I have a question

[Masa Def]

If you do not believe in God or the bible then how do you base your ethics?

This is a simple question for most people who know how to debate but I find it laughable that the only thing debated is theological issues and not ethics, law, sociology etc.

[GrimaH]

Apparently you don't know that ethics and morals don't originate from the Bible.

[Willaien]

If you do not believe in God or the bible then how do you base your ethics?

This is a simple question for most people who know how to debate but I find it laughable that the only thing debated is theological issues and not ethics, law, sociology etc.

Golden rule and secular humanism, for me. Seriously, all you need to know about ethics can come from the golden rule.

[Masa Def]

Apparently you don't know that ethics and morals don't originate from the Bible.
Then what from cultural relativism?
Golden rule and secular humanism, for me. Seriously, all you need to know about ethics can come from the golden rule.
golden rule? expand because I am only par with secular humanism.

[Willaien]

golden rule? expand because I am only par with secular humanism.

What culture are you from? Or is English a second language for you? (Not trying to be insulting, just... strange to talk to someone that doesn't know of the Golden Rule)

The Golden Rule is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[GrimaH]

Then what from cultural relativism?

What about it?

[Masa Def]

What culture are you from? Or is English a second language for you? (Not trying to be insulting, just... strange to talk to someone that doesn't know of the Golden Rule)

The Golden Rule is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
lol I have not heard that since I was in second grade my bad.

[BandGeekNinja]

I was raised a Catholic but am an atheist, so alot of my ethics come from Catholisism (not sure that's spelled right...)

[Willaien]

There are a few questions you can ask yourself, as well, like:

"Would I criticize another for holding this view?"

"What would I do in this situation, and what effect would it have on others?"

"What would I have done to me in this situation?"

"Would I criticize another for doing what I'm about to do?"

"What effect will this have on others?"

Ethics are certainly complex beasts, but, you don't need religion to have them.

[raisin-gun]

My ethics come from The Baha'i Faith.

In my opinion, all ethics originate from religion. Even if you are athiest and you base your ethics on society's ethics, that society's ethics came from religion.

[Willaien]

My ethics come from The Baha'i Faith.

Irrelevant, since you believe in a god, and that's not what this discussion is about.


In my opinion, all ethics originate from religion. Even if you are athiest and you base your ethics on society's ethics, that society's ethics came from religion.

Religion is so engrossed into our society, it's impossible to know, and I disagree. All you can do is think about it, but... I'm perfectly morally fine without religion, and I disagree with a lot of things that the religious people say here, so...

[Catatonik]

I base my ethics on what I feel is right. It is a combination of things I was raised to believe, beliefs I have formed from experience, and ideals that have been shaped by the writings I absorb.

As for the stance that Ethics come from religion, CS Lewis and his writings on Moral Law provide an interesting speculation concerning the origin of ethics and self-sacrifice, but I think ethics are regardless of religion, and thus were worked into religion.

[Saufsoldat]

I just do what I think I should. Apparently I don't need god to tell me what's right so I'm fine like this.

[AbnormallyNormal]

i do not really have a system of ethics per se, i actually am a moral nihilist

[Traveler]

Just minor morals... The one thing that I think religion is good for.

[JohnnyGoodtoes]

Well the ethics of society are ever changing a few hundred years ago having a slave was morally acceptable and perhaps in a few hundred years eating meat will be immoral.


All anyone can ever do is just try

[AbnormallyNormal]

Well the ethics of society are ever changing a few hundred years ago having a slave was morally acceptable and perhaps in a few hundred years eating meat will be immoral.


All anyone can ever do is just try

good point. i think that if you get too worked up over morals you will make yourself go crazy!!! you will do whatever you're going to do regardless

[mislead]

Apparently, the human brain has a basic "moral instinct" of sorts hardcoded into itself, so there's no need for any basis at that level.

Intellectually, any arbitrary concept seems to work, be it "The Golden Rule", "God's will" or moral utilitarianism. In the end, you're just taking an irrational belief (like "a good action is one that produces more pleasure than suffering"), and building a system on top of it.


Personally, I don't feel any need for moral evaluations of actions other than my own, so a traditionally understood moral framework is useless to me.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Apparently, the human brain has a basic "moral instinct" of sorts hardcoded into itself, so there's no need for any basis at that level.

Intellectually, any arbitrary concept seems to work, be it "The Golden Rule", "God's will" or moral utilitarianism. In the end, you're just taking an irrational belief (like "a good action is one that produces more pleasure than suffering"), and building a system on top of it.


Personally, I don't feel any need for moral evaluations of actions other than my own, so a traditionally understood moral framework is useless to me.

why do you feel a need to only judge your own actions morally? it would seem to me that you'd have to be judging more than just that, or else none whatsoever

[Masa Def]

Damn, nobody with socialist or cosmic humanism beliefs? Other then some people stating they do what they think is right.

How do you know what is right and wrong?

[Saufsoldat]

Damn, nobody with socialist or cosmic humanism beliefs? Other then some people stating they do what they think is right.

How do you know what is right and wrong?

I am socialist. However socialism is, if at all, very advanced ethics... I was more talking about my basic ethics/morals.

[GrimaH]

How do you know what is right and wrong?

Define right and wrong first :awesome

[Masa Def]

The Bible defines write and wrongs for me. Sorry it may sound not cool :awesome

so is the bible just relative truth?

grimaH, I love how you flame and post one sentence post and then tell everybody off on how they flame.

[scottlw]

many people dont believe in god or the bible or any other religion... some believe were just a parasite destroying the earth... some beleave we came from parasites

it dont matter what you believe every one is different.

Justas long as you realize we all die so live life as much as you can dont just let it pass you by.

[GrimaH]

The Bible defines write and wrongs for me. Sorry it may sound not cool :awesome

so is the bible just relative truth?

Is the Bible truth at all? :zaru

grimaH, I love how you flame and post one sentence post and then tell everybody off on how they flame.

Being a skilled troll with professional pride, I cannot help but tick off those whose trolling and flaming are not up to my lofty standards. :del
*adds Masanari to list of people who love me*

[Masa Def]

Is the Bible truth at all? :zaru



Being a skilled troll with professional pride, I cannot help but tick off those whose trolling and flaming are not up to my lofty standards. :del
*adds Masanari to list of people who love me*
I doubt you have been in a Philosophical calss.

I like how you troll to make yourself feel better
I like how you think if someone talks about God it is trolling
I like how I make you feel uncomfortable

I am masanari's complete and utter disgust. :amuse

[Saufsoldat]

I doubt you have been in a Philosophical calss.

I like how you troll to make yourself feel better
I like how you think if someone talks about God it is trolling
I like how I make you feel uncomfortable

I am masanari's complete and utter disgust. :amuse

GrimaH is pretty damn philosophical so don't mock him. Who cares if someone had a "Philosophical class"? Having it doesn't improve your "philosophy skills" at all.

[JohnnyGoodtoes]

Im in a Ethics class right now and it hasnt really made me more moral, or evalute my own morality in anyway but has made me open to more ideas. LIike Egoists (Think its egoist) Believe you can only act for your own good and even someone who based there morals on the bible like Mother Teresa who always SEEMS to be acting selflessly is acting selflessly because it makes her feel good about herself. If you believe this then you cant ever really control how moral you are you just have to hope you are raised in an enviroment where "good" moral standards are given to you.

[JohnnyGoodtoes]

Also I think its really dangerous to base your ethics on anything that isnt your own self.
Look at suicide bombers for example they look interpret the book of Islam in a way that makes them feel that blowing themselves up they will be rewarded for cleasning the earth and be given 72 virgins in the afterlife. They arent bad people they have just been raised in an atmosphere where they were given a different morality.

[RAGING BONER]

Ethical dilemmas: well if a problem can't be solved by sticking your penis in something then goddamnit it isnt worth solving!

[Tokoyami]

I do what i think is right. I judge my own actions and (save for a the few people who I respect) don't give a fuck what others think of them.

What you think is right to me may be wrong and visa versa. Thus rendering societies moral standards to me useless and slightly retarded.

Philosophy class? Yeah sure that automatically makes you the best judge of philosophy around doesn't it?

[Masa Def]

GrimaH is pretty damn philosophical so don't mock him. Who cares if someone had a "Philosophical class"? Having it doesn't improve your "philosophy skills" at all.
If you take a math class it does not improve your math skills at all :awesome

[Saufsoldat]

If you take a math class it does not improve your math skills at all :awesome

Don't mix up empiric sciences with philosophy... That's what we learned first in philosophy class :pek

My math is perfect anyway, I don't even need math classes :LOS

[Masa Def]

:facepalm yar

[GrimaH]

I doubt you have been in a Philosophical class.

I haven't. :del
But apparently I've discovered that there's actually - gasp - another way to learn philosophy!
How amazing is that :awesome

I like how you troll to make yourself feel better

Orgasm-magnitude better :del
You should try it sometime.

I like how you think if someone talks about God it is trolling

No, not really.
Read my non-trolling posts in the Cafe, you'll probably understand.

I like how I make you feel uncomfortable

You make my penis hard :del

Also, what's with the attempt to derail this thread with ad hominem attacks?

[ANBUBooBoo]

My ethics come from The Baha'i Faith.

In my opinion, all ethics originate from religion. Even if you are athiest and you base your ethics on society's ethics, that society's ethics came from religion.

The thing is though, if you're an atheist then it stands to reason that one would believe that religious ethics stem then from the people who created the religion, so it goes back to society.

I was raised Christian, am currently Agnostic. I very much base my ethics and morals on the golden rule.

[Denji]

My ethics are subjective. I do what I think is right and it may vary on a case to case basis.

[AbnormallyNormal]

you should read "the tao is silent" by the logician raymond smullyan. he basically proves how you dont need any objective foundation of ethics to still have common sense and civilization

[Pilaf]

If you do not believe in God or the bible then how do you base your ethics?


Morality is the foundation of all religions, not the other way around.

Once you cut out the dogma, superstition and punishments hawked by major world religions, you're left with the quintessence of morality - Humanism, which is the innate desire to love and help one another simply because we're human. All people are born with this desire, and gradually lose it through fear mongering and social programming.

[Pale]

Exactly, Pilafs got it down. My own ethics are based on worldly observation and experience. The best thing about that is that it is ever changing as time goes on, while religion barely changes. I mean, people don't get killed for sodomy anymore but gays are still disciminated against. It just comes out in smaller doses these days. But I really do believe that some one should base ethics on their own life and thoughts. And hey if that agrees with a certain religion, thats great, but individual faiths shouldn't be scued either.

[Ucal]

If you take a secular approach, I think that ethics originated from people, early on, either thinking, "Man, this would suck if it happened to me", and not doing it to other people, or through Cooperation, and eventually companionship or love between family, friends and lovers. To hold someone close to your heart is to depend on their happiness, and it isn't that far of a leap to apply that concept to the rest of the species. Evolutionarily, this would have originated from mates protecting each other, and pack behavior. Now, these values, these axioms are instilled in our culture.

The best way to be a moral person I think is to practice the golden rule. Of course, that is much harder than the title suggests.

[Masa Def]

If you take a secular approach, I think that ethics originated from people, early on, either thinking, "Man, this would suck if it happened to me", and not doing it to other people, or through Cooperation, and eventually companionship or love between family, friends and lovers. To hold someone close to your heart is to depend on their happiness, and it isn't that far of a leap to apply that concept to the rest of the species. Evolutionarily, this would have originated from mates protecting each other, and pack behavior. Now, these values, these axioms are instilled in our culture.

The best way to be a moral person I think is to practice the golden rule. Of course, that is much harder than the title suggests.

Defined by many secular world views, the family is merely the insitutes of religion and we will soon evolve from such relationships. Marxist-lenist actually look down on the family.

[Gaawa-chan]

"The family" an institution of religion? Hardly. It is a biological and environmental thing, and not religious unless you add that in after the fact. Do you think that our ancestors ten thousand years ago did not have family because they did not have religion...

[Tenrow]

If you do not believe in God or the bible then how do you base your ethics?

This is a simple question for most people who know how to debate but I find it laughable that the only thing debated is theological issues and not ethics, law, sociology etc.
You know it's the same case with the belief in God. How can you believe in a religion where in a lot of "stories" God tells someone or some people to go and kill other people or other groups of people, just because "He told them too." I mean the entire mindset behind that is that of a 5 year old. Maybe one day someone will come up to you and say "I'm going to kill you because this omniscient intangible being that told me in my mind said that I should kill you"

When it comes down to it, you can base any ethic or morals down to "It hurts me, it hurts you, we shouldn't do this."

I just hate the fact that many people in history justify not just violence but total evil, due to "cause God told me." I mean look at today, extremist Muslims think that by killing themselves and everyone around them who are supposedly against their religion is what God wants them to do and or ordered them to do, and you know gets me the most is the fact that IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN GOD OF CHRISTIANITY.

[Minorin]

You know it's the same case with the belief in God. How can you believe in a religion where in a lot of "stories" God tells someone or some people to go and kill other people or other groups of people, just because "He told them too." I mean the entire mindset behind that is that of a 5 year old. Maybe one day someone will come up to you and say "I'm going to kill you because this omniscient intangible being that told me in my mind said that I should kill you"

I just hate the fact that many people in history justify not just violence but total evil, due to "cause God told me." I mean look at today, extremist Muslims think that by killing themselves and everyone around them who are supposedly against their religion is what God wants them to do and or ordered them to do, and you know gets me the most is the fact that IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN GOD OF CHRISTIANITY.

Has it ever occurred to you that any representative of a figure is not necessarily the actual figure itself? I can take drugs, hallucinate, and then find a vision of a god telling me to kill someone. That doesn't mean that the assumed god actually told me, it was my imagination. People are given the power to think, and thus be imperfect at the same time. Even the people in the Bible, for example, aren't necessarily people whom we should try to emulate.

Note what you say: "extremist". There are extremist atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists; extremist liberals, republicans; extremist emo, hippie, rich, and nerdy students. Being extreme is in itself more profound in its influence on others, mostly in a negative way. I don't see how you're making a point by talking about the Muslim extremists.

And... no. The god written in the Koran, Bible, and Torah are technically the same in text since it was written based on the one before its time, but if the belief is different, then the god is different. If a scientist wrote of a theory about a term, and a hundred years later, another scientist took the former scientist's papers and wrote a different theory on it, the term's meaning may change, for better or worse.

When it comes down to it, you can base any ethic or morals down to "It hurts me, it hurts you, we shouldn't do this."

Of course. But if you're going to answer like that, the question shouldn't be "what are ethics and morals based on?", but "how do humans decide what hurts others and what doesn't?" to get a complete answer from you. Your answer would be the same answer as someone who is religious anyway.