Kakashi w/o Sharingan vs Kidoumaru

[Vangelis]

This fight is located in the Forrest of Death.

Fight Set Up

Kidoumaru: It begins with an ambush by Kidoumaru while hidden in the trees. He plans on fighting serious since Kakashi is a well known ninja and will not chance playing around. He goes CS2 right before the ambush.

Kakashi: Is standing in the open on the grass. He suspects trouble and starts to remove his head band protector from his sharingan eye. Just as he fully pulls the head band away from his sharingan eye, Kidoumaru's harden web arrow grazes it.

The fight starts with Kidoumaru hidden in the trees, while Kakashi is trying to take cover with his injury and is without use of the sharingan.

Who wins?

[Gary]

kakashi wins is ay he anti a jounin to nothing

[forgotten_hero]

Hmm...probably Kakashi. The only problem would be dealing with the pain, but he's no stranger to pain. After all, when Obitio was still alive, he managed to keep on fighting after his eye was slashed. And that was when he was what, 12 years old?

[Vangelis]

I actually would say Kidoumaru. Without Kakashi's sharingan how else will he predict Kidoumaru's attacks. Remember Kidoumaru is a distance fighter and has guided aim when shooting his harden web arrows. Plus Kakashi is only fighting with one eye and dosent quite know were his opponent is.

[Law]

Well, Kido wins because the arrow that pierced Kakashi's eye also pierced his skull and brain.

Ambushes are fun.

But, instead...if we just want to give Kakashi the restriction that he can't use sharingan against Kido - then Kakashi wins. His arsenal beats the living shit out of Kido. Archers are not meant for 1v1 combat, and Kakashi is a mid-range support class. The absolute best type for combatting long-range fragile archers.

Kakashi has learned approximately 1000 jutsu, and good luck having Kido shoot the real Kakashi - he's also very good at using KB. All Kakashi needs to do is pick up a spent arrow, have his dogs incapacitate Kido, and Raikiri him in the face for bothering him and ruining his day.

[eDyH]

This fight is located in the Forrest of Death.

Fight Set Up

Kidoumaru: It begins with an ambush by Kidoumaru while hidden in the trees. He plans on fighting serious since Kakashi is a well known ninja and will not chance playing around. He goes CS2 right before the ambush.

Kakashi: Is standing in the open on the grass. He suspects trouble and starts to remove his head band protector from his sharingan eye. Just as he fully pulls the head band away from his sharingan eye, Kidoumaru's harden web arrow peirces it.

The fight starts with Kidoumaru hidden in the trees, while Kakashi is trying to take cover with his injury and is without use of the sharingan.

Who wins?

Kakashi is dead the moment the fight begins.

[Law]

Kakashi is dead the moment the fight begins.

I win, and by effect - you lose.


...Loser.

[eDyH]

My post had superior fonts.

Learn to debate...


...Loser.


Edit:

Ontopic- Did you guys know that Kidoumaru has SIX arms? That could possibly factor into this fight in some way. Possibly.

[Vangelis]

Lol well what i meant was not exactly peirce but some how damaged the sharingan where it cant be used. You could say the arrow grazed it or slightly made contact with Kakashi sharingan that made it unusable.

[Distracted]

Assuming that Kakashi is find except for the Eye than he will use his superior intellect to counter Kidomaru with ease.

Kidomaru starts off with the upper hand as he is able to locate and attack Kakashi while staying hidden. However, Kakashi has 2 powerful abilities and one important piece of knowledge that will quickly give him the victory.

Because Kakashi is rather quick and cunning, as soon as he sees/hears the next arrow coming he will doton underground. The one location that Kidomaru can't hit. That's the first useful ability.

Kakashi will then use the second and most important ability that will allow him to win. Kage Bunshin. He will make one or maybe two Kage Bunshin and pop back up. He can then use his excellent tracking skills in conjunction with the kage bunshin knowledge transfer to track Kidomaru down.

Not to mention he now has a form of defending himself. Once he gets Kidomaru in close range, he wins.

Of course if Kidomaru summons his spider he'll give Kakashi more trouble than he's worth, but Kakashi can still pull a victory out.

[Vangelis]

Assuming that Kakashi is find except for the Eye than he will use his superior intellect to counter Kidomaru with ease.

Kidomaru starts off with the upper hand as he is able to locate and attack Kakashi while staying hidden. However, Kakashi has 2 powerful abilities and one important piece of knowledge that will quickly give him the victory.

Because Kakashi is rather quick and cunning, as soon as he sees/hears the next arrow coming he will doton underground. The one location that Kidomaru can't hit. That's the first useful ability.

Kakashi will then use the second and most important ability that will allow him to win. Kage Bunshin. He will make one or maybe two Kage Bunshin and pop back up. He can then use his excellent tracking skills in conjunction with the kage bunshin knowledge transfer to track Kidomaru down.

Not to mention he now has a form of defending himself. Once he gets Kidomaru in close range, he wins.

Of course if Kidomaru summons his spider he'll give Kakashi more trouble than he's worth, but Kakashi can still pull a victory out.

Yes but what about Kidamaru's shell or armor he has encoated on his skin. Even if Kakashi got close would he be able to penetrate it? I mean Neji's gentle fist didnt hardly have an effect against it and with out sharingan how will Kakashi be able to use chidori correctly?

[zabuza666]

Kido stomps so hard

[Distracted]

Yes but what about Kidamaru's shell or armor he has encoated on his skin. Even if Kakashi got close would he be able to penetrate it? I mean Neji's gentle fist didnt hardly have an effect against it and with out sharingan how will Kakashi be able to use chidori correctly?

That armor is one of Kidomaru's more underrated abilities, however, it is made of chakra and was a natural counter to the Jyuuken. That is different from say.. the Raikiri.

Plus there is the matter of Kakashi using his Doton ability to trap Kidomaru mostly under ground and just killing him from there.

And through all of this I never even mentioned the nin-dogs.

[Satsuki569]

Kakashi would take this with no problem.

[PisOgPapir]

Kakashi would have a little difficulty with this. Kidomaru could have set up alot of traps, nothing prevents him from firing up a spider summon, at the start of the battle, plus his kunai traps. Kakashi could doton away from the Kunai, but the spiders would begin to be a problem, following him in his doton tunnels.

If Kidomaru stays up in the trees, he might be able to kill Kakashis nin-dogs with traps, and/or arrows before they accurately manage to spot him. Kakashi will now have the advantage, and he will eventually pull off a win, but Kido is going to give him a good fight.

[.Nagato.]

Kidou wins this :pek

[Nightmare]

Kakashi barely wins this ... Kidomaru is a great longe range fighter so kakashi manging to hit him will be hard ... but he would get him eventually

[Itachi's Apprentice 3]

Kakashi easily he became a jounin at a young age even before getting the Sharingan.

[Teach]

He would've been better off without sharingan.

[scooterken]

i think kidoumaru takes this

[Rated R Superstar]

Kakashi is dead the moment the fight begins.

Kido is a deadman, because despite the fact that kakashi cant use his sharigan, he still has all of the jutsu memorized.

[Elite Uchiha]

Kido wins....

Dont think Kakashi can survive this

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35264

[Alex]

Kakashi would win this with some difficulty

[.Nagato.]

Dont think Kakashi can survive this

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35264

Agreed. neji only survived because it didnt hit a vital spot because of his byakugan

[Shoddragon]

raikri and chidori are gone in this fight. no sharingan means tunnel vision which = chidori or raikiri NOT hitting. things like goukakyuu no jutsu are good for this fight but even with his intellect, kakashi lacks anything accurate enough without his sharingan to be effective against kidomaruo. Kido wins this.

[Law]

Dont think Kakashi can survive this

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35264

Kakashi is too smart to get hit by that. Kido would end up putting his arrows through wood blocks and bunshins.

Not to mention that if Kakashi needed to he has an endless supply of jutsu that could easily screen Kido's vision. You can't hit what you can't see...even at 100% accuracy.

Kakashi is far too intelligent to be beaten by Kido. And as for you Elite...eventually your bitterness will become even too annoying for you. Once again...and please, let this sink in: An archer with a team to put him in the right positions can kill almost anyone. An archer alone can kill almost no one 1v1. Kido is incredibly vulnerable here, even WITH the ambush.

[Vangelis]

Kakashi is too smart to get hit by that. Kido would end up putting his arrows through wood blocks and bunshins.

Not to mention that if Kakashi needed to he has an endless supply of jutsu that could easily screen Kido's vision. You can't hit what you can't see...even at 100% accuracy.

Kakashi is far too intelligent to be beaten by Kido. And as for you Elite...eventually your bitterness will become even too annoying for you. Once again...and please, let this sink in: An archer with a team to put him in the right positions can kill almost anyone. An archer alone can kill almost no one 1v1. Kido is incredibly vulnerable here, even WITH the ambush.

Yes, Kakashi is very smart but Kido is also a strategist. Kido excels at finding his opponents vulnerabilities and strengths. With Kakashi's sharingan gone and his lack of knowing who or where his opponent is, I just dont see him winning. The only way for Kakashi to win is to kill Kido immediately because if the fight drags on the more its going to be in Kido's favor. Why? Because by that time Kido would have read Kakashi like a book and the fight would be pretty much be over.

Yes Kakashi was a jounin before he had sharingan but lately he's been relying on it to much and would probably lose his edge without it. Mabe if he fought more without his sharingan I would change my decision but thats not the case. Kido would quickly find Kakashi vulnerability and use it against him.

[Elite Uchiha]

Kakashi is too smart to get hit by that. Kido would end up putting his arrows through wood blocks and bunshins.

Not to mention that if Kakashi needed to he has an endless supply of jutsu that could easily screen Kido's vision. You can't hit what you can't see...even at 100% accuracy.

Kakashi is far too intelligent to be beaten by Kido. And as for you Elite...eventually your bitterness will become even too annoying for you. Once again...and please, let this sink in: An archer with a team to put him in the right positions can kill almost anyone. An archer alone can kill almost no one 1v1. Kido is incredibly vulnerable here, even WITH the ambush.

Are you kidding me? Please explain what Kakashi could do to stop this.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Kakashi rapes kido while reading icha icha tactics.. come on.. Kido is konoha genin level..

[sworder]

Kakashi rapes. All the Sound 4 almost get pwned by two weak jounins. Kakashi can kill any of them without sharingan.

[Shoddragon]

1. not exactly sure what I posted to be considered spam or flamebait ( perhaps distracted can pm me what I said?) but whatever.

2. people are not exactly explaining how kakashi can win. simply saying kakashi wins without an explanation isn't helping, and two of his most effective jutsu, raikiri and chidori, are rendered useless without his sharingan.

kido's war bow is more than enough to deal with kakashi. the spider summon, small spiders with webs, kido's own webbing, and his armor should be enough to stop

[Grimmjow]

kakashi i say .

[Rated R Superstar]

1. not exactly sure what I posted to be considered spam or flamebait ( perhaps distracted can pm me what I said?) but whatever.

2. people are not exactly explaining how kakashi can win. simply saying kakashi wins without an explanation isn't helping, and two of his most effective jutsu, raikiri and chidori, are rendered useless without his sharingan.

kido's war bow is more than enough to deal with kakashi. the spider summon, small spiders with webs, kido's own webbing, and his armor should be enough to stop

Well, Kakashi has superior speed to Kido. He has his summons. He's also smarter than Kido when it comes to battle. Kakashi should be able to use raikiri, i dont understand how him not being able to use sharigan, means he cant use it. Not to mention he has excellent taijutsu.

[Esponer]

Kakashi defeats Kidōmaru with absolute ease, here. If he did not have his Sharingan disabled for the purposes of this fight, he would still not even use it against Kidōmaru: Kakashi uses the Sharingan for mid-jōnin at the least, I would imagine. The Sharingan is not even necessary here.

Kidōmaru could not ambush Kakashi, but I'll assume here that somehow he has and that Kakashi has someone had his eye injured but is obvious fine. He will replace himself with a kage bunshin faster than Kidōmaru can perceive and send the real version of himself underground. Kidōmaru will play with the kage bunshin and find it extremely difficult to even hit, because Kakashi being a jōnin is in an entirely different league to Kidōmaru. It would take Kidōmaru's most accurate kumo senkyū: susaku to even hit Kakashi's kage bunshin, and in the forested setting Kakashi will just assassinate Kidōmaru with a kunai: Kidōmaru won't even know that it's coming to activate nenkin no yoroi.

Kage bunshin, doton: dochū eigyo, kunai. Over.

[TWF]

Is that before or after Kakashi doesn't get the chance to use a Kage Bunshin and is trapped in Kidoumaru's chakra webs?

[Esponer]

Is that before or after Kakashi doesn't get the chance to use a Kage Bunshin and is trapped in Kidoumaru's chakra webs?
One would presume before, seen as he would not be performing kage bunshin in that scenario. Furthermore, it is very likely to be 'before' seen as the scenario you're describing would not happen, and as such there would be no 'after'.

[TWF]

Not seen? Kakashi has a Byakugan? Kakashi can see a Kidoumaru who uses long-ranged attacks from nearly or more then a hundred meters off? Kakashi has a means to cut through his chakra webs or to deal with hundreds of small spider summons from Kidoumaru's boss summon?

[Esponer]

One would presume before, seen as he would not be performing kage bunshin in that scenario. Furthermore, it is very likely to be 'before' seen as the scenario you're describing would not happen, and as such there would be no 'after'.Not seen? Kakashi has a Byakugan? Kakashi can see a Kidoumaru who uses long-ranged attacks from nearly or more then a hundred meters off? Kakashi has a means to cut through his chakra webs or to deal with hundreds of small spider summons from Kidoumaru's boss summon?
The words "not seen" did not appear in the post you are quoting – I do not understand. In response to your next question, Kakashi possesses a Sharingan eye (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/12/naruto_v02_ch012_092/), not a Byakugan (also in this thread the Sharingan eye is not in effect). In the future, could you ask such questions elsewhere, such as in the conversation thread (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=312865)?

[PisOgPapir]

Esponer, stop playing mind games will ya? You perfectly well knew what he meant.
So, answer kthxbai.

EDIT:
On the request of our beloved moderator, i will rephrase english with esponer speak, so he might understand it:

How does Kakashi locate Kimimaro, How does he manage to spot Kidomaru, master of stealth, that even Nejis byakugan coukd not?
Kakashi has no means, which to escape from Kidomarus nets, or deal with his army of spider minions. How do you think he would deal with that?


There. All souped up in british so he gets it :LOS

[Esponer]

How does Kakashi locate Kimimaro, How does he manage to spot Kidomaru, master of stealth, that even Nejis byakugan coukd not?
Kakashi has no means, which to escape from Kidomarus nets, or deal with his army of spider minions. How do you think he would deal with that?
Thank you – I can understand those questions more easily (substituting Kimimaro for Kidōmaru).

Kidōmaru was able to remain unseen by Neji after a certain point because he realised that the Byakugan's penetrative, 2π sr vision had a specific range limit. He had effective attacks with ranges greater than that, and so Neji was disadvantaged and unable to locate Kidōmaru.

However, Kakashi has an extremely advanced sense of smell, and acute olfactory sense has a massive range advantage over other senses. Animals in real life with acute senses of smell, such as bears, can sense other creatures from a distance of miles through forests. Neji's penetrative, 2π sr vision may be superior to an acute sense of smell at providing details of an opponent within a 50 m radius, but it is inferior in locating the direction of an opponent at a range 50 m to several miles.

If you relate Kakashi's sense of smell to Kiba's (Part I) according to Naruto's statements in Part II, then Kakashi would irrefutably be able to smell Kidōmaru's general direction, and so long as he can do this and disappear from sight he should have no difficulty approaching Kidōmaru. Even if you do not make this relation (which I would be wary of making, as Naruto cannot make such qualitative statements on a skill he does not have), I believe it can be easily defended that Kakashi can detect foes in a forest over a reasonable distance by sense of smell.

Furthermore, he has doton: tsuiga for a more advanced sense of smell. The ninja dogs have an implied requirement to sniff an object with the target's scent, but applying real world reasoning tells us that this requirement exists so that they may distinguish one smell from many others. In a forest with only one other human being, there would be no need for this.

Lastly, we know that Kakashi can travel very quickly when he needs to. His use of doton: dochū eigyo has been very quick in the manga, and his shunshin in Part I was such that he could come in from nowhere and intercept the high-speed attacks of Naruto and Sasuke with ease – after Sasuke gained Rock Lee's speed and Naruto seemed to equal it.

Kakashi may or may not have a direct method of releasing himself from kumo shibari. What is more important is whether or not he could be caught, and I find that unlikely considering his reflexes, skill level, hand seal speed and use of kawarimi, bunshin and genjutsu. Further to this, raikiri could be effective in cutting the webs, and there is no requirement in the Battledome to restrict all players to only jutsu they have shown, so we may consider that he could have other useful jutsu in his arsenal.

Dealing with Kyodaigumo is rather easy for Kakashi, in fact – firstly, he only ever needs to disappear. Had Neji had better shunshin or doton: dochū eigyo, he would've found Kyodaigumo far less troubling. Kakashi is more stealthy than Kidōmaru, is faster, and can perform ninjutsu at a relatively lightning pace. In the time Kidōmaru takes to summon Kyodaigumo, Kakashi is underground and out of sight – and worse yet Kidōmaru probably doesn't realise thanks to a bunshin left.

If he needs to fight Kyodaigumo or the spiders directly (he doesn't), Kakashi has the single best jutsu for it. First, see the spiders (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/195/07/), and see Kyodaigumo.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/naruto_v02_ch015_162/

[PisOgPapir]

Ah, Kimi and Kido, those always get mixed up for me.
Esponer strikes again!
I think you're overestimating Kakashi a little bit, but esentially, your little essay is correct.

[HumanWine]

Kido stomps Kakashi hard. Thier is literally nothing Kakashi could do to stomp Kido from winning.

[Esponer]

Kido stomps Kakashi hard. Thier is literally nothing Kakashi could do to stomp Kido from winning.
If you have a moment, seen as I put quite a few minutes into that last post explaining how I thought Kakashi had everything he needed for this fight, could you expand on your opinion?

I know that my opinion on the 'size' of the tier gaps is a big bigger than most, but surely Kakashi is actually one of the better suited shinobi in jutsu and skills to face Kidōmaru?

[sworder]

Is it really that hard to believe Raikiri would break through the web? I don't see why people even bring that up. :oh

[HumanWine]

Thank you – I can understand those questions more easily (substituting Kimimaro for Kidōmaru).

Kidōmaru was able to remain unseen by Neji after a certain point because he realised that the Byakugan's penetrative, 2π sr vision had a specific range limit. He had effective attacks with ranges greater than that, and so Neji was disadvantaged and unable to locate Kidōmaru.

However, Kakashi has an extremely advanced sense of smell, and acute olfactory sense has a massive range advantage over other senses. Animals in real life with acute senses of smell, such as bears, can sense other creatures from a distance of miles through forests. Neji's penetrative, 2π sr vision may be superior to an acute sense of smell at providing details of an opponent within a 50 m radius, but it is inferior in locating the direction of an opponent at a range 50 m to several miles.

If you relate Kakashi's sense of smell to Kiba's (Part I) according to Naruto's statements in Part II, then Kakashi would irrefutably be able to smell Kidōmaru's general direction, and so long as he can do this and disappear from sight he should have no difficulty approaching Kidōmaru. Even if you do not make this relation (which I would be wary of making, as Naruto cannot make such qualitative statements on a skill he does not have), I believe it can be easily defended that Kakashi can detect foes in a forest over a reasonable distance by sense of smell.

Furthermore, he has doton: tsuiga for a more advanced sense of smell. The ninja dogs have an implied requirement to sniff an object with the target's scent, but applying real world reasoning tells us that this requirement exists so that they may distinguish one smell from many others. In a forest with only one other human being, there would be no need for this.

Lastly, we know that Kakashi can travel very quickly when he needs to. His use of doton: dochū eigyo has been very quick in the manga, and his shunshin in Part I was such that he could come in from nowhere and intercept the high-speed attacks of Naruto and Sasuke with ease – after Sasuke gained Rock Lee's speed and Naruto seemed to equal it.

Kakashi may or may not have a direct method of releasing himself from kumo shibari. What is more important is whether or not he could be caught, and I find that unlikely considering his reflexes, skill level, hand seal speed and use of kawarimi, bunshin and genjutsu. Further to this, raikiri could be effective in cutting the webs, and there is no requirement in the Battledome to restrict all players to only jutsu they have shown, so we may consider that he could have other useful jutsu in his arsenal.

Dealing with Kyodaigumo is rather easy for Kakashi, in fact – firstly, he only ever needs to disappear. Had Neji had better shunshin or doton: dochū eigyo, he would've found Kyodaigumo far less troubling. Kakashi is more stealthy than Kidōmaru, is faster, and can perform ninjutsu at a relatively lightning pace. In the time Kidōmaru takes to summon Kyodaigumo, Kakashi is underground and out of sight – and worse yet Kidōmaru probably doesn't realise thanks to a bunshin left.

If he needs to fight Kyodaigumo or the spiders directly (he doesn't), Kakashi has the single best jutsu for it. First, see the spiders (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/195/07/), and see Kyodaigumo.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/naruto_v02_ch015_162/
I cant think of anything right now...

Touche

Where were you in the Kakashi vs Boba thread in the OBD?

[Shoddragon]

If you have a moment, seen as I put quite a few minutes into that last post explaining how I thought Kakashi had everything he needed for this fight, could you expand on your opinion?

I know that my opinion on the 'size' of the tier gaps is a big bigger than most, but surely Kakashi is actually one of the better suited shinobi in jutsu and skills to face Kidōmaru?

apparently in this scenario the warbow made the sharingan eye unusable, however kakashi is definitely damaged as well besides his sharingan impairment.

and as a note to everyone, he cannot use chidori or raikiri because it REQUIRES the use of special eyes, such as the sharingan and byakugan, to use accurately. kakashi explained it gives you tunnel vision without it. GOOGLE image tunnel vision please. you'll find its far worse than you think.

as for kakashi winning, esponer is extremely overestimating kakashi's speed and use of kage bunshins. this is an enemy which kakashi has NO idea about. he won't immediately start using kage bunshins. obviously esponer is the kind of person who needs lots of proof and evidence to change or prove false his opinion, and I'll take a shot, but later. going to start my one piece tourney match.

[Esponer]

Kakashi goes into most of his fights with bunshin feints, unless the opponent's too fast and too upfront to let him do it. Mizu bunshin might be more reasonable, to be fair, but he'll use kage bunshin if he thinks he may have to go out of the effective range of mizu bunshin. Also, bear in mind this is a man who has just seen Kidōmaru's arrow: it just scratched him. He knows one of the most important powers of Kidōmaru right away and got a free survive from the scenario, so he'll know exactly how to go about countering this foe: and a bunshin is just what the situation requires.

About raikiri: Kakashi evolved it. It started as a jutsu that required a very fast charge, but since then he's used it many times standing completely still. He's also used it in a very toned down manner: against Kakuzu he did a raikiri chop that by any sense must have been a less powerful version, because otherwise it was a massive chakra waste. Kakashi doesn't need the Sharingan for all his uses of raikiri anymore, just the one with the highest overall attack power (full power, charge).

The only situation he'd be in where he uses raikiri is if somehow he was caught by kumo shibari, and we know he can use raikiri at a standstill in that position, and tunnel vision is no problem if he doesn't move. I'm not so keen on the idea of him in that position, I don't like it... it's dangerous for him, and raikiri could just not be enough. But I don't see him being caught.

And am I overestimating Kakashi's speed? I've said it before: Part I was carefully tier-protected, and so it's easy to forget just what a jōnin is. Don't forget that Kakashi covered a lot of metres in an instant to catch Naruto and Sasuke while Sasuke was in the middle of chidori. This was a Sasuke with Rock Lee's speed, this can't be a speed far below Kidōmaru. Jōnin speed tends to be a league above most of Part I, and Kakashi is a lot faster than most.

Question. Itachi could cast kage bunshin and step the real him back through it in the middle of close range combat against Sasuke faster than Sasuke could see. Sasuke first saw after it was already done. Is Itachi's hand seal speed above Sasuke's perception more than Kakashi's hand seal speed is above Kidōmaru's perception? ...Really?

[TWF]

Barring the fact that Kakashi's reaction speed is massively downgraded without the Sharingan, and there was no mentioning of any bodies of water to use offensive Suiton as long range techniques, Kakashi gets caught in Kidoumaru's chakra webs or bogged down by his Spider Summons webs and gets annihilated by a 120% arrow from CS Kidoumaru.

[Hamaru]

Kakashi still wins.

[Elite Uchiha]

Kido wins using the warbow with 120% accuracy.

Literally, Kakashi doesnt have 359% vision.

[sworder]

But he can smell Kidou and know where he is, and he already has knowledge of how he's being attacked.

[Matto-sama]

It'll be a tough fight but kakashi will pull through in the end.

[TWF]

But he can smell Kidou and know where he is, and he already has knowledge of how he's being attacked.

Kakashi can magically track someone hundreds of meters away from him before the attack in launched in a moment's notice?

[Esponer]

Kakashi can magically track someone hundreds of meters away from him before the attack in launched in a moment's notice?
We start with Kakashi being hit and not too badly injured. He now immediately know Kidōmaru's direction, and there's absolutely no way Kidōmaru can draw and shoot the next arrow before Kakashi disappears underground. Kidōmaru's arrows have pretty slow cool-down/activation time. Also, I don't believe Kidōmaru has ever demonstrated a range of hundreds of metres with his arrows.

[Elite Uchiha]

We start with Kakashi being hit and not too badly injured. He now immediately know Kidōmaru's direction, and there's absolutely no way Kidōmaru can draw and shoot the next arrow before Kakashi disappears underground. Kidōmaru's arrows have pretty slow cool-down/activation time. Also, I don't believe Kidōmaru has ever demonstrated a range of hundreds of metres with his arrows.

After Kakashi is hit, he will be dead.

[Esponer]

After Kakashi is hit, he will be dead.
That is going against the scenario. The scenario is that he was hit but only lost the function of his Sharingan eye, and is not dead.

[TWF]

Inane? Show me a scan from the manga of Kakashi detecting someone 50 meters or more out with a handicap of not having the Sharingan. Or better yet, tell me what Kakashi will do to free himself from a chakra web.

[Elite Uchiha]

O, didnt see the scenario, but Kido still wins

[Oldy]

Kidoumaru is so overrated it becomes funny.
All the 4 Sound together going CS2 immediately managed a win on 2 tired special jounin fodder who were out of chakra and who stated they would have won if they didn't start the fight already exhausted.
That's the difference of level here, there is no need for sharingan because it wouldn't even be a challenge.

[Esponer]

Inane? Show me a scan from the manga of Kakashi detecting someone 50 meters or more out with a handicap of not having the Sharingan. Or better yet, tell me what Kakashi will do to free himself from a chakra web.
The scenario begins with Kakashi having been attacked by Kidōmaru who is hiding in the forest and using his bow. It goes without saying that Kakashi starts the fight knowing he's against someone hiding quite a distance away, with a powerful bow attack, and he'll also know the general direction because he knows where the arrow came from.

He also, as I said, has a strong sense of smell, which is far more important here than vision. Kakashi has an effective radar on Kidōmaru's position over moderate distances, at least for the purposes of knowing his direction.

Kakashi has every reason at the start of the fight to go underground and leave something like a mizu bunshin or a kage bunshin in his place. By doing so, he basically checkmates Kidōmaru immediately: this is the move he is going to use. Kidōmaru then doesn't have a real target anymore.

As for the discussion of the chakra web, please read my previous posts. Also bear in mind that Kidōmaru is trying here to use his bow from a very long range at one moment, and at the next trying to use his kumo shibari. The two don't work together. The kumo shibari don't have that sort of range, nor will he be able to use that through a long distance in a forest. Trees are in the way.

[Elite Uchiha]

This is the scenario and Kido wins...

[TWF]

None of the Sound Four needed or used in the manga, CS2, they only used CS, no mentioning of the second stage was ever stated, shown or implied in the manga.

Really Esponer? Kakashi has the capacity to use Mizu Bunshins in the middle of forest? Or that Kidoumaru won't move after firing an arrow? Show me where after the Wave Country Arc where Kakashi uses a Mizu Bunshin without being by or near a body of water.

And last I checked, Kakashi isn't a master of tenkatsu points or chakra flows and I remember that Kidoumaru blasted apart trees with his arrows.

[eDyH]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/186/02/

[Nihonjin]

^There we go.
They needed CS2 and a 2 on 1 advantage to beat two tired Jounin fodder. Kakashi horribly stomps v_v

I don't understand these "Genin vs Jounin" threads, I thought the manga made it obvious that in pretty much every case such a matchup is HORRIBLE rape.

[Esponer]

Thanks, eDyH. You beat me to correcting that nonsense.

Kakashi will use whichever form of bunshi appropriate. Focusing on mizu bunshin is a form of irrelevant argument here. In Part II Kakashi can cast suiton: suijinheki without a water source, so he very well could be able to perform other similar Suiton ninjutsu without a water source now. Alternatively, he will use whatever form of bunshin he feels appropriate. Kage bunshin is clearly the best one for him to use.

Kidōmaru moving makes little difference, but I would still be interested to see if he moved between shooting against Neji. Kakashi's perception of his position based on the arrows is not what will let him track Kidōmaru: it is his sense of smell, and doton: tsuiga if he chooses.

[Oldy]

None of the Sound Four needed or used in the manga, CS2, they only used CS, no mentioning of the second stage was ever stated, shown or implied in the manga.
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume21big.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=27844

Really Esponer? Kakashi has the capacity to use Mizu Bunshins in the middle of forest?
You think there is too much water in a mizu bunshin compared to the suiton he used against Kakuzu? :amuse

[Elite Uchiha]

Kido has the advantage and rapes him.

[Vangelis]

This time though Kido has the advantage of surprise. Even though Kakashi could locate Kido after Kido fired the arrow, whats stopping Kido from relocating. It wouldnt be hard for him to move threw the trees without being noticed because the Forrest of Dealth is full of animals and man eating beast. Kakashi could easily mistake Kido for an animal. Kido is very stealth and even if Kakashi could smell, how does he know Kido's exact scent?

[Grimmjowsensei]

Kakashi summons nin dogs, they track down Kidomaru, Kakashi attacks with a speed that Kido cannot react to(there this huge jounin-genin gap between em interms of everything) and shoves a chidori through his face. Kakashi could take it arms tied behind his back, with a Kunai in his mouth believe it or not.

[eDyH]

Kido has the advantage and rapes him.

Why bother posting? :confused

[Oldy]

Seriously though I think way too many people look only at the abilities and forget who's using them. As if chuunin exam Neji would beat Gai because the juuken is better than the gouken...
I blame Distracted :pek

[TWF]

All I see is no limits fallacy arguments here.

" He can perform a Suiton, therefore he can perform Mizu Bunshins".

[eDyH]

Scans of Kakashi ever needing a water source to create a Mizubunshin would be cool.

"There was water off in the distance!" or "It was foggy!" don't quite cut it.

And, of course, if he can't make a Mizubunshin, he could always do what he's been doing since part 2 started and use a Kagebunshin.

[Elite Uchiha]

I still fair to see how Kakashi could survive this

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35264

[eDyH]

I still fair to see how Kakashi could survive this

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume22.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=35264

By not getting hit by it in the first place?

The first arrow he sees (the one that disables his Sharingan at the start of the fight) is going to do that too. I'd figure the damage that does would make it abundantly clear to Kakashi that he should do whatever he can to avoid being hit by the next one... maybe by going underground where Kidoumaru can't see him?

[TWF]

Scans of Kakashi ever needing a water source to create a Mizubunshin would be cool.

"There was water off in the distance!" or "It was foggy!" don't quite cut it.

And, of course, if he can't make a Mizubunshin, he could always do what he's been doing since part 2 started and use a Kagebunshin.

Its funny how he was standing on a body of water when fighting Itachi in Part I and using Mizu Bunshins. Or copying Zabuza's Mizu Bunshin technique while around a body of water.

Yet against Kakuzu and Hidan, no Kage Bunshins or Mizu Bunshins. Oh my. And please show me how Kakashi is going to deal with the Spider Summons or Kidoumaru's chakra webs.

[Soul Vibe]

Kage Bunshin + Dogs + Raikiri = Win

[Elite Uchiha]

Kakashi will be and pain and will get hit again..this time he stays down for good.

[eDyH]

Its funny how he was standing on a body of water when fighting Itachi in Part I and using Mizu Bunshins. Or copying Zabuza's Mizu Bunshin technique while around a body of water.

"While around a body of water"?

How did Kakashi use the body of water that was more than ten feet away from him to create a clone right where he was standing? Hydrokinesis?

Either way, this doesn't matter.

Kagebunshins > Mizubunshins

Yet against Kakuzu and Hidan, no Kage Bunshins or Mizu Bunshins. Oh my. And please show me how Kakashi is going to deal with the Spider Summons or Kidoumaru's chakra webs.

Massive speed advantage and the ability to travel underground.

[TWF]

What massive speed advantage? He's faster, but not enough to blitz, certainly not against someone who fought Neji. And Kidoumaru sits in trees, not on the ground itself. How would using the Earht: Head-Hunter technique make a difference in this scenario? Only thing that's going to happen is when he emerges, he gets caught in the Chakra Webs and incapicated.

[eDyH]

What massive speed advantage? He's faster, but not enough to blitz, certainly not against someone who fought Neji. And Kidoumaru sits in trees, not on the ground itself. How would using the Earht: Head-Hunter technique make a difference in this scenario? Only thing that's going to happen is when he emerges, he gets caught in the Chakra Webs and incapicated.

rofl.

Preskip Neji sets the bar for the speed of Konoha's Jounin now?

Kakashi is far beyond both of them, and even Neji was capable of blitzing Kidoumaru. Finding him was Neji's problem. Kakashi's sense of smell or his summons would allow him to locate Kidoumaru with ease.

The ability to go underground would make a difference in this scenario because, once Kakashi is underground and has left a bunshin of his choice in his place, Kidoumaru has no way to attack him or track his movements at all. If Kidoumaru can't track him, he won't know where he is going to come up, and he certainly wouldn't be able to instantly incapacitate him. Kidoumaru gets a kunai through the spine while he focuses on trying to attack Kakashi's bunshin with his bow, web, and summons all at the same time.

[Elite Uchiha]

You act as if this is going to happen before Kido gets his arrow off which arguably was one of the fastest attacks seen.

[eDyH]

You act as if this is going to happen before Kido gets his arrow off which arguably was one of the fastest attacks seen.

Indeed it is arguably one of the fastest attacks seen.

Very arguably.

It doesn't matter how fast the arrows move once he fires them. He's got to create a new one and take aim again as soon as this starts because he's already fired one off that missed. Kakashi could replace himself with a bunshin and doton underground or shunshin far beyond Kidoumaru's LOS with little effort in the second or two it would take him to nock up another arrow.

[Lord Genome]

WHat is the distance?

Cause with Kidos vision Kakashi isnt going to be able to easily get off a bushin. Not to mention Kakashi has to do this before he pulls out the spiral arrow.

[Vangelis]

Why do so many people think Kakashi would start out with Kage Bushins when he dosent even know what kind of opponent he's facing. The only knowledge Kakashi has is that his oppoent shoots arrows. Would a genius like Kakashi just assume his enemy is only a long range fighter. In the ninja world you just cant assume things, he could be fighting an all around fighter with S-class status. It is best to preserve your chakra because you never know when you might need it when you actually locate your opponent.

The first thing Kakashi would do is hide and try to gather information on his opponent which would be hard since his opponent is hidden also. So some say he would use kage bushins or use his sense of smell. Well first off it wouldnt be that easy since Kido isnt the only living thing in the Forrest and Kakashi dosent know Kido's exact scent. He could use Kage Bushins but Kakashi dosent have that kind of chakra capacity to be wasting it on Kage bushins this early in the fight, he isnt Naruto. Plus that plan has a flaw, the shadow clone jutsu isnt exactly a quiet jutsu to use and Kido would easily locate Kakashi if he attemps to use it in a forrest where things might tend to echo.

So how do you defeat an opponent you cant find and know nothing about. Kakashi could go underground and stay there but that would just be hiding not fighting. Remember in this fight Kakashi wants to locate his opposer and defeat him. Even if Kakashi uses nin dogs how would they help. Kido is hidden in the trees so it would nearly be impossible for the nin dogs to get close without making sounds. By the time the Nin dogs locate him they would be stuck in his web.

The argument of Kakashi's Sharingan concerning Chidori is out of the question if he cant even find where his foe is. All Kido has to do is summon his spiders to track down Kakashi while he has his War Bow up and ready. And if Kakashi actually does manages to get around thousands of spiders and one big spider he would most likely be low on chakra and stamina. Even if Kakashi dosent have to charge to use chidori you think Kido is just going to stand there waiting for him to strike?

The fight was over soon as Kido took away Kakashi's ability to use sharigan. If this wasnt a win or lose fight, in actuality Kakashi would probably try to find away to escape until he can gather more information.

Dont get me wrong Kakashi is a very skilled Ninja and higher skilled than Kidoumaru but the situation and the location of a fight can fill in the gap between ranks. This fight is based on gathering information and Kido has an edge when it comes to that.

[Elite Uchiha]

Why do so many people think Kakashi would start out with Kage Bushins when he dosent even know what kind of opponent he's facing. The only knowledge Kakashi has is that his oppoent shoots arrows. Would a genius like Kakashi just assume his enemy is only a long range fighter. In the ninja world you just cant assume things, he could be fighting an all around fighter with S-class status. It is best to preserve your chakra because you never know when you might need it when you actually locate your opponent.

The first thing Kakashi would do is hide and try to gather information on his opponent which would be hard since his opponent is hidden also. So some say he would use kage bushins or use his sense of smell. Well first off it wouldnt be that easy since Kido isnt the only living thing in the Forrest and Kakashi dosent know Kido's exact scent. He could use Kage Bushins but Kakashi dosent have that kind of chakra capacity to be wasting it on Kage bushins this early in the fight, he isnt Naruto. Plus that plan has a flaw, the shadow clone jutsu isnt exactly a quiet jutsu to use and Kido would easily locate Kakashi if he attemps to use it in a forrest where things might tend to echo.

So how do you defeat an opponent you cant find and know nothing about. Kakashi could go underground and stay there but that would just be hiding not fighting. Remember in this fight Kakashi wants to locate his opposer and defeat him. Even if Kakashi uses nin dogs how would they help. Kido is hidden in the trees so it would nearly be impossible for the nin dogs to get close wihtout making sounds. By the time the Nin dogs locate him they would be stuck in his web.

The argument of Kakashi's Sharingan concerning Chidori is out of the question if he cant even find where his foe is. All Kido has to do is summon his spiders to track down Kakashi while he has his War Bow up and ready. And if Kakashi actually does manages to get around thousands of spiders and one big spider he would most likely be low on chakra and stamina. Even if Kakashi dosent have to charge to use chidori you think Kido is just going to stand there waiting for him to strike?

The fight was over soon as Kido took away Kakashi's ability to use sharigan. If this wasnt a win or lose fight, in actuality Kakashi would probably try to find away to escape until he can gather more information.

Dont get me wrong Kakashi is a very skilled Ninja and higher skilled than Kidoumaru but the situation and the location of a fight can fill in the gap between ranks. This fight is based on gathering information and Kido has an edge when it comes to that.

Quote for the truth....its what I have been trying to say all along.

[John Connor]

Kakashi loses his sharingan then uses a log replacement to hide

how does Kidomaru find kakashi after he is hidden? if he uses spiders then kakashi sees where the spider originated from and uses his nindogs to gain the exact location

if Kakashi can hide from Itachi he can hide from some fodder sound ninja

2 low jounin said they could have beaten all of the Sound Four while the Sound Four used cs2. how does Kakashi compare to low jounin? he killed 50 without using his Sharingan during the chuunin exams

get a grip

[Elite Uchiha]

Kakashi uses PNJ which isnt allowed in the BD

[Vangelis]

Kakashi loses his sharingan then uses a log replacement to hide

how does Kidomaru find kakashi after he is hidden? if he uses spiders then kakashi sees where the spider originated from and uses his nindogs to gain the exact location
if Kakashi can hide from Itachi he can hide from some fodder sound ninja

2 low jounin said they could have beaten all of the Sound Four while the Sound Four used cs2. how does Kakashi compare to low jounin? he killed 50 without using his Sharingan during the chuunin exams

get a grip

Why would Kido stay in the same place where he summond the spiders? Anyway why would Kakashi send nin dogs when he dosent have an exact scent of the opponent.

(Im not exactly sure correct me if im worng) But remember in the Sasuke retreival arc he gave his nin dog the scent of Sasuke's head band or clothes so he could be able to locate Sasuke? If Kakashi sent his nin dogs, how would they know who the enemy is or who theyre actually looking for? They cant because there's to many scents in the forrest to go by.

[eDyH]

Why do so many people think Kakashi would start out with Kage Bushins when he dosent even know what kind of opponent he's facing. The only knowledge Kakashi has is that his oppoent shoots arrows. Would a genius like Kakashi just assume his enemy is only a long range fighter. In the ninja world you just cant assume things, he could be fighting an all around fighter with S-class status. It is best to preserve your chakra because you never know when you might need it when you actually locate your opponent.

The first thing Kakashi would do is hide and try to gather information on his opponent which would be hard since his opponent is hidden also. So some say he would use kage bushins or use his sense of smell. Well first off it wouldnt be that easy since Kido isnt the only living thing in the Forrest and Kakashi dosent know Kido's exact scent. He could use Kage Bushins but Kakashi dosent have that kind of chakra capacity to be wasting it on Kage bushins this early in the fight, he isnt Naruto. Plus that plan has a flaw, the shadow clone jutsu isnt exactly a quiet jutsu to use and Kido would easily locate Kakashi if he attemps to use it in a forrest where things might tend to echo.

So how do you defeat an opponent you cant find and know nothing about. Kakashi could go underground and stay there but that would just be hiding not fighting. Remember in this fight Kakashi wants to locate his opposer and defeat him. Even if Kakashi uses nin dogs how would they help. Kido is hidden in the trees so it would nearly be impossible for the nin dogs to get close without making sounds. By the time the Nin dogs locate him they would be stuck in his web.

The argument of Kakashi's Sharingan concerning Chidori is out of the question if he cant even find where his foe is. All Kido has to do is summon his spiders to track down Kakashi while he has his War Bow up and ready. And if Kakashi actually does manages to get around thousands of spiders and one big spider he would most likely be low on chakra and stamina. Even if Kakashi dosent have to charge to use chidori you think Kido is just going to stand there waiting for him to strike?

The fight was over soon as Kido took away Kakashi's ability to use sharigan. If this wasnt a win or lose fight, in actuality Kakashi would probably try to find away to escape until he can gather more information.

Dont get me wrong Kakashi is a very skilled Ninja and higher skilled than Kidoumaru but the situation and the location of a fight can fill in the gap between ranks. This fight is based on gathering information and Kido has an edge when it comes to that.

...long post.

I'm not sure if you're underestimating Kakashi or overestimating Kidoumaru, but Kakashi wouldn't have nearly as much trouble as you're suggesting here.

Using a single Kage Bunshin isn't going to have as horrible an impact on Kakashi's chakra as you seem to think. He'll know Kidoumaru's general location from the first shot (the one that takes out his Sharingan...somehow), and he'll see the crater it makes on the ground. He'll be switched out with a KB in no time.

The other scents of the forest aren't going to interfere... take Kiba in the Chuunin Exams, for example. He could distinctly smell other ninja from two entire kilometers away, and Kakashi's nose is said to be on par with his. Finding Kidoumaru through his scent would require very little effort on his part. Kakashi would still be able to track his every move.

What the hell are the spiders going to do to him? Try to spit on him while he moves passed or around them at speeds that they can't hope to react to?

The second Kakashi finds Kidou's location is the second he blitzes him or feints him or whatever he feels like doing to end his life.

Kakashi is way out of Kidoumaru's league.

Kakashi uses PNJ which isnt allowed in the BD

Bullshit.

Go find a real argument or don't bother posting.

[John Connor]

Why would Kido stay in the same place where he summond the spiders? Anyway why would Kakashi send nin dogs when he dosent have an exact scent of the opponent.

(Im not exactly sure correct me if im worng) But remember in the Sasuke retreival arc he gave his nin dog the scent of Sasuke's head band or clothes so he could be able to locate Sasuke? If Kakashi sent his nin dogs, how would they know who the enemy is or who theyre actually looking for? They cant because there's to many scents in the forrest to go by.
ARROW ARROW ARROW ARROW ARROW ARROW ARROW

[Vangelis]

...long post.

I'm not sure if you're underestimating Kakashi or overestimating Kidoumaru, but Kakashi wouldn't have nearly as much trouble as you're suggesting here.

Using a single Kage Bunshin isn't going to have as horrible an impact on Kakashi's chakra as you seem to think. He'll know Kidoumaru's general location from the first shot (the one that takes out his Sharingan...somehow), and he'll see the crater it makes on the ground. He'll be switched out with a KB in no time.

The other scents of the forest aren't going to interfere... take Kiba in the Chuunin Exams, for example. He could distinctly smell other ninja from two entire kilometers away, and Kakashi's nose is said to be on par with his. Finding Kidoumaru through his scent would require very little effort on his part. Kakashi would still be able to track his every move.

What the hell are the spiders going to do to him? Try to spit on him while he moves passed or around them at speeds that they can't hope to react to?

The second Kakashi finds Kidou's location is the second he blitzes him or feints him or whatever he feels like doing to end his life.

Kakashi is way out of Kidoumaru's league.



Bullshit.

Go find a real argument or don't bother posting.

First off if Kage bushin is such an effortless Jutsu that causes no big decrease in chakra then why dosent every ninja use it in there fighting tactics?

Second, if those spiders were so harmless why was neji wearing himself down trying to fend them off? Kakashi would have to do Katon just to keep them at bay which would take chakra, which he dosent have much of.

Third, I agree with your argument about Kakashi's ability to smell but your dodging some of the points ive made in my previous posts. Kido is not bound to one spot he is free to move throughout the forrest. Kakashi's a popular ninja and is well known through the Naruto world. Kido probably knows about Kakashi's ability to smell and would probably set up traps for what ever tries to pursue him.

Nin dogs arent highly intelligent and are only good at following scents. They would get trapped in Kido's web easily. And if Kiba nose is so good how come it took Akamaru to notice the sand nin in the forrest?

Plus Kido isnt like any other Nin, he has six arms and has spider like qualities. Kakashi probably couldnt seperate kido's scent from the other wild beats in the forrest.

And for the arrow, if Kakashi is in open range of an attack do you think he would stop to find the arrow that attacked him. No, he would first try to find somewhere that would conceal his identity which the majority of people think would be underground. Plus the arrow would be tainted with some of Kakashi's blood and even if he wipes it off im pretty sure the arrow dosent smell anything like kido's actual body since it was made from inside himself.

[eDyH]

First off if Kage bushin is such an effortless Jutsu that causes no big decrease in chakra then why dosent every ninja use it in there fighting tactics?

Most don't because it is a risk... but Kakashi uses it anyway, and he uses it effectively. If it was something he avoided using on powerful opponents, as you suggested, then he wouldn't have used it on Itachi.

Second, if those spiders were so harmless why was neji wearing himself down trying to fend them off? Kakashi would have to do Katon just to keep them at bay which would take chakra, which he dosent have much of.

Because Neji was a chuunin-level genin and Kakashi is a kage-level jounin.

He could just evade them.

Third, I agree with your argument about Kakashi's ability to smell but your dodging some of the points ive made in my previous posts. Kido is not bound to one spot he is free to move throughout the forrest. Kakashi's a popular ninja and is well known through the Naruto world. Kido probably knows about Kakashi's ability to smell and would probably set up traps for what ever tries to pursue him.

Kidoumaru may know of Kakashi's reputation... but I doubt that would extend to his ability to smell. It would probably be more along the lines of "Sharingan Kakashi has a Sharingan and 1000 techniques, omigawsh!"

Do you really think that Kakashi could fall for one of Kidou's traps...? :oh

Nin dogs arent highly intelligent and are only good at following scents. They would get trapped in Kido's web easily. And if Kiba nose is so good how come it took Akamaru to notice the sand nin in the forrest?

Kiba noticed their presence. Akamaru noticed that they were powerful.

Plus Kido isnt like any other Nin, he has six arms and has spider like qualities. Kakashi probably couldnt seperate kido's scent from the other wild beats in the forrest.

I really doubt that Kidoumaru's kekkei genkai extends to his scent...

[Vangelis]

Most don't because it is a risk... but Kakashi uses it anyway, and he uses it effectively. If it was something he avoided using on powerful opponents, as you suggested, then he wouldn't have used it on Itachi.


Because Neji was a chuunin-level genin and Kakashi is a kage-level jounin.

He could just evade them.



Kidoumaru may know of Kakashi's reputation... but I doubt that would extend to his ability to smell. It would probably be more along the lines of "Sharingan Kakashi has a Sharingan and 1000 techniques, omigawsh!"

Do you really think that Kakashi could fall for one of Kidou's traps...? :oh



Kiba noticed their presence. Akamaru noticed that they were powerful.



I really doubt that Kidoumaru's kekkei genkai extends to his scent...

Lol he fell for Naruto's eraser prank and he fell for a simple water clone replication in the Zabuza fight. Also do you really think Neji was in the same ranks as an average chunnin?

Zabuza would have beaten Kakashi if it wasnt for team 7 backing him up, Haku is stronger than Zabuza and Neji is strong enough to beat Haku.

Reason: Because Haku got owned by kyuubi naruto and yet Neji stood almost equal to Naruto when he had released the kyuubi chakra. It was only after Neji thought he beat Naruto that he actually lost. So you cant use Neji's ranking as an excuse.

With the issue of Kakashi's kage bushins, he already knew who and how strong his opponent was and he had never opposed Itachi by himself. He always had back up or other allied nin around.

And finally do you honestly think Kido smells human when in CS2? Lol with that fir on his body it probably sheilds his actual older and gives out a animal like smell.

[Nihonjin]

^You did NOT just suggest Neji is equal to Kakashi....

[Vangelis]

^You did NOT just suggest Neji is equal to Kakashi....

No, im just saying Neji isnt on an average chunin level and with Neji's Blood line and unique abilities he can avoid trouble alot easier than Kakashi can. But that has nothing to do with overall skill and strength. Kakashi is indeed far more skilled than Neji but kakashi would strungle alot more fending off all those spiders because he dosent have 360 degree sight or the ability to use juken.

[John Connor]

@ZabuzaDemonGod

your last couple of posts makes it very clear that you believe in radically different things than the rest of the forum and its clear you are grasping at straws

Kakashi couldnt use his Sharingan in Zabuza's mist so Kakashi used his nindogs to beat Zabuza

blind Kakashi > blind Zabuza

an S class ninja that Kakashi didnt need his Sharingan to beat

are you saying Kakashi would do worse against a roided out chunnin? Neji beat Kidoumaru with just taijutsu... what about the fact that 2 konoha jounin felt they could beat the Sound Four if they had full chakra? thats 2 Sound Four CS2 vs 1 Konoha Jounin and they felt confident that they would win

everything during the arc points to 2 Sound Four > 1 Konoha Jounin

nindogs smell the first arrow and Kidoumaru is done for. how fast do you think Kidoumaru could escape the battle? I dont even think hes strong enough to leave the forest alive even if he tried fleeing

[eDyH]

Lol he fell for Naruto's eraser prank and he fell for a simple water clone replication in the Zabuza fight. Also do you really think Neji was in the same ranks as an average chunnin?

The eraser prank was plot humor.

Simple water clone replication? Kakashi pulled a triple feint, and Zabuza only managed to top him because he pulled a quadruple feint. That fight had deeper tactics than any other fight I remember reading in the manga.

Neji is below the rank of the average chuunin. That's why he failed the exam.

Zabuza would have beaten Kakashi if it wasnt for team 7 backing him up,

He was only disadvantaged in the beginning of the fight because he had to protect them.

Haku is stronger than Zabuza and Neji is strong enough to beat Haku.

What the hell?

Haku is nowhere near Zabuza's level.

Reason: Because Haku got owned by kyuubi naruto and yet Neji stood almost equal to Naruto when he had released the kyuubi chakra. It was only after Neji thought he beat Naruto that he actually lost. So you cant use Neji's ranking as an excuse.

...and?

KN0 > Haku
Neji = KN0
Neji > Haku

Kakashi > Haku, Neji, and KN0 at the same time.

Neji's rank is meaningless. The level he fights at is not. His abilities put him around Chuunin level. Kakashi's abilities are enough to make him Hokage.

With the issue of Kakashi's kage bushins, he already knew who and how strong his opponent was and he had never opposed Itachi by himself. He always had back up or other allied nin around.

His opponent was one of the strongest people... ever.

He uses KBs in fights because he knows how to and because they work. There's really no reason to believe he wouldn't use one here.

And finally do you honestly think Kido smells human when in CS2? Lol with that fir on his body it probably sheilds his actual older and gives out a animal like smell.

He has no fur in CS2.

Hell yes I honestly believe that Kido smells human in CS2. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. You're really grasping here.

[Vangelis]

@ZabuzaDemonGod

your last couple of posts makes it very clear that you believe in radically different things than the rest of the forum and its clear you are grasping at straws

Kakashi couldnt use his Sharingan in Zabuza's mist so Kakashi used his nindogs to beat Zabuza

blind Kakashi > blind Zabuza

an S class ninja that Kakashi didnt need his Sharingan to beat

are you saying Kakashi would do worse against a roided out chunnin? Neji beat Kidoumaru with just taijutsu... what about the fact that 2 konoha jounin felt they could beat the Sound Four if they had full chakra? thats 2 Sound Four CS2 vs 1 Konoha Jounin and they felt confident that they would win

everything during the arc points to 2 Sound Four > 1 Konoha Jounin

nindogs smell the first arrow and Kidoumaru is done for. how fast do you think Kidoumaru could escape the battle? I dont even think hes strong enough to leave the forest alive even if he tried fleeing

Well I guess your right, but you cant get behind the fact that Kakashi beat Zabuza only after his sharingan copied Zabuza's techniques and movements during there previous fight were Zabuza kicked him through the air and captured him in a matter of minutes. So in away it still was his sharingan that won him the victory.

But besides that im tired of trying to get my point across. Mabe Kakashi could beat Kido in that situation but him doing it without effort is out of the question. I honestly think if Kakashi won he would be in the same state as Neji was. Because this isnt some one on one, head to head fight were talking about. Its an ambush where kakashi dosent even know who his opponent is.

If we look back at every opponent Kakashi has went up against in the manga he always got messed up in the first confrontation he made with an enemy because of the lack of knowledge that he had on his opponent. And that was with sharigan.

Without it Kakashi totally loses his edge. Plus the fight starts off with Kido with the advantage. He's well hidden and like I said in my previous posts the nin dogs would most likely get caught in a web then locating Kido. Plus I doubt the arrows smell anything like Kido's body since Kido dosent touch the arrows at all, it just comes straight out of his mouth. So how would that help locating him?

Now concerning Neji it was his unique style of taijutsu (Juken) that saved him from that fight or he would have died earlier on in it. Plus Kido wasnt taking him seriously and didnt go CS2 until later. That isnt the case here, he's not playing games and goes straight to CS2. Now If Kakashi some how got trapped in Kido's web without the ability to use his arms how would he escape? He wont be able too, one slip up from Kakashi and he's dead.

All im saying is, in those conditions Kido should be taken more seriously because his stealth, great aim, and the ability to quickly learn his enemy's weakness would be a great threat.

[John Connor]

Well I guess your right, but you cant get behind the fact that Kakashi beat Zabuza only after his sharingan copied Zabuza's techniques and movements during there previous fight were Zabuza kicked him through the air and captured him in a matter of minutes. So in away it still was his sharingan that won him the victory.how does that make sense? they were both blind in the mist so there was nothing for the Sharingan to do

nindogs + Zabuza's scent = Kakashi win... theres no Sharingan in that equation. Kakashi turned the mist into his own advantage without using the Sharingan. who did the mist benefit the most? Kakashi. what was the purpose of the mist? disable Sharingan. take away sight and Kakashi easily cornered Zabuza with his nindogs

But besides that im tired of trying to get my point across. Mabe Kakashi could beat Kido in that situation but him doing it without effort is out of the question. I honestly think if Kakashi won he would be in the same state as Neji was. Because this isnt some one on one, head to head fight were talking about. Its an ambush where kakashi dosent even know who his opponent is.Neji can only use Hyuuga style fighting and thats why Kidoumaru overpowered him. Kakashi has no limit put on him when it comes to ninjutsu like neji does

If we look back at every opponent Kakashi has went up against in the manga he always got messed up in the first confrontation he made with an enemy because of the lack of knowledge that he had on his opponent. And that was with sharigan.very true but in my opinion Kidoumaru isnt even Jounin level so this trend wouldnt apply. so far this only applies to Zabuza level and higher

Without it Kakashi totally loses his edge. Plus the fight starts off with Kido with the advantage. He's well hidden and like I said in my previous posts the nin dogs would most likely get caught in a web then locating Kido. Plus I doubt the arrows smell anything like Kido's body since Kido dosent touch the arrows at all, it just comes straight out of his mouth. So how would that help locating him?real life dogs are so good at smelling that they can locate cancer in people

if Kidoumaru spits out an arrow it will most definitely have his scent on it and the dogs will find him. remember the Zabuza fight? the nindogs precisely located Zabuza while they were traveling underground

Now concerning Neji it was his unique style of taijutsu (Juken) that saved him from that fight or he would have died earlier on in it. Plus Kido wasnt taking him seriously and didnt go CS2 until later. That isnt the case here, he's not playing games and goes straight to CS2. Now If Kakashi some how got trapped in Kido's web without the ability to use his arms how would he escape? He wont be able too, one slip up from Kakashi and he's dead.Neji had to stand his ground and fight because his base skills all revolve around using the Byakugan. he hadnt developed the necessary skills for stealth or ninjutsu to handle a long range fighter and probably still doesn't have any stealth ability

also Kakashi would just cut the web with lightning chakra

All im saying is, in those conditions Kido should be taken more seriously because his stealth, great aim, and the ability to quickly learn his enemy's weakness would be a great threat.
and what I'm saying is 13 year old Jounin Kakashi would have trouble with kidoumaru but still win


in part 1 all the teenagers were protected by a buffer. when the rookie 9 fought all of their skills and abilities were leveled down compared to the adults. take Neji for example. all of his moves seemed godly and he was portrayed as a super genius without equal but when we directly compare his uncles kaiten and his own we see how big of a difference we are talking about

kakashi is on a whole different planet compared to part 1 Neji

[Vangelis]

I agree with everything but what was stated about the Kakashi, Zabuza fight. You really cant see how his first fight with Zabuza effected the second. Kakashi already new Zabuza's technique and didnt need the sharingan the second time because he pretty much had an idea of Zabuza's style.

The only reason Zabuza made the mist so thick the second time around was because of the sharingan. If you think about it and reread the chapters the reason Zabuza lost was because of the sharingan even though Kakashi didnt necassarily use it. It was the concern of kakashi using it that messed Zabuza up. If kakashi's sharingan was out of the picture Zabuza would have pawned him each time.

But back to subject, I think its a little to much to say that 13 year old kakashi could beat kido because of lack of knowledge we have of Kakashi's techniques at that age. But besides that all of arguments makes alot of sense. I dont think i can press the subject any futher so im going to leave it with this.

[Esponer]

Kakashi would use a bunshin and doton: dochū eigyo immediately here. He knows he is facing an opponent stealthy enough to successfully ambush him, and with a powerful long-ranged attack he can use while hidden. Kakashi will use the most tactically sensible move considering his information – and this just so happens to be exactly how he fights.

In the Bell Test (Part II), Kakashi began as a kage bunshin with the real him hidden underground with doton: dochū eigyo. This is his fighting style, certainly in Part II, against mid-tier opponents. He only does not use this style if a) the opponent is known to be too powerful, the field is open and therefore he cannot do it or b) the opponent is entirely unthreatening or c) the situation somehow does not allow for it. None of these apply here, and so Kakashi will use what is essentially his signature combination: kage bunshin (or other) and doton: dochū eigyo.

Once that has happened, it is over for Kidōmaru. He cannot find Kakashi anymore, and Kakashi's superior stealth, enhanced olfaction and doton: tsuiga allow him to find Kidōmaru with ease while remaining undetected. Kakashi is faster than Kidōmaru – he is significantly faster than Neji, who in close-range against Kidōmaru was able to annihilate him. Combine this with stealth, and Kakashi will be assassinating Kidōmaru.

Discussing whether or not mizu bunshin can be used by Kakashi in the Forest of Death is an irrelevant argument, and is a common defensive style of arguing – focusing on a point of minor to no importance to hide the lack of responses to key areas. Kakashi certainly has kage bunshin, and he certainly has plenty of jutsu available to him to fool Kidōmaru. Consider that there is no requirement in Battledome threads to rely only on jutsu actually used (conjecture is not forbidden), and we must also consider that Kakashi may have other bunshin types as well.

Further to this, in Part II Kakashi is now able to perform suiton: suijinheki without a water source – something Nidaime was praised for, and in fact when using a less powerful suiton: suijinheki. Consider that suijinheki is the same rank as the only Suiton ninjutsu to ever have been said to require a water source (and that in the Databook), suiton: suiryūdan. Consider that suiton: suijinheki and suiton: suiryūdan were the pair of Suiton ninjutsu that Nidaime used without a water source in his fight with Sarutobi. Consider that Kakashi can now perform suiton: suijinheki without a water source.

It is tenuous indeed to claim that Kakashi (Part II) requires a water source to perform mizu bunshin, or indeed offensive Suiton ninjutsu. Nowhere was it said mizu bunshin requires a water source to cast – this is a baseless assumption. That Kakashi has used it mainly in areas with some water does not mean that this is required, and indeed many other explanations can be offered.

For those who rather foolishly believe that an argument can be countered by accusing it baselessly of using logical fallacies, try this. The idea that mizu bunshin requires a water source to cast is association fallacy, of this form:

Suiton: suiryūdan is said to require a water source in the Databook (except when used by shinobi whose skill is at the level of Nidaime).
Suiton: suiryūdan is a Suiton ninjutsu.
Therefore, all Suiton ninjutsu require a water source.The idea that mizu bunshin requires a water source because it has been used when water is around is cum hoc ergo propter hoc ("with this, therefore because of this") fallacy: correlation does not prove causation. It goes without saying that "I assume nobody could know the Latin for that without using Wikipedia, therefore you used Wikipedia, therefore I automatically win" is an argument that, if not actually recognised as a fallacy, is still suitably naïve – and wrong, sadly!

[-Deidara-]

Kidoumaru wins..

[Truepotential]

Kidomaru would get RAPEDSTOMPED.

The entire sound 4 Barely beat 2 Special Jounin.

Handicapped Akatsuki level shinobi > Any member of Sound 4 by far.

[Kai]

I actually would say Kidoumaru. Without Kakashi's sharingan how else will he predict Kidoumaru's attacks.
However, whatever, whichever way Genma or Raidou(two very irrelevent tokubetsu jounin) were able to shove around the Sound 4 after being worn down from a mission.

[Grimmjowsensei]

Kido is konoha genin level. Kakashi is a jounin. There is a huge gap between them. Probably, Kakashi's movement/handseal/attack speed is beyond Kido's recoginition and reaction ability. There is noway Kido can hide from Kakashi(nin dogs) and pull the shit that he pulled against Neji.
Its over. Kakashi won.

[Elite Uchiha]

Rank means nothing. Kido has the advantage and will win because Kakashi cant stop 120% accuracy.

[Dman]

l think kido will win.

[PisOgPapir]

Rank means nothing. Kido has the advantage and will win because Kakashi cant stop 120% accuracy.

I somehow don't believe the 120% to be accurate, since it never once did hit its target.

[eDyH]

Rank means nothing. Kido has the advantage and will win because Kakashi cant stop 120% accuracy.

C'mon Elite, I thought you were a better debater than that.

...Oh, wait. No I didn't.

I somehow don't believe the 120% to be accurate, since it never once did hit its target.

It hit Neji, didn't it? :o

[PisOgPapir]

But it didn't once hit where it was actually supposed to :zaru

[eDyH]

Interference. :pek

[Elite Uchiha]

I dont see how Kakashi can win this.

[eDyH]

Then maybe you need to learn to read. :zaru

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13918859&postcount=10
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13943574&postcount=34
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13948453&postcount=40
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13951942&postcount=47
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13955293&postcount=60
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13955551&postcount=65
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13957509&postcount=81
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13958606&postcount=87
http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=13959030&postcount=90

[Elite Uchiha]

All those posts are making Kido look likes hes just going to sit there. Kido rapes Kakashi no sharingan

[Shoddragon]

kakashi concentrate chakra into his nose for an enhanced sense of smell. Kiba's>>> his even pre skip. he has no "natural" high sense of smell. where the hell did you guys extrapolate this from> regardless, hiding underground/moving underground is useless if he cannot go inside of trees with it, and kidomaru's third eye allows him to see chakra, so if kakashi tried to do something stupid he could at least prepare for it.

[eDyH]

All those posts are making Kido look likes hes just going to sit there. Kido rapes Kakashi no sharingan

'kay...

How?

[Nihonjin]

Listen to Serenity people, its plain logic. Kido has NO chance of winning what so ever.

The fact that Kido actually disabled Kakashi's eye is PNJ by the Thread starter and even with the handicap he'd rape Kido horribly. (even by 13 year old Kakashi would just for being a Jounin).