What kind of life you preferred

[Nikitaa]

Okay, I posted this here because it has some philosophical aspects and I didn't want to post it in the Konoha Plaza because most of the answers there are - I'll put it nicely - unsatisfying.

I just wondered - as the title suggests - what kind of life you preferred. I'll give you two options: Either you live happily in a family but your mind is a bit - hm, let's say, close-minded and naive, you don't have any deep thoughts, so some would say you're kinda 'dull', you have banal problems, you haven't really experienced much in life, so shortly, you've always lived under a protective bubble with your few friends (and you don't know if you can really call them friends, it's just that everyone has to have some friends to share some time and do stuff friends just do and yeah) and then you're gonna marry some husband and die and you'll be soon forgotten. So you were just an ordinary human but as I've said, you were happy with that.

Or would you prefer, living unhappily but with your mind 'free' and 'clear'? Your situation with your family and friends is shit and you don't know how to go on because somehow, you don't see any hope for anything at all but you keep going on because you're too afraid of death and there's also a bit curiosity? You feel like you don't belong to this world, you are resigned and watch life and its people in it like a theatre. You laugh about these people that I've described above with their superficiality and yeah, you're kinda like... that. But your mind is free, you KNOW that you can THINK, that you actually have these problems and worry about these kinda stuff, and somehow, there's hope that everything will turn eventually better, sometime.

I hope you get what I mean.

For myself, I think I'm more in the second situation and looking at it, I think it wouldn't be too bad sometimes to live without any worries like others do even though my mind would be limited, since, I wouldn't feel like I missed it, I guess.

[Espionage]

Second situation.


Naive IMHO is one of the lowest categories you can place yourself on.

[Nikitaa]

@Espionage

Yeah but at least you would be happy. And naive people don't even know that they are naive or else they wouldn't be naive. So for them, they don't see anything wrong with themselves. So if I was one of them, I would live and (probably) die happily and my naivety hasn't affected me or my life.

[Einstein]

I'd pick the second situation. I want to see the world as it is, not with the plastic wrapping still over it. And sometimes living unhappily is how you learn/experience most of these things. I'd rather be a troubled genius than a happy Average Joe.

[scottlw]

i choose the 2nd aswell

[Coteaz]

A life ruled by ignorance is no life at all. Therefore, the second option for me.

[Willaien]

As a freethinker and naturalist, I'll have to go with the second option. The truth is more important to me than a delusion.

[dreams lie]

What you are trying to say is ignorance really bliss. It's like the whole Matrix situation. Would you rather live unknowing of all the world's problems?

I rather go with scenario #2.

[Espionage]

@Espionage

Yeah but at least you would be happy. And naive people don't even know that they are naive or else they wouldn't be naive. So for them, they don't see anything wrong with themselves. So if I was one of them, I would live and (probably) die happily and my naivety hasn't affected me or my life.

But the problem is, you could be hurting other people.

I'd rather be aware of if I heart someone than to always feel like life is perfect.

[AbnormallyNormal]

wow you sound like my dreamgirl are you single?

yes i obviously prefer #2 life also

[Toby]

Situation number two, I'll join the bandwagon there.

My reason however is that the very discomfort and depression which freedom of thought causes is something I like. I don't mean to justify being over-emotional, but I believe that the little depression which I nurture within me is a necessary element I need in order to remain capable of helping others who truly suffer.

Being able to think outside the box is helpful in such situations, and it is also very important to be able to act according to the many unique situations in life which you will meet.

A life of ignorance and therefore single-moralistic views will make you very narrow-minded and specialised in being only yourself. Though the self is important, you are not alone in this world. The world and the number of people around you must somehow always outnumber you in terms of overall importance and beauty. Being unable to sense this diversity therefore makes you very ill-adapted, in my opinion.

Not that having strong views and being stubborn aren't good traits. I have both of them myself. However, letting them rule me is not an option.

[AbnormallyNormal]

i think it's sort of like once you puncture your quiet comfortable environment, its hard to go back you know? once you feel the cold wind of truth, you dont want to retreat into sunny happy fantasy land ever again, because it seems degrading.

[Karol!]

#2, definitely. i need to be able to think freely and choose things on my own to be happy. i know way too many people who would fit into scenario #1 and i can see they arent really happy, but they insist on never changing themselves :| its frustrating...

[Nikitaa]

Thank you for your answers and thanks Toby_Christ, I kinda hoped for your answer with your view on this topic. It'll help me to get through ^_^

[Pilaf]

I choose the second option. It's really the only way you can be with a free and clear mind, really - unhappy, miserable and pessimistic. And yet I carry on.

[Rolling~Star]

I'd have to choose the second option. Freedom is what makes me upright.

But sad to say, my life leans more toward the first scenario. :arg

[Brokensharingan]

2. life is for living simple as that

[AbnormallyNormal]

if you think about it, what kind of person who goes online and types in a philosophy subforum would ever even choose #1 anyway?

[Denji]

Situation 2 is practically a reality for me. Given the choice, I would probably still prefer this lifestyle over an "ignorance is bliss" mindset.

[Saufsoldat]

Wisdom is like a damn hard drug :LOS

Ever since I got some, I wanted more and I wouldn't want to swap with someone stupid... Not even for a day :(

To me the naive and narrow-minded lead boring lives and... well, they can't think outside the box and I wouldn't put myself inside that box if I had a choice :pek

[Mek Blaze]

Option 1 definitely. I pick happiness over intelligence. I want to enjoy life instead of realizing how this world sucks.

[Nikitaa]

if you think about it, what kind of person who goes online and types in a philosophy subforum would ever even choose #1 anyway?

Maybe me. Well, just for a period of time. Sometimes it's just nice not to think about anything and 'go with the flow'. You know, even though I kinda 'despise' people like that, I'm always with them. I've grown with them. I don't know if it's just inevitable so I've adapted to them or if it's actually good because they help me to forget sometimes. I like being with both sides but sometimes it gets too much and then I just retreat but then after some time, I need them back.

And I would put most of the people I know IRL into the first category but it's funny how everyone here would take #2, maybe some of them just don't like the thought of being actually #1 and admitting it.

@Rolling~Star
In what sense? You mean, that you're happy or more ignorant? Well, it's good that you've realized it, it's the first step to improve.

[Willaien]

Maybe me. Well, just for a period of time. Sometimes it's just nice not to think about anything and 'go with the flow'. You know, even though I kinda 'despise' people like that, I'm always with them. I've grown with them. I don't know if it's just inevitable so I've adapted to them or if it's actually good because they help me to forget sometimes. I like being with both sides but sometimes it gets too much and then I just retreat but then after some time, I need them back.

And I would put most of the people I know IRL into the first category but it's funny how everyone here would take #2, maybe some of them just don't like the thought of being actually #1 and admitting it.

@Rolling~Star
In what sense? You mean, that you're happy or more ignorant? Well, it's good that you've realized it, it's the first step to improve.

Here in the Cafe, you will find that people tend to critically analyze things. The kind of person that is willing to critically analyze things isn't the kind to just accept ignorant bliss.

[AbnormallyNormal]

well you dont have to be 100% #2 to still be #2 overall.

[Giorno Giovanna]

A combination of both options would suffice. I prefer to live happily but at the same time, I prefer to live as someone who sees the world for what it truly is and is not confined by ignorance.

Basically, I would want to live in the family and relationship of option 1 but with the mindset of option 2.

[Rolling~Star]

if you think about it, what kind of person who goes online and types in a philosophy subforum would ever even choose #1 anyway?

let's take this to chatterbox then. :zaru


@Rolling~Star
In what sense? You mean, that you're happy or more ignorant? Well, it's good that you've realized it, it's the first step to improve.


The ignorance part. :arg

[Saria19]

Second choice, this world is already a house of glass to begin with. At least with the second choice, when it it all comes down you will have had the sense to put on a hard hat whereas with choice one, you would be caught unaware.

[sugarcookie4292]

Second option. I couldn't imagine going through life with such naivety and ignorange as some people do.

[Sasori-puppet#66]

The second. I was naive once and I don't want to be it again.

[drache]

While I sometimes wished I didn't think as much as I did, I also know I'd be unhappy in ignorance.

Better to know the truth then to know the lie.

So I'd pick option 2, and I'd say that eventually one can work out the situation and know the truth and still be happy.

[zornedge]

"And at night, I roam these streets with absolutely no purpose
Feeling like I'm worthless
But contrary to my last statement, I feel fine
Content with the fact that I know this city's mine"
- lyrics from some song I saw on someone's away message and copied.

Knowing everything and creating a dependence on them can lead to one's own dissatisfaction/unhappiness. In that sense, I choose neither #1, a simple farm boy who follows routine and aspires to do nothing benefiting for society, nor #2, living a dysfunctional life assuming such a persona that secretly relishes in cynical views in order to build one's ego - and that is selfish naivety at its best.

I would rather just see life as it is, notice the subtlety of people's reactions to you and call them on it, ask questions about anything, experiment with stuff that won't kill me, be real to my feelings, and stay content with my own life. This is one way I can stay a bystander of this world, and also be a participant on it. This is the only way you can stay sane in a crazy world, and experience life for what it is.

[erictheking]

I contend the idea that Option #1 constitutes a blissful life; the way the threadstarter proposed it, it seemed to be more about being satisfied & content with the seemingly normal lifestyle than anything else. (although the life seems more boring than usual.)

As for Option #2, I'd have to say I would agree with ^ zornedge here; being a miserable cynic constantly afraid of death holds little appeal. Having a 'free and clear mind' seems like little consolation for being a dysfunctional miser my whole life.

I would prefer having both the self-contentment of the first option and the 'outsider looking in' of the second option - but I can't choose either as they are. :/

[Dreikoo]

I'm living 2 but without the majority of the negativity you infused to it....my family/friends situation is more than crap but my life rocks and i love every minute of it...:P

But yeah had i to chose i'd say one , ignorant people will never know they're ignorant so it wouldn't hurt me...and the only people who'd know by your descriptions would already live a torture of a life so i'm better off :D.

[Pacha Batofar]

I’m more of person two: free mind, and completely aware of any of the things that pass me by. I’m okay with it though, because being ignorant (although it may mean less misery) is degrading.

[Neptune]

my life is currently #2 but i would definitely not prefer #1
the happy go lucky life of ignorance would suck

[Zaru]

I can't decide on either since my life has always been a mix of both #1 and #2.

[Sonam Gyatso]

Or would you prefer, living unhappily but with your mind 'free' and 'clear'? Your situation with your family and friends is shit and you don't know how to go on because somehow, you don't see any hope for anything at all but you keep going on because you're too afraid of death and there's also a bit curiosity? You feel like you don't belong to this world, you are resigned and watch life and its people in it like a theatre. You laugh about these people that I've described above with their superficiality and yeah, you're kinda like... that. But your mind is free, you KNOW that you can THINK, that you actually have these problems and worry about these kinda stuff, and somehow, there's hope that everything will turn eventually better, sometime.
I would argue that a free and clear mind is not unhappy. A free mind is liberated from the causes of suffering. A clear mind is not assaulted by a self-grasping ignorance that is alway seeking pleasure and happiness outside of itself, in material things or sensual experiences.

Perhaps such a person would begin as unhappy, having left behind the luxuries they were used to, but after time they would find (with such a fortunate mind) where happiness really comes from, where suffering comes from (and how to defeat it), and why the sky is really blue.

[Momochi Zabuza]

Second situation. Somehow I don't see myself being unhappy if I have perfect clarity...as long as I'm not, ya know, psychotic and just think that I know wassap. I'm not overly afraid of death, anyway, so it's not like I'd be super emo and resigned to it. o.o

[Nikitaa]

nor #2, living a dysfunctional life assuming such a persona that secretly relishes in cynical views in order to build one's ego - and that is selfish naivety at its best.

I don't understand how you think that #2 for you is like living a dysfunctional life that build one's ego. Please explain.

I would argue that a free and clear mind is not unhappy. A free mind is liberated from the causes of suffering. A clear mind is not assaulted by a self-grasping ignorance that is alway seeking pleasure and happiness outside of itself, in material things or sensual experiences.

Perhaps such a person would begin as unhappy, having left behind the luxuries they were used to, but after time they would find (with such a fortunate mind) where happiness really comes from, where suffering comes from (and how to defeat it), and why the sky is really blue.

You don't have to have necessarily a free mind to know what's going on this world. And for me, having a 'free mind' is like knowing what 'truth' or 'good' is or as likely as to have a 'freewill'.

Of course there are days when I feel free and relaxed and still I wouldn't say I have a free mind. But #2 was a given option by me: Living constantly in a state of stress and unhappiness and dissatisfaction but possessing a mind that can think.

[Giovanni Rild]

Situation 2 is practically a reality for me. Given the choice, I would probably still prefer this lifestyle over an "ignorance is bliss" mindset.

Situation 2 is reality for me also.

[zornedge]

I don't understand how you think that #2 for you is like living a dysfunctional life that build one's ego. Please explain.

A bit difficult to explain, but basically survival of the ego at its best.

It's pretty much the principles of Zen at work - kill your ego, and you will see a lot better. This, I'm afraid, is also a mindset, but I think it does help make life more satisfactory because it meets the goal of not being ignorant, as well as living a life that is not dysfunctional at all.

I don't believe anyone can truly see clearly what life is like, what they want, becoming immune to ignorance, etc. These are just variables in your mind, your ego rather. And, in any type of life, the variables are altered so that it fits the ego for structuring purposes. (i.e. making an identity out of yourself). The ego can structure itself to prevent any fallacies (i.e. realizing what ignorant people would miss) in order to survive to retain ones identity.

Therefore, in a dysfunctional life, the ego has become so critical of life that it builds upon itself to see through the muck, just to survive. However, one needs to realize that muck is only defined by oneself because of the life situation at hand. So, in a sick sense, the ego provides claims and support for its own path on cynicism, becoming more critical and claiming to feel more "true" to themselves and that is what I meant by being truly naive, as the person with this type of ego is unable to break out of the identity the ego has built for itself. This ego would also be prone to vengeance if it feels it has been wronged because it has nothing to lose.

In your example, for instance - you asked whether I would rather live an unhappy life (dysfunctional) with my mind 'free' and 'clear' as defined by the ego knowing that our relationships are 'shit' and the ego keeps telling me there's no 'hope' for anything, yet it struggles on.

This type of ego is something I don't want, as it will just control me and the way I think will stay within a certain type of mindset which I will call being closed-minded. It will cloud my vision and my path to contentedness in life, no matter how 'sharp' the ego wants me to think it is.

It's really a matter of picking the lifestyle, vs actually living it. For picking, I choose neither. For actually living #2, I wouldn't have a choice, but I'll try to make the damn best of it as I can. Take a look at Martin Luther King, for example... he lived shit, yet came out triumphant and is a name known to all.

Actually, I'll stop now. I'm just rambling, but the point should be clear that the ego defines you, and this is naivety at best if you're stuck within it - key word being stuck. A dysfunctional life only contributes to the ego's self-survival, which is why I declined #2. If you can see past the ego, then you can truly be able to THINK clearly. Kind of like being subjective vs objective, I guess.

[impersonal]

Okay, I posted this here because it has some philosophical aspects and I didn't want to post it in the Konoha Plaza because most of the answers there are - I'll put it nicely - unsatisfying.

I just wondered - as the title suggests - what kind of life you preferred. I'll give you two options: Either you live happily in a family but your mind is a bit - hm, let's say, close-minded and naive, you don't have any deep thoughts, so some would say you're kinda 'dull', you have banal problems, you haven't really experienced much in life, so shortly, you've always lived under a protective bubble with your few friends (and you don't know if you can really call them friends, it's just that everyone has to have some friends to share some time and do stuff friends just do and yeah) and then you're gonna marry some husband and die and you'll be soon forgotten. So you were just an ordinary human but as I've said, you were happy with that.

Or would you prefer, living unhappily but with your mind 'free' and 'clear'? Your situation with your family and friends is shit and you don't know how to go on because somehow, you don't see any hope for anything at all but you keep going on because you're too afraid of death and there's also a bit curiosity? You feel like you don't belong to this world, you are resigned and watch life and its people in it like a theatre. You laugh about these people that I've described above with their superficiality and yeah, you're kinda like... that. But your mind is free, you KNOW that you can THINK, that you actually have these problems and worry about these kinda stuff, and somehow, there's hope that everything will turn eventually better, sometime.

I hope you get what I mean.

For myself, I think I'm more in the second situation and looking at it, I think it wouldn't be too bad sometimes to live without any worries like others do even though my mind would be limited, since, I wouldn't feel like I missed it, I guess.

The swiss philosopher Rousseau would have choosed the first lifestyle. According to him, things such as deep thought or technology are unnatural perversions of humanity which only create more trouble and more suffering. However, Rousseau also thought that once you've taken the path to the second lifestyle, it's impossible to go back. I'm not sure about which life is preferable - it's not like you're going to know anything for sure, even if you spend your time thinking, so the second choice is not that attractive. But I agree with him that once you've taken the path of knowledge, it's impossible to go back. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Thank God, being naive and being happy are two distinct things, with no direct correlation.

[Solinn]

I would take the second option, I would rather have a mind that is powerful and free because although the current situation may be dull and bleak, with a powerful mind great things can be accomplished and the sky is the limit

[Moses]

2nd ^^

With a clear mind, as far as I'm concerned, these things shouldn't even matter to you, unless you want them too.

[Nikitaa]

@zornedge
Again, thank you for this. If I think about my life, my ego is pretty much like the one you've described. Sad, I know. But I want to work on this. It's not that easy, though because having such an ego helps you to survive, even if you walk on with your eyes closed but you live and live on.

@Hugo_Pratt
If you can compare the 'path of knowledge' with 'seeing how cruel life can be', with that I mean the not-so-nice aspects of life/knowledge, then I think they can be surpressed, maybe even forgotten. How? By forgetting the past and all 'knowledge' you've gained.

[tictactoc]

I seriously don't care and think about all those things. Just want to see how my life will go, that's why I live.

[???]

My life looks similar to both the mentioned cases. Like in the first case, I am enjoying a nice life, although my relationships with people aren't really excellent, but they are decent I'd say. And as in the second case, I am able to think freely, and watch life and its people like a theatre, an interested but mostly uninvolved observer. However, the similarities end here, as I don't laugh at people like they are inferior or anything like that. As a matter of fact, I think that all humans are equal, and that there aren't superior or inferior people. Also, I am not even afraid of death or curious about life. I have decided that life doesn't have a point, so dreaming and hoping on discovering something new and exciting is meaningless. Instead of wondering about the future, I just live every moment and enjoy myself as much as I can. To put this in other words, I have stopped philosophizing life as I am resolved that I have discovered the meaning behind everything. Which is that there is no real meaning behind anything, things are just random, and life's only there for us to enjoy it while we are alive. If you just keep wondering about stuff, then you'll only end up unhappy because there are no answers to be found. But everything becomes crystal-clear with the right resolve.

[Warsmith]

I'd go with the first situation because i believe that happiness is one of the most important purposes of life. But isn't the second condition a little unrealistic, because being able to think freely and laughing at the scenario #1 people bring you happiness in it self knowing you've transcended there closed mindedness, because thats the feeling i usualy get seeing as how i live in a life closer to situation 2 than 1

[Xion]

I choose neither. It does not matter what kind of Life you choose since in most cases one does not choose their Life or how to live it.

Life pulls them along for the ride.

[Ryoku]

I have lived in both worlds, and would have to say that I value the truth more that naive happiness. I think that I would choose the second option - though I do not believe that one's situation necessarily dictates weather or not one is happy. This sounds similar to ignorance is bliss I think... :)

[Lawliet]

happiness is great, but in my experience it never lasts, so I'll take truth, it'll be around longer.