To Vote Or Not To Vote...THAT Is The Question!

[Purgatory]

Ahh...don't you love the fresh cup of patriotic bullshit in the morning? I do. Speaking of patriotism, I've been thinking of a patriotic "duty" most citizens do: voting. Voting seems to be, by most people, something you have to do in order to prove you have pride on your country (IE nationalism). However, what contradicts so is the freedom of choosing not to do so in the Constitution. People deem others who don't vote are against their country, or whatever crap that spew from their mouths. It reminds me of the episode of King of the Hill where Hank began to really think about voting, and decided not to do so. But, at the last minute, the cliche'd happens, and he votes with his niece, Luanne. What I really want to know is...

How come if we are given the right to choose that we are deemed as "un-American"? Is this also applicable to other countries? What gives those who think that you must vote the right to say such things, especially when living in a country that allows you to choose?

In addition, I'd also like to ask how our votes even matter when choosing for the next president? Do our votes even influence the outcomes of the electoral college's decision?

[Paper Tiger]

I vote in Canadian and UK elections, so the electoral college system doesn't apply to me. I do think it's completely absurd and doesn't appropriately represent the United States, though. You have states where you have large concentrations of both Republicans and Democrats, and it isn't fair for an entire state to be labeled as R or D.

Anyway, as for voting, I firmly believe a person has a right to not vote, but when I hear half the excuses people offer up for not voting, I cringe. Most of them choose not to vote out of sheer laziness... but then complain about the results. Or they claim to be disenfranchised with the political system, without actually understanding how it operates.

If you are not voting because you are protesting the lack of appealing candidates or the very electoral process, that's fine, but I'll take you a great deal more seriously if you actually have an alternative in mind or can explain to me what in particular is wrong. More often than not, it feels like a cop out.

For my part, if ever I feel so disillusioned with the candidates in any given election that I can't bear to give my vote to any of them, I'll show up to vote anyway, and likely write a big FUCK YOU or YOU ARE ALL A WASTE OF MY TIME on my ballot (or possibly something less juvenile and hostile... we'll see :pek). At least, then, I've made the effort, however petty it might appear. Waste of a ballot? Maybe. But at least if enough bad ballots are submitted, someone might notice the trend and investigate it. It's far more proactive than just sitting at home on the sofa, snacking on crisps, watching the coverage on television and complaining to my cat that "it's all rubbish anyway and I can't see why I should vote".

[Link]

The 2000 elections are standing proof that the electoral college is a crock of shit.

[Shaidar Haran]

It's only un-American if you don't vote but feel you must constantly complain about the candidate chosen.

[Purgatory]

It's only un-American if you don't vote but feel you must constantly complain about the candidate chosen.

How old are you, and do you complain about Bush being elected?

[Shaidar Haran]

I'm 18 and will be 19 by next election. No, I don't complain about Bush being elected; however, that should not be construed as me being Republican.

[Pilaf]

I'll keep voting, and many of those votes will keep going to candidates who plan to liquidate the electoral college.

[raisin-gun]

no matter what president you pick, they are all of the same group and purpose, and output. All you get is war, debt and poverty for the poor, and profits for the rich. why bother?

It's only un-American if you don't vote but feel you must constantly complain about the candidate chosen.

unless they candidate lost by one state, and in that state by one vote, I don't see how your vote would matter. nationalism/patriotism is bs. its simply a political tool to make the public look down upon the freethinkers and the people who have the balls to realize their country is scamming them into innevitable poverty.

[Purgatory]

I'll keep voting, and many of those votes will keep going to candidates who plan to liquidate the electoral college.

But what I'm asking is why do people try to undermine those who choose not to vote? Aren't they basically going against the Constitution, which, states, that you have the freedom of choice and expression IE the First Amendment from the Bill of Rights?

[AbnormallyNormal]

well in many ways your vote is pathetic and meaningless all by itself. the whole idea is you should vote AS A BARE MINIMUM of participation, there is a lot else that you can do besides casting a vote. and of course there are so many things you can vote on besides just the presidential election.

[Pilaf]

But what I'm asking is why do people try to undermine those who choose not to vote? Aren't they basically going against the Constitution, which, states, that you have the freedom of choice and expression IE the First Amendment from the Bill of Rights?

That would be all fine and dandy if not for the past seven years... frankly, when the best and the brightest choose to stay at home rather than go to the polls, we get the Patriot Act and the Bush Administration.

Bill of Rights? I remember the Bill of Rights..it was a good thing when it had authority.

[Pilaf]

Personally I am 19 and I am not going to vote until the fucking candidates can say one thing, mean what they say, actually promise to do it and don't change there view on that subject.

Basically Hilliary is out of the fucking question and the fucking sentence with it.

Hillary isn't your only choice... Gravel and Kucinich have never done one thing and said another. Do your research. Either of these men in the Oval Office would be a blessing. Hell, even Ron Paul is better than 90% of the candidates. But these three get censored by mainstream media because they're too honest and say things that the wealthy don't want us to hear.

[Pilaf]

We have a weapon that the old guard can never use against us - the internet.

We will use the internet to spread the truth about the bad candidates, and let people know about the good ones.

The neo con fascists know the internet is against them because they can't twist it to their propaganda. Hillary's ivory tower can only exist in a world where she can use the press to convince people she's some liberal hero riding in on a white horse. I know better, and I will smear her face in the mud on here whenever I can.

We may not put a true progressive in office in 2008, but we can choose not to give our votes to anyone who doesn't deserve them.


Also, I have another plot. I think the law should be changed to involve a "none of the above" option at the polls. That way, we can still vote to show we care, but cast a vote for none of the above to show we don't buy bullshit.

[AbnormallyNormal]

well all of the reasons people give for not voting make no sense and are rather stupid. basically you should vote no matter what, just so you have SOME TINY AMOUNT OF CONTROL over what happens. should we have MUCH MORE votes and more ability to effect speciifc policies instead of just personalities? OF COURSE. thats why we need to try to move to a DIRECT system of democracy

[Karol!]

im 20 so i have not voted in a presidential election yet, but i have voted in local elections, which are probably more important to my way of life anyways. we are all given the option of voting, so i dont see how not voting is somehow un-American. not voting just means you want even less of a say than what you already get. personally, i dont feel people should have the right to complain about a law if they didnt vote for/against it (if they had the opportunity to vote). to me, a no vote simply means that you dont care either way about the turnout of the vote and youre forfeiting any say in that decision to the people who do end up voting.

i dont know how it is in other states, but where i live, there is a minimum voter turnout requirement in order to get anything passed. last year, there was an important law that needed to be passed to help our local schools out a lot, and a majority of the people who voted voted "yes" on the law, but the law didnt pass because not enough people total even voted. i dont agree with this minimum voting requirement at all, but we have to live with it :| and with these movements of people who think that their votes dont matter, it just makes things tougher to get passed.

i dont get why people decide not to vote. what do they have to lose by doing so? with the presidential election, or any other election dealing with elected officials, you dont have to vote either republican or democrat if you dont want to. there are candidates from other parties and independents you can vote for. sure, they most likely wont win but it would be considered a protest vote against the two lead party candidates. that and you never know if the masses will also think your way. if even those candidates fail to impress you, theres always the write-in, which would still be a protest vote.

[Seisokumaru]

South Park summed it up in totality.

Voting (in America, probably elsewhere as well) is the act of picking between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.

Giant Douche spends all the middle-class' money on fighting wars to make their rich buddies slightly richer.

Turd Sandwich spends all the middle-class' money on misguided and abused initiatives to give money to poor people (who generally proceed to spend it on drugs).

Basically I get a choice of whether I want my money to go to making a rich guy 0.000001% richer, or to buy crack for a welfare mom with 16 kids.

Yay me.

[AbnormallyNormal]

South Park summed it up in totality.

Voting (in America, probably elsewhere as well) is the act of picking between a Giant Douche and a Turd Sandwich.

Giant Douche spends all the middle-class' money on fighting wars to make their rich buddies slightly richer.

Turd Sandwich spends all the middle-class' money on misguided and abused initiatives to give money to poor people (who generally proceed to spend it on drugs).

Basically I get a choice of whether I want my money to go to making a rich guy 0.000001% richer, or to buy crack for a welfare mom with 16 kids.

Yay me.

:facepalm you clearly didnt read a single post in the thread.... i blame south park for the sorry state of today's youth

[Seelas]

I think that even if you dislike both candidates, it's very likely that you see one of them as creating a better future for the country than the other. Rudy/Hillary is a groady presidential race, but while I'm not a big fan of Hillary, I'm not going to pretend for a second that she'd be worse than Rudy.

If not out of your own interest, then do it for the interests of others. I wouldn't call you "Un-American" because that just sounds retarded, but I would say that you missed out on a moral opportunity. Not a huge one, but you did.

[Seren]

Honestly, I always kind of figured that the ones who got crapped on the most (as non-voters) are those who said that they don't vote because they believe that their vote means nothing. This is usually either in protest to the electoral college (and I personally fall under that category) or because they're red/blue in a blue/red state and think their vote won't count.

And I think that makes people mad because they want to believe that their vote counts and is the single most important vote in the world. It offends their belief in their own self-importance... so they attack.

[Gaawa-chan]

no matter what president you pick, they are all of the same group and purpose, and output. All you get is war, debt and poverty for the poor, and profits for the rich. why bother?



unless they candidate lost by one state, and in that state by one vote, I don't see how your vote would matter. nationalism/patriotism is bs. its simply a political tool to make the public look down upon the freethinkers and the people who have the balls to realize their country is scamming them into innevitable poverty.

...

Perhaps that is what patriotism is to you. But then, you are speaking solely of the political aspects of government participation. To me, patriotism is far more than punching a hole in a piece of paper and throwing it in a box.

It is true that no matter what we do, we will end up with the scourges of all civilizations- war, poverty, crime, etc- but it is best to swallow that because we will never be without them, and choose the lesser of two evils.

[raisin-gun]

Also, running a campaigne costs a lot of money, you think these people spend their own money? of course not they get sponsorship deals. They deal usually has a benifit for the sponsor. The politician signs a contract with the sponsor that says: If I win I will blah blah blah for the sponsor. So these sponsors are pupeteering the candidates. but they are a minorty compared to the other pupeteers...but that is a different story
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/jonjo90/cryptkeeper.jpg

...

Perhaps that is what patriotism is to you. But then, you are speaking solely of the political aspects of government participation. To me, patriotism is far more than punching a hole in a piece of paper and throwing it in a box.

It is true that no matter what we do, we will end up with the scourges of all civilizations- war, poverty, crime, etc- but it is best to swallow that because we will never be without them, and choose the lesser of two evils.

personally, I despise patriotism, it is what holds us back as a race. Patriotism is being proud of were you were born. You have no choice in that so what's there to be proud of. Globalism is the way to gosmile-big

[Gaawa-chan]

Yet again, that's your interpretation... that doesn't make it absolute.

[Shaidar Haran]

Patriotism is being proud of were you were born.So immigrants can't be patriotic?

[Gaawa-chan]

Ugh... I could write a dozen pages on patriotism if it weren't for my lack of motivation...
To put it simply, there is more to a country than it's government...

[EvilMoogle]

Everyone should vote.

Only well-informed people should vote.

Thus everyone should take the time to be well-informed about their elections before voting.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Honestly, I always kind of figured that the ones who got crapped on the most (as non-voters) are those who said that they don't vote because they believe that their vote means nothing. This is usually either in protest to the electoral college (and I personally fall under that category) or because they're red/blue in a blue/red state and think their vote won't count.

And I think that makes people mad because they want to believe that their vote counts and is the single most important vote in the world. It offends their belief in their own self-importance... so they attack.

you aren't helping to abolish the electoral college or reform the voting process when you simply withdraw from all political participation altogether. also if you think about it, if you vote red in a blue state or blue in a red state, then your vote actually has MORE importance since it will make up a greater % of the total votes cast for that candidate

[mister_manji]

you really should vote. after we stop voting, this country is controlled by the people who do vote. most of them dont agree with what you say, and guess what? they vote, so they make the rules. Want to change that? Vote! cant find something you want to vote for? Then you could probably find something to vote against, right? Do that instead. You don't have to vote on everything. leave some measures blank. only the votes you make count.

[Gaawa-chan]

Everyone should vote.

Only well-informed people should vote.

Thus everyone should take the time to be well-informed about their elections before voting.

I agree. But only if they vote for what I vote for! :P

[AbnormallyNormal]

i have a lot more respect for far right nuts who vote and participate, than totally apathetic moderate people who just dont know anything at all