Toguro vs. Grimmjow

[~Avant~]

Two very strong characters, from their own respective series, as well as major antagonists for the main characters. Both like to fight up close and personal.

Who takes this?

[Keollyn]

Grimmjow. With little difficulty too.

[Orion]

Grimmjow. With little difficulty too.

Gj taking a 100% toguro with little diffuculty?I dont see that happening.

[Keollyn]

How? Flight plus cero spam = little difficulty.

Air bullets would do little to help.

[Orion]

And gj doesnt start off fights spamming gran rey ceros and flying around people he likes to fight head to head alot.

[Life n Discovery]

Grimmjow with relative ease.

[Scum]

he doesn't spam grand cero, but he does spam regular cero. It's his most favorite technique, the guy has used it in the double digits.

Speed-wise, who do you guys believe is the faster of the two? unreleased/released.

[Life n Discovery]

Cero is like a mini Kamehameha.

[~Avant~]

Personally I think Grimmjow just edges out Toguro in speed. But just barely. However Toguro definatly trumps Grimmjow in pure Power.

If Ichigo can deal with Grimmjow's Cero's. Toguro shouldn't have any trouble.

[Scum]

What's Toguro's greatest display of power?

edit: i'll and watch some amvs...

[Life n Discovery]

If Grimmjow releases then its like killing flies when he ceros all day.

[Scum]

Physically: Grabbing Yusuke's max spirit gun (though it did fuck him up)

Attack wise: A bigger crater than what Ubo produced.

I can proved the scan if you want.

ill take your word for it

I just saw an amv in which he grabbed Yusuke's rei shot and destroyed it, but died soon after(his shell broke, or it could have been the maker editing it that way)

i don't think he's much stronger or as strong as released grimmjow.

He'd likely go down once Grimmjow gets serious.

[Demon_Soichiro]

Grimmjow wins.Sorry Toguro fans,i hope you know the reason huh?Grimmjow is faster,stronger and he is some levels above Toguro

[Limit_Tester]

I would love to see people try and prove that Grimmjow is faster than Toguro.

[DarkLordDragon]

Grimmjow take this easily, he is faster, stronger techniques and have a SWORD :P

Grimmjow faster than a truck or a car. Yusuke who was faster than Toguro couldn't escape from the truck easily and he was doing his best to catch up with Sensui's jeep :)

[Demon_Soichiro]

Ok it's your opinion dude

[mystictrunks]

Hoe is Grimmjaw faster then a truck?

[Vicious]

I know i shouldnt use the anime but oh well, he's definetly faster then a truck lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqkbPMMOkKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRy1yisAEB4

[DarkLordDragon]

Well Grimmjow is faster than gun shots, he was even faster than Bankai Ichigo or Byakuya... In his last form he is way faster than Bankai Ichigo who was fighting Byakuya

Zaraki in the movie was as fast as the train, Grimmjow is way faster than Zaraki. (Filler :P)

[Orion]

Well Grimmjow is faster than gun shots, he was even faster than Bankai Ichigo or Byakuya... In his last form he is way faster than Bankai Ichigo who was fighting Byakuya

Zaraki in the movie was as fast as the train, Grimmjow is way faster than Zaraki. (Filler :P)

Actually Id say ichigo has never ever used his speed like he did against byakuya yet,he cracked his bones last time and has never seemed to use that kind of speed again.

[Blizzard chain]

Or it could be that the afterimages were from byakuya's point of view. Now that ichigo is facing people on his own level of speed, he won't be able to do that little feat from their stand point.

[Jetstorm]

I'm giving this to Grimmjow.

[ÐÈPRÈŞŞÈÐ]

Well, regardless of speed, Grimmjow could not do well against Toguro up close. Though, he's likely to do that at first. The best way for him to win is stay at a distance and use Gran Ray Cero and Desgarron.

I'd say 5/10 for either one.

[Shoddragon]

... speed is extremely hard. I might give it to toguro though, 85% power was almost as fast as fully powered yusuke, who shot a rei gun that traveled for miles and miles. That full powered yuske hit toguro ane he flew back like 800 feet or something really hard and even cracked his neck. 100% toguro is at least as fast as that. Plus he has those infinite finger bullets. and they are actually as fast as bullets, he could spam those on grimjow all though, since he cannot run out, he stated this himself.

[Wesker]

Don't use the yusuke not catching a truck crap that stuff is pure pis. I would say grimmjow going all the way could beat toguro but it is not going to be easy.

[Basilikos]

Cero, yes, Gran Rey Cero, no.

Then there's always those spikes or desgarrón.

Toguro can easily heal himself if hit by the spikes or desgarron. He's shown that he can utilize regeneration.

[Aku Shinigami]

I'd give this to Grimmjow. He seems to be a great deal faster and can fly and stay out of the deadly range of Toguro and just hit him repeatedly with long range attacks.

[Pipboy]

Personally its with a mixture of amazement and revulsion that I view the average opinion here. Quite frankly the video of this fight could be sold as a Snuff film to all those Black Book Club members.

[Limit_Tester]

Speed
To understand exactly how fast Toguro is, you need to go back quite a distance. A good start is the Saint Beasts Arc.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/207/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagve2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/1240/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagir2.png
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2989/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagth1.png
So basically, Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting a guy 16 times before he can punch once. This same guy is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second. Using even the lowest numbers possible, that means Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting thousands of times per second.

Yusuke is later able to match a more powerful version of Hiei several volumes later in the manga (although he probably matches Saint Beasts Hiei earlier on):
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7331/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagxl1.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/329/yuuyuuhakushovol6c07pagfn4.png

Toguro fights evenly with a Yusuke that is even faster than the one at the beginning of the Tournament. Not to mention that Yusuke becomes far faster even during the fight with Toguro, and Toguro responds with increases in speed and power.
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2223/yuyuhakushovol12ch08pagbd2.png

Power
Starting with 80% Power:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/346/yuyuhakushovol12ch03pagus2.png
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9448/yuyuhakushovol10ch09pagoa3.png
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2592/yuyuhakushovol10ch09pagyn1.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4823/yuyuhakushovol12ch04pagcy9.png

[Limit_Tester]

Durability
80% Toguro against a shackled Yusuke:
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8707/yuyuhakushovol12ch04pagas6.png
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/543/yuyuhakushovol12ch04pagix9.png
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9397/yuyuhakushovol12ch04paggm8.png
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9113/yuyuhakushovol12ch04pagvw5.png

Yusuke then removes his ki shackles, thus exponentially increasing his power:
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6452/yuyuhakushovol12ch05pagtc5.png

The power balance shifts to Yusuke:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/2158/yuyuhakushovol12ch05pagxv4.png

Until Toguro goes to 100%:
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/3353/yuyuhakushovol12ch06pagar7.png
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1759/yuyuhakushovol12ch07pagkh5.png

Against the unshackled ki Spirit Gun:
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7823/yuyuhakushovol12ch06pagsi7.png
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8158/yuyuhakushovol12ch06pagdr6.png

Not to mention Toguro has an upgrade after 100%....

[Keollyn]

"So basically, Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting a guy 16 times before he can punch once. This same guy is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second. Using even the lowest numbers possible, that means Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting thousands of times per second."

I'd like to point out quite a misrepresentation of this feat. Seiyuu never moved in for an attack on Hiei, so you're given Hiei undeserving numbers.

Oh, and split second is YYH talk for "really fast". Everyone says it (Botan and Keiko said split second before... how well do you believe they can see anyone move or attack in split seconds?)

[Limit_Tester]

"So basically, Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting a guy 16 times before he can punch once. This same guy is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second. Using even the lowest numbers possible, that means Saint Beasts Hiei is capable of cutting thousands of times per second."

I'd like to point out quite a misrepresentation of this feat. Seiyuu never moved in for an attack on Hiei, so you're given Hiei undeserving numbers.

Oh, and split second is YYH talk for "really fast". Everyone says it (Botan and Keiko said split second before... how well do you believe they can see anyone move or attack in split seconds?)

He had his arm outstretched while lunging for an attack. Hiei cut him 16 times before he could do anything. I'm not misrepresenting anything. If anything I'm lowering the numbers. Even if it was only 200 punches in 1/2 a second, that's 400 punches a second. If Hiei was 5 times faster than that, then it is 2000 cuts a second. That's basically the bare minimum.

As for your second point, split second is a timeframe, not comparable to "in an instant." All humans can react and see in split seconds.

[Yupi]

I'd like to point out quite a misrepresentation of this feat. Seiyuu never moved in for an attack on Hiei, so you're given Hiei undeserving numbers. Actually, there was a very important scan missing there:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/315/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagwr8.th.png (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagwr8.png)

The bottom panel shows that Seiryuu had already begun his attack. Hiei moved after Seiryuu had already begun his attack.

Oh, and split second is YYH talk for "really fast". Everyone says it (Botan and Keiko said split second before... how well do you believe they can see anyone move or attack in split seconds?) I agree with this. I think this was yet another liberty taken by Shiraku. In the VIZ Manga, Seiryuu says that "100 punches" were delivered to Byakko. No time frame was mentioned. However, I wonder how accurate even VIZ are.

However, I only remember the referees mentioning attacks in split seconds, or as supersonic, or lightining-fast attacks. When do we hear Botan or Keiko or anyone normal say such things in the Manga?

[Keollyn]

@ Yupi: Look at the scan when he attacked Byakko. He sets the stance, but doesn't attack. Byakko was able to make note of this longer than a split second.

Now the scan you posted, it shows a good deal of distance between them. He starts RUNNING. He's not attacking yet (shows he needs to be close to perform the punches). This goes to show that Hiei simply had better movement speed than Seiyuu. This doesn't prove that Hiei attacked a fast attacker, he just attacked a slow runner.

Even in the scan when he's first shown sliced, Seiyuu's hands is still at his side.

Oh, and another evidence: He utters the name of the move when he does it.

[Limit_Tester]

@ Yupi: Look at the scan when he attacked Byakko. He sets the stance, but doesn't attack. Byakko was able to make note of this longer than a split second.

Now the scan you posted, it shows a good deal of distance between them. He starts RUNNING. He's not attacking yet (shows he needs to be close to perform the punches). This goes to show that Hiei simply had better movement speed than Seiyuu. This doesn't prove that Hiei attacked a fast attacker, he just attacked a slow runner.

Even in the scan when he's first shown sliced, his hands is still at his side.

Huh? So cutting someone 16 times before they can move, let alone blink, does not show greater attack speed? And that same person is capable of punching hundreds of times in a split second.

[Keollyn]

No, I'm not saying Hiei isn't fast. It's a nice feat actually. I just hope it gets represented correctly.

[Yupi]

@ Yupi: Look at the scan when he attacked Byakko. He sets the stance, but doesn't attack. Byakko was able to make note of this longer than a split second. That was because the punching hadn't started yet. Keep in mind that the whole speed argument here is that Hiei managed to react to one of Seiryuu's punches.

Now the scan you posted, it shows a good deal of distance between them. He starts RUNNING. He's not attacking yet (shows he needs to be close to perform the punches). This goes to show that Hiei simply had better movement speed than Seiyuu. This doesn't prove that Hiei attacked a fast attacker, he just attacked a slow runner. I only have two real problems about this. The first is that Seiryuu would not have far to run at all to attack Hiei. Here is the scan:

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/717/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04paglv9.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yuuyuuhakushovol5c04paglv9.png)

When Seiryuu attacked Byakko, there was still some distance between them too, roughly about half of that which seperated Hiei and Seiryuu. The way I see it, especially given how fast YYH characters can move at this point, that running the distance is not so much of a problem.

Even in the scan when he's first shown sliced, Seiyuu's hands is still at his side. This is where the second and much more problem lies. Here is the scan of the scene you mentioned:

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/972/yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagau2.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yuuyuuhakushovol5c04pagau2.png)

You can clearly see that Seiryuu was already in the process of punching. His right arm is no longer at his side: it was clearly wound up, much the same way a punch would be.

This shows two things:

1) Seiryuu closed the distance he needed in order to attack Hiei before Hiei attacked him (or else he would not have wound up his punch).

2) Hiei attacked Seiryuu as Seiryuu was about to punch him. This means that Hiei moved and attacked in less time than it took for Seiryuu to completely throw one punch.

What it shows is that Hiei has greater attacking speed than someone who can throw 100 punches in a fraction of a second.

Oh, and another evidence: He utters the name of the move when he does it. Since he only performed the move once, we can't be sure that he does it every single time. Take a look at Yusuke's Rei Gan. Sometimes he says the name of the attack, sometimes he doesn't.

[Wiser Guy]

Yusuke who was faster than Toguro couldn't escape from the truck easily and he was doing his best to catch up with Sensui's jeep :)

Eh, a character's traveling speed means next to nothing in a manga...Teresa of Claymore couldn't outrun horses, yet she could move faster than the (ordinary) human eye could follow.

[Dragon (banned)]

toguro held back a nuke level sprit gun for awhile, before succumbing to it. he also took a forest leveling spirit gun at 80 %, and didnt have a scratch on him. GJ attack isnt gonna do shit to toguro.

[BRANCHEAD33]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s308/steffydoodles816/toguro2.jpg

he will take it. He showed limitless strength carrying over a stadium on his back. at 30% no less. and at 120%, well grimbitch loses in strength.
if he i able to hurt toguro he will just regenerate. and have we even seen toguro with the actual intention of killing someone.
no? well then... that leaves me to say yyh dt still>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bleach

[Suzumebachi]

Toguro would kill him by looking at him.

[Chocochip]

Hope you know Hiei combat speed wasn't 16 times faster than the guys combat speed. His combat speed was 16 times faster than the guys reaction speed. Reaction speed is always at least twice as better than combat speed.

[Azure-kun]

Grimmjow is taking this fight rather easly provided he uses he actually transforms. he can bitch smack with no more then a screech and then of course his's cero's are even more powerful.......yet again.

[Graham Aker]

Grimmjoe wins, he seems to be faster and his attacks like Cero, Gayrey Cero and Desaguron are pretty destructive, probably as destructive as Yusuke's Reigun when he "woke up".

[SoulTaker540]

Grimmjow wins but I don't think he pulls this one out easily. Toguro will do some damage against him, it's not like Grimmjow is going to go Pantera and OHKO Toguro. Even if Toguro could go to 120% without dying he'd still lose but it'd be so much more even.

[Cooli]

If Grimmjow transformed then he would win
but he would sustain a few injuries during the fight

[BRANCHEAD33]

Toguro would rip grimboy a new asshole

[unlinkedthunder]

The matchup would most likely go in Grimmjow's favor but he'd have to go all out to defeat Toguro.

[jiraiya 58]

toguro killed someone with the flick of the finger and survived multan lava (my grammer stinks) not even in his full power though grimmjow is fast he isnt as strong.

[Hamaru]

lol, GJ would win this thing. He and Ichigo did major damage without much effort.

[Dark Evangel]

Grimmjow should spam Cero.

[The Faint Smile]

Toguro would kill him by looking at him.
Toguro would rip grimboy a new asshole
toguro killed someone with the flick of the finger and survived multan lava (my grammer stinks) not even in his full power though grimmjow is fast he isnt as strong.
lol, GJ would win this thing. He and Ichigo did major damage without much effort.
Grimmjow should spam Cero.

Stunning arguments from all sides...

Lock this bullshit

[MdB]

Togura withstanded Yuseke's (or whatever his name is) last Spirit Gun, the one that was large enough in size to destroy a friggin' mountain. Grimmjaw isn't going to do shit against Toguru.

[Hamaru]

Taguro was strong, but all the people that he killed with ease were nobodys. His fight with Yusuke didn't show anything that would put GJ down.

[Tash]

Well from what I see Toguro speedblitzes this pretty handily.`Even if you do dismiss the hundred punches comment as hyperbole, Yusuke was bullet-timing early in the manga.

[Keollyn]

Yusuke never bullet-timed in the series.

[Hamaru]

Well from what I see Toguro speedblitzes this pretty handily.`Even if you do dismiss the hundred punches comment as hyperbole, Yusuke was bullet-timing early in the manga.

And Bankai Ichigo blocked millions of blades with his sword, yet GJ was the faster of the 2.

[Tash]

Yusuke never bullet-timed in the series.

There was a bullet-timing moment early in the series with Kuwabara and Yusuke during the arc Hiei's sister first appeared in.

@Hamaru: And zero evidence of how fast those blades were moving.

[Keollyn]

Trust me, that wasn't a bullet-timing feat.

[Tash]

Why not?:huh

[BRANCHEAD33]

Trust me, that wasn't a bullet-timing feat.

Maybe that was not the best example, yusuke blocked all of the finger flip bullets with his hands(which all had the force of bullets)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFfUp-DsSTI

Watch this and see if this does not convince you of toguro's victory

[Hamaru]

There was a bullet-timing moment early in the series with Kuwabara and Yusuke during the arc Hiei's sister first appeared in.

@Hamaru: And zero evidence of how fast those blades were moving.

I know that blocking millions of blades is harder then it is to time a bullet.

[Tash]

That would depend entirely on how fast those blades are moving.

[Hamaru]

That would depend entirely on how fast those blades are moving.

Even at a 4th of a bullets speed, when you have millions of anything coming from all around you fighting a bullet timer wont be hard.....Captain America could time bullets.

[Tash]

Even at a 4th of a bullets speed, when you have millions of anything coming from all around you fighting a bullet timer wont be hard.....Captain America could time bullets.

Is that so? And what proves they move at even a fourth of a bullets speed? The word you're looking for would be "dodge" by the way.

[Hamaru]

Is that so? And what proves they move at even a fourth of a bullets speed? The word you're looking for would be "dodge" by the way.

The exact speed of the blades are hard to tell, however the size alone would make it hard to block.

[HyperKnuckles22]

lets see, whe toguro went 100% he killed demons with his aura, and went he fought genkai, he could punch craters. grimmjow isnt even in toguros league.

[MdB]

Ichigo didn't block every individual blade particle. He deflected clumbs of them.

[Blizzard chain]

That would depend entirely on how fast those blades are moving.

They were moving fast enough to corner bankai ichigo

[Grandmaster Kane]

They were moving fast enough to corner bankai ichigo

Who at the time was still playing around

[Hamaru]

Ichigo didn't block every individual blade particle. He deflected clumbs of them.

But he did make sure no blades got past.....not even one.

[unlinkedthunder]

That's an impressive feat in itself.

[MdB]

But he did make sure no blades got past.....not even one.

And he still deflected clumbs of them.

[Tash]

They were moving fast enough to corner bankai ichigo
So we know they are faster than bankai Ichigo, who has what feat that makes him a bullet-timer?
The exact speed of the blades are hard to tell, however the size alone would make it hard to block.

Not if they were moving relatively slow.

[Hamaru]

And he still deflected clumbs of them.

Not the way you make it seem. A sword can't toss away big clumbs of razors or rose peddles. He may smack away 10-100 with each swing or so but his sword was pretty thin. Either way it would take allot of skill and speed not to let one get pass.

[Ax_]

So we know they are faster than bankai Ichigo, who has what feat that makes him a bullet-timer?


The fact that, when he had Bankai, he was actually speedblitzing Byakuya at the start, who had his speed calculated to something that moved faster than bullets, iirc.

Anyone have the speed calculations of Bleach characters?
I thought it was here in the OBD somewhere.

[Tash]

Those calcs were debunked.

[Fleecy]

I hate Toguro and like Grimmjow, but please. Spirit Gun > Cero. Toguro survived a mega shot Spirit Gun without being affected (well, except for the last one of course). How will he be overcome with that? His shoulder was blasted off and repaired itself, so I don't see how a sword would do much either. As for speed, I'm willing to say that Toguro is as fast as Grimmjow (or maybe a few paces slower), but in terms of power and strength, he definitely has the upper hand. If Grimmjow even gets close to him (which I'm sure he has to; Cero will be little help as far as Toguro's messed up body's concerned), he's toast.

[Zero Requiem]

My boy grim.

[Sōsuke Aizen]

toguro could take this.

[Seyta]

I say Toguro takes this.....

he took Yusuke's first spirit gun head on, and was blasted a few hundred meters out of the arena, and got up without any trouble....

The Spirit gun pretty much outclasses Ceros....

[~Avant~]

What is it with people resurrecting my old threads lately

[Michael Myers]

Because Toguro is the shit.

[Crimson King]

You must make good threads.

[Aokiji]

If Grimmjow is able to win through flying and cero spam, than he will.

[Michael Myers]

If Grimmjow is able to win through flying and cero spam, than he will.

:bang :grimmy