Maximus Decimus Meridius VS Leonidus

[Hiruko]

So, the guy from Gladiator vs the guy from 300. Lets see how many posts before we get "that phrase". XD

EDIT- Movie versions of themselves. Though im not sure if Maximus was real or not :s

EDIT-
3 rounds.
Round one - The two battle in their standard armour and using their normal weaponry.
Round two - The two battle with the same armour and weapons.
Round three - Each man gets 20 fodder soldiers, and everyone has the same armour and weapons.

[Spy_Smasher]

Maximus was certainly not real. I'm inclined to vote for him because he was a gladiator, with particular and specialized training in single combat. He also wore armor, which is a big plus. Presumably, his weapons were superior as well, though this cannot be gleaned specifically from the movies. Perhaps movie Greeks use iron wepaons. Who knows?

[Banhammer]

greeks at the time used bronze wich sometimes bent against an enemie shield

[Havoc]

Give Leonidus a challenge.

He would not even waste his time.

[Sasori]

This thread has been made before lol

[omg laser pew pew!]

How the hell do you even remember that name?

[RAGING BONER]

in single combat it can go either way...on the field of Battle the Spartans can't hope to match the superiority of the Legionary cohorts of Rome.

[thegoodjae]

Maximus most likely. He killed a lion I think. Leonidus might take it though. He is better with a bunch of teammates though.

[Sylar]

Maximus will get glory.

Spartan glory, that is. :wink

[thegoodjae]

Leonidus with 20 of his men would rape Maximus if he had a 1000 of his men.

[Darklyre]

Everything that Maximus has done, Leonidas has done before him.

And better.

[TWF]

Greeks < Romans.

[Hiruko]

This thread has been made before lol

So sorry, Sasori.

(see what I did there? XD)

[Cipher]

Romans > Greeks

Better weapons, and Maximus actually wore armor, unlike the movie Spartans (lol, who goes to battle in a helmet and a loincloth?).

[TWF]

Sassanid Persians > Pax Romana > Parthians > Classical Rome > Greeks.

[Sasori]

So sorry, Sasori.

(see what I did there? XD)Alliteration and double "sorry" lol

[RAGING BONER]

Sassanid Persians > Pax Romana > Parthians > Classical Rome > Greeks.

yeah but the Sassanids were really only better because by the time they came around the roman empire had already fractured in two and the Huns were kicking ass and taking names all over europe.

[TWF]

The Sassanids were besieged by the White Huns for over 200 years. They took the brunt of the Ephalites attacks and raids, not the Byzantines.

[RAGING BONER]

meh...I still say post Marian reform Roman Legions were superior to the later armies of Constantine. The comitatense were mostly weak moraled foreigners, compared to the superior italian infantry of the Legionary cohorts. Any victory the parthians may have had against those Legions was due more to poor leadership than an actual superiority of troops (who the fuck fights horse archers with infantry anyway?)

If the Huns or Sassanids or anyone else in the ancient world had faced the quality of soldiers that Julius Ceasar had for example (with adequate leadership), they would have been crushed.

I see it as:

Persians (Seleucids and the like) > Classical romans

Post Marian reforms Roman Legions > ALL

Post Constantine reforms = < than the new rising powers in europe and persia

[Spy_Smasher]

Sassanid Persians > Pax Romana > Parthians > Classical Rome > Greeks.It's a timeline! :amuse

[TWF]

Tell that to Shapur when he defeated a numerically supeior Roman Legionaries and took the Valderian as his bitch and had him flayed alive.

[Flamefang]

By the simple logic that lance/spear > sword gives leonadis a huge advantage. He doesn't even need the strength advantage. The spear is the perfect counter for the sword, because it is focused on fast and deadly stabs. The gladius is focused around slashing. With just this, Leonadis wins. When you add the strength advantage its overkill. And this is Leonadis, he can just K.O Maximus by kicking him in a hole. And Romans are a cheap ripoff the Greeks anyway

[Darklyre]

Lances and spears aren't better than swords unless you use them in sweeping motions, in a one on one fight. While keeping the enemy at range with a spear works while in phalanx formation, one on one means that you'd need to guard against flanking attacks. Getting in close means the range advantage of the spear turns into the disadvantage of no short-range ability. Spears back then were simple pointed sticks, basically. They lacked the cutting edges of a polearm, meaning even sweeping attacks are pretty much useless.

That said, Leonidas is epic and wins.

[Flamefang]

You push the spear back to decrease the length, not a huge problem. And i don't see Maximus getting up close. He isn't speed blitzing anyone, the spear is much faster in attacking, and retracting shouldn't be hard for any trained spartan. And don't forget, this isn't simply a spear, this is a spear AND a shield. A spear and shield combo is deadly in any situation/formation/number. Also, a gladius is extremely ineffective at any range combat. The length of the blade allows for only very close up battles. It also decreases the strength because it decreases the amount of force that could build up in a swing. Don't forget, this is Leonadis, he can get a headshot with a spear

[Blix]

Maximus wins for actually wearing armor.

[Flamefang]

Maximus wins for actually wearing armor.

That amour would slow him down. The most important thing for him in this fight is speed. And he doesn't have enough. Leonadis just jabs his face/chest/shoulders

[Darklyre]

You push the spear back to decrease the length, not a huge problem. And i don't see Maximus getting up close. He isn't speed blitzing anyone, the spear is much faster in attacking, and retracting shouldn't be hard for any trained spartan. And don't forget, this isn't simply a spear, this is a spear AND a shield. A spear and shield combo is deadly in any situation/formation/number. Also, a gladius is extremely ineffective at any range combat. The length of the blade allows for only very close up battles. It also decreases the strength because it decreases the amount of force that could build up in a swing. Don't forget, this is Leonadis, he can get a headshot with a spear

Pushing the spear back means you lose hand balance. Try swinging a baseball bat, except most of the weight is under your fist, instead of over it.

Second, spears are SLOWER for attacking. Basic physics, really. It's longer, meaning the weight on the end of it is magnified. Sword vs. spear in close combat means that the spear is at a major disadvantage in reaction times.

Third, a spear and shield is only useful in group combat, not solo. With two hands on a spear you can at least ward off attacks by swinging it. Only one hand, though, and you're limited to thrusting, which can easily be parried with a single swipe. Unlike swords, the length of the spear means that after a parried strike, it can't retract or swing back in time to help against the sword's counterattack.

Fourth, the spear that Leonidas used was a thrusting spear, not a polearm. There's no swinging to be had here. He's limited to thrusting and throwing, both of which are blockable with a sword alone, even more so with a shield.

Fifth, the armor that Maximus wears is iron. I'd be highly surprised if bronze could even get through that without blunting the tip to an unusable state.

Sixth, speed is not the end-all, be-all of a fight. Unlike anime, unarmored folks do not move at twice the speed and reaction time of an armored opponent (unless they're packing plate mail, in which case the unarmored guy better be damn accurate to even get through that).

[Flamefang]

Pushing the spear back means you lose hand balance. Try swinging a baseball bat, except most of the weight is under your fist, instead of over it.

Second, spears are SLOWER for attacking. Basic physics, really. It's longer, meaning the weight on the end of it is magnified. Sword vs. spear in close combat means that the spear is at a major disadvantage in reaction times.

Third, a spear and shield is only useful in group combat, not solo. With two hands on a spear you can at least ward off attacks by swinging it. Only one hand, though, and you're limited to thrusting, which can easily be parried with a single swipe. Unlike swords, the length of the spear means that after a parried strike, it can't retract or swing back in time to help against the sword's counterattack.

Fourth, the spear that Leonidas used was a thrusting spear, not a polearm. There's no swinging to be had here. He's limited to thrusting and throwing, both of which are blockable with a sword alone, even more so with a shield.

Fifth, the armor that Maximus wears is iron. I'd be highly surprised if bronze could even get through that without blunting the tip to an unusable state.

Sixth, speed is not the end-all, be-all of a fight. Unlike anime, unarmored folks do not move at twice the speed and reaction time of an armored opponent (unless they're packing plate mail, in which case the unarmored guy better be damn accurate to even get through that).

One
That may be, but to a trained warrior who mastered the art of spear combat, tasks like that are simplicity itself.

Two
Wrong. A spear travels faster than a sword if properly propelled froward. The strength and length of the spear build force. Only the tip of the spear encounters air resistance with a proper thrust. The tip is also narrower than the blade of a sword. Thus, the spear has much less air resistance and power meaning much faster jabs.

Three
I believe you are thinking of the wrong spear and shield. The shield the Spartans used could be strapped on to one arm, meaning you could still use that arm. It is also lighter because it is made out of bronze. The spears are also of the earlier Greece, so they are much shorter, barely more than human height. Again, to a skilled warrior wielding a shield and spear shouldn't be too much.

Four
It is far harder to block a spear thrust at full power than you think. Have you ever had the experience? There is no actual way of "blocking", you can however redirect the spear's path, but to do that against a trained soldier, and with spear at full thrust and power would be insanely hard. The best move in this situation would be to somehow dodge the spear. But i doubt Maximus has the reaction time and speed to do that, especially if the spear thruster is easily the best spear fighter of his time.

Five
The average legionnaire armor consists of a number of iron plates linked together. This means that it would be easy to kill Maximus. All Leonadis has to do is aim for the joints of the plates, the face which is completely unprotected, the parts that are not covered by armor, or the arms which are very unprotected. With sheer power and speed of his thrusts, getting past the armor would not be hard.

Six
Really? In a one on one fight, speed IS the most important. Anime, manga may use this is well, but it is because logically in a one on one fight, with any kind of sharp/dangerous object/weapon the person who lands the first good hit wins/has a huge advantage. Like i said, all leonadis has to do is aim for the arm to disable it. Roman Legionnaire armor highly lacks arm/leg protection. Why? For two reasons. One, is because making a full body of armor would be incredibly expensive. In the ancient times, the principle of the army was to throw wave after wave of expendable soldiers at each other until victory. This perhaps is a case where speed is not as needed. The second reason is, because the armor would be INCREDIBLY heavy. I mean cmon. What the hell do you think this is? Its a lot of iron plates being placed on your body. In that kind of armor, running would be not easy, evading would be extremely hard. Why is this not a problem? Remember, expendable soldiers. The military doesn't give a shit if a few guys died. Back then people not dying would be impossible. In this armor Maximus' movements are already heavily restricted. This is not anime, this is life. Wear 50 kilograms (at least) of iron on your body, and guess what? You move slower. Legionnaire armor is very similar to plate mail, except it consists of more plates. And if you are facing a guy in full plate, the fight is easy, just run and throw rocks/other stuff at him untill he gets tired

[Superrazien]

The spears they had back then were very simple, just a stick with some bronze at the end. Maximus could just cut the spear and its useless, or the spear will just break on impact from Maximus armor assuming he swings it.

Lets say Leonidas doesn't have the spear, I still give this to Maximus, Leonidas is sick with his sword, but lets face it if I had a sword like that and I was cutting through Persian armor and Shields which were like wicker I would look pretty bad ass to. Maximus fought people with better weapons and armor than him, and killed them with ease, he then took on a Legionnaire while getting attacked by tigers, and then with a massive stab wound in his back he took on the Emperor himself and won. Face it Leonidas was brave, badass, awsome leader, and great fighter, but his feats fail incomparison to Maximus.

[Metric]

Just to point out the the Roman Gladius was designed for stabbing, not slashing.

[Flamefang]

The spears they had back then were very simple, just a stick with some bronze at the end. Maximus could just cut the spear and its useless, or the spear will just break on impact from Maximus armor assuming he swings it.

Lets say Leonidas doesn't have the spear, I still give this to Maximus, Leonidas is sick with his sword, but lets face it if I had a sword like that and I was cutting through Persian armor and Shields which were like wicker I would look pretty bad ass to. Maximus fought people with better weapons and armor than him, and killed them with ease, he then took on a Legionnaire while getting attacked by tigers, and then with a massive stab wound in his back he took on the Emperor himself and won. Face it Leonidas was brave, badass, awsome leader, and great fighter, but his feats fail incomparison to Maximus.

Lol. Are you on crack? Gladiators = shit ass armor. Also, gladiators =/= leet swordsmanship. Do you know what a gladiator was? A gladiator is a slave who was sold to the arena. Do you know where slaves come from? Slaves come from citizens in heavy dept, or prisoners from war. Since the legion mainly fought untrained barbarians they obviously had experience and equipment advantages. The barbarian's best friend is his muscles. So gladiators were not good at all in combat. Second, the armor differents was not huge. Most gladiator battles had around even equipment to ensure an interesting fight. That being said, a Retiarii would not be as well armored as a Hoplomachi, but a Retiarii received a deadly combo of trident and metal net. And remember, Maximus was a general in the legion, his training, experience, and skill surpassed that of a legionnaire, and a legionnaire surpasses a barbarian in all those terms. The fight would be unfair for the contestants, since gladiators had very basic training, nothing to compare to a good general. Despite this, Leonadis is totally on top. Better armor and weapons? He was armed with a spear, shield and helmet. The average Persian foot soldier would probably be better armed. Its his skill, experience, reflexes and physical abilities that let him slice through waves of Persians. The spartan training is brutal. Don't even question that. It makes even the roman generals look like fodder. I would not be surprised that one of Leonadis' men could take Maximus if they had their choice of weapons. The fact that the spartants went on with no armor proves that. It proves their strength, superiority and confidence. There would be no reason for Leonadis to swing his spear around, he just aims for the head, arm, shoulder, leg or what ever. And you make the bronze vs iron seem too much. Its like you are comparing diamond with steel. There is a differents in iron and bronze, but it is not insanely huge. It just means that Leonadis would need to take a few more shots in the armor, which he can. Maximnus did not take the gladiators with easy. Especially the lion combo. The emperor? What the fuck are you comparing the emperor for? The emperor was a pathetic little brat, all Leonadis would have to do is pimp smack him in to K.Oness. And Maximus didn't even really win in that fight, he died as the result. Not really a victory. Maximus' feets are totaly dwarfed by Leonadis. Leonadis was fighting at beyond human capabilities. Maximus was simply "good"

[Flamefang]

Just to point out the the Roman Gladius was designed for stabbing, not slashing.

Considering the size, its pretty useless for stabbing unless you like not having and arm. And did you forget that the main and best weapon of the legionnaire was his trusty spear (mind you, it was a more advanced spear, but a spear non the less)? Legionnaires aren't even good in non group combat, since their speed limits them greatly. As a unit, they could protect all sides, as an individual, they were wide open.

[Superrazien]

Lol. Are you on crack? Gladiators = shit ass armor. Also, gladiators =/= leet swordsmanship. Do you know what a gladiator was? A gladiator is a slave who was sold to the arena. Do you know where slaves come from? Slaves come from citizens in heavy dept, or prisoners from war. Since the legion mainly fought untrained barbarians they obviously had experience and equipment advantages. The barbarian's best friend is his muscles. So gladiators were not good at all in combat. Second, the armor differents was not huge. Most gladiator battles had around even equipment to ensure an interesting fight. That being said, a Retiarii would not be as well armored as a Hoplomachi, but a Retiarii received a deadly combo of trident and metal net. And remember, Maximus was a general in the legion, his training, experience, and skill surpassed that of a legionnaire, and a legionnaire surpasses a barbarian in all those terms. The fight would be unfair for the contestants, since gladiators had very basic training, nothing to compare to a good general. Despite this, Leonadis is totally on top. Better armor and weapons? He was armed with a spear, shield and helmet. The average Persian foot soldier would probably be better armed. Its his skill, experience, reflexes and physical abilities that let him slice through waves of Persians. The spartan training is brutal. Don't even question that. It makes even the roman generals look like fodder. I would not be surprised that one of Leonadis' men could take Maximus if they had their choice of weapons. The fact that the spartants went on with no armor proves that. It proves their strength, superiority and confidence. There would be no reason for Leonadis to swing his spear around, he just aims for the head, arm, shoulder, leg or what ever. And you make the bronze vs iron seem too much. Its like you are comparing diamond with steel. There is a differents in iron and bronze, but it is not insanely huge. It just means that Leonadis would need to take a few more shots in the armor, which he can. Maximnus did not take the gladiators with easy. Especially the lion combo. The emperor? What the fuck are you comparing the emperor for? The emperor was a pathetic little brat, all Leonadis would have to do is pimp smack him in to K.Oness. And Maximus didn't even really win in that fight, he died as the result. Not really a victory. Maximus' feets are totaly dwarfed by Leonadis. Leonadis was fighting at beyond human capabilities. Maximus was simply "good"

You say I'm on crack, spout a pretty good argument, then say say things like the average Persian foot solider is better armed, and that Spartans wore no armor, Spartans did infact wear armor. Also when Maximus fought those gladiator battles he didn't have much for armor at all, its not like he was better equipped then them. Hell his first match he had no armor and was linked to someone else. Put it this way, if you go by feats in the movies, Leonidas didn't do much by himself as opposed to Maximus, he had a cool 1 minute solo, that even I could of done back then because the Persian armor sucked so bad. Then he threw a spear at Xerxes and cut him. Other than that he was fighting as a group. Maximus took on 4 or 5 Gladiators at once, all whom at the time had some advantage over him, then he took on a Legionnaire with Tigers attacking him, and killed the emperor while he was half dead ( The emperor was a bitch but he was a pretty decent fighter). Weather or not Leonidas could of done this you could argue, but facts are he didn't do anything close to that. There for feats wise Maximus wins, he has more single combat experience.

[Flamefang]

You say I'm on crack, spout a pretty good argument, then say say things like the average Persian foot solider is better armed, and that Spartans wore no armor, Spartans did infact wear armor. Also when Maximus fought those gladiator battles he didn't have much for armor at all, its not like he was better equipped then them. Hell his first match he had no armor and was linked to someone else. Put it this way, if you go by feats in the movies, Leonidas didn't do much by himself as opposed to Maximus, he had a cool 1 minute solo, that even I could of done back then because the Persian armor sucked so bad. Then he threw a spear at Xerxes and cut him. Other than that he was fighting as a group. Maximus took on 4 or 5 Gladiators at once, all whom at the time had some advantage over him, then he took on a Legionnaire with Tigers attacking him, and killed the emperor while he was half dead ( The emperor was a bitch but he was a pretty decent fighter). Weather or not Leonidas could of done this you could argue, but facts are he didn't do anything close to that. There for feats wise Maximus wins, he has more single combat experience.

In the movie 300, the spartan soldiers wore no armor, some armor > no armor, hence Persians being armed. The weapon strength is equal if not superior to the Spartans, next. Again, some gladiators have superior armor but have inferior weaponry. They were armed around the same level in that fight. Fighting is fighting, solo or not. Judging by his power, speed and experience, he greatly dominates Maximus. Maximus fought 4-5 weak gladiators at once. Leonadis fought, with his 300 men, thousands of opponents 10 000 divided by 300 = 33.3 (all superior armed, thats not even counting the immortals), next. Leonadis shits on a legionnaire and a few tigers. Maximus was not half dead, he was wounded. To what extent is unknown, and the emperor was not a decent fighter. A gladiator could probably beat him. Defeating thousands of men (with group) > defeating a few under trained gladiators. Leonadis is the strongest figure in the spartan army. The spartan army is the most warlike of all the other city capitals' armies. Greek fought amongst themselves constantly. Need i say more?

[Superrazien]

In the movie 300, the spartan soldiers wore no armor, some armor > no armor, hence Persians being armed. The weapon strength is equal if not superior to the Spartans, next. Again, some gladiators have superior armor but have inferior weaponry. They were armed around the same level in that fight. Fighting is fighting, solo or not. Judging by his power, speed and experience, he greatly dominates Maximus. Maximus fought 4-5 weak gladiators at once. Leonadis fought, with his 300 men, thousands of opponents 10 000 divided by 300 = 33.3 (all superior armed, thats not even counting the immortals), next. Leonadis shits on a legionnaire and a few tigers. Maximus was not half dead, he was wounded. To what extent is unknown, and the emperor was not a decent fighter. A gladiator could probably beat him. Defeating thousands of men (with group) > defeating a few under trained gladiators. Leonadis is the strongest figure in the spartan army. The spartan army is the most warlike of all the other city capitals' armies. Greek fought amongst themselves constantly. Need i say more?

The Persians armor sucked though, the might as well have wore no armor. Even there arrows sucked, the Spartans were able to hold of the Persians for 3 reasons, 1. There battlefield, 2. Better Weaponry, 3. Better fighters ( But it doesn't matter how good of a fighter you are if they were armed the same as the Persians the battle would not have lasted long). Anyways I have not seen Gladiator in a while so I watched it to brush up, while the people Maximus fights doesn't really have a big armor advantage they seem to have an advantage in weapons, also all the battles he fought had the odds stacked against him. Also you can't go saying that each Spartan killed 33 men, thats stupid, it obvious some men killed more than others, some probably didn't even really fight, and again killing men in a battle is much different than 1 on 1. Leonidas had a 1 on 1 fight with the creepy dude and he did decent but for the most part he would of died if the dude who played Faramir ( forgot his name in 300) didn't save him, and if the creepy dude never dropped his sword.

How can you say Maximus was not half dead? He died from that wound. The Emperor was a decent fighter, and after re watching it, his swordsman skills seem better than Leonidas ( Don't go flipping out not saying he would kill him), but Leonidas only hacks and slashes with his sword. I couldn't find straight clips from the movie this is the closest to show Maximus stuff to remind you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-5g0FfPdHA

Also I think one of the only reasons people are picking Leonidas is because the Spartan fighting style for that movie was really flashy and cool looking. Everyone knows that a Roman> Spartan.

[auron55]

greeks at the time used bronze wich sometimes bent against an enemie shield

Bronze bends against a chunk a pork, as proven by discovery channel.

[TWF]

Shapur the Great rapes both of them.

[Metric]

Considering the size, its pretty useless for stabbing unless you like not having and arm. And did you forget that the main and best weapon of the legionnaire was his trusty spear (mind you, it was a more advanced spear, but a spear non the less)? Legionnaires aren't even good in non group combat, since their speed limits them greatly. As a unit, they could protect all sides, as an individual, they were wide open.

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/mil_roman_soldier_sword.htm

"When using the gladius, the legionaries did not hack at the opponent as this would have made the soldier vulnerable to attack on the exposed parts of his body. Instead he was trained to stab at the enemy in a very fast back and forth motion. This was most effective as it meant a much faster rate of attack, probably as much as four stabs per second, as opposed to the one slice every two seconds if the gladius was used in a swinging motion."

Its used for stabbing. The main weapon used by Roman legionaries was their sword, since they threw their spear at the beginning of battle.