Which universes can beat Suikoden? [Archive]

EvilMoogle

09-12-2007, 08:34 AM

If Suikodenverse is in character lots of universes could.

Bleach and One Piece should be able to fairly easily. Naruto could do well against individuals, but would likely have trouble with the numbers Suikoden can put down (I don't see ninja's fighting armies of tens of thousands very easily).

With the exception of Luc (who was really a major exception), the antagonists of Suikoden were never anything bigger than a nation level threat.

Hmm, kinda loony to say in the Battledome, but I think the Romance-of-Three-Kingdoms-verse would be a good match for them. Individually weaker, but even greater numbers.

Out of character whoever has the Rune of Life and Death or whatever it's real name is will be about unstoppable. Speed being the same "instant death" is a tough attack to beat.

Wiser Guy

09-12-2007, 09:27 AM

I'm gonna be bold and say that the Bastardverse takes this.

Enclave

09-12-2007, 12:31 PM

The thing is that the Suikoverse is not all that powerful with the exception of bearers of the True Runes. This is pretty tough to decide on.

DarkLordDragon

09-12-2007, 05:33 PM

No, Suikoden's omnipotent has not made an appearance, so no need to worry about that.

I'm in the same boat. I know very little on SS.

Alright then if we are counting the whole universe it means the Suikoden’s universe is up against the following:

Gods (Gaia, Uranus, Pontos, Abel, Eris, Odin and Lucifer of the bible, Horos…etc)

Olympians: (Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Apollo…etc)

12 Titans (Cronos, Hyperion, Iapetus…etc)

Titan Soldiers (People who poses cosmo)

88 Current Athena’s Saints (Including Gold Saints, Legendary Silver Saints, Silver Saints, Bronze Saints, Unkown Saints) + Saint in trainees and foot soldiers

Several hundreds of Athena’s Saints in the previous holy wars including (Dozens of Ancient Gold Saints, Silver Saints…etc)

Black Saints (Huge number of saints who are on the level of Athena’s Bronze Saints + Fallen Saints)

Others (Steel Saints, Ghost Saints, Anime Only Saints, Warriors of the Ice…etc)

Hades’ 108 Specters + Hades Foot Soldiers

Poseidon’s Marines and ancients Marine Generals (Their powers are from weak Gold Saints to strong) + Normal Poseidon Soldiers

Asgard Warriors (Their power range from High Level Silver Saints to high level Gold Saints)

Angels + Fallen Angels (Hell’s Angels)

Giants (Typhoon and the rest of the Giants)

Cyclops

Monsters (Salamander, Dragons, Hydra…etc)

Mankind who poses the 7th sense before the mythological times (That would most likely be several thousands and more)

In the Saint Seiya Universe it was Cronos who triggered the Big Bang and created the universe.

If it’s the whole universe so most likely be more than thousands who poses the 7th sense, and putting a single 7th sense against a group of Naruto or One Piece could be troublesome for them.

Among the Universe there are people who are fully immortal even if they turned to dust they can come back. There are those who can twist time/space and rewrite history. I am sure Suikoden also have the same level but I just wanted to give you a brief idea on the characters involved when it comes to the Saint Seiya Universe battle.

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 05:55 PM

Marvel and DC, did I do it right Keollyn? :)

:nod

If Suikodenverse is in character lots of universes could.

Which would make alot of verses fighting them in character too.

Bleach and One Piece should be able to fairly easily. Naruto could do well against individuals, but would likely have trouble with the numbers Suikoden can put down (I don't see ninja's fighting armies of tens of thousands very easily).

How does Bleach beat Suikoden period? Remember, this is same speed. Bleach does not have the firepower, versatility nor the strategy to compete. In character or not.

One Piece would depend if you think the True elemental runes can fuck up the Logias. Otherwise, what would One Piece do to the Suikodenverse? Tir isn't the only person they'd have to worry about.

With the exception of Luc (who was really a major exception), the antagonists of Suikoden were never anything bigger than a nation level threat.

And is this a problem?

Hmm, kinda loony to say in the Battledome, but I think the Romance-of-Three-Kingdoms-verse would be a good match for them. Individually weaker, but even greater numbers.

Details on why? Would be interesting to know.

Out of character whoever has the Rune of Life and Death or whatever it's real name is will be about unstoppable. Speed being the same "instant death" is a tough attack to beat.

Why is Tir the only person people think is Suikoden's deadliest? There's more heavy hitters than just Tir. Although, mass death would be something bothersome.

I'm gonna be bold and say that the Bastardverse takes this.

No they don't. Not if speed is equal (I agree they have a chance of winning if it weren't)

The thing is that the Suikoverse is not all that powerful with the exception of bearers of the True Runes. This is pretty tough to decide on.

I'd figure you'd say something like this...

EvilMoogle

09-12-2007, 06:22 PM

Which would make alot of verses fighting them in character too.
Yeah, but all the true rune bearers so far have held back quite a bit while fighting (at least the mass destruction ones), so in character hurts Suikoden quite a bit.

How does Bleach beat Suikoden period? Remember, this is same speed. Bleach does not have the firepower, versatility nor the strategy to compete. In character or not.
Speed's the same, but not firepower or defense. The upper tiers of Bleach would wade through anything Suikoden has to offer with a smile on their face.

One Piece would depend if you think the True elemental runes can fuck up the Logias. Otherwise, what would One Piece do to the Suikodenverse? Tir isn't the only person they'd have to worry about.
Again, many individuals in the mid and upper tiers of One Piece could wipe out all but 3-4 people introduced to date without getting hurt just because the firepower of Suikoden isn't there.

And is this a problem?
It's not, really. Except anyone that's a "world level" threat is by default more powerful than them. At least in raw power.

Details on why? Would be interesting to know.
Game's based in historical China, generals and armies. Tactics should be around the same level. RoTK would have an edge in numbers, but without magic a distinct disadvantage in firepower. I think they could put up a good fight though.

But I've never seen a RoTK thread in the Battledome, so it seems kinda funky ;)

Why is Tir the only person people think is Suikoden's deadliest? There's more heavy hitters than just Tir. Although, mass death would be something bothersome.

Well, Tir (or Ted) can point at you and say "die". That's a rather big problem for universes that rely on small numbers of very powerful types.

True Fire or Punishment or Sun may have mass destruction powers, but there are characters that would shrug off a lot of those attacks. It's a harder argument to say you shrug off "absolute power of life and death".

Though in character Tir wouldn't just wipe out the opposition.

DarkLordDragon

09-12-2007, 06:27 PM

Alright, I'm gonna hold onto this post for future references (very helpful), but I'm just going to be out with it.

Suikoden doesn't have a chance. Suikoden is versatile, but Saint Seiya has too many actual gods.

Hmmm you know I was just checking Wikipedia on Suikoden's characters and I have to admit that they have alot of characters in their universe. Hmmm in fact Saint Seiya cast also has variety of skills and techniques especially the Saints & Specters. Think of any type of skills and you will find it there

Time Stop, Travel, Warping Dimension/Reality, Increasing power & Speed, attacks explodes from inside, direct hits, magics, illusions...etc and they have this thing you know: "You cannot touch me unless you have" x element from the universe itself like (Athena Exclamation or 8th sense...etc)

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 06:33 PM

Yeah, but all the true rune bearers so far have held back quite a bit while fighting (at least the mass destruction ones), so in character hurts Suikoden quite a bit.

And that means that people who don't have qualms about mass death or destruction are hindered?

And why is in character being assumed anyway?

Speed's the same, but not firepower or defense. The upper tiers of Bleach would wade through anything Suikoden has to offer with a smile on their face.

I'm sure you meant Suikoden when you said firepower... cause I don't know how Bleach got more firepower than Suikoden...

Bleach characters can't defend against mountain busters and "I can punch 500 meters holes in the ground without trying" mages, so you can't be saying Bleach got the defense.

And I like to see them wade through Luc, Sarah and Yuber.

Again, many individuals in the mid and upper tiers of One Piece could wipe out all but 3-4 people introduced to date without getting hurt just because the firepower of Suikoden isn't there.

I'm really not sure we've played the same series. 3-4 people?

It's not, really. Except anyone that's a "world level" threat is by default more powerful than them. At least in raw power.

Because a world level threat can avoid instant incineration?

If you think about it, any bloodlusted TR user CAN be a world-level threat. It's just how you define world level threat that'll make that true or not.

Game's based in historical China, generals and armies. Tactics should be around the same level. RoTK would have an edge in numbers, but without magic a distinct disadvantage in firepower. I think they could put up a good fight though.

What's there number game like? Because you might be forgetting Windy, Yuber and Sarah.

Well, Tir (or Ted) can point at you and say "die". That's a rather big problem for universes that rely on small numbers of very powerful types.

Yeah, I know. Still not the only heavy hitters.

True Fire or Punishment or Sun may have mass destruction powers, but there are characters that would shrug off a lot of those attacks. It's a harder argument to say you shrug off "absolute power of life and death".

From the list of verses you mention, who's shrugging of those runes?

Though in character Tir wouldn't just wipe out the opposition.

Yet I'm wondering why you're mentioning in character anyway.

Enclave

09-12-2007, 06:39 PM

All True Runes are capable of mass destruction. What we have seen of them in the game is only a fraction of their real potential.

A great example is Crowley. The guy is trying to achieve the power of a True Rune bearer without actually having a True Rune, in his battle against Mazus they ended up leveling a mountain. Now remember, they did this while being at a lower level of power than one who bears a True Rune. Not to mention of course the fact that Crowley has died before and then brought himself back to life.

Now admittedly he is the extreme example of what Suikoden characters are capable of but really do not discount the power of Crowley and bearers of True Runes.

EvilMoogle

09-12-2007, 07:46 PM

As to most of your other comments, I distinctly said "if it's in character" in my first post. And went on to say how it would be quite different if it's not in character.

What's there number game like? Because you might be forgetting Windy, Yuber and Sarah.
Varies from game to game, in VII (the most recent one that I've played much) each general could control up to 20,000 soldiers in battle, and there are about 540 different generals, so in theory they could field 10,800,000 trained warriors of various types.

But as I said, there's very little magic in the RoTK world (a few magic swords/weapons and a couple magic "spirits", the "spirits" could match the true runes in power, but can't be used nearly as much).

I think it'd be an interesting (but very very bloody) fight, but one Suikoden would probably ultimately win.

Purgatory

09-12-2007, 07:55 PM

Middle-high tier DMCverse.

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 07:58 PM

As to most of your other comments, I distinctly said "if it's in character" in my first post. And went on to say how it would be quite different if it's not in character.

And my comments acknowledge this. I'm just not seeing how Bleach "wades through" Suikoden characters when Bleach is in character to. I kinda recall a certain small group of people penetrating Soul Society without a strategy in the world behind them.

Varies from game to game, in VII (the most recent one that I've played much) each general could control up to 20,000 soldiers in battle, and there are about 540 different generals, so in theory they could field 10,800,000 trained warriors of various types.

They likely have more, as I don't really feel like trying to add everything together, but when you have a group of people who can summon (one of them can bring out 80k alone), and a dragon army... the numbers start to add up fast.

But as I said, there's very little magic in the RoTK world (a few magic swords/weapons and a couple magic "spirits", the "spirits" could match the true runes in power, but can't be used nearly as much).

Needs an explanation.

I think it'd be an interesting (but very very bloody) fight, but one Suikoden would probably ultimately win.

I suppose. Though I know nothing about the series.

Sylar

09-12-2007, 08:05 PM

FMAverse.

City busters FTW.

Enclave

09-12-2007, 08:07 PM

But as I said, there's very little magic in the RoTK world (a few magic swords/weapons and a couple magic "spirits", the "spirits" could match the true runes in power, but can't be used nearly as much).

Would the destruction of a spirit cause at the bare minimum the destruction of a continent and upset the very balance of chaos and order? Because that is what would happen if a True Rune gets destroyed.

Purgatory

09-12-2007, 08:07 PM

I'm not seeing how. Care to explain?

Firstly, you have your Mundus, the Prince of Darkness. And no, don't you pull that "but he got killed by Dante lolz" shit on me, because Mundus was still able to thrust 3 of those beams through him in his Sparda DT. Then you have...God help me...Arius, and his Embodiment Despaired. Then, of course, Arkham with Sparda's power. Then you have the major + minor bosses, which still hurt like Hell if we take them from Dante Must Die mode, and obviously, the Sparda twins.

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:07 PM

FMAverse.

City busters FTW.

Okay.

Now is there a better reason as to why they win?

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:09 PM

Firstly, you have your Mundus, the Prince of Darkness. And no, don't you pull that "but he got killed by Dante lolz" shit on me

Lol damn! :amuse

because Mundus was still able to thrust 3 of those beams through him in his Sparda DT. Then you have...God help me...Arius, and his Embodiment Despaired. Then, of course, Arkham with Sparda's power. Then you have the major + minor bosses, which still hurt like Hell if we take them from Dante Must Die mode, and obviously, the Sparda twins.

Okay, but can you tell me HOW they win. I know what the DMCverse has in their corner. I'm a fan of the series (not so much DMC2)

Sylar

09-12-2007, 08:14 PM

Okay.

Now is there a better reason as to why they win?

Because Father (the main villain) is mini reality warper.

Because Pride is capable of slaughtering an army from dozens of miles away.

Because Kimbley, Mustang, Armstrong, and Grand with a PS can bust cities by themselves.

Should I continue?

Enclave

09-12-2007, 08:14 PM

FMAverse.

City busters FTW.

I didn't see this.

City busters you say? The Fire Champion lost control of his Rune and wiped out a rather significant portion of the Grasslands (a rather HUGE country) and in the process killed both his own army and the opposing army all in one fell swoop.

This is the power of the True Runes. Not to mention of course there are runes which while lesser than the True Runes are themselves incredibly potent and do approach the power of a true rune (such as the Dawn Rune, Bright Shield Rune, Rune of Twilight, Black Sword Rune)

Country busters > City busters.

Purgatory

09-12-2007, 08:17 PM

Okay, but can you tell me HOW they win. I know what the DMCverse has in their corner. I'm a fan of the series (not so much DMC2)

What DMC feats do you want to go by first? 1, 2, or 3? Because even with my hatred for 2, my knowledge is vast in this area, and I have the games with the booklets to back me up.

So, as Vergil says from the prologue of the special edition:

"It begins..."

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:17 PM

Because Father (the main villain) is mini reality warper.

Because Pride is capable of slaughtering an army from dozens of miles away.

Because Kimbley, Mustang, Armstrong, and Grand with a PS can bust cities by themselves.

Should I continue?

The verse is on the right track. Can you explain this mini reality warping?

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:18 PM

What DMC feats do you want to go by first? 1, 2, or 3? Because even with my hatred for 2, my knowledge is vast in this area, and I have the games with the booklets to back me up.

So, as Vergil says from the prologue of the special edition:

"It begins..."

Well, shouldn't you go by all, since this is a verse versus verse fight.

I didn't see this.

City busters you say? The Fire Champion lost control of his Rune and wiped out a rather significant portion of the Grasslands (a rather HUGE country) and in the process killed both his own army and the opposing army all in one fell swoop.

This is the power of the True Runes. Not to mention of course there are runes which while lesser than the True Runes are themselves incredibly potent and do approach the power of a true rune (such as the Dawn Rune, Bright Shield Rune, Rune of Twilight, Black Sword Rune)

Country busters > City busters.

Don't forget the Rune Cannons. Island busters... and they're not even true runes.

Enclave

09-12-2007, 08:22 PM

Don't forget the Rune Cannons. Island busters... and they're not even true runes.

Only problem though is there isn't too many Rune Cannons left and even fewer Rune Shells and (thankfully) the technology to create those fearsome weapons has been lost.

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:25 PM

Only problem though is there isn't too many Rune Cannons left and even fewer Rune Shells and (thankfully) the technology to create those fearsome weapons has been lost.

Well I did say no restrictions, else alot of characters that have either vanished or died are not usuable.

EvilMoogle

09-12-2007, 08:29 PM

They likely have more, as I don't really feel like trying to add everything together, but when you have a group of people who can summon (one of them can bring out 80k alone), and a dragon army... the numbers start to add up fast.
80k isn't a very big dent out of 10 million ;)

But I'll grant that the individual power of troops favors Suikoden (dragons, dragon horses, rune archers, etc).

Needs an explanation.

There are four "spirits" that can be found that can do fairly powerful magical effects:

Dragon: Hits all opposing units with lightning for major damage. Kills about 50% of the soldiers present as I recall (so in a big battle that might kill 150,000 in one swoop).

Kirin: Returns all friendly soldiers to life and heals all friendly wounded soldiers (conceptually this could raise 300,000 from the dead, and yes that's dead not "knocked out").

Pheonix: Heals all friendly wounded soldiers, damages all enemy soldiers and sets them on fire. (Kills about 10% of the enemy soldiers present and switches the terrain to "fire" which will continue to burn them if they don't move).

Great Roc: Confuses and Stops all enemy soldiers (troops don't move until they recover and won't follow their general's orders until he regains control over them).

In the game, the spirits are hidden and take lots of random coincidences to find, and can only be used once then you have to find them again.

They seem to be on the order of the typical uses of the True Runes in scope, but the True Runes beat them out in functional usability (when playing I've only used a spirit once because they're so @#$@ing hard to get that I don't want to waste them when they're not needed).

Purgatory

09-12-2007, 08:31 PM

Well, shouldn't you go by all, since this is a verse versus verse fight.

I don't want to have to type so much that it cramps my fingers. Go ahead, pick a game, any game. :awesome

Keollyn

09-12-2007, 08:38 PM

80k isn't a very big dent out of 10 million ;)

And hypothetically, she can summon more :nod

That's still only one summoner. There's quite a bit of people who come with the Blue Gate rune already equipped (this is not adding Luc, Sarah, and Yuber... who can bring a lot to the table)

Besides, World of Emptiness demons trump trained soldiers anyday :wink

They seem to be on the order of the typical uses of the True Runes in scope, but the True Runes beat them out in functional usability (when playing I've only used a spirit once because they're so @#$@ing hard to get that I don't want to waste them when they're not needed).

As nice as these abilities are, I don't see how these spirits match the true runes? Gameplay, yes (even exceed), but that's all it appears to be.

What are their traits in the story?

I don't want to have to type so much that it cramps my fingers. Go ahead, pick a game, any game. :awesome

Devil May Cry 4 0.o

Use your favorite.

EvilMoogle

09-12-2007, 08:58 PM

As nice as these abilities are, I don't see how these spirits match the true runes? Gameplay, yes (even exceed), but that's all it appears to be.

What are their traits in the story?

Well to be honest all the game has is gameplay, it's just a strategy game.

In the story they're minor gods I guess? Sometimes if a "blessed" character fights a tiger in a dual if they win one of the spirits will grant him a boon (the ability to summon the spirit once). (I suspect in the Japanese version they use "kami" instead of spirit but I've never played it).

There's a RoTK Anime, but I don't know that the spirits are mentioned at all in it.

Purgatory

09-12-2007, 09:17 PM

Devil May Cry 4 0.o

Use your favorite.

Bah, I hate 4. I hate the PS3.

Alright, I'll start with DMC 3 Dante and Vergil. Both capable of instantaneous teleportation (Dante's level 3 Trickster and Vergil's Dark Slayer Style). Dante is able to use a various amount of his armaments, meaning combinations galore! Although their sword styles and skills are different, the swords themselves are unique. Now, in the gameplay, it CLEARLY states that:

Yamato (Vergil's katana) is a memento from his father Sparda. It is said to cut through anything

Taken right from the information of his weapons.

Both can move freely with Beowulf as if it was lightweight (unfortunately the same can't be said as much for Dante's Ifrit gauntlets). You should know of their techniques since you played the games. Dante also has Quicksilver, which, at best, slows down the stronger enemies as the stop the weaker ones, depending on their strength. With the IT (Instantaneous Teleportation), the Sparda twins can also lock in close by their targets with IT.

Cerberus has an icey armor that takes a few hits to get to their actual skin, as you know. The can swipe with their claws, and with each head, summon debris of ice from the ceiling, hurl big balls of ice, and spewing ice onto the ground that, if touched, freezes whoever is in contact. When enraged, their attack with their "specials" harder and faster.

Agni and Rudra have...well...fire and wind swords. One can use a huge gust of wind, the other can shoot fire from the ground into the target's direction. When either one has both swords, their attacks and specials become more powerful. Combine the gust + fire attack and times it by two.

Nevan has her bats for protection, and can use them as projectiles. Once weakened, she can break herself free from the bats and suck the life out of you (succubus, anyone? :awesome).

Beowulf has monstrous strength, and whenever he's near death, he constantly uses his "feathers" to strike its target, and barely ever misses.

Now, for Dante's Shadow, he could entrap whoever's near him into the arena. Unless they can figure out that light is his weakness, and that he must be near it to become solid and vunerable, he slaughters them.

And, of course, we have Arkham injected with Sparda's power. Arkham can summon appendages of those..."dolphins" and those "eel" things. Although he strikes slowly, it can hurt like Hell if you get hit. With those same arms can he grab whoever's close and literally squeeze them to death.

Now, if you need more proof on Dante and Vergil's abilities and skills, this will make you change your mind:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3T_RdUPNg6k

Sylar

09-12-2007, 09:19 PM

Ok scratch my last couple of posts.

I just read the latest chapter of FMA.

Father wiped out a country BY HIMSELF.

Enclave

09-12-2007, 09:24 PM

Ok scratch my last couple of posts.

I just read the latest chapter of FMA.

Father wiped out a country BY HIMSELF.

Still doesn't match the fact that it has been stated that the destruction of a True Rune would cause at LEAST the destruction of a continent.

vagnard

09-12-2007, 09:28 PM

I won't be cheap....I won't be cheap....I won't be cheap.....hell with it.

Tenchiverse.

DarkLordDragon

09-13-2007, 03:41 AM

Keollyn:

Who does the following

Time-Stop
The previous Incarnation of the Virgo Gold Saint, Asmita. Most likely the current incarnation of Virgo Saint, Shaka. Another saint was Silver Saint who was a master of the Bronze Saint, Retsu. It was seal of time but sadly I don't remember the name of that Silver Saint. If my memories are not betraying me then I believe his name was Noise and finally the God of Time & Space, Cronos.

Twisting Time/Space/Dimension…etc
Gemini Saga and Gemini Kanon are popular for their abilities to twist time and space with their respected techniques (Another Dimension & Golden Triangle). Virgo Shaka changed realities when he changed flames and heats to flowers. The Titans cosmo alone were twisting space and time revivng mythological creatures in the process also. Popular titans who have control over dimensions, space and time are Titan Cronos & Titan Iapetus.

Internal Explodes
As far as I remember some of the Gold Saints; Gemini Saga, Gemini Kanon and Leo Aiolia and Taurus Aldebaran. There are some of the Titans where they pass through armors and skins attacking from inside. Some of the specters are also included in this. However the most popular and most likely the most powerful is Aiolia's ultimate technique. "Photon Burst".

I have a simple question! Can Ted kill anyone by just a thought? Because I don't think he will be able to kill someone like Hades or Thanatos who are the lords of the concept dead/death…etc

Keollyn

09-13-2007, 06:28 PM

Bah, I hate 4. I hate the PS3.

Oh yeah

Alright, I'll start with DMC 3 Dante and Vergil. Both capable of instantaneous teleportation (Dante's level 3 Trickster and Vergil's Dark Slayer Style).

A waste really. See same speed on first post

Yamato (Vergil's katana) is a memento from his father Sparda. It is said to cut through anything

Taken right from the information of his weapons.

Alright. Seems like a fallacy given that it didn't :amuse

Both can move freely with Beowulf as if it was lightweight (unfortunately the same can't be said as much for Dante's Ifrit gauntlets).

This is proving strength, right? Oulan, Rony Bell, and Emily should do the trick if this gets physical (all surprisingly females)

You should know of their techniques since you played the games.

Yep

Dante also has Quicksilver, which, at best, slows down the stronger enemies as the stop the weaker ones, depending on their strength.

A nice ability to have. Can't quite remember time stop being an ability Suikoden has to its name (yet)

With the IT (Instantaneous Teleportation), the Sparda twins can also lock in close by their targets with IT.

Same speed. Sorry.

Cerberus has an icey armor that takes a few hits to get to their actual skin, as you know.

Yep.

The can swipe with their claws, and with each head, summon debris of ice from the ceiling, hurl big balls of ice, and spewing ice onto the ground that, if touched, freezes whoever is in contact. When enraged, their attack with their "specials" harder and faster.

Good matchup would either be the golden wolf, or any of the major dragons (bone dragon, zombie dragon, etc)

Agni and Rudra have...well...fire and wind swords. One can use a huge gust of wind, the other can shoot fire from the ground into the target's direction. When either one has both swords, their attacks and specials become more powerful. Combine the gust + fire attack and times it by two.

How come you didn't just mention them as seperate characters... as DMC would be highly overwhelmed this way.

Nevan has her bats for protection, and can use them as projectiles. Once weakened, she can break herself free from the bats and suck the life out of you (succubus, anyone? :awesome).

I see you did it here.

Beowulf has monstrous strength, and whenever he's near death, he constantly uses his "feathers" to strike its target, and barely ever misses.

Again, you did it here. Beowulf would do well to fight Oulan. One one shots dragons regularly.

Now, for Dante's Shadow, he could entrap whoever's near him into the arena. Unless they can figure out that light is his weakness, and that he must be near it to become solid and vunerable, he slaughters them.

I'm not sure he'll slaughter them. There's a bit of a disadvantage as he's never around with light... Where is he getting this shadow from? He's never showed to travel outside his domain either.

And, of course, we have Arkham injected with Sparda's power. Arkham can summon appendages of those..."dolphins" and those "eel" things. Although he strikes slowly, it can hurt like Hell if you get hit. With those same arms can he grab whoever's close and literally squeeze them to death.

Who is this again?

Now, if you need more proof on Dante and Vergil's abilities and skills, this will make you change your mind:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3T_RdUPNg6k

The number game is the issue. You need to bring in orders, or the Sparda Brothers are going to be overwhelmed.

Keollyn

09-13-2007, 06:34 PM

Ok scratch my last couple of posts.

I just read the latest chapter of FMA.

Father wiped out a country BY HIMSELF.

Alright, but is he FMA's only gun? Country destroying won't guarantee you a win against Suikoverse.

You'd have to overcome people near equal to that level of destruction, people who can instant kill, people who can port you, people who can zombify you (mass zombify too), and all sorts of summon spam.

Purgatory

09-13-2007, 07:26 PM

A waste really. See same speed on first post

Is there really anything faster than instantaneous movement?

Alright. Seems like a fallacy given that it didn't :amuse

It could've been Sparda who said it himself. Don't you remember the first fight? Yamato cut through those statues with no problem.

This is proving strength, right? Oulan, Rony Bell, and Emily should do the trick if this gets physical (all surprisingly females)

But can they inflict punches that causes such force to push things back and even damage one even if they're only nearby.

A nice ability to have. Can't quite remember time stop being an ability Suikoden has to its name (yet)

Of course, Time Bangle from 2 and Quicksilver style could come in handy.

Same speed. Sorry.

Like I saidd, is there REALLY a speed faster than instantaneous movement?

I'm not sure he'll slaughter them. There's a bit of a disadvantage as he's never around with light... Where is he getting this shadow from? He's never showed to travel outside his domain either.

Perhaps there could be some sort of way

Who is this again?

You know...the guy who killed Lady's AKA Mary's mother in order to further his study of the black arts, to become a devil himself.

The number game is the issue. You need to bring in orders, or the Sparda Brothers are going to be overwhelmed.

..Orders?

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 01:06 AM

Is there really anything faster than instantaneous movement?

You know what, nevermind. I kind of forgot that Suikoden has their fare share of teleporters. Wouldn't make a big deal.

It could've been Sparda who said it himself. Don't you remember the first fight? Yamato cut through those statues with no problem.

But that statue wouldn't make it a "cut through anything" sword. Once it failed to cut through Dante sword, it lost that status.

But can they inflict punches that causes such force to push things back and even damage one even if they're only nearby.

Probably. Though shockwaves aren't a necessary indication of speed.

Of course, Time Bangle from 2 and Quicksilver style could come in handy.

It would have too, especially with the uphill battle they're going to be in (more people need to be presented)

Like I saidd, is there REALLY a speed faster than instantaneous movement?

You got my answer.

Perhaps there could be some sort of way

Like?

You know...the guy who killed Lady's AKA Mary's mother in order to further his study of the black arts, to become a devil himself.

I know how he is... I don't recall this form. When did he take this form?

..Orders?

Others.

Purgatory

09-14-2007, 01:26 AM

You know what, nevermind. I kind of forgot that Suikoden has their fare share of teleporters. Wouldn't make a big deal.

Don't forget their insane reaction time

But that statue wouldn't make it a "cut through anything" sword. Once it failed to cut through Dante sword, it lost that status.

If I'm not mistaken, Rebellion could be a memento as well, meaning it would cancel out what I said. But, nonetheless, it is said to cut through anything, but we don't know why it can't cut through Rebellion.

It would have too, especially with the uphill battle they're going to be in (more people need to be presented)

Do you think you know who would only be slowed down by Quicksilver/Time Bangle?

Like?

Just one of those unexplained possibility.

I know how he is... I don't recall this form. When did he take this form?

End of Mission 19, when he started turning into that large blob from the Sparda form. The form that could re-attach its body parts if cut off.

Others.

Still not getting it..

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 01:36 AM

Don't forget their insane reaction time

Which is NOW going against the "same speed" rule.

If I'm not mistaken, Rebellion could be a memento as well, meaning it would cancel out what I said. But, nonetheless, it is said to cut through anything, but we don't know why it can't cut through Rebellion.

But Rebellion is still "anything". There really needs to be more proof before you can use a fallacy of that level.

Do you think you know who would only be slowed down by Quicksilver/Time Bangle?

Alot (if not all) of the True Rune users, most of the high level mages, some of the demons of the WoE, and the various end-game bosses.

End of Mission 19, when he started turning into that large blob from the Sparda form. The form that could re-attach its body parts if cut off.

When Dante and Vergil teamed up?

Still not getting it..

The hero side of Suikoden carry 540 characters alone (this is not counting the fodder army that joins), then a host of other armies, demons and endgame monsters.

You will need to mention more people from the DMCverse, or the numbers game would easily make this one-sided.

Cthulhu-versailles

09-14-2007, 01:41 AM

Tsukihime verse takes Suikoden verse. The Dead Apostles and Highest level magicians are far too much.

TWF

09-14-2007, 01:48 AM

Dark Horse.

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 01:55 AM

Tsukihime verse takes Suikoden verse. The Dead Apostles and Highest level magicians are far too much.

Any reason why?

I'm not that far into Tsukihime.

Tuxx

09-14-2007, 03:18 AM

Tsukihime verse takes Suikoden verse. The Dead Apostles and Highest level magicians are far too much.

Better to use Nasuverse than just Tsukihime. If your just going to use Tsukihime though...

Even with the Dead Apostles, there are to many unknown details about the majority of them. The only ones that we know about at the least are Arc, Merm, Nero, Wallachia, Einnashe, and iffy info on Roa.

Arc... lets say the fight take place on a neutral universe. Since she needs to be powered by Gaia. And we all know she can practically do "anything" she wants with her MP as long as it is within the laws of nature.

Wallachia can't be killed outright. He is a living phenomenon. As long as there are believes in the world about phenomenal stories, fear, and the paranormal, he can always come back no matter what.

But if we use Zelretch at his prime, it could be a one-sided fight. He has unlimited mana due to dimensional/alternative universe manipulations. With the ability to cross the infinite parallel worlds, he can do a lot of things...

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 03:44 AM

Arc... lets say the fight take place on a neutral universe. Since she needs to be powered by Gaia. And we all know she can practically do "anything" she wants with her MP as long as it is within the laws of nature.

Can you explain these "anything" that she's capable of?

Wallachia can't be killed outright. He is a living phenomenon. As long as there are believes in the world about phenomenal stories, fear, and the paranormal, he can always come back no matter what.

Alright. Though the idea of unkillable characters really only work in one-on-one, right?

But if we use Zelretch at his prime, it could be a one-sided fight. He has unlimited mana due to dimensional/alternative universe manipulations. With the ability to cross the infinite parallel worlds, he can do a lot of things...

One-sided for who? And can you explain why?

Tuxx

09-14-2007, 04:33 AM

Can you explain these "anything" that she's capable of?

Anything that is within the bounds of nature, or Gaia. Like when she summons the Crimson Moon 1000 years earlier forcing it to appear or summoning/dropping the sun... on people. :notrust Killing Roa by creating compress vacuum blades around his body with a thought. Bending the natural environment around to her to avoid death from Shiki's Mystic Eye, course Shiki's ME weaken her considerably. (Actually Shiki only cut her...not her dots, she couldn't regenerate, her existence was still in tact, so she regenerated herself on a molecular level.) Her MP is the Millennium castle, which is essentially Gaia. So basically, her only limit is her imagination.

Alright. Though the idea of unkillable characters really only work in one-on-one, right?

I suppose so, but nothing can still kill him. He will eventually win slowly. Also remember he can make turn into them via fears/imagination along with their powers. He was able to use Arc power as Dark Arc... along with Shiki's ME.

One-sided for who? And can you explain why?

For Tsukihime side. We know Zel owned CM, even if it was a cheap shot. We don't know how exactly, but he did stop Crimson Moon crashing the Moon into Gaia. Zel gains unlimited mana by drawing all the mana from the infinite parallel worlds from his other selfs iirc. Plus he made some very powerful and interesting artifacts over the many years. :P

Anyways, even if he is killed, it's possible another version of himself can take over. He could just dimension dump anyone save for the Gate Rune user, by pulling them through with Kaleidoscope. ^^

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 04:51 AM

Anything that is within the bounds of nature, or Gaia. Like when she summons the Crimson Moon 1000 years earlier forcing it to appear or summoning/dropping the sun... on people. :notrust Killing Roa by creating compress vacuum blades around his body with a thought. Bending the natural environment around to her to avoid death from Shiki's Mystic Eye, course Shiki's ME weaken her considerably. Her MP is the Millennium castle, which is essentially Gaia. So basically, her only limit is her imagination.

Not understanding the Crimson Moon thing. I hope it didn't take 1000 years to pull off that feat :P

She seems nice. Though the scope of her powers from what I got here isn't TOO grand in regards to Suikoden.

I suppose so, but nothing can still kill him. He will eventually win slowly. Also remember he can make turn into them via fears/imagination along with their powers. He was able to use Arc power as Dark Arc... along with Shiki's ME.

Not really. Killing =/= unstoppable. You can be put down x number of times even if you can't be killed (Alucard can't be killed by Hulk, but Hulk can constantly put him on his ass)

I'll be quite useless to transform into most people in Suikoden... since they get there powers from outside sources.

For Tsukihime side. We know Zel owned CM, even if it was a cheap shot. We don't know how exactly, but he did stop Crimson Moon crashing the Moon into Gaia. Zel gains unlimited mana by drawing all the mana from the infinite parallel worlds from his other selfs iirc. Plus he made some very powerful and interesting artifacts over the many years. :P

To bad it isn't know how he stopped the moon.

I'm going to need a bit more before I even believe that Zel makes this one-sided.

Anyways, even if he is killed, it's possible another version of himself can take over. He could just dimension dump anyone save for the Gate Rune user, by pulling them through with Kaleidoscope. ^^

Unless he can mass port, it'll prove useless. What would stop Windy from porting them back if he can't?

Hell, even li'l Viki should be able to do that.

Tuxx

09-14-2007, 05:22 AM

I editted one. ><

Not understanding the Crimson Moon thing. I hope it didn't take 1000 years to pull off that feat

Course not. She forced CM to appear. ^^

She seems nice. Though the scope of her powers from what I got here isn't TOO grand in regards to Suikoden.

That's true... on a grand scale. ><

Not really. Killing =/= unstoppable. You can be put down x number of times even if you can't be killed (Alucard can't be killed by Hulk, but Hulk can constantly put him on his ass)

I'll be quite useless to transform into most people in Suikoden... since they get there powers from outside sources.

That's true in a way... I was looking a different perspective, as he could kill them most slowly one by one and stuff.

I suppose they are an external source... hmm, so it's debatable if he could copy duplicate the power. But that doesn't mean he is limited to just creating beings only within the immediate area. He did manifest/created (?) Nero who was already dead from Shiki's mind. Remember he takes on the form from anything within the person deepest mind, whether it be person, creatures, etc.

To bad it isn't know how he stopped the moon.

I'm going to need a bit more before I even believe that Zel makes this one-sided.

Join the TM side! ><

Unless he can mass port, it'll prove useless. What would stop Windy from porting them back if he can't?

Hell, even li'l Viki should be able to do that.

That is unknown. Iirc, I think he has open dimensional portal in one of the many different endings before with ease.

I can't say, I barely know what the Gate Rune can really do besides the massive readings on it. >< But it seems to be split into 2? I thought Viki could only teleport back and forth through time, and not space or dimensions.

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 05:41 AM

Course not. She forced CM to appear. ^^

So what's with this thousand year thing? I still don't understand what it is or does anyway.

That's true in a way... I was looking a different perspective, as he could kill them most slowly one by one and stuff.

But does he have the power? I only got the immortal side of him.

I suppose they are an external source... hmm, so it's debatable if he could copy duplicate the power. But that doesn't mean he is limited to just creating beings only within the immediate area. He did manifest/created (?) Nero who was already dead from Shiki's mind. Remember he takes on the form from anything within the person deepest mind, whether it be person, creatures, etc.

Which would depend on how much of a threat his creations are. And this is pure guesswork, as not many of what floats in the minds of alot of Suikoden is known.

Well, let's take a character as an example. If he took the form of anyone in Tir's mind, that could be either Odessa, Teo, Ted or Gremio. Does he take their powers completely? If so, neither of these characters would be a threat to Tir.

Join the TM side! ><

Eventually. Too many other stuff on my plate right now.

I can't say, I barely know what the Gate Rune can really do besides the massive readings on it. >< But it seems to be split into 2? I thought Viki could only teleport back and forth through time, and not space or dimensions.

One is lost and one is still present. But since there's no restriction, the lost one is present in this fight. Windy would be able to take anyone or anything from outside other planes. That's why any ported allies will simply be returned (even Leknaat, who doesn't specializes in the summoning aspect of the Gate brought Gremio from out of the World of Emptiness... and he was dead)

If Viki can teleport through time, wouldn't you think teleporting through space or dimension would be a cakewalk? (though technically, you can't teleport through space)

Besides, if I recall correctly, they already mentioned that Viki visited the WoE before. If she did do that, she can travel through dimensions.

Tuxx

09-14-2007, 06:20 AM

So what's with this thousand year thing? I still don't understand what it is or does anyway.

Oh that's because the crimson (red moon or w/e) only appear once every thousand year. She basically summon and use her powers to bring the future into current present, maintaining it. It's hella confusing. >_< CM is suppose to be dead... he is physical, but he is just like Wallachia, a phenomenal being. Appearing in a thousand year or so... or something. He's suppose to come and posses Arcueid or something and take over her. Anyways, she did that to turn Wallachia back to a normal vampire... as he made a contract with Altrouge, which granted him his current powers, until CM came back.

Which would depend on how much of a threat his creations are. And this is pure guesswork, as not many of what floats in the minds of alot of Suikoden is known.

Well, let's take a character as an example. If he took the form of anyone in Tir's mind, that could be either Odessa, Teo, Ted or Gremio. Does he take their powers completely? If so, neither of these characters would be a threat to Tir.

It's likely he chooses who he wants from their mind, the most favorable to the situation I suppose. Anyways, he's not on Nero's level of regeneration. But even Shiki's eye cannot kill him... so I don't know. >< Fear is his most basic weapon, fear which he creates entities out of. I guess he's more of an annoyance to most. :P

One is lost and one is still present. But since there's no restriction, the lost one is present in this fight. Windy would be able to take anyone or anything from outside other planes. That's why any ported allies will simply be returned.

If Viki can teleport through time, wouldn't you think teleporting through space or dimension would be a cakewalk? (though technically, you can't teleport through space)

Besides, if I recall correctly, they already mentioned that Viki visited the WoE before. If she did do that, she can travel through dimensions.

I see.

Well I always thought time and space as a separate thing, just parallel. If one ports back and forth to the future or past, than that is just an alternative possible timeline? All the settings in Suikoden takes place on one timeline I thought, only Viki seems to go back and forth showing up at different periods, getting lost. ^^ Bah, I so need brush up on my physics. ><

Keollyn

09-14-2007, 06:39 AM

Oh that's because the crimson (red moon or w/e) only appear once every thousand year. She basically summon and use her powers to bring the future into current present, maintaining it. It's hella confusing. >_< CM is suppose to be dead... he is physical, but he is just like Wallachia, a phenomenal being. Appearing in a thousand year or so... or something. He's suppose to come and posses Arcueid or something and take over her. Anyways, she did that to turn Wallachia back to a normal vampire... as he made a contract with Altrouge, which granted him his current powers, until CM came back.

Okay, I think I'm understanding it a bit better. So she sped up the process? Pretty impressive a feat.

The other stuff is a bit confusing, but with further reading of Tsuki, I should understand.

It's likely he chooses who he wants from their mind, the most favorable to the situation I suppose. Anyways, he's not on Nero's level of regeneration. But even Shiki's eye cannot kill him... so I don't know. >< Fear is his most basic weapon, fear which he creates entities out of. I guess he's more of an annoyance to most. :P

What I really wanted to know if whether these created beings take on the same power as the person, or are they much stronger/weaker?

Last thing. Can he do this on a massive scale? Or can he only target a few?

Well I always thought time and space as a separate thing, just parallel. If one ports back and forth to the future or past, than that is just an alternative possible timeline? All the settings in Suikoden takes place on one timeline I thought, only Viki seems to go back and forth showing up at different periods, getting lost. ^^ Bah, I so need brush up on my physics. ><

Well, even if that's the case, Viki still traveled through dimesions. Here's what i found

"When she bumped into Nash in a forest in Harmonia, she teleported him to an odd dimesion. There they meet a younger Viki who acted considerably more mature than Viki herself. She said that her name was Viki and told the other Viki and Nash how to get out of the odd dimension. Nash asked if she is Viki and she told him, "it's better to not know that...""

This happened in Suikogaiden. Perhaps the only game most Suikoden fans can't play. Maybe that's why I didn't know whether she could or not. But it appears she can (and what's the sweet thing, li'l Viki has better control over her powers)

Another question. How would the vamps from this series fair against the Night rune?

Tuxx

09-14-2007, 07:10 AM

What I really wanted to know if whether these created beings take on the same power as the person, or are they much stronger/weaker?

Last thing. Can he do this on a massive scale? Or can he only target a few?

Well Warcueid, that he took the form of, was 40% of the original from the original Arc. It said he takes on the most fearful fear and brings out the most powerful thoughts to surface. Arc is usually at always at 30% all the time pre-Tsukihime too fyi, so hard to say. Oh yeah xD he created mecha Hisui too, from her thoughts or fear of it?

I don't know about that... or if he can do it on a massive scale. I think he takes on the shape one at a time, while creates other fears freely. If he was fighting Shiki and Arc at the same time, then he would create/shape of two, to fight them. So you can say he can affect at least multiple people.

I still haven't gotten to play any of the games. :( Someday...someday...

This happened in Suikogaiden. Perhaps the only game most Suikoden fans can't play. Maybe that's why I didn't know whether she could or not. But it appears she can (and what's the sweet thing, li'l Viki has better control over her powers)

Another question. How would the vamps from this series fair against the Night rune?

Yeah. >< I only have read it, it's been awhile since I did. Aww DueFumi is down!? I haven't been there in awhile. x_x

Arc vs Sierra Mikain? I'd do anything to see that. >< But Sierra we barely know what she or the rune was truly capable off iirc >< So no idea. ^^