Without Religion?

[heavy_rasengan]

Is religion the number one cause for war or the number one excuse?
If religion didn't exist, would the world be a better place or would people start to depend on other excuses to substitute for religion?

[2Shea]

Is religion the number one cause for war or the number one excuse?
If religion didn't exist, would the world be a better place or would people start to depend on other excuses to substitute for religion?

Well I do think that religion does spark a lot of wars, but yeah of course, its not the root cause of war.

If the world didn't have religion would it be without war? Simply put, No. Because as you said, people would still find other reasons to fight, they always do. Its just the way things are sadly.

Do I think the world would be a better place without religion? Hmm.. that's hard to say. But do I think it would be worse? No.


And no, I'm not a religious person. So I'm not trying to support or put down religion in this lol.

[dreams lie]

Do you mean like now or it never existed to begin with? If you mean now, we would have generally positive side effects (wars, religious genocide, etc etc) with some negative thrown in. I still see religion as a system of beliefs that helps comfort humans and who knows what might happen if that system is removed. Our society might end up being far more pessimistic. However, if it never existed to begin with, then that means centuries of dogma and ignorance would be replaced with the development of science. We might have gone into the space age by 1500's instead of 1950's.

[GrimaH]

Or we might never have managed to develop moral systems or academic schools, and eventually stayed as barbarians.
Religion did play a crucial role in introducing ethics, morals, and logic in ancient civilisations which we wouldn't have got to this stage without.

[Saufsoldat]

Or we might never have managed to develop moral systems or academic schools, and eventually stayed as barbarians.
Religion did play a crucial role in introducing ethics, morals, and logic in ancient civilisations which we wouldn't have got to this stage without.

Wrong :scry so wrong :scry

Please don't tell me that you actually believe that religion is responsible for morals or ethics.

In ancient civilizations educated people didn't believe in god. Especially in greece most scholars knew that their gods were fake as hell.


Religion might have had its advantages back then since people didn't have much else to do but nowadays... well we have a multitude of pastimes and religion is just one of them (and a boring one, too).

[dreams lie]

Or we might never have managed to develop moral systems or academic schools, and eventually stayed as barbarians.
Religion did play a crucial role in introducing ethics, morals, and logic in ancient civilisations which we wouldn't have got to this stage without.

Ugh, what logic? Religion depends mostly on faith which is

being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I would agree that religion had some part in the early development of science, via observations and analyses, but like Saufsoldat stated above, the ancient Greeks acknowledged that the universe was ran by natural laws, not by Gods. Besides, look at the ancient Chinese civilizations. In our sense, they were atheists yet they progressed quickly and had a complex system of morals, ethics, and reasoning. I remember an article that spoke of how a primitive version of the scientific method existed in China long before the Scientific Revolution in the West. Ancient China had multiple academic schools as well. I admit, China fell behind the West during the Industrial Revolution, but that is far after the Scientific Revolution. By that point, dogma wasn't in strict control.

[GrimaH]

Perhaps I used the wrong word there :awesome

I meant religion gave a huge boost to academic pursuit in ancient civilisations.

Also, the Chinese can be really, uh, creatively dumb with their superstitions :awesome
They do put pursuit of reasoning very high on the priority list though.

[dreams lie]

Perhaps I used the wrong word there :awesome

I meant religion gave a huge boost to academic pursuit in ancient civilisations.

Also, the Chinese can be really, uh, creatively dumb with their superstitions :awesome
They do put pursuit of reasoning very high on the priority list though.

Boost to academic pursuit? Such as? Examples? Going back to morals, we don't need religion to recognize what is right and what is wrong. I forgot to type it in despite thinking about it.

And yes, the Chinese had very creative superstitions. But that's folk religion, basically beliefs, superstitions and rituals believed/performed by each little specific community or culture. It's more like paganism then a real religion.

[mortal]

Do you mean like now or it never existed to begin with? If you mean now, we would have generally positive side effects (wars, religious genocide, etc etc) with some negative thrown in. I still see religion as a system of beliefs that helps comfort humans and who knows what might happen if that system is removed. Our society might end up being far more pessimistic. However, if it never existed to begin with, then that means centuries of dogma and ignorance would be replaced with the development of science. We might have gone into the space age by 1500's instead of 1950's.


Mind you centuries of ignorance in Europe (if your referring to Dark Ages).

[GrimaH]

Boost to academic pursuit? Such as? Examples?

Bible studies. :del

Going back to morals, we don't need religion to recognize what is right and what is wrong. I forgot to type it in despite thinking about it.

Not now we don't.
But for uncivilised low-IQ brutes thousands of years ago who had 0 education level...

And yes, the Chinese had very creative superstitions. But that's folk religion, basically beliefs, superstitions and rituals believed/performed by each little specific community or culture. It's more like paganism then a real religion.

True.

[dreams lie]

Bible studies. :del.

Yeah, I walked straight into that one. :facepalm

Not now we don't.
But for uncivilised low-IQ brutes thousands of years ago who had 0 education level...


No matter how uneducated, the people would have known that
Murder = baaaad. Hurting others = baaaaad. Stealing = baaaaad.

I don't know, I always thought that while there were less laws and they didn't pay as much attention to their morals / principles as we do now, I thought that humans had morals without needing it to be taught to them. I assumed morals were rather instinctive.

[Karma]

Going back to morals, we don't need religion to recognize what is right and what is wrong.

I find it funny how someone can say that because our humanity right now was built of religion many years ago.. So now you want to remove something thats almost been here since the start of civilization maybe not in forms like we have now in the present but people did have it.

The hard cold truth is without religion humans would find something else to believe in again.. some think religion causes war.. I am actually one of those who think that but even if we get rid of religion humans will end up finding another pointless reason to start a war.

[Saufsoldat]

I find it funny how someone can say that because our humanity right now was built of religion many years ago.. So now you want to remove something thats almost been here since the start of civilization maybe not in forms like we have now in the present but people did have it.

Who tells you that religion has been around for such a long time? Without morals community is impossible, let alone society. So even animals would need to be religious. If they aren't, what keeps them from killing each other and extincting their own species?

The hard cold truth is without religion humans would find something else to believe in again.. some think religion causes war.. I am actually one of those who think that but even if we get rid of religion humans will end up finding another pointless reason to start a war.

But they'll have one less reason. One less huge reason. It's like saying "I don't use condoms because AIDS will find another way to infect me" :apathy

[Goodfellow]

Hard to say really, as religion has affected society pretty throughly through history. Furthermore, is it still affecting us, or could we have it removed?

Also, would've had religion some time, and then have it disappear, or did we never have it?

[GrimaH]

Wrong :scry so wrong :scry

Please don't tell me that you actually believe that religion is responsible for morals or ethics.

In ancient civilizations educated people didn't believe in god. Especially in greece most scholars knew that their gods were fake as hell.

Hinduism in India, and later Taoism/Confucianism (though the latter's arguably a philosophy) in China, and Buddhism in both.
And the Abrahamic religions in the West.
To clarify, I'm not saying they're responsible for creating ethics/morals, but they were instrumental in developing and spreading advanced moral codes to the majority of mankind in the past.

[Saufsoldat]

Hinduism in India, and later Taoism/Confucianism (though the latter's arguably a philosophy) in China, and Buddhism in both.
And the Abrahamic religions in the West.
To clarify, I'm not saying they're responsible for creating ethics/morals, but they were instrumental in developing and spreading advanced moral codes to the majority of mankind in the past.

Yes, advanced (and unnecessary) morals. The basic morals are the same in every culture, regardless of religion.

[Karma]

No matter how uneducated, the people would have known that Murder = baaaad. Hurting others = baaaaad. Stealing = baaaaad.


Well here is where your more wrong on that one let me split it up into sections for you.

Murder - Yea it is bad but thats also very broad.. some might use murder as a way to protect someone also murder will always exist as long as anger exists.

Hurting others Part 1 - Some use torture as a form of getting secrets to protect their country from some also use it for pleasure and just enjoy torture.

Hurting others Part 2 - Hurting peoples feelings this will also exist as long as anger exists and jealousy or just to do it so that person hurting the other one feels better and stronger.

Stealing - Well stealing is bad? There are exceptions such as a poor starving child in a 3rd world country to try to steal some food from a market place. Or stealing such as bank, and hacking things for cash or other objects. Well human greed will always exist as long as things are being invented we always feel the "want" for something.

The 3 things you listed are the some of the most important human instincts.

[GrimaH]

Yes, advanced (and unnecessary) morals.

Which in cases like Ancient India was the foundation for their law.
Also, doesn't modern law has its origins in religious moral codes?

The basic morals are the same in every culture, regardless of religion.

What kind of basic morals?

[dreams lie]

I find it funny how someone can say that because our humanity right now was built of religion many years ago.. So now you want to remove something thats almost been here since the start of civilization maybe not in forms like we have now in the present but people did have it.

The hard cold truth is without religion humans would find something else to believe in again.. some think religion causes war.. I am actually one of those who think that but even if we get rid of religion humans will end up finding another pointless reason to start a war.

Did you bother reading the thread? It's very much possible to have a society without religion. I used the ancient Chinese civilization as an example of a thriving society without the need for religion. If it wasn't for the Industrial Revolution or the ignorance of past rulers, they might very well still remain one of the greatest civilizations.

Religion DOES cause war. I'm not saying it's the main cause of war because there are multiple reasons for war, but religion and ideologies has often produced the most bloody wars in history. As long as the people remain logical or the illogical belief stays far away from politics and science, I don't much care that humans would find something else.

Well here is where your more wrong on that one let me split it up into sections for you.

Murder - Yea it is bad but thats also very broad.. some might use murder as a way to protect someone also murder will always exist as long as anger exists.

Hurting others Part 1 - Some use torture as a form of getting secrets to protect their country from some also use it for pleasure and just enjoy torture.

Hurting others Part 2 - Hurting peoples feelings this will also exist as long as anger exists and jealousy or just to do it so that person hurting the other one feels better and stronger.

Stealing - Well stealing is bad? There are exceptions such as a poor starving child in a 3rd world country to try to steal some food from a market place. Or stealing such as bank, and hacking things for cash or other objects. Well human greed will always exist as long as things are being invented we always feel the "want" for something.

The 3 things you listed are the some of the most important human instincts.



Augggghhhhh. It was just an analogy. Don't take it so literal. Morals and principles differ from person to person. I was just making a simple analogy.


Hinduism in India, and later Taoism/Confucianism (though the latter's arguably a philosophy) in China, and Buddhism in both.
And the Abrahamic religions in the West.
To clarify, I'm not saying they're responsible for creating ethics/morals, but they were instrumental in developing and spreading advanced moral codes to the majority of mankind in the past.

Spreading and developing advanced moral codes to the mass majority. Eh. I suppose, but I still believe that morals and principles are instinctive and doesn't require someone preaching it to you. Some ancient laws was based on religious morals, but I find it hard to believe that a society wouldn't be civilized without religion. All in all, the little benefits of religion in our history came with far more harm.

[Karma]

I got this thread mixed up with the other one about people being religious man these are like the same threads different names.

[AbnormallyNormal]

the underlying reasons that make people invent religions would need to be resolved first, if you just try to ban religion like in the USSR a) it wont work and b) it will cause other probz

[Saufsoldat]

Which in cases like Ancient India was the foundation for their law.
Also, doesn't modern law has its origins in religious moral codes?

Law almost always has its origins in leaders' needs for order among their people. If religion helps keeping them in line - fine.

What kind of basic morals?

In every society, bigger than about a hurdred people, there are basic morals like no murder, no stealing, no fighting without a reason, obeying the chief.