19-Year Old Saudi Rape Victim Ordered to Undergo 200 Lashes [Archive]

Taelae

11-15-2007, 06:08 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311848,00.html (Details)

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A 19-year-old female victim of gang rape who initially was ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail for telling her story to the news media.

The new verdict was handed down by Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council following a retrial, the Arab News reported.

The court last year sentenced the six heavily-armed men who carried out the attack against the Shiite woman to between one and five years for committing the crime.

But the judges had decided to punish the woman further for "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," a court source told the Arab News.

The new verdict issued on Wednesday also toughened the sentences against the six men to between two and nine years in prison.

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.

The case has angered members of Saudi Arabia's Shiite community. The convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state.

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:notrust

Willaien

11-15-2007, 06:08 PM

Ridiculous.

Almost as bad as the guy who was caught with a 14-year old. Guy gets off with nothing, girl gets lashes.

Skotty

11-15-2007, 06:09 PM

A punishment for the victim?
Saudi Arabia, seriously, what the fuck.

Cardboard Jewsuke

11-15-2007, 06:10 PM

She should have been happy she just got lashings and not a hanging like so many other poor rape victims over there.

Oh well, they just can't win.

Ketchup

11-15-2007, 06:12 PM

Lol Saudi Arabia.

Strict Islamic doctrine <3

Moonshine

11-15-2007, 06:12 PM

I really don't understand some cultures....the victim was punished???

Cardboard Jewsuke

11-15-2007, 06:19 PM

Forum timer just blew up again.

Megaharrison

11-15-2007, 06:20 PM

The Religion of peace strikes again.

Edit: WTF is with this threads timewarp?!

Willaien

11-15-2007, 06:20 PM

Forum timer just blew up again.

Pretty hardcore, at that.

Denji

11-15-2007, 06:21 PM

For fuck's sake. Punishing the victim?:facepalm

Outlandish

11-15-2007, 06:26 PM

these saudi's......

Karma

11-15-2007, 06:30 PM

Here we go again... Am I gonna have to explain Islam to all these idiots in the NF Cafe?

Willaien

11-15-2007, 06:31 PM

Here we go again... Am I gonna have to explain Islam to all these idiots in the NF Cafe?

You'd accomplish more, in the end, if you'd explain it to the evil bastards that did this atrocity.

Black Wraith

11-15-2007, 06:34 PM

Byakkö

11-15-2007, 06:37 PM

I am beginning to hate the muslim world, their logic, or lack thereof, astounds me more and more. :notrust

Sean Connery

11-15-2007, 06:37 PM

For fuck's sake. Punishing the victim?:facepalm

yeah I know, it's like WTF

Black Wraith

11-15-2007, 06:38 PM

I am beginning to hate the muslim world, their logic, or lack thereof, astounds me more and more. :notrust

Did you not read what I posted? or are you just plain stupid?

tinhamodic

11-15-2007, 06:40 PM

I was gonna say what happened to the link and article! Anyway, that's so messed up!

Willaien

11-15-2007, 06:40 PM

Arishem

11-15-2007, 06:40 PM

Thank God I don't live under a theocracy. :notrust

Cardboard Jewsuke

11-15-2007, 06:42 PM

OK, we have to tell you this everytime:

THIS IS NOT ISLAM!

These are Saudi's who know less about Islam then the average Westerner.

So stop fucking saying that Islam this Islam that and start saying Saudi this and Saudi this.

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.

Did you even read the article? or do you just pull shit out your ass?

Arishem

11-15-2007, 06:44 PM

This is off topic, but has anyone else noticed massive timewarps with their posts?

Circe

11-15-2007, 06:45 PM

This is not a true representation of the followers of Islam. This is stupidity.

Black Wraith

11-15-2007, 06:54 PM

Did you even read the article? or do you just pull shit out your ass?

How abou you actually go and look at Islamic laws in the actual books.

Outlandish

11-15-2007, 07:00 PM

She should have been happy she just got lashings and not a hanging or stoning like so many other poor rape victims over there.

Oh well, they just can't win.

she wasnt punished because she was raped.

she was punished because she was in someone else's car or something like that.

and if every rape victim was punished you would hear about it more.

lol time warp :D

These saudi's are crazy.

Jagon Fox

11-15-2007, 07:06 PM

stupid pieces of no good shit. Wtf is wrong with them . I hope they get theirs sometime soon. you don't punish the fucking victim you punish the criminals. gods what dark ages thinking! fucking morons!

She should have been happy she just got lashings and not a hanging or stoning like so many other poor rape victims over there.

Oh well, they just can't win.

no fuck that! these people need to get their asses out of the dark ages into the modern world, and learn a little something called human compassion.

Cardboard Jewsuke

11-15-2007, 07:14 PM

she wasnt punished because she was raped.

she was punished because she was in someone else's car or something like that.

and if every rape victim was punished you would hear about it more.

lol time warp :D

These saudi's are crazy.

But they were not very specific on how she got there. They could have easily kidnapped her, then raped her in the car.

She is still being punished for being in a car (probobly agaisnt her will).

How abou you actually go and look at Islamic laws in the actual books.

I'm on it. Or do you care to elaborate instead of jsut being very vague on the subject and dodging the issue.

Are these things not "against the rules" according to the islamic faith? And it's just the governments dolling out unfair punishments for the crimes?

Outlandish

11-15-2007, 07:15 PM

But they were not very specific on how she got there. They could have easily kidnapped her, then raped her in the car.

She is still being punished for being in a car (probobly agaisnt her will).

Yet she was punished for something else, not for being a rape victim though the events are questionable. It was probably a corrupt court or something.

I wouldn't be surprised Saudi is the land of corrupt.

no fuck that! these people need to get their asses out of the dark ages into the modern world, and learn a little something called human compassion.

to bad i don't think this will ever happen :cry

Jagon Fox

11-15-2007, 07:19 PM

Yet she was punished for something else, not for being a rape victim though the events are questionable. It was probably a corrupt court or something.

I wouldn't be surprised Saudi is the land of corrupt.

to bad i don't think this will ever happen :cry

well i'd like to hope that it would, europe pulled it's head out of it's ass, and out of the dark ages. if they can do it so can fucking saudi arabia. I feel for the woman, getting raped by a bunch of men and getting whipped on top of that.

Edo

11-15-2007, 07:19 PM

Oh, but Saudia Arabia is a dear friend of the US...human rights here are NOT an issue...

The Space Cowboy

11-15-2007, 07:21 PM

Seriously, that's majorly fuckled uppers

Cardboard Jewsuke

11-15-2007, 07:21 PM

no fuck that! these people need to get their asses out of the dark ages into the modern world, and learn a little something called human compassion.

What about sweat shops in inpovershed nations, what about the illegal sex slave trade, what about China selling organs from people it basically murdered.

This shit is horrible, but is definatly not the only, or arguably biggest, problem.

It would be wonderful if all these thigns dissapeared, but expecting it is just a pipe dream.

Jagon Fox

11-15-2007, 07:35 PM

What about sweat shops in inpovershed nations, what about the illegal sex slave trade, what about China selling organs from people it basically murdered.

This shit is horrible, but is definatly not the only, or arguably biggest, problem.

It would be wonderful if all these thigns dissapeared, but expecting it is just a pipe dream.

not neccesarily, punishing rape victims, and human trafficking is a far cry from sweat shops in impoverished nations, or illegal organs. not all of the world does these things.

Jin-E

11-15-2007, 07:41 PM

OK, we have to tell you this everytime:

THIS IS NOT ISLAM!

These are Saudi's who know less about Islam then the average Westerner.

So stop fucking saying that Islam this Islam that and start saying Saudi this and Saudi this.

You cant really blame them for making that connection though. S.A was the place where the Prophet Muhammed operated and also the place where its two holiest sites are. Its the place you do Hadjj, You cant be a citizen if you arent a Muslim etc.

People view Saudi Arabia's connection to Islam in the same way as people view the Vaticans connection to Christianity.

Ennoea

11-15-2007, 07:43 PM

Saudis:facepalm

They need to seriously use their brains and as Black Fenix already said these people actually have no clue about Islam. They're shameful.

sarun uchiha

11-15-2007, 07:44 PM

I am beginning to hate the muslim world, their logic, or lack thereof, astounds me more and more. :notrust
Don't judge Muslims by this!
I knew a lot of good and well-natured Muslims!
This is off topic, but has anyone else noticed massive timewarps with their posts?
Damn these time warps!
Yet she was punished for something else, not for being a rape victim though the events are questionable. It was probably a corrupt court or something.

I wouldn't be surprised Saudi is the land of corrupt.
Actually, Saudi isn't corrupt because they follow their Sharai laws to the foot!
We may call Saudi, the land of religious zealots!

The Sentry

11-15-2007, 07:53 PM

Yo guys ur forgetting that Christianity is even worse and most dangerous omg no way

Outlandish

11-15-2007, 07:54 PM

Don't judge Muslims by this!
I knew a lot of good and well-natured Muslims!

you knew ? What happend did u kill them all :laugh

Damn these time warps!

i know it's annoying :wtf

Actually, Saudi isn't corrupt because they follow their Sharai laws to the foot!
We may call Saudi, the land of religious zealots!

Actually that depends in islam you can't have more than 3 wives where as the King has like 200 odd i don't believe they follow the Shariah by the Foot

anyway i got a question for you BF what school of thought do they follow the Saudi's that is.

FrostXian

11-15-2007, 08:01 PM

Are these things not "against the rules" according to the islamic faith? And it's just the governments dolling out unfair punishments for the crimes?

Eh, let me just put it out for you in an objective point of view.
Islam is very suitable to be manipulated, just like every other religion. If the government wants to lash a woman, they can just point something random from the book and go with it.
Islam is a tool for them, not reason.

Cecil

11-15-2007, 08:05 PM

I really don't get some cultures, why does the victim get punished, it just doesn't make any real sense.

Goongasnootch

11-15-2007, 08:07 PM

OK, we have to tell you this everytime:

THIS IS NOT ISLAM!

These are Saudi's who know less about Islam then the average Westerner.

So stop fucking saying that Islam this Islam that and start saying Saudi this and Saudi this.

Islam. Saudi. I don't give a fuck. This is one of those situations where I wish I had the resources to go all Metal Gear Solid on the prison, break her out, destroy Metal Gear :P, and take her to a little place I like to call the USA.

id_1948

11-15-2007, 08:09 PM

Isnt this the same Saudi were the king and all his entourage were given a red carpet treatment when they visited Britain 3 weeks ago??? If I remember they were even given a royal welcome by the Queen and a welcome by the prime minister in the house of commons
Isnt the king also called a personal friend of the american prez and a great man!!!

Many muslims abhor the saudi regimes mentality that has nothing to do with islam and everything to do with backwardness... Most of their laws dont even make islamic sense.... women cant drive!!! not allowing other religons in saudi arabi or somewhere for them to worship among other things....

I feel sorry for the people living there... Its difficult to stand up to a repressive regime that is given full support by the most powerful nations and also given billions of dollars in weaponary to control their own people (among other things)...

Twilit

11-15-2007, 08:51 PM

Yo guys ur forgetting that Christianity is even worse and most dangerous omg no way
Are you mentally unstable?

Last time I checked, Christians haven't done much as far as murdering and praise-to-rape goes.

...Dipshit...

drache

11-15-2007, 08:58 PM

You gotta love our supposed allies in the war on terror.

Never mind they are just as bad as the extremists in many ways.

I'm not surprised but I am disappointed and for the reccord you can't pick and choose, if you're going to blame Islam for this then people should start blaming Christainity for alot of the US's recent behavior.

Me, I just recognize that some people just love power too much and have too much of an inferority complex to not be able to control others.

The Sentry

11-15-2007, 09:03 PM

Are you mentally unstable?

Last time I checked, Christians haven't done much as far as murdering and praise-to-rape goes.

...Dipshit...

I was being sarcastic FOOL.

drache

11-15-2007, 09:06 PM

I was being sarcastic FOOL.

Actually there are plenty of things Christainity has done wrong or things Christainity has been used to support that frankly it shouldn't have.

For example Christainity was at one point used to support slavery and to this day there are sects that try and use the bible to support thier misogyny.

So sure let's drag out any of the things that Islam has been used to support it should not but in fairness let's do the same for Christainity too.

sarun uchiha

11-15-2007, 09:11 PM

you knew ? What happend did u kill them all :laugh
:facepalm
no!
Actually that depends in islam you can't have more than 3 wives where as the King has like 200 odd i don't believe they follow the Shariah by the Foot

anyway i got a question for you BF what school of thought do they follow the Saudi's that is.
I am not a Professor on theocracy, so I might be wrong!
I think their school of thought is religion first or something!
And I think Saudis allow 4 wives but I am wrong about them following Sharia to the foot! My bad!

Ennoea

11-15-2007, 09:23 PM

I was being sarcastic FOOL.

Internet is the wrong place for sarcasm.

mister_manji

11-15-2007, 09:42 PM

that country would be nothing without oil.

Girls' Generation

11-15-2007, 09:45 PM

I believe 50 lashes will kill the person.

Valtieri

11-15-2007, 09:48 PM

I'm not racist, I generally hate everyone not just a certain race.
But come on!
ffs, Saudi Arabia is the biggest fuck up on this planet, i honestly want a lot of people in that country dead. Which is not healthy..

WindMaster

11-15-2007, 09:50 PM

ugh just reading the article made me feel like puking, what person gets away with beating a girl and then having sex with her???

Megaharrison

11-15-2007, 09:52 PM

Actually there are plenty of things Christainity has done wrong or things Christainity has been used to support that frankly it shouldn't have.

For example Christainity was at one point used to support slavery and to this day there are sects that try and use the bible to support thier misogyny.

So sure let's drag out any of the things that Islam has been used to support it should not but in fairness let's do the same for Christainity too.

LOL! Did you just try to justify Islam by bringing up slavery? The Islamic slave trade was the largest in human history, and to this day still goes on.

And why should Christianity be blamed for U.S. actions? There is no legal statement within the U.S. constitution that states Christian principles or law will influence government in any way, quite the opposite actually. U.S. government officials being devout Christians does not mean that the U.S. is a Christian theocracy, there's simply no legal evidence that such a situation exists. Saudi Arabia and Islam however, are a combined entity. King Abdullah himself has the title of the Custodian of the two mosques and the nation has Sharia and Wahhahbi law.

And yeah, we get it. Christianity did bad things in the 1000's. The Crusades were indeed a bad thing, though the Muslims tried the exact same thing about 300 years prior (See the Battle of Tours). Their modern day crimes however are limited to butt bumping alter boys, and can not compare to the human rights abuses of the Islamic World. Both against their own people and non-Islamic nations.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, and Sudan have all claimed to be theocracies at one point or another, or currently are Islamic theocracies. All of the above nations, have been some of the most vicious regimes in modern times. It amazes me that Islamic law is supposed to be so wonderful, progressive, and peaceful....Yet every time it is implemented the result is barbarism fit for the 1400s.

Amnesia

11-15-2007, 10:03 PM

Separation of church mosque and state? Why yes, please! :awesome

But honestly, things like this have been going on for a lot longer than just this one case. Not surprised just very sad once again. Stricter adherence to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as proposed by the UN would be wonderful in the absence of religious morality. I feel so very sad for this girl seeing how she's exactly my age and facing horrors that I hope I'll never know and wish she, as well as the many other women on this planet, did not have to. :(

drache

11-15-2007, 10:04 PM

LOL! Did you just try to justify Islam by bringing up slavery? The Islamic slave trade was the largest in human history, and to this day still goes on.

And why should Christianity be blamed for U.S. actions? There is no legal statement within the U.S. constitution that states Christian principles or law will influence government in any way, quite the opposite actually. U.S. government officials being devout Christians does not mean that the U.S. is a Christian theocracy, there's simply no legal evidence that such a situation exists. Saudi Arabia and Islam however, are a combined entity. King Abdullah himself has the title of the Custodian of the two mosques and the nation has Sharia and Wahhahbi law.

And yeah, we get it. Christianity did bad things in the 1000's. The Crusades were indeed a bad thing, though the Muslims tried the exact same thing about 300 years prior (See the Battle of Tours). Their modern day crimes however are limited to butt bumping alter boys, and can not compare to the human rights abuses of the Islamic World. Both against their own people and non-Islamic nations.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, and Sudan have all claimed to be theocracies at one point or another, or currently are Islamic theocracies. All of the above nations, have been some of the most vicious regimes in modern times. It amazes me that Islamic law is supposed to be so wonderful, progressive, and peaceful....Yet every time it is implemented the result is barbarism fit for the 1400s.

Learn to read, I said if we want to start bringing up teh bad things about Islam let's do so about Christainity.

Christainity is STILL used by many to justify hatred towards homosexuals and women.

Priests have been protected from law suits and prosecution for thier pedophila by being moved and and then moved again (when they repeat what they did).

Christanity is still used to justify hatred of people just because they disagree over beliefs.

Christanity in the US also hypocritically wants to be a part of the goverment but god forbid that any other religion try. (and you want proof? try the christain prefernce programs that Bush created).

So it's not like Christainity is a shining example either.

Silvermyst

11-15-2007, 10:09 PM

I'm afraid I can't follow their line of thinking. This is one of those cultural things that just make me sad.

Karma

11-15-2007, 10:29 PM

Gaawa-chan

11-15-2007, 11:47 PM

Ugh... Saudi Arabia is so much worse than Iraq and Iran combined.
The only reason we haven't done anything about the scumbags is because of the oil.
Damn it.

Megaharrison, you ought to know that there are many Christians who support slavery in the name of The Bible, including members of Christ Church.
I don't understand why people seem to think that Christianity is so much better than any other faith as far as equality and such go.

spaZ

11-16-2007, 03:06 AM

Those country's really need to brush up on there people skills lol.

Pilaf

11-16-2007, 03:17 AM

There can be no peace until we have a world without the poison of religion.

Toby

11-16-2007, 03:23 AM

Guys, please stop flame-baiting. I would respect your opinions if you could just for once put something more than a single philosophical teaching into a discussion.

So, when I clap my hands and count to three, let me see some magic. This thread deserves some interesting input since one side is claiming that Islam is to blame, and those who are Muslims here are saying it isn't.

How about somebody explains to me why it is the case that this is Islam's fault, and those of the other opinions explain why they think this is not so. Because, first of all, those blaming Islam need to prove it, or their statements are just as full of air and fluff as those proposing that an invisible man lives in the sky and always is in the need of money.

But I am the only one who can paraphrase George Carlin. Oh, and Tsukiyomi too, but that is our privilege.

niyesuH

11-16-2007, 03:27 AM

fucking stupid..

x602-NyteFall

11-16-2007, 03:32 AM

Jesus Christ, what the hell is wrong with some countries out there today? That's fucking horrible, she just got raped and now she has to be hurt even more than she already has been for it?

adil

11-16-2007, 03:47 AM

to be fair she wouldnt have been raped had she followed orders

xingzup19

11-16-2007, 07:19 AM

But what if she was dragged into the car with them? It was against her will, and yet she gets punished for it. The rapists instead get a couple of more years on their sentence.

I don't get it. Drug dealers get beheaded, and yet rapists only get sent to jail.

maximilyan

11-16-2007, 07:27 AM

Wtf? ok... so she gets raped... and for her troubles 90 lashes? then when she tells her story more punishment? Women from saudi most have it really rough

Sean Connery

11-16-2007, 08:37 AM

this is why I hate there culture

Black Wraith

11-16-2007, 08:53 AM

Actually, Saudi isn't corrupt because they follow their Sharai laws to the foot!
We may call Saudi, the land of religious zealots!
I study Islam in nearly all the aspects, so trust me when I say that Saudi does not evan come close to following the Sharia.

If they did follow the Sharia the King, some Judges and some rich people would be dead for some of the things they do.

sadated_peon

11-16-2007, 09:41 AM

I study Islam in nearly all the aspects, so trust me when I say that Saudi does not evan come close to following the Sharia.

If they did follow the Sharia the King, some Judges and some rich people would be dead for some of the things they do.

The clause that it is referring to that is against Shaira law is "Tawajed" or "Tahseen Al Ma'asiya" which is basically "sharing a closed place and encouraging sin even though they shared no relationship."

So they were following Shaira law in this case, even if the don't always do it. Therefore they were following a law derived from the Islamic religion.

drache

11-16-2007, 09:51 AM

to be fair she wouldnt have been raped had she followed orders

:huh

That's like saying she deserved it. Please explain to me how you think that works and after you're done I'm going to hit you with a book. Why? 'Because you deserve it'

Black Wraith

11-16-2007, 10:15 AM

The clause that it is referring to that is against Shaira law is "Tawajed" or "Tahseen Al Ma'asiya" which is basically "sharing a closed place and encouraging sin even though they shared no relationship."

So they were following Shaira law in this case, even if the don't always do it. Therefore they were following a law derived from the Islamic religion.

Being in an enclosed space with another person is not a sin in the sense that yooy get punnished for it by the courts.

I don't know what Tawajed means but Tahseen Ul Ma'asiya means to make a sin (Ma'asi) to be good (Tahseen).

sadated_peon

11-16-2007, 10:21 AM

Being in an enclosed space with another person is not a sin in the sense that yooy get punnished for it by the courts.

I don't know what Tawajed means but Tahseen Ul Ma'asiya means to make a sin (Ma'asi) to be good (Tahseen).

Here is some more information for you

"Dr Khalifa Rashid Al Sha'ali, Dean of the Faculty of Law at Ajman University, said if a man and a woman who are not related are caught alone in a private place, they face a jail sentence or lashes even if they were not involved in any suspicious act."
http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/03/24/10027928.html

This is talking about the UAE, but it the same law.

Traveler

11-16-2007, 10:38 AM

You must be kidding me :facepalm...

masterriku

11-16-2007, 10:55 AM

There can be no peace until we have a world without the poison of religion.

I whole heartedly agree with that statement.

sadated_peon

11-16-2007, 11:01 AM

I whole heartedly agree with that statement.

Albert Einstein - "So long as there are men, there will be wars."

Sean Connery

11-16-2007, 02:34 PM

I whole heartedly agree with that statement.

I'm gonna second that one

Kira

11-16-2007, 02:44 PM

Oh, but Saudia Arabia is a dear friend of the US...human rights here are NOT an issue...
This is the truth. Therefore, not much will be made of this. Now, if this happened in Iran, then it'll be a whole different story.

xingzup19

11-16-2007, 02:44 PM

I'll third it!

Snowblind

11-16-2007, 04:33 PM

Saudi Arabia, the land of MOTHERFUCKING BARBARIANS.

Honestly, what the motherSCREWFUCKING hell is this supposed to be?

OBBeauti

11-16-2007, 05:15 PM

Just something different. If that's what floats there boat then ok.

sarun uchiha

11-16-2007, 05:57 PM

First of all, this should be condemned as a barbaric punishment!
Lashes for victim should be banned and international community should press the Saudi rulers to change this law!
Of course they have economic weapon of oil, but if we let this go, we are just as good as silently agreeing to this!

There can be no peace until we have a world without the poison of religion.
As long as man (and woman) exists, there will be always religions!
to be fair she wouldnt have been raped had she followed orders
Don't blame the victim!
She was only with a friend (who was also raped and he is guy, according to New York Times today)!
But what if she was dragged into the car with them? It was against her will, and yet she gets punished for it. The rapists instead get a couple of more years on their sentence.

I don't get it. Drug dealers get beheaded, and yet rapists only get sent to jail.
Both rapists and drug dealers should be beheaded!
I study Islam in nearly all the aspects, so trust me when I say that Saudi does not evan come close to following the Sharia.

If they did follow the Sharia the King, some Judges and some rich people would be dead for some of the things they do.
I am sorry!
That post of mine was a mistake on my part!

erictheking

11-16-2007, 06:26 PM

The Saudi system is in a word, evil. The victim usually gets executed in these cases.

heavy_rasengan

11-16-2007, 06:30 PM

Saudi Arabian Law is fucked up and is not even close to the essence of Islam. If someone wants to compare saudi arabian law with Islamic law, then bring evidence from the holy Quran not other people. So victims are being inhumanely treated and women rights are close to nothing, usually the U.S has something to say about something so evil but whats wrong this time? Oh yeah, the U.S is Saudis best friend because of the great oil!!! Thats the American government for you!

sarun uchiha

11-16-2007, 06:48 PM

I really feel sad for what is happening to that girl!
She haven't lashed yet, so I hope International Community steps in and pressurize the Saudi Arabia from doing this to her!

Cel3stial

11-16-2007, 07:00 PM

Messed up country right thar....

Raiden

11-16-2007, 07:03 PM

A punishment for the victim?
Saudi Arabia, seriously, what the fuck.

This is why the US tries to make others use a democratic government, some foreign governments can sometimes make bazaar decsions. The US still doesn't has a right for doing so but atleast you now understand the method to our madness.

The Sentry

11-16-2007, 07:52 PM

Wow so this is the religion of peace. Ima study the Quran and find out if Islam is sum bs crappy cheap version of christianity, a religion of hate, and war, and death or a religion of peace

Crayons

11-16-2007, 08:23 PM

I really can't understand Saudi's justice system.

Naruto12805

11-16-2007, 08:32 PM

sarun uchiha

11-16-2007, 08:35 PM

you would think the girls there would know to keep there mouths shut by now.... Or at least go to a civilized country where the people arent a bunch of sexist idiots.. But dang she is going to have one soar apple red bottom... :nod

I don't think they will hit her bottom and the person who administers the whipping has to hold Koran under his arm!
Still, this is cruel and should be stopped!

Omega037

11-16-2007, 09:15 PM

We actually don't have the right to dictate what is acceptable or not in other cultures. And trying to force change before a culture is ready can have negative effects. Furthermore, this woman was aware of the law and broke it. This isn't a case of police seeking her out or arresting her for no reason.

We ourselves have laws that seem obvious to us morally but could be found offensive by others. Some cultures would find the number of homeless people we have, our problems with drugs and health care, and the psychological disorders caused by an "image" society to be disgusting.

sarun uchiha

11-16-2007, 09:38 PM

Savior

11-16-2007, 11:16 PM

This is not a true representation of the followers of Islam. This is stupidity.

Yup. It makes me wonder what is really going on in saudi arabia sometimes.:(

Casyle

11-16-2007, 11:48 PM

Reminds me of that story I heard on... Discovery? Same place too. This unmarried, under-age woman was raped by a much older man. She was hung and he got something like 10 lashes.

Xion

11-17-2007, 12:20 AM

Saudi Arabia, it's backwards! Done right!

I am starting to wonder whether the only country in the region with an ounce of sense is the UAE, or is that crazy as well?

Sean Connery

11-17-2007, 04:01 AM

there just plain crazy

Supreme Alchemist Fan

11-17-2007, 04:11 AM

Saudi sounds like a pretty homo place.

Sean Connery

11-17-2007, 04:26 AM

Saudi sounds like a pretty homo place.

agreed .

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 07:18 AM

Ukkitake Kakashi

11-17-2007, 07:20 AM

What do you expect from such a messed up country, the only thing that's protects them is America's oil interests.

Levi

11-17-2007, 07:27 AM

I sense a new Apple product coming up...

The iSlam.

T4R0K

11-17-2007, 10:28 AM

We actually don't have the right to dictate what is acceptable or not in other cultures. And trying to force change before a culture is ready can have negative effects. Furthermore, this woman was aware of the law and broke it. This isn't a case of police seeking her out or arresting her for no reason.

OK, you people may deny yourself the right to dictate them, but then, do I ? I'm a muslim and think they're idiots and make me wonder how come I share the same religion as them ? I should have the right to tell them they're fuckheads, right ? But you're not muslim so you can't ? Com'on...

Reminds me of Mr Harrisson being able to say the word f**, because he's one and the hets like me only get the bleep when we say it...

HyperKnuckles22

11-17-2007, 10:40 AM

give me one more more reason why religion makes me want to barf.

heavy_rasengan

11-17-2007, 11:55 AM

give me one more more reason why religion makes me want to barf.

Well, your gonna be getting alot more reasons because religion is gonna stick around until the end of time.

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 12:18 PM

give me one more more reason why religion makes me want to barf.

*offers medicine*

Edo

11-17-2007, 01:58 PM

to be fair she wouldnt have been raped had she followed orders

Well that is just the stupidest post I've read in a long time.....reminds me of Minigunner :notrust

By that you are justifying her being raped, which is stupid.

@ Toby:

I can see why some blame Islam for this.

First of all Saudi's claim that it runs according to Islamic law, which puts any passed law and judgment under Islam's cover.

Second, the laws of Islam itself. You have a religion that punishes extra marital sex with lashes and in case of adultery (for married people) with death penalty. It also punishes those who convert from Islam with death penalty....so it is not really that weird that we see Judges in Saudi Arabia pass such laws and punishments.

@ the rest who picture Islam as a fucked up religion...

And usually those are either christians or jews....they really have to take a look at the old testament, that book is just as fucked up...let's not forget they all have the same bases.

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 02:12 PM

Edo

11-17-2007, 02:26 PM

^ Had she followed the law, she wouldn't have been raped. Its simple as that. I don't justify rape, and I don't blame it on the woman entirely. The men are blamed just as much, if not more than her. She should've thought about this before going with them.

So in other words you are saying she got what she deserved.

This does not justify rape and does not give the others the right to rape her. You say you don't justify rape but that is what you are saying in your post. You are saying that because she went with them she got raped, like if rape is the natural result of a woman going out with a man?

Diamed

11-17-2007, 02:29 PM

You shouldn't have to live as a domestic slave your entire life, without any privacy or freedom, like an animal instead of a human, just to avoid being raped. A government should provide freedom AND security to ALL its members. It should not be whipping teenage girls 200 times for nothing. It's a shame the middle east has no idea what a government is for or how it functions.

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 02:30 PM

So in other words you are saying she got what she deserved.

This does not justify rape and does not give the others the right to rape her. You say you don't justify rape but that is what you are saying in your post. You are saying that because she went with them she got raped, like if rape is the natural result of a woman going out with a man?

Well, she deserves punishment for going with them, not rape. I never said that rape is a natural outcome of a woman going out with a man, that is a very big strawman here. The law is there to protect her, why didn't she follow it. So I definately support her being punished, along with the men. The extra 200 lashes was very unjust though.

Naida

11-17-2007, 02:37 PM

There are some things in this world that I don't think I'll ever like or understand. This, clearly, is going to be one of them.

Fojos

11-17-2007, 02:38 PM

OK, we have to tell you this everytime:

THIS IS NOT ISLAM!

These are Saudi's who know less about Islam then the average Westerner.

So stop fucking saying that Islam this Islam that and start saying Saudi this and Saudi this.

What's going on with NF?

Saudi Arabian culture mainly revolves around the religion of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam).They're muslims. But humans are evil, not religion. Religion really stands for peace, but since humans are the ones using it, it cannot be.

But seriously, can you explain to me why MOST countries revolving around Islam have fucked up laws like these?

Edo

11-17-2007, 02:44 PM

Well, she deserves punishment for going with them, not rape. I never said that rape is a natural outcome of a woman going out with a man, that is a very big strawman here. The law is there to protect her, why didn't she follow it. So I definately support her being punished, along with the men. The extra 200 lashes was very unjust though.

By this logic then:

First, they too were breaking the law when they took her with them and therefore they should also by punished for that too.

Second, this law makes me believe that every male in Saudia Arabia is a sex-hungry pig, otherwise why would it exist, in an Islamic country that follows islamic law and where children are brought up by islamic teachings, one should expect that even if she did go with them they should have, at least, refused her company....

The Sentry

11-17-2007, 02:46 PM

This is surely Islam the religion of peace piss

Ashiya

11-17-2007, 02:54 PM

That is appalling to the point of irrationality.

drache

11-17-2007, 02:56 PM

Well, she deserves punishment for going with them, not rape. I never said that rape is a natural outcome of a woman going out with a man, that is a very big strawman here. The law is there to protect her, why didn't she follow it. So I definately support her being punished, along with the men. The extra 200 lashes was very unjust though.

The law is there to protect her?

Possibly but it's also a way to keep women as second class citizens.

Though if everyone in the country of question is happy with that then it's their choice.

I look at this as just another way countries like Sadia Arbria try and keep women as second class citizens. But then again I don't live there so I don't think it's my place to throw stones; if they are happy with it so be it.

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 03:12 PM

By this logic then:

First, they too were breaking the law when they took her with them and therefore they should also by punished for that too.

Isn't that what I just said. Thank you for agreeing with me. Of course what actually happened is none of my concern, it's what should've happened that I'm talking about.

Second, this law makes me believe that every male in Saudia Arabia is a sex-hungry pig, otherwise why would it exist, in an Islamic country that follows islamic law and where children are brought up by islamic teachings, one should expect that even if she did go with them they should have, at least, refused her company....

Not necessrily. Prevention is the best cure. Furthermore, the fact that they took her with them reflects their own upbringing, not that of every Saudi.

The law is there to protect her?

Possibly but it's also a way to keep women as second class citizens.

Though if everyone in the country of question is happy with that then it's their choice.

I look at this as just another way countries like Sadia Arbria try and keep women as second class citizens. But then again I don't live there so I don't think it's my place to throw stones; if they are happy with it so be it.

The islamic law was based on protecting the women. Whatever tweaks the Saudis add is their own, and only they can tell you the reason behind them.

Ukkitake Kakashi

11-17-2007, 03:13 PM

This is why the Saudi's fail hard, no logic at all.

drache

11-17-2007, 03:50 PM

The islamic law was based on protecting the women. Whatever tweaks the Saudis add is their own, and only they can tell you the reason behind them.

As I said, it's not my country and thus I don't think it's right for me to just come in and say my values and pirorities are right adopt them now or die.

That said I am highly critical of any law designed 'to protect someone from themself' it seems remarkably similair to the Jim Crow laws the US once had in the South and it seems to be the marching beat of any majority bent on oppressing a minority.

If that's the way Saudi Arabia or even Islam as a whole wants it, okay far be it from me to be judgemental; provided they don't try and force that view on anyone else and provided that everyone really agrees with it. But the second people start cutting off people from rights they want, expect me to have a probelm with that.

sarun uchiha

11-17-2007, 04:00 PM

Reminds me of that story I heard on... Discovery? Same place too. This unmarried, under-age woman was raped by a much older man. She was hung and he got something like 10 lashes.
The link?
Saudi Arabia, it's backwards! Done right!

I am starting to wonder whether the only country in the region with an ounce of sense is the UAE, or is that crazy as well?
I heard that a French boy was threatened with charges of homosexuality even though he was raped!
What do you expect from such a messed up country, the only thing that's protects them is America's oil interests.
We should all condemn this great justice but unfortunately we don't have power or much right to stop this!
I sense a new Apple product coming up...

The iSlam.
iSlam!:laugh
Well, your gonna be getting alot more reasons because religion is gonna stick around until the end of time.
Yes, as long as humankind exists, belief system will be there!

sarun uchiha

11-17-2007, 04:04 PM

^ Had she followed the law, she wouldn't have been raped. Its simple as that. I don't justify rape, and I don't blame it on the woman entirely. The men are blamed just as much, if not more than her. She should've thought about this before going with them.
You haven't seen the full story!
The girl was with a man who happened to her former friend!
She was with him because she was going to be married to another man and she wanted him to return her pictures of herslf!
While they were in the car, some group of men came and raped both of them!
You see, she didn't go out with her rapists but rather she went to a man to ask him to return her pictures, who himself was raped in this incident!
So, you can't blame her for this at all!
Well, she deserves punishment for going with them, not rape. I never said that rape is a natural outcome of a woman going out with a man, that is a very big strawman here. The law is there to protect her, why didn't she follow it. So I definately support her being punished, along with the men. The extra 200 lashes was very unjust though.
Read what I posted above!

sadated_peon

11-17-2007, 06:07 PM

^ Had she followed the law, she wouldn't have been raped. Its simple as that. I don't justify rape, and I don't blame it on the woman entirely. The men are blamed just as much, if not more than her. She should've thought about this before going with them.
So let me give you a hypothetical situation.

The American government institutes a law that says EVERY muslim must be accompanied by a police offers wherever they go. This is for their own protection, the police officer will watch over them an make sure that they are not attack in a hate crime.

Would you agree to this. Would you agree to a law that every muslim must be accompanied by a police officer if they leave their homes.

As it is for their own protection.

M E L O D Y

11-17-2007, 06:45 PM

horrible. the victim getting punished?!

The_Unforgiven

11-17-2007, 11:02 PM

You haven't seen the full story!
The girl was with a man who happened to her former friend!
She was with him because she was going to be married to another man and she wanted him to return her pictures of herslf!
While they were in the car, some group of men came and raped both of them!
You see, she didn't go out with her rapists but rather she went to a man to ask him to return her pictures, who himself was raped in this incident!
So, you can't blame her for this at all!

Read what I posted above!

Well, that changes the situation alot! One, she shouldn't have gone alone. Dhe should've went with a brother or w/e, it shows that she's dead serious, and she would have protection if this man tried something "unexpected". Plus, why did he have pics of her in the first place?

So let me give you a hypothetical situation.

The American government institutes a law that says EVERY muslim must be accompanied by a police offers wherever they go. This is for their own protection, the police officer will watch over them an make sure that they are not attack in a hate crime.

Would you agree to this. Would you agree to a law that every muslim must be accompanied by a police officer if they leave their homes.

As it is for their own protection.

Supposing that they are in danger, yeah why not.

sadated_peon

11-18-2007, 12:47 AM

Supposing that they are in danger, yeah why not.
Supposing the current American climate today, you would support being forced to be accompanied by a police officer if you left your home.

Razza

11-18-2007, 12:48 AM

I'm sorry but I find this quite funny.

Kyasurin Yakuto

11-18-2007, 12:49 AM

That's messed up on the highest level. I honestly don't understand the decisions of some people in this world at all.

I feel really sorry for her. And it's not the first time that I've heard about something like this.

sarun uchiha

11-18-2007, 02:12 AM

Well, that changes the situation alot! One, she shouldn't have gone alone. Dhe should've went with a brother or w/e, it shows that she's dead serious, and she would have protection if this man tried something "unexpected". Plus, why did he have pics of her in the first place?

She didn't have to fear him because he was her friend!
But you have your right in saying your opinion and if we follow logic by which Saudi's law, you win this argument!
Still it is harsh to punish victim and to have laws like these!
But then again, the middle ages weren't much different and different parts of the world have different timing in progress in proper judicial law!

Sean Connery

11-18-2007, 06:03 AM

I don't know how these people can sleep at night

T4R0K

11-18-2007, 06:14 AM

Sean Connery

11-18-2007, 06:16 AM

T4R0K

11-18-2007, 06:38 AM

there laws and culture make me sick

Want a vomitbag ? I stockpile them because of those.

Everytime I speak with a middle-eastern muslim, I feel like there's a cultural gap even though my country of origin has a mainly muslim population. Wait no, it's actually a cultural canyon.

In some way, the fact we used to be a kind of christians before that sticked a lot to what Jesus said about compassion and humility (and bringing it so far the Vatican didn't like us. Not paying taxes and stuff...), we didn't drop it completely when we became muslims and were able in some way to keep our senses, mixing Islamic and European cultures. I've only recently started to hear "She got raped because she had it coming" there, and it's because of the influence of foreigners from the arabic peninsula (thank God, we're either expelling them, or giving them out to the CIA). Fortunately, most people still know that rape victims are VICTIMS, hence people that suffered an horrible act upon them.

What about all the women that got raped by the Serbs, Hamoodi ? Should we have killed them ? Or maybe "just" punished them ? We didn't. We must be VEEEEERY bad muslims...

This religion needs a reform, I will never stop saying that ! We're in a dark age, and it seems no one wants out ! (and those that do, LOL, they're killed !)

Sean Connery

11-18-2007, 06:57 AM

there way over due for reform

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 07:17 AM

Supposing the current American climate today, you would support being forced to be accompanied by a police officer if you left your home.

Is safety such an absurd desire?

She didn't have to fear him because he was her friend!
But you have your right in saying your opinion and if we follow logic by which Saudi's law, you win this argument!
Still it is harsh to punish victim and to have laws like these!
But then again, the middle ages weren't much different and different parts of the world have different timing in progress in proper judicial law!

What I'm saying is, she shouldn't be punished for being raped. She should be punished for putting herself in such a situation, provided these men are punishd too. It is partially her fault really. For example, if I put oil on the edge of a kitchen counter, right next to an open flame, then it is my fault for the fire that will result.

Hamoodi, if you think people should be accompanied because the society they live in is too dangerous far going out alone, it's that society that has a problem, and not the person going out on her own. And do you really think that if she went with an other girl or an other male from her family, they wouldn't have been attacked as well ?

"Oh you can't attack me ! my older brother came with me !"
"... LOL STICK IT IN THEIR POOPERS !!!"

The girl got raped, the ex BF got raped. Maybe her bother or father would have been raped too !

Stop justifying what can't be.

I am not justifying anything. Had her brother been there with her, at least she would have the law on her side, even if they were all raped. That's my point there.

What about all the women that got raped by the Serbs, Hamoodi ? Should we have killed them ? Or maybe "just" punished them ? We didn't. We must be VEEEEERY bad muslims...

That's a very different story. Pls don't mix things up. These women were victims because of a war situation that they had no hand in setting up. While the case at hand is one of a woman going alone (which is by Saudi law illegal) to her BF. She was raped because she was in an easy rape situation. These people that raped her didn't go and knock on her house and barge in. SHE WENT TO THEM. That's were the difference is. We good now :cool

Radiance

11-18-2007, 07:25 AM

:yell that is nothing!
:iria I'm a bondage freak!

Sean Connery

11-18-2007, 07:51 AM

:yell that is nothing!
:iria I'm a bondage freak!

I'm not going there

Nytorious

11-18-2007, 07:52 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311848,00.html

www.foxnews.com/story

foxnews

Is it just me who realised this is from Fox News, he most biased news base who have a passion for widening the gap between the Arab world and the West with every chance they get.
Aslo, WTF was the need in mentioning oil?

neko-sennin

11-18-2007, 10:11 AM

This is why most people in this world who have any respect for women consider Saudi Arabia backwards and barbaric.

This gross miscarriage of its own teachings (insofar as what any Muslim I've talked to has admitted to me) is also what gives Islam itself a bad name to the rest of the world.

While the case at hand is one of a woman going alone (which is by Saudi law illegal) to her BF. She was raped because she was in an easy rape situation. These people that raped her didn't go and knock on her house and barge in. SHE WENT TO THEM. That's were the difference is. We good now :cool

So let me get this straight: if a woman goes somewhere with me, I can do whatever I want with her, and she gets punished for it? No wonder these guys don't know how to control their fuckin' hormones. They've never had to.

Juubi

11-18-2007, 10:17 AM

This is ridiculous, but it's to be expected from backwards cultures such as that.:notrust

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 10:49 AM

So let me get this straight: if a woman goes somewhere with me, I can do whatever I want with her, and she gets punished for it? No wonder these guys don't know how to control their fuckin' hormones. They've never had to.

Yes, but what use is testing their control when the girl got raped. What is better, you have a rape victim (who by the way, might have just lost her marriage), or her preventing this whole dillema by taking precautions against it.

Look, I'm all against rape and feel real bad for this woman, but we have to look at the situation at hand, could it have been avoided? The answer is yes, and very easily at that too. Don't put yourself in a risky situation. Would a wise sheperd take his goats near a cliff?

Levi

11-18-2007, 10:52 AM

Is it just me who realised this is from Fox News, he most biased news base who have a passion for widening the gap between the Arab world and the West with every chance they get.
Aslo, WTF was the need in mentioning oil?

It's probably full of corruption.

sadated_peon

11-18-2007, 11:02 AM

Is safety such an absurd desire?
You didn't answer the question.

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 11:09 AM

You didn't answer the question.

Supposing their safety was indeed in danger, then why not?

drache

11-18-2007, 11:19 AM

Yes, but what use is testing their control when the girl got raped. What is better, you have a rape victim (who by the way, might have just lost her marriage), or her preventing this whole dillema by taking precautions against it.

Look, I'm all against rape and feel real bad for this woman, but we have to look at the situation at hand, could it have been avoided? The answer is yes, and very easily at that too. Don't put yourself in a risky situation. Would a wise sheperd take his goats near a cliff?

So are you saying that women are incapable of protecting themselves or don't know how to protect themselves?

Because the first implies that due to being a woman one would never be able to adaquately defend yourself no matter what you do.

While the second would just be a case of knowledge and skill.

Frankly I'd say that it's teh second and the second can easily be remedied. It's just a simple matter of self defense classes and making the males in that culture actually learn that they aren't 100% in charge.

No offense but that's just how I feel, maybe it's just a culture difference but women aren't breakable and are just as capable of defending themselves as any man is.

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 11:22 AM

So are you saying that women are incapable of protecting themselves or don't know how to protect themselves?

Because the first implies that due to being a woman one would never be able to adaquately defend yourself no matter what you do.

While the second would just be a case of knowledge and skill.

Frankly I'd say that it's teh second and the second can easily be remedied. It's just a simple matter of self defense classes and making the males in that culture actually learn that they aren't 100% in charge.

No offense but that's just how I feel, maybe it's just a culture difference but women aren't breakable and are just as capable of defending themselves as any man is.

And still, the simpler solution to that issue, is avoiding it. Again, would the wise sheperd take his goats to graze near a cliff and carry mountain climbing tools with him, or would he just go to an open field?

drache

11-18-2007, 11:26 AM

And still, the simpler solution to that issue, is avoiding it. Again, would the wise sheperd take his goats to graze near a cliff and carry mountain climbing tools with him, or would he just go to an open field?

The only probelm with that analogy is that I'd personally say women are not goats. They have intelligence, self awareness and so on.

If anything that analogy highlights everything I find wrong with this situation, because your analogy implies alot of negatives about women and implies that they are second class and not equal to men.

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 11:43 AM

The only probelm with that analogy is that I'd personally say women are not goats. They have intelligence, self awareness and so on.

If anything that analogy highlights everything I find wrong with this situation, because your analogy implies alot of negatives about women and implies that they are second class and not equal to men.

I'm sorry if you didn't understand the analogy. In here, the women are not the goats, they are the shepherd. Furthermore, if we assume that the women are the goats we can look at it in another way; what's the most important thing in the world to a shepherd? *raises hand* His goats!

drache

11-18-2007, 11:56 AM

I'm sorry if you didn't understand the analogy. In here, the women are not the goats, they are the shepherd. Furthermore, if we assume that the women are the goats we can look at it in another way; what's the most important thing in the world to a shepherd? *raises hand* His goats!

Like I said in the end this is going to come down to a cultural difference I think.

Even if the women are the shepherds I still wouldn't agree with your analogy because how I was raised and what I was taught seems to be different from you. Which isn't inherently bad, it's just different.

Where I live no one would even suggest passing laws detailing what a woman can and can't do becuase she's a woman. The women wouldn't put up with it, the courts wouldn't allow it and any politican trying it most likely wouldn't get elected back into office.

If it works for your country and the women and men are truely happy with the situation, then who am I to say that I know absolutely what is and isn't right?

Ennoea

11-18-2007, 12:00 PM

I hope you guys realise how hypocritical Saudi Arabia are? In Islam its haram to have a monarchy yet Arabia is ruled by a King and Princes. Not to mention the King has 200 wives and is an alcholic. If anyone its the family that deserves the lashes.

As for the rape case, all I can say is that its disgusting. Women have a right to have security, imagine your sister goes to a corner shop and gets raped, would you blame your sister for going outside alone or the rapists? Theres something seriously wrong in a society where men think they can go around rape women. Personally they're the ones that should get the lashes. And they claim the "west" is evil, pfft Arabia is a joke.

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 12:00 PM

Like I said in the end this is going to come down to a cultural difference I think.

Even if the women are the shepherds I still wouldn't agree with your analogy because how I was raised and what I was taught seems to be different from you. Which isn't inherently bad, it's just different.

Where I live no one would even suggest passing laws detailing what a woman can and can't do becuase she's a woman. The women wouldn't put up with it, the courts wouldn't allow it and any politican trying it most likely wouldn't get elected back into office.

If it works for your country and the women and men are truely happy with the situation, then who am I to say that I know absolutely what is and isn't right?

Well, its not about how I was raised, its how I think. Why deal with the consequences if you can prevent the cause?

Zhongda

11-18-2007, 12:01 PM

I am writing a paper on the compatibility of Islam and the nation state, i'll be posting it in the philosophical corner before i submit it for you guys to critiqueueue

The_Unforgiven

11-18-2007, 12:02 PM

cool. Good luck :thumbs

drache

11-18-2007, 12:04 PM

Well, its not about how I was raised, its how I think. Why deal with the consequences if you can prevent the cause?

And yet you can get teh same results by teaching self defense, how to be safe to the women and teaching the men that they can't just take what they want.

Nakor

11-18-2007, 12:22 PM

at least saudi arabia seems willing to adjust their laws alittle. so its not like there is no hope for them changing.

Xion

11-18-2007, 12:22 PM

Well, its not about how I was raised, its how I think. Why deal with the consequences if you can prevent the cause?

I agree. Prevention is better than trying to patch the past, but in some cases, preventative means do not work so well.

Jaga

11-18-2007, 02:35 PM

banged and beaten...ouch

sadated_peon

11-18-2007, 05:07 PM

Supposing their safety was indeed in danger, then why not?
Are you being purposefully in your avoidance of my question?
I told you the current climate, so you have a base of reference for their state of safety. Now given that state yes, you would accept or no.

Sean Connery

11-18-2007, 05:27 PM

banged and beaten...ouch

yeah it's pretty F'ed up

sarun uchiha

11-18-2007, 07:38 PM

Hamoodi, if you think people should be accompanied because the society they live in is too dangerous far going out alone, it's that society that has a problem, and not the person going out on her own. And do you really think that if she went with an other girl or an other male from her family, they wouldn't have been attacked as well ?

"Oh you can't attack me ! my older brother came with me !"
"... LOL STICK IT IN THEIR POOPERS !!!"

The girl got raped, the ex BF got raped. Maybe her bother or father would have been raped too !

Stop justifying what can't be.
It is unfair for woman that she can only go out if she has a family member! It's like woman can't defend themselves!
I am getting little liberal than I was before because of this debate!
What I'm saying is, she shouldn't be punished for being raped. She should be punished for putting herself in such a situation, provided these men are punishd too. It is partially her fault really. For example, if I put oil on the edge of a kitchen counter, right next to an open flame, then it is my fault for the fire that will result.

I am not justifying anything. Had her brother been there with her, at least she would have the law on her side, even if they were all raped. That's my point there.

That's a very different story. Pls don't mix things up. These women were victims because of a war situation that they had no hand in setting up. While the case at hand is one of a woman going alone (which is by Saudi law illegal) to her BF. She was raped because she was in an easy rape situation. These people that raped her didn't go and knock on her house and barge in. SHE WENT TO THEM. That's were the difference is. We good now :cool
She didn't go to them!
She want to a guy who was also raped in this incident!
She and that guy knew each other and knew she wouldn't be harmed by him and she was right, she wasn't harmed by him!
TSo let me get this straight: if a woman goes somewhere with me, I can do whatever I want with her, and she gets punished for it? No wonder these guys don't know how to control their fuckin' hormones. They've never had to.
Saudi laws are anti-woman, especially this one as it shows that they are harsh when it comes to women's rights!
Yes, but what use is testing their control when the girl got raped. What is better, you have a rape victim (who by the way, might have just lost her marriage), or her preventing this whole dillema by taking precautions against it.

Look, I'm all against rape and feel real bad for this woman, but we have to look at the situation at hand, could it have been avoided? The answer is yes, and very easily at that too. Don't put yourself in a risky situation. Would a wise sheperd take his goats near a cliff?
She got married for your information as she was engaged before this incident! And her husband supports her and would appeal/contest this decision, although I'm not sure whether the incident is carried out by now!
She didn't put herself into risky position, she didn't go the rapists, the rapists went and raped her and her friend!

Seren

11-18-2007, 08:37 PM

Put herself in that situation?

Look, if I go outside in a miniskirt, five inch heels and a tube top.. well, first hell would freeze, but after that. If I did that, got blasted out of my fucking gourd and walked around in public- would it be okay for someone to rape me? After all, it'd be public intoxication, which is against the law. Not only that, but I'm a girl, in suggestive clothing.

Would I have been asking for it? No.

I have basic knowledge- maybe a little more than the average westerner- about Islam and the Koran. There is nothing that says a woman can't be in an enclosed enviorment with a male. The laws regarding the hijab/burqua's are there to prevent men from looking at women lustfully- which is not a bad law in and of itself. Purdah is a different story, but insofar as I know, I can't find a consensus about whether Purdah itself is Islam law or just a societal barrier.

But in case, it doesn't make it right. The car deal is a bullshit law, and lashings for speaking out about what happened is ever more stupid.

AlphaRooster

11-18-2007, 09:04 PM

mortal

11-18-2007, 09:31 PM

When victims becomes villains...truly sad.

I do think I should add that this wasn't an Islamic ruling, it was a Saudi ruling.

neko-sennin

11-19-2007, 05:20 AM

The car deal is a bullshit law, and lashings for speaking out about what happened is ever more stupid.

Just another of many human society's sick, sad ways of keeping rape victims from telling their side of the story, and Saudi Arabia is one of the lowest of the low in that regard.

Sean Connery

11-19-2007, 06:37 AM

Just another of many human society's sick, sad ways of keeping rape victims from telling their side of the story, and Saudi Arabia is one of the lowest of the low in that regard.

like I mentioned earlier, there culture makes me sick to my stomach

Megatonton

11-19-2007, 09:35 AM

Well, leaving theologies aside, it is really unfair for the poor victim to be lashed. What did happen to the rapist anyways?

Iram_et_Dolorem

11-19-2007, 09:38 AM

Welcome back to the stone age.

The_Unforgiven

11-19-2007, 10:19 AM

And yet you can get teh same results by teaching self defense, how to be safe to the women and teaching the men that they can't just take what they want.

Not necessarily the same results. I don't know about you, but I have gotten into numerous fights. I trained for about 6 months in Kung fu, and I can tell you that it never came in handy, except maybe the extra physical power that I got. During a fight, you forget everything you trained to do. You just want to inflict as much damage as you can. That can only be achieved through getting physical power. Last time I checked the average man is stronger physically than the average woman. So untill now, my way is more fool proof.

Put herself in that situation?

Look, if I go outside in a miniskirt, five inch heels and a tube top.. well, first hell would freeze, but after that. If I did that, got blasted out of my fucking gourd and walked around in public- would it be okay for someone to rape me? After all, it'd be public intoxication, which is against the law. Not only that, but I'm a girl, in suggestive clothing.

Would I have been asking for it? No.

I have basic knowledge- maybe a little more than the average westerner- about Islam and the Koran. There is nothing that says a woman can't be in an enclosed enviorment with a male. The laws regarding the hijab/burqua's are there to prevent men from looking at women lustfully- which is not a bad law in and of itself. Purdah is a different story, but insofar as I know, I can't find a consensus about whether Purdah itself is Islam law or just a societal barrier.

But in case, it doesn't make it right. The car deal is a bullshit law, and lashings for speaking out about what happened is ever more stupid.
Agreed on the bolded.

I said many times that in such a situation, the woman is partially blamed. Of course, the greater responsibility is on the man, but the woman has a share in the responsibility.

Just another of many human society's sick, sad ways of keeping rape victims from telling their side of the story, and Saudi Arabia is one of the lowest of the low in that regard. QFT

drache

11-19-2007, 11:21 AM

Not necessarily the same results. I don't know about you, but I have gotten into numerous fights. I trained for about 6 months in Kung fu, and I can tell you that it never came in handy, except maybe the extra physical power that I got. During a fight, you forget everything you trained to do. You just want to inflict as much damage as you can. That can only be achieved through getting physical power. Last time I checked the average man is stronger physically than the average woman. So untill now, my way is more fool proof.

That's because you've only had 6 months of training.

For me it's teh exact opposite, when I get into a fight (though I try not to) I have to work to not let my instincts take completely over, otherwise I'd probably seriously hurt someone.

You can't judge the effectiveness of a martial art based on only 6 months of training, because you've not had time for it to become half instinctual let alone fully instinctive.

And not all martial arts are about power, Akkido, Ju Jistu both relay on joint locks and throws neither of which are dependent on power; Praying Mantis Kung Fu is a style that assumes your opponent will be bigger then you and trains accordingly and Wing Chun was actually developed by a woman to be a self defense art for woman.

That doesn't even begin to cover modern self defense classes and styles which are really effective, because not only do they teach techinique but they teach tactics. Did you know that just about anything can be used as a weapon? And that keys are one of the nasiest weapons people almost always have on hand.

More over it would seem to me that again this is also a cultural thing where Saudia men (and maybe men from other Arabic cultures) think they can take anything that isn't protected. Now note I don't live in Sadia Arabia and I'm not saying that is for a fact how it is I'm just saying that's the interpratation I get. Thus it's just as much a probelm and needs to be corrected.

I'd seriously would like to understand why this gang of men decided to rape not only the girl but the guy and apparently in public as it seems very odd; at least to me because such things don't often happen where I live.

The_Unforgiven

11-19-2007, 12:48 PM

That's because you've only had 6 months of training.

For me it's teh exact opposite, when I get into a fight (though I try not to) I have to work to not let my instincts take completely over, otherwise I'd probably seriously hurt someone.

You can't judge the effectiveness of a martial art based on only 6 months of training, because you've not had time for it to become half instinctual let alone fully instinctive.

:P lol, probably. Anyaway, I quit because I found it to be boring and uneffective(in my experience at least).

And not all martial arts are about power, Akkido, Ju Jistu both relay on joint locks and throws neither of which are dependent on power; Praying Mantis Kung Fu is a style that assumes your opponent will be bigger then you and trains accordingly and Wing Chun was actually developed by a woman to be a self defense art for woman.

That doesn't even begin to cover modern self defense classes and styles which are really effective, because not only do they teach techinique but they teach tactics. Did you know that just about anything can be used as a weapon? And that keys are one of the nasiest weapons people almost always have on hand.

I know, but still, learning these arts takes time, and during that time, something might happen (I'm saying there's a possibility, not saying it has to happen).

More over it would seem to me that again this is also a cultural thing where Saudia men (and maybe men from other Arabic cultures) think they can take anything that isn't protected. Now note I don't live in Sadia Arabia and I'm not saying that is for a fact how it is I'm just saying that's the interpratation I get. Thus it's just as much a probelm and needs to be corrected.

What I think is that this is a direct result from separating men from women, all the time, and forcing women to cover from head to toe. It just makes them super sex hungry druling pigs like that.

I'd seriously would like to understand why this gang of men decided to rape not only the girl but the guy and apparently in public as it seems very odd; at least to me because such things don't often happen where I live.

True. It makes me doubt the authenticity of the story.

Trias

11-19-2007, 01:01 PM

So where's porn in this thread?

Jiraya_Ero_Senjin

11-19-2007, 01:08 PM

Omg this doesnt sound surprising at all !
We all know woman are surpressed in those regimes.

Ceej17

11-19-2007, 01:10 PM

That was just stupid

drache

11-19-2007, 01:50 PM

:P lol, probably. Anyaway, I quit because I found it to be boring and uneffective(in my experience at least).

It's only uneffective at first because you're relatively untrained. If you want something quick then grab a weapon and even then if you're not trained with it you probably still won't be that effective with it.

Any thing worth having takes time.

I know, but still, learning these arts takes time, and during that time, something might happen (I'm saying there's a possibility, not saying it has to happen).

It might and it might not; using your logic though no one should ever learn to drive a car though. Because something could happen while you're learning to drive. Sorry but I find this too much of an excuse and not enough of a reason.

What I think is that this is a direct result from separating men from women, all the time, and forcing women to cover from head to toe. It just makes them super sex hungry druling pigs like that.

It might, I don't live in that culture so I won't pretend to know for sure. I personally think you may be on to something but I don't know for sure.

However regardless of how much your harmones may be screaming at you that doesn't mean you should just give in to them. People should be able to exercise some control over themselves.

True. It makes me doubt the authenticity of the story.

Oh I don't doubt it's true, I was merely wondering why people would do something like that. And what motivation they had.

The_Unforgiven

11-19-2007, 02:33 PM

It's only uneffective at first because you're relatively untrained. If you want something quick then grab a weapon and even then if you're not trained with it you probably still won't be that effective with it.

Any thing worth having takes time.

As long as I can fight, I'm happy :zaru

It might and it might not; using your logic though no one should ever learn to drive a car though. Because something could happen while you're learning to drive. Sorry but I find this too much of an excuse and not enough of a reason.

Fine then, look at it from another angle. What if the guy also knew martial arts. I'm sorry, but whatever example you bring up, mine will always be better. I'm all for teaching women martial arts, but I don't think it would completely solve the problem.

It might, I don't live in that culture so I won't pretend to know for sure. I personally think you may be on to something but I don't know for sure.

However regardless of how much your harmones may be screaming at you that doesn't mean you should just give in to them. People should be able to exercise some control over themselves.

Oh I know some really desperate people at my school. I go to a boys only school, and you can't even begin to estimate how desperate these guys can get. They fuckin drool when they see a girl pass in front of our school. :facepalm

Oh I don't doubt it's true, I was merely wondering why people would do something like that. And what motivation they had.
beats me

drache

11-19-2007, 02:50 PM

As long as I can fight, I'm happy :zaru

*shrug* you don't need training to fight really, any one can flail thier fists at someone.

Fine then, look at it from another angle. What if the guy also knew martial arts. I'm sorry, but whatever example you bring up, mine will always be better. I'm all for teaching women martial arts, but I don't think it would completely solve the problem.

First off that's incredibly arrogant and foolish to blanketly claim that any example you bring up will always be better. I gave an example and showed that your line of thinking is a bit silly. There's no reason to get insulting.

Sure the person may know martial arts but most martial artists I know don't go around picking fights. In fact to do so would be to go against the principles I learned as part of my martial arts training.

I also never said it would completely slove the probelm, I said it would help and in combination with teaching the men some self restraint would do much to stop the probelm.

Oh I know some really desperate people at my school. I go to a boys only school, and you can't even begin to estimate how desperate these guys can get. They fuckin drool when they see a girl pass in front of our school. :facepalm

You're not telling me anything I don't know, I went to an all guys school too and yeah it happens. But that's still no excuse or reason to not have some self restraint.

The_Unforgiven

11-19-2007, 02:56 PM

First off that's incredibly arrogant and foolish to blanketly claim that any example you bring up will always be better. I gave an example and showed that your line of thinking is a bit silly. There's no reason to get insulting.

Sure the person may know martial arts but most martial artists I know don't go around picking fights. In fact to do so would be to go against the principles I learned as part of my martial arts training.

I also never said it would completely slove the probelm, I said it would help and in combination with teaching the men some self restraint would do much to stop the probelm.

I didn't mean it as insulting or anything, sorry you read it that way.

Anyway, back to the topic: You yourself just said that your way wouldn't completely stop the problem, while my way prevents any possibility of the event whatsoever. It is better because prevention is the best cure.

You're not telling me anything I don't know, I went to an all guys school too and yeah it happens. But that's still no excuse or reason to not have some self restraintQFT

drache

11-19-2007, 03:40 PM

I didn't mean it as insulting or anything, sorry you read it that way.

Anyway, back to the topic: You yourself just said that your way wouldn't completely stop the problem, while my way prevents any possibility of the event whatsoever. It is better because prevention is the best cure.

Making it illegal doesn't stop it, hell the whole freaken history of America's 'War on Drugs' should be a lesson in how outlawing a supposed probelm doesn't make it go away.

This law doesn't slove anything, it just increases the ignorance of everyone and when people do get into a bad situtaion they don't know how to talk/think their way out and failing that bash enough heads to be safe.

Sticking your head in the ground has never sloved anything.

T4R0K

11-19-2007, 03:47 PM

It seems to me man you are getting mad at the wrong people. You seem more upset with people saying this is Islam than people who are making this Islam.

This needs to be quoted again.

sarun uchiha

11-19-2007, 08:33 PM

True. It makes me doubt the authenticity of the story.

The story is true, even the part about the guy being raped and incidentally my International Affairs class discussed it (I brought up the subjectsmile-big)!

Zabuzalives

11-20-2007, 05:25 AM

It seems to me man you are getting mad at the wrong people. You seem more upset with people saying this is Islam than people who are making this Islam.

QFT!!! +reps.

its SUCH a cop out to just say: well, thats not true Islam....and wave off all responsibility.

They ALSO are muslims. they ALSO have an interpretation on Islam. They ALSO form a face of islam in this world. And they will mold and form Islam according to THEIR interpretation. :notrust

What if their Salafist interpretations of Islam would become dominant, or even mandatory?? Then THEIR Islam, will be the true Islam.
Hell for them it already is!

Who is to say your subjective interpretation is the right one?? Wait...it doesnt even matter, because their ""wrong"" interpretation is viewed as true by them, and thus has an effect on this world as they live by their interpretations and try to change and shape the world accordingly......

The practical, wordly influence of Islam on the world is partly guided by its message, but also guided by the leading human interpretations of that message.

You...and them, are both influenced by islam, both interpreted the Q'uran. As such you are both faces of Islam....you both shape the image of islam.

That that image shaped by your brothers in the faith is shitty....not my fault.

Simply, your religion is hijacked and its name is abused....yet you seem to care less about that. and more about that we as outsiders cant tell which out of hundreds of different subjective interpretations on what is ""true"" Islam, is the right one.

And yeah, where you ignore that its possible that their interpretation spreads to have a consensus opinion that THAT is true islam.
Scripture forms the theoretical part. interpretations then affect how Islam will be put in practice.

So religions arent constant, they change.

Diamed

11-20-2007, 06:16 AM

Zhongda

11-20-2007, 06:28 AM

Diamed

11-20-2007, 07:46 AM

:/. I can't share your optimism about this 'shadow' majority until they stand up and act in the name of Islam to put an end to these abuses by the 'vocal' minority. If moderate Islam is truly the majority, then they need to put their own house back in order, and take care of their fringe extremists. Moderate Islam must become the rulers of all the middle eastern states, moderate islam must be broadcasted in all the satellite networks, moderate Islam must be taught in the schools, moderate Islam must negotiate peace with their neighbors, and so on. If they don't, then I go back to my original formula: Islam is as Islam does.

It's meaningless that most muslims are moderate if all muslim ACTS are done by the extremists. Until moderate islam is a verb instead of a noun Islam will continue to be judged by its actions--which are currently all being done solely and exclusively by extremists. Dictator thugs, criminal gang immigrants, jihadi terrorists, and religious 'morals' police who prowl the streets in search of sinful women and gays, are the people actually DOING things in Islam. The moderates, if they exist, are all submissively sitting around being victims, or callously ignoring the brutality and terror in their midst, and are therefore marginalized as meaningless parts of the equation.

Anaiya

11-20-2007, 09:43 AM

Zhongda

11-20-2007, 09:50 AM

:/. I can't share your optimism about this 'shadow' majority until they stand up and act in the name of Islam to put an end to these abuses by the 'vocal' minority.
How do you expect them to do that? Any action against the extremists will antagonize them further and lead them to act even more violently - take the red mosque shootings in Pakistan for instance.

The majority of Muslims accept the modern type of government. Iraq is a perfect example. The voter turnout in the 2004 elections was 65-75% I believe. When you vote for a government, you expect it to provide security, however these voters, who of course constitute a majority, can't do anything against the "vocal minority".

If moderate Islam is truly the majority, then they need to put their own house back in order, and take care of their fringe extremists. Moderate Islam must become the rulers of all the middle eastern states, moderate islam must be broadcasted in all the satellite networks, moderate Islam must be taught in the schools, moderate Islam must negotiate peace with their neighbors, and so on. If they don't, then I go back to my original formula: Islam is as Islam does.
Well considering that we have only two supposed theocracies in the ME with the rest ranging from being all out secular to being influenced by Islam, i am really not sure what house you want in order - do you expect perhaps the moderates to yell in the streets and rally around, i dunno, Darwin's picture or something? Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and pre-war Iraq are secular - most of the GCC are influenced by Islam but definitely moderate, KSA can be seen as to breed terrorism, then again they're very good friends with US. Just what exactly do you want done in the ME? Perhaps more coverage of moderate activity? Here, i hope this will do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1_y_5vUmA

It's meaningless that most muslims are moderate if all muslim ACTS are done by the extremists. Until moderate islam is a verb instead of a noun Islam will continue to be judged by its actions--which are currently all being done solely and exclusively by extremists. Dictator thugs, criminal gang immigrants, jihadi terrorists, and religious 'morals' police who prowl the streets in search of sinful women and gays, are the people actually DOING things in Islam. The moderates, if they exist, are all submissively sitting around being victims, or callously ignoring the brutality and terror in their midst, and are therefore marginalized as meaningless parts of the equation.
It wouldn't make sense really to have moderates not accept government as the only legitimate protector - the people you think are "callously ignoring terror" are the most effected by it - again with Iraq, the death toll i think is just a few thousands short of a million, all caused by terrorists who wave the Islamic flag. You apparently expect a moderate Muslim front against these Muslims, well that won't happen because moderate Muslims depend on government, not insurgents to protect them.

Zabuzalives

11-20-2007, 10:20 AM

Fair enough, this would mean that the very small minority of Muslims doing this, out of the Muslim population of, over a billion? practice the religion in such a negative way, while the majority are simply your average day Dick and Harry.

very small minority?? That phrase is a cop out as well. Look at the numbers of protesters, at majorities voting Hamas, or whole countries ending up as a theocracy. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Aghanistan. Pakistan with all its madrassas. All those who are in favor of Sharia law, or for killing apostates.

that minority is Far from small enough. That minority still constitutes millions and millions of people.

Seeing as the followers shape the image and meaning of islam, its far from ""the religion of peace"". As it is far more agressive then other religions now.

pfftt, we have a neo-nazy rally from time to time. With like 100 people from throughout the country joining. Now THATS a small minority.

So we could be like you: oh its a minority, and leave it at that. leave it to fester and spread....

But we keep a very careful watch on them, and object to their views on a regular basis. We have anti-fascists, looking for fights with them.

but yeah, I do make a distinction between different interpretations of Islam. But together, they still shape the general view of Islam, and you are lying to yourself if you do not think, that there are a good deal of negatives to this view.

HyperKnuckles22

11-20-2007, 10:54 AM

ts SUCH a cop out to just say: well, thats not true Islam....and wave off all responsibility.

i was told that, and got negrepped by four idiots.

If moderate Islam is truly the majority, then they need to put their own house back in order, and take care of their fringe extremists. Moderate Islam must become the rulers of all the middle eastern states, moderate islam must be broadcasted in all the satellite networks, moderate Islam must be taught in the schools, moderate Islam must negotiate peace with their neighbors, and so on. If they don't, then I go back to my original formula: Islam is as Islam does.

that proves that moderates dont care, or that they arent really moderate.

drache

11-20-2007, 11:05 AM

Islam is as Islam does. Islam is whatever the followers of it do. Which currently includes: high crime rates wherever they immigrate, female genital mutilation, honor killings, wife beating, burqas and male relative 'escorts', dictators over almost all their countries, terrorism across the entire world, internal and external wars, illiteracy, ignorance, poverty, slavery, absurd penal codes, high unemployment, the death penalty for apostates, a complete dearth of nobel prizes or other cultural accomplishments, and screaming mobs who chant 'death to america, death to israel, death to the UK' and cheered in the streets after 9/11. It also includes riots over cartoons, death threats to all of its critics, the death penalty for gays, and rampant anti-semitism.

Like Pandora's box, within Islam is virtually every evil in the whole world, a basket case just waiting to be released upon the unsuspecting world. Even though it now has conquered 1 out of every 6 people on Earth, we still turn a blind eye to it, welcome their immigrants into our countries, ignore their genocides in darfur, and passively permit the subhuman barbarous treatment of their women, even praising them with the ridiculously orwellian term "Religion of Peace" at a time when they are responsible for virtually every violent conflict on earth.

Sooner or later we will have to confront this religion for what it is, the "Religion of Jihad," and the longer we wait, the stronger they become and the weaker, more decadent, dissipated, pacifistic, old, frail, and fewer we become. The birth rates speak for themselves.

Oddly enough at various points in time you could have said the same of just about any religion; especially Christianity.Though I'm hardly willing to so easily condemn a religion especially just because of what seems like a minority.

Though honestly I don't see anyone turning a 'blind eye towards it'.

That said like I argued earlier, from my point of view this is really wrong and needs to change.

But then again as long as Saudia Arabia is a buddy to all the Western states and has oil the cynical part of me believes that no real international deal will be made about it.

Finally, your appealing to emotion by sayying we have to do something now or we're all going to die. Bush has done that for 7 years and it is bullshit when he does it and I call bullshit on you for trying the same stunt.

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned here, but I thought I would provide a quick update:

Her attorney has now had his license revoked and faces a possible disbarment for going to the media with his appeals. The young girl is now without representation and continues to face 200 lashings.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/19/saudi.rape.victim/index.html

ouchies, really really bad ouchies.

Now I'd really like to see what the Muslim world thinks of this and how this is justified. The Unforigiven tried to explain it to me with the original law and now I'd welcome an explaination from a follower of the religion these laws claim to originate from.

The_Unforgiven

11-20-2007, 12:20 PM

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned here, but I thought I would provide a quick update:

Her attorney has now had his license revoked and faces a possible disbarment for going to the media with his appeals. The young girl is now without representation and continues to face 200 lashings.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/19/saudi.rape.victim/index.html

This is an outrage :mad. If you can't defend your verdict, then don't make it!

Islam is as Islam does. Islam is whatever the followers of it do. Which currently includes: high crime rates wherever they immigrate, female genital mutilation, honor killings, wife beating, burqas and male relative 'escorts', dictators over almost all their countries, terrorism across the entire world, internal and external wars, illiteracy, ignorance, poverty, slavery, absurd penal codes, high unemployment, the death penalty for apostates, a complete dearth of nobel prizes or other cultural accomplishments, and screaming mobs who chant 'death to america, death to israel, death to the UK' and cheered in the streets after 9/11. It also includes riots over cartoons, death threats to all of its critics, the death penalty for gays, and rampant anti-semitism.

Like Pandora's box, within Islam is virtually every evil in the whole world, a basket case just waiting to be released upon the unsuspecting world. Even though it now has conquered 1 out of every 6 people on Earth, we still turn a blind eye to it, welcome their immigrants into our countries, ignore their genocides in darfur, and passively permit the subhuman barbarous treatment of their women, even praising them with the ridiculously orwellian term "Religion of Peace" at a time when they are responsible for virtually every violent conflict on earth.

Sooner or later we will have to confront this religion for what it is, the "Religion of Jihad," and the longer we wait, the stronger they become and the weaker, more decadent, dissipated, pacifistic, old, frail, and fewer we become. The birth rates speak for themselves.

Alright. So now I can assume all americans are Bush, because America is as america does.

Sesshoumaru

11-20-2007, 01:55 PM

Your Lord has seen such punishments since the first day he hit ashore.

Too bad vigilantism would cause an international incident.

Zabuzalives

11-20-2007, 02:00 PM

Alright. So now I can assume all americans are Bush, because America is as america does.

You dont get it huh?

I am not saying take 1 part of a group and generalize. Diamed isnt doing that either.

We just say that ALL parts of a group shape the view of a group!!

So if asked: Is America peaceful.
I would answer, that there are pacifist groups, but there is a large group that are very militaristic, especially government and neo-cons.
So basically...no, compared to lets say the Netherlands..its not that peaceful.

Similar to Islam. Is islam the most peaceful religion on earth?? Well then i look at Islam as a whole.

i am NOT going to ignore parts of Islam. (interpretations and followers) just because they embarrass you, or you rather want to ignore them/forget them as well..

So as such i would say NO, cause Islam has some serious problems with people hijacking the belief, distorting its message. (its message isnt all that epacefull compared to lets say Buddhism, but lets keep it to interpretations in practice) and entire countries falling to radicalism and fundamentalism.

i was told that, and got negrepped by four idiots.

I get negrepped for saying the truth also. I wonder how many muslims neg-repped the_unforgiven for being in favor of killing apostates.

that proves that moderates dont care, or that they arent really moderate.

another good point. They dont really care, or they are mildly positive. Atleast secretly happy at their actiosn and effects on the world.
Such as Meng, who supports Al-Qaeda. He disagreed with their views, but was happy for their ""resistance""

So That ""very small minority"" just got a little bigger...again. I would say its a minority. When whole countries fall under its spell, you can scracth ""very"" and ""small"" before minority.

Oddly enough at various points in time you could have said the same of just about any religion; especially Christianity.Though I'm hardly willing to so easily condemn a religion especially just because of what seems like a minority.

Yes, yes it can and it HAS. do you know how much the Crusades and inquisition etc, negatively affect view on Christianity. How bombing abortion clinics affect view?

You havent seen all the atheist threads about how religion is bad etc.

This used to be solely against Christianity, because there was a good decade that saying something against the multicultural paradise, was really considered bad form for a leftie.

(in the netherlands)

Though honestly I don't see anyone turning a 'blind eye towards it'.

all i see from many muslims are excuses to wave of responsibility.

""its a VERY SMALL minority.""

""its not true Islam.""

Many of these radical ideas can only exist and spread BECAUSE so many in the muslim community are turning a blind eye towards it.

Black Wraith

11-20-2007, 02:00 PM

Sesshoumaru

11-20-2007, 02:16 PM

How many people here arguing against Islam know the difference in Islam between Zina and rape?

Zina= Adultery with both partners conseting.

Rape(forced sex)= Is the same as British sex however in Islam a man cannot be raped only women.

Islam is a monotheistic religion originating with the teachings of Muhammad, a 7th century Arab religious and political figure. The word Islam means "submission", or the total surrender of oneself to God, or in Arabic, Allah.

Zina is extramartial sex for men and women and is punishable by Islamic Law. It is considered to be for the protection of men and women and for the respect of marriage. It is considered one of the greatest sins and would not only result in punishment before death, but such sinners will be punished after death unless they atone for their sins according to Shari'a Law.

Rape is too obvious.

No, I did not get this from the internet. This Sesshoumaru must know the enemy.

Islam and Islamic Law have one major difference - Islam is the teaching of Muhammad to the people. Islamic Law is the laws set down by people of the region in which they live their public and private lives. This mainly applies to the Middle East and few communities in the world which associate with that region. Islam and Islamic Law, or Shari'a, have very little association.

The_Unforgiven

11-20-2007, 02:20 PM

You dont get it huh?

I am not saying take 1 part of a group and generalize. Diamed isnt doing that either.

We just say that ALL parts of a group shape the view of a group!!

So if asked: Is America peaceful.
I would answer, that there are pacifist groups, but there is a large group that are very militaristic, especially government and neo-cons.
So basically...no, compared to lets say the Netherlands..its not that peaceful.

Similar to Islam. Is islam the most peaceful religion on earth?? Well then i look at Islam as a whole.

i am NOT going to ignore parts of Islam. (interpretations and followers) just because they embarrass you, or you rather want to ignore them/forget them as well..

So as such i would say NO, cause Islam has some serious problems with people hijacking the belief, distorting its message. (its message isnt all that epacefull compared to lets say Buddhism, but lets keep it to interpretations in practice) and entire countries falling to radicalism and fundamentalism.

Diamed is saying that islam is what the followers do, which is not the case. Islam is the monotheistic religon that was revealed to prophet mohammad through the archangel Gabriel. What Diamed said makes no sense, because ,for example, some muslims drink. Is that islam? I don't think so.

The_Unforgiven

11-20-2007, 02:22 PM

No, I did not get this from the internet. This Sesshoumaru must know the enemy.
Little too harsh?

T4R0K

11-20-2007, 02:35 PM

No, I did not get this from the internet. This Sesshoumaru must know the enemy.

I suddenly feel very uneasy... Like, being stuck between someone not from my religion classifying me me as an enemy because of some shitheads in my religion and someone from my religion classifying me as an enemy for not being enough like them...

At this rate, I'll end up an angry atheist.

Black Wraith

11-20-2007, 02:39 PM

Islam and Islamic Law have one major difference - Islam is the teaching of Muhammad to the people. Islamic Law is the laws set down by people of the region in which they live their public and private lives. This mainly applies to the Middle East and few communities in the world which associate with that region. Islam and Islamic Law, or Shari'a, have very little association.
Islam is a religion like all others based on laws, rules and regulations and similar to other religion most of the law's, rules and regulations are personal and between the person and his Lord (e.g. praying, charity). However just like all the other religions there are law's, rules and regulations that restrict a person from doing somethings which will (if found guilty by the courts) be punnished by the law, these are called Hudood/limits (set out by God), some of these are; murder, robbery and adultery etc. These Hudood are set in stone and cannot be changed.

In the one of the most famous books on Islamic law called Qudoori states what I stated in my previous post.

Similar to English law the MP's make some laws and the majoroty of the laws are made through case laws. Change the words around: In Islamic law God made some of the laws and the majority are made through the courts.
This does not mean that they are serperate.

It's like saying that your a Briton but the British laws do not apply to you whilst in Briton, both go hand in hand.

BTW, you just called me an innocent, your enemy.

Sesshoumaru

11-20-2007, 02:46 PM

BTW, you just called me an innocent, your enemy.

Of course. That was this Sesshoumaru's very intension.

Zabuzalives

11-20-2007, 02:48 PM

Diamed is saying that islam is what the followers do, which is not the case. Islam is the monotheistic religon that was revealed to prophet mohammad through the archangel Gabriel. What Diamed said makes no sense, because ,for example, some muslims drink. Is that islam? I don't think so.

he wasnt talking about it in that way.

What followers do in the name of the religion, what followers claim as being part, or true form of that religion.

Lets say you and your brother start a new religion (Islam v2) based on some texts.

You have the interpretation that all apostates should be killed.

Your brother does not agree, he interprets it differentely, and does not think they should be killed.

As an outsider I see two different interpretations/streams of Islam v2.
Islam v2 as a whole is mixed on the issue of killing apostates.

Now lets say your brother passes away. (or you convince/force him to change his mind)

Now all thats left is your interpretation. Which you will teach as the right and only proper interpretation of islam v2 to all your children/followers.

So all followers of Islam v2 are now in favor of killing apostates.

As an outsider, Islam v2 stands for killing apostates now....

Lets say you pass away or are convinced/forced to changte your mind.
The interpretation that apostates do NOT deserve death is spread. Al followers adhere to that interpretation. That is the ""right"one.

What does Islam v2 stands for now? on this issue?

Exactly, for not killing apostates.

Basically this is a simplified example on how interpretation shapes a religion.
Sure you have scripture, but this can always be differentely interpreted or ignored. So that how people practise Islam, its effect on the world, is different.

Example2: scripture says: "turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour""
But then a religion leader says. Well thats just about Christian neighbours, turn the cheek to other Christians.
Every filthy haethen and non-believer should be slaughtered though!

And all followers would go: yeah your right, this is the only correct interpretation! This will be taught as the right way to practise our religion.

So, off they go, murdering and slaughtering as they pass.

So, one asks, Are christians peaceful? (followers) is the religion peaceful?

No, only the scripture can be interpreted as peaceful. But that message was changed and now followers and the religion in practise, in its effects and influences on the world is very violent.

Outlandish

11-20-2007, 03:09 PM

he wasnt talking about it in that way.

Don't be defending the delusional diamed, he was talking about it that way, where in the Quran does it say circumsize women, commit crime blah blah blah.

What followers do in the name of the religion, what followers claim as being part, or true form of that religion.

That would be sectarianism right ? a total different topic.

No, only the scripture can be interpreted as peaceful. But that message was changed and now followers and the religion in practice, in its effects and influences on the world is very violent.

Of course they can we are only human.

also you're analogy (Islam v2) is no good when comparing to the orignal Islam our message was totally completed also we have highly educated people and 4 different schools of thought trying to understand the Quran and what it says.

Why bring Christianity into this ? this is about the corrupt (good friends of USA) Saudi regime.

Soldier

11-20-2007, 03:39 PM

Well i know where I'm not going on vacation. That just ... cruel why punish the victim when you can punish the criminal? :blink Odd.

drache

11-20-2007, 03:53 PM

I suddenly feel very uneasy... Like, being stuck between someone not from my religion classifying me me as an enemy because of some shitheads in my religion and someone from my religion classifying me as an enemy for not being enough like them...

At this rate, I'll end up an angry atheist.

The probelm here is that there are many professed muslims that support laws like this one and when a country professes to live by the laws of Islam and something like this happens then what conculusion can you draw but that Islam is backwards, discriminatory and all those other things?

Islam seems to be in an identity crisis as many professed devout muslims support such laws, entire countries are supposedly using laws like these because Islam says to; and yet there are people like you that are very much the moderates.

If it makes you feel any better at least here in the US Christianity is having a similair crisis where the moderate, reasonable people who still really believe in the teachings of Jesus are starkly contrasted by the extermists who cling to a style of Christainity that only really exists in there head.

The same probably ist true of Islam in that the extermists are wrong, however I didn't grow up Muslim so I don't know what to think except what I see by the news. And such stories like these do alot of damage to Islam's reputation; justifiably or not.

T4R0K

11-20-2007, 04:12 PM

and yet there are people like you that are very much the moderates.

Well, hearing what the "moderates" say, I'd rather define myself as a very liberal muslim. More moderate than a moderate. So "moderate" even moderates can't like me.

And such stories like these do alot of damage to Islam's reputation; justifiably or not.

I do agree.

Diamed

11-20-2007, 06:08 PM

Zabuzalives

11-20-2007, 06:08 PM

Don't be defending the delusional diamed, he was talking about it that way, where in the Quran does it say circumsize women, commit crime blah blah blah.

I'll let him react himself yeah.

That would be sectarianism right ? a total different topic.

In Afghanistan under the taliban, In Saudi Arabia, in Iran, their interpretations are seen as the proper way to interpret and practice Islam.

Their sectarianism could just leave you as the odd one out. They decide the face of islam. And you are the one following some insignigicant cult.

Of course they can we are only human.

also you're analogy (Islam v2) is no good when comparing to the orignal Islam our message was totally completed also we have highly educated people and 4 different schools of thought trying to understand the Quran and what it says.

lol, and entire countries falling for Salafism and mixing up cultural rules and morals as being islamic.
Shia/sunni.

Or are you saying the taliban interpretation is the rigth one? Al-Qaeda has it right? In which case you are my enemy. You support a barbaric, violent, destructive belief.

Why bring Christianity into this ? this is about the corrupt (good friends of USA) Saudi regime.

Drache initially did.

I just used it because Christians and Christianity in general has undergone a big metamorphosis.

Edo

11-20-2007, 06:20 PM

Alright. So now I can assume all americans are Bush, because America is as america does.

Well actually that is a very sound assumption.

I mean honestly, elected President and Leaders are always a representative of the country they govern, it is only natural....otherwise they would not have elected them.

Black Wraith

11-20-2007, 06:28 PM

Of course. That was this Sesshoumaru's very intension.

You want war, I'll give you war!

smile-big

Outlandish

11-20-2007, 08:00 PM

I'll let him react himself yeah.

In Afghanistan under the taliban, In Saudi Arabia, in Iran, their interpretations are seen as the proper way to interpret and practice Islam.

Actually i don't think so, it's just people in power perverting ideals to further their agenda interests, i mean growing and selling drugs in Afghanistan sounds like a twisted ideal to me even though the rules on drugs are quite concrete. Though they probably used islam to justify it to the people.

Their sectarianism could just leave you as the odd one out. They decide the face of islam. And you are the one following some insignigicant cult.

they are cults now ? Okay :huh and i don't think im part of a minority.

lol, and entire countries falling for Salafism and mixing up cultural rules and morals as being islamic.
Shia/sunni.

Well that's what happens with corrupt regimes i mean it happens everywhere don't you think. They just control the people by any means necessary.

Or are you saying the taliban interpretation is the rigth one? Al-Qaeda has it right? In which case you are my enemy. You support a barbaric, violent, destructive belief.

When or how did i even imply that ? I'm sure if i supported those views i would certainlly not be posting on an anime forum.

Drache initially did.

okay.

I just used it because Christians and Christianity in general has undergone a big metamorphosis.

Yup, but how does that relate ?

sarun uchiha

11-20-2007, 08:13 PM

This is an outrage :mad. If you can't defend your verdict, then don't make it!
I agree!
Your Lord has seen such punishments since the first day he hit ashore.

Too bad vigilantism would cause an international incident.
I don't understand!:huh
How many people here arguing against Islam know the difference in Islam between Zina and rape?

Zina= Adultery with both partners conseting.

Rape(forced sex)= Is the same as British sex however in Islam a man cannot be raped only women.
So, in Islam, a man cannot be raped by a woman?:amazed
It's a very simple message, and you guys can't get around it: Islam is as Islam does. Islam is the sum total, good and bad, of every action done by every muslim in the world. Considering most of your economy is done by foreign workers who pump the oil for you, and that you contribute nothing to scientific progress, and no muslim work of art reaches us like harry potter reaches you, and most of your people lack freedom and live in poverty, I'm gonna put a big 0 on the good part. Then for the bad part I quickly learn you're responsible for almost all the crime in Europe, terrorist attacks worldwide, mass slaughters of your own people in Iraq, Sudan, Algeria, etc---well I add this up and I put up a big "-".
I would like to point out that during middle ages, Muslims discovered many scientific and mathematical facts and have written many great pieces of literature! Although these happened centuries ago, they still contributed!

Sirah

11-20-2007, 08:19 PM

I really don't understand some cultures....the victim was punished???

the culture isnt wrong... its the cuntry ,

that cuntry is really fucked up now :pek

sarun uchiha

11-20-2007, 10:13 PM

This is one of the reason how oil can let you do anything, almost, of course there are exceptions!

The_Unforgiven

11-20-2007, 11:00 PM

he wasnt talking about it in that way.

What followers do in the name of the religion, what followers claim as being part, or true form of that religion.

Lets say you and your brother start a new religion (Islam v2) based on some texts.

You have the interpretation that all apostates should be killed.

Your brother does not agree, he interprets it differentely, and does not think they should be killed.

As an outsider I see two different interpretations/streams of Islam v2.
Islam v2 as a whole is mixed on the issue of killing apostates.

Now lets say your brother passes away. (or you convince/force him to change his mind)

Now all thats left is your interpretation. Which you will teach as the right and only proper interpretation of islam v2 to all your children/followers.

So all followers of Islam v2 are now in favor of killing apostates.

As an outsider, Islam v2 stands for killing apostates now....

Lets say you pass away or are convinced/forced to changte your mind.
The interpretation that apostates do NOT deserve death is spread. Al followers adhere to that interpretation. That is the ""right"one.

What does Islam v2 stands for now? on this issue?

Exactly, for not killing apostates.

Basically this is a simplified example on how interpretation shapes a religion.
Sure you have scripture, but this can always be differentely interpreted or ignored. So that how people practise Islam, its effect on the world, is different.

Example2: scripture says: "turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour""
But then a religion leader says. Well thats just about Christian neighbours, turn the cheek to other Christians.
Every filthy haethen and non-believer should be slaughtered though!

And all followers would go: yeah your right, this is the only correct interpretation! This will be taught as the right way to practise our religion.

So, off they go, murdering and slaughtering as they pass.

So, one asks, Are christians peaceful? (followers) is the religion peaceful?

No, only the scripture can be interpreted as peaceful. But that message was changed and now followers and the religion in practise, in its effects and influences on the world is very violent.

You don't seem to get it do you? Not everyone can interpret the scriptures and still consider himself correct. There are certain criteria to do that. That's why your analogy fails.

And in the end, whatever injustice happened, there is the day of judgement so everyone will be prosecuted fairly.

Well actually that is a very sound assumption.

I mean honestly, elected President and Leaders are always a representative of the country they govern, it is only natural....otherwise they would not have elected them

Not neccesarily. He might've changed since they elected him, or lied or whatever.

maj1n

11-21-2007, 04:14 AM

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Saudi-defends-gangrape-victims-verdict/2007/11/21/1195321818789.html

Man that is some screwed up country, its just like Pakistan.

edit: sorry saw the other thread, msged mod to close this.

maj1n

11-21-2007, 05:08 AM

I believe Toby_Christ requested some information of Islam and rape and segregation of men and women.

Firstly, rape is not inherently wrong in Islam, as Muhammad allowed it when capturing female slaves.

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html#003.046.718

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."
-http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.137

Coitus interruptus is having sex but withdrawing once your going to ejaculate, btw those hadiths also show slaves were taken and is also taken that contraception is wrong.

Now the charge is that the woman should not, in Islam, be near men that are not related to her, this is indeed quite an established ruling in Islamic jurisprudence, it mainly is an extension of the various rulings that a man or woman even looking at another are guilty of adultery, thus to prevent this, the sexes are kept separate.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Isa At-Tirmidhi recorded that Abu Musa, may Allah be pleased with him, said that the Prophet said:
(Every eye commits fornication and adultery, and when a woman puts on perfume and passes through a gathering, she is such and such) -- meaning an adulteress. He said, "And there is a similar report from Abu Hurayrah, and this is Hasan Sahih.'' It was also recorded by Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i. By the same token, women are also forbidden to walk in the middle of the street, because of what this involves of wanton display.

Somewhat echoed in:
The eyes commit Zina, the hands commit Zina and feet commit Zina and the genitals commit Zina.
-Musnad Ahmad

d3l

11-21-2007, 06:11 AM

The reason the woman gets jailed (and prob. the 90 lashes) is not because of the rape, but because she was with an unrelated male person. That's not allowed according the shariah law in Saudi Arabia.

Black Wraith

11-21-2007, 07:30 AM

So, in Islam, a man cannot be raped by a woman?:amazed

Same as British law.

maj1n

11-21-2007, 07:36 AM

Same as British law.
Can you elaborate please.

Black Wraith

11-21-2007, 07:42 AM

Can you elaborate please.
Under English law, it is not possible for a woman to rape a man. Both women and men can be prosecuted for sexual assault under section 3 of the 2003 act if they touches a person of either sex sexually without consent. A person of either sex can also be prosecuted for intentionally causing another to engage in sexual activity without consent under section 4, a crime which carries a maximum life sentence if it involves penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina. Section 2 of the 2003 Act introduces a new sexual offence, "assault by penetration", with the same punishment as rape. It is committed when someone sexually penetrates the anus or vagina with a part of his or her body, or with an object, without that person's consent. [1]

A woman assisting a man commit a rape can be prosecuted for the crime as an accessory.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_about_rape#English_law

Twirl

11-21-2007, 08:22 AM

lol, thats their creative way of thinking... they want to be different. Wouldn't it be interesting if the judge punished himself for the crimes...

neko-sennin

11-21-2007, 02:03 PM

I would like to point out that during middle ages, Muslims discovered many scientific and mathematical facts and have written many great pieces of literature! Although these happened centuries ago, they still contributed!

Yes, but what have they done lately? This is the point some of us are trying to make. Modern Islam has fallen into its own Dark Age, much like how Europe did centuries ago, dominated by illiteracy, ignorance, and blind superstition, and a religious monopoly perverting the spiritual teachings of its own founders. Force of arms can no more save them than it can save the West from our own wasteful consumption.

The only thing that can break this vicious circle is enlightenment and understanding. As long as despots and demagogues hold the mic, they will be the ones who define "Islam", both in their own respective countries, as well as for the rest of the world.

Ennoea

11-21-2007, 03:03 PM

It's a very simple message, and you guys can't get around it: Islam is as Islam does. Islam is the sum total, good and bad, of every action done by every muslim in the world. Considering most of your economy is done by foreign workers who pump the oil for you, and that you contribute nothing to scientific progress, and no muslim work of art reaches us like harry potter reaches you, and most of your people lack freedom and live in poverty, I'm gonna put a big 0 on the good part. Then for the bad part I quickly learn you're responsible for almost all the crime in Europe, terrorist attacks worldwide, mass slaughters of your own people in Iraq, Sudan, Algeria, etc---well I add this up and I put up a big "-".

Go ahead and judge America by what it does. You'll notice something magical about the United States. We produce 30% of the entire world's goods. Nobel Prize winners every year, Ipods, World of Warcraft, Halo, boeing aircraft, the international space station--wherever you turn your life is being made better by americans. Then you look at the USA coming to help the bangladeshis hit by the cyclone, or how we delivered aid after the tsunami, and it turns out we're saving millions of lives, or you see us at the front line in the war on terror---the only nation willing to die to set other men free. By now it's traditional in America. We did it in the civil war, we did it in both world wars, we did it in the cold war, and now we're doing it in Iraq and Afghanistan. Each time america has freed millions of people from cruel dictatorships and given them permanent grounds for hope. If you judge us by our actions, you'll have no choice but to admit we're the greatest and most benevolent force on earth and human history.

I've never read such rubbish in my life. The US can act all liberal but its one of the most conservative countries in the world where everytype of prejudice and racism is allowed to flourish. As for its world role, the US it self is an illegal country which was built on the genocide of its native people. Its world role before WW was one of Isolationism and only joined WW2 was to help it lift out of the economic depression. I don't really support any of the eastern regimes but the US is hardly any role model. As for world contribution then you must have lost me, most of the products in the world are made by China, Ipod you say? Well it was built by under paid chinese workers being treated like crap due to the US wanting cheap goods, no to mention the treatment of so many workers in Asia, Africa and South America just so they can help the US economy.

As for Terrorism then the US comes out on top. Most regimes in the East were set up by the US. How did Saddam get in to power? Well even though he was commiting genocide the US didn't mind as he was doing their bidding. And then they supplied weapons to both Iran and Iraq and helped create conflict. As for Israel, the US has continually provided them with weapons and helped to supress the muslims that were there to begin with. The Muslims homes destroyed, their lives taken away and pushed back so the Jews could set up their own settlements. Thats what I call terrorism. Not to mention the trouble they've caused in Africa, and the fact that they nuked a country and have the gall to accuse Iran of being a "threat to the world".

As for Muslim contribution. Im not even gonna bother to tell you everything so here:

http://www.khwarzimic.org/contribution-muslim/facts.html
Need I say more than in your face:P

Btw the space station was also built by the Russians, Japan and many other European countries not just the US:notrust

And if Muslims had their way then they could crush the US economy very easily. You can say whatever you want but most of the oil reserves belong to the Muslims and the US has been given cheap oil for years and helped the US economy flourish. If all the Oil stopped then what do you think would happen to the world economy? And don't say that the muslims countries really need the money since its never given to the people anyway. Oha nd the US also set up the Royal family in Arabia, monarchy is illegal under Islamic Law. They were set up to do US bidding.

skunkworks

11-21-2007, 03:06 PM

Silly Islam.

Zabuzalives

11-21-2007, 03:14 PM

You don't seem to get it do you? Not everyone can interpret the scriptures and still consider himself correct.

Ehmm, I can read the Qúran right now, make an interpretation and feel that i am correct. Problem lies in making others think you are correct.

There are certain criteria to do that. That's why your analogy fails.

no it doesnt. I just simplified it. As long as you have very liberal muslims, and Al-Qaeda memebers screaming for blood, i would say there is a whole range of difference of opinion of what is justified by Islam, or how you should practice and interpret Islam.

And in the end, whatever injustice happened, there is the day of judgement so everyone will be prosecuted fairly.

yeah...but just in case. I would want to make THIS world somewhat live-able as well.

Zabuzalives

11-21-2007, 03:24 PM

Actually i don't think so,
it's just people in power perverting ideals to further their agenda interests, i mean growing and selling drugs in Afghanistan sounds like a twisted ideal to me even though the rules on drugs are quite concrete. Though they probably used islam to justify it to the people.

Its not just that, if you spoonfeed people that interpretation/view, it begins to live a life of its own. Those people will view it as right.

they are cults now ? Okay :huh and i don't think im part of a minority.

didnt say they were, Said that you might be reduced to a minority, and your interpretation be viewed as incorrect/cultist.

Shia/sunni.

and you have various levels of how fundamentalist/radical they are.

Well that's what happens with corrupt regimes i mean it happens everywhere don't you think. They just control the people by any means necessary.

Yes, they even change a religion in a warped version of itself.

When or how did i even imply that ? I'm sure if i supported those views i would certainlly not be posting on an anime forum.

lol you would be suprised. Even on this forum there are those in favor of killing apostates (Unforgiven). there are those supporting Al-Qaeda. (Mengde)

Several of the Islamic texts given by Majin etc. are FAR from peaceful.

I asked to be sure. Maybe you were under the impression Saudi Arabia, Iran have the right interpretation of Islam.

Yup, but how does that relate ?

To show religion (its practice and its effects/influence) and its followers can change.

Asmodeus

11-21-2007, 05:00 PM

It's what happens when the lines between church and state cease to exist. The only people who will ever rule are ones that can make themselves heard the most. Extremists excel in that aspect. So, when you have a nation dominated by religious rule, who do you think your officials are going to be?

I would have more respect for the Islamic faith in general if they'd throw off the yoke of the over-bearing oppressors that rule them. Faith is personal, not a political agenda. It's made political by cowards and power-hungry fiends. If Islamic people want respect for themselves and their faith, they need to take it back from the murderers and zealots that have stolen it away from them.

Red

11-21-2007, 05:03 PM

Oh wow :facepalm

Edo

11-21-2007, 06:33 PM

The Saudi justice ministry has defended the verdict and warned against "agitation through the media" - a sign of how sensitive the authorities are to the fact that the woman and her lawyer have sought to use the media to highlight the case, says BBC Middle East analyst Roger Hardy.

Meanwhile, Mrs Clinton, the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination in the US presidential elections, strongly condemned the Saudi sentence.

"The Bush administration has refused to condemn the sentence and said it will not protest against an internal Saudi decision," she said.

"I urge President Bush to call on King Abdullah to cancel the ruling and drop all charges against this woman. As president I will once again make human rights an American priority around the world."

A State Department spokesman on Tuesday called the verdict "astonishing".

The US-based Human Rights Watch said it sends victims of sexual violence the message that they should not press charges.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7106234.stm

just proving my previous post...now if this had happened in Iran, it would have been a sound reason to start bombing Iran.

sarun uchiha

11-21-2007, 08:55 PM

Oil, that is what international community from strongly condemning this!

Outlandish

11-21-2007, 09:23 PM

Its not just that, if you spoonfeed people that interpretation/view, it begins to live a life of its own. Those people will view it as right.

of course, that is the point.

didnt say they were, Said that you might be reduced to a minority, and your interpretation be viewed as incorrect/cultist.

i don't think so, the Suicide and Death to America peeps are certainly the minority.

and you have various levels of how fundamentalist/radical they are.

wut ? i didn't say Shia/sunni that was me forggetin to put that in the quota XD

Yes, they even change a religion in a warped version of itself.

yup, that's what people in power do.

lol you would be suprised. Even on this forum there are those in favor of killing apostates (Unforgiven). there are those supporting Al-Qaeda. (Mengde)

how does that make them extreme ? i am also a supporter of Al-qaeda i read it everyday :nod

Several of the Islamic texts given by Majin etc. are FAR from peaceful.

of course, if viewed in the wrong context most of them apply to war and certain situations, you should know that by now. Unless you can only use that in an argument :wink

I asked to be sure. Maybe you were under the impression Saudi Arabia, Iran have the right interpretation of Islam.

not really. No country really is.

To show religion (its practice and its effects/influence) and its followers can change.

well they don't all change a certain Top Gear episode will prove you otherwise :P

and stop putting the blame on Islam, the blame should be on the people a lone stop covering in a blanket of blame.

maj1n

11-21-2007, 09:43 PM

how does that make them extreme ? i am also a supporter of Al-qaeda i read it everyday :nod

How is killing ex-Muslims because they are ex-Muslims extreme?

wow, nice to see yet another muslim on this board totally demolish the image of the 'moderate' Muslim.

Sean Connery

11-21-2007, 09:48 PM

ok I am sick of hearing about this crap

Kalep

11-21-2007, 10:21 PM

Well maybe she should of just layed back and enjoyed it :laugh

But seriously that was really fucked up that she got punished.

Zabuzalives

11-21-2007, 10:45 PM

of course, that is the point.

and they get away with it so easily.

i don't think so, the Suicide and Death to America peeps are certainly the minority.

dont give me this bullshit. I am not only talking about the suicide bombers, but the whole of fundamentalist/radical interpretations of Islam.

The taliban were a majority in good parts of Afghanistan.

Iran is a theocracy. Algeria where democracy would destroy itself. Hamas getting the majority votes.

muslim schools teaching dangerous interpretations of Salafism.

I am talking about that these numbers change, certain interpretations gain power. I am talking about that what is now a minority..can become a majority.

wut ? i didn't say Shia/sunni that was me forggetin to put that in the quota XD

ok

yup, that's what people in power do.

yeah, and they can change a religion. Now if they succesfully eradicate the old style and practices....THEIR rules will become the new form.

how does that make them extreme ? i am also a supporter of Al-qaeda i read it everyday :nod

I guess we have totally different interpretations on whats ""moderate"" then.

of course, if viewed in the wrong context most of them apply to war and certain situations, you should know that by now. Unless you can only use that in an argument :wink

Who decides what is the right context? thats right, humans. subjective humans. Perhaps YOUR context is the wrong one?

not really. No country really is.

well, they are still spokesmen of Islam. followers of Islam. Their actiosn and words shape the image that the rest of the world has of Islam.

change Islam itself. If they ever succeed to enforce their views enough.

well they don't all change a certain Top Gear episode will prove you otherwise :P

never claimed that was so.

and stop putting the blame on Islam, the blame should be on the people a lone stop covering in a blanket of blame.

followers can change a religion. Through interpretation and different practices.

Look at the difference between Jews and Christians, between Protestants and Catholics. between Shia and Sunni.

I am simply saying that the face of Islam is also shaped by its followers.

And it isnt such a pretty sight thanks to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban, Al-Qaeda.

I am not ""blaming Islam""

just saying that the arguments: ""very small minority"" (scratch ""very"" and ""small"" next time) AND ""that is not true Islam"", are both FAR too often used to wave off all responsibility and choose a path of inaction.

Mr. Obvious

11-21-2007, 11:39 PM

damnit america should get the hell out of iraq already and nuke these bastards ASAP

Sean Connery

11-22-2007, 12:00 AM

damnit america should get the hell out of iraq already and nuke these bastards ASAP

been saying that for years

Xion

11-22-2007, 12:15 AM

damnit america should get the hell out of iraq already and nuke these bastards ASAP

You should have some Kool-Aid to go with those waffles and pancakes. :LOS

Diamed

11-22-2007, 12:50 AM

makenshi was doing a pun. Al Qaeda also means a madrassa school program where you learn standard stuff about islam. He's just being silly.

Cirus

11-22-2007, 03:14 AM

In a country where religion rules, then people will get no justice. In a country where the leaders also lead the faith, then people will get no justice. In a country where faith oppresses people, then the people will get no justice. In a country where religion rules choice, then people will get no justice. In a country where religion has the power, then the people will have no justice.

Religion is something that should have any power in government. Having faith in something is good, but when you let it determine your entire life and how you judge others, then you are no better then a dictartor who hurts his people.

Sean Connery

11-22-2007, 04:22 AM

this is probally why I haven't been involved much in my church

Edo

11-22-2007, 07:41 AM

damnit america should get the hell out of iraq already and nuke these bastards ASAP

mmmm.....that seems to be the USA's answer to every problem.

Diamed

11-22-2007, 07:56 AM

Edo

11-22-2007, 08:16 AM

nukes aren't an effective weapon against this enemy. A few radicals hide in caves while holding the civilian population as hostages. If there's a known terrorist cell, we have to go in there and take it out on foot. If we don't know where they are, we can't just flail around killing people blindly. I'm afraid even if they nuke us, we can't nuke them back. The people/state didn't nuke us after all, and we'd just be killing innocents if we nuked them. We have to one by one pick out the actual terrorists and kill them. We need to convince the ordinary muslim to change what Islam means and rejoin the modern world, and until then, we need to make sure they don't have access to WMD, and kill all funders or organizers of terrorism we can find with our intelligence. It's a long, slow, expensive, and thankless war.

lolz.....morality is not even on the USA's list in any of the wars it has been through over the last decade.

The USA goes to war for 2 things, domination and economy....to crush any potential future enemy and to maintain enough supplies (oil) for its economy.

If morality was the issue and spreading freedom, well there are many other places to start from, why not start from there?

Please do not insult our intelligence coming here and posting posts like that.

maj1n

11-22-2007, 08:27 AM

lolz.....morality is not even on the USA's list in any of the wars it has been through over the last decade.

The USA goes to war for 2 things, domination and economy....to crush any potential future enemy and to maintain enough supplies (oil) for its economy.

If morality was the issue and spreading freedom, well there are many other places to start from, why not start from there?

Please do not insult our intelligence coming here and posting posts like that.
Why do you want America to babysit the world? every country has to be responsible for its own problems.

Are you so reliant on America that when Saudi Arabia does something wrong, you have to cry for America?

Edo

11-22-2007, 11:02 AM

Why do you want America to babysit the world? every country has to be responsible for its own problems.

Are you so reliant on America that when Saudi Arabia does something wrong, you have to cry for America?

Do you even understand anything I write?

If you've read any of my posts so far you'd know by now that I am all against the USA babysitting the world.

'nough said.

origami.sanity

11-22-2007, 11:41 AM

I've heard this one before. I can't really say anything other than the fact that I strongly disagree with their disciplinary code. But I do think citizens over there should revolt (opposing not this particular case, but certain overall aspects of it), although I'm not sure if that would go over fairly well.

I just know that something needs to be done without them becoming unfairly reliant on the US.

Diamed

11-22-2007, 12:24 PM

Edo: Your hatred and ignorance can be answered pretty quickly. How much do you think our war in Iraq has cost us?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html

Iraq war could top the $2 trillion mark

That sum seems a little high for thieves trying to turn a profit. Furthermore, your insinuation that Americans would sacrifice 4,000 of our soldiers to enrich ourselves at the cost of their lives is sickening. Of course, it's no different from how we caused 9/11 on ourselves, killing 3,000 of our own people, and another trillion dollars, just so we could put in motion this steal the oil plan, which will cost another 2 trillion dollars, and another 4,000 dead, right? So now that we've murdered 7,000 of our own people and paid 3 trillion of our own dollars, our mercenary goals are really revealed.

Furthermore, when do we get to start stealing the oil for free, instead of buying it like everyone else at the market price? I'm really eagerly looking forward to that, since, you know, we did this whole war for oil, and it's already been 4 years, and we still haven't gotten one free drop of oil, or even discounted drop of oil, so far.

Now for your second reason, 'potential future enemy'. Huh? We were still at war with Iraq and Saddam Hussein. They were a current enemy. They signed an armistice conditional on fulfilling the UN resolutions, they never did, and so the war resumed, a war they started by invading Kuwait for oil in 1990. Furthermore, radical Islam as a whole declared war on us as early as the 70's, with a constant stream of terrorist attacks hitting our discos, embassies, marine barracks, airliners, ships, etc. The WTC was bombed and nearly destroyed in the early 90's. Following it up, the WTC was destroyed on 9/11/01, where 3,000 people died due to radical Islam. By retaliating against radical Islam and those who fund, harbor, train, or develop WMD radical Islamists could use, we were fighting a current enemy in an ongoing war. Not only Iraq, but we are at war with elements in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, North Korea (who has been spread nuclear know-how and missle delivery systems to terrorist states), and a host of other countries. These are not potential future enemies, they have all contributed their share to the attacks on our country and people, and they all must be defeated and brought to justice as our fair share back at them. The war is on, it isn't a 'distant threat.' It's been going on for decades, and of course, it's really been going on for 1400 years, this is just another phase of it.

Outlandish

11-22-2007, 01:09 PM

Edo: Your hatred and ignorance can be answered pretty quickly. How much do you think our war in Iraq has cost us?

lol edo is fucking awesome, don't call him ignorant! foo

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html

That sum seems a little high for thieves trying to turn a profit. Furthermore, your insinuation that Americans would sacrifice 4,000 of our soldiers to enrich ourselves at the cost of their lives is sickening. Of course, it's no different from how we caused 9/11 on ourselves, killing 3,000 of our own people, and another trillion dollars, just so we could put in motion this steal the oil plan, which will cost another 2 trillion dollars, and another 4,000 dead, right? So now that we've murdered 7,000 of our own people and paid 3 trillion of our own dollars, our mercenary goals are really revealed.

yes and who's gettign that 3 trillion dollars and what companies are profiting of it ?

Furthermore, when do we get to start stealing the oil for free, instead of buying it like everyone else at the market price? I'm really eagerly looking forward to that, since, you know, we did this whole war for oil, and it's already been 4 years, and we still haven't gotten one free drop of oil, or even discounted drop of oil, so far.

yup someone's profiting :wink

Now for your second reason, 'potential future enemy'. Huh? We were still at war with Iraq and Saddam Hussein. They were a current enemy. They signed an armistice conditional on fulfilling the UN resolutions, they never did, and so the war resumed, a war they started by invading Kuwait for oil in 1990.

Under who's orders and don't forget who gave them the weapons :wink

Furthermore, radical Islam as a whole declared war on us as early as the 70's, with a constant stream of terrorist attacks hitting our discos, embassies, marine barracks, airliners, ships, etc. The WTC was bombed and nearly destroyed in the early 90's. Following it up, the WTC was destroyed on 9/11/01, where 3,000 people died due to radical Islam. By retaliating against radical Islam and those who fund, harbor, train, or develop WMD radical Islamists could use, we were fighting a current enemy in an ongoing war. Not only Iraq, but we are at war with elements in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, North Korea (who has been spread nuclear know-how and missle delivery systems to terrorist states), and a host of other countries. These are not potential future enemies, they have all contributed their share to the attacks on our country and people, and they all must be defeated and brought to justice as our fair share back at them. The war is on, it isn't a 'distant threat.' It's been going on for decades, and of course, it's really been going on for 1400 years, this is just another phase of it.

You're gonna have to provide sources for those attacks in the 70's