Russia withdraws from arms treaty

[Zhongda]

Link (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/63788AC8-79DD-4AC1-8D76-B0BA0701F79D.htm)
http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2007/8/21/1_226885_1_5.jpg
The pullout means Russia can now move
troops around the country without notifying Nato [AFP]

Russia has withdrawn from a key Cold War treaty setting limits on troops and weapons across Europe, but said there were no immediate plans for a major military build-up.

Moscow's participation in the Conventional Forces in Europe (CFE) treaty was suspended from midnight in Moscow on Tuesday (2100 GMT), the Russian foreign ministry said.

In a statement, the ministry said: "Such a step has been caused by the exceptional circumstances connected to the content of the treaty which concern the security of Russia and demand that we take immediate measures."

Russian troops can now be moved around the country without notifying Nato.


Restoring military might

Signed in 1990 and modified in 1999, the CFE places precise limits on the stationing of troops and heavy weapons from the Atlantic coast to Russia's Ural mountains.

Vladimir Putin, Russia's president, who has made a priority of restoring Russian military might, signed a decree ordering Moscow's suspension of the treaty last month.

The foreign ministry said that Russia was no longer "constrained by the limitations placed on arms deployments on its flanks".

However, it said: "We have no current plans to accumulate massive armaments on our neighbours' borders."

In theory, Russia can return to the treaty at anytime, but analysts say that is unlikely, given mounting East-West distrust.

Rising tensions

The demise of the CFE comes on top of tensions around US plans to install a missile-defence shield in Nato members Poland and the Czech Republic.

Russia has also threatened to leave another major treaty, the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces treaty.

At the heart of Russia's complaints regarding the CFE is Nato's failure to ratify the amended 1999 version of the treaty, taking into account the huge changes wrought by the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.

Nato countries say they cannot ratify the 1999 version because Russian troop presence in the ex-Soviet states of Georgia and Moldova violates the treaty, a charge Moscow rejects.

In addition, Moscow has been pushing for changes to CFE limits on moving troops to the European western flank of the vast country.

Anatoly Antonov, a director at the foreign ministry, said: "Imagine that President Bush cannot move his forces from California to the New York region. It's ridiculous."

'Treaty dead'

Observers said the long list of problems made the CFE unlikely to get back on track.

Pavel Felgenhauer, a military analyst, said: "The treaty is dead."

Felgenhauer said: "It is practically inevitable that Russia will begin moving weapons west, primarily to borders of Baltic states."

"It makes a lot of economic sense to move forces from Siberia to Leningrad district, because it's two or three times more expensive to keep them in Siberia.

"It will also send a powerful signal to the West. It's a win-win situation for Russia."
Blargharghagahgaha

[AbnormallyNormal]

its sort of absurd that there still exists tensions between russia and the USA or the EU, since commiunism has collapsed, and there is no real ideology divide at all anymore. but i agree with putin, russian soverighnty demanded this step

[BandGeekNinja]

why do I have the feeling that we're going to be having another cold war soon with some very anti-russian propaganda on the side?

[RoomBurnerZ]

WW3 is coming :sun

[Tleilaxu]

LOL at Russia that cant do anything anymore. This is all huff and puff from a defunct superpower thats trying to save what little pride it has left. :zaru I hope to see some massive military F*ck ups from Russia in the near future LOL Kursk anyone? And lets not forget the other sub that sank while moving from one dock to the next :awesome

[Sirah]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/e/ee/Army_3.jpg/600px-Army_3.jpg

:zaru in sovijet russia plain fucks yo!!

[Tleilaxu]

LOL Yup THAT my friends is the state of the Soviet eerrr Russian Military

[Sky is Over]

Lole, this another example of Russia trying to be intimidating, when it's more of just showing shit off than actually maintaining and using it.

[DemonAbyss10]

hmm my predictions are starting to take shape on this thread... Patriotic russians and people against it starting to direct witty and stupid remarks at eachother... luckily it hasnt been blown to epic proportions yet.

As for my thoughts on this, the cold war has been over for how long? People need to forgive and forget and just simply... GET THE FUCK ALONG.

[Tleilaxu]

Tell that one to Putin they got their panties in a bunch over a DEFENSIVE missile system. For the common people. A system that cannot be used to attack.

[Shodai]

*Hides in nuclear bunker*


brb 30 years

[Tleilaxu]

I wonder if their nukes would even launch LOL

[Denji]

For the Motherland!:zaru

[Ecclaed]

It may seem humorous that some of Russia's military equipment is outdated, but America has quite a number of military blunders as well. That alone doesn't disqualify a country as being incapable of showing its strength or renewing technology.

I'm curious as to what non-stated benefits Russia gleams from this suspension in the treaty, and its implications, since I don't have a lot of information. I already understand Russia's reasons for not wanting the nuclear defense system in Poland and Czech.

[Tleilaxu]

I dont understand Russias concern with the defense system. It is not an attack system. What are they worried about not being able to threaten their neighbors. Do they secretly want Iran and Norther Korea to try and nuke the USA or its allies. Their are really no benefits to withdraw from this treaty other than to make themselves look strong which they are not.

As long as they dont paint this on their military units we should be fine. :zaru
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Tleilaxu/Misc%20Stuff/1h.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Tleilaxu/Misc%20Stuff/2h.jpg
That is my personal unit decal. In the game World in Conflict for online play you can customize your units to a degree. LOL I think they would look better with the pedobear seal of approval though. :awesome

[Tleilaxu]

HPEgroMoTQw

rSS0SmVwZ00

Experience my friends the awesome power of the Russian Airforce. :zaru

This happened in Ukraine but since that is basically a second Russia the two can be used interchangeabley.

[muad'dib]

Good for Russia, I'm happy for them. I love Russia. :iria
I think it was stupid how they couldn't move their troops from place to place within their own country. It's something my geography book didn't elaborate on too much. :notrust

[Ecclaed]

Tleilaxu, I could post a number of youtube videos of American (or any other military) airshow aircraft crashes caused by pilot error or otherwise malfunctioning.

This happened in Ukraine but since that is basically a second Russia the two can be used interchangeabley.

In a word: no.

[scottlw]

HAHAHA i love russia..... They need to have power :D

[Tleilaxu]

I know America has had some military mess ups but not as many as the Russians. Russia is a second rate country they need to accept the fact they lost the cold war and can no long throw their weight around.

[Ecclaed]

Let me understand what you're saying here. A country such as Russia, who has such a vast amount of natural and energy resources, territory, as well as among the largest stockpiles of weapons (including nuclear) can no longer "throw any weight around?"

The cold war may have ended, and Russia's economy may not be in the best shape, but there is potential for that to change. If they so chose, they could amount to a considerable threat.

[Tleilaxu]

Ok when they change then I will change my tone but as things stand now they cant do crap. China is way more threatening than Russia. Also I think we could easily defeat them like we did in the Cold War again if we had too.

[Roy Mustang]

great, im gonna blamed for WW3 and put to jail cause im russian :facepalm

[Tleilaxu]

Nah. Withdrawing from the treaty does not mean anything to the west LOL

[RAGING BONER]

oh yeah baby...Human Reform League here we come.

HRL > AEU

Union > ALL :pek

[scottlw]

no one won or lost the cold war lol.... They didnt even battle it was just a stand off... if anythign both usa and russia tied cuz they both bitched out and signed treaties

[Tleilaxu]

no one won or lost the cold war lol.... They didnt even battle it was just a stand off... if anythign both usa and russia tied cuz they both bitched out and signed treaties

Actually the Soviets lost as the Cold War spending of the USA forced their econemy to collaspe a long with internal problems.

[Arishem]

It's not that Russia couldn't pose a threat, but that their entire armed forces are in such a terrible state of disrepair. They simply can't afford to keep it in shape. Most of their navy is at the docks. Hell, they only have 50 missile submarines, and only 26 of those are operational. Their silos and ICBM's have been neglected for decades. The airforce is even worse. None of those fancy Sukhois they've been showing at their airshows have even been put into production. In short, it'll be a looooooong time before Russia can catch up to any of the world's other super powers...if it even can to begin with.

[Tleilaxu]

Well said dude! :awesome

[scottlw]

lol well i was wrong the but anyways Russia is my 2nd favorite country... BEST SNIPERS IN THE WORLD.... no one can argue that.

[Tleilaxu]

I too will give props to the former KGB those dudes were scary. Russia can do somethings very well.

[Sky is Over]

It may seem humorous that some of Russia's military equipment is outdated, but America has quite a number of military blunders as well. That alone doesn't disqualify a country as being incapable of showing its strength or renewing technology.

IMO, I think we have one of the best well-round military force in the world, but in the face of an insurgency we fall very short of being able to efficiently fight one. When the Russians build something, they build it just to work and will continue to make more modified versions of military technology based off the original (like how they're replacing AK-47's with AK-90's, and the Mil-17's with Mil-38's.) That has it's advanatages, but the U.S.A. on the other hand takes the time build a completely new model of something that is fully modified. (like how they're phasing out F-15's for F-22's and M-16's for *well, they have yet to determine that.*)

lol well i was wrong the but anyways Russia is my 2nd favorite country... BEST SNIPERS IN THE WORLD.... no one can argue that.

Hmmm, I would say that the Canadians are better or at least right next to them in that category, since they gave rebirth to Sniper Tactics and kept records of them after the goverment disbanded the units many times over.

[Tleilaxu]

I think the reason we fail to fight the insurgency very well is our refusal to sink to their levels. As for Russia they have come out with some cool things but until things radically change they really are not worth taking seriously. Though the MI-24D Hind looks AWESOME!

[Arishem]

IMO, I think we have one of the best well-round military force in the world, but in the face of an insurgency we fall very short of being able to efficiently fight one. When the Russians build something, they build it just to work and will continue to make more modified versions of military technology based off the original (like how they're replacing AK-47's with AK-90's, and the Mil-17's with Mil-38's.) That has it's advanatages, but the U.S.A. on the other hand takes the time build a completely new model of something that is fully modified. (like how they're phasing out F-15's for F-22's and M-16's for *well, they have yet to determine that.*)

My country's obsession with having cutting-edge military hardware is insane. The scary thing is all the stuff we "unveil" has usually been in development for at least two decades or more. While the Raptor is probably the most advanced aircraft we can mass produce, we're probably experimenting with exotic craft that even make it look normal. Popular Science said that hypersonic radar hits and related sonic booms are appearing again, so maybe Project Aurora is still in the air.

[Tleilaxu]

Well if those projects are still going we will need them as China is going to get nasty with in the next 20 years.

[kulgan18]

Oh is ON now bitches...
lol

Seriusly, nothing good will ever come out of this. Look even if there is no a war this is still a waste of resources...

But of course the US cant say much to them given what they spent in the military an all the bases they have around the world.
I wouldnt mind this so much if it wasnt for the fact that they have an asshole in power like putin :S.

[Tleilaxu]

That is another aspect to it. Putin is an Ahole to the tenth degree, espiecally with his cracking down on bussiness and freedom of the media and speech.

To me (And to the West) this withdrawl from the treaty means nothing more than Russia no longer has to submit a pretty pink permission slip when they want to move one broken down tank company to a base for repairs. Shoddy repairs I might add. :zaru :awesome

[Sky is Over]

I think the reason we fail to fight the insurgency very well is our refusal to sink to their levels. As for Russia they have come out with some cool things but until things radically change they really are not worth taking seriously. Though the MI-24D Hind looks AWESOME

Yup, they call it the tank in the sky. :del (The U.S. actually knabbed one down in Chad during the Cold War.)

My country's obsession with having cutting-edge military hardware is insane. The scary thing is all the stuff we "unveil" has usually been in development for at least two decades or more. While the Raptor is probably the most advanced aircraft we can mass produce, we're probably experimenting with exotic craft that even make it look normal. Popular Science said that hypersonic radar hits and related sonic booms are appearing again, so maybe Project Aurora is still in the air.


@Yeah, it's somewhat insane (but these Black Projects always keep our rivals/enemies on their toes.) but I'm not really against it. They're already talking about Laser Defense systems and just one I heard states that they're taking a look at Laser Rifles. :S And concerning the Aurora, I believe it still in process of being constructed. And another interesting aspect is Drone Fighters. I can give a link of what the Military is aiming to build if you want it.

[Tleilaxu]

Yup, they call it the tank in the sky. :del (The U.S. actually knabbed one down in Chad during the Cold War.)


We have a squadron of them operating in Louisiana and some down at Red Flag(Thats the excersise they run, I dont remember the bases name) They have actually shot down fighter jets! *in the exersise of course* :awesome

[Sky is Over]

We have a squadron of them operating in Louisiana and some down at Red Flag(Thats the excersise they run, I dont remember the bases name) They have actually shot down fighter jets! *in the exersise of course* :awesome

Wouldn't suprise me. (The ones in the Iraqi Army and Cobras in the Iranian Army actually had a helicopter battle during their eight year war.)

[Tleilaxu]

THAT would have been cool to see! A helo on Helo engagement. Lets call it a "catfight" LOL

We should get back on topic LOL

[Traveler]

I have mixed feeling for this. 1. Russia can now defend itself faster. 2. I fear WW3

[Raiden]

That's no surprise. Russia has grown massively in power since the treaty was originally signed and because they have grown in power, their interests are just too even become more powerful (that's every countries interest, not just Russia alone). We will just have to learn that we need to respect Russia's wishes and find some other way to make sure things don't get out of control.

[Tleilaxu]

I have mixed feeling for this. 1. Russia can now defend itself faster. 2. I fear WW3

Dont worry about it. Russia has a LONG way to go before it can pose a serious military threat.

[Sky is Over]

Dont worry about it. Russia has a LONG way to go before it can pose a serious military threat.

Well, I wouldn't throw Russia out've the ball-park. They do have some superior armor and rockets than ours and can pose a threat, but we have an even field with them, and I doubt they'd go straight to war over something very minor. They're better off arming smaller countries to do their bidding, like all super-powers do these days.

[Tleilaxu]

True. Still I feel they are second rate in their current condition. Its going to take some changes before I will see them as a credible threat again.

[Toby]

Russia can't do crap? Georgia just happened to fire a missile into its own backyard then, I guess.

No, Russia can be of great harm to Europe. Maybe not to the US any more, but it holds vital economic lifelines of supply such as oil from the Caspian region to central Europe. The European Union isn't going to be taking a liking in this, but it is necessary now that its leader, Merkel, points out that this doesn't mean Russia has any greater influence in Europe.

It has no right to be bullying Georgia or any other former satellite state. Regardless of what Putin has told his commanders about moving west, if they are going to make significant moves in Chechnya or Georgia, it is going to receive harsh critique from the US. And in a time like this, where the US is facing harsh critique both internally and externally from the idea of intervening in Iran, it will look even more hopeless to state its disapproval of what the Russians will be doing next.

It doesn't necessarily mean that Europe as a whole is going to suffer, but we might be moving back to the ridiculous old zero sum game. In which case, it would be wise for people to stop fucking complaining about everything done abroad by a military power.

It is protected in the international laws to accept military intervention where the world peace is threatened. At a time like this, the pacifist and peace movements might have weakened the one nation which although has acted unjustifiably is the only nation which could and would step up on the occasion.

For this reason, PR China should also step up and show that it is not hiding in Russia's shadow, and that if Russia is going to be intimidating, China will pull the carpet from under its feet. There are clear signs here that Russia doesn't want to be forgotten in the plausible future transfer of super-power status from the United States to China, and it is making these shows of independence to back up some lost creed of honour.

For a simpler explanation, look at the sheer size of the nations which Russia would like to wage war with, and those it is bullying. Just because most of us might be safe from its power-politics, it doesn't mean we all are. And if there is something we need to remember about Russian history, it is that when Russia is underestimated, a new power-ideology arises, proclaiming that it has some grand destiny.

This has been its tradition since the founding of the vast nation. From the legacy of the war-lords, to tsars, ideological rebels and Communism, Russia's political history is about a fascination with a mythical destiny of the people. Disillusioned, people will vote for anything and anyone. When under Communist regime, Russians came to understand that people can be forced to do things without believing in them too. That is why Putin mixes the tactics of the former KGB in his administration of a fairly authoritarian state. While at the same time, of course, pretending that the country is making great economic progress despite the alarmingly high rate of corruption in the government.

[Tleilaxu]

I suppose that if Russia does get frisky then its the USA's job to bail out whoever Russia is pestering. :facepalm

It has no right to be bullying Georgia or any other former satellite state.
Agreed.

Though if "yours truely" tries to help we will just be labeled as arrogant Americans who think they can run the world as they see fit. Its a no win for us if we get involved over there. I say let Europe handle itself on its own and see how they like it. :zaru

[Sexta Espada]

I know America has had some military mess ups but not as many as the Russians. Russia is a second rate country they need to accept the fact they lost the cold war and can no long throw their weight around.

You do realize there is no winner to the Cold War? Cuz, uh, it kinda never built up?


And Russia would not be in the state it's in if were not for the fact that they have let too many criminals in, and that morale is low due to many factors, such as possibly being sent to "some godforsaken post on the Chinese border." Also, it has do with the fact Yeltsin fucked up their military spending, and that fact was exploded by the fact that alot of the newer Soviet inventory whent to places like Latvia and Ukraine (the former doesn't even need it, the nazi fucks. And now that they joined NATO, I bet the fucks will try to surplus them to Chechnya). If it wasn't for the equipment and the criminal problems, they wouldn't be so fucked up.

[Tleilaxu]

How can you say there was no winner of the cold war? The Soviet Union is no more yet the USA remains. That should be proof enough that there was a winner.