manga, and been commended for it by a plethora of characters (including Jiraiya).

I have no issue with how anybody believes they should interpret character made statemets. My issue is when people pick and choose which are valid and which aren't according to preference.

Why should we care what you think? Your POV seems to be just as warped by a pro-Jiraiya agenda.

I never asked you to care about anything.

However it would be best if you actually read the thread before contributing your two cents.

:huh You are exactly the same, just replace "Itachi" with "Jiraiya". Please don't call people hypocrites when you are guilty of the same fault. :wink

It's unfortunate that you would come in without reading what is being discussed. You are mistaken and misinformed.

[Deputy Myself]

They were both Pain's bitches

lol on topic, Itachi would Mangekyou Jiraiya instantly.

[UltimateDeadpool]

u shouldnt compare Uchiha's to Jiraiya though.. MS can be blocked by sharingan only

Not true at all or else Kakashi wouldn't had been effected by Tsukiyomi and Sasuke wouldn't have had to run from Amaterasu.

every genjutsu has the mind as target.. be it through sight or sound.. and it's clearly stated that sharingan can see through genjutsu.. it wasnt limited to sight only

"See though" as in recognize it easily. Recognizing and being effected by it or countering it are different things.

Itachi would Mangekyou Jiraiya instantly.

But would it succeed?

[Truepotential]

Jiraiya actually has a huge advantage over Itachi that most shinobi don't have, detection barrier, which means he can avoid genjutsu by Itachi.

First, Jiraiya summons Gamabunta and Gamaken and makes a few KB's.

The KBS spam the Katon + Oil combo, which ONE OF THEM nearly engulfed Manda.

When Itachi is distracted, Jiraiya retreats to prepare for Hermit Mode and eventually
Frog Song.

By the time Itachi recoveres from all those AoE Katon spamming, Jiraiya would most likely have Hermit Mode in use, then he uses Frog Song.

Gamaken, Gamabunta, and the KBS use teamwork to counter genjutsu, the summons close their eyes while the KB's tell the summons where the hell Itachi is.

Itachi's genjutsu is worthless against Kb's, Kakashi proved this.

Itachi will probably have to use Amaterasu to destroy the summons, in his fight with Sasuke Amaterasu actually took some time to use it. ( Or Use Susano)

By that time, Jiraiya's Frog Song will be in place.

Frog Song > Tsuyokiomi.

For one it doesn't require eye contact.

Works on multiple opponents at a time.

Basically impossible to dispell, it freezes your mind and nerves, how the hell are you gonna dispel genjutsu when that happens.

If Itachi has Susano activated he cannot control it due to his mind and nerves being paralyzed.

Jiraiya wins.

Not to mention a surprise Swamp of the Underground can be troublesome as well.

[Kai]

"See though" as in recognize it easily. Recognizing and being effected by it or countering it are different things.
It's impossible for the Sharingan to grant just recognition.

As you can see, Sasuke's Sharingan is literally unaffected (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31918
) by the Rain-nin's genjutsu.

[niyesuH]

Not true at all or else Kakashi wouldn't had been effected by Tsukiyomi and Sasuke wouldn't have had to run from Amaterasu.

it depends on the skill of the user to ofc.. what i ment is that only a sharingan user has the chance of canceling the effect of Tsuyokomi



"See though" as in recognize it easily. Recognizing and being effected by it or countering it are different things.

this is open for discussion.. i did get the impression that the frog song was a high lvl genjutsu.. but i believe Itachi can counter it



But would it succeed?

Jiraiya admitted that he is not good in genjutsu.. guess that would mean against it to

[Watchman]

[QUOTE]I never asked you to care about anything.

No, instead you said you did not care to listen to Kai's comments, ostensibly due to some "Pro-Itachi" agenda.

However it would be best if you actually read the thread before contributing your two cents.

I skimmed it, and it seems to be almost ten pages of your argument used by both sides.

It's unfortunate that you would come in without reading what is being discussed. You are mistaken and misinformed.

Mistaken and misinformed? For telling you not to sink to the level of those who bog the debate down in fanboyish interpretations of the Manga? Try again.

[ShinAkuma]

No, instead you said you did not care to listen to Kai's comments, ostensibly due to some "Pro-Itachi" agenda.

Yes, but then you asked why you should care.

You shouldn't or I at least I don't think you should.

I skimmed it, and it seems to be almost ten pages of your argument used by both sides.

So you haven't actually read anything. That explains much.

Mistaken and misinformed? For telling you not to sink to the level of those who bog the debate down in fanboyish interpretations of the Manga? Try again.

No you are mistaken and misinformed for:


Mistake/misinformation #1

Firstly, I must point out that you are being very, very selective about believing character statements.

I am not selecting which character statements are valid. I believe Itachi's tsukiyomi is unbreakable for the most part just as frog song.

Mistake/misinformation #2

If it's pointed out that Itachi said "only an Uchiha can beat him", then the person who has said so has a "pro-Itachi agenda". If it's about how Jiraiya is unbeatable, then you do not seem to doubt, even for a moment, that it is 100% undeniable truth.

I never said that simply accepting what Itachi has said constitutes a pro-Itachi agenda, I have said accepting what Itachi says while simultaneously discounting similar statements not partaining to Itachi constitutes a pro-Itachi agenda.

Mistake/misinformation #3

:huh You are exactly the same, just replace "Itachi" with "Jiraiya". Please don't call people hypocrites when you are guilty of the same fault. :wink

Accusations of hypocrisy when I accept what has been said about both Itachi and Jiraiya.

So no HK, you are not mistaken and misinformed based on your advice, you are mistaken and misinformed based on your mistakes and misinformation.

[Zero Requiem]

I would say too close to call.

[Watchman]

Yes, but then you asked why you should care.

You shouldn't or I at least I don't think you should.



So you haven't actually read anything. That explains much.



No you are mistaken and misinformed for:


Mistake/misinformation #1



I am not selecting which character statements are valid. I believe Itachi's tsukiyomi is unbreakable for the most part just as frog song.

Mistake/misinformation #2



I never said that simply accepting what Itachi has said constitutes a pro-Itachi agenda, I have said accepting what Itachi says while simultaneously discounting similar statements not partaining to Itachi constitutes a pro-Itachi agenda.

Mistake/misinformation #3



Accusations of hypocrisy when I accept what has been said about both Itachi and Jiraiya.

So no HK, you are not mistaken and misinformed based on your advice, you are mistaken and misinformed based on your mistakes and misinformation.

Hmm...

*concedes the argument to read the entire thread in detail*

[Grimmjowsensei]

I'm not saying it canon, it simply makes more sense that what you are saying.

It doesn't make any sense at all.


No, you simply remember incorrectly.
No translation has Jiraiya saying the jutsu cannot be escaped. The only thing similar has Jiraiya saying "nobody has ever escaped from here before".

All that means it has not yet been done, not that Jiraiya believes it is impossible to do.

Lol I said the same thing.

thats the same thing with frogs comment on the jutsu btw. How do you think frogs came to the conclusion that they wouldn't lose, probably they didn't see anyone dispelling it.


Not expecting something and believing it cannot be done are not the same thing.

Not in general but in the matter we are discussing about, it is more or less the same.

The frogs do not know Pein's full ability, In fact his abilities are basically unknown beyond the fact they believe he can use the most powerful eye jutsu in the world.

In order for the frogs to believe that frog song is a certain win against an unknown they must believe it is a certain win in general. They cannot make the distinction on how it is a certain win based on Pein's ability because they do not know his abilities.

Which makes it even more ridicilious to believe that it is a certain win in that situation.

Itachi also never said his tsukiyomi couldn't be dispelled..

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/15/

I guess you must also believe tsukiyomi can be dispelled?

I don't see where you are getting at. Itachi says his tsukiyomi could be beaten by another sharingan user. We had seen that happen already.


They are describing their jutsu and it's effects. It is a directly jutsu related discussion they are having. They aren't boasting or proclaiming self confidence.

It's no different than Itachi saying "my jutsu cannot be defeated".

They are different things. Either you are over thinking or not thinking @ all.

'If this jutsu succeeds, I won't lose' means : I think my opponent(my current opponent) won't be able to overcome this jutsu(that is not a general statement, not based on anything but my personal experience and confidence).
'Tsukiyomi can only be beaten by another sharingan user' means : There is a requirement to dispell this technique, and that is to have a same or highler level sharingan than Itachi's. This is a universal statement.

No it's not, and you will see why.

It is.

Says who?

Why is it the Itachi fanboys always make stuff up? There is nothing in the manga that states Itachi ability to counter genjutsu is unlimited.

It doesn't say it is limited aswell, thats where your analogy fails.


Fat Pein's ability simply appears to absorb ninjutsus in general. It doesn't seem to be related to power levels of jutsu. However it is possible a powerful enough ninjutsu would not be absorbed.(something more powerful than ultimate rasengan at least) That is neither here nor there though.

You are assuming that since Itachi has countered a B-rank genjutsu, that he should be able to counter any level of genjutsu. That is known as the no limits fallacy.

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

Logically you could predict it is likely that Itachi could counter any B-rank genjutsu, but anything above that would not be valid.

edit:The translation online Itachi tells Kurenai that "a genjutsu at that level has no effect on me", implying that genjutsu can work, but it must be of a higher level.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/14/


Itachi has shown ability of countering genjutsu. But I assume what you want me to do is to find some manga scans showing Itachi countering frog genjutsu, or another genjutsu which is stated to be on frog songs level.

Then I'll ask you to bring me the scans where ITachi is not able to counter frogsong genjutsu, or a scan which says it is impossible to counter frog song genjutsu.

You are assuming that Itachi won't be able to dispell it, I assume he will be able to.

I didn't say he is immune to genjutsu or something, it is just that there is always a possiblity that he can dispell or counter genjutsu, and based on that possiblity he has a higher chance of winning this fight,because frog song is probably the best jutsu in Jiraiya's arsenal and also there is no possible way of Jiraiya dispelling Tsukiyomi.

[ShinAkuma]

It doesn't make any sense at all.

The things you say.

Lol I said the same thing.

Not exactly.

thats the same thing with frogs comment on the jutsu btw. How do you think frogs came to the conclusion that they wouldn't lose, probably they didn't see anyone dispelling it.

"thats the same thing with Itachi's comment on the tsukiyomi btw. How do you think Itachi came to the conclusion that it couldn't be beaten, probably they didn't see anyone dispelling it."

Works both ways.

The question now is, do you discount both or accept both?


Not in general but in the matter we are discussing about, it is more or less the same.

It's not the same.

Surprise at the unexpected or unprecedented is not the same as believing something to be impossible. It simply means one believed it to be unlikely.

Which makes it even more ridicilious to believe that it is a certain win in that situation.

Itachi said "only a uchiha can beat me", except Itachi hasn't fought every single non uchiha, so his statement is equally ridiculous, and yet you seem to accept that which is said on Itachi's behalf.

Do you understand? Any rational or justification you can imagine to discount statements made on Jiraiya's behalf or any other non Itachi character are also equally applicable to Itachi.

Applying such rational to only one side of the debate amounts to hypocrisy.

I don't see where you are getting at. Itachi says his tsukiyomi could be beaten by another sharingan user. We had seen that happen already.

Actually he never said that. He said it could not be dispelled and that only another sharingan user could defeat him.

However interpretation of that scene is debatable.

They are different things. Either you are over thinking or not thinking @ all.

'If this jutsu succeeds, I won't lose' means : I think my opponent(my current opponent) won't be able to overcome this jutsu(that is not a general statement, not based on anything but my personal experience and confidence).

You do understand that the frogs believed Pein to be capable of the most powerful eye jutsus in the entire world?

So even if you apply your interpretation you would also need to apply what the frogs believed - and they believed that somebody capable of the most powerful eye jutsus in the entire world could no break the frog song.

'Tsukiyomi can only be beaten by another sharingan user' means : There is a requirement to dispell this technique, and that is to have a same or highler level sharingan than Itachi's. This is a universal statement.

Except Itachi never actually said that,(as far as I have seen) though you are welcome to provide a translation where he has.


It doesn't say it is limited aswell, thats where your analogy fails.

You are still trying to apply the no limits fallacy.

Itachi has shown ability of countering genjutsu. But I assume what you want me to do is to find some manga scans showing Itachi countering frog genjutsu, or another genjutsu which is stated to be on frog songs level.

Then I'll ask you to bring me the scans where ITachi is not able to counter frogsong genjutsu, or a scan which says it is impossible to counter frog song genjutsu.

It's almost like you just ignored you own fallacy.

Here it is again:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

This is the exact fallacy you are using.

We also have Itachi indirectly admitting that genjutsu works on him, just not a B-rank genjutsu.

You can wallow in your fallacy all you want. Don't expect me to play along while you do so however.

I didn't say he is immune to genjutsu or something, it is just that there is always a possiblity that he can dispell or counter genjutsu, and based on that possiblity he has a higher chance of winning this fight,because frog song is probably the best jutsu in Jiraiya's arsenal and also there is no possible way of Jiraiya dispelling Tsukiyomi.

What is possible and what is likely are two different things. If it isn't likely for Itachi to dispell frog song then saying he could is not a viable counter.

Can you mention it is possible? Sure, but it isn't relevant to a versus topic since it is highly unlikely.

In fiction anything is possible, but only that which is likely can be applied to such debates.

[Zelkova]

I have been allured by this topic's name even though I don't lurk in MBD, normally... :ninja

It's ludicrous. It is fact that every genjutsu can be dispelled. This was finalized in the Uchiha match.However, you need to look at who is the one that dispelled the Tsukiyomi. It was Sasuke, an Uchiha, a sharingan wielder.

I believe Itachi said a while ago in part 1 that only an Uchiha can counter an Uchiha while Kakashi said that only someone with Sharingan can counter Itachi.

These factors indicate clearly that anti-sharingan doesn't exist in normal people(with the exception of Deidara).

So, in this case, it's impossible for Jiraiya to dispel Tsukiyomi.

Jiraiya actually has a huge advantage over Itachi that most shinobi don't have, detection barrier, which means he can avoid genjutsu by Itachi.

First, Jiraiya summons Gamabunta and Gamaken and makes a few KB's.If Jiraiya tries to summon Gamabunta & co, that's a huge disadvantage for him. Because it would indicate that his chakra would be wasted up on summoning Gamabunta and Gamaken than doing Sannin-mode.

Plus, if Jiraiya uses these gigantic frogs, Susanoo can easily slice these frogs like it did to snakes. Theoretically, snakes are faster than frogs so it's natural for Susanoo to slice frogs easier.

The KBS spam the Katon + Oil combo, which ONE OF THEM nearly engulfed Manda. Oil combo could be good. However, if you are targeting a small person, that jutsu which is of large AOE is ineffective since the small target can run away easily.

To top your fact further--->

1- If Gamabunta is sliced, he wouldn't be doing Oil combo,
2- Susanoo seems to have ethereal(intangible existence) body,
3- There's mirror of Yata, which is known as the ultimate defense(as stated by Zetsu),

Ability of the shield produced by mirror of Yata --->

-"A shield that can turn back any attack."(Zetsu's comment)

When Itachi is distracted, Jiraiya retreats to prepare for Hermit Mode and eventually
Frog Song.

By the time Itachi recoveres from all those AoE Katon spamming, Jiraiya would most likely have Hermit Mode in use, then he uses Frog Song. Logically speaking, sound is slower than light.

Eye sight is carried by light. And, Itachi(with his sharingan) should be able to see chakra flow of this genjutsu which is streaming in air as the song is sung.

Since light travels faster than sound, Itachi should be able to see the sound to dodge the chakra flow than to be hit by the song.

Gamaken, Gamabunta, and the KBS use teamwork to counter genjutsu, the summons close their eyes while the KB's tell the summons where the hell Itachi is.It's not like KBs cannot be affected by Genjutsu. They can be affected so Itachi doesn't need to use Mangekyou and can just use surrounding-type-genjutsu which he used at the beginning of the Uchiha fight.

Itachi's genjutsu is worthless against Kb's, Kakashi proved this.No. KB took the hit, however, the profit for Kakashi at that time was that he(the actual one) didn't take the hit. So, the genjutsu isn't entirely worthless.

Itachi will probably have to use Amaterasu to destroy the summons, in his fight with Sasuke Amaterasu actually took some time to use it. ( Or Use Susano)I believe that this fight is taken place in Hidden Rain so there is a pretty much fuel for Amaterasu.

Amaterasu itself is strong, however, it needs fuel to be more effective(like it used forest as fuel). And fuel is sufficient in this place with all these buildings and pipes. So, Itachi doesn't need to use Amaterasu directly on summons to inflict damages.

By that time, Jiraiya's Frog Song will be in place.Not really.

Frog Song > Tsuyokiomi.

For one it doesn't require eye contact.

Works on multiple opponents at a time.

Basically impossible to dispell, it freezes your mind and nerves, how the hell are you gonna dispel genjutsu when that happens.Light travels faster than sound. Eye contact is a form of light's transportation.

If Itachi has Susano activated he cannot control it due to his mind and nerves being paralyzed.I find that quote hard to believe even though Jiraiya himself said so.

Because, if the mind & nerves are truly & completely paralysed, the person(Pein) shouldn't be able to talk or think. But he did. :>

Jiraiya wins.Itachi wins.

Not to mention a surprise Swamp of the Underground can be troublesome as well.It could be troublesome, however, you have to note that they are fighting on buildings and such buildings are the places to land than the ground.


:)

[Grimmjowsensei]

The things you say.



Not exactly.



"thats the same thing with Itachi's comment on the tsukiyomi btw. How do you think Itachi came to the conclusion that it couldn't be beaten, probably they didn't see anyone dispelling it."

Works both ways.

The question now is, do you discount both or accept both?




It's not the same.

Surprise at the unexpected or unprecedented is not the same as believing something to be impossible. It simply means one believed it to be unlikely.



Itachi said "only a uchiha can beat me", except Itachi hasn't fought every single non uchiha, so his statement is equally ridiculous, and yet you seem to accept that which is said on Itachi's behalf.

Do you understand? Any rational or justification you can imagine to discount statements made on Jiraiya's behalf or any other non Itachi character are also equally applicable to Itachi.

Applying such rational to only one side of the debate amounts to hypocrisy.



Actually he never said that. He said it could not be dispelled and that only another sharingan user could defeat him.

However interpretation of that scene is debatable.



You do understand that the frogs believed Pein to be capable of the most powerful eye jutsus in the entire world?

So even if you apply your interpretation you would also need to apply what the frogs believed - and they believed that somebody capable of the most powerful eye jutsus in the entire world could no break the frog song.



Except Itachi never actually said that,(as far as I have seen) though you are welcome to provide a translation where he has.




You are still trying to apply the no limits fallacy.



It's almost like you just ignored you own fallacy.

Here it is again:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

This is the exact fallacy you are using.

We also have Itachi indirectly admitting that genjutsu works on him, just not a B-rank genjutsu.

You can wallow in your fallacy all you want. Don't expect me to play along while you do so however.



What is possible and what is likely are two different things. If it isn't likely for Itachi to dispell frog song then saying he could is not a viable counter.

Can you mention it is possible? Sure, but it isn't relevant to a versus topic since it is highly unlikely.

In fiction anything is possible, but only that which is likely can be applied to such debates.

Its getting really boring, because nothing will change your idea even slightly, seems that you don't even accept the possiblity of Itachi dispelling frog song, even though there is sufficent evidence that it is possible for him to dispell it. For me Itachi being the strongest genjutsu user in the manga is enough evidence to belive that he'd be able to dispell it. That kurenai thing only spices it up a bit.

Also Pain having the most powerful dojutsu in the universe doesn't mean he is the best dealing with genjutsu. Doojutsus have their own benefits, not necessarily they specialize on Genjutsu like Sharingan.

Either show me scans which renders frog song genjutsu immune to any dispelling or countering techniques and the lack of Itachi's skill in genjutsu or drop this ridicilious argument of yours.
This thread has gone beyond a battledome thread, we are like analyzing the entire manga bit by bit and in the end, getting nowhere.

[Agony]

Jiraiya, Itachi admited he would lose to him before.
read the latest manga then u will know why itachi said tat.
Jiraiya would win. He was strong enough to kill an Rinnegan user (Fuuma Pein) even though his left arm was chop off and low on chakra. So he could kill Itachi as well.
A>B>C doesnt work here.
Jiraiya wins. Jiraiya is a lot stronger than Itachi, and looks like Itachi has afraid of him.
lol and Itachi is almost blind.
OP said itachi has the same eyesight as part one.so his not nearly blind.itachi's not afraid of him.read the latest manga my fren.all itachi said to kisame was fake when they talked about jiraiya.

[ShinAkuma]

Its getting really boring, because nothing will change your idea even slightly, seems that you don't even accept the possiblity of Itachi dispelling frog song,

It's really becoming annoying how you refuse to read.

I said in the freaking post you quoted that anything is possible.

Your problem is you don't f*cking read!

even though there is sufficent evidence that it is possible for him to dispell it.

He countered a B-rank genjutsu. How is that sufficient evidence?

Is an example of countering a b-rank katon applicable to amaterasu?

For me Itachi being the strongest genjutsu user in the manga is enough evidence to belive that he'd be able to dispell it. That kurenai thing only spices it up a bit.

I'm so thrilled that your own fanboyism is enough for you to believe anything you want.

Awesome.

Also Pain having the most powerful dojutsu in the universe doesn't mean he is the best dealing with genjutsu. Doojutsus have their own benefits, not necessarily they specialize on Genjutsu like Sharingan.

They believed he was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world. You must understand that includes sharingan techniques that could potentially dispell?

Either show me scans...

One more time!

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

[Beluga]

Pervy would win :del.

[Jυstin]

[QUOTE]What????

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/07/

Are you drunk?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/02/

So this is what you are referring to. You have a point. Though, when Itachi did this against Sasuke in the fight, the blood did not disappear. It was there even until he died. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/17/) I'm going to go with Itachi's example since we're not discussing his brother in this bout.


Actually you did.

I didn't say Itachi was awesome....though both characters are. You're arguing that the frog song is like Tsukuyomi. Gonna quote Kai here:
Everyone has seen claims of Itachi having unbeatable genjutsu but you are the first delusional to claim Jiraiya having one.

They did win. What Pein did amounted to rebooting the fight. Jiraiya's enemies were dead. Death is the main way to determine victory.

Apparently, in this case for Jiraiya, it wasn't. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/17/)

Well, when Itachi can resurrect himself you may have a point.

Itachi has nothing to do with their claim against Pein, who did what they thought impossible. Nice attempt to dodge a point.

Except in the context of the discussion they were not wrong. Pein could do nothing once frog song was complete.

Exactly my point.

Look at what Kai said again:

They thought it would work on Pain, as he was the target in mention. It wasn't a universal statement. It failed anyways, so you can keep this idea locked away.

By any case, trying to continue with this argument is pointless because it's both an association fallacy and a no-limits fallacy to think that the success of the jutsu on ITACHI can be determined by the success of the jutsu on PEIN.

Now if you believe Itachi will overcome the frog song due to resurrection, then you may have a point.

Except Itachi cannot resurrect.

No, I believe he will because of his ability with Genjutsu. Pein and Itachi differ.

Again:
It's impossible for the Sharingan to grant just recognition.

As you can see, Sasuke's Sharingan is literally unaffected (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume7.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31918
) by the Rain-nin's genjutsu.

This is where Itachi and Pein differ.

He used the shuriken to distract Kakashi from the jutsu he just performed the seal for.

Can you not read?

And while performing the jutsu, his right hand was occupied by shuriken.

Can YOU not analyze?

They weren't wrong in terms of what they believed the jutsu would do.

That's not what they were talking about. They said, "There's no way we'll lose." not, "He's not breaking out of it."

The analogy is not meant to be taken literally, it is meant to illustrate a point.

You must have reading comprehension issues.

My point was because I SAY, THINK, or BELIEVE something, like your analogy or the frogs' words, it doesn't make it true.



He performed the seals before performing the distraction.

D'uh.

That jutsu must have taken a while to come into effect. Still, that's YOUR assumption. Neither of us can prove one to be more right than the other on this matter since what you said is also, to some extent, plausible.

No, I said that nonsense you are attempting to pass off as my logic is in fact not my logic.

Another fine example of your inability to read.

In my logic, all I did was change the subjects and situation that was used in your logic. I didn't take it out of proportion.

[Grimmjowsensei]

It's really becoming annoying how you refuse to read.

I said in the freaking post you quoted that anything is possible.

Your problem is you don't f*cking read!


Chill man. No scans no discussion. You should know better.

He countered a B-rank genjutsu. How is that sufficient evidence?

Is an example of countering a b-rank katon applicable to amaterasu?

roflmao, excuseme but this is utter bullsh*t. Since when katons became the proper counter for Amaterasu? The difference between Itachi's skill of countering genjutsu and your example of katon-amaterasu is so vast that it is ridiclious. Only Analogy with Itachi's genjutsu countering ability you could make is the fat pains jutsu absorbtion, but you refuse to do it, because it makes sense lol.

I'm so thrilled that your own fanboyism is enough for you to believe anything you want.

Awesome.

Yeah yeah... I am thrilled with your baseless fiction aswell.

They believed he was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world. You must understand that includes sharingan techniques that could potentially dispell?

Hahah its even more ridicilous then your katon-amaterasu argument. Sure, Rinnegan is equipped with anti sharingan and genjutsu abilities. We know that because...

One more time!

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

No scans then.

I assume that my job here is done.

[Jυstin]

They believed he was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world. You must understand that includes sharingan techniques that could potentially dispell?

Either their belief was wrong, or you missed something:

Dojutsu =/= Genjutsu. Dojutsu are eye techniques. They don't have to be Genjutsu for this to be true.

[Watchman]

Right then. Read the entire thread, hope I don't make an arse of myself again.

B-Ranked Katons=Amaterasu/B-Ranked Genjutsu=Frog Song?:
We have seen evidence that Amataerasu>other Katons, in the Uchiha Bros. Fight. We can draw from this that Amaterasu>Other Katons and cannot be countered by another Katon. We have not seen evidence that Frog Song cannot be countered by the same technique Itachi used to counter Kurenai's Genjutsu.

Important thing that people have been forgetting:

Most of the talk in the thread has been centred around the most powerful attacks of Itachi and Jiraiya, and how they will match up against one another. However, this is assuming that Jiraiya can get to both Hermit Mode and then unleash the Frog Song.

A question not asked is: Can Jiraiya even get to Hermit Mode before Itachi fights him? Will he be able to fight on an even stead with Itachi in Base form, or if caught whilst charging Hermit Mode?

Can he fight on par with Itachi whilst charging Frog Song? Does he need Frog Song? Can he use it before Itachi uses Amaterasu?

There is more to this fight, I think, than just "Susano-o vs. Frog Song + Swamp of the Underworld".

[Jυstin]

My question is, "When the frogs start singing, why not cover your ears?" I mean, it's perfectly inept to others when they think it's okay to say that Itachi's Genjutsu is useless because Jiraiya will not look into his eyes. Why was the idea that Itachi can do the same against Jiraiya's Genjutsu never even thought of?

[Maximus]

My question is, "When the frogs start singing, why not cover your ears?" I mean, it's perfectly inept to others when they think it's okay to say that Itachi's Genjutsu is useless because Jiraiya will not look into his eyes. Why was the idea that Itachi can do the same against Jiraiya's Genjutsu never even thought of?

I am one of believers that Itachi can see through Jiraiya's Frog Song and especially this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/05/) illusion.

but covering ears wouldn't be enough. The sound of frog song was able to travel thourgh the tunnels/pipes (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/10/). Covering ears wouldn't be sufficient.

[Jυstin]

I am one of believers that Itachi can see through Jiraiya's Frog Song and especially this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/05/) illusion.

but covering ears wouldn't be enough. The sound of frog song was able to travel thourgh the tunnels/pipes (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/10/). Covering ears wouldn't be sufficient.

You do have a point there. You'd need something soundproof to accomplish what I said :lmao

[Grimmjowsensei]

You do have a point there. You'd need something soundproof to accomplish what I said :lmao

He could stab himself in the ears, but probably he'd die too.

[ShinAkuma]

roflmao, excuseme but this is utter bullsh*t. Since when katons became the proper counter for Amaterasu?

You are completely missing the point.

I'll give you an example.

Hypothetically say we have Asuma fight another ninja who attacks Asuma with a B-rank Katon and Asuma uses a Katon counter, say an extinguishing jutsu, that extinguishes the katon. Can we now use that as an example that Asuma could use that same extinguishing jutsu to counter amaterasu?


I assume that my job here is done.

I sure hope so, wading through your nonsense is tiresome.


Right then. Read the entire thread, hope I don't make an arse of myself again.

B-Ranked Katons=Amaterasu/B-Ranked Genjutsu=Frog Song?:

I think you misunderstood my point.

Same example I used above with the parallels in brackets:

Hypothetically say we have Asuma (Itachi) fight another ninja (Kurenai) who attacks Asuma (Itachi) with a B-rank Katon (Genjutsu) and Asuma (Itachi) uses a Katon (genjutsu) counter, say an extinguishing (reversal) jutsu, that extinguishes (reverses) the katon (genjutsu). Can we now use that as an example that Asuma could use that same extinguishing jutsu to counter amaterasu?

It isn't that a B-rank katon = amaterasu, it's "will a jutsu used to counter a B-rank katon be accepted as valid in countering amaterasu"?

This example is simply an extension of the logic used in a no limits fallacy. I am trying to see if the Itachi supporters would support a similar example if it were against Itachi instead of for.

Either their belief was wrong, or you missed something:

Dojutsu =/= Genjutsu. Dojutsu are eye techniques. They don't have to be Genjutsu for this to be true.

Whether the frogs were correct in their assumption of what Pein was capable of isn't relevant to my point.

The frogs believed that Pein was capable of the most powerful eye techniques in the entire world. That statement would encompass sharingan techniques and dispelling techniques. This is important.

Now regardless of Pein's actual capability that is what they believed. This implies they also believed their frog song to be immune or impossible to dispell with the world's most powerful eye techniques if they believed it to be a certain win against Pein. because they believed he was capable of such techniques.

[Maximus]

He could stab himself in the ears, but probably he'd die too.

I don't know why u ppl are worried about frog song. It takes long time and it gives away the user's location right away. Now i would assume Ma-Pa are going to be closing thier eyes while they are singing so no one gets genjutsed. But that leaves Jiraiya alone. From there on Itachi can just cast some type of genjutsu(finger genjutsu?) and then force jiraiya to look in his eyes then bam tsukiyomi.

example here...http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/07/

After Naruto got genjutsed Itachi was forcing him to look into his eyes again at that time he couldn't have casted tsukiyomi to end it but he didn't due to lack of chakra.
Itachi can also over power his normal genjutsus as shown in later pages.

or, he can just cast Amaterasu burning everything or susanoo...

Frog Song would be bad choice for Jiraiya IMO.

[Jυstin]

While the Frog Song has a rank that can be measured, "魔幻・鏡天地転" - "Magen: Kyōten Chiten" - "Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change" is not a rank jutsu. It's a Kekkei Genkai-ranked Genjutsu counter. It's not the same case with Asuma in that example.

Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change

Name: Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change (魔幻・鏡天地転, Magen: Kyōten Chiten; Literally meaning "Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change")
Type: Kekkei genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
Users: Itachi Uchiha

Using the Sharingan's jutsu-copying abilities, the user can turn any genjutsu back onto its original user.

Of course, Tsukuyomi is not just ANY Genjutsu. No one's placing the frog song on its level. Then again...could that be how Sasuke escaped it? Nothing is stating this, but the fact remains that Frog Song is still on a normal Genjutsu tier level.

[Grimmjowsensei]

You are completely missing the point.

I'll give you an example.

Hypothetically say we have Asuma fight another ninja who attacks Asuma with a B-rank Katon and Asuma uses a Katon counter, say an extinguishing jutsu, that extinguishes the katon. Can we now use that as an example that Asuma could use that same extinguishing jutsu to counter amaterasu?



Care to remember Jiraiya's comment on Amaterasu? "a frog that breathes fire got his internal organs burnt". (I am pretty sure that Jiraiya's frogs use the highest level of Katon) Amaterasu is already in a different league, thats why I am saying comparing Katon and Amaterasu is irrelevant.

If you really want to associate this to any Ninjutsu counter as an example, try rasengan vs Chidori, we had seen them nullify each other, but would chidori nullify ultimate rasengan too ? I don't know, highly unlikely. Maybe Kirin would.

But you see this is a different case. Sharingan allows Itachi to see through all ninjutsu and genjutsu, and his genjutsu skills allow him to dispell or counter it. I mean comparing Ninjutsu and genjutsu in that manner doesn't really help this argument, it even makes it more complicated.

[ShinAkuma]

While the Frog Song has a rank that can be measured, "魔幻・鏡天地転"

When was Frog song assigned a rank?

Originally Posted by Databooks
Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change
From Narutopedia
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* Name: Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change (魔幻・鏡天地転, Magen: Kyōten Chiten; Literally meaning "Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change")
* Type: Kekkei genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
* Users: Itachi Uchiha

Using the Sharingan's jutsu-copying abilities, the user can turn any genjutsu back onto its original user.

If the counter uses the sharingan's jutsu copying ability, doesn't that mean it could not counter jutsus that aren't copyable?

FYI unranked jutsus simply mean they are unique, either bloodline related or some other way. It isn't a direct indication of power.

[ShinAkuma]

Care to remember Jiraiya's comment on Amaterasu? "a frog that breathes fire got his internal organs burnt". (I am pretty sure that Jiraiya's frogs use the highest level of Katon) Amaterasu is already in a different league, thats why I am saying comparing Katon and Amaterasu is irrelevant.

It is the exact same example as the sharingan genjutsu counter, just swapped out the genjutsus for katons.

However it is fairly obvious that Frog song is also in a different league than most other genjutsus considering it was called a sure win.

[Truepotential]

Itachi isn't dispelling Frog Song for shit, against Kurenai he said genjutsu of that level won't affect him, this means that he's not immune to genjutsu, only genjutsu of that level or lower.

Frog song makes Kurenai's genjutsu worse than fodder.

[ShinAkuma]

Itachi isn't dispelling Frog Song for shit, against Kurenai he said genjutsu of that level won't affect him, this means that he's not immune to genjutsu, only genjutsu of that level or lower.

Frog song makes Kurenai's genjutsu worse than fodder.

I've pointed out that exact same thing about 3 times now.

Good luck getting them to listen.

[Kai]

Regarding Frog song, Jiraiya will need to prep twice before the attack, that is too glorious a luxury by battledome standard.

Drop the act, Frog song isn't even coming into fruition(against an opponent like Itachi, at least).

[Grimmjowsensei]

It is the exact same example as the sharingan genjutsu counter, just swapped out the genjutsus for katons.

However it is fairly obvious that Frog song is also in a different league than most other genjutsus considering it was called a sure win.


No it is not the same example. We have seen strongest katon was obliterated by Amaterasu in less than a second.(Sasuke's grand fireball). So we know Amaterasu is in a different league and cannot be countered by any type of Katon.

It would be the same example only if it was stated that frog song was above all other genjutsu that we had seen so far.

Itachi and Sasuke, saw through and countered each others genjutsu simultaneously. Another significant evidence that Itachi can counter high level genjutsus.

[ShinAkuma]

No it is not the same example. We have seen strongest katon was obliterated by Amaterasu in less than a second.(Sasuke's grand fireball). So we know Amaterasu is in a different league and cannot be countered by any type of Katon.

Are you even reading what I am saying? I am not saying amaterasu will be countered by a katon. I am saying that a jutsu capable of countering a b-rank katon should be considered a viable counter to amaterasu.

It would be the same example only if it was stated that frog song was above all other genjutsu that we had seen so far.

What other genjutsus have been stated to be a certain win?

Itachi and Sasuke, saw through and countered each others genjutsu simultaneously. Another significant evidence that Itachi can counter high level genjutsus.

Where the genjutsus they were using higher than B-rank?

[Jυstin]

Itachi isn't dispelling Frog Song for shit, against Kurenai he said genjutsu of that level won't affect him, this means that he's not immune to genjutsu, only genjutsu of that level or lower.

Frog song makes Kurenai's genjutsu worse than fodder.

This would be somewhat applicable if you could say that Kurenai's Genjutsu-level was the limit of which he could counter.

Are you even reading what I am saying? I am not saying amaterasu will be countered by a katon. I am saying that a jutsu capable of countering a b-rank katon should be considered a viable counter to amaterasu.

For this to be true, it would first have to be true that a B-rank katon was the limit that Amaterasu could counter.

To you, apparently, a stick can block a sword because both are able to pierce paper.

What other genjutsus have been stated to be a certain win?

Tsukuyomi, for one.

Where the genjutsus they were using higher than B-rank?

Were they lower?

[ShinAkuma]

This would be somewhat applicable if you could say that Kurenai's Genjutsu-level was the limit of which he could counter.

Which is where the no limits fallacy comes in.

The original:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

Altered for context:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a Itachi can easily withstand an attack from a B-rank genjutsu, one might illogically conclude that Itachi could withstand attacks from an unlimited number of B-rank genjutsus at the same time, or that he could withstand an attack of a similar nature (genjutsu) that was much more powerful.

For this to be true, it would first have to be true that a B-rank katon was the limit that Amaterasu could counter.

Why?

I suspect the example has gone over your head.

Tsukuyomi, for one.

Actually it hasn't, but it has been held in the highest regard.

Were they lower?

I'm asking you.

In order for you to use them as an example of being evidence of Itachi countering better than B-rank you would need to have some evidence or logic that they are higher than B-rank.

[Jυstin]

Which is where the no limits fallacy comes in.

The original:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a shield can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.

Altered for context:

The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a Itachi can easily withstand an attack from a B-rank genjutsu, one might illogically conclude that Itachi could withstand attacks from an unlimited number of B-rank genjutsus at the same time, or that he could withstand an attack of a similar nature (genjutsu) that was much more powerful.

It's not a no limits fallacy since I didn't say Itachi has no limits. I was pointing out the fallacy of placing limits on a jutsu that has not had its limits stated.

Why?

I suspect the example has gone over your head.

You said that Amaterasu can be countered by a jutsu that can counter a B-ranked katon. You don't know how full of holes that is apparently.

Actually it hasn't, but it has been held in the highest regard.

Actually, it has.

In order for you to use them as an example of being evidence of Itachi countering better than B-rank you would need to have some evidence or logic that they are higher than B-rank.

Hey, I was only pointing out that you can't say they are lower than B-rank any more than I can say they are higher than B-rank. Don't shift this on me.

[ShinAkuma]

It's not a no limits fallacy since I didn't say Itachi has no limits. I was pointing out the fallacy of placing limits on a jutsu that has not had its limits stated.

As far as we know the limit is a B-rank katon. We cannot assume it should do better (considering what Itachi said "genjutsu of this level has no effect on me") unless otherwise demonstrated.

[Jυstin]

As far as we know the limit is a B-rank katon. We cannot assume it should do better (considering what Itachi said "genjutsu of this level has no effect on me") unless otherwise demonstrated.

No, we know that a B-ranked is not enough.

[Truepotential]

He could stab himself in the ears, but probably he'd die too.


Itachi has no knowledge of Frog Song nor the jutsus Jiraiya can use in Hermit Mode.

Pein didn't know about it, why didn't he stab his ears out eh?

[ShinAkuma]

No, we know that a B-ranked is not enough.

I meant to say B-rank genjutsu.

You said that Amaterasu can be countered by a jutsu that can be counter a B-ranked katon. You don't know how full of holes that is apparently.

Actually I do. That is the point.

Example:

You said that Frog song can be countered by a jutsu that can be counter a B-ranked genjutsu. You don't know how full of holes that is apparently.

Actually, it has.

You're more than welcome to provide evidence that tsukiyomi has be said to be a certain win.

Hey, I was only pointing out that you can't say they are lower than B-rank any more than I can say they are higher than B-rank. Don't shift this on me.

You tried to claim they were high level genjutsus.

"Itachi and Sasuke, saw through and countered each others genjutsu simultaneously. Another significant evidence that Itachi can counter high level genjutsus."

[Grimmjowsensei]

Itachi has no knowledge of Frog Song nor the jutsus Jiraiya can use in Hermit Mode.

Pein didn't know about it, why didn't he stab his ears out eh?

hahah you really cracked me up, I was reading the above posts in all seriousness then I saw this.. rofl.

I was joking when I said that... Who in earth would stab himself in the ears...LOL

Sharingan can see through all Jutsu btw, he'd see the pattern emitted by the sound waves and realise that it is a genjutsu right away.

or he'd think, "wow those frogs can sing how cheerful:zaru"

[Truepotential]

hahah you really cracked me up, I was reading the above posts in all seriousness then I saw this.. rofl.

I was joking when I said that... Who in earth would stab himself in the ears...LOL

Sharingan can see through all Jutsu btw, he'd see the pattern emitted by the sound waves and realise that it is a genjutsu right away.


Well it's difficult to read sarcasm on the internet especially when this could be a potential way to avoid it.

...

Why didn't Kakashi see through Itachi's genjutsu?

Seeing through the Frog Song genjutsu won't help you escape its other effects paralyzing your mind and nerves.

[niyesuH]

the frogs were grasping for air.. they barely got to Pein let alone stand a guy like Itachi

[niyesuH]

Why didn't Kakashi see through Itachi's genjutsu?


is it not obvious? Itachi is the best when it comes to genjutsu.. maybe Madara is better.. but for now he is the best

[Jυstin]

I meant to say B-rank genjutsu.

Ah...well it still only tells us that a B-rank Genjutsu isn't enough. It didn't say that was its limit. I'm not removing its unknown limits.

Actually I do. That is the point.

Example:

You said that Frog song can be countered by a jutsu that can be counter a B-ranked genjutsu. You don't know how full of holes that is apparently.

If that were the case, I honestly would not have said that as an absolute. It says in the databook description that it can reverse ANY Genjutsu. The only Genjutsu that is above the norm is Tsukuyomi.

You're more than welcome to provide evidence that tsukiyomi has be said to be a certain win.

It was declared the most powerful Genjutsu, including over the Frog Song, which is "certain win".

You tried to claim they were high level genjutsus.

"Itachi and Sasuke, saw through and countered each others genjutsu simultaneously. Another significant evidence that Itachi can counter high level genjutsus."

I didn't say that, for one.

For two, you replied: Where the genjutsus they were using higher than B-rank?

Of course, no one can prove this. You would seem to have proved that they were lower or equal to B-rank because it can't be proven that they are higher.

I said: Were they lower?

I was doing this to counter your attempt at placing a level on their Genjutsu by stating that you don't know if they were higher or lower because while no one can prove that they're higher, you can't prove that they are lower.

[ShinAkuma]

So this is what you are referring to. You have a point. Though, when Itachi did this against Sasuke in the fight, the blood did not disappear. It was there even until he died. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/17/) I'm going to go with Itachi's example since we're not discussing his brother in this bout.

I'm referring to when Sasuke did it against Madara. Did you even look at the scans I linked to?

I didn't say Itachi was awesome....though both characters are. You're arguing that the frog song is like Tsukuyomi.

I would say they are of similar level.

Apparently, in this case for Jiraiya, it wasn't. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/17/)

His enemies came back to life. However Frog song still succeeded in allowing Jiraiya to kill his first batch of enemies.

Itachi has nothing to do with their claim against Pein,

But you are saying that because it failed against Pein (because he could resurrect) that it should/could fail against Itachi, who can't resurrect.

You were talking about an association fallacy...well there you go.

By any case, trying to continue with this argument is pointless

Already handled these points in my other post.

And while performing the jutsu, his right hand was occupied by shuriken.

No he performed the jutsu and then pulled out the shurikens.

If you believe Itachi can do one handed jutsus feel free to take a poll or confirm with somebody else.

That's not what they were talking about. They said, "There's no way we'll lose." not, "He's not breaking out of it."

If they are talking about frog song being their most potent genjutsu and that if it succeeds they cannot lose that means they don't think it can be broken.

My point was because I SAY, THINK, or BELIEVE something, like your analogy or the frogs' words, it doesn't make it true.

You understand this applies to anything said on Itachi's behalh as well?

Just because Itachi SAYS, THINKS, or BELIEVES tsukiyomi is unbeatable doesn't make it true.

That jutsu must have taken a while to come into effect. Still, that's YOUR assumption. Neither of us can prove one to be more right than the other

Except for the tiny little fact that one handed seals were unique to Haku.

In my logic, all I did was change the subjects and situation that was used in your logic. I didn't take it out of proportion.

But you didn't. That is the problem.

[Jυstin]

I'm referring to when Sasuke did it against Madara. Did you even look at the scans I linked to?

No, but this is Itachi, who's blood remained when in part one, it didn't. I'm not sure what this proves anyway.

I would say they are of similar level.

Many would argue that. It did nothing more than paralyze Pein. This is something Itachi did to Orochimaru as a tyke.

His enemies came back to life. However Frog song still succeeded in allowing Jiraiya to kill his first batch of enemies.

This is about the frogs claims that they would not lose. They were sorely wrong. I don't take what they say as law, unlike other followers.

But you are saying that because it failed against Pein (because he could resurrect) that it should/could fail against Itachi, who can't resurrect.

I am saying that Itachi can't NOT break out just because Pein couldn't. Itachi can't resurrect while Pein's eyes, to our knowledge, can't counter Genjutsu, nor is he a Genjutsu master.

No he performed the jutsu and then pulled out the shurikens.

If you believe Itachi can do one handed jutsus feel free to take a poll or confirm with somebody else.

If you believe he performed the jutsu and then pulled out the shurikens, feel free to take a poll or confirm with somebody else.

See what I did there? I just showed you that neither of our claima are absolutes since both are possible.





If they are talking about frog song being their most potent genjutsu and that if it succeeds they cannot lose that means they don't think it can be broken.

Yeah....since when do we take what any shinobi thinks as fact? Especially when their thoughts have been wrong in the past.

You understand this applies to anything said on Itachi's behalh as well?

Just because Itachi SAYS, THINKS, or BELIEVES tsukiyomi is unbeatable doesn't make it true.

I recognize this, and also the part where Tsukuyomi is the most powerful Genjutsu. Itachi has more ground to stand on then these frogs.

Except for the tiny little fact that one handed seals were unique to Haku.

Where does it say only Haku can utilize this?

But you didn't. That is the problem.

No, I did, and I don't care if you think otherwise.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Why didn't Kakashi see through Itachi's genjutsu?


Which one ?


Seeing through the Frog Song genjutsu won't help you escape its other effects paralyzing your mind and nerves.

Its all about Chakra flow, If you get a hold of it, its not a problem. For example Kurenai's genjutsu was also a paralyzing type which we know wtfpwned Kisame but didn't work on Itachi, because he had seen through it from the beginning.

[ShinAkuma]

Ah...well it still only tells us that a B-rank Genjutsu isn't enough. It didn't say that was its limit. I'm not removing its unknown limits.

As far as we can tell, B-rank is what he can counter until shown otherwise. To apply that counter to higher level is a no limits fallacy.

That counter is only applicable against B-rank genjutsus that can be copied at this point.

If that were the case, I honestly would not have said that as an absolute. It says in the databook description that it can reverse ANY Genjutsu. The only Genjutsu that is above the norm is Tsukuyomi.

The databook says it can counter any copyable genjutsus. Obviously unique or bloodline related stuff would be immune to sharingans copy abilities and thus bypass the counter.

It was declared the most powerful Genjutsu,

Where?

I didn't say that, for one.

My bad. However if you didn't believe the point grimmjow was making why did you pick it up?

For two, you replied: Where the genjutsus they were using higher than B-rank?

I certainly did.

Of course, no one can prove this.

I know. That was the point.

You would seem to have proved that they were lower or equal to B-rank because it can't be proven that they are higher.

No. I am saying that they cannot be used as an example of better than B-rank because nothing indicates the level of genjutsu being used.

I'm not saying they are low level, I'm say we don't know with nothing to indicate what level they could possibly be.

I said: Were they lower?

I don't know. That is the point.

[Jυstin]

As far as we can tell, B-rank is what he can counter until shown otherwise. To apply that counter to higher level is a no limits fallacy.

That counter is only applicable against B-rank genjutsus that can be copied at this point.

It's still a fallacy to believe that is all he can counter. With that...you could say that Jiraiya's frog song is limited to only working against non-Genjutsu masters since the target in question, until shown otherwise, is no master.

We don't know if the Frog Song is above B-rank either. Nothing suggesting that at all. And for the record, even if it can't be reversed, that isn't the same as being seen-through.

The databook says it can counter any copyable genjutsus. Obviously unique or bloodline related stuff would be immune to sharingans copy abilities and thus bypass the counter.

You added a word there.

Where?

It was stated flat-out. "The left side of Mangekyou eye possesses the strongest Genjutsu while the right side of Mangekyou eye possesses the strongest Ninjutsu." (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/)

No matter what anyone says or tries, this isn't changing.

My bad. However if you didn't believe the point grimmjow was making why did you pick it up?

I couldn't believe either point, actually.

No. I am saying that they cannot be used as an example of better than B-rank because nothing indicates the level of genjutsu being used.

I'm not saying they are low level, I'm say we don't know with nothing to indicate what level they could possibly be.



I don't know. That is the point.

What we don't know 100% is:

The success of Frog Song against Pein vs. against Itachi.
The absolute highest level that Itachi's Sharingan can counter up to.
The Frog Song's level.
The Sharingan's ability to at least see through the Frog Song.
The level of the Uchiha fight's Genjutsu.
Whether Itachi can perform one-handed seals or if he performed the jutsu before he pulled the shuriken.

We can't know because some have missing information while others have multiple conclusions. You can only make an absolute when it is, in fact, absolute.

We really shouldn't argue these points as if we know for certain.